POP dev expected "pats on the back" Comments by Robert Purchese

...but everyone is still waiting on Resident Evil 5....

Because some people want innovation and others want more of the same doesn't mean that POP is a good game. As for no-one knowing what "next-gen" means, Well maybe the developers should get a clue as to what "next-gen" means, it is their job after all.

It's quite simple, appeal to me and i give you money in exchange for the hours of entertainment. Don't and i won't.

Well I really enjoyed Mirror's Edge and Dead Space. I take my hat off to EA for making more of an effort this year than they have since Winter Games came out for the C64.

I'm sorry that their effort hasn't paid off, because it's going to be people like me, you know the people who don't put FIFA 09 and NFS in the charts, who suffer.

When the consensus is that POP sands of time had a better more engaging story (correcting your own mistake not someone elses). Better platforming i.e no hand holding, timing actually mattered and skills had to be learnt. A better sidekick i.e. you didn't control her and had no say in what she did or even how she did it as opposed to Elika who is quite litteraly just a selectable weapon in female clothing. The ending in sands actually had you do exactly what you would hae done in reality i.e. stop the whole mess from happening in the first place. In the new POP the ending is idiotic as you effectively undo everything and betray your companion in the worst way imaginable (not to mention what happens to the rest of the world as a result).

I gave the game a fair shake and the reality is that the only plus it really has is that it looks good.

Me too, El_Pollo, me too.
I've Dead Space and Red Alert 3 sat on my desk and they're the first EA games i've bought in a long while. Likely the last too if the go back to their old ways. I'm sorry but i can't afford to be buying games i'm not keen on just because the dev will cry if i don't.

Innovation? Honestly, when i was playing PoP, i was reminded of Dragon's Lair and Space Ace. It had zero innovation but it was all about going backwards instead. Never felt that bad in paying money for a game.

I haven't played the new PoP yet, but I hear agreeable things about it from some of my Friends List, and disagreeable things from others, but surely this is more of the problem, from Mattes:

"We talked a lot about it during development - multiple difficulty settings, etc. - but could not come up with a way to modify all aspects of the game - combat, acrobatics, trap difficulty - in a graceful and interesting way.".

Why not?

He is right though, people keep on moaning about the need for innovation but when push comes to shove they don't put money where their mouth is.

"Perhaps I'm an idealist, but I think perhaps I was expecting a few more virtual pats-on-the-back for our attempts to do something new."

Perhaps I'm an idiot, but I think perhaps I was expecting a good game, not that joyless piece of graphics-hype crap the new POP was.

"We talked a lot about it during development - multiple difficulty settings, etc. - but could not come up with a way to modify all aspects of the game - combat, acrobatics, trap difficulty - in a graceful and interesting way.".

For combat maybe make the enemies harder to kill? Give them faster reactions so they block more often? For trap difficulty - make them easier to trigger? Make them harder to avoid?
For accrobatics - the jumps should require skill anyway so it shouldn't make any difference to the accrobatics, apart from maybe allowing a larger area to land on in the lower difficulties.

I haven't played the game so I'm just assuming that the enemies can block, and I'm going off the EG review, and friend's coments, for the jumps being to easy, but that is the stupidest thing I've ever read.

Also, since when is collecting 1001 "light seeds" innovative? Fucking annoying - Yes Innovative- No

As much as I like the game, whoever thought the "trial and error dodging through the air via the power plates and a restart at the beginning of the sequence if you fail" was a fun idea needs a good slap, not a virtual pat on the back.

Simple rule of thumb: Is it fun? If it is, great. If it's not, then it shouldn't be in there!

Where did he say collecting light seeds was innovative?

Running and jumping? How derivative! Swords? So unoriginal. Using words to communicate? What is this, a book?

I think the art team deserve a pat on the back, that game is beautiful. However... in my opinion the kind of person who would give developers props for a game is not the same kind of person who this game's "new direction" seems to favor. I imagine a lot of people are silently enjoying POP in their living rooms while the hardcore audience who feel it was way too easy and bland gameplay-wise are speaking up.

