Nintendo DSi

By Tom Bramwell Published 6 March, 2009

A defence.

"It's the usual rip-off." "F*** you Nintendo." "Worst. Update. Ever." "F*** off you rip-off bastards." "Get bent Nintendo." Not my words, of course, but the words of Eurogamer readers after discovering that they would have to pay GBP 149 or thereabouts for the Nintendo DSi, which introduces slightly bigger screens, onboard flash memory and a download store, a couple of 0.3-megapixel cameras and an SD card slot at the loss of GBA compatibility - all housed in a slinkier, matte frame.

Not only are they not my words though, but they aren't my sentiments either.

Eurogamer has banged on about Game Boy creator Gunpei Yokoi's philosophy of "the lateral thinking of withered technology" before, and it's worth repeating, not just because it infuses everything Nintendo does, but because it's even more dramatically relevant to the DSi than it has been to the DS, Lite and Wii.

The 0.3MP DSi cameras are hardly going to frighten the average mobile phone, smart or otherwise, and the limited music playback functions are unlikely to scare Apple back into R&D on a new iPod; but for now they - and the amusing photo and sound mixing software packages included in the DSi system software - are little more than proofs of concept. Like the original idea of having two screens, the stylus in addition to regular d-pad and face button controls, and a microphone built into the handheld, they are there to tempt developers in new directions. If pressed, Nintendo would explain that it only includes new features in consoles when they facilitate creators and they are cheap enough to mass-produce at a profit. This is what Yokoi was on about, although one of the virtues of leading the market is that Nintendo rarely needs to say so directly.

'Nintendo DSi' Screenshot 1

The DSi will launch in Europe in two colours: black and white.

The bottom line for the average Eurogamer reader is that the camera and its new friends are not designed to sell the system to you immediately; they are designed to appeal to developers, and to briefly entertain people who do take the plunge without delay.

It's the same story with the SD card slot and the DSi Shop, which is inaccessible to European journalists at the time of writing, but has grown from nothing to boast over 20 games - including a new WarioWare, Solitaire, Mr. Driller and Panel de Pon - and half a dozen basic applications in Japan in the five months since the system launched. On the surface of it, there is nothing there to tempt the money out of your wallet this time next month. But in the longer run it will be a tempting reason to consider upgrading, even for filthy pirates bemoaning the obsolescence of their beloved R4s - an obsolescence Nintendo will hope to sustain with rolling firmware updates that are prerequisites for Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection and DSi Shop access.

If you can see a pattern emerging, it crystallises further beneath the DSi's slender bonnet, where CPU speed doubles from 67MHz to 133MHz, there's 16MB RAM (four times as much as the DS or DS Lite), 256MB of internal flash memory for the first time, and enhanced Wi-Fi support (WPA and WPA2 security, most notably). Right now, your existing games have nothing to gain. But you can look forward to games that will benefit from it, judging by Nintendo's admission that we can expect DSi-specific releases. The tech tweaks are hardly enough to worry the PSP's bigger and faster alternatives, but it's a rather more attractive proposition taken in context of the beauty and creativity already exhibited by some of the best games in the DS' existing back catalogue.

It also goes some way to explaining the GBP 149 price - along with currency fluctuations and, most significantly, the presence of the DS Lite on the market. Nintendo isn't abandoning the DS Lite, which costs GBP 99; it's happy to continue selling it, but it wants to launch the DSi now to build up a base of early adopters, fit to encourage developers to consider it as an alternative, and presumably to get the DSi Shop out there, and start fighting back in the war against casual piracy.

When it comes to Nintendo, the old rules of console launches do not apply. There is no need to keep the more powerful and capable DSi in isolation, nurturing specific games and third-party exclusives, and then unleash them on the market in a competitive hammer-blow, not least because the main competition is the DS Lite itself. Nintendo is the first company in the history of games that can afford to launch a substantially new console with no software, expect it to sell and expect to make money off every unit sold, and not even bill it as a particularly new console.

Yet, for all of that, it's hard not to see where all the swearing's come from. Core gamers have been bred to expect things at cut prices, in huge quantities, and for anything older than today to be forgotten in the process. The market reality is artificial - the Xbox 360 may retail for GBP 129, but you don't get a hard disk, the games you actually want, or the extra controllers and add-ons you need, and Microsoft loses money for selling it to you at that price. Nintendo has to make a decision: map its behaviour to a competitive pricing strategy that is no longer relevant to its business plan and profits, or cry itself to sleep for a few weeks under a blanket of four-letter internet tirades every time it launches a new console. Evidently it's chosen the latter because, in the long run, it's a sensible compromise: you are an important part of Nintendo's plans, but you're a core gamer, so you're fickle, and when the DSi reaches the tipping point, you'll be there in a flash. This doesn't mean Nintendo hates you, or doesn't respect you.

There is one unknown quantity in all this, however, and that's the question of region-locking on DSi-specific software. Nintendo has said that this is down to a mixture of embedded communication functionality and parental controls across regions, and the company's addiction to consumer safety is well-documented (Friends codes, anyone?). But on the other hand, it's easy to understand why it adds insult to import-minded gamers who already feel injured enough by the pricing to go on the internet and tear their hair out.

'Nintendo DSi' Screenshot 2

The original helpful shot comparing the DS Lite to the DSi.

The only way for Nintendo to answer this to everyone's satisfaction is to localise every game instantly, and release them all simultaneously, so nobody in Europe ever has to wait months for Rhythm Tengoku, or a new Ouendan game. But of course this is impossible. Never mind the role of third parties, who may not even want to release certain Japanese or US games in Europe, localisation is far from instantaneous, and Nintendo has its own way of doing things. Take Virtual Console as proof of that: although releases roughly align, the same games in different territories are treated as separate entities, with numerous different concerns like licensing contributing to delays in some cases, if not complete absence in others.

The irony is that there's no question Nintendo is better at releasing things quickly in Europe than it used to be, but it will never be enough for everyone. The greater irony is that this is because the DSi is being pitched as an upgraded DS rather than a new console, despite its numerous revisions. But the greatest problem is that even if Nintendo were to overcome localisation delays and standardise game releases across regions, region-locking still restricts people who honestly spend time in more than one country, and want to buy their DS games wherever they are. There's no answer for them except the lifting of region coding.

All of which leaves us with one question: should you buy a DSi on 3rd April? By now you probably know the answer. I think it's a splendid handheld, and you can read more about exactly what it does that appeals in our already-extensive Japanese DSi hands-on, which covers all the specifics. But the truth for core gamers is the same now as it was then: you don't need this yet, but you will one day, and Nintendo isn't quite the ogre you were thinking.

Nintendo DSi goes on sale in Europe on 3rd April for GBP 149.

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (203) Latest comment 3 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Tonka #1 3 years ago

    Another defence eh?

  • Widge #2 3 years ago

    DSi specific releases?

  • IneptPercy #3 3 years ago

    So is it a DS2 as such which is backward compatibe? in that sense.

    Still a no sale for me.

  • jonthepymm #4 3 years ago

    But I use my R4 to run emulators - it's the best Spectrum emulator ever, right down to the same screen resolution - and that's the removal I object to!

  • Wastelander #5 3 years ago

    It seems neither one thing or the other to me.
    I'm not entirely sure of the point of it.

  • richarddavies #6 3 years ago

    That article did seem quite defensive of the Dsi but I still can't see how they can justify the increase in price when the originals technology is years old now anyway. It's just greedy.

  • speedjack #7 3 years ago

    No GBA slot = no sale.

