Penny Arcade dev explains PSN delay Comments by Robert Purchese

"Seriously, you guys remind me of people in pubs who think they are the worlds best football manager. "

The only difference being that some of us here are football managers.

"I know what Sony have done wrong, they didn't consult with Eurogamer forums on what should and shouldn't be included in their latest console offering. "

Kinda strange that MS actually asked us the developers what they wanted in their next console. So yeah, maybe Sony should ask next time (and I am sure they will.. I think the next PSx will be a lot more dev friendly).

Glad to see you are back Dizzy, I thought I had silenced you with my comments on the previous page.

Kinda strange that MS actually asked us the developers what they wanted in their next console.
Perhaps they should have spent more time asking hardware guys and they might not of released the most unreliable console ever made.

I think the next PSx will be a lot more dev friendly
Won't you be drawing your pension when that comes out?

I completely agree with Farty & Dizzy on the development issue although I think the debate was taken on a tangent somewhat.

To claim that we're not good programmers because we would rather work on easier to use systems if fucking bollocks.

All that happens is these 'problem solving skills', that I'm sure is what made us programmers in the first place, shift from figuring out low level problems of performance to high level problems such as the examples farty gave. I know which ones I'd rather work on.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing more satisfying that solving some really tricky low level technical issue, but the point is you don't want to have to be doing it just because the hardware and API has made it difficult for you.

Dizzy's point was that the PS2 for a long time was the only system to develop for, so programmers had no choice but to get used to it. If they had an option to use something just as powerful but easier to work with they would have. Does that mean they should 'hang up their gloves'?

Dizzy's point was that the PS2 for a long time was the only system to develop for

I know exactly what you mean, the N64, Dreamcast and the Xbox never existed eh?

@Abiter

So is it not possible to ever have 'bad' hardware/tools? Just different?

We're just going to have to agree to disagree then.

@mcbi4kh2

I apologised to you the other day for being rude, but I'm now just starting to see that I shouldn't have bothered. You've just re-iterated what Aofanboi said even though Dizzy had already answered it.

I don't recall anyone praising the N64 for being easy to develop for so it doesn't prove your point.
The Xbox came far too late so people were already up to speed with the PS2 so it doesn't prove your point.
And as Dizzy had pointed out, most Dev's didn't get the chance to work on the DC so it doesn't prove your point.

I'm sure if they'd had the choice on working with the DC or PS2 (in the early day's) they would have preferred to work on the DC although the advantage of DVD doesn't make this conclusive.

You then went on about age etc etc and doing that classic young persons thing of assuming you won't be doing X, Y and Z when you that age. Fuck Off.

@Arbiter

I find this continued comment that me, farty and dizzy should get different job's really fucking insulting to be honest.

I'm good at my job. I enjoy my job. I love change (for the better.) I still love a challenge.

Your insistence that programmers should just relish working on something new and different is just plain wrong. If its a pain in the arse, it's a fucking pain in the arse.

What part of this don't you get? If I'm a gardener do I use the lawnmower that makes my job easy so I can concentrate on putting pretty lines on the lawn or do I fuck about using the more complex lawnmower that offers me no benefit? From the desk I'm sitting at now, with 8 other programmers aged between 22 and 34, it's no fucking different I can assure you.

I apologised to you the other day for being rude, but I'm now just starting to see that I shouldn't have bothered.

Your apology has already been accepted I'm afraid, you can't take it back.

Basically you are saying people only got used to the PS2 beacuse there was no competition at the time.

Basically I am saying, the PS2 got rid of the competition by the quality of its games and therefore couldnt have been that difficult to code for.

I have never woeked in the games industry, but Ive heard its extremely hard and time consuming. You must be really good at it if you have the time / inclination to write walls of text on a message board.

Although not at me I thought I would respond
I find this continued comment that me, farty and dizzy should get different job's really fucking insulting to be honest.

My friend it is a message board, nothing anyone can ever say to anyone is insulting.

@Mpc6429

Yes, I'm THAT good at my job I can do both.

"I fail to see what personal attacks bring to the argument though and I just can't tell you how upset they have made me. "

Twat.

@spacemidget75

ROFLMAO! Great banter!

