NVIDIA bombards PC game pirates

By Robert Purchese Published 7 May, 2008

How can you "possibly justify it"?

NVIDIA games boss Roy Taylor believes we're at a point where he doesn't believe anyone could possibly justify pirating a PC game.

Speaking exclusively to Eurogamer, Taylor said it was "really unfair" to be stealing from and effectively killing the developers trying to keep the PC market alive.

"I think that we've arrived at a point now where I don't know how anyone could ever possibly justify pirating a game. I just don't know how anyone could consider that a cool thing to do - it's not. It sucks," Roy Taylor told Eurogamer.

"One of the things that I find frustrating is that PC gamers tend to be very passionate, and they love the people that make great PC games. If you ask any PC gamer what they think of John Carmack, they'll say he's a hero. What do they think of Tim Sweeney? He's a hero. Ken Levine is a hero. And yet many of them, sadly, will go and steal from them. I just don't get that, I really don't."

Taylor believes one way to combat this is by ramping up digital authentication, and to offer more post-launch content only available to legitimate, registered owners.

"I think that we're going to see more digital authentication, and we're going to see more of an approach that says that PC games aren't products - they're a service," added Taylor.

"You're going to start out with a basic service, which is the game, and then increase the value of that service through patches, mod packs, expansions, maps and so on. That's the direction it's going to go, because the pirates are just killing the developers - and I think it's really unfair, what they're doing."

BioWare recently revealed that Mass Effect PC will require an Internet connection in order to revalidate your CD key online every 10 days.

Roy Taylor's concerns also follow the recent decision by Crysis developer Crytek to stop making PC-exclusive games because of "huge piracy" problems.

Picture of Robert.

About Robert Purchese

Bertie is Eurogamer's Senior Staff Writer. When he's not hunting down news stories he's often found playing with his kids or gabbling about fantasy games and strange online worlds.

Read more articles from Robert by visiting the Robert Purchese archive page.

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Comments (130) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • SpaceDan #1 4 years ago

    I agree with the sentiment but abhor the DRM.

  • kangarootoo #2 4 years ago

    "I just don't know how anyone could consider that a cool thing to do - it's not. It sucks"

    Oh ffs, let me grab my small violin.

    I absolutely agree with his sentiment, but anyone who thinks that appealing to a game pirate's sense of fair play is being grossly naive.

    "Its not - it sucks" is one step removed from "You wouldn't steal a car".

  • Fleisch #3 4 years ago

    They could just release them through/register them via steam?! problem solved! Steam wins! :p

    DRM, of some form, is a necessary evil for computer games, day one piracy is really wrecking the business. Plus, pc games are waaay cheaper than they used to be and compared to console games theyre a bargain! I like the way valve worked it with steam, you can buy the full game on disc, but the .exe isnt released until day of release. Genius.

  • Erinan #4 4 years ago

    Online distribution/platforms (à la Steam) is probably the most obvious way to go for the PC. And it will just pave the way for the consoles.

  • robg #5 4 years ago

    What about charging an extortionate amount for graphics cards, and releasing games for nothing?

    :)

  • neil_likes_bums #6 4 years ago

    I'm weeping into one of your £500 notes at this moment.

  • MaxiSleep #7 4 years ago

    Once off activatoin/digital distribution = good idea

    Constant checks where you have to rely on internet connectivity and the publisher being in business to fund activation service = Bad idea.

    "Spogsoft regrets to annonce that the servers for Blahgame are to be shut down for finanial reasons"

    Just like Msoft did with its rental music service

  • hiddenranbir #8 4 years ago

    Ys, he's going the way of Stardock.

    Rewarding paying customers with free content.

  • neil_likes_bums #9 4 years ago

    The problem - as ever - is that you employ masses of DRM, which just annoys the people that legitimately aquired the product, while those that did not are just bypassing all that junk with a crack of some sort. This is the way it has always been, and the way it always will, you won't appeal to the better side of people by weeping gently.

  • Eraysor #10 4 years ago

    Even if people pirate games, people still need a good graphics card to run them. I don't see why he should be complaining. If people don't buy games, they have more money for the cards.

    EDIT: Anyway, free content for games after they have been released is almost a distant memory. Epic still makes bonus packs for the terribly underselling UT3, but Infinity Ward can't be bothered to release the new CoD4 maps on the PC...
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 14:33

  • SBfistfun #11 4 years ago

    This doesn't work anyway. There are versions of HL2, Counter strike etc. which have been cracked and run independently of steam. I doubt it will take long for cracked versions of mass effect to appear.

  • Xerx3s #12 4 years ago

    The way he looks at piracy, I look at DRM.

  • ZuluHero #13 4 years ago

    Isn't the obvious answer; "Because its free?" :S

  • Olemak #14 4 years ago

    Piracy is bad, you say?
    OK, I'll stop doing it then.

  • Bealsy #15 4 years ago

    I prefer pirates of the seven seas...


    ... Aarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

  • Bitkari #16 4 years ago

    The film & music industries are having the same problem.

    DRM hasn't helped them there - what has helped is embracing the new culture, and by making their content easily accessible.

    Locking things down doesn't help you get your product to the consumer quicker, it doesn't cut down piracy, and it sure as hell doesn't ingratiate you to your customers!

    TL;DR:

    Ask not what your customers can do for you, but what you can do for your customers!

  • DFawkes #17 4 years ago

    DRM must die. Fine, one off activation is a viable method, but my gaming rig doesn't have a permanent connection, so I won't be able to play it. So no Mass Effect for me I suppose, but I'm happy with KotOR.

  • PearOfAnguish #18 4 years ago

    "You're going to start out with a basic service, which is the game, and then increase the value of that service through patches, mod packs, expansions, maps and so on. That's the direction it's going to go, because the pirates are just killing the developers - and I think it's really unfair, what they're doing."

    That's not actually a bad thing. Give us regular free content updates and we'll love you even more, big boy.

  • subtlesnake #19 4 years ago

    /is waiting for the next 2 pages of argument over whether piracy constitutes theft

  • miiiguel #20 4 years ago

    Yet here in EG most of my fellow EGers are still in denial and thing PC-gaming piracy is overstated. IMO, it's not, it's the biggest problem PC-gaming ever faced.

  • chrisjm #21 4 years ago

    "If people don't buy games, they have more money for the cards. "

    but less new games available that need a new card, fewer games pushing the technology forward, fewer new cards released, less money spent on the cards, economies of scale go down, card prices go up & research and dev budgets shrink.

  • TagemandBagem #22 4 years ago

    Well I think this is a whole crock of shit. Developers have made it clear the "big buxx" are to be gleaned in the console market and PC gamers can just make due with the fetid after-birth. If a PC game is actually worth playing, and these days that is exceptionally rare, then people will buy it. COD4 PC is testament to that.
    Then you look at companies like UBI and EA who are almost wholly concerned with profits and synergy and pro-active business bullshit and see the ported dumbed-down bug ridden crap they churn out for PC and wonder why the market is dying.

  • AcidSnake #23 4 years ago

    increase the value of that service through patches, mod packs, expansions, maps and so on

    Patches too? You mean the code that fixes problems in games you already sold?
    How about focussing on not releasing buggy software first?

    This rant won't decrease piracy and neither will more invasive DRM...

  • TagemandBagem #24 4 years ago

    Also the anti-piracy program that came with Sniper Elite, Starcom or something, wrecked by DVD-drive.

    edit: Starforce. (Starcom was great.)
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 14:54

  • Lin #25 4 years ago

    I really don't buy this. I know far more people with chipped consoles than who pirate PC games. It just so happens that the current generation is too new for that to become really widespread. If anything, PC pirates are in the vast minority because very few people have the patience to do that every time they want a new game. Especially with all the issues it can cause with updating and multiplayer.

  • WillTheSecond #26 4 years ago

    Stronger DRM will increase piracy because making legal games difficult to play will of course make people choose the more user-friendly pirated games. On the other hand, if you don't do that, economic common sense dictates that many people will go for the free option (capitalism=individualism=selfish individuals). The market needs to adapt to the market trends, and that means cheap or free PC games.

    I'd rather it was a creative industry based on user generated content, which we are seeing increasingly, but advertising-based (like Battlefield Heroes) makes sense for the foreseeable future.
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 14:59

  • Lin #27 4 years ago

    I really don't buy this. I know far more people with chipped consoles than who pirate PC games. It just so happens that the current generation is too new for that to become really widespread. If anything, PC pirates are in the vast minority because very few people have the patience to do that every time they want a new game. Especially with all the issues it can cause with updating and multiplayer.

  • Bertie Verified Senior Staff Writer, Eurogamer.net #28 4 years ago

    IMO, it's not, it's the biggest problem PC-gaming ever faced.

    Absolutely. MMOs and online-based games such as Quake Live and Battlefield Heroes will keep it going, I believe, but for titles with little to no online offering there is barely any point being exclusively PC.


  • expiredone #29 4 years ago

    Simple solution, lock one game to one console, or with a PC game lock it to one copy of Windows. That way it can't play on any other console / PC. If your console breaks or you upgrade windows then you can transfer ownership of the game, but you need authorisation to do so.