  • DFawkes #8 3 years ago

    I know it's just the nerdiest part of me, but my brains going "Faster! More memory! I need one!". I want one anyway so I have 2 in my house for multiplayer stuff, but now I know it's technically better I'll have an easier time justifying it to myself.

  • Zomoniac #9 3 years ago

    What a load of arse. They're charging 50% more than the other one has been for many years for essentially the same tech. And they haven't got much better at quick European releases. Phoenix Wright 3 took over a year to make it over here. They've added a slight performance upgrade to bring it somewhere near the current norm several years late and are charging over the odds as a result. This in the same week that Apple have decided that an extra 180GB of HDD space on an 18-month old machine justifies a £200 price increase. At least Nintendo, unlike Apple, aren't pulling the original version to give no alternative.

  • Krelle #10 3 years ago

    Thanks for that, Tom.

    I cant believe people whining about Nintendo and Sony updating their DSs and PSPs.
    No one ever says a word about Apple and their almost yearly update of the Ipod.

    If you think about it for a while, its the exact same thing.

  • ChadSexington #11 3 years ago

    If you can defend the DSi, you are a hopeless Nintendo fanboy.

  • Tomo #12 3 years ago

    Quoted! woot!

    I think...

  • Wastelander #13 3 years ago

    Um, Krelle plenty of people complain about Apple's updates and price hikes all the time.

  • Krelle #14 3 years ago

    About the price;
    It should obviosly be about the same as the "old" DS was before the DSi came out. Which it is. Atleast where I live.

    So no complaints there.

    I still havnt got a DSi, but I can see myself picking one up in a year or so, when/if DSiWare becomes a big thing.

  • Pac-man-ate-my-wife #15 3 years ago

    Damn Volkswagen and their endless updates of the Golf!

  • Krelle #16 3 years ago

    Wastelander:

    They do? Sorry, ill rephrase that.
    "No one I CARE ABOUT ever says a word about Apple and their almost yearly update of the Ipod. "

    Thanks for the notice (:

  • GamesProgrammer Verified Games Team Programmer, Eutechnyx Ltd. #17 3 years ago

    The main point is no 3rd party developer is going to touch those cameras with a barge pole, when 85million members of your market wont be compatible with the game.

    There may be some use for them in a quirky none gameplay essential way, or some of the DSI download games only available to the new DSI owners may use them.
    Edited by 1 at 06/03/09 @ 13:11

  • dr_faulk #18 3 years ago

    FUCK OFF TOM YOU STUPID COCK BASTARD BITCH!!!

    Oh, sorry, I got caught up in mood...

    Tom, you speak the absolute truth. It's just a slightly unfortunate situation.

  • mkreku #19 3 years ago

    I own a Golf! Stop dissing it!

  • Tomo #20 3 years ago

    Ok, having read the article, which is well argued, I'm still far from convinced.

    "you are an important part of Nintendo's plans, but you're a core gamer, so you're fickle, and when the DSi reaches the tipping point, you'll be there in a flash"

    I'm not sure I'm going to need it in the future. For me the loss of the GBA slot is more significant than the additions. Perhaps when we see DSi only games I might take notice as you suggest, but I've resisted the lure of the PS3 this generation despite there being a handful of games on it that I want, and it's a similar situation with the DSi. The existing updates and those in the future aren't enough to offset having to shell out for a new console. My DSLite is great, thanks.

  • The_Programmer #21 3 years ago

    What about the 3rd party games writers? Are they now expected to abandon the Lite as anything written specifically for the Dsi won't work on the Lite or, as I would do, make the games for the Lite and port to the Dsi and so make buying the Dsi pointless.

    Only a stupid firm would make a product to compete against itself and upset a vast amount of it's product users.

  • Beek4257 #22 3 years ago

    /sets irony-mode to on:

    Dear EG staff,
    You let 360 win nearly all the face-offs, call LBP game of 2008 and now this?
    Do you people even know the meaning of the word bias?!

    /switches irony off

  • Zomoniac #23 3 years ago

    I cant believe people whining about Nintendo and Sony updating their DSs and PSPs.
    No one ever says a word about Apple and their almost yearly update of the Ipod.

    If you think about it for a while, its the exact same thing.

    You might want to look that up and see why:


    September 2003 - 20GB and 40GB for $399 and $499
    July 2004 - Click Wheel 20GB, 40GB for $299 and $399
    October 2004 - iPod Photo 40GB, 60GB for $499 and $599
    February 2005 - Click Wheel 20GB for $249
    June 2005 - Color (Photo + Click Wheel) 20GB, 60GB for $299 and $399
    October 2005 - iPod Video 30GB, 60GB for $299 and $399
    September 2006 - iPod Video 30GB, 80GB for $249 and $349
    September 2007 - iPod Classic (refreshed interface) - 80GB and 160GB for $249 and $349

    Every year Apple bring out a new iPod, but apart from the first model of the Photo (which was in addition to rather than instead of the standard line at first), they've never put the price up. The original Photo came out and a year later they upgraded it to the Video and knocked $200 off the price. They're not as kind with their computer lines, which is why everyone is bitching about this week's massive price increases to the Mini/iMac lines for negligible improvement, but with iPod each revision usually launches with far more features for less money. Not exactly the same as removing features people like (region-free, R4, GBA slot, ability to play Guitar Hero), adding features nobody wants that could easily be done another way, and adding a 50% price increase for it.

  • Machetazo #24 3 years ago

    They don't trust their customers to make choices and take the steps to provide the experience and choice of titles that that person wants to enjoy. This is just a part of Nanny Nintendo's mis-phlosophy. Or, at least, measures that I can understand the wisdom and sense in their implementing - but would rather not have to contend (faff about) with myself. In the same way as parental controls: If Nintendo had included their safeguards at that level, it would be fine, but this stuff is just illustrative, as it is, of a company that only offers a sideways nod, every other season, to their longtime fans. I can't even see a reason to want one of these things on the software side: Where are the titles?

    Leave region locking back in the museum of video games, where it jolly well BELONGS. I'm also unimpressed that they've stopped me from being able to play "It's Mr Pants" (and other GBA gems) on this new thing, and, yeah, I have to agree with the first poster in noting this as being ANOTHER defence for the system, to add to the sixteen [!] I've already spotted on other media sites today.
    It's no advertorial, though, and I found it a good read.
    Edited by 2 at 06/03/09 @ 13:23

  • peterfll #25 3 years ago

    I bought a DS from the US when it first came out. I upgraded to a DS Lite eventually. But I haven't bought any new DS software for yonks.

    I really can't see myself buying one of these unless there's some sort of trio of killer AAA games for it. And I look at the DS release schedule for the past 12 months and I can't see it happening any time soon.

  • mrmonkey1980 #26 3 years ago

    Bottom line is I'm not going to get one yet because I have a perfectly functioning DS, but when that breaks down I may as well replace it with a DSi.

  • seasidebaz #27 3 years ago

    These comments pages make me laugh.

    The non-use of the R4 is of no impact to me. I'm not a pirate, see. And I don't go by this whole emulation thing because that's STILL piracy.

    The loss of GBA slot is of no importance to me because, let's be honest, GBA games are OLD. And I buy NEW technology to buy NEW games. If I want to play GBA games I'll pick up a GBA for about £8.

    DSi games, too, will NOT JUST BE DOWNLOAD ONLY. There will be cartridge releases. Specifically with reference to gamesprogrammer: Did 3rd party developers not touch colour when the GBC came out? Cos that was a similar scenario...

    The DSi already shows its potential before it's out: we're getting Rhythm Tengoku as DLC. An obscure (yet undeniably awesome) Japan-only game of limited appeal to most gamers is being localised and released via the Internets. That alone makes me want to buy one.