They can have a pat on the back from me! I've loved every minute of it (very near the end). It is true that the difficulty is flat throughout and that is a problem. As I've said at great length in the forum thread, it basically suffers from the same issues people had with Assassin's Creed. Of course, I also loved that so, go figure!

New IP does not automatically = innovative.

New IP does not automatically = commercial success.

Innovation does not automatically = commercial success.

The entire point of making excellent, innovative games, is exactly that. To make excellent, innovative games. Not to make loadsa money. EA would rather pump out 50 shit titles a year and make a massive profit, than make 30 shit titles and 20 innovative ones and make a respectable profit (please forigve the black and white shit/innovative categorisation, it's for the purposes of the example only). They're a business and a very efficient one at that. But they need to take the long-term view and realise that without creativity the industry will stagnate and die.

You know, voice acting that didn't make me want to punch the television would have been a good start. What was wrong with the modest and endearing Prince from the Sands of Time/Warrior Within/Two Thrones? Or how about a voice that just sounded Persian rather than like some obnoxious cock from the San Fernando valley? Granted the art style was truly lovely - it's about time someone ripped off Okami and Ico.

Dead Space was enjoyable but not innovative (it was pretty much RE4 in space with some Silent Hill thrown in). Stupid cliched 'boo scare' ending, too.

WHAT FREAKIN' RISKS!?!?

Innovation should only be applied when it adds something to the fun factor of the game. Innovation in itself has no right of existence. A good game should just aspire to be a good game with innovation applied when it actually enhances the experience.

"Perhaps I'm an idealist, but I think perhaps I was expecting a few more virtual pats-on-the-back for our attempts to do something new."

No, just stupid. The video game press is conservatism incorporated. As long as your game isn't aimed at their conservative readership, there's nothing to worry about.

"Our job is to make games that our target audiences like. If the target audience DOESN'T like a game, the only reason its dev should be opening their mouth is to ask why, so they can hopefully find out what went wrong and how they can improve the sequel."

I suspect the core gamer (= video games journalist) wasn't the prime target with the latest PoP. I think it's perfectly OK to be annoyed or frustrated by the incompetence of the average video game journalist, because they, while rapidly losing importance for the market as a whole, still are the key to the hearts of the core gamers.

The developer is like the angry young boy / man : The angry boy (ubi) kicked at the world, but the world kicked back, ten times harder.

I think it's perfectly OK to be annoyed or frustrated by the incompetence of the average video game journalist, because they, while rapidly losing importance for the market as a whole, still are the key to the hearts of the core gamers.

Who cares for "importance for the market"? Except the publishers of course. It's a games journalist's duty to point out flaws of a game to their target audience, at least on a "core" gaming site.

well i am enjoying it at the moment so you get a pat on the back from me sir!!!

calm down, mr ubi guy, there has been alot of games out recently and I have a large backlog, also the sub par reviews from the journos means this is going to be budget material. It was never going to be a number one was it anyway. the point is they did try some new things, and most of it didnt work as it was dumbed down too much prior to release i hear.

This is the 5th in the Prince of Persia series

That's one less than Police Academy

wouldn't it be more innovative to come up with a new IP?

this guy Ben may well need to take a step back

Just having sometihng new doesn't automaticly make it good. You experiment, you try new things, that's good. But sometimes these things don't work out, don't be surprised to get called out on it.

Left 4 Dead is also a new IP, also a new kind of gameplay experience, also riksy in the sense that it only works in multiplayer. But it's allot of fun so it won allot praise.

PoP got flack for being repetative, don't try to deflect that by playing the "new ideas" card. You already tried that with Assasins Creed, you got critizised for it then too. So why fall into the same trap with the new PoP??

