Publishers to fine 25,000 game pirates Comments by Robert Purchese

@Vice_destroyer

Yes - in criminal it is the maxim - innocent until proven guilty - otherwise known as the Woolmington principle or Golden Thread - "it is sufficient for him to raise a doubt as to his guilt; he is not bound to satisfy the jury of his innocence."

Therefore in a criminal case the charging standard is beyond reasonable doubt - where "innocence is possible but not in the least probable".

In a civil cases it is on the balance of probability i.e. over 50% (arguably it rises with penal consequence due to increased scrutiny of argument).

Anyone with a wireless router who flat out refutes all claims has probably got a strong chance of aquittal - which is most users these days - clearly it has to be borne in mind that it is all but impossible for the accused to disprove the accusation.

I haven't read the transcribe of the Pinball case yet - but no doubt the figure would include some form of estimated profit loss - so I assume she unwittingly became a mass distributor of the file to incur the £6,000 or so claim in damages.

Pirates have been "killing the pc games industry" ever since there was one. Piracy was rife on Amiga etc. Its always the makers of bad games that moan most loudly about pirates, its easier to blame someone else than yourself when sales are low.
Pirates will always be around, I expect pretty much everyone here has pirated at some point in their lives, wether its an mp3, an amiga game in their youth, a rom for a retro console, but we end up buying games in the end.

@skillian, I know, that was part of my point. Some of my work is out there under GPL or BSD licenses.

@Vice.Destroyer - IP addresses are trivial to forge. Two-way traffic to an IP is harder, as you'd actually need to persuade the network to route to you, or be directly inserting packets in between the host you're fooling and the rest of the 'net. It wouldn't be hard for a lawyer to bring into question the reliability of the recording systems, whether they can be tampered with, whether someone at the ISP maybe didn't like you, and basically tear any resemblence of proof out of the situation.

Encrypted traffic might enable them to make a case, if they could find matching keys on your computer, but in most of these cases they can't get your computer to use it as evidence, so no case.

@playgen, and look where the Amiga games market is now :-D

Seriously though, y'know I could have sworn there was a lot more games being released back then, irrespective of platform, but maybe I'm being nostalgic...

Malixu

I am sure there was less games - but less formats - so every game out came out on the Amiga just about - plus no doubt years ago (like the rest of us) you had far more time to partake in our hobby.

I expect pretty much everyone here has pirated at some point in their lives, wether its an mp3, an amiga game in their youth, a rom for a retro console, but we end up buying games in the end.

There are long threads on the EG forums where loads people are pirating TV shows every week. I assume it's because that isn't "their industry" that none of the moral indignation is expressed there.

It would have been cheaper for them to get caught shop lifting. That actually is a criminal offence and you can be put in jail for it (rarely).

What i don't understand is why do companies believe that everyone who has a pirated copy of a game would have paid to play it?

For example the woman who was sued, would she really have gone and paid for the game if it had not been available to download on a P2P network?

I can't believe the huge difference between this type of civil offence (the punishment being 16k, cost of game £16) when you compare it to some one stealing a car value of car £50k punishment for stealing it ??? but i doubt very much it would be £5 million.

Bloody liberty our privacy is compromised for the possibility of a few quid. Lost sales blah blah blah. Companies don't get money for 2nd hand games is that piracy as well?

I think if the stamping all over our privacy did actually encourage people who download to buy they would hit that market before buying new so it would do nothing to their sales.

Rethink how you sell games and the price you charge for them, the only way you'll really see more money.

@Badboybonner & Malixu

Thanks for your answers. So, wireless routers are a silver bullet against a piracy charge? Or the suggestion that somebody at an ISP hates your guts so much that they would plant digital evidence against you in your ISP log?

I take it then that these letters that are being sent out rely on people's ignorance to their right to challenge their accusers in court? Am I understanding that right?

Vice.D

It is basically tabloid scaremongering. The big difference is between downloading for personal use and uploading for many users.