  • Tonka #28 3 years ago

    Overpriced my ass.

  • coderkind #29 3 years ago

    I may get one much further down the line, but there's nothing there for anyone with a DSLite to upgrade for.

    As for Nintendo's release policy in Europe; that's typically been poor. I waited over a year for Wario Ware: Twisted and then just got it on import.

  • JohnnyWashnGo #30 3 years ago

    Pass for me. GBA slot is a big thing for me as I still have plenty of GBA games to finish and enjoy playing them on the commute to work. The downloadable content so far does nothing for me either.

  • Weezer #31 3 years ago

    "No one ever says a word about Apple and their almost yearly update of the Ipod.

    If you think about it for a while, its the exact same thing."

    Uh, it's almost precisely NOT the exact same thing:
    Original 1st generation iPod - $499, 10GB, monochrome LCD screen, size of a housebrick

    iPod Nano - $199, colour LCD, music and video playback
    iPod Classic - $249, 120GB, colour LCD, music and video playback
    iPod Touch - $299, 16GB, colour LCD screen, touch sensitivity, apps, WiFi, mail, web browsing etc etc

    So: cheaper, better built, better technology, more functionality, more capacity, smaller.

    How the fuck does that compare to the DSi which uses off-the-shelf 'withered' components and yet - somehow - ends up being $30 more expensive than when the DS launched in 2004?

  • penhalion #32 3 years ago

    I've noticed Journalists trying to justify the existence of the DSi all over the place. Truth is (and it was touched on in the article) the region locking makes the DSi NON portable to other contries and removes the point in getting one. The cameras are useless and the music functionality laughable. Was it even mentioned that all the extras of the DSi are redundant the moment you put a ds cartridge in the thing?

    I may be cynical but, this seems to be a very transparent grab for money from nintendo.

  • Razz #33 3 years ago

    I love my DSi, it has brought me no end of fun. I love the camera to bis! ^_^

  • ps3owner #34 3 years ago

    it's called inflation. your money isn't worth what it was back in 2004.

  • RexRunti #35 3 years ago

    The only upgrade that interests me is the WPA2 WiFi conectivity. I think it's appalling that Nintendo which are so preoccupied with protecting you from yourself with stupid friend codes and the like will only allow you online with either no security, or security so bad it's pointless using it (WEP). Essentially if you take your Wii or DS online your essentially sharing your network with anyone who wants it (unless you do what I do and use a USB to ethernet adapter for the Wii and your neighbours open WiFi on the odd occasion you want to use the DS online).

  • Wastelander #36 3 years ago

    The technology's not worth what it was in 2004 either.

  • seasidebaz #37 3 years ago

    There is no region locking. Only DSiWare is region locked, just like WiiWare.

    THERE IS. IT WILL BE ON CARTRIDGES TOO.

    There is one unknown quantity in all this, however, and that's the question of region-locking on DSi-specific software. Nintendo has said that this is down to a mixture of embedded communication functionality and parental controls across regions
    See?

  • ps3owner #38 3 years ago

    but it's on the level of what it was back in 2004... similar to apple's offerings. old crap for a top premium. It just works :)

  • Widge #39 3 years ago

    Backwards compatibility to older platforms like GBA should really not be a sticking point.
    If you want to play old games, have an old console, if you want to play new one, have a new one.

  • penhalion #40 3 years ago

    @Widge

    Backwards compatibility to older platforms like GBA should really not be a sticking point.
    If you want to play old games, have an old console, if you want to play new one, have a new one.

    That's only a valid point if your old console doesn't look and function 90% the same as your new one now isn't it. All you've done is highlight just what a rip-off the DSi is.

  • Beek4257 #41 3 years ago

    Want to play games both old and new? Stack your consoles to the roof and have the cables make your tv look like medusa's head ...

  • Widge #42 3 years ago

    I would say the DS/DSi would be way ahead of old Mr GBA. Its about the same step up from SNES to N64.

    If the DSi wasn't supporting DS games, then I'd be a bit miffy.

    BC is awesome, its nice to have a machine that has it... but when you have a catalogue of shiny new goodness available, then hit that. Launch catalogues have got a bit better recently too!

  • jonsaan #43 3 years ago

    The DSLite may be on sale alongside this at first but it's bound to vanish. I don't believe they plan to genuinely push forward with both. Don't get me wrong. I would like a DSI but the price point is too high. It just is.

  • Rorsch #44 3 years ago

    Very nice article. Got me thinking... I can imagine the sort of games Nintendo can cook up with a console with a mic, camera and touchscreen.
    Edited by 1 at 06/03/09 @ 14:41

  • dryden555 #45 3 years ago

    good to know they doubled the CPU speed in preparation for DSi specific games. Still not a reason to buy one of these _now_ though. Maybe next year or so.

    But the REAL reason for the DSi was to stop the huge impact of the R4, which is everywhere now.
    Edited by 1 at 06/03/09 @ 14:40

  • Gormless #46 3 years ago

    I dont recall anyone telling Nintendo to fuck off at the price of the Wii or Gamecube so to say they cop it with each console release is bollocks.

    However 150 for the DSi is worth a fuck off Nintendo.
    Edited by 1 at 06/03/09 @ 14:40

  • Les #47 3 years ago

    Will probably get a US one so I can still import some games. And in general more stuff tends to be released in the US but not EU than the other way around.

  • felderpony #48 3 years ago

    Blimey, Lots of folk up in arms over the DSi.

    Folk like myself that are still running an original (brought back from the US) silver DS must be tempted by the new DSi over the older DSlite surely? Still runs your DS titles and will run new DS titles, then there is the specific new DSi titles that will come as well. Okay so there's region locking, which isn't much of a deal breaker for myself since I don't get import titles these days. Not everyone is into that ;)

    I'm seriously tempted to replace my old DS now with a black DSi when it comes out (it helps it has WPA wifi support! I might finally get to play some DS online!) Sure, there is a price increase, I'm glad its not stupid thanks to the Global CreditCrunch(tm)

    just my thoughts.

  • Gaol #49 3 years ago

    Sorry but at £30 a pop for new releases , the DS is becoming hugely irrelevant to anyone who doesn't pirate. Look at the price of stuff on the iphone - that's how mobile gaming needs to be priced; not at a level which is higher than many new home releases I play on PC or PS3.

  • Weezer #50 3 years ago

    BTW: the outside camera is a full 3 megapixels (VGA res), while the inside one is 0.3.

  • kupocake #51 3 years ago

    It doesn't bother me that it exists (I mean, the Lite is still around, so what's the problem? And how much did people bitch when that came along and slightly modified the DS 1.0?), but I completely disagree when you say that "you don't need this yet, but you will one day". This is the kind of thinking that had me pestering my parents every Christmas for a Mega CD and/or 32X. The DSi won't crash and burn in quite the same way (the pricing model makes money, the various GBA versions did less with similar success), but nothing released on it is ever going to be 'essential'. Touch Screen gaming may have done wonderful things for handheld gaming, but the addition of the Camera is more akin to that of the microphone already in the DS, and how many 'essential' games have you played that required that?

    More to the point, touch-screen gaming was basically a new technology. Cameras have been optional add-ons of limited appeal for a while now.

  • schnide #52 3 years ago

    I think what everyone needs to remember is that Nintendo are getting absolutely bumraped blind by the R4 and it's ilk, and this is probably one of the main reasons that the DSi has to exist in the first place.