    It would kill the second hand and rental game markets, but the game developer doesn't see any of that money anyway. If that's the price we have to pay then so be it. I hate pirates, anyone with pirated anything should be taken anyway and shot. OK maybe that's a little extreme. But I hate bloodsucking pirates.

  • kangarootoo #30 4 years ago

    "If a PC game is actually worth playing, and these days that is exceptionally rare, then people will buy it"

    I'm not sure that is true. If a game is worth playing, people will play it. Maybe that is a safe statement to make, but the actual spending of money is influenced by far more factors than just the quality of the product.


    @Lin

    "I really don't buy this. I know far more people with chipped consoles than who pirate PC games."

    I'm not sure what you are saying here. That because your individual circle of friends contains more chipped consoles, PC piracy is less prevalent globally than console chipping? That is simply not true. PC piracy is way more prevelant than console piracy, even with the PS2 being as ludicrously popular as it was.

    "If anything, PC pirates are in the vast minority because very few people have the patience to do that every time they want a new game."

    Truth is, piracy on any platform is in the minority. The majority of gamers buy their games, but that doesn't mean the minority don't have a powerful influence over the bottom line when it comes to profits and recouping the dev investment.

  • urban #31 4 years ago

    i pirated alot of games in my younger years when i couldn't afford them and it was easy access.

    but now i've grown into a valued customer so wheres the problem?

  • kangarootoo #32 4 years ago

    @expiredone

    That isn't entirely disimilar to what Windows itself does.

    However, its not the simple solution it might appear to be as removing the locking is just a part of piracy process. That is kind of the point here. Whatever form of protection you use, it means nothing is all the pirated versions of your game have it removed.

  • jaxon58 #33 4 years ago

    Although I don't agree with piracy, the whole 'It kills developers' argument is nonsense.

    If I pirated a developer's game and they went out of business, what do you think would happen? Yes, they'll go and get jobs elsewhere. So you're not killing any talent or design flare at all, you're just moving it along in the worst case scenario.

  • Stoatboy #34 4 years ago

    Perhaps releasing buggy games with ludicrous system requirements in genres that are already crowded on a format that's easy to copy (despite invasive DRM that won't be present in a pirated copy) whilst granting legitimate customers absolutely no right to return the item if it's faulty or doesn't work with their hardware (meaning they absolutely cannot get their money back - unlike pretty much every other consumer product on the market) means that people are more likely to look at getting hold of it for free, rather than risk wasting any money on the slender chance it isn't shoddy, generic crap that they've seen dozens of times already.

    Just a thought.

  • Skeletor #35 4 years ago

    Hehe, major devs and publishers looking for excuses why their shit doesn't sell while indies and eastern european products (Witcher, Stalker) make solid profit. It's always easier to cry and blame others than to fix problems in ones own backyard (excessive system requirements, bugs galore etc.)!
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 15:09

  • MrChuckles #36 4 years ago

    'If I pirated a developer's game and they went out of business, what do you think would happen? Yes, they'll go and get jobs elsewhere. So you're not killing any talent or design flare at all, you're just moving it along in the worst case scenario.'

    Pretty sure they wouldn't go and make another PC game though.

    My company used to make PC & Console games but PC games are very much an afterthought now. If it's easy to port over, lets do it, otherwise no point making it PC first, although there are large numbers of gamers, not a huge % actually pay anymore. i reckon about 50-60% of PC gamers i know, pirate, where it is about 5% of console gamers.

  • BlueDot #37 4 years ago

    @jaxon58

    So money to pay for development costs will appear out of thin air ? Oh, I get it, companies will pour money into games development out of the goodness of their hearts so people can have their games entertainment for free.

  • RazorObsession #38 4 years ago

    I go through piracy stages. Dream cast for instance, pirate games were everywhere, i didn't have to do a sodding thing to my console, fiver vs 30 quid. i slept like a baby at night too.

    then the ps2, once it was chipped. again price. if its between me having the money in the pocket or the games industry, well I'm going to choose me aren't I.

    xbox on the other hand, whilst tempting to get it chipped, meant i couldn't go on xbox live easily, if at all. same for the 360.
    this has effectively scuppered my pirating days.

    people pirate movies and music and games because its cheap, fast, effective and instantly gratifying. plus seeing as AAA titles in all three of the media disciplines are a rarity, more often than not if you pay proper for media, you feel a sour taste in your mouth as it never lived up to the hype. this way i am never disappointed, never out of pocket and can practice kleptomania from the comfort of my own home.

  • kururu #39 4 years ago

    sounds to me like there are whining not because they dont get enought money, because of people pirating, but because they dont get buckloads of money because of people pirating.

  • miiiguel #40 4 years ago

    skeletor, stoat, jaxon: why do "pirates" pirate the games then? if they're so bad and whatnot, they shouldn't do it. I mean, excuses are getting pretty pathetic right now. And the level of complains show that perhaps this rigid measures can, in fact have results. Don't compare small "indie" projects to major productions. The later have to have a big return, or in fact PC will have but flash games and MMO's. Why do you think MMO's have such success? They're much harder to steal. I have friends that play a lot on PCs and never, ever buy their games, yet they bought WoW... .
    There's no excuse for piracy, ppl do it because it's free and it's easy. It doesn't matter if the game is good or not.

    I'd prefer the honesty of Razor, though I despise the act of pirace, it's nor a personal thing, it's the act. When I found a Live "buddy" who was pirating games I just removed him from my list, I don't want to hang out with that crowd.
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 15:27

  • RexRunti #41 4 years ago

    The problem is that it's so easy to pirate PC games. To pirate a console game you need to open up the console, voiding the warranty and start pissing about with wires and or chips. Once done you then have to get a PC with a BluRay or DVD burner and download the game which had it's DRM removed burn it to disc, put it in the console and hope it works. With a PC game you just download and run the exe and bang your done.

    What I am aware of developers and publishers doing to combat this is put up fake copies of the game, wait for you to download it then sue for about a grand. The pirate always settles out of court because they don't want the criminal record.

    And to all you pirates out their how is it any different from walking into your local Game or HMV and sticking a game under your jumper and walking out?

  • Artemus #42 4 years ago

    This comment is POWERED BY ALIENWARE

  • Malixu #43 4 years ago

    I don't pirate, but when I see absurd copy protection systems like the one on Mass Effect, I'm not going to buy the game either. DRM IMHO stops a negligible number of pirates, while irking your paying customers. Let me backup my games. Don't make me keep the manual around if I want to play them. Really don't make me depend on your servers being up if I want to play my games 3-4 years from now.

  • BadBoyBonner #44 4 years ago

    I know many a PC Pirate in their late 20's & early 30's and the reasoning goes something like this

    Tell Wife/partner - PC costs XXXX pounds and we definitely need XXX gGFX card in it..

    Mate gets decent gaming rig under pretense of other practical purposes (which most £299 laptops could do).

    Mate now justifies to himself that seeing as he has made a £800 investment he can recoup it all back by never paying for a game.

    Said mates partner would be going ballistic over a console costing a few hundred quid and him then spending over half a grand on games - plus additional arguments and sulks of her not being able to watch soap operas while he hogs the front room.

    Needles to say he should buy some trousers off Ebay and start wearing some, better still take his partners.

    Unfortunately he's not alone - I think it's due to most of my mates being used to having to play in the bedroom from growing up doing it - and PC bedroom gaming allows them the illusion of being in charge.

    Grow up and buy some games - you soft lame pirates - better still give her the two finger salute get a console - and take charge of the front room your paying for! lol
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 15:35

  • Stoatboy #45 4 years ago

    @bcolter: If piracy was theft why on earth does the industry itself not use the word theft? If they could they absolutely would, but they can't, because it isn't - that's why. Theft involves depriving someone of an item. Piracy doesn't. You nick a CD someone else loses one. You copy MP3s, the person you got them from still has them.

    Unless you've never infringed a copyright ever I really wouldn't be so keen to label others as FUCKING thieves. Especially since they're not, because it's not theft, as we've already established. Are you really suggesting you've never copied or used music, games, movies, tv programs, text, pictures, fonts etc. you had no right to?

    @miiiguel

    Personally I don't pirate PC games, mainly because the ones I like are generally from quality sources like the Civ and Total War series, and I'm more than happy to take a punt on them. I've also never bothered with torrenting software which I presume is what's required these days.

    All I'm suggested is that there's an absolute shedload of reasons why people might consider piracy as a first course of action - if only as a try-before-you-buy measure. And whilst there will always be loads of died-in-the-wool pirates who would never have paid for the game anyway, it's pretty daft for the industry to make piracy look quite as appealing as it does, since every person who does decide to pirate it first with the intention of buying it later is one more person who may well not bother.

    Encourage them to buy the game as a first port of call, by releasing innovative, largely bug-free games that don't require stupidly high specs that make people question whether they can even run the thing, and perhaps people will be happier to trust that their £30 will be well spent.
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 15:36

  • knocker #46 4 years ago

    Any producer that makes their product *less* usable than the pirated equivalent deserves to fail. See stupid DVD's with unskippable warnings and music with battery killing Drm measures for example.

