PC fans forcing DRM into extinction Comments by Robert Purchese

Hey, uh, sorry for being ignorant and everything... but what is DRM?

This I agree with:

"If you’re playing a pirated copy right now, if you’re one of those people on Hamachi or GameRanger playing a pirated copy and have been for more than a few days, then you should either buy it or accept that you’re a thief and quit rationalising it any other way,"

This I don't:

"People who pirate the game are people who wouldn't have bought it anyway."

I'm actually quite surprised he thinks that. Certainly there are many people who wouldn't have bought it anyway, but I find it hard to believe people will always buy something they really want.

DRM = Digital Rights Management

It's basically software that restricts the user from doing things, like copying the DVD/CD or installing it more than 5 times before the DVD becomes nothing more than a coffee coaster.

Although, I'm not sure how broad a range DRM covers. Is Steam a form of DRM?

2nd to 5th!

Why didn't an online game like Demigod have the requirement of CD keys to play online?

No one complains at having to type a key in to play and then jkust use the same key to allow people to use it online. Ok, you'll still get offline pirates.

In my perfect world, i'd see all games bought online or via steam and all console games having a code to type in when you buy them new.

This means no games can be traded in and the developers/publishers get all the revenue. Due to this extra revenue the price of games drops by 50%, meaning people don't mind buying twice as many new games a year, everyone is happy.

Tomo, i suspect what he might mean is that 99.9% of those who pirate the game and play it WONT go out and buy it, because they are lazy losers who dont think they should. I dont think these cheapo's who want everything for free will make the effort to go and buy something, yes there might be a few, but I suspect the number would be very low indeed.

I know I've pre-ordered various xbox RPGs to get the extra codes/content rather than waiting for them to show up used, so that definately works as an incentive - I'd otherwise have waited and got them cheap as used copies - I just got round to playing Infinate Undiscovery and it has now dropped to 12ukp used (or less)!

Conversely, I waited ages before taking the plunge on PC Bioshock (despite being interested in it), and whilst the DRM wasn't the only reason, its removal finally convinced me to buy.

Hmmm dispite being once more insulted on these forums it looks like my stance that people who pirate wouldn't have bought the game in the first place has been vindicated.

As a developer I've long known that pirates don't buy stuff just because they couldn't find the free version. I keep saying it and people keep trying to deny it. Yes piracy is stupid but, when I looked at my company sales figures. they didn't fluctuate as you would expect them to if piracy was having any effect on legitiame purchases.

Pirates are thieves pure and simply. The guy stealing your TV is hardly likely to go out and buy one because he couldn't get into your house. Nope he'll just go off and steal someone elses TV instead.

Hello there shitstorm comments thread . . .

I won't shed any tears for DRM.

Pirate can't find awesome game X for free: doesn't buy.
Pirate can't find awesome game Y for free: doesn't buy.
Pirate can't find awesome game Z for free: doesn't buy.
Pirate realises he never gets to play games.
Pirate starts considering buying a game, because that way at least he gets to play one.

I don't see what's so complicated about that logic.

"This means no games can be traded in and the developers/publishers get all the revenue. Due to this extra revenue the price of games drops by 50%, meaning people don't mind buying twice as many new games a year, everyone is happy."

Erm... Do you really think thats what's going to happen?

More likely: No games can be traded in, and the prices will stay the same, or possibly increase, due to a lack of competition and greater freedom for publishers to do whatever the hell they like.

Furthermore, only buying games online means no price-drops over time, and increases the possibility of having to pay monthly/yearly to play your favourite games.

@Domovoi
Pirate can't find awesome game X for free: doesn't buy.
Pirate can't find awesome game Y for free: doesn't buy.
Pirate can't find awesome game Z for free: doesn't buy.
Pirate realises he never gets to play games.
Pirate starts considering buying a game, because that way at least he gets to play one.


