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No place for "really hardcore shooters" - R6 Vegas 2 developer News
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by
Tom Bramwell
Rainbow Six Vegas 2 game designer Phil Therien reckons Ubisoft will steer clear of "really hardcore only shooters" because "the market was too narrow for it to be a viable business choice".
Speaking to Eurogamer readers in today's LiveText Interview, Therien said in answer to a question from lavalant: "We would like to be able to please both sides but compromises have to be made.
"We have some ideas to improve on the situation though - keep in mind however that we want our games to be accessible to as many people as possible, otherwise we just couldn't keep making games."
Lavalant had been asking whether we'd ever see more realistic shooters like Ghost Recon 1 reborn on current-gen hardware.
Therien also revealed that there won't be a demo version of Vegas 2. "We took the decision to spend our time on polishing the game and the demo option was cut," he said. "It's really time-consuming to create a demo and we needed the dev time to finish our game."
Other highlights from the LiveText session, which ran for a near-record 80 minutes:
- There's virtually no difference between the PS3 and 360 versions of Vegas 2, according to Therien. "A few minor differences in graphics as usual, but nothing major. We wanted it to be a choice of console and not a choice of content to play Vegas."
- Working on the Wii is "discussed at least once a week" in the Vegas 2 office. "No plans at the moment but we love the Wii and I would really like to do something on the platform."
- The Vegas 2 single-player mode is "about an hour longer". "There's actually more content in this one!" Therien joked.
- In-game Easter eggs include body armour with Therien's gamertag stamped on it.
- The drop from four-player to two-player co-op was made because the single-player levels couldn't easily support four. "Having more then four Rainbow bodies would have simply not fit in many places, so we had to move down to two."
- "Nothing is announced at the moment for DLC. If there is DLC announcements it would be made after the game has been on shelves for a while."
- Face mapping is back, and Phil's pretty sure it's on PS3 as well as 360.
- Therien would rather have lasers for eyes than be invisible.
Check out the Phil Therien LiveText Interview transcript to see what else came up.
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LiquidViolence
14/03/08 @ 18:59
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All the more reason you should show support for Ground Branch by Blackfoot studios, a console version would make me a happy bunny indeed.
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"Maybe time to find a new hobby, that doesn't involved lining the pockets of c*nts like him."
I feel exactly the same. I see the hardcore element of each genre disappearing each year, and more games becoming too easy, and "accessible" (urgh, hate that word), along with well-known franchises being nerfed to appeal to more people. Games that I like and enjoy are too rare, and in the future I expect there'll be little on offer for the serious gamers out there. Another hobby is the only option really, but it's such a bloody shame when gaming is easily more enjoyable than movies/music for me. |
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Rogue Spear we hardly knew ye...
If anyone is interested in somthing akin to the original Ghost Recon or Rogue Spear then I'll point you in the direction of the game LiquidViolence mentioned: Ground Branch by Blackfoot Studios Some stuff: SimHQ user poster info: http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.ph... Ground Branch Synopsis + forum: http://www.blackfootstudios.com/forums/i... Worth keeping tabs on at least... |
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SlackMaster
14/03/08 @ 21:03
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Get over it drama queens... another hobby!?! There is enough and will be enough to appeal to everyone and if a game is too easy you can always increase the difficulty. R6V1 was challenging but was still popular and I can't see them changing it too much. GRAW 1 was great but GRAW 2 was refind and even better, and I can see the same being true for R6V2.
Besides if you only have one hobby and that's gaming I'd say get a life. |
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seasidebaz
14/03/08 @ 21:10
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hardcore shooters are what put me off the entire fps genre, starting shortly after i gave my love to unreal tournament & quake 3 in the 90's, and finishing shortly after i sold the crud that was halo 3...
and @symbiote: edit:and @crofto: editedit:at every comment above me (given up reading now) if you're truly hardcore (which i seriously doubt...) you surely wouldn't mind giving the developers the millions of pounds in development costs just so they can make you a game? face it, casual gamers are expanding our hobby. and there are no hardcore gamers left.
Edited 2 times,
most recently on 14/03/08 @ 21:14
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seasidebaz
14/03/08 @ 21:16
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oh, and if gaming really is your only hobby... ever thought of a move to bridgend?