Although I feel it is a little short-sighted, IMO the only people who are likely to profit and benefit from this latest scaremongering coverage are the car boot specialists - where purchasers and users are virtually invisible - which ultimately would put money back into organised crime - which is surely the greater evil of the two at hand?

All the things we have talked of are not a silver bullet - simply pointing out that justice has to lean towards protecting the innocent to prevent injustice, as opposed to happily prosecuting on questionable evidence.

There is always someone moaning - printing press destroying hand written text, photocopier destroying the printing industry, tape destroying vinyl sales, tape-to-tape destroying the games and music industry, video destroying the cinema, cd-writers destroying the music industry, then Mp3 destroying the music industry, dvd writers destroying the dvd and games market, electronic distribution destroying retail etc etc etc - ad nauseam.

Times change - and those that don't seem to moan the most - mainly those that have become rich from something becoming outdated yet they still want to be even richer before they die and change to dust.

It's not just scaremongering though, is it? It's actually happening and there are at least 500 people who are going to have to answer these charges, with probably alot more to come.

I hear what you are saying about the bigger picture. Piracy is inevitable. The question is, how does the industry want it to exist. In a forum where a black economy can flourish, or in an instance that can potentially kill smaller publishers. I don't have any answers. But thanks for explaining your point of view to a luddite.

Reflexive did a study with one of their own games and found that just 1 in 1000 people bought the game if they couldn't pirate it.

I assume you're talking about this: click.

Unfortunately, Gamasutra seems to be down at the moment, but from what I remember, it doesn't mention the 1:1000 ratio at all. It does mention, however, that 90% or something of the people who played the game played a downloaded version.

"I think this is great. "
your a sycophant or a liar.

No. I just think it's a good idea, nothing complicated.

"But I don't and I'm tired of funding their games collections. "
you don't

If I didn't buy games, no-one would develop them, therefore I'm funding their games collections.

"If it's easy, people will do it, it's human nature."
no its capitalism

This has fuck all to do with capitalism, it's envy and theft. Goes back to the stone age.

"as well as really hurting PC gaming."
it only hurts poor quality overpriced games.

This is clearly a lie, it hurts every game since it is taking money out of the development cycle.

"I think the guy who said he'd brought the game sounded a little too worried, my guess is he may not have copied that game but perhaps copied other stuff. "
in the UK you have the right to make back ups of digital media.

What the fuck does that have to do with piracy?

"and everyone that plays games is paying more."
simply not true its basic economics called equilbruim of demand, most people lack either the means or inclination to buy, the only real downside for a developer is if the game is bad it will get bad word of mouth and you can't buy off pirates like gamespot employees.

What are you on about ballbag? Every person that owns a console has the money to buy games. If they could afford to buy the machine, they have expendable income. Pirates copy stuff because they can, because they would rather spend the money elsewhere. Gaming is not the preserve of the rich; you can buy a gamecube and a few decent games for about thirty quid. If you can't afford that, get a better job. If you can't get a better job I'm real sorry.

But you can't get a free car or a free house, so why get free games? My guess is if you have a hankering for a new title you'll work harder to buy it. Don't give me bollocks about people on the breadline because the vast majority of pirates are just pricks who want something for nothing. Getting free games is an insult to honest people who work hard to pay for their stuff.

"to think that savings will be instantly passed on to consumers"
there arent any savings and even if there were you never see the benefits


You keep waffling shite about economics. It's this simple. Piracy takes money out of the gaming cycle, either consumers get charged more or developers have less money to spend on making their game better. If you ended piracy tonight do you honestly think pirates would stop gaming? Would they shite. They would just have a few less nights out a month or take longer to pay off their mortage. Schoolkids would have to get Summer jobs, they'd have to wait until games game out in the budget range. The money would go back into the cycle and everyone gets richer - either because developers charge less for games or because they have increased budgets to make better games.

They do this not because they want to - I'm no idealist, but because if they don't then their competitors will and they'll be out of pocket. A bunch of fat middle men don't just just say 'Cheers nobbers, I'm off to buy a new car.' If you reinject the money that pirates take out of the cycle it has to go somewhere, and at least some of that will come back to the consumer. That's not economics, that's just common sense.