Ok. This is the harsh, cold truth. Maybe they set out to make somthing different and unique... but they failed.
The game sucks. Really, utterly sucks.
And I’ll tell you why.
First off, the graphics. The cell shaded style is great and the graphics are beautiful, but the whole world is, hm, generic fantasy. It doesn’t have the Arabian feel.
The level design. It doesn’t feel real. When you played the earlier PoP games you could IMAGINE you’re stumbling through ruined palace… here? Who the f*** build does places? Chain rings on the ceiling? Inverted pillars? Magic plates built when the city was at the peak of it’s glory, that help you circumnavigate the RUINED city, as if they were designed to do it in the first place? People used to live here? Give me a break. It’s a madman’s dream and an example of sloppy design.
We’re still at level design. The city feels empty. Devoid of… well, anything. Even the earlier PoP games were more alive.
And the levels themselves? Each and every district is the same old same old. You don’t really learn new moves, each level is just the same 4 or 5 tricks repeated ad nauseam.
We’re at repetition? So how about the game designers force you to play the section’s you’ve just finished AGAIN. So you can collect the light orbs (oh, and prolong a short game).
And it’s incredibly easy too. Almost everything you do is automated. What took a combination of 3 button pressed (times button presses I might add) in the old games, takes 1 reckless button press. It’s just not satisfying anymore.
Maybe combat than? Well no. It’s a glorified QTE. And you can’t die remember? So it’s just grinding and tedium, you know you’ll beat the enemy eventually, it might just take you long, pain-staking minutes of QTEs. And did I mention that you fight the same bosses 5 or 6 times?
Ok. We’re almost out of stuff. Story? There’s no story. Go fight 4 bad guys and then return to the temple to fight ahriman. Yes, there are the dialogues between the prince and elika, but they are just filler and fluff. There’s no progression and no change. You just move from one boss to the next. The talks prince and elika have with each other are meant to bring them closer together so you can understand the ending of the game (why the prince does what he does). But you know what? It doesn’t work. There was never that one turning point where you see they really fall for each other. I blame the openness of the story/gameplay (you can tackle each of the similar levels in any order you’d like!), which doesn’t add that much to the whole experience.
That do we have left? Oh, the voices and music. The Prince sounds like a typical boys band member (cheese, out-of-place-in-an-arabian-setiing lines included), Elika is, well, ok. And the music is okeyish too.
There you have it.

Sorry for double-posting but it cut the beginning of my msg.

I think if thid game had been a new IP and not carried the high expectations of POP, it would have got much better reviews, Personally I loved it. It was only meant to be a game to get me though to Christmas so I wasnt expecting much of it. It turned out to be one of the best games of the year in my opinion. It may be because I havent played sands of yime. Or maybe because I wasnt looking for much of challenge, so i could just enjoy it.

@penhalion The ending in sands actually had you do exactly what you would hae done in reality i.e. stop the whole mess from happening in the first place. In the new POP the ending is idiotic as you effectively undo everything and betray your companion in the worst way imaginable (not to mention what happens to the rest of the world as a result).

:(

:((

Please, pleeease put spoilers there next time? :(((


As to the issue discussed here, I'd have to concur with the main thought here, that innovation has to lead to making the product better. In games case, it means the game has to be more fun. What "fun" means differs from genre to genre I guess, but innovating in one area and leaving gaping holes in the others (Repetition again? Have they learnt nothing from Ass Creed?) isn't cutting it. Applause in this industry comes for making a fun game, not innovation for innovations sake.

I didn't play the game yet but I plan to (hence my QQ at penhalion's post ;)), so I can't be very specific. Hovewer judging from what people are saying the new PoP is a classic example of lots of form and little substance. Innovation won't save a game that has no firm foundation in fun and engaging gameplay.

I really like it so he can have a virtual pat on the back from me too. It's a truly beautiful game, not terribly challenging perhaps but I can't remember enjoying playing a game as much in ages. I actually like the Prince, I mean, sure he's a complete asshole, but well done and where I am in the game at the moment Elika is running rings around him in the dialogue.

God I'd really hate to be as pissed off with life as most of ye seem to be. Enjoy Christmas morning, when you piss all over the presents you receive.