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Lavalant, SRSLY. If you're that intent on playing something that dry and simmish then why not join the TA and do some service in Afghanistan, where you'll find out just how far from 'realistic' games like Operation Flashpoint actually are. *Most* people actually just want to have fun, and R6 Vegas is just about the best balance between tactics and fun there is right now. That might change when the new Brothers in Arms arrives though ;)
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seasidebaz
14/03/08 @ 23:00
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@xiphos: hardcore players don't speak. they just play games. in fact they don't even play games, they just ingest them
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seasidebaz
14/03/08 @ 23:14
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@dsmx: hardcore players have already beaten the game before the designers were born.
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beastmaster
15/03/08 @ 00:09
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The more I see of this, the less I like. Looks a bit too bare. Plus don't want to go and search every bit of the single player to unlock stuff in multi. Not much to look forward to in terms of FPS now (is there?). COD new maps should keep me busy for a while. Seems to be getting 7/10 reviews
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SpeedyThing
15/03/08 @ 11:11
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Sad as it may be, is it really surprising that when a next-gen shooter costs £5,000,000 minimum they want to appeal to as many as possible?
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Don't be a tool MattyD
What your idea of fun might not be the next persons idea of fun. And you could apply that argument to every game ever. Want to play guitar, forget Guitar Hero and buy guitar and get some lessons. Want to play Football, get off your ass and get outside then. Want to play for Man U well you better get good enough. Developers and publishers are not just out to make money developing games they like, they are out to make as much money as possible. There is a similar problem in the racing simulation genre. Sure everyone wants to make money, but there doesn't appear to be the same love for making games as there used to be. A bunch of guys got together formed a company called Sim Factory and put a lot of their own time and money into developing a game called Arca Sim Racing. I think so far they only have another cash to produce 10,000 copies. But by all accounts it's one of the most realistic stock car racers yet. Got my copy ordered. Did they do it to get rich, I hope not as they might make some money but probably not a lot, they did it because they love sim racing. Not everyone wants to play another Forza or PGR... The games industry has a problem. In movies and music there is room for small artists and studios to do what they love and make some money, or do what they love and make none. It doesn't have to cost much to record a song and release it on the net. But this is hard in games. You can't just make a small game and slap it on the Xbox or PS3 you need go through MS and Sony pay them some cash probably and they get a cut of any sales off arcade no doubt. I guess this is where indy games come in on the PC and that's one of the many reason I hope PC wont die, and that's one reason why it wont imo. Games development is to expensive, thats the problem. |
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seasidebaz
15/03/08 @ 12:40
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@xiphos:
why on earth would you play a game if it wasn't fun? surely the aim of a GAME (big giveaway there) is to have FUN. hardcore games will generally get low review scores, because if there is no fun element, there's no point going back to it. oh, and if you want hardcore, try playing ssf2 on the snes for about 18 hours solid trying to unlock shenlong. THAT's hardcore. (and before i get flamed, i know that shenlong is not in ssf2, and is actually a fighting style ryu adopts, but you try telling that to my 10 year old self) |
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MajorStone
15/03/08 @ 13:53
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What a money graping ass... stupid console's have runed game's and its all money now.
No demo means the full game is not that good if the past is any thing to go by? R6 started on pc and now its going to die on a stupid console's... The gaming industry seems to be run be corporate sharks who love cash and dont no what game's are.. ITS A SAD DAY FOR GAMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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seasidebaz
15/03/08 @ 17:52
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@lavalant:
he's not on about realistic games, they sell quite well. he's on about hardcore games, where you die before the title screen even comes up. the kind of games that aren't fun, they're a lesson in how to get your body parts fed to you on a plate. edit: and i think you're confusing "hardcore" with anything that isn't "casual". games by their very nature are inaccessible. they require buttons to be pressed, controls to be mastered. casual games typically use 1 button and a bit of movement control. and lots of advertising. example of a hardcore game: ikaruga. try and finish the game in your first life. not likely. example of an inaccessible game: forza motorsport. it requires quite a deep level of learning. example of a casual game: zuma. everything controlled by the mouse. all games now simply fit into the middle category. there are no "hardcore" games, they died out. same as there are no "hardcore" gamers. they grew up and got jobs and families.
Edited 2 times,
most recently on 15/03/08 @ 17:57
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TagemandBagem
15/03/08 @ 18:01
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UBI only interested in target markets and profits?! No way! And of course there's no correlation between that and this quickly churned out expansion pack masquerading as a sequel.
