Prince of Persia Comments by Ellie Gibson

@kangarootoo

Wow! I have no idea how you got Patronising from that!!

The preview makes a MASSIVE DEAL out of the accent and hence my comment about it not being problematic when considering the previous trilogy.

I have seen videos of the combat in action to convince me it's at least as slow as the previous trilogy. Just because the combat system allows me to wait for a second until I can put a further control input doesnt mean I have to do it. Ellie is literally making the combat look like this SLOW MOTION trash. Since when was this a problem to begin with, even if it's REALLY slow ? The game is trying to distinguish itself from others. NOT all games have to be Ninja Gaidens

QTEs: go read what Ben Mattes said again, the tutorial teaches you what you're supposed to do in those kind of situations. I presume it's something similar to what Tomb Raider Underworld is doing with its QTEs. i.e. giving you time to see what you're supposed to and then you have to press the correct button to actually do it without having to wait and see what kind of button it is you need to press. In Tomb raider for example, time slows down to show you that a ledge is falling, hence press the jump button. in Prince of Persia for example, an upcoming sword attack which you can guard with the Gauntlet Button. Fend off a Corrupted attack hence press the Elika Button because she's the only one that doesnt die when touching the corruption ...etc I hope that clarifies what I meant.

@GhenghisNaan

I hear where you are coming from, but a little less patronising hyperbole might have been nice. QTEs turn up in games for all sorts of reasons, and it is usually a little more complex than experienced designers simply not being aware that "The key is to design games from a gameplay perspective, and for designers to understand what their designs actually mean for the development".

I'm not sure what you do for a living. Its hard to tell whether you work in the business or not, as some of your comments seem in the right direction. I am guessing that if you are a dev you aren't a designer, but someone who works with them and doesn't rate the discipline?

In my experience, daft QTE events rarely come from the design team. They usually originate from other sources that want the explosive drmatic visuals without any concern for how the player might actually be included in the fun. Maybe I've just been lucky in the people I've worked with.


Anyway, the basic thinking behind a QTE can be sound enough. I.e. "Train a player with familiar mechanics and give them challenges that these learned skills can be applied to, instead of testing them with an entirely new challenge that requires a unique solution every single moment". Its just that the mechanic QTE itself has problems in the way it is implemented most of the time.

QTEs almost always seen to give the player very little notice. One minute they are controlling the game using the controls they have taken time to learn, the next they are being presented with a reaction based challenge. Half the time I don't see the bloody things coming first time around.

Second up, far too often the failure penalty for QTEs is too harsh. Often the player is set back some, and has to repeat a previously successfully completed sequence of challenges (bad design in itself). Worst case, the player is killed with even more repetition to follow (bad checkpointing can combine with QTEs for a madddening combination).


"It takes balls and reckless arrogance to go against the grain, which is why most devs stick to safe formats and bandwagons because they're led by accountants who have neither balls nor any sense of adventure to actually allow anything new to be tried. Welcome to the corporate era of gaming."

What is also absolutely vital when "going against the grain", and which everyone always seems to forget when slagging off development, is experience and proper process and due diligence. Simply "having the balls to be different" without any of the knowledge and process to back it up usually results in highly original, low quality, unplayable rubbish.

In one sentence you complain of "lofty, irresponsible ideas", and in the next you complain of "accountants who have neither balls nor any sense of adventure to actually allow anything new to be tried".

It might surprise many to find out that making good games is pretty damn difficult. And a balance between originality and quality implementation has to be found. And its a different balance every single time. But then these things always look trivial to the armchair expert ;)

@alimokrane

Maybe I misread the mood of the text. In my mind it read as a parent patronising a child. If I was off the mark, I apologise.

Regards the implementation of QTEs in this case, I am holding judgement. As I said in my post above to GhenghisNaan, the principal behind QTEs can be sound enough. One of the issues of implementation you have raised that I missed is context. Am I essentially pressing the block button to block, or am I pressing a seemingly random series of buttons to pedal a bicycle around objects in my path?

I get your point, and tbh I probably went a bit harsh on you 'cos I thought you were being sexist with your opening address. Oops.

sounds like dragons lair to me

Well that preview was more negative than I was expecting! I did have very high hopes for this game.

While I'm a bit disappointed, I never base my purchasing decisions on a single preview. It may all come together in the end right? Consider my expectations lowered, but I'm still watching this one closely.