    Like it or not, you can't blame them for doing this even if it's in vain.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #53 3 years ago

    No mention of the slashed-in-half battery life? That's the thing that makes it a FUCK OFF NINTENDO for me.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #54 3 years ago

    "I think what everyone needs to remember is that Nintendo are getting absolutely bumraped blind by the R4 and it's ilk, and this is probably one of the main reasons that the DSi has to exist in the first place.

    This is cobblers, of course. Nintendo is making enough money from the DS and its software to sink an entire fleet of battleships. Despite (or hey, perhaps because of) the existence of flashcarts, DS software moves by the truckload. 1500 new DS games were released in 2008 - that doesn't happen in markets where games aren't selling.

    And finally, of course, there have been DSi flashcarts available for weeks and weeks now.

  • Subquest #55 3 years ago

    can't see this working outside of japan, to be honest. don't think there will be too many people upgrading for minimal gain, so DSi specific games will have a paltry audience consisting of new owners or existing owners replacing the one they dropped.

    For me, I'd like a DS2 which simply has the graphical prowess of a PSP ,but retaining the dual screens and stylus input. The DSi just ain't really an upgrade.
    Edited by 1 at 06/03/09 @ 15:33

  • JahB #56 3 years ago

    I think what everyone needs to remember is that Nintendo are getting absolutely bumraped blind by the R4 and it's ilk, and this is probably one of the main reasons that the DSi has to exist in the first place.

    and i'm sure it's gonna take a full month before the piracy industry has found a way to apply the same to the DSi. piracy is the reason the DS is so madly popular, and it's big business. go figure

  • Subquest #57 3 years ago

    Sorry but at £30 a pop for new releases , the DS is becoming hugely irrelevant to anyone who doesn't pirate. Look at the price of stuff on the iphone - that's how mobile gaming needs to be priced; not at a level which is higher than many new home releases I play on PC or PS3.

    QFT

  • DrunkDec #58 3 years ago

    Annoyed?
    Just.Don't.Buy.One.

  • Mooglepies #59 3 years ago

    Nintendo has always hated Europe, and their current strategy doesn't interest me in the slightest. Colour me uninterested.

    On the subject of colours, still nothing other than black and white?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #60 3 years ago

    Annoyed?
    Just.Don't.Buy.One.

    Thank God you were here! We'd never have thought of that!

  • Anufea #61 3 years ago

    @Weezer

    BTW: the outside camera is a full 3 megapixels (VGA res), while the inside one is 0.3.

    No. Both are 0.3 megapixels which is VGA res (640 x 480 pixels).

  • Weezer #62 3 years ago

    Anufea - yes, my maths is shit. VGA is 0.3MP. However these guys say the exterior one is 3MP...

    http://ww w.electronista.com/articles/08/...

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #63 3 years ago

    They're wrong. Can you really see Nintendo putting in a camera generating more pixels than the DS can actually display...?

  • schnide #64 3 years ago

    @JahB

    Like it or not, you can't blame them for doing this even if it's in vain.

    I've reiterated this part for you since you missed it.
    Edited by 1 at 06/03/09 @ 17:15

  • schnide #65 3 years ago

    @Self-revering Stuart Campbell

    This is cobblers, of course.

    Good to see the years haven't stopped you from being a raging cock, Campbell.

    Nintendo is making enough money from the DS and its software to sink an entire fleet of battleships. Despite (or hey, perhaps because of) the existence of flashcarts, DS software moves by the truckload. 1500 new DS games were released in 2008 - that doesn't happen in markets where games aren't selling.

    And finally, of course, there have been DSi flashcarts available for weeks and weeks now.

    Have you heard of the music industry? I think people are still buying CDs, but not that many. The same thing will happen to the DS market eventually if the uptake of R4 continues. Sure the DS is popular and sells a shedload of games, but you're even more of a moron than before if you correlate the two directly with piracy.

    Nintendo will eventually move to a model primarily driven by downloads, and they couldn't have done that with the DS Lite. They'll make downloads so cheap that people won't even bother with an R4. It's the future.

    Patronise away.
    Edited by 1 at 06/03/09 @ 17:16

  • Les #66 3 years ago

    "They'll make downloads so cheap that people won't even bother with an R4. It's the future."

    I seriously doubt the "cheap" part TBH.

  • playgen #67 3 years ago

    "They'll make downloads so cheap that people won't even bother with an R4. It's the future. "

    The words 'cheap' and 'nintendo' don't belong in the same sentence, sadly.

  • Subquest #68 3 years ago

    They'll make downloads so cheap... a ha... a ha ha ha ha

  • Windypops #69 3 years ago

    The DSi is about putting a Nintendo shop window in the palm of people's hands. They've seen Apple do it with the iPhone and the App Store and they want some. Except that the way Nintendo will do it will be to have no downloadable content available in Europe until all the early adopters have died of natural causes and it'll be 54.99 for a Gameboy game.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #70 3 years ago

    "Have you heard of the music industry? I think people are still buying CDs, but not that many. The same thing will happen to the DS market eventually if the uptake of R4 continues."

    The same thing will happen to the DS market eventually if the Pope grows fucking wings, son. If the R4 was going to kill it, it'd have done it by now.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #71 3 years ago

    "Nintendo... downloads... cheap"

    Thanks, love. You've given everyone a right old Friday-afternoon chuckle with that one.

    :D

  • iago71 #72 3 years ago

    This will do big things in Japan as they are obsessed with anything new - To be honest I cant see it doing so well over here though - At least for now. I dont agree with the R4 on principal - Though I do own one! - I suppose that would make me a man without principals!

    I would like one purely from that seed of childishness that rears its head when something new arrives but for once I think I can wait.....

    I wouldnt write Nintendo off with this though..... I remember back when the original DS was released everyone dissing it and saying how shit it was compared to PSP - Look what happened. (I own and love both BTW). It'll be interesting to watch this space.

    Fuck Nintendo? Fuck all of 'em - its called consumerism - They are no more gulity than any of the others! We have the right to refuse but so often we dont!

    EDIT: They'll make DLs so cheap people will not bother with R4 ...... well unless they make DLs free then I would beg to differ! Bit Torrent - Search - leech - Seed (optional but gentlemanly!). Done.... And no regional release dates need to be waited for.
    Edited by 1 at 06/03/09 @ 17:49

  • peterfll #73 3 years ago

    I'd forgotton how much I'd like a GBA 2 to come along until someone else mentioned it. I gave up hope and thinking about that some time ago.

  • Kanjin #74 3 years ago

    Oh come on, noone uses the GBA slot except for the R4 cards.

    Bring on the DSi :)

  • Zomoniac #75 3 years ago

    The loss of GBA slot is of no importance to me because, let's be honest, GBA games are OLD. And I buy NEW technology to buy NEW games. If I want to play GBA games I'll pick up a GBA for about £8.

    And if you want to play Guitar Hero On Tour, Metroid Pinball, use the Opera browser, then what?

  • Zomoniac #76 3 years ago

    Am I the only one who thinks that DSi cart games won't take off?

    1. The girls and grannies that much up such a massive proportion of DS game buyers aren't going to pay so much for such a minor upgrade. Will there be a big enough install-base for third-parties to justify developing DSi-only games?

    2. If developers start releasing games on both platforms then it's just going to cause no end of confusion come Christmas when all the mums and aunts go in to by some film tie-in for the kids and don't know which of two pretty much identical consoles they're buying for.

  • Ryze #77 3 years ago

    /waits for resonable price and decent download titles

    Otherwise I'll consider a 2nd hand black DS lite for Chinatown wars. If it's good.

  • hiddenranbir #78 3 years ago

    Poor defence. Basically saying, wait for the future. I will wait, but I won't be buying to do so.