PEOPLE OF THE WORLD UNITE YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT YOUR CHAINS

I'm hoping this whole post is a windup. And I'm thinking it must be. You sound like some social rebel, and if you're robbing banks to fund your revolutionary army, copying games whilst snorting coke off society kids who you've attracted to your movement, then fair one. At least you've got panache.

But you're probably not. You're probably some stroker that doesn't even have the stones to nick penny sweets from the newsagents. You pirate because you can sit there anonymously in your room pretending you're getting one over on society whilst you're watching Fight Club for the thirteenth time and hoping that one day your Helana Bonham Carter will come. And because you're too fucking stupid to realise that theft is theft, so you try and wrap it up in some complicated argument. And because you can spend the savings on Che Guevara T-shirts and Bob Marley prints from HMV. In reality you're costing everyone else who works hard and pays for stuff. If you couldn't pirate, you'd just look in the budget bins like everyone else and have a smaller games collection

And if you're going to talk shit about gauleiter and Orwellian (had to wikipedia the former, at least you've taught me something) then learn some basic grammar and spelling, otherwise you look like some fuckwit using big words to cover up basic inadequacies. Which pretty much sums up your argument.

I think this is great and is definately what the industry needs to do.

I have no problems with these people getting a letter through the door or having to pay £300, hopefully it will stop them from doing it in the future. Its simple if you dont want to pay for something, then dont bloody use it/download it.

What really gets on my nerves though is that if you make some software, and then you find its being pirated these peer networks are where its linked, its not easy to get it removed, and they claim its not their problem (as they are not hosting it). These download sites need to be punished as well imho.

Anyway... looking forward to seeing more of this in the coming months.

"No. I just think it's a good idea, nothing complicated. "
sorry i'll put in words your understand YOUR A FANBOY? why do multi million dollar corporations need you defend them? do you think the like you?

"If I didn't buy games, no-one would develop them, therefore I'm funding their games collections."
really so its solely your purchasing of games that decide what gets developed? thats one ego you've got there? but i guess in your dement world it is true, pity its not true in the real world.

"This has fuck all to do with capitalism, it's envy and theft. Goes back to the stone age. "
not really people tended towards co-operation in the early epochs of human history, and it really is capitalism, theres this wonderful subject called economics try studying it.

"This is clearly a lie, it hurts every game since it is taking money out of the development cycle."
first privacy doesn't factor into the equation, as there not sales that would of been made, second evidence to the contrary clearly points to how moronic your argument is GOOD GAMES WILL SELL Galactic civilisations, Portal, Total War, its only those that try to sucker people in with flashy ads and non gameplay cinematics that suffer you know like EA are famous for?

What the fuck does that have to do with piracy?
ask yourself i can't tell you why you choose to bring something up can i.

"and everyone that plays games is paying more."
simply not true its basic economics called equilbruim of demand, most people lack either the means or inclination to buy, the only real downside for a developer is if the game is bad it will get bad word of mouth and you can't buy off pirates like gamespot employees.

"Every person that owns a console has the money to buy games."
this is about PC piracy or did you miss that in the story?

If they could afford to buy the machine, they have expendable income.
maybe they could last year or the year before, you know before the big banks and super rich accidently tanked the westernly through their stupidity in pursuit of their greed.

" Pirates copy stuff because they can, because they would rather spend the money elsewhere. "
what like on food and energy bill or the doubling of tax the british government implemented on the poor?

"Gaming is not the preserve of the rich;"
must be nice to be so horrible middle class, no doubt one of you're forebear fought it was a good idea to send working class men walking slowly at machine guns, so naive.

you can buy a gamecube and a few decent games for about thirty quid.
the gamecube had good games?

"If you can't afford that, get a better job. If you can't get a better job I'm real sorry. "
what if you had a job but lost thanks to goose stepping morons such as your self tanking the economy and now have to depend on the pitance that is state support, but your children still under peer pressure from the rich kids such as yourself who parents independently wealthy, capitalism breeds inequality pirates are just exercising a bit or pro active wealth re distribution.