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Funny how Red Storm had a hit with Rainbow 6 which is a hardcore shooter, and the franchise has grew into what it is today because of that.
There is space for a "really hardcore shooter". It will need a smaller, independent developer to find that niche, and make a great game to draw in fans from Ghost Recon, Rainbow 6, Flashpoint, SWAT, and many others. |
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seasidebaz
15/03/08 @ 19:35
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@apostle:
it also needs a dev budget of about £10, which is all they'd make back on it |
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seasidebaz
15/03/08 @ 20:42
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@lockyuk:
i agree with the pc being the place for the hardcore, it's also the place to pirate games if you want to play it truly hardcore. cod4 is not hardcore. it just encourages crouching behind walls. and not moving from the spawnpoint. |
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seasidebaz
15/03/08 @ 21:26
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/gives in, all these y00fs who seem to throw the word "hardcore" round without even realising that their "hardcore shooters" are actually easy and shit.
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Why does there have to be only one type of shooter? I love simulations but still enjoy the occasional arcade blast.
Ubisoft are correct, sadly, that the casual market is far larger. They're wrong however, in saying that us sim gamers have vanished. In an ideal world there'd be one sim in every handful of arcade titles. |
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SlackMaster said "Besides if you only have one hobby and that's gaming I'd say get a life."
and Seasidebaz said "Oh, and if gaming really is your only hobby... ever thought of a move to bridgend?" Kinda hard to find the time for hobbys when you work all day and have a family to look after you fuckin' knobs.
Edited 4 times,
most recently on 15/03/08 @ 23:17
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Well, Rainbow Six started out as a very tactical shooter. It wasn't as dry nor as hardcore as some of the newbs on here fantasize, but it was indeed alot less arcadey than what the series became with its move to consoles. This did not detract from the fact that it could very well be action-filled and tense at times, just in a slightly different way.
Some of us that've been around for a while think that those old tactical games carried alot more weight and substance than today's arcadey fragfests. Success were more dependant on teamwork and acquiring kills were very much more gratifying. |
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bloodflowers
16/03/08 @ 06:05
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I just want them to re-make Black Arrow.
Properly. Nothing since that has been any good. |
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SlackMaster
16/03/08 @ 10:36
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I don't get the hardcore strategic argument from some of you who then go on to say how great COD4 is... that's probably the most arcadie shooter I know.
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SlackMaster
16/03/08 @ 10:40
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Kinda hard to find the time for hobbys when you work all day and have a family to look after you fuckin' knobs.
So do I and a lot of others on here... It means I don't get as much time to game as I used to but that I get out a bit more rather than sit in feeling sorry for myself cos R6V2 isn't as hardcore as I want it to be. Get over yourself please. |
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I think there needs to be a clear definition of 'hardcore'. Each one of us seems to have a different interpretation. One person saying "Hardcore" mode in CoD4 [i]isn't[/i], well, what [i]is[/i]? I admit it doesn't go to the lengths of ArmA, but does it need accurate weapon ballistics etc? Is a hardcore gamer interested in an immersing experience, or authenticity? Or both?
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 16/03/08 @ 10:59
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tenma said... "Because it's such a sin to hope that a product that you invest millions in actually sells to a greater market than 3-400 hardcore FPS gamers?"
Sir, you miss the point. Not all games have to be aimed at casual gamers. I prefer devs with passion who explore new ideas and make the games that they want to and not what the suits think will make money, that is all. Take Introversion for example... http://www.introversion.co.uk/
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 16/03/08 @ 14:37
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SlackMaster said... "I don't get as much time to game as I used to but that I get out a bit more rather than sit in feeling sorry for myself cos R6V2 isn't as hardcore as I want it to be. Get over yourself please."
It not a case of getting over myself, I simply didn't like the implications that I have nothing better to do other than moan about the next R6. My main objection (in relation to the article) was that the video game industry has become 'too commercial', a bunch of suits with a lot of power making decisions based purely on financial return and not creativity. IMO.
Edited 3 times,
most recently on 16/03/08 @ 14:37
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I prefer devs with passion who explore new ideas and make the games that they want to and not what the suits think will make money, that is all.
And that's fine, just don't expect many games with that kind of extensive monetary investment to fall in line with that. I understand being angered that not many games appeal to your tastes, but i don't get the "money hungry" rhetoric. Everyone who's willing to invest the amount of hours they do into creating a game is passionate about gaming. It's just that they're also passionate about keeping their jobs. |
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