Understandable logic, but nowadays games X, Y and Z can be found illegally just as easily as the legit version. I think there would be a negligible minority who would've bought the game had they not found an illegal version, but with computers becoming integral in every generation, 10 year olds know how to pirate games, and this can only get worse.

the irony of DRM is the people who pay for the game end up getting a worse user experience than those who get the pirate version, in a similar fashion to people who buy legit DVD's having to sit through unskippable adverts and stuff telling them that piracy is wrong

Understandable logic, but nowadays games X, Y and Z can be found illegally just as easily as the legit version. I think there would be a negligible minority who would've bought the game had they not found an illegal version, but with computers becoming integral in every generation, 10 year olds know how to pirate games, and this can only get worse.


Agreed, but the solution to that is make all major games next to impossible to pirate. The amount of people who would buy a game if they couldn't pirate it may indeed be negligible, but I think the amount of people who would buy games if they couldn't pirate any games is quite considerable. After all, they wouldn't be able to play anything if they didn't.

If that means DRM, so be it. It'd be a nice (if not necessary) service to their customers if they made it virtually painless for actual consumers, though. Steam is pretty far along on the right track, IMHO.

'the solution to that is make all major games next to impossible to pirate'

isn't that what they tried with drm? whatever security features they put on games someone somewhere is gonna crack it, and put that version on the net.

The problem with the drm systems that they put in place was that they failed on two major levels

1. They were cracked so didn't stop piracy
2. They pissed off paying customers

Thus not a good idea, don't ask me what the solution is though because I haven't worked it out ;)

That's like telling Edison to stop fussing with the lightbulbs because getting electricity into your home to power them is expensive and inconvenient. How about just continuing to develop DRM to address the two flaws you mentioned, rather than just giving up on it altogether?

"Agreed, but the solution to that is make all major games next to impossible to pirate"

With the best will in the world, this is not going to happen. You cannot make every game uncopyable.

Mr X Will buying their legitimate copy of a game and then get pretty pissed off at being forced to jump through hoops just to get the game to work.

Mr Y illegally downloads their cracked copy of the same game with all the DRM and copy protection stripped away before he even gets his hands on it.

End result - Mr Y obliviously plays his game and has a jolly good time, whilst Mr X resents being treated like a criminal and maybe even starts to envy Mr Y and his trouble-free gaming experience.

DRM does not hurt it's intended target one bit, unless (as i suspect) it's true target is re-sellers. But piracy...NO

They can say what they want about mobs and people complaining about DRM but the fact of the matter is every game with DRM gets cracked, sometimes before the games start selling in shops.
So if it dosn't work at all why bother with it.

Interesting read, though it's similar to ones posted elsewhere.

I must say I have to agree with Wardell for the most part. People who grew up "in the age of pirating", will not likely buy a game since they know how easy it is to obtain illegally. Even if there'd be some way to get the game in a few mouseclicks and downloading it at the person's max speed, why bother for a game that you might not even like?

The feeling I have about this group of people is that they'll pay up if the online advantages are good enough. SF4, CoD4, Mmorpgs, TF2's.

I believe the whole delivery method needs to change, perhaps even steam-wise, but then per developer. People don't want to pay extra to have to do more trouble like going to a town or paying for delivery and the charge-up prices from (web)shops. People want the easiest solution; and right now that's pirating.

If there's a platform that can deliver games easily and at a good price; that'll be the future.

Finally some devs are getting it.

You could of course allow donations to the devs so even if someone pirates the game you could put a link within the game to donate directly to the devs. You could even make it so as people donate to the game new content is unlocked for everyone in the game.

I've said it before and I've yet to be proven wrong:
PC gamers believe that piracy is their god-given right.
Nothing will ever stop that - it's understandable that the industry is getting bored of trying.

People need to realise, however, that this attitude will lead to the death of games for their platform.
Software production is a business not a charity for criminals.

This is why I like services like Steam and now Impulse and both Value and Stardock in general, it just feels less and a hassle buying from them and just waiting for the download then having to jump thru the hoops in installing it, hoping it works first time, and end up feeling like you have indeed 'rented' the game in the long term..

Yea I do agree DRM is only really effecting the resale market but Steam/Impulse effectivly do the same thing but it's less stress on the buyer, I KNOW I own a Steam/Impulse product and can re-install it forever as long as they still support it, TBH I've yet to see a Steam prouct be discontinued, and with DoW and Last Reminent I DO prefer Steam being the 'DRM' for those products after having to lose my HDD data and then just re-download the games no issue, the only solid issue i've got with Steam is that EA are dragging their heels with their games on Steam in the UK if they were out already I would already own Spore and the RA mission pack.