  • miiiguel #47 4 years ago

    Stoat, I wasn't calling you a pirate, or judging anyone personaly, it's the act and its consequences. Like I said before I have some really hardcore pirate friends (one is in front of me right now...), and he's a nice bloke, I like him. But concerning video-gaming/copyrights (respect for digital work) we have completly antagonist views on the subject, so I avoid talking about it with him at all.
    On the other hand, I'm not claiming that I'm perfect. I did some nasty things related to music pre-iTunes and pre-Zune, when I couldn't find obscure titles in the shops like Big Black, Revolting Cocks (anything Steve Albini...), but fortunatly now I can find anything.

  • gmmonkey #48 4 years ago

    Of course he doesn't want pc gaming to die. Who's going to buy his £500 gfx cards then? I'd imagine a sizeable part of nvidias money comes from game gfx card hardware sales. :D

  • MrWonderstuff #49 4 years ago

    To anyone that witters on about a 'try before you buy' mentality - demos. They are there for a reason. Granted, Oblivion, for example never had a demo, but one of the few exceptions. I think DRM is the way to go and the sooner the better. If the PC gaming industry requires saving, which I reckon it does to a degree then this is the lifeline.
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 15:55

  • hiddenranbir #50 4 years ago

    Bring back shareware!

  • DFawkes #51 4 years ago

    Just an idea, albeit an impractical one, but can't we just have PC games run off disc? I'd rather my PC games ran like console games than having to install console games. I'm looking at you Devil May Cry 4, Lost, Lost Planet, Oblivion etc

    I know there are practical reasons why it won't work, but if it wasn't a case of copying cracked files into a folder it'd make piracy harder at least. Maybe.
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 16:06

  • BadBoyBonner #52 4 years ago

    I'd imagine revenue from GFX cards - and the technological superiority we all once craved and followed with rabid vigor - is decreasing at an alarming rate.

    For a company who's core functionality is based on the sale of GFX technology that poses the odd concern no doubt and a stern prompt to up the effort on diversification.

    I feel sure they will have made sweepingly grand sales statements with regard to the release of Crysis, Quake-wars, Unreal Tournament 3 and Gears of War; and now look like the lying t***s they always were.

    I bet they tried to paint the picture where we all waited with baited breath in 2004 for Far Cry, Half-life 2 and Doom 3. But most of us are happy with technology that hasn't advanced much since those times ( i.e. I think my 1 gig 3200xp 256 Mb 9800pro of the time would have a decent stab at most things produced on the 360 and PS3 if it still existed, especially at the HD resolution 640p ahem).

    Most leading edge gfx cards could probably run the GTA IV Liberty City gfx well above 60 fps at higher resolutions.

    But we all seem to be happy in equally cheap and cheerful machines, and without any cheating - making online gaming actually a better experience on console than most PC games (once you get over the loss of mouse that is).
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 16:07

  • goon-uk #53 4 years ago

    Got to agree with the man. I've done it, every body has but it is definitely killing PC gaming and if PC gaming dies console development will slow to a crawl.

    As for how to get around it? They could always take away the charge for games completely, Make them digitally distributed and you pay for how much you play like a mmo. Download it, buy a month for £15 so you can play the game. Have a limit on certain games like COD4 for example so that once you have payed over a certain amount you don't have to anymore.

    It would benefit people who pick up a game, play it and get bored within a week and put it down. They are saving money and still getting to play it but it would also mean the user who plays it for a long time still only pays the current price for it.


    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 16:13

  • brinlarden #54 4 years ago

    reason: if your poor and wouldnt have bought it anyway. only reason.

  • Nithron #55 4 years ago

    How about because the damn game companies insist on imposing ridiculous, draconian restrictions on the way you use the software you've just bloody paid quite a lot of money for, on hardware you also legally own?

    Tell you what. Get the publishers to stop being bastards and people'll stop ripping 'em off.
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 16:22

  • JoeJett #56 4 years ago

    Hi guys. I don't really know much about this issue, but can say I truly hope it doesn't come down to this (a trend of electronic registrations requiring internet access).

    I have a question. We see Rockstar North being completely tight-lipped about GTAIV for the PC. Most people are sure it will in fact HAPPEN, but not sure when.

    Could this be a strategy on their part, and if so, is it a strategy that could work in the long run: release the console version first, make loads and loads of money to recouperate development costs and get the profits started, then release a PC version months or even a year later ... by that time it's all just profit anyway and if there's some degree of piracy, it's effect on the bottom line will be negligable? People who want to play it that badly will buy the console version. Those who are will to wait are probably more casual gamers anyway, will see it (perhaps discounted) and pick up the box as an afterthought, etc.

    As I said I don't know a lot about the issue, but could this idea be possible ... and viable?

  • Gaol #57 4 years ago

    "Online distribution/platforms (à la Steam) is probably the most obvious way to go for the PC. And it will just pave the way for the consoles. "

    Couldn't agree more, this has to be the answer. I don't like DRM on music because it ties you to one manufacturer's hardware - but this doesn't really matter on a single format (Windows) market.

  • smelly #58 4 years ago

    @Arbiter

    "How you justify it: It's called try before you buy. "


    Pretty much 99.999% of games have a demo nowadays - so dont give me that shit



  • goon-uk #59 4 years ago

    There are a lot of PC games you buy, play for 5 minutes to see how it runs. If it does run you might complete it and then thats it. If it doesn't run like it should you never touch it again. £30 down the drain and thats why people download games. Specially something like Crysis.

    Had they released half of crysis, for £10 to let people get a feel for the game and the multiplayer, See how it runs then if they wanted they could purchase the second half for another £10 a lot more people would have bought it.

    At £30, it's to much of a risk with many modern PC games whether they will run or not and that isn't just the developers fault. It's company's like Dell, HP etc making PC's that can't run anything but word and IE giving people false delusions their £400 desktop can run Crysis because it's got "vista"
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 16:20

  • Svecke #60 4 years ago

    More intrusive DRM does not equal more sold copies of your game.

    More intrusive DRM -does- equal bad customer experiences.

    Bad customer experiences equals less sales.


    Please, Bioware, this is not rocket-science.
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 16:21

  • YourMessageHere #61 4 years ago

    More and more, I find myself regretting buying games because they are simply not as good as their asking price. Consider the following:

    - Games cost money - PC games less than console games, but still it's all money, and in common with most people I can't afford to throw money away.
    - PC gaming hardware, especially graphics cards, mr NVIDIA man, costs FAR TOO MUCH MONEY.
    - PC games are increasingly console ports of unknown quality, since developers in their infinite wisdom have largely decided to stop regarding the PC as a major format.
    - PC games are increasingly released in a buggy, seemingly unfinished state anyway, and paying for a game you later find is unfinished hardly engenders a willingness to do so again.
    - PC games are increasingly designed only for high-end PCs and frequently do not scale back properly for older machines, and reviews rarely tell you about this.
    - PC games are increasingly not given demos, even when they appear on XBL or PSN.
    - DRM that messes up hardware or is simply more hassle than it's worth is everywhere nowadays.
    - I've tried taking games backto the shop and failed before.

    That's a whole slew of reasons to not buy a game and instead download it. Like Arbiter says, try before you buy. Many games I have illegitimately downloaded I have subsequently bought. Others that I've not bought, it's no different in effect from me playing someone else's legit copy on their own PC and deciding not to buy it myself. As many others have said, Steam is the best way yet to combat piracy, maybe it's circumnavigable but then so is the security on consoles. Most people buy and play Steam games legitimately.

  • paketep #62 4 years ago

    Carmack is a good programmer, no more, no less. Sweeney and company are sissies that are moving to consoles because we didn't want to buy their fifth copy of the same game with better graphics. Ken Levine is an idiot who can't decide if games should have a history or not.

    That said, I'm not going to buy any more games with digital authentication like Mass Effect and Spore. I refuse to be treated like a thief after having bought hundreds of games in the last 25+ years. Except from Valve. Damn you, Portal!

  • japstersam #63 4 years ago

    'See stupid DVD's with unskippable warnings'
    said warnings normally last about 30 seconds, and stop retards suing them. probably the same retards that pirate the game.
    if you cant afford the game, don't buy it.

  • Transcendent #64 4 years ago

    I don't need to "justify" anything. I'm not religious, and I don't care for the religion of morality.

    This makes me want to download some games.

  • dsmx #65 4 years ago

    I want to ask nvidia boss this question "How can you possibly justify copy protection schemes when they have no effect on reducing piracy"

  • TagemandBagem #66 4 years ago

    Again, COD4 PC shits all over this lame excuse. This is just the same as Eli Roth whining piracy killed 'Hostel 2''s Box Office returns. How much do you want to bet '300' was pirated 1000X more than 'Hostel 2' yet because it was actually a quality movie it did exceptionally well at the box office.