  • Zomoniac #79 3 years ago

    Those aren't reasons against them taking off. On the contrary they're reasons that will make people think about upgrading.

    Girls and grannies not upgrading and not creating a big enough install base is a reason girls and grannies will upgrade? How exactly do you explain that?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #80 3 years ago

    "Oh come on, noone uses the GBA slot except for the R4 cards. "

    R4s don't go in the GBA slot, love...

  • smelly #81 3 years ago

    When people see more complicated games running on the thing (thanks to extra cpu and memory)

    When people see downloadable snes/megadrive games running on it

    When people see they can take photos of themselves and put them in game, etc etc..

    THEN I can see a rush of people buying one.

  • commanderpsike #82 3 years ago

    I don't think it's wise for Eurogamer to begin an article by patronising it's readership and painting them as swearers.

    The DSi is indeed a rip off, because for £150 you'd expect more adventurous hardware.

    It's the new hardware you're paying for after all, £150 would buy you a lot of DS software.

    Otherwise you'd by a much cheaper DS lite.

    Compared to the iPhone and PSP the DS is getting very far behind in terms of hardware, and now also value for money. iPod Touch anyone? Much better screen and OS, better web browser, better music player, 600mhz CPU and hardware 3D for under £100.

    However what matters most these days, is the software, and this Nintendo gets right... very right indeed.

  • jonbwfc #83 3 years ago

    "When people see downloadable snes/megadrive games running on it
    When people see they can take photos of themselves and put them in game, etc etc..
    THEN I can see a rush of people buying one. "

    OK, two things

    1) I think you're vastly over estimating the percentage of the DS owner population who give a crap about SNES/MD games. D'you think all the casuals who got a DS and a copy of Kawashima as a christmas present are going to think 'Oooh yes, I must go out and spend 150 quid on something which is almost identical to what I already have, only it'll let me play 20 year old games that I've never heard of before that are worse than the ones I've already got'.

    2) It's a good job there isn't an already existing easily pocketable range of devices which contain a camera significantly better than the one on the DSi which the majority of the population already own and which allow them to, for example, send photos to each other and stuff like that /facepalm. Photos in games? Big frikin deal. PS2/3, 360 and PC owners have been able to do that for years. How have games that push this as a major part of their functionality sold? Bloody appallingly. Nobody is going to ride out the credit crunch on the basis of the profits made on 'In the Movies'.

    The DSi is an incremental upgrade to the DS. if they were bringing it in at the same price as the DS or less, that would seem a relatively sensible thing to do. To bring it in at a higher price, that's just mental.

    Jon

  • smelly #84 3 years ago

    "piracy is the reason the DS is so madly popular, and it's big business. go figure "

    Remember that next time you moan that there are no big budget 3rd party games on the thing...

  • smelly #85 3 years ago

    "The same thing will happen to the DS market eventually if the Pope grows fucking wings, son. If the R4 was going to kill it, it'd have done it by now."


    It already has.. that's why 3rd parties dont bother making "hardcore" games for the thing any more (knowing the "hardcore" are more likely to pirate) - and concentrate on the "mainstream" audience who dont know what a R4 is or how to use one if they did.

    Cocks like you will never get a simple concept as "you're destroying the games you love so fucking much".. You'll just be the first to moan when cooking mamma 8 comes out and use that to justify you stealing assed ways.. And before you jump in like a cock i know you are and start saying "it's not stealing" ,. You now have something people worked hard to make that you didnt pay them for.. It may not be the dictionary definition of stealing.. but then in the dictionary under the word "cock" is also your face.

    (goes off to copy a load of stuarts articles and claim them as my own - as it's "not stealing".. hell - i might even see if someone will pay me for his hard work..)
    Edited by 1 at 06/03/09 @ 20:14

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #86 3 years ago

    "It already has.."

    LOL. Have you actually looked at any sales figures recently? The DS is the biggest licence for game publishers to print money in the history of the games business. The R4 and its ilk have been out for YEARS, are incredibly cheap (less than seven quid now), and are so simple your granny could use them. And yet, DS games still sell by the shipful, which is why so many get released (over 210 already this calendar year).

    "Cocks like you will never get a simple concept as "you're destroying the games you love so fucking much""

    That's because they're palpably, visibly, empirically, measurably NOT BEING DESTROYED, you retarded fucking halfwit.

    http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.co...

  • smelly #87 3 years ago

    Well done stuart.. Yet again you've just proved to the world what a complete cock knocker you are.. Well done.

    "ooh, my written English skills arent as good as yours - that MUST prove you're not a cock"..


    BTW: There's high sales figures on mainstream tatt - non mainstream stuff isnt selling (to the point that people have stopped making them) because cocks like you wont pay money for them.

    If you dont want it.. fine, dont have it. Dont use that as an excuse for not paying for it.

    "honest officer, i only stole this tv because it was too expensive"

    cock.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #88 3 years ago

    Who mentioned English skills? Or excusing anything? Not me.

    Just some of the third-party "hardcore" DS games released in 2008:

    Chrono Trigger (Square Enix)
    Disgaea (NIS)
    The World Ends With You (Square Enix)
    Race Driver: GRID (Codemasters)
    Izuna 2 (Atlus)
    Castlevania: OoE (Konami)
    Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney (Capcom)
    Bangai-O Spirits (D3)
    Trackmania (Focus)
    Guitar Hero On Tour (Activision)
    Civilization Revolution (2K)
    Sim City Creator (EA)
    Geometry Wars Galaxies (Sierra)
    Metal Slug 7 (SNK)
    Exit DS (Square Enix)
    Space Invaders Extreme (Taito)

    Plenty of which have done very nicely indeed saleswise, despite those nasty old pirates destroying the industry which is still managing to churn out 100 new DS games a month, many of which (see above) are of excellent quality.

    So why don't you just save yourself any more embarrassment and fuck away off like a good wee cretin, eh?

  • smelly #89 3 years ago

    >Just some of the third-party "hardcore" DS games released in 2008:

    And how many of those did YOU pay money for? Exactly..

    I wonder.. looking at your pictures.. whether you were the kid that got picked on at school - and that's why you're such an asshole on the internet? (get to feel like a big boy while hiding behind your keyboard?)

    oooh.. macho man...

    You're still a twat though
    Edited by 1 at 06/03/09 @ 20:56

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #90 3 years ago

    Sorry, I thought the argument you were making was "that's why 3rd parties dont bother making "hardcore" games for the thing any more"? But now you've been humiliated over that one, you're reduced to changing the subject to some desperate drivel about whether I paid for them or not? Personally I wouldn't give you tuppence for Guitar Hero On Tour if it came with free heroin and Ferraris, but that doesn't change the facts any, you witless prick.

    And the facts are that even though the DS is massively pirated and has been for years, it hasn't stopped it being a HUGE sales success, both in software and hardware, and it still is. So you really don't have a point, do you?

  • seasidebaz #91 3 years ago

    This thing has now turned into a farce.

    Rev Stuart Campbell:
    I was about to drop £2 a month on your website. Instead, I think I'll spend the money on cocaine. It'll last about the same if your comments on here are anything to go by.

    It's not a direct dig at you, but you're missing the point as much as everybody else.

    IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE DSI DON'T BUY ONE!!!!

    Fucking morons.

    Nintendo isn't aiming at any of the people on here, I mean FFS we know what a Mario is, and how to use a Metroid. Nintendo targets OLD PEOPLE AND NON-GAMERS. Get over it. Nintendo are a COMPANY. Companies make MONEY in order to SURVIVE. They don't make things out of the goodness of their heart. It's about PROFIT.

    I weep for the future of the world when people want to stop making money.