I know many state Steam is more expensive then shops but with their software it's worth spending more to actally control how you use the product and not be shacked with DRM restrictions.

@dsmx

Wouldn't that just be DLC? And even then theres a chance that most will never donate for that and so the dev makes no money anyway. based on your model I would be surprised if anyone donated as they would just be waiting for someone else to pay the money to unlock the content for them.

To tomo yeah I think Steam counts as DRM, they have it posistioned that no-one would pirate or cheat for fear of getting locked out of all their games they have authorised through thier steam libary. I'd say thats pretty hardcore DRMish and the reasons Kremlik states are pretty much why I'm ok with it too.

I don't understand how publishers think they have a legal right to stop you reselling your games or any other material you may have. It's not like this sort of thing hasn't occurred throughout the entirety of human history. You buy something from a craftsman, you use it, when you don't need it you sell it on to someone else. I don't have a clue where they conjure up some magical right whereby they still own part of whatever you purchase.

@Eraysor

Maybe its something to do with the nature of the product I guess, You get tool from someone use it and resale it then you no longer have the tool ans so can't use it. With console games this could apply as you sell the DVD/Disc you don't have it but on the PC (ok and Consoles) its easy to just make and distrubute a copy so you get the money but still have it too.

Or maybe their just greedy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41SkP55Xyjk

Why does the PC get always the blame?

When there people flashing their Xboxes and doing the same thing?

I think most pirates here in UK were pissed at the 34.99 price tag of PC games some years ago

I personally always buy a pc title that I want. But I don't believe in purchasing a title that is over my 24.99 threshold Unless it COD, Dragon Ages, diablos and GTA of this world.
I expect polish from my PC titles and not some quick console port that we are seeing alot these days. I personally take great pleasure in owning the best version of titles regardless of what platform it's on. But recently most PC titles have been very poor ports than don't take advantage of the hardware that they are on. When developers and publishers jump on the console bandwagon because they blame piracy on the PC

Reasonable prices, digital distribution across the board,real DLC (not something that was cut before release and put out as DLC later on) and not forcing DRM on everyone will surely solve the problem

Plus what has happened to the PC Demo of late. I see demos of upcoming titles on the PS3 and X360 but nothing for the PC consumer?

Don't you think having demos like we use to have for the majority of titles will allow the pirate to make up their minds? Whether to purchase the title or to give it a miss?

I wait for the glorified day when developers can release their titles via digital distribution and get 100% of the revenue back because they are not paying some publisher to push their title

Perhaps this in turn will allow more innovative titles to produced which will games industry a more fulfilling place for the consumer

Developers have always tried to come up with bright ideas to combat piracy and most of them have fallen short.

I remember Robocop III to the Amiga when you had to plug in some kind of dongle into the computer to make the game work. Unfortunately the game got cracked anyway...

I think the DLC might actually be the best course of action, if you have the original game you are allowed to download more content for free or pay a small amount of money. It will give that feeling of having exclusive material that pirated copies don't have.

I've said it before and I've yet to be proven wrong:
PC gamers believe that piracy is their god-given right.

Way to generalise there.
Allow me to prove you wrong, since I've been playing PC games for many years and do not believe that piracy is my god-given right.

I'll go one step further and fix your generalist comment to be more accurate, "Thieving gamers believe that piracy is their god-given right, regardless of platform.".

If they are finally going to stop drm then will they finally stop making PC games that require you to have the cd in the drive.

Also eveyone seems to totally disregard that some pirates may spend hundreds of pounds a year on games and then pirate what they can t afford and would only end up buying from the bargain bin anyway.

Also due to my 1-2 meg internet connection (and where I live I couldn't get a massively faster connection anyway) I hardly ever buy anything off steam I can buy in a shop because sometimes it would actually be quicker to get off my arse get a train to the shopping center and buy a physical copy of the game.