    At least 50% of the reason to buy a PC game is the MP aspect which is either unavailable or difficult to access if you are using a pirated copy. The fact is devs are ignoring the PC in favour of the consoles and it has little if anything to do with piracy. UBI's complete castration of the Rainbow 6 series demonstrates that.

    The people getting on a faux-moral highhorse over video game piracy are just fucknuts.
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 16:47

  • Crembo #67 4 years ago

    But... The most common reason for piracy is one:
    They just don't have money for the game.
    I read a huge topic , or more like poll on TPB. It was over 50 pages. I checked lots of posted , and most of them just said "I don't have money for games. But I would buy them if I had money."

  • Sorbicol #68 4 years ago

    Nice to see that once again someone in the industry misses the point. How a company treats its customers has more bearing on whether or not they will illegally download rather than the amount of DRM they stuff onto the disk that someone will invariably break after a couple of days anyway. I'll point towards a company like Stardock there - they make a specific point of not adding DRM to any of their products they fully involve their customers in the game development process and as a result release excellent games without a significant piracy problem. Yes they release niche games - Galactic Civilisations and now Sins of a Solar Empire - but to be honest PC gaming is increasingly becoming a niche market anyway. Valve pretty much have the FPS market sewn up with the Half-Life and Counter-strike games, I would expect the battlefield games to port to console soon given that Xbox live is now a viable, reliable network (or so it would seem) Lastly, the modding community for PC will always outlast console gaming but it doesn't make any moneyf or the developers unless they are cunning enough to employ those modders into making their next generation of games for them. Hello Valve again!

    If you try to create the hype and marketing power behind Halo 3 and GTA IV for a PC game, then people will always priate just so they can be involved in the whole spectacle. It creates a rod for their own back. He should really be concentrating on their approach to PC gaming rather than just spouting random rubbish about "excessive pirating".

    I seem to remember getting my PS1 chipped anyway so I could play copied NTSC format games - mostly because I couldn't afford the £50+ PS1 games that cost back then, so I fail to see why this piracy problem is so endemic to PC games..

  • captain_cupcake #69 4 years ago

    Well every pirated game is a lost sale obviously, and it's perfectly fair to have the right to resell the same content over and over again on different/same media, even when you advertise it as "perfect sound forever" - or whatever.

    I'm not condoning piracy, but for all the kiddies who shout "bad evil pirate", I just hope you've never borrowed and read a book from a friend, picked up someone else's newspaper on the train, etc... I guess the billions poured into lobbying and 'education' have really paid off.

    I can't see why people aren't looking at Stardock, never mind Steam - huge sales and zero DRM. I think Greg's on(to) something.

  • Frosty840 #70 4 years ago

    Reading this actually made me go back to my PC copy of Guitar Hero 3.
    Pretty decent for a conversion, but there's still no DLC for it, and that, frankly, makes me sad.

    What with the modding scene pretty much having made DLC irrelevant in this case, I can't really complain, though.

    While I can't really see how anyone is going to create the next generation of games console without simply doing what Apple do (i.e. take some off-the-shelf parts, brand them and locks the hardware spec), I have a nasty feeling that that kind of monitored, proprietary system might be the way of the future; Not DRM software, but an entire DRM-ridden computer system.

    The recent MSN music debacle might change things on that front, though.

    Changing focus for a moment, though, the nVIDIA chap says that free after-market features will entice us to buy software. I think the opposite is true.
    There have been games that I have looked at and said to myself "I'll wait to see what the patch brings", and there has never been a patch, and I've not bought the software. My waiting for a feature cost that software sales, and quite possibly those poor sales meant that the "feature" I was waiting for (software that works is a feature, now, boys and girls) was never released.

    I don't know.
    I started focusing my money on the consoles partly because the majority (so it seems to me) of the PC games market seems to have the idea that they should release their game when they run out of development money, and then let the cash we spend on the broken game pay for them to fix it.

    Personally, I can see the console market going the same way. I've seen many things in GTA4, for example, that simply indicate a lack of testing and the knowledge that they can patch it. A small example is the fact conversations with your mates, when coming home from a drinking session, do not continue if you call a cab.
    Little things like that were where we started seeing patches in PC games, and they're the thin end of the wedge toward releasing all-out broken products.

    Don't quite know where that leaves us on the piracy issue, but I think we really need to think about losing the focus on day-one sales. I realise most markets these days focus absolutely on day-one sales, and the numbers guys really don't like "different" concepts, but the software market isn't like any other market in most ways, and this is simply another way in which it is different.

  • tinners #71 4 years ago

    Hang on ...

    "how can anyone justify it now???"

    What? before it was consired cool and hip to the beat was it?

  • dryden555 #72 4 years ago

    Console piracy is RAMPANT so I find it amusing when companies neglect to mention this rather important fact.

  • tinners #73 4 years ago

    yeah torrenting is taking off and its been going on for years...... but now the people must stop.....they must...err think of the children??

  • subtlesnake #74 4 years ago

    "More intrusive DRM does not equal more sold copies of your game. "

    Lots of people make this claim, but I don't see where the evidence is. How do you know that DRM doesn't reduce the amount of casual piracy (say, trying to use a friends' copy of a game), and thus make it more likely that a person in this situation (who might not typically download games) will buy the actual game?

    And how do you quantify the impact that 'consumer goodwill' will have on a games sales? In these sorts of discussions I always see a lot of assumptions, and people seemingly believing what they want to believe and *then* interpretting the available evidence in light of those existing preconceptions. Some claims that bother me:

    1.) Game X sold well, so piracy isn't a factor. But the question is how well the game would have sold had there not been pirated copies available, especially given that PC sales for multiplatform titles typically lag way behind the console sales for the same titles (on their respective platforms).

    2.) Piracy is only a problem because of restrictive copy protection. But then why was copy protection introduced in the first place (given its obvious expense), and where's the actual evidence supporting this link? Just because *you* might have decided to pirate a game due to restrictive protection, doesn't mean you can just extrapolate your behaviour over the entire user base.

    3.) Pirates wouldn't have bought the game anyway. Again, unproven, and it seems a little disingenuous to me to suggest that every pirate falls in the category of being without income, or in the category of being completely uninterested in paying money for something he or she enjoys.

    4.) If a person wouldn't have bought the game anyway, there's no moral claim you can make against them, and no cost at all to the developer. The very fact that the pirate is getting value out of a service, that he isn't paying for, and would pay for (if he was 'moral'), is enough to see that the attitude underlying piracy is costly, and can be criticised.

    5.) Piracy is equivalent to simple theft. If someone with no disposable income manages to download a game, where is the direct loss equivalent to that suffered by a shop who has had its physical property taken?
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 18:01

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #75 4 years ago

    Online re-verification of legitimately-bought product every 10 days?

    Wow, I think we have a new winner of the Dumbest Idea Ever award.

  • L42yB #76 4 years ago

    Here is a true case study for you:

    When I was younger, I had no money as my parents are not loaded and I was still at school. It was hard enough buying a PC, let alone buying all the new games that came out and so my only choices were to either pirate the games or not have them at all.

    Posed with this choice at my young age I naturally opted to pirate the games I wanted to play.

    However, as soon as finished studying and began earning enough money to purchase the games, I did. I have not pirated a game for several years now since I earn a good salary.

    My justification is simple: When I was younger and I could not afford to buy the game, pirating it did not result in a lost sale for them, since I would not have been capable of getting the game no matter how much I wanted it. Since I have been able to afford the games, I have always bought them as I want to support the devs and I like actually owning the game legally.

    I do not feel bad for the pirating I did in my earlier days, and I honestly feel that I would not be as addicted to gaming as I am now had I not pirated and played all those games when I was at school. Therefore game devs have made MORE money from me now because I pirated games then.

    So there - a valid argument based on actual events where piracy resulted in more money for the games industry overall :)

  • wired009 #77 4 years ago

    Unless you are a ten year old with no money there is not much reason why you shouldn't pay for games that you actually play. If you can't afford to play games, then you should be doing something more useful with your time. There's a reason why there are such things as game demos and friends...so you can try games before you buy them. Any real gamer knows that we are voting with our money. If we feel no obligation to support good developers, then the games that we enjoy disappear. That's why the PC gaming platform has been suffuring so much in recent years with exceptions of a handful of franchises. If developers don't create content for the PC then consumers have no reason to buy hardware. Nvidia understands this and that's why they are against piracy.

  • Gaol #78 4 years ago

    I hate these arguments trying to justify piracy as acceptable if you don't have the money.

    Get a fucking job like the rest of us and stop leeching off developers, the state, and me. If you seriously can't afford a £16.99 game from Play you should have better things to be doing.

  • L42yB #79 4 years ago

    Unless you are a ten year old with no money there is not much reason why you shouldn't pay for games that you actually play. If you can't afford to play games, then you should be doing something more useful with your time.

    Logic like that will simply result in there being less gamers. Which will result in even fewer sales... saying that poor people shuld simply adopt cheaper hobbies is not going to get more people buying games...