Sure it is innovative with turn-based combat in a realtime action game, and having someone swoop in and pull you to the previous checkpoint without simply teleporting there with full health might also be innovative (although it has been done before). But the problem is that it isn't an improvement, and as such the innovation isn't really worth much and more time should have been spent on improving the game until the innovation surpasses the status quo. I like the thinking that you shouldn't be punished for failing if that is the way to learn and master the game, but there are such a thing as taking it too far. If you want to make a simple casual game then go for it but don't mix and match difficult hand-eye coordination with too much forgiveness, all you get is disappointment from everyone rather than just the semi-hard-core or the semi-casual crowds. Just quit complaining about other people's opinions, at least you have a fanbase with the prince of persia series as opposed to almost all other childrens games.

This is such a classic 'Gamer' thread. Loving it, keep it coming guys :)

So even if it's a bad idea we should be patting people on the back? Give 'em the old "at least your tried" consolation prize?

And why should Mirror's Edge sell a bunch? For one, it's not that great a game -- some love it and some don't -- but, secondly, it's like 6 hours long! That has "rental" written all over it. Haven't played Dead Space, but I didn't exactly think "revolutionary" from what I saw of it. Looks like a shooter in space. Whippeeeeeee!

I haven't played POP, TBH I never rated the 3D ones anyway (only opinion guys, don't hate), but what did this guy expect.

I have to say from the footage I've seen it looks like a terribly boring experience and I can't really see anything great there, innovative or not. to me It's not surprising it did not go down that well.

(oddly I love AC the game POP supposedly nicked all it's fighting from)

"Who cares for "importance for the market"? Except the publishers of course. It's a games journalist's duty to point out flaws of a game to their target audience, at least on a "core" gaming site."

It's also a games journalist's duty to educate his/her audience and not just slavishly follow their established convictions...

The reality the games industry needs to face is that it's intended markets are getting totally fed up with the same old stuff in new clothing.

Back in the Atari, sega, nintendo days of famicoms and jaguars. The industry crashed precisely because we all got totally disillusioned with the crapfest that was sequel after sequel.

@darleysam

You are totally correct. LBP, Dead Space, Mirrors Edge and now the new POP are all loosing money. The cost of producing them and the returns are simply not adding up. Let's face it. If it takes a team of hundreds to produce pretty graphics with totally generic and lacking gameplay, then as cruel as this may sound, those software houses deserve to go under.

I look at the forums each day and (amongst the dross) there are gamers who simply say "Why didn't they add X or Y". Usually these one line questions contain better ideas than a team of 100 so called game developers could come up with in the space of a two year project. It makes me ashamed to be working in this industry. It's even more idiotic, because often on a project, you will hear precisely these kinds of genuinely inovative suggestions and the designer will shoot them down. Not because they are no good but, because the idea didn't come from them.

It makes it extremely hard to feel anything when a designer and his team go under as a result. Pride before a fall is what I usually think.

"This is the 5th in the Prince of Persia series "

The fifth? I assume you're counting the orginal POP, The Sands of Time, The Warrior Within and Two Thrones? So what happened to Prince of Persia 2 and Prince of Persia 3D?

How does no challenge = innovation? May as well be Rise of the Robots.

I think they tried to appeal to 'non gamers' and alienated it's core audience. When I first saw the screenshots I thought it looked excellent. Then I saw the bouncy ring things, the combat and the bint helping him along in motion and it put me right off.

Mirror's Edge I'm still not sure about. Demo was just okay. If it comes down a bit in price (£20) I'll buy it.

But let's look at a few things here. For arguments sake, LBP, Banjo Nuts & Bolts and to an extent End War tried to innovate. They didn't sell. Ico, Rez, Beyond Good & Evil...The list goes on.

Most of the above games would not be overlooked by gamers who post on this site. But I was in Game today and i saw a lot of people buying The Hulk on PS3 and 360. The reason seemed to be it was £20 (I think) and it's got The Hulk.

So, critics be damned! Hulk Smash!

"It's also a games journalist's duty to educate his/her audience and not just slavishly follow their established convictions..."