No one's crying about it mate. We just stated we'd rather work on X than Y. If you want to start embellishing the whole thread with images of me screaming saying "no! no! please don't make me do it!" then that's fine.

I work with shit all the time. No one's jumping up and down about it.

I didn't expect you to give a fuck about whether you were insulting or not - I do plenty of insulting. I was still going to mention it.

So, all in all, well done for completely losing it on a website and going off on one about us all "crying a river" etc etc.

3 developers agree on a point and you don't. Great. You're still right.

Im a developer does that count? Farti isnt, he said so himself. That makse 2-2. Its settled, a draw it is. edit: not a games developer mind.

And on a personal note, I couldnt (edit: find) this thread this morning I had forgotten what it was about. Now that is going off topic. :D

Farty is a dev and working on games isn't really relevant to this discussion IMO.

So that's 3-2!

With maths like that you'll make a great programmer when you're a grown up.

Besides I don't know what the fuck Arbiter is tbh. Probably worked as a games tester for Sony Europe once and now knows everything about the industry and games development. ;)

DAM you! (I ignored Farti a while ago which is why I didnt know that)

I want to be a games developer when I 'grow-up'. Any tips?

@Arbiter

"You were in a scene group that used API blitter routines on the amiga? "

I'm primarily an enterprise business application developer, so excuse me for not being a professional Amiga game developer, and frankly this all happened something like 20 years ago so I may or may not remember every call exactly. You make do with what you have, and back then there was no internet to research on. The logical place to start working the low level hardware functions is via libraries.

The point that was being made before you went off on your elitist spleen vent, is that developers would rather come up with more efficient or creative ways of achieveing the task at hand than have to fight to get reasonable results from the hardware. The way to achieve that is through a mature and efficient SDK.

Saying that developers WANT to have to hand-craft every routine, rather than have efficient routines for commonplace functions available to them is utter rubbish, and you know it.


"The PS3 -in fact all Sony- hardware can be said to be harder to code for then because it isn't part of the Wintel tradition. By your terms its bad because it isn't a fucking PC."

Thanks for misquoting me. What I said was the Cell is not the mystical font of untapped power some believe it is. It's just another multicore processor with the same pitfalls as other multicore processors.


You are taking this ludicrous standpoint in a desperate attempt to defend your beloved PS3. You can spew your offensive brand of fantard bile until you are blue in the face, but you will not change the well known fact that the PS3 is a bastard to work on because of it's developer tools.


Furthermore, I do not wish to view your comments as you have a very unpleasant written manner, and always manage to turn a reasonable debate into a slanging match, and stupidly I get drawn down to your level, which is neither productive nor enjoyable to participate in. Congratulations, from this point on you will join the other retards in my ignore list.

@Arbiter


"Oh, and midget. Farty "outed" himself earlier in this thread as a wannabe game-coder."

Wrong again, I've never wanted to be in the games industry as it's too unstable and cut-throat for my liking.

I do like to dabble though, unless you don't think I have the right to do that? Wouldnt surprise me with your holier-than-though attitude.

@mcbi4kh2

Yes, download the XNA stuff and give that a go. It really is quite nice to work with and easy to use!

Unfortunately it's by MS so you might not like it!

So can the gardener prefer the more comfortable mower?

Can you answer my question please as it's pretty much all we were saying.

For the record I've never said that the PS3 can't do games as good as the 360. Do a search if you like.

But I still think that you can design hardware and API's etc that are a pain to work with.

I'll just take that as a 'yes', the gardener is allowed to prefer the more comfortable lawnmower.

Realistically, do you think that Sony could hope to start from a level playing field with Microsoft given the ubiquity of MS operating systems, its tools, IDE's and API's?

So you do agree that the 360 is easier to develop for then?

Incidentally, non-MS consoles in the past have succeeded in making their systems 'easy' to work with without having a huge software company's resources to help. Sony are on the 4th system after all.

Well look I'll just say it again. All we were saying is that the PS3 is harder to develop for. That's it.
It's seems like we all agree!

I think the argument spiralled when you suggested that if people find working on the PS3 harder then they should get another job.

Although tbh my brain hurts now.