    I think that if you truly cannot afford to buy a game (or music or media - whatever) then pirating it will not result in the loss of revenue for anyone - and it may result in more revenue in the future if that person reaches a point where they can afford to pay for that media.

    The real crime is when people who really can afford to pay choose to pirate the games anyway - that is unjustifiably selfish. But such is the nature of many people... I don't think that punishing your customers with all of these methods to prevent piracy is a good solution.

  • Skeletor #80 4 years ago

    A simple example from the real world for all the "noble moralisers" and industry crybabies:

    Played the free Trackmania Nations Forever, liked it and decided to buy Trackmania United Forever. Released a few days ago but unfortunately none of the shops around here (living in Germany) has it and they tell me that they don't have a clue when they eventually get it. Amazon has it but delivery time is 2 weeks. The pirated version on the other hand is minutes away!
    And the industry has the nerve to ask why so many people decide to "try now and pay (maybe) later"...

  • L42yB #81 4 years ago

    @Skeletor -

    Another fair argument. Is there anything wrong with ordering (and paying for) a game on Amazon, and then donwloading and playing a pirated verseion while you wait for delivery? They got their money, didin't they?

    Altho digital distribution will fix this problem, so that you can simply download the game legitimately :)

    What TellTale did with Sam & Max was awesome. You can buy and download the game from the site straight away, and they send you the discs and packaging, which arrives later. So there is no need to wait for the discs, you can play straight away.

  • dsmx #82 4 years ago

    Lets justify piracy then: No obnoxious DRM schemes, the ability to not use the disk, try the game before you buy, sometimes the game simply isn't available where you live, games are too expensive or not worth the asking price. Those are just the obvious ones.

    To those who say why companies bother putting DRM on the games in the first place if there so expensive the answer is quite obvious, the developers have no choice they have to be seen to be doing something about piracy the shareholders and the law essentially forces them to. However they don't need DRM schemes that will stop you from being able to play the game when they decide you can't play it any more, nor do they need DRM schemes in the first place as they do not stop piracy and only serve to increase it.

  • dryden555 #83 4 years ago



    "software piracy is wrong because I say it wrong, now go to your room." then cue to me rolling my eyes.

  • Skeletor #84 4 years ago

    @L42yB
    Sure thing. That's exactly what I'm gonna do. Imho Nadeo are very generous offering Trackmania Nations Forever for free and that's why I'm definitely going to pay for United Forever. But how many people out there who maybe don't enjoy the online play so much are going to do the same?
    The industry really needs to stop whining and bitching and start delivering. And no, charging around the same price for a download as for the box is not exactly what I would call "fair price"...

  • wired009 #85 4 years ago

    "Logic like that will simply result in there being less gamers."
    -Exactly.
    "Which will result in even fewer sales... saying that poor people shuld simply adopt cheaper hobbies is not going to get more people buying games..."
    -Did I actually say that? Poor people should play less video games;ok, no one is advocating banning them from playing. Poor people might buy fewer games, that's reality (or not because that's what credit cards are for). Everyone should still avoid pirating, obviously I don't agree with your fewer sales argument.
    "I think that if you truly cannot afford to buy a game (or music or media - whatever) then pirating it will not result in the loss of revenue for anyone - and it may result in more revenue in the future if that person reaches a point where they can afford to pay for that media."
    -Logic like that will simply result in people who are never able to get ahead.

    PS: I know I refer to poor people as "them" but I fall into that category too tbh.
    Edited by 2 at 07/05/08 @ 19:07

  • L42yB #86 4 years ago

    @wired009 -

    It didn't stop me from getting ahead... why should it stop others?

  • wired009 #87 4 years ago

    I'm sure the industry will be glad to have you as a poster child for people who got ahead while playing lots of video games. Just make sure not to mention that you didn't buy half of them...Lol.

  • mkreku #88 4 years ago

    Instead of using draconian DRM methods (and therefore punishing the paying consumer but not the pirates), they should just turn it around and REWARD the paying consumer (but not the pirate). Just ship a code with each game and let people register and download patches and add-ons and such with it.

  • Bumhug360 #89 4 years ago

    Piracy has been killing the industry for the last 25 years yet last year just like the year before sales were up and more money was spent games. Piracy will not kill the pc gaming industry, releasing unfinished games, shoddy console ports, low quality titles will. The attitude that you need to develop for the best hardware out there needs to change as well, make games look good on an average pc not require you to pay £300+ every couple of years to upgrade, if you make games that will look good and run at a decent speed on PC's people actualy own they may just go out and buy the game.

    Customers arent stupid, if you sell them something you say is really good and it turns out to be crap they wont buy from you again. Take championship manager, for years it was the biggest selling pc game in the UK, SI Games then fell out with Eidos and the franchise was passed to other developers. The first CM game they released was shit, yet it sold bucketloads, it was a brand name people knew and trusted. The second one didnt sell so well, was this due to piracy or due to the fact that paying customers thought the last game was a steaming pile of crap and wont waste their money again.

    DRM has been made out as pure evil by many websites and consumers fear a DRM product will eat their babies and defecate in their fridge at night, as a result Mass Effect on the PC will sell less than it would of done had it come with just basic copy protection, this downturn in sales will of course be blamed on pirates who manage to crack the protection in a week.

    I am in the same boat as L42yB, when I was in high school could probably afford about 4 games a year, yet I had a massive games collection. Had I of not pirated games I wouldnt of had the interest I have now. Two years ago bought a 360, a year ago bought a Wii, and 6 months got a PS3 free. In that time I have bought 35 full price games which works out more than a game a month
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 19:27

  • L42yB #90 4 years ago

    @wired009 -

    That made me lol :)

    EDIT:
    @Bumhug360 -

    Hear hear! Piracy is frequently used as an excuse for poor sales, even though there are lots of far more obvious and apparent reasons why the game didn't sell. And good games still make good money, despite the fact that people can pirate them.

    nuff said :)
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 19:42

  • Windsong #91 4 years ago

    Question:

    Why is it that all the major retailers (Wal-Mart, Best Buy, etc) sell gazillions worth of 100-disc blank DVD packs every week, hmm? Is it because people want to burn and store "family photos" on 8.5 DL discs or 25 gig Blu-Ray discs? Uh..I dont think so! It is so they can burn backups of data such as PC/Xbox ISOs, mp3s, hdtv .ts caps and Xvid movies. Hard drives (non solid-state) are notoriously unreliable for long-term storage. I paid cold, hard cash for Bioware's rpgs Baldur's Gate I & II, Icewind I & II as well as Planescape, but I'll be damned if I'm going to buy Mass Effect after the galactic sellout to EA and the royal bumfuck known as SecuROM to spy on my pc activities. Cmon, some of the price tags for xbox360 and ps3 games are approaching 80 bucks!! Do you honestly think Im going to fork over that kind of cash and not have a backup and a way to play that backup in case of a scratched disc? While I LOVE getting a map of Baldurs Gate, or say a figurine in the collectors edition of Bioshock, I will cease all purchasing entirely if they continue with such draconian trends in their games.

    Do any of you realize how much green Roy Taylor takes in every month?? It isn't about money to him..its about control. Total control of the populace. If even .00001% of the pc players can pirate, he loses sleep at night. If i might borrow a cliche from the mind of Chris Carter (X-Files), I think we should all "Fight the future".

    Ben Franklin said, He who would sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither.

  • Ryuken #92 4 years ago

    "EDIT: Anyway, free content for games after they have been released is almost a distant memory. Epic still makes bonus packs for the terribly underselling UT3, but Infinity Ward can't be bothered to release the new CoD4 maps on the PC... "

    ? So you missed the free maps for Crysis, the new adventure for The Witcher, the two unit packs for SupCom, the TF2 updates (new maps+game modes+weapons), the free maps for WiC, etcetera. Just because console gamers aren't allowed to get as much for free because MS/Sony/Ninty want to squeeze more money out of them doesn't mean that publishers/devs should do the same on PC. It's nobody's platform and that's the greatest blessing ever. If the Infinity Ward lads are smart then they'll release those DLC maps for free on PC.

  • macmurphy #93 4 years ago

    I don't play pirated games but it's mostly for a practical reason.

    I used to pirate on the Amiga - you'd get new games all the time but it rendered everything superficial. You would play it for a bit but whenever it got tough, you'd quit and take the next game. Also, there wasn't really much buzz with a new game as you got something new every week and you always had one eye on the next in line.

    If you don't pirate games, you have to graft to pay for it. You can only afford a few games a year, so everytime you get one you really appreciate it. You get a buzz unwrapping it and putting it the disk tray. You treasure it, you play it to death, you find out its intricacies and the you give it the love the designer spent on it.

    This sounds like new age hippy bollocks, but its true. All the games I've ever appreciated have been things I've spent time on - I still remember the excitement of my Dad bying me Kick Off 2 even though it wasn't my birthday. Loved that game. If you can only afford a game every so often this is what happens. Even rich people will probably never know the enjoyment a game can offer, though to be fair they're probably too busy sniffing coke off hookers to care.