"It seems QTE's emerge when designers are allowed to go nuts, and want all this crazy stuff to happen, which the men at top find amazing and say "hell yes" to, and then when the programmers and artists and riggers turn around and say "you know it'll take FOREVER to do that"

It's not so much that it takes 'forever' as that it is impossible. There's no way to get the required user imput for the more elaborate action sequences. Some developers go for QTE, others go for cut scenes or canned special moves. TBH I don't care much about which method a developer chooses.

@kangarootoo

Hehe. No that was definately not my intention. /apologies to Ellie.

Regarding the QTEs, YES, that is exactly what I mean. It's not random button press, it's contextual just like the one in Tomb Raider Underworld.

@Les - I take your point about QTEs allowing for actions that are more elaborate then what is within the standard moveset of the character, but the fault with that thinking is that not only do you destroy any feelings of immersion (as would a pre-rendered cutscene), but as kangarootoo says, you also introduce a random set of controls that bare no relationship to what's immediately preceded it, thereby IMO doubling the feeling of being removed from the game.

"they unlearn to not mash the button"
Sounds like someone needs to investigate double negatives and the effect they have on the overall meaning of your sentence.

Spastic
adj Of, relating to, or characterized by spasms
n A person affected with spastic paralysis

Spastic has legitimate uses other than as a derogatory term. As pointed out above, in some parts of the world it may not have any negative connotations.

[/pedant]

@Arwin

Yes.

To be fair, I played 2 games with motion sensing in it (Ratchet and Uncharted) and in both games the response time wasn't that good to really implement rapid movements or last resort tactics.
Also, I wouldn't mind it so much if I didn't have to hold the controller perfectly straight when doing this, when on a couch it's always in a 45 degree angle, making me switch positions is really annoying. It just doesn't feel natural or immersive at all. But that's just my experience with those 2 games. Maybe I haven't played the right ones.

It was a little bit better in the LBp beta, but that was only a shake to let go of the jetpack, which wasn't always working right away either. I just don't think it's really working so I'd rather live without it than have a half assed attempt.

Referring to the QTEs I find it interesting that the initial proposal was to have the player divine the correct decision from the visuals etc. rather then a crude 'press this button' graphic; I found it interesting as it still reveals the linear mind-set still in play for QTEs.

Imagine instead the scenario where the enemy lifts a foot to crush you and the action slows down as you make a choice.

Sure you can take the obvious option of rolling out of the way at which point the action speeds back up and the foot comes down; but how about if you jumped instead - bad move on its own you get squished, but how about jumping then slashing upwards with your sword? The enemy reels back a little you land and then roll out of the way as before, same position but you've hurt them. Now how about instead of reacting instantly you wait as the foot descends and then just slash upwards with your sword? The enemy reels back, you roll out of the way and get a free attack as the enemy is still wrong-footed; it's a much more dangerous move but it leaves you in a stronger position.

You still get the cinematical approach with the same start and end positions without reducing the player to a moronic reactional robot and plays into the risk for reward that we all love.

Oh dear. I'm not too thrilled about slower pace. The combat I can deal with but to be honest, the voice acting may very well ruin the ENTIRE game for me. It's that important. However, one thing does sound promising, and it is this:

"There's a bit of business with the prince and Elika and a donkey."
Prince of Porno anyone?

I love QTE's >.< God of War, Shenmue and Yakuza QTE's are great fun! Even though the latter two are just Triangle presses, they are still fun to execute and watch.

@mingster
"I'm a bit upset about the very un-pc use of the word spastic in the review.
Very un-necessary."

You mean the use of the word spastic in a direct quote in the preview, surely?

As Frandroid pointed out spastic has legitimate uses other than as a derogatory term. Unfortunately, there is a growing tendency for people to seek offence in these matters. Perhaps people feel the need to prove how PC they are by attacking what they perceive as non-PC behaviour?

I think I first raised the question over the use of the term spastic. I certainly wasn't trying to prove anything to anyone (like I'd give a shit about such things).

I was simply raising an eyebrow over the use of a word, which it turns out had limited meaning in my vocabulary. Since then the thread has informed my vocabulary, so its no longer an issue for me.

"but the fault with that thinking is that not only do you destroy any feelings of immersion (as would a pre-rendered cutscene), but as kangarootoo says, you also introduce a random set of controls that bare no relationship to what's immediately preceded it, thereby IMO doubling the feeling of being removed from the game."