How about becoming a little less cryptic? What exactly is your problem with how PoP was reviewed?

Obviously I'm shit at games cos I'm finding this new Prince of Persia quite challenging and sometimes even frustrating :(

So buying the game alone isn't enough; we have to give them kudos for pinching ideas from elsewhere and fusing them together admittedly well - and what - not voice criticisms?! I think anyone who thinks this game is innovative is kidding themselves; all the good ideas are from Okami and SotC, and they've ruined the parts that made the Sands of Time trilogy so great.

PoP is an easy game to play, the presentation is superb and it looks lovely, but it is just mind-numbingly repetitive. Not as bad as Assassin's Creed, but not a million miles away.

Personally for me the 'lack' of challenge is a great thing. It means that the only thing that I need to invest in the game is a bit of my time in order to finish it. I won't get stuck in some lame difficulty spike or run out of lives or any of that sort of bullshit. It checkpoints whenever you're standing on solid ground, so if you fuck up you're never going to be kneecapped by retarded checkpointing dropping you twenty minutes back either - it's like a quicksave between any jump.

For some people that sucks, but for some people it doesn't. I suggest that the game hasn't been made for the former group.

Mudo,

Agreed. Maybe I'm a crap gamer and I've finished my share of hard games i.e. Ninja Gaiden 2 recently but I feel that the difficulty level is set just right.

In fact at the end of the game it got so frustating that I threw the controller on the floor which is very unusual for me.

The biggest problem with this game is the repetition and combat which sucks just like all POP games.

Having now completed it I will say that its been a pleasant experience and that you can now get it at £18 at Play.com it is worth getting.

But as for 'pats on the back' - try harder next time

Yup, love those new ideas such as:

- reducing all the platforming and combat to moronic impossible-to-fail QTEs
- making a game that more or less plays itself
- lots of other stuff lovingly "borrowed" from Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, and Okami

Well done on all that risk-taking Ubisoft!

Borrowing lots of stuff from games that didn't sell and repackaging it with a world-renouned brand to try and expand the tastes of maintstream gaming audiences? That does sound like taking risks to me. It might not exactly be innovative, but it is a bit of a risk.

Innovations:
Making complex platforming easy
Making one-on-one fights interesting again - it's saying that new gen doesn't have to just mean more numbers of enemies on screen
Making most of the plot optional - rather than forcing you to see it all in cutscenes you can get the bare minimum from those and do the rest when you want to (if you want to at all).

I think they've done a damn good job with these and I'm very much enjoying the game. I think I can see where the plot is taking me, so I hope they surprise me, but it's not too bad. It's not a perfect game, but I think it's a solid 80-90% for me.

Did he really say "art-tertainment"? Really? I mean ... really?

...

Really?

@Doctor_what

Innovations:
Making complex platforming easy

That is an oxymoron platforming is either complex or easy it can't actually be both and there-in lies the true problem with the new POP. All it's elements are negated by the design choices made with the gameplay.

Making one-on-one fights interesting again - it's saying that new gen doesn't have to just mean more numbers of enemies on screen

Every fight can be won with the same sword, throw, Elika air combo for stupidly massive damage. Even the boss fights can be won this way. The fighting is only interesting the first time, until you realise every fight has the same 3 events. The fights in assasins creed were more inovative and exciting that the fights in POP.

Making most of the plot optional - rather than forcing you to see it all in cutscenes you can get the bare minimum from those and do the rest when you want to (if you want to at all).

A story driven game needs the plot to be integral to the game. As a result of the optional plot, the game's ending doesn't work at all. In fact , due to this design choice, the ending is leaving a bitter taste in a lot of peoples mouths. It litterally makes playing the game pointless.

its Christmas so Iwill give the UBI devs a pat on the back, everybody here can get a pat on their back. Come on guys its Christmas its all about love (and gluttony) ,so leave the hate until the new years night drunken fist fights.

MERRY CHRISTMAS.

so basically, he's whining about poor sales. Shut that cakehole, boy, game is sub-par and the 6/10 from EG was perfectly appropriate