    To reiterate: Fucking Morons.

    Stuart Campbell: PM me with reasons I should drop £2 a month on your website. Your 2100 words on the way Metal Slug has changed is not a reason.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #92 3 years ago

    If you don't want to subscribe to WoS, love, that's entirely up to you. If you're looking for a website that tolerates fuckwits like smelly, you'll be disappointed.

    And as for "If you don't want a DSi don't buy one", well fucking duh. We all know that already, thanks. But this is a comment thread entirely about whether the DSi is a ripoff or not, so people are making comments on the subject. If you don't want to read them, don't click on them.

  • seasidebaz #93 3 years ago

    But that's the POINT! To me the DSi is not a ripoff any more than the iPod Touch I got given. It's a new hardware iteration. It's not immensely advanced, but so what? Nintendo will make profit from it, and therefore may not go out of business. I mean it's simple economics, really.

    Oh, and Beer + lack of games = gaming rage

    I am currently suffering from Bottle of Wine + 4 cans of Stella + GHWT Drum Kit that I'm not allowed to drum on.

    Fucking Bastards.

  • alternat1ve #94 3 years ago

    I'm sorry not to join in with the bitchfest, but I do not currently own a DS of any kind.

    I am very interested in buying a DSi next month. Is this the sensible way to go, or should I purchase a DS Lite?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #95 3 years ago

    I don't think you have to worry about poor old Nintendo going out of business any time this century.

  • seasidebaz #96 3 years ago

    Also: I want to know what occurs in the top 10 unknown racing games. I got as far as the coppers on jet bikes then I need to subscribe. Even though I've played the coppers on jet bikes game.

    Fackin Liberties.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #97 3 years ago

    "I am very interested in buying a DSi next month. Is this the sensible way to go, or should I purchase a DS Lite? "

    Right now the only sensible choice is a Lite. The DSi is 50% more expensive, has half the battery life, and no software worth owning (that won't also run on the Lite). In a year's time, who knows?
    Edited by 1 at 06/03/09 @ 21:34

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #98 3 years ago

    "Also: I want to know what occurs in the top 10 unknown racing games. I got as far as the coppers on jet bikes then I need to subscribe."

    Then you should have read it for free in WH Smith when it was in Retro Gamer...

    ; )

  • seasidebaz #99 3 years ago

    No software worth owning?

    Rhythm Tengoku Gold.

    :D

    edit:

    AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

    Also:

    I'm guessing Ridge Racer wasn't number 1?

    Maybe Rad Mobile?
    Edited by 1 at 06/03/09 @ 21:30

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #100 3 years ago

    Rhythm Tengoku Gold is on the ordinary DS, man. The language isn't much of an issue.

  • seasidebaz #101 3 years ago

    But it's DSi Ware innit.




    Simple things etc.

  • seasidebaz #102 3 years ago

    I will get back to you Mr Stuart Campbell.

    I may still subscribe in the future.

    Especially if you would like to employ a writer who hates people. And you would pay. Who is me.

  • smelly #103 3 years ago

    "I don't think you have to worry about poor old Nintendo going out of business any time this century. "

    No,.. but lots of 3rd party companies are.


    But as you're bringing everything down to your level of school yard insults...


    Stuart is an arse
    Stuart is an arse
    E I a Diddly Oh
    Stuart is an arse

  • smelly #104 3 years ago

    @seasidebaz: Once you've subscribed - Can you make a copy of it for me to read? I'ld like to take stuarts stance on copyrighted material and not pay him for it..


    Edited by 1 at 06/03/09 @ 22:14

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #105 3 years ago

    "No,.. but lots of 3rd party companies are. "

    No they're not. Try to keep up.

    "I'ld like to take stuarts stance on copyrighted material and not pay him for it.. "

    You wouldn't understand all the big words, poppet. It'd be like giving a dog a digital watch.

  • seasidebaz #106 3 years ago

    AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH


    Stuart, please don't tempt me with your Digitiser talk.

    It's not fair :(

  • secombe #107 3 years ago

    All those moaning about the price should join the world of the DSLR Cameras and associated lenses. We're experiencing 40-60% price increases at the moment due to 'currency fluctutions', yet the console market appears to absorb such things. A lens that was £400 last week is £600 now, camera bodies are shooting up in the hundreds (and in some cases - thousands) of pounds, literally overnight.

    Make no mistake, it will be costing Nintendo far more to bring this new product to Europe than many would ever appreciate. And yes, I understand that the majority of gamers live in this strange parallel universe where they expect massive corporations to be their friend and sell to them at a loss, not the profit making entities that they actually are and need to be.
    Edited by 1 at 07/03/09 @ 00:37

  • peak_performance #108 3 years ago

    I couldn't care less about the loss of the GBA slot, but since most of my collection is import* I wont pick this up until... ever, I think. My Lite should be fine until DS2.

    * Why? Because they're at half price from ours and generally released about six months earlier. At this price point I've even been able to pick up games I haven't been certain would be good just because I felt like it.

    Needless to say, if the DS2 is region locked and download-only where games will cost 400SEK+ (which they will, Nintendo are as greedy, or rather as good businessmen, as Flintheart Glomgold) I will think thrice about buying it despite loving the DS. I love a platform where you can afford to take risks when buying games.

  • peak_performance #109 3 years ago

    If the DS was locked I wouldn't have been able to buy or play either Ouendan or western released games :/ (or by a japanese DS, but that's not an option).

    But the DSi isn't region locked for cartridges, is that so? Is that for already released games or even for upcoming?

  • jellyhead #110 3 years ago

    peak, from what i've managed to glean the DSi games are region locked. By that i mean any games that use the DSi features will be region locked but normal DS games won't. I'm not sure about the downloadable games though and i'm also not sure if it's mandatory region locking or a developer/publisher decision.

    It's the kicker for me too, i'll stay with my old launch DS Phat until there's a compelling game to upgrade to DSi for.

  • Chufty #111 3 years ago

    People are still moaning about the loss of R4 as a 'feature' because of their 'emulators'. It's complete bullshit and you know it. People who have an R4 but don't use it for piracy are in an EXTREME minority. Get over it, you're a filthy thieving pirate and you don't deserve to be able to play old spectrum and SNES games for free.

    Buy a fucking spectrum off Ebay.

  • romanista #112 3 years ago

    mmm,what big words... I see mainly people who that they're kind of pushed to upgrade to something that they're not sure yet, and looks a bit much like that what they already have. So don't upgrade, and what if the dsi becomes and interesting proposition in the future, with a price drop, interesting software that uses the fast processor and maybe the gadgets in a good way (remember it took a year for developers to understand the DS, early 2005 was filled with tech demo's and stuff). And overpriced? It has been a long time since price was strictly related to cost, and probably they think it will sell. Not to us at the moment, buty maybe in a year.

    The DS-lite, has been quite the ultimate console for me in 2008, with all those lovely titles stu mentioned, of which i bought a few, mainly due to availability. The succes of lovely devices as the cycloDS is why they made the DSi for a part, not just to combat piracy, but also because even they noticed that is quite handy to have more than one game with you at the time, which is for me the main reason to use such a device (cyclods+3-1 makes me use all my gba titles on the move). GBA titles were great at the time, many have been followed up now by DSequivalents, and the good one which aren't would make a good downloadable game for the DSi. But people who have and like those games will probably either hold on to their lite, or buy a nice smaller SP+ or micro..

    Region locking remains a travesty though


  • Bagpuss #113 3 years ago

    Lol...why are so many people here rushing to defend a company that treats you like shit and has zero respect for the European games market.


    Your like a bunch of battered wives, get smacked around and then are dumb enough to stick around and come back for more...