But you can't get a free car or a free house, so why get free games?
well there free public transport and free housing (council housing), i guess your ignorance fails you yet again.

"My guess is if you have a hankering for a new title you'll work harder to buy it."
hankering, i'm sorry are they a southern general, you really are a moron

"Don't give me bollocks about people on the breadline because the vast majority of pirates are just pricks who want something for nothing."
you sound bitter, well since the majority of pirates live in the 3rd world i'm guessing their alot poorer than you mr fancypants, but your "friends" are they all pricks?

"Getting free games is an insult to honest people who work hard to pay for their stuff. "
are and here it is the crux of it the personal annoyance, that sense that so grave injustice has been visited upon you, oh its all so unfair, they don't doing anything but erroding your middle class advantage as for working hard don't make me laugh the middle class don't know the meaning of the word.

"You keep waffling shite about economics. It's this simple. Piracy takes money out of the gaming cycle,"
no it doesn't nothing has actually been lost

either consumers get charged more or developers have less money to spend on making their game better.
no they don't see what your doing is simply copy and pasting the argument against shop lifting, and its one the industry wants to continue perpetrating, so I'm going to set you straight, when so steals something from a shop that unit of stock that been produced and costed into inventory so that a loss to the operator, which they either recoup by raising prices or absorbing. now when a game is pirated no such loss is incurred. now companies will complain about the loss of potential sales but stupid to assume that ever game that some downloads they would be inclined to buy, and the research backs this up.

"if you ended piracy tonight do you honestly think pirates would stop gaming? Would they shite. They would just have a few less nights out a month or take longer to pay off their mortage."
lol, let me take a moment for that to sink in, i love you man your such a epic fool that its funny. you think people are going to prioritise their games hobby over their mortgage? are you actually insane? you never had a wife/girlfriend have you.

"Schoolkids would have to get Summer jobs, they'd have to wait until games game out in the budget range."
yes while the middle class children get to enjoy the sunshine and their childhoods in general, lets send the poor ones to workhouse or down pit, or up chimneys! especially during a recession when unemployment is soon to hit 2 million! lets add competition to the already employer biased job market, especially competition that can work for less than minimium wage.

"The money would go back into the cycle and everyone gets richer"
it would cause any real change in sales, most pirates already buy good games and pirate others, so the opportunity cost would see these games still get bought, and most hardcore pirates would never buy anyway as it either a political stand, or about the challenge of beating the protection. as for into the "cycle" even if your fanciful fairytale magical occured, those vast profits you seem to be imagining would go to the shareholders of the retailers and the publishers and how much more money do you think those guys need.

"either because developers charge less for games"
developers don't set prices publishers and retailers do, and theres nothing stopping them charging less now, in fact if they did that probably be the most effective way to combat piracy

"or because they have increased budgets to make better games."
budgets not make better games, creativity and talent do.

"They do this not because they want to - I'm no idealist, but because if they don't then their competitors will and they'll be out of pocket."
what competitors? the multi billion dollar behemoth EA, Blizzard Activision, Sega?

"A bunch of fat middle men don't just just say 'Cheers nobbers, I'm off to buy a new car.'"
you mean the executives of northern rock that still gave themselves multimillion pound bonuses, Enron or MG Rover?

"If you reinject the money that pirates take out of the cycle"
what are they taking out? you can't take out things that have never been part of the "cycle" stuff that exist in potentia can't be part of anything BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXISTS, so on a purely semantics grounds at you should say the Potentials sales they could add in to your cycle

"it has to go somewhere, and at least some of that will come back to the consumer."
no it won't, he's an object lesson, oil companies have made record multi billion dollar profits over the past few years, yet prices at the pumps continue to rise. here's another since privatisation the railways in the UK trains are now slowly less like to be on time and less safe than they were during the age of steam, while prices have gone up above inflation, you know where the money went in both cases? the companies profits.