A solution is to have all games connect to a server, the game requires a key or tied to a MAC address or something and once the game has been connected all elements of the game are available. You dont play online, only a one time check everytime you load. Once you have passed the check you get the complete game, if you dont pass the check you get to play the complete game but its completely borked. No access to all weapons, easier enemies, essential parts of a level missing so you cant progress, speed limit on the car.... that way pirates get to play the game almost like a bigger demo, if they love it enough they have a better chance of buying it.

im sure something similar to this was tried before but it turned out to be a pile of shit and never worked like they said it would. And it would mean that you would need an internet connection to play....

The IT crowd made the point best

You Tube

I have absolutely nothing against disc-protection and an offline serial/activation key as has been used for countless PC games over the past umpteen years. What I do object to are online activations and those that have a limited number of installs as the despicable EA are fond of doing. I think it's just downright mean of the publishers to do this as it means that at some point in the future those games may no longer be playable unless the publisher releases some kind of patch. Who's to say they will and how can they do that if they're no longer around for example?

I've noticed that almost all downloadable music is now DRM-free so it doesn't surprise me that PC games are heading that way too. DRM doesn't prevent piracy anyway, they'll find a way to crack the games regardless, all it does it punish the person who legally bought the software. When you think about it that is just so unfair.

@Grayvern - Apart from the odd cheap offer, Steam are disgustingly overpriced for the majority of new releases IMO so I'll *never* buy such a game from them as long as that's the case. I've purchased games online for £18 when they've been £35-£40 on Steam. That is just sheer greed for sure and yet companies like Steam want people to embrace the digital revolution. How can they when they're being pretty much robbed?

The guy stealing your TV

... is removing a physical item so that I no longer have it. If someone downloads an illegal copy of something, the original item remains. This, plus the fact that different laws cover the two actions, is the reason the abuse of language that "illegal copying is stealing" is wrong. It is not stealing, it is not raping, it is not murder. It is illegal/unlicensed copying. If a CD is printed in 5000 copies and someone downloads a copy of the album then 5000 copies remain to be bought. If a musican has $10000 in the bank and someone downloads his music, he still has $10000. There is no loss.

Maybe if the problem continues they will start comparing it to raping...

@AOFanboi there is no gain either for the hard work creative staff have put into their work, which will hurt the gaming industry and make it less risk averse, ultimately PC gamers legit and thieves alike will lose out in the end. See PSP output from 2006-2008 before newer models were introduced...

Or just stop making games for systems with rampant illegal copying.

AOFanboi - You seem to be forgetting that having 5,000 copies of a CD for sale doesn't make you the maximum amount of money, you have sell *all* of those copies first. Piracy means that people have a choice between either paying for something or getting something for free. What that means is that you may sell a few hundred CDs less as a result. Of course, it cannot be proven because no-one can know how many copies you would have sold had the pirate copy not existed but logic tells you that it *is* the case. Some people are weak-willed and cannot resist freebies if they're thrown their way. That translates to lost sales.

IMO there are two kinds of pirates. There's the kind who pirate the odd thing here and there because they can't resist having something for free as mentioned above. And there are those who pirate everything because they can and don't believe in paying for ANYTHING. It is the former type that loses the industry money not the latter.

I've said it before and I've yet to be proven wrong:
PC gamers believe that piracy is their god-given right.

Nonsense. Absolutely nothing to do with the platform- people pirate as soon it's comparatively easy and trouble-free. PC, DS, PSP, you name it. Morons can be found everywhere.

This, plus the fact that different laws cover the two actions, is the reason the abuse of language that "illegal copying is stealing" is wrong.

Shoplifting an infinitely reproducable data carrier with a material vaue that goes against zero, or downloading the content, is nearly the same. It's the content that makes the as such worthless data carrier valuable - exactly the same content that pirates download. There's a bigger difference between theft of a non-reproducable or a per se valuable item (like, say, a car) and theft of a DVD than there is between the latter and downloading.

No reason tell off people everytime they use the word "theft" in connection with copyright infringement, it's not nearly as far-fetched as the academic insisting on the "physical object" in these cases where the value of that physical object compared to the immaterial value is so tiny as to be negligible.