I don't agree with the immersion point TBH. I want games to be entertaining (as I want books, movies and other forms of entertainment) and I don't need to escape reality. I really don't see why a cut scene or QTE by definition should take away from immersion. At all times I'm playing a game I know I'm playing a game (like I would while reading a book). I know cut scenes can occur, I know QTE's can occur, I know mini games with completely different gameplay can occur as well as any other totally unrealistic situations and they don't bother me, as long as they're well executed.

I do agree that controls in QTEs should be aligned with the normal controls (so same button for jumping, slashing, etc.) and that penalties should not be too severe as they often come as a surprise the first time. QTEs in God of War for example were excellent IMO and Metal Gear's cut scenes really add to the power of story telling.

"The Prince and Elika must restore light to the mystical land of MotorStorm."
LOL

@Les

Seems we all agree that a fine balance has to be struck. If the balance is found, the results are at the very least tolerable (GoW). And if the balance is off, the results are a pain in the ass (Fahrenheit, for my money).

Perhaps a question to be asked, as you referred to powerful and entertaining cutscenes, might be "Is the player's direct involvement at all times a MUST HAVE rule?"

Should there be this middle ground between direct core mechanic and cutscene? As was mentioned earlier, QTEs seem to be there to fill the gap, where the dev wants player involvement but has presented them with a challenge they can not intuitively meet using the core controls. Should devs do this? Or should anything not covered by the core mechanics be either put in a non-interactive cutscene or removed?

I dunno, I'm just throwing our the question as we all seem to be getting on so well :)

I like QTEs.

I don't like the sound of the rest of it though. Slowing things down sounds like catering to the 'casual gamer' with a franchise that is/was inherently 'hardcore'. Why don't they concentrate on selling "Petz" to the casuals and giving us something a little bit challanging. Ninja Gaiden was already twice as fast as Sands of Time for God's sake.

What is the framerate?

"It's less familiar than you might think and by no means simple." HA! hahaha... oh that's not a joke. you do realise you can't die and it only lasts a few hours even though it's free roaming right... oh and it's on the assasins creed engine... so HA! hahaha.

I suppose it's unfair to pass judgement on the games slower pace until it is actually played at its peak performance. If this is the direction Ubi are going with it fair enough, the game will be built around and assist this slower pace of gameplay. This doesn't suggest the game is gonna be poor by any means, putting a game up against rivals based this factor seems rather pointless to me. With this pace I expect immense animation in both the free running aspect and combat, as well as the new strategic turn that is promised.
As long as the game remains entertaining I see no problem with the pacing, please do this right Ubi!

Well, tiddlywinks. So basically they've taken out pretty much all the charm and intelligence of the first game and amplified all the irritating crap from the second and third games. Plus it seems like it's going to be a "No, you're not doing it right, THIS is how you're supposed to be playing our game, impudent gamer" game. It's all made worse, of course, because Sands of Time is genuinely one of the best games ever made,wanting only for some improvements to the combat system--just a simple rock-paper-scissors system of light fast attack, slow heavy attack, guard-breaker and dodge/parry would make things better. Maybe like a slower, more mature God Hand but with weapons and time-manipulation. Sounds fun to me!

This, however, does not. Not at all. Big pass.

To developers: For goodness sake, if you're going to have a story in your games HIRE A BLOODY WRITER AND DECENT VOICE ACTORS.

Shame, from the preview this sounds like a massive cock-up. I was interested in this game for the beautful art style and perceived throwback to Sands of Time.

Shit script and voice-acting (helllo Assasins Creed), plus "you should play like we tell you to play" gameplay totally ruined my enthusiasm for this game.

Ubisoft will probably blame the failure at retail at the art style though...

@FlipC

"Imagine instead the scenario where the enemy lifts a foot to crush you and the action slows down as you make a choice."

I annoyingly missed your post first time around, I say annoyingly as your point above is a great one.

Maybe that is the core issue with QTEs. However they are dressed up, they are suddenly a removal of the choice that the player has enjoyed in the previous moments of the game. Even the decision to walk left or right, to punch or kick, is more choice than none. QTEs basically give you a choice between do or do not (as Yoda might say), with dire results if you choose the latter. Barely interactive some might say?

If choice remains, as you suggest, I guess that would just be a moment of slowmotion and people wouldn't refer to it as a QTE anymore. They could do what they liked and bear the consequences, instead of being told by the game exactly what to do even down to button they should press.