That's not economics, that's just common sense.
lol, Genetically, paedophiles have more genes in common with crabs than they do with you and me. Now that is scientific fact. There's no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact."

PEOPLE OF THE WORLD UNITE YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT YOUR CHAINS

" You sound like some social rebel, and if you're robbing banks to fund your revolutionary army, copying games whilst snorting coke off society kids who you've attracted to your movement, then fair one. At least you've got panache."
thanks buddy i do all it while wearing a guy fawkes mask and listening to the smiths

"But you're probably not. You're probably some stroker "
a stroker? is'nt that a gay porn term? not that i'd know of course.

"that doesn't even have the stones to nick penny sweets from the newsagents."
I like mr Assud he's a nice guy, but as i pointed out shoplifting involves actual lose piracy doesnt, also stealing from a small owner operated business is far worse than from a corporation as that someones actual livelyhood, whereas the abhorrent mess that corporations have propogated into are all goal and no soul and that goal is maximise profit, minimise costs.

"You pirate because you can sit there anonymously in your room pretending you're getting one over on society whilst"
i don't pirate, and i get one over on society by help defeat government legislation, oh and murdering policemen

"you're watching Fight Club for the thirteenth time"
fight club's a good movie

"hoping that one day your Helana Bonham Carter will come. "
how do you know i'm not tim burton

"And because you're too fucking stupid to realise that theft is theft,"
as i have several times tried to pierce the blinders of zealotry, its not theft as no actually lose has taken place, if some had highjacked a truck of games (as happened with burnout 3 several xmas ago) thats theft this isn't thats why there in civil court not criminal i really don't know how to make it any simpler for you.

"so you try and wrap it up in some complicated argument."
i guess they must appear complicated to someone like you

And because you can spend the savings on Che Guevara T-shirts and Bob Marley prints from HMV.
really i mean i can have more money to spend on things! just like the middle classes?

In reality you're costing everyone else who works hard and pays for stuff.
Me Personally? but how? and since the poorest work the hardest, how am costing them?

If you couldn't pirate,
i dont

you'd just look in the budget bins like everyone else
nah most games nowadays are crap

and have a smaller games collection
nah i already have a massive gaming collection from my uni days and the benefits of buying at cost.

And if you're going to talk shit about gauleiter and Orwellian (had to wikipedia the former, at least you've taught me something)
well at least thats something.

then learn some basic grammar and spelling,
oh i know it

otherwise you look like some fuckwit using big words to cover up basic inadequacies. Which pretty much sums up your argument.
well at least i have the big words, unlike you.

I can't be arsed with you. Your fundamental argument is that piracy doesn't cost anyone anything, and that pirates wouldn't buy games if piracy was stopped. If you honestly think that, good luck to you.

'most pirates already buy good games'
And I'm naive?

If you really went to university it fucking terrifies me. You've got some class obsession and massive chip on your shoulder that has squat to do with piracy. You can't string an argument together, you ramble and you seem to have a worldview that has dick to do with reality. And you spell and punctuate like old people fuck, so maybe you should have been working on that whilst you were building up your games collection at Uni. Or is that middle class of me?

Seems to me that my having a work ethic and thinking that if you work hard then you can go out and buy stuff makes me into a pantomime villain. I honestly thought your first post was a joke, now I realise you're just some deluded muppet who doesn't know his arse from his elbow.

I'm pretty sure valve sorted this issue out about 3 years ago.

I buy games sometimes, when they look half decent.

Usually though I just download them from somewhere or other. Music as well, paying for music is so over-rated. I use the money I saved to buy booze and fags. It's good for the soul.

If you've got some kind of problem with that, good. You're probably a massive wanker as it is.