    My point is two fold. Firstly you will get a lot more out of a game if you paid for it and spend time with it. Secondly don't ever pretend there's a reason to pirate. You're a a thieving pikey twat that is either making the rest of us pay more, or cutting down potential development spend and thereby reducing our game experience. Get a job and pay like everyone else. It is just like stealing from a shop, you just haven't got the minerals to do that. So not only are you a thief, you're a shit one.

    If you can't afford it, get a better job. Not playing stuff will give you ambition. It will also make you appreciate the games you play.

  • AOFanboi #94 4 years ago

    <em>Pirating is STEALING...</em>

    No, it never is, never was, is not referred to as that in any of the cases the RIAA and friends bring before the courts - only in the propaganda they use in situations where they will not be held accountable for their misuse of the term. And they do that because people like you will come to their "defense" and accuse people who object to the mis-use of the term for condoning piracy.

    Pirating (in this context) is ILLEGAL USE OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. Which is something else than stealing, which applies to PHYSICAL property. Just because there is a law covering A and another law covering B does not make A = B.

    The games industry is a business. What they need to do is two things:

    1) Make stuff people want to buy. Don't make SHIT and blame bad sales on piracy. The world does not owe you a success in business, you must earn it.
    2) Make people want to buy the stuff. Don't treat them like criminals by adding DRM, driver-wrecking "copy protection" and other crapola that makes life WORSE for a paying customer than for a leech/pirate.

    Brad Wardell of Stardock has the right idea: The people pirating your game are irrelevant - they are not you customers, just like people who leave a game store without purchasing anything aren't. The people paying for the game are your customers.

  • Nallen #95 4 years ago

    Another 100+ comments half of which I presume are trying to justify theft. Same opinion as the guy in the article and as I've stated before, it's pathetic to try and somehow let yourself of the hook and inexcusable to steal.

  • UncleLou #96 4 years ago

    Pirating is STEALING...

    No, it never is, never was, is not referred to as that in any of the cases the RIAA and friends bring before the courts - only in the propaganda they use in situations where they will not be held accountable for their misuse of the term. And they do that because people like you will come to their "defense" and accuse people who object to the mis-use of the term for condoning piracy.

    *sigh*

    No, it pretty much is. It's a perfectly valid analogy used in legal science all the time.

    It's onyl legal laymen who keep insisiting on how it is something entirely different by clinging to one element of theft while ignoring all the blatantly obvious similarities.
    Edited by 1 at 07/05/08 @ 22:45

  • el_pollo_diablo #97 4 years ago

    Of course copying games is stealing.

    What they need to do is make game boxes and manuals feel special. Bin the dvd cases and make something really special that people will want to own.


  • Stoatboy #98 4 years ago

    Could someone from the "piracy equals theft" camp please explain to me where I stand on the large number of CDs I bought after having listened to the album via MP3s I copied from mates then?

    Seriously - I've got a considerable number of CDs that I haven't ever used even once, not even to rip them, because I already had the MP3s. These days I rarely listen to radio, so the majority of the music I buy is recommendations from friends, which leads to me copying their mp3s to check it out. If I like it I buy it. If I don't I don't. I still buy as many CDs as I ever did.

    According to the "piracy=theft" camp I'm guilty of theft the moment I copy the MP3s (even if I don't ever listen to them). If I buy the CD I'm still guilty of the theft of the MP3s. No-ones lost anything in any way shape or form, the music industry has gained my cash, but apparently I'm still a thief. If that's the case I may as well not buy the CD at all, surely, since I'm a thief regardless?

    So, some clarification on this one would be good, ta.

  • YourMessageHere #99 4 years ago

    If you steal something, the single most important part of what you have done is not that you took it, but that you have taken something away from somebody else and deprived them of it and any livelihood associated with it. Data piracy does not do this, the person whose property you have taken a copy of still has it. Ergo, it's not the same at all.

    This is not complicated. Turning left is an action that is similar to turning right in all but a small detail, that doesn't mean the difference in outcome is irrelevant or insignificant. People generally see through all the hype and sales rhetoric surrounding games; why don't people see through the piracy=theft rhetoric? It's a piss-poor excuse used by the industry to try to obfuscate the fact that the ones primarily responsible for the success of a game are its creators and publishers, and if it's not successful then it's therefore primarily them who are at fault.

  • hulahoops #100 4 years ago

    [AOFanboi]The games industry is a business. What they need to do is two things:

    1) Make stuff people want to buy. Don't make SHIT and blame bad sales on piracy. The world does not owe you a success in business, you must earn it.
    2) Make people want to buy the stuff. Don't treat them like criminals by adding DRM, driver-wrecking "copy protection" and other crapola that makes life WORSE for a paying customer than for a leech/pirate.[/AOFanboi]

    It's weird. You'd have thought they'd have thought of those points before.

    Oh wait, they did.

    Few people would argue that first person games work better and are cheaper on PC. And yet COD4 on console outsells its PC counterparts to the point where it's only worth developing a PC version because its comparatively simple to do.

    I may be missing something; I haven't used pirated games for years, partially because there's no commitment to stick at a game if you haven't paid for it, and partially because its killing the PC industry, but can you explain how this fits into the pro piracy argument?
    Edited by 1 at 08/05/08 @ 00:04

  • ChrisOTR #101 4 years ago

    SpaceDan: I agree with the sentiment but abhor the DRM.

    Exactly.

  • miiiguel #102 4 years ago

    "there's no commitment to stick at a game if you haven't paid for it"
    I feel that too, I wouldn't "respect" a game as much if it was for free.

    To the fellows who think piracy is not so bad, or even good: keep doing it..., but don't whine on forums because of these measures, I mean, some people pirate publishers stop publishing, each one does what one has to do.

  • Mashum #103 4 years ago

    Only the most disingenuous cunt could persuade themselves that pirating a game is not stealing it. It's not a debating club, large scale pirating costs developers potential sales to some ratio per pirated copy. This lost revenue makes the PC increasingly less attractive for developers and may well finally make it redundant as a gaming platform. The lost revenue is also someone's wages.

    I'll admit to being a pirate in the past on a chipped xbox,and on PC (also mp3s by the bucketload). I'm glad to say it's something I've left behind and I no longer give myself brain aneurysms trying to thread some sort of logical justification through what is simply stealing from real people.
    Edited by 1 at 08/05/08 @ 00:30

  • artix #104 4 years ago

    If PC Games cant be pirated anymore, the hardware companies(Intel, AMD, Nvidia, etc..) are going to miss a large part of their sales in third world countries.

  • bicky316 #105 4 years ago

    It seems that it isn't as easy as "not making shit games" - Crytek abandons PC

    Also Skeletor, you can download Trackmania United Forever from the website - Here. I'm thinking of doing the same :)
    Edited by 1 at 08/05/08 @ 00:40

  • Lamb #106 4 years ago

    I bought Civ 4 on the day it came out because I love the previous games in the series, now imagine being frustrated at not being able to play it to the end of a huge map to this day because of memory stack overflow errors in game.

    Who is the thief/con-artist when the game doesn't do what it says on the box? PC Minimum requirements should mean like what it did in the old days it should play comfortably and smoothly at medium settings.

    WHO IS THE CONMAN when it doesn't?

    Oh and NVIDIA. how about Gothic 3 whats with not being able to play it a year after it comes out and that stupid sun glare effect that pops around at night or in caves in the game?

    HOW ABOUT SOME QUALITY CONTROL!!!

    THIEVES=PIRATES=CONMEN, ALL THOSE ARE NOT EQUAL!

    I want better games and I have no problem paying for a decent product. But consider piracy striking a balance for freedom when the aforementioned is neglected, when legalese fine print point to point rears its ugly head (dvds), do you think violence only happens in video games just look at human history. And I'm not saying that last part to be intimidating, just that people have demands and needs. Video games are not a need and if you don't continue to innovate like Nintendo and Xbox Live the industry can go pear shaped into the red.

    I support quality games with quality stories done by quality people. There is much more that clearly needs to be done in the planning stages for quality PC games. I don't hate Sid or Soren for Civ 4 but clearly that game still has issues same with Gothic 3.

    I've bought more games/hardware than most people and would put most devs/shills here to shame but still money though overated makes a huge difference to people everyday life and the charm of a guilt trip wears thin for downloading a couple of games you never heard of in the first place.

    Yes there are some gems out there that constitute a franchise that one can choose to support but a gameing afficionado is not required to support every developer under the sun.

  • Stoatboy #107 4 years ago

    @Mashum: So what you're saying is "I was a pirate and therefore a disingenuous cunt, and now I'm not, but everyone else who pirates now is!"

    Sorry, let's go over that again. You seem to be saying "I've just admitted that I think I was a thief (despite not actually being one) and lacking in sincerity but I'm all better now, but people who are doing what I was doing are wrong and are lacking in sincerity, and yet somehow my opinion now should be taken seriously, despite me still not understanding one of the basic principles behind my own argument."

    By your own definition of pirates being disingenuous cunts, and you having been a pirate, your own opinion is fucking worthless. Well done.