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #114 3 years ago

    "People who have an R4 but don't use it for piracy are in an EXTREME minority. Get over it, you're a filthy thieving pirate and you don't deserve to be able to play old spectrum and SNES games for free."

    My, my. Your arrogant certainty is almost as overpowering as your complete ignorance.

    Got a source for that "EXTREME minority" claim, have you? No, didn't think so.

    What about people who legitimately own all those Spectrum and SNES games and would just like to play them on the move? What, more to the point, about people who've legitimately bought dozens of DS carts but don't want to drag bulging pocketfuls of games around with them? Are they filthy thieves too?

    No, of course they're not, and however much you shout and scream and stamp your feet you have NO IDEA how many people fall into any of these categories. So shush, you silly little twat.

  • Dan234 #115 3 years ago

    If you want to know why the DSi is so more expensive, it's because the pound has plummeted.

    The price level of the DS Lite in Europe is 150 euros, and the DSi will come out at 170 euros. The DS Lite in the UK is 100 pounds and the DSi will be 150 pounds.

    Strictly speaking the DS Lite should have gone up in price, perhaps Nintendo are actually selling Lites (edit: in the UK) at a loss these days (we all know how they like to make a profit on every piece of hardware sold without subsidising from games).
    Edited by 1 at 07/03/09 @ 13:04

  • seasidebaz #116 3 years ago

    What, more to the point, about people who've legitimately bought dozens of DS carts but don't want to drag bulging pocketfuls of games around with them? Are they filthy thieves too?

    They're not thieves but they're still flagrantly ignoring the law. It's illegal to use the ROM of a game whether you own it or not. I know this because the EULA that comes packaged in a game says so.

  • Dan234 #117 3 years ago

    EULA's can say many things, but the law takes precidence.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #118 3 years ago

    EULAs mean nothing where they conflict with the law, and UK copyright law explicitly permits the making of backups.

    (Section 50(A) of the 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, if you're interested.)
    Edited by 1 at 07/03/09 @ 13:27

  • seasidebaz #119 3 years ago

    So if UK law permits it, how do you make a backup of a DS game? I'm pretty sure that most people here don't have the ability to make a romdump. Which then takes us full circle: If there is no way for most people to make a backup, then does the law cover them downloading a backup? At which point, I would once again class that as piracy.
    So, people with R4 cartridges are dirty pirates.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #120 3 years ago

    "So if UK law permits it, how do you make a backup of a DS game? I'm pretty sure that most people here don't have the ability to make a romdump."

    That's neither here nor there. It's not actually that hard to do - all you need is a Slot 2 flashcart and the right free app - but the point is that it's explicitly permitted in law, and the chances of being successfully taken to court for having a ROMdump of a game you legitimately own, whether you dumped it yourself or not, are unimaginably microscopic.

  • seasidebaz #121 3 years ago

    Fair enough, I thought it was a lot harder to do than that (ie requiring some specialist hardware...)

    The other thing worthy of note, though, is that if people really DO want to carry all these games around with them, DSiWare will go some way to accommodate that. I know I keep banging on about Rhythm Tengoku, but what you have there is a full game that's being transferred to DLC, in a similar way to the PS Store on PSP. This means it can be stored on an SD card. Now that, to me, sounds like it makes the R4 redundant, unless people really ARE into piracy.

    The whole thing to me though is that the DSi is a very good little package. I loved my DS when I had one, and this is another evolution of it in the way that the Game Boy kept evolving all the way up to the Micro.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #122 3 years ago

    Well, that point is true if every single game is made available on DSiWare. It's long been a mystery to me why Nintendo haven't come up with an "official" R4, and it makes no commercial sense not to.

    And just so we're clear, the only things I have against the DSi are the region-locking and the battery life. The price is OTT, but since when did anyone expect anything else from Nintendo? The battery life is an absolute deal-breaker, though.

  • gaselite #123 3 years ago

    Who are the pissants on the internet complaining about this toy? If you don't want one, don't buy one, and don't discuss it with anyone ever either because it's interminably boring. Easy.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #124 3 years ago

    "Who are the pissants on the internet complaining about this toy? If you don't want one, don't buy one"

    I hope you die of cancer before you have children.

  • Dan234 #125 3 years ago

    Cancer, eh? That trusty standby which one can always turn to for a flippant reply when other sources of humour let one down.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #126 3 years ago

    The pathologically cretinous shouldn't breed. It's for the best for everyone.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #127 3 years ago

    Not far enough down that you don't feel the need to read the story, read three pages of comments and then post one, though.

  • Dan234 #128 3 years ago

    The pathologically cretinous shouldn't breed. It's for the best for everyone.

    Indeed.

  • smelly #129 3 years ago

    Stuart thinks piracy isnt theft and doesnt effect anyone.

    So I personally say everyone who's paying a subscription to his website shouldnt do so - only one person should and he should pirate the contents for everyone else.

    Maybe that's the only way the stuck up pompous dick will "get it"

  • roz123 #130 3 years ago

    Why do so many people hate this?

    As a ds owner i am glad they are not bringing out a completly new system so games will keep coming for it

    The internet distribution can only be beneficial to gamers. Reduced cost of distribution = more money to spend on general development = more "risky" new ips and an easier way for indy developers to get in on the act.

    Plus there is the posibility of online updates for buggy games (although havent yet found one on the ds) and better online gaming.

    If the crazy genious japs think of some more crazy genious ways of using the camaras in game then that could potentially be fantastic.

    £50 more isn't much considering its got onboard memory, more powerfull cpu and more ram.

    So... I wont be getting one straight away because i am happy with my current one. But if it turns out good then i will get one. Will it be successful? Of course it will

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #131 3 years ago

    "Kinda depends how you obtained it if you didn't dump it yourself. Just ask Davenport Lyons. "

    Davenport Lyons know as much about copyright law as my dog's arse does. And I don't even own a dog. They're good at bullying people who don't know any better, but if they tried to bring a case against someone for owning a backup of a game they'd legitimately bought they'd get laughed out of the country. Not least because copyright infringement is a civil issue, and to win a case you have to prove actual direct loss. Which is kinda difficult if the person HAS bought the game.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #132 3 years ago

    "So I personally say everyone who's paying a subscription to his website shouldnt do so - only one person should and he should pirate the contents for everyone else."

    Why don't you drop them all a line and see if they agree? It might save you embarrassing yourself on here with any more idiot lies and clueless bullshit.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #133 3 years ago

    Sorry, what IS your point? We were talking about a person with legitimate games putting backups of them on an R4 for convenience. Who said this person was distributing anything? You're not suggesting that a bunch of ambulance-chasers like Davenport Lyons are going to bring down the entire filesharing network, are you?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #134 3 years ago

    It's not a "loophole". The right to make a backup is EXPLICITLY laid down in law. It's not an oversight people can exploit in order to get away with making a backup, it's the specific purpose of that section of the Act.

    I genuinely have no idea what point you're trying to make. I'm not sure that you do either. Think it through and get back to us.

  • Dan234 #135 3 years ago

    We all know what he's trying to say, apart from you who seems unable to get off the horse you've climbed up on and is suffering an attack of Asperger's syndrome as a consequence, for a change.

    The point is you've not made a backup of your own game for running on an R4, you're downloading someone else's backup which was publicly distributed.

    You might think it's stupid legal hair splitting that of the kind that keeps solicitors and lawyers in their jobs or you might not, but thems the facts.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #136 3 years ago

    "The point is you've not made a backup of your own game for running on an R4, you're downloading someone else's backup which was publicly distributed."