"I can't be arsed with you. Your fundamental argument is that piracy doesn't cost anyone anything, and that pirates wouldn't buy games if piracy was stopped. If you honestly think that, good luck to you. "
its called economics, and as an object lesson look at galatic civilisation 2 which has no copy protection what so ever so anyone can pirate it, yet its sold massively

"And I'm naive?"
yes you are you've proven this o so many times

"If you really went to university it fucking terrifies me. "
probably does, the idea of the working class at university, its absolutely ghastly

"You've got some class obsession and massive chip on your shoulder that has squat to do with piracy."
your right has to do with your very middle class attitude

"You can't string an argument together,"
really? i've effectively countered all yours though

"you ramble"
lots of words doesn't equal rambling, or do you not read books because their all to rambly? silly question of course you don't

"and you seem to have a worldview that has dick to do with reality."
yet i've backed it up evidence and logic whereas you rely on this magical "cycle" out interest to worship this cycle? or just the publishers.


"And you spell and punctuate like old people fuck,"
do you regularly watch the elderly having intercouse?

"so maybe you should have been working on that whilst you were building up your games collection at Uni. Or is that middle class of me?"
wouldn't of helped being dyspraxic dyslexic, so yes it is typical middle class of you.

"Seems to me that my having a work ethic"
i don't you have a "work ethic" when you've worked your first 16 hour day of manual labour you might.

"and thinking that if you work hard"
you don't work hard

"then you can go out and buy stuff "
must be nice not to worry about rising food and fuel bills and not having your tax doubled to pay for a tax cut for rich.

"makes me into a pantomime villain."
your stupidity makes you a pantomime villain, you lack of compassion makes you a villain.

"I honestly thought your first post was a joke,"
it was i was mocking you, don't worry we expecting you to be in on it, we were laughing at you, the sycophantic fanboy that you are.

" now I realise you're just some deluded muppet who doesn't know his arse from his elbow."
yet i smarter than so what does that say about you

This is not a new happening to anyone who's into anime - this sort of crap has been happening for several years. The result? One or two big anime importing businesses in the US gone, mostly due to bureacracy and stubbornness rather than piracy, others growing to fill their shoes, audiences who grow to hate the legitimate firms more and more for this behaviour.

For both anime and games, there's nothing to legally prove any given person is the one doing the downloading, this sort of case cannot stand up in court - and with good reason - so this is purely a combination of a cash machine and a publicity stunt.

With all this going on, for both anime and games, there's just as much downloading, the interest in (and market for) the subject is still growing, the product is still overpriced and the industry is still unwilling to listen to their customers, mostly because they are interested in the short term buck, rather than giving people what they actually want, so that they go away happy and satisfied and come back for more. If you concentrate on the customer, not the shareholders, you'll get better results. Customers are the ones you need to please in order to please the shareholders, not the other way round.

Nuggets that say pirates only buy games they can't afford making no difference to profits are full of shite , if pirates couldn't copy they would just have small gaming collections and have to save money elsewhere to pay for them. Again, this selection would drive competition in the marketplace raising standards.

This ignorant attitude in particular pisses me off. Pirates wouldn't be pirates if they couldn't copy - they'd just not play games. I've spent hundreds on games entirely because I was first interested in the hobby by piracy. The lack of a sale is not a lost sale - that's not shite, it's basic fact. What's more, a person who's downloaded a game and liked it is more likely to buy it - My friends and I got and passed round a copy of Flashpoint from the 'net (when it was new, that is) and loved it so much we all went and bought legit copies at the same time and spent a week-long LAN party playing them; 6 X £34.99 = £209.95 of sales right there as a direct result of piracy. Games companies should be courting these people, not fining them.

Gaming is more successful and lucrative than ever before. How are pirates harming the industry? A few studios go out of business now and then - because their games aren't worth what they want for them, not because of piracy. Perhaps this surprises people, but sometimes firms go out of business and it's the fault of business practices, not some group of malevolent unethical out-group. Anyone here whining about pirates (not to mention the legal people behind this idiocy) better have never taped a friend's music or the radio or videoed something from the TV, or listened to or watched either of them, otherwise they're nothing but fucking hypocrites.

EDIT: and capt_jack_Doicy categorically wins, in all areas except readability.

Oh shit I got a letter. Time to go to court and play dumb.