    If you sincerely believe piracy is theft please have a stab at answering my question in comment 106 (if I counted correctly). I'd really love to hear a satisfactory answer. Thanks.

    I do reserve the right to think you're a spineless coward if you don't try to answer, and I'll probably think you're stupid if you try and fail, but I promise I'll admit you're right if you can prove piracy actually equals theft. Regardless, I promise I won't call anyone a cunt, not even you personally, despite you having - in my eyes - labelled most of the people I know, have known, and ever will know - including my Mum - a cunt, just because they've infringed copyright.

  • dsmx #108 4 years ago

    The only thing that hurts game sales is the developers and publishers doing stupid things like not fixing bad bugs before release, being a bad game, intrusive and draconian DRM schemes, etc. People who pirate would not of purchased the game, they are not your customers and it is not a lost sale if someone pirates your game. You never had that customer in the first place, why do games companies not realise this?

    For god sake people stop falling for the stealing=piracy line it is propaganda.

  • RyanT #109 4 years ago

    Stoatboy: Stop being a dick and making personal attacks on people. Your reasons and justification of everything sof ar has been incredibly flimsy and made redundant by the Data Protection Act (I think) quite a long time ago.

    A pirated game is obviously stealing. You have made an unsolicited, non-authorised copy of the game, just like if I saw someone invent something, I then went home, and completely ripped it off and made it for myself, even though he has overall copyright and ownership of said invention, with no changes whatsoever. That would be stealing, would it not? At the very least a stealing of an idea, for in some way my personal gain (by the fact I didn't have pay for it, therefore gaining the money I would normally have had to pay).

    Just because it is not an entirely physical object doesn't mean crap (despite the fact that in some sense, it is physical, even moreso when you consider thea ctual disk, packaging, etc). I have obtained the game without permission or authorisation (in this case meaning the original creator and sellers, and the money I would've had to pay that would act the sealing of the deal that I can have and play this game), and at the same time, have deprived someone of the money they should've rightfully gained for producing such a thing.

    Therefore, I have stolen, therefore, I am a criminal. I'll admit that myself - I have about 3/4 pirated games on my PC. But I'm not going to be an idiot about it and try to justify it to myself with weak excuses or broken logic that clings to the silly idea that just because I can't physically touch it like an apple that someone might steal from a shop, that nothing has been stolen. It has, as explained above.

    What I do take credence with is how they're dealing with piracy, and forgetting to tackle much bigger sources of piracy. The amount of Piracy in the West is a lot, lot smaller, and they're certainly not the source of the millions lost, nor is it anywhere near the main reason why PC gaming is dying. It's dying because consoles are becoming more attractive, don't contain so many uncertainties and variables as PC does (for both ends, developers and consumers who then have to make sure they can run the game), and aren't as expensive as PC gaming in general.

    Also, the idea that simply buying the CD later on after you've already obtained said illegal copies suddenly erases any crime is crap too.

    The copies of said files/game/whatever are merely on top of the unpaid for copies you've already obtained. Every time you illegally download, you automatically owe +1 to the original maker/publisher/etc. When you obtain a legal one, it is on top the still unpaid for version, therefore you still owe +1 to the original maker/publisher/etc. It only goes away if you went to them, admitted you stole it and beg for them to accept your payment to make the pre-existing copies legal.

    Every time I have downloaded and not paid for a Radiohead album (except for In Rainbows of course), I have made an illegal copy and stolen it. Buying the album from a store is a new, legal and authorised copy, on top of the copies that I haven't paid for, therefore am still guilty. It is not a strikeout system - I have still not paid for copies I would normally have had to, therefore the stealing still stands, whether I get a new bought and paid for one or not.

    Just to put it one more way, purely mathematical. I download 3 illegal copies of a Radiohead album, that each time I would normally have had to pay for, say, £5. I owe them £15. I then buy three new copies. I have paid them £15. BUT, unsurprisingly, I still owe them £15, because there's still the original three I normally would've and should've paid for, that are still not authorised and are still not legal copies.

    *sigh*
    Edited by 1 at 08/05/08 @ 04:39

  • LHH #110 4 years ago

    Bring back shareware! Ala Doom and Quake. I remember getting Doom on 5 floppy discs zipped up with PKZIP...

    Fav arguement over these 3 pages is the "want to see how it runs" one. I guess no one looks at system requirements anymore..>_>
    But who cares, hopefully the PC gaming scene dies and takes the high horse PC brigade and their "much deeper and better game experiences" with them.

  • Alandur #111 4 years ago

    Sun Age strategy game does sell very well, it has no copy protection and does run without trouble on old systems, it´s fun to play with only minor flaws and it was not hyped. Surprised?
    While I do not support piracy, I believe that by hyping a game too much you cause greed in a number of people. Besides that, many games released today are quite buggy, pretty unplayable. Large patches are being released on launch day. That is the foremost reason why many new games don´t sell as well as they could and should.

  • Katsumoto #112 4 years ago

    "But who cares, hopefully the PC gaming scene dies"

    Why thank you.. and I hope your mother dies in a freak yachting accident.

  • LHH #113 4 years ago

    Why thanks, I hope your sibblings and family members get cancer and die slow miserable deaths.

    Edit ... Feeling bitter today >_>
    Edited by 1 at 08/05/08 @ 09:05

  • Katsumoto #114 4 years ago

    at least -I- was quoting blackadder!

    Seriously though, no need to wish doom (as in, the doom of the pc) on the rest of us - it's a prevalent attitude amongst posters atm that I don't understand.
    Edited by 2 at 08/05/08 @ 09:21

  • LHH #115 4 years ago

    In that case, I apologise. Blackadder is awesome.

  • Katsumoto #116 4 years ago

    Hehe - no problem, I was being a bit aggressive regardless of the comedic connotations. It's what posting in comments' threads does to you! ;)

  • LHH #117 4 years ago

    :)

    Yeah, I did call it against all pc gamers. My grief is actually with Sapphire, they turned me off of PC gaming what with their shoddy hardware *grumbles*
    Nothing to do with the games really >_>

    ;)

  • spiny #118 4 years ago

    CD Checks: Bad
    Online Activation: Good
    Online Distribution: good
    Online distribution being more expensive than physical: Bad (/looks at steam vs Amazon)
    Relying on Activation servers to be around forever: Bad
    Steam:Good
    Lots of poor steam clones in my system tray (/points at EA Downloader):Bad
    Paying for stuff:Good
    Service *Subscription* model: Bad ("Death of a 1000 cuts": "bancrupcy of a 1000 debits";)
    Free stuff for paying customers: Good (/looks at infinity wards direction for cod 4 maps)

    Tell you what may work though:
    -- Download the game for a nominal fee
    -- Pay a small amount for each level you start playing

    Mind you, that'd mean that crap games made even less money :)

  • el_pollo_diablo #119 4 years ago

    If you did your school homework and someone else came along and copied all your answers off you, you'd call them a thief, not an 'illegal user of my intellectual property'.

  • Fools #120 4 years ago

    To the game makers, here is the value proposition...

    If You make good games (even only ok games) and sell them at a reasonable price AND do not cripple them with supid protection methods....then I will buy and support your sales.

    However an "ok->good" game at 50 Euro a pop, forget it. Even an "excellent" game at 50 euro a pop...not worth it.

    If you change your pricing methods, I think the number of sales would increase signficantly.
    eg I see a game at 39,99->49,99 Euro, it looks interesting, but at that price tag, I have no intention of buying.
    I see the same game for 20 Euro, I will buy it without thinking twice.

    and yes, I have a good job, excellent salary, but as a married man, father, house and plenty of bills, I need to justify every purchase to myself before I buy anything.

  • Lamb #121 4 years ago

    In Gothic III whenever you had your character steal something and you were suspected of the act you always had three choices to respond to the allegations, one of the responses was BITE ME!

    Become too draconian with the laws then expect anarchy, not today, not tommorrow but definitely one day!

    Also all software is merely code, no matter how many security layers are added, time and persistence peels them away. Of course specialized knowledge is required but it seems someone is always willing to pick up the ball.

    Articles like this merely introduce another generation to piracy.

    I'll be glad if piracy didn't exist and everyone could afford everything but it does.

    Kids are blowing their money on games and with what little money they have left eat cheap fast food on the couch getting fatter. So its sad, fatten a developers wallet and get fat off of junk food.

    Thats how inane some of the anti-piracy respones are just like the two sentences right above this.

    Consider it a luxury and a privilege to download whatever the hell you want but remember above all else your time is precious!


  • rowsdower #122 4 years ago

    Steam & Stardock, that's the future. Digital Distribution is the best avenue PC developers have available to them. The Sins of a Solar Empire model is the best one in modern times. DRM free but with patches, multiplayer and extra content for paying customers. Stardock is a company that respects their customers, something most game companies have been increasingly unwilling to do. We are treated like cattle by games devs who then proceed to whine like schoolkids when their draconian drm issues or ridiculous pricing schemes come back to bite them in the ass.

    If you want your game to sell well and not get pirated, stick it on Steam or Impulse. Done. You get the infrastructure, you get the sales and you get the profit. Not only that but you'll save buckets of cash on packaging, printing and distribution. SOASE was number 1 in the pc gaming charts for ages and still rides in the top 5 even now. It isn't in any shops here in Ireland and yet it is doing so phenomenally well. That isn't just because it's a great game, but it's because the company who made it know how to deal with their customers.

    Unfortunately game developers and publishers have fallen into the same lethargic attitudes that the music industry was in three or four years ago (and, to a large extent, still are in) where they think that the old model will work forever and change is something to be feared. The people who adapt, the itunes and the Steams of this world, are the people who are reaping the huge rewards now. The people who are stuck in the past, the Cryteks, the Epics and the Time Warners are going to either have to adapt or die out.

    And you know what, we customers won't mind. We won't care. Because we will still be playing great games like Demigod and Half-Life 2 without them. We'll just be doing it digitally.

  • knocker #123 4 years ago

    Is copyright breach theft ? No.

    Simple really. It's morally wrong. Legally wrong. But NOT theft. Of course people involved in the media industry would love t o think otherwise.

    Find me a case of a pirate who has been convicted of theft as a result of copyright infringement ... here's one that hasn't.
    [link url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_sc otland/7291504.stm
    ]http://ne ws.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/sout...[/link]

    Check also the case of Dowling V United States. Admiteddly not in the UK - or even europe - but indicative of the way law treats this matter.

    If anyone has any verfiable evidence saying otherwise - then lets have them - I'm always willing to learn.

  • AOFanboi #124 4 years ago

    @UncleLou:

    <em>No, it pretty much is. It's a perfectly valid analogy used in legal science all the time.</em>

    Then I guess you can dig up a citation...? No?

    @Mashum:

    <em>Only the most disingenuous cunt could persuade themselves that pirating a game is not stealing it. It's not a debating club, </em>

    "Proof by insulting arrogance" rears its ugly head. Violations of intellectual property laws are covered by ENTIRELY DIFFERENT LAWS FOR A F*CKING REASON! If someone makes a pirated version of a Louis Vuitton handbag, they are infringing on intellectual property rights but THEY ARE NOT STEALING! And they are not raping, or speeding or a ton of other things that are illegal as well. They are infringing on someone's legal monopoly. When they sell that handbag there are still just as many real LV handbags to buy as there were before it - no handbags were stolen.

    </em>large scale pirating costs developers potential sales to some ratio per pirated copy.</em>

    As do the millions in African villages who do not even own a computer! They are not buying the games! "Lost" revenue! Look at these huge fantasy numbers!

    Heed Brad Wardell's words: The people paying for the game are the industry's customers, don't shit on them. Neither the pirates, the Bushmen of Africa nor the people browsing the store shelves without bouying a game are even part of the equation.

    @RyanT

    <em>A pirated game is obviously stealing. You have made an unsolicited, non-authorised copy of the game, just like if I saw someone invent something, I then went home, and completely ripped it off and made it for myself, even though he has overall copyright and ownership of said invention, with no changes whatsoever. That would be stealing, would it not? </em>

    No, no, a thousand times no! Not only are you using the stupid "proof by using the word 'obviously'" non-argument, you are even mixing different IP terms together into one mess, just to display your ignorance. Your strange story is akin to someone seeing a game and then going home and write their own. An inventor making a creation has copyright on his particular expression of the invention, not the process - though he could patent it. And even then, the patent would only grant him a commercial monopoly on the invention, which does not prevent DIY for the home. The existence of restaurants do not prevent me from cooking my own meals, for instance.

    <em>At the very least a stealing of an idea,</em>

    Well, I hope you never end up stealing a young woman's heart... You CANNOT steal ideas, only get them. Unless you bash the brains in on the poor sod who got the idea first or something I guess.

    And please stop branding anyone criticizing the industry's abuse of the terms stealing and piracy as "pro-piracy" - we are not. The industry is, though, since they insist that the PAYING customer - me - should e.g. need to have the CD spinning in the drive in order to play a game the "pirate" gets to enjoy without that hassle. SecuROM has been broken, deal with it - by removing it and stop treating paying customers as criminals.

  • Login Industry #125 4 years ago

    Now I'm not a pirate but I for one will not be buying Mass Effect PC with those kind of DRM restrictions in place.

    They're treating paying customers like thieves. You wouldn't want a policeman to come round your house every 10 days and search through all your things to make sure you've not got anything illegal amongst them, AND pay him to do it.

    No thanks, treating your customers like thieves is wrong. It's the principle of the thing.

    Unfortunately I think further restrictive DRM measures is the way of the future and this is turning me off PC gaming completely. As others have said, Stardock treats its customers fairly, others should do the same. Incentives for paying customers is the way to go, not punishing the hand that feeds you.

  • zehoo #126 4 years ago

    I think you'll find pc gamers are too busy giving money to blizzard to play world of warcraft to bother with games that are half finished, buggy and/or bad ports of console games. Why buy more games if you only play the one, so maybe they should start looking into how they can access the market by reducing blizzard's massive control of the pie instead of blaming something that is rampant on all systems(for example I while I was playing wow I didn't touch any other games but wow for more than a year). I buy all my games, and I've found as of late most PC games that I've bought have been buggy pieces of s**t that I haven't even bothered to finish (with exception of games that come out of valve that are single player, not so much multiplayer, valve have a habit of destroying/dumbing down multiplayer games that they purchase off mod teams DoD being a prime example). A lot of the games I've bought recently have also been off steam due to the ease of it (not COD4 as US$88.50 is a rip off price and I regret buying quake wars since I feel I didn't get my money's worth) Using digital distribution to cut on distribution costs really hasn't been correctly used yet either, it seems most companies tend to think gamers are idiots and will pay box price for a digital product, not going to happen. I also think the PC game industry might be suffering devs trying to be too generic in game releases to target as large a market as possible, but end up targeting no one since the game ends up bad, resulting in a lack of sales, resulting in a company needing something to blame for their poor quarterly results and piracy is an easy punching bag to take it out on rather than look at where they went wrong in production of the game. This is easily shown by how gta4 was already out on the net well before commercial release on the 360 yet still sold massively. If you make a good game, people will buy it, if you make a sh*t one, it wasn't piracy that caused your game not to sell, your game was sh*t. Commonly this is due to execs that have not much of a clue in what makes a game good having too much input into the making process, much like what is making a lot of movies bad at the moment.

    And then there's the obvious reason nvidia is ranting since not many people are buying their video cards atm, and there's an obvious reason for this as well, who needs to upgrade when nothing better than the 8800gtx has been released in almost 2 years now. They're all waiting for the next tech so chop chop.

  • captain_cupcake #127 4 years ago

    @ rowsdower - great post. Interesting to note, that now the music industry is belatedly realising all this, the paying consumer is getting a far more reasonable deal for music which is digitally distributed - why pay as much or more for a 128kps mp3, DRM'ed with no packaging, as a CD track?

    AOFanboi. Better than great, fantastic - I really wish I had the clarity of insight and general energy to write that! At last, some actual sense :D

  • craziii #128 4 years ago

    does cracking a game I bought = pirating? I been doing that forever. I really hate putting in the cd, it is annoying + the cd might get scratch sooner or later.

    online activation + serial is perfect really (perfection), but the 3 install for life thing(calling the publisher if you need more) and constant phoning home idea gets to me (mass affect + bioshock). it feels like I don't own the game which I paid 50 bucks for. why not do it like blizzard, for anyone to post anything on your forums, they will need a cd key of one of your games (this would have saved Ironlore from the bashing the stupid pirates gave them).

    don't make your customers angry, I am buying your games. why piss off your customers? DRM will make you lose more money, as players stop buying your game after running into the DRM for the first time.

    edit: basic DRM is needed though, to prevent a simple kind of piracy, like making a copy for a friend or neighbor :p
    Edited by 1 at 11/05/08 @ 22:46

  • ciroconsentino #129 4 years ago

    that's a complete bull...
    you can pirate games in next-gen consoles as much as you can in PCs. All you need is a mod chip, and there are plenty to choose from for both Xbox360 and PS3. I do not own a console, only a PC. Last one I has was a SNES. 360 and PS3 are way to expensive, and so are their games (at least here in Brazil).

    Their excuse is that PC hardware is too weak for next-gen games and that there are too many different hardware configs out there... another poor excuse.
    Isn't Vista's DirectX10 and its compatible video-cards created to minimize these hardware differences ?

    They need to start adapting games to PCs better, specially controllers (keyboard+mouse) and not make a direct port to PC. THAT, in my opinion, is the real reason why people are pirating PC games a lot these days.

  • squidwurrd #130 2 years ago

    I happen to just see this site and had to create an account just to say this. There is only one way to stop piracy and everyone has the wrong idea. YOu have to stop it at the source what I mean is rounding up ip addresses of all the people downloading the games and software and what not and bringing them to court. Every pirate knows that it is impossible to completly hide your ip address it is. If people are too scared to download the game because they might get caught they wont do it. Plain and simple.