Interesting that Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain, games that are for presenting choice to the player, contain a lot of QTEs. The very mechanic that reduce choice down to one of tightly prescribed action or complete inaction.

hmm... this preview's left me a bit worried about this game

Farah also had an English accent in Sands of Time. That is why her return in the third felt so horrible.

The English accent felt regal and not, dare I say it, common muck.

"QTEs basically give you a choice between do or do not (as Yoda might say), with dire results if you choose the latter. Barely interactive some might say?"

It's still interactive: It responds to the player input. I don't really see choice as having any value in and of itself. Look at rhythm games for example: Your timing is either wrong or right. Furthermore, there are situations, both in real life and in gaming, where there's only one viable option. If the bridge you're walking on collapses, running a few paces and timing your jump perfectly might be the only way to escape death. What good would it do to give the player the option to run the other way, to walk, to crouch, do a somersault, etc. ?

Inherently games are restricted by the controls. It's up to designers to make optimal use of the available means for user input and this includes excluding user actions that simply don't make sense given the gameplay situation.

Mixed feelings for me. I like the sound of a slower, more thoughtful combat. But the voicing, spastic aids (sorry!) and QTEs sound horrible, and the platforming losing the gorgeous Sands of Time grace and flow would be a real mistake.

QTEs are popular because all devs seem to think that they're Quentin bl**dy Tarantino. FAIL!

@Les

I've been careful not to dismiss QTEs out of hand, and I agree that choice of itself is not inherrently valuable. I am just focussing on differences and raising questions :)


@3william56

Spastic is officially a safe word now... though your use of the words "aids" might blow up in our faces :)

@Les - Except the difference is that rhythm games are essentially one long QTE, that is the gameplay.

One of my dislikes regarding QTEs is the gorilla on the basketball court problem. Once a QTE is initiated the player becomes cued to respond to icons appearing on the screen, while doing so exactly how much of the on-screen action your reaction are prompting are you paying attention to?

I find this a most amusing dichotomy in that QTEs were created to allow the developers to show off a cinematical event without turning it into a cut-scene and in the process forced our focus away from the very thing they wanted us to sit and watch.

"but it's ruined the moment the characters open their mouths."

/ smacks Ellies ample bottom with hockey stick

@ FlipC

Good point. Maybe audio cues should replace flashing icons or something. I must say that in GoW it never really obstructed my viewing of the action but in Kingdom Hearts II (still one of the best games ever thanks to the awesome soundtrack) it did, even though you had to press only one button in the QTEs. Audio cues would have worked much better in that one.

@Les

But then you'd be discriminating against deaf players unless you add in the option for visual cues, and if you're having to put them in anyway why mess with a tried and tested formula?

As you say some games do it well and some do it badly, but in every case you're breaking the gameplay and reducing the choice of the player to a binary action - press this button or fail and all because the developer wants to play at being director; that's what cut-scenes are for.

Of course you'd see your character do something heroic such as jump off a cliff at the last second, grab and swing on a vine then land on the other side and think "Why couldn't I have controlled that?" hence QTEs. Word to developers if you need to have your character perform certain actions they wouldn't normally be able to and thus relegate them to cut-scene or a QTE then take a minute to think about the need of it again.

To put it another way - think of the rescue of the Oracle in God of War if it were reduced to a QTE or cut-scene.

Can't play anything outlined in black pen...reminds me of Red Steel

Everything in this article just made me want the game more.I was worried this would be an other mindless button-masher with endless combos to remember like in a fighting game. Now it will instead be a game with strategy in the fights. I like that a lot. And the wall-running thing sounds great. Pre-ordered and done deal for me atleast.

Or you could put it as joystiq did in their glowing hands on with the game:

Nothing about the game feels canned, in fact. From our time with it, it was nothing but fresh. Yes, it's Prince of Persia – but the idealized game you always have in mind when the title's spoken. A balance of strong platforming, mild puzzles, and, in this case, a new (and, so far, much better) combat system. Do not, whatever you do, sign and seal your list of 2008's best games just yet – if the full experience bears out what we played in a little over an hour, you'll need the space for what could be a series' return to form (and then some).

What's with all the jumping around?

Mirror's Edge

Tomb Raider: Underworld

and now this "painted" Prince of Persia

All very PRETTY..... pretty boring actually!!