There's a reason why even jurists, the people who invented pedantry, use the word "copyright theft".

I'm convinced that we lost very few customers because of piracy," he added, even though he found 10-times more people playing World of Goo than had legitimately paid for it.

A 90% piracy rate is 9x the number of people who paid for it, unless 110% of people have the game.

"What they're trying to do is stop people from going to GameStop to buy USD 50 games for USD 35 - none of which goes into the publishers' pockets."

Simple solution -
Say a game is £40 new at release, online from the publishers/on steam its £35,
1 month later, the game is still £35 new in shops, but only £25 second hand.
If the publisher then lowers the price on steam/on their website to £25, or even slightly above, more people will buy it new. This is especially easy on steam, where the store is region locked.

Look at COD4, for about 8 months after release it was advertised on steam for £50, even though in store it could be had for £25-£30 second hand. And yet publishers still can't see that instead of having, say 100,000 sales at £50, they could have had probably 5x more sales at £25, adding up to 2.5x the revenue.

'accept that you’re a thief and quit rationalising it any other way'

hmm... see the word theif is like the word terrorist - it depends on who is defining it

some (not me) would consider it long-term borrowing

And yet another chuckle read at EG.

I might be wrong, since I don't have solid data on the subject, but I don't think that making all games uncrackable (lets assume it's possible, while we all know it's not) will change game sales figures. Why? For simple reason that assumption that every pirate is a rich bastard getting for free what he could easily pay for is not correct.

As it happens, especially nowadays with the economy being what it is, there's a huge number of people (of all ages) that can't afford spending cash on luxuries. Such as games. Not everyone lives in rich countries, too. It would be quite interesting to see what's the percentage of people pirating games in relation to country/region and average family income.

There is also another issue that begun to surface with online download services such as steam. As many people pointed out, price of digital download is the same as boxed version, and doesn't seem to be going down past release. Could someone explain to me why a game you get online (even if it's a purchase, and not a camouflaged lease with limited installations) costs as much as boxed version? From my point of view it looks like they are trying to force people to buy boxed game versions again.

And I'm not even going to discuss the merits of the wonderful idea of making me log on to some service to play a game I paid for. Someone, somewhere assumed that everyone has non stop internet access. I, for one, do not, and not being able to play the stuff I paid for (in this case, episodes of half life) really ticked me off.

P.S.
I really considered getting appropriate patch for those half life episodes that would allow me to play them regardless of whether I'm on or offline. I guess that officially makes me one of those nasty pirates, sucking blood of the poor games industry that expects me to pay for the stuff I buy and then again pay for the things they don't mention at all, like internet access.

P.S.S
Whatever people selling stuff think, people buying stuff are not lobotomized zombies, and shockingly, they got rights to good product and good service in exchange for their money. If those rights are blatantly abolished and shoved into the corner, people might get unhappy.

"As many people pointed out, price of digital download is the same as boxed version, and doesn't seem to be going down past release."

Bollocks. Older games on Steam get discounted all the time.

Also, you can play Steam games like HL2 in offline mode.

What I don't get with DRM is that someone, somewhere tried to make piracy difficult. Somewhere along the line they ( or someone like them ) realised this could be a way to make money. At no point did any of the above people realise how this anti piracy software would inconvenience the end user. In a way this must have helped encourage piracy or maybe worse, despondency and dis- interest towards the format the anti piracy protection was aimed at.

DRM shot itself in the foot big time.

I have never pirated a game and I don't agree with it, but at the same time DRM is enough to make me not buy a game.

I haven't bought a PC game with DRM since Half Life 2 snuck it on the back of the box in font 2 size text that I needed an internet connection to validate it (and at the time I didn't have one, so had to get one just for that game) - as you can imagine that pissed me off.

And just to add, as a fan of semi retro gaming I also despise stuff that only has a certain number of installs. For example I can see myself playing Morrowind in 10 years time for fun - what if the company had gone out of business and I'd used up all my installs? Annoying!

It's angers me how stupid most people are regards to this. Whenever they buy a DVD they get told copying it is stealing so they believe it is stealing, it requires no further thought from them, and they are convinced anyone who says otherwise is a thief trying to justify their actions.