    Sigh. So what? As I've already said in words that even dolts should be able to understand, copyright infringement is a civil offence with a requirement on the part of the plaintiff to demonstrate actual quantifiable financial loss. If you've already bought the game legally, then the publisher cannot claim you have caused it to suffer financial loss. Therefore there is no prima facie legal case to answer. Simple as that.

  • Dan234 #137 3 years ago

    If someone gets a letter from Davenport Lyons and replies back saying something similar to what you said, they may drop the matter or if DL fancy their chances they may decide to take them to court. If they do take them to court then there'll be a ruling on the matter, but until that time the law is not clear on this point because it doesn't explicitly spell this scenario out.

    If you run the game on another system in an emulator or you use the same game in two DSes (one bought and one on an R4) then there is room for arguing financial loss.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #138 3 years ago

    "the law is not clear on this point because it doesn't explicitly spell this scenario out.

    If you run the game on another system in an emulator or you use the same game in two DSes (one bought and one on an R4) then there is room for arguing financial loss"

    The law is PERFECTLY clear on the requirement for direct financial loss. As the veteran of several successful court cases on copyright infringement, I can tell you that with absolute certainty.

    As for using the original and backup in two different places at the same time, you're quite right in that there might be an arguable case for that.

    But it isn't what we were talking about. What we were talking about, absolutely explicitly, was a person owning many legitimate DS carts and choosing to use an R4 to more conveniently carry all his games around rather than a pocketful of carts. Nobody mentioned someone else playing his originals while he was doing so.

    (And while there is certainly a theoretical case against that, it'd be a nightmare to prosecute successfully - who would be the defendant, for a start? Someone using the borrowed original? No law against that. You, playing your backups at the same time? We're back to proving loss again, and you've paid. We could all agree that the spirit of the law had been broken there, but the mechanics of trying prosecute it as a civil case would be horrible.)

  • seasidebaz #139 3 years ago

    So what would happen if I took my copy of Jeremy Clarkson's new book down the library and photocopied it? Purely as a backup, of course?

    Or seeing as how the design of a £20 should be copyrighted, can I make a backup of that legally?

  • Dan234 #140 3 years ago

    Which brings us back to suing the means of distribution instead of suing for quantifiable financial loss, no?

    If you download it via P2P, you also make it available for public distribution at the same time, therefore breaking section 107 2A and 4A of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 amended by the EUCD 2003. Case closed.
    Edited by 1 at 09/03/09 @ 13:23

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #141 3 years ago

    But who said you downloaded it by P2P? There are countless direct-download DS ROM sites, even if we're assuming that you didn't dump it yourself. (It's also perfectly possible, though rude, to block uploading when using P2P.)
    Edited by 1 at 09/03/09 @ 15:14

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #142 3 years ago

    "So what would happen if I took my copy of Jeremy Clarkson's new book down the library and photocopied it? Purely as a backup, of course? "

    Well, you'd probably be sectioned for being mental, on several levels. But the Act specifically allows backups of computer games (which legally also includes console games) - it doesn't grant the same rights over other forms of media.

  • seasidebaz #143 3 years ago

    Ah, I found the bit of law you are referring to:

    It is not an infringement of copyright for a lawful user of a copy of a computer program to make any back up copy of it which it is necessary for him to have for the purposes of his lawful use

    So, what you are saying is that you are making a backup just so you don't have to pirate the game? Because it seems that you're only allowed to take a backup if it's NECESSARY to have for LEGAL USE.

    Now to me, that term is veeeeeeeery important. Say, for example, I go out and buy a game on DVD. But oh noes, I don't have a DVD drive! Looks like someone will have to rip it to CD for me so I can use it. It's necessary to take a backup for legal use, so that I don't have to download the game and a NOCD crack (which is copyright infringement as it bypasses the copy protection of the game).

    Or, as another example, I want to play World of Goo. But oh noes! I has no internetz. So, I download it at a friend's house and MAKE A BACKUP, which is NECESSARY so that I can use it LEGALLY.

    It also says that the USER CAN MAKE A BACKUP. Not anybody else who has made the backup available for download.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #144 3 years ago

    All backups are necessary, since you can't count on the publisher to stay in business, and if you wait until they go bust it's too late.

  • smelly #145 3 years ago

    >Why don't you drop them all a line and see if they agree?

    My point being shit-for-brains, is that you keep going on about how "piracy doesnt effect anyone" but if everyone pirated your shitty site and no-one paid you money to visit each month - you'd soon change your tune.

    But it wont happen though, as no-one would be arsed to copy something so shit as your webshite.
    Edited by 1 at 09/03/09 @ 16:42

  • smelly #146 3 years ago

    >All backups are necessary,

    A backup in necessary.. copying said backup to your shitty site for your subscribers to download for free isnt necessary.

  • Dan234 #147 3 years ago

    But who said you downloaded it by P2P? There are countless direct-download DS ROM sites, even if we're assuming that you didn't dump it yourself. (It's also perfectly possible, though rude, to block uploading when using P2P.)

    In the hypothetical case that Davenport Lyons and others get to know about it and send you a letter then obviously you downloaded it by P2P. In the case that you downloaded it via a direct download site, then you won't get a letter by Davenport Lyons. The direct download site will.

    All backups are necessary, since you can't count on the publisher to stay in business, and if you wait until they go bust it's too late.

    Why, do your games or DVDs self-destruct when the publisher goes bust? Mine don't.

    You need to look at sections 296ZA to 296ZE of the Copyright Act 1988 (as amended by etc...) which deal with circumventing technical measures used to protect copyright.

    So to conclude...

    1. Quantifiable financial loss (not having the original, using a backup at the same time as the original, using a backup on an emulator on another system).
    2. Downloading via P2P which at the same time makes it available for widespread public distribution.
    3. Removing technical measures used to protect copyright.
    4. Knowingly circumventing technical measures used to protect copyright.

    In addition to the measures used against the people who provide copyrighted work for widespread public distribution (i.e. direct download sites) and those who sell products which remove or circumvent technical measures used to protect copyright (i.e. R4).

    So perhaps the only sure legal way to get a backup is via a direct download site, and even then it could be decided that you were knowingly circumventing technical measures. Maybe a few years back (i.e. before the 2003 amendment) your argument might have held water but now it doesn't.

  • smelly #148 3 years ago

    @dan : you're trying to talk common sense to a twat who promotes piracy (and even has pirated games available to download on his site to subscribers).. But yet doesnt get simple ideas that for someone who makes his money out of the games industry, pirating them is a bit hypocritical.

    - but then he has a band of loyal "asshole" followers who subscribe to his site (ironically) paying him a monthly fee for his copyrighted work.. So as long as he has those band of loyal followers - he'll always think he's on the "right" side of any argument. Even when everyone else thinks he's a hypocritical dick.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #149 3 years ago

    "So to conclude... "

    To conclude, the subject under discussion was a person using the R4 to play copies of his legitimately-owned games for convenience. What you've done is come up with an example of something rather different, requiring several totally hypothetical assumptions and a whole bunch of other people, none of whom were mentioned by anyone but you (other P2P users, a website owner, someone using your original at the same time you're using the copy). You may as well say "And if he then used his DS to club someone to death, he'd get done for MURDER as well!!!!".

    It is not illegal to make a backup of a videogame - first of all, there is a burden of proof on the publisher to show that you obtained a copy by unlawful means. There is then - crucially - a further burden of proof on them to show a DIRECT, ACTUAL financial loss to them as a result. The only plausible way of doing this is to show beyond reasonable doubt that the copy and original were being used at the same time, even then they would have to show that the second copy would have been paid for, and even then the penