Advance Wars 2: Black Hole Rising Comments by Kristan Reed

I loved the original and love this one too - actually the campaign is now better and I like the new mission types, so I'm not even complaining about the horrid price I paid for the import.

Good review.

Anyway, an interesting question is why videogame journalists are so centered around demanding innovation and new stuff - in movie criticism etc. you rarely see people saying "it's just same old..."

Bad Razz.

I was looking for something to occupy me on the 'visit the family' travels at christmas, this looks perfect.

I guess the reason we do that is down to the high initial cost of a game. You don't mind seeing a generic more-of-the-same movie, as it's £8 and you're done.
Expecting people to pay much larger sums for the same experience isn't really acceptable IMO. No one would accept a £35 mission pack for any other game, so why should they just because it's a GBA? It's an insult as it is that GBA games cost so much as it is, without churning out a so-called sequel at the same high price.

gba games cost far too much these days.. especially since laods of them are just piss poor ports of snes games..

Good review there Kristan, and I like your marking. In comaprrison to AW1 as a stand alone game this is superior. But as it is there should have been a lot more than what was offered.
1 new unit? Which to be honest should have been in the first anyway? Please… come on…

I'm waiting for a possible C&C turn based stratagy on the GBA. What a game!

Funnily enough, I haven't bought a single gba game since the first Advance Wars. It does seem a bit of a cash-in, but then nobody complained about Vice City - surely that was just a mission pack.

So ... should I get this or Final Fantasy Tactics?

>ssuellid said
"Bad Razz.

I was looking for something to occupy me on the 'visit the family' travels at christmas, this looks perfect.
ignore poster "

What did I do wrong?

So if the next GBA still uses carts, how about each cart has a small slot in that an even smaller cart could go into, for mission packs?

Sometimes my genius astounds me ;)

/waits for flames/

Hmm... having lost hours of my life to the original, I was dreading this as much as I was looking forward to it...

Ultimately I don't feel it's worrth the asking price for owners of the original - yes there are new war room maps and a new campaign, but veterans will plough through these in a matter of hours and quickly unlock all the characters etc...

As a standalone game, it's worse than the original - no tutorial, and the new terrain types sit uneasily with the simplicity and balance of the core game

It's still fantastic, but redundant if you've played the original, and if you've played neither you owe it to yourself to snap up the first one immediately for a lesson in nigh-on perfect game design...

So - this is arguably the second-best game ever made, and I would strongly advise anyone against buying it, unless you really can't get enough of that AW stuff

> You don't mind seeing a generic more-of-the-same movie, as it's £8 and you're done.

I am actually giving serious consideration to this whole "cost" affair. It seems that there is scope for us to be pretty pissed off when our hobbies are taken advantage of by unscrupulous companies, be it games, movies, drinking wine, nice restaurants, or whatever. But I can also see the relevant company's point of view. I guess that is what reviews are for? Like I have said in previous threads, for various reasons a review site / magazine that you trust is like a public service.

Well, that answered my question before I asked it, Ralph. I was going to ask:

I don't have either, or a GBA. I'm getting a GBA soon. Which should I get?

First one it is, then. Plus loads of places are doing it for £20 now.

Plus I advise the chorizo and salami ciabatta, in case anyone wants to know what to get for lunch

The reason it's such a "cheap re-hash" is that the original was so good that anything after was going to be so similar.

If they'd've played about with it too much the essence of the game would have been killed off.

I got this on import when it was available and yeah, I was a wee bit disappointed with the lack of any real "update" but apart from new units there aren't many changes you can make. If you add too many units then it takes away the accessibility of it all. The only think I can come up with is a unit unique to each CO.

I still love playing it and the longevity is in excess of most games out there so the value-for-money is excellent - whether you own the original or not.

Just my two penneth.

best game I have played this year - by a long long way

> I was a wee bit disappointed with the lack of any real "update" but apart from new units there aren't many changes you can make.

Good point. I suppose this is the perfect instance of "if it ain't broke..." and we would have gone mental if they had changed so much that it was no longer the Advance Wars we know and love.

Sure, games over way more entertainment value than anything else *in theory* (i.e if you're a real hardcore gamer who plays them to death), but who's to say a hardcore film buff doesn't do the same thing and watch a DVD 20 times and all the extras? Films cost way more to make than games, yet the public's never asked to pay over the odds to watch them no matter how much the budget was.

The whole film/game argument is a can of worms and sometimes best left alone.
Suffice to say games would sell in much greater volumes and be far easier to recommend if they were priced in accordance with rival forms of home entertainment.

>Films cost way more to make than games, yet the public's never asked to pay over the odds to watch them no matter how much the budget was.

I agree with your can of worms comment. However, one key point here is about revenue streams. The vast majority of the lifetime sales for a game take place within 90 days of its release. After that its all budget labels, 3 for 2 promotions and so on. A film gets a cinema release, a DVD/Video rental release, DVD/Video sales, and then gets hawked around the world's TV stations on a pay-per-play licence. I reckon I have spent over £100 quid on the Lord of the Rings trilogy before the 3rd one is even out. And I doubt that I am alone.

Not saying that this justifies anything, but I know that no one is going into shops and picking up a new copy of Manic Miner because they like the classics.

str8g8, Vice City as a whole new city, new missions, new vehicles, new weapons, new character. The only similar thing, is the gameplay. The game itself focused arround it, is different (models, sounds, etc). This is not saying Vice City is different from GTA3. It's very similar. But you get a whole spinoff from GTA3 (different time)

For Advanced Wars 2 be comparable to GTA Vice City, they'd need to make it more futuristic, or a medieval strategy game, with all new graphics, even if with the same gameplay.

Thamuhacha, but that's not a valid argument against games. Why? I'll give you 2 examples (of the lords of self flatery themselves, Nintendo - yes I'm being cinical):
-Super Mario games for the GBA, which sell for full price, even if the original games are 10 year old, and being sold by 2 Euros
-Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time - Master Quest, bundled with Zelda the Windwaker


See? Games also have ways of profiting way over they are "shelf-dead"
Not to mention that people buy way more squels to games, than to movies (personally, I only have T2, and don't intend to have T3, and out of the wacky Tarantino triology, I only have Pulp Fiction, for example). On the other hand, I have 2 copies of Capcom VS SNK 2 (different consoles, slightly different options), and I have bazilion Capcom games which reuse the same old sprites over and over.
Examples are abundant, and games for a GameBoy which are 10 years old, hardly can justify the ultra heavy price tag.

>Super Mario games for the GBA, which sell for full price, even if the original games are 10 year old, and being sold by 2 Euros

I agree that the GBA has seen a change in this, and I am sure that the PSP will continue it. But not for many companies.

>Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time - Master Quest, bundled with Zelda the Windwaker

But not sold seperately. And not for extra money. Bad example I am afraid.

I only have T2, and don't intend to have T3

Did you see it in the cinema? If so, you bought into it.

On the other hand, I have 2 copies of Capcom VS SNK 2 (different consoles, slightly different options)

Wierdo :-)

>Examples are abundant, and games for a GameBoy which are 10 years old, hardly can justify the ultra heavy price tag.

My point is that this is down to an individual's choice. Old films sell for the same price as new DVDs and I have paid nearly £50 for a hard to get film I wanted. It's all about what you are prepared to pay for what you want.

And for many people, these games are brand new as they did not spend the 80's and 90's playing with NES games and so on like you and I obviously did.

I've got 1 & 2 and love them both - I would strongly recommend that anyone with a GBA buys both. Play #1 first to work through the tutorials etc, then follow up with #2 as it is certainly a tougher test in places. It's much the same, but boy what a 'same' that is!

I'm disappointed at the value for money comments - sure it's a 'mission pack', but the game is so damn good that it is still head and shoulders above almost anything else out there for the GBA. Surely it's the gameplay that counts and, even for people that have mashed the first one, this has it in droves.

I didn't see T3... I'll probably loose my time with it when it airs on TV, up until then, I'll just ignore it and stare at my T2 special edition metalic box :D

"My point is that this is down to an individual's choice. Old films sell for the same price as new DVDs and I have paid nearly £50 for a hard to get film I wanted. It's all about what you are prepared to pay for what you want.

And for many people, these games are brand new as they did not spend the 80's and 90's playing with NES games and so on like you and I obviously did. "
I don't know where you buy your films. Recent special editions or directors cut, usually get a recent film price, but a 5 year old DVD can be bough for less than 10 Euros. Casepoint -> In Fnac, both Matrix and Animatrix cost 10 Euros each. It doesn't matter that whomever buys the Matrix never saw the Matrix. Since it's an old movie, it's way cheaper.
Games on the other hand, keep getting more and more expensive, without no apparent reason other than enriching themselves. Specifically, I'm talking about Nintendo, which I think might be trying to comit the crime of price fixing for a 3rd time with the GBAs (no actual reason for such prices). In case you are wondering, Nintendo was already trialed and accused twice for Price fixing (during the Nes age, and during the N64 age). Both times found guilty. Look at Nintendo as a greedy little bastard that won't let go off the bone. A GameCube is cheaper than a GameBoy SP nowadays. I find this ridiculous.
You may ask why people don't buy GameCubes, but the awnser is obvious. Some (rd gen I believe) games when released here for the N64 costed nearly 100 Euros on official stores. Most of the games when they were new, costed 80 Euros. This was an obvious kick to the groin of the few who dared support Nintendo.

Look how people started buying GameCubes when they saw their money's worth? Nintendo still has a big way to go. They over-price their products due to no competition (GameBoys), but this creates a bad image of them. I talk for myself when I consider Nintendo to be the greadiest of them 3, followed closely by Sony. I don't feel a big costumer empathy from those 2 companies. If I TRY (keyword TRY, since it's a nightmare to contact Nintendo here) to contact Nintendo about their star catalogue, and some errors when inputing the numbers, they put me on hold for 2 hours. If I contact Microsoft on the other hand, because I can't install Live here in Portugal (notice, Live wasn't released in Portugal yet, and can't be officially used), they tell me how to get it working with a fake address.

On one hand, I have Nintendo who pisses to me after I bought their product. On the other hand, I have MS who helps me do something I wasn't supposed to do (use Live out of official countries). Is the world going crazy? And yet people seem to find Nintendo friendly and family like, and Microsoft the bad corporational evil.

I buy my DVDs online. The old films tend to be the same price as the new ones because I buy special eds of old films I suppose. Even if there is a difference it is a few £/€ only.

You customer support stuff is a different story - I also think that Nintendo are awful at supporting their fans.

But that's the whole point isn't it? We are costumers. We want good products, with good costumer service. Bad costumer service shows the consideration they have for us, costumers, once we've already payed for their products. I mean, I feel Ed. Fries really cares for the games, and feels some personal empathy. Nintendo doesn't have such personalities. They only have well known developers (Miyamoto)

"It doesn't surprise me then that the sequel leaves the gameplay mechanics mostly unchanged. Having devised a truly outstanding formula, tampering was only ever likely to break it, rather than improve. So, 'more of the same' in this case means 'more of the same excellence' which is no bad thing.

Labelling this as an expensive 'mission pack' is therefore a bit harsh. There is, as Kristan points out, a much wider range of objectives in the sequel."

You miss the whole point. They reuse the same old media - same visuals, same audio. The new aditions are 1 new vehicle. There is no problem in not changing the basic gameplay and mechanics, but at least change units, graphics etc. That's why he calls it an expansion pack. Red Alert 2 has all new units and buildings not ever seen before (all of them, at least have new graphics). Red Alert 2 Yuris Revenge, features the same units from RA2, but hads some more units. Ence it's an expansion.

I'd love to see a Medieval Wars, with medieval units, and that would be like a new game. The way it is, it really feels like an expansion pack. Almost no new graphics or sounds. All they did was make 1 new unit (which design is arguably poorer compared to the others), and new missions and maps. They reused all the old graphics and animations and sounds.

The thing is, AW2 HAS messed with the gameplay mechanic, with the introduction of the special terrai types, fixed weapons and buildings

In an effort to introduce a little more variety, they've severely compromised the balance and consistency, not to mention the aesthetic appeal of the original...

AW's graphics have always been symbolic - ie a city is depicted by a little city-block icon that takes up one square. But the new terrain types are graphic representations, and as such a giant 3x3 gun turret looks horribly out of place along side the stylised buildings...

And the way the cannons and missiles work in-game is gimmicky...

Fog of War STILL doesn't apply to the enemy AI which is UTTERLY unforgiveable

Some of AW 2's missions are brilliantly designed, and if you're a fanatic like me, the sequel has been an essential purchase, and still provided me with many hours gameplay. But I must have notched up, ooh, 300 hours on the first game? It hadn't been removed from my GBA in about 15 months...

For a true sequel I would rather have seen - brand new unit types, such as infantry with sniper rifles or mortars, maybe introduced melee combat, or features Mechs or units unique to each army. Perhaps a complete re-skin, ie a medeival/sci-fi/fantasy setting...

It's still a great, great game, but a real wasted opportunity

Not for me; I finished the first one twice, but I still have things to explore, besides, I want to get the highest level, maybe I unlock something.
Frankly, I don't like the pipes!

congratulations for adding that second score.

if i'd never seen/played Advance Wars i'd be singing the praises of the sequel, but having completed the original i felt cheated to find out Advance Wars 2 is identical, with a couple of rehash's (not always to improve things either may i add)

:P bastards

how can it be a rehash if the original was so good?

Well, i suspect after the success of the original game nintendo told the developer to churn out another ASAP, my feelings are the design team had run out of new ideas by this point - so they added a couple of minor features/units, changed the menu layout (for the worse) and then sold it for full price.

it doesn't even contain enough new content to be considered an add-on, let alone a full game. sure it has all new missions but only a few offer any objectives the original didnt at some point.

I've got the original but never got round to finishing it so problem solved. My money is safe to live another day.

Advance Wars is one of my favourite games of all time and deserves to be part of any gamers collection, period.
£35 for a bunch of different maps, 1 new unit amd the chance to play as the other CO's (which you can unlock in the original anyway) reeks of lazyness and is a cynical cash in imho - the publishers/developers know that x-thousand people are going to go out and buy this game anyway. That said, it *is* one of the most perfectly balanced games ever made. I've still got a load of maps to unlock on the original and levels where I haven't an S rank, although I have completed the campaign on advance setting.

/buffs nails

If I had £35 burning a hole in my pocket and I didn't own either cart, i'd go for the first one and spend the other £15 on a pint of large and a pub lunch followed by an £8 movie at the local cinema.

Done and done!

This is perfect, the orange star COs are crap and so it is a welcome change being able to use other COs (kanbei and eagle) Unfortunatly you cannot go as sturm :(

I got a question to ask. Over here in the U.S, obviously the price is way cheaper compared to the U.K version of Advance War 2 because intelligent system probably have to implement the french and german or whatever language that best suits the european population. So my question is what would you buy if Advance War is 19 dollars and Advance war II is 23 dollars. I want at least one AWs in my collection. Which version would be the best bet if you don't care whether they have the tutorial or not.

Nevermind, I got both used for a total of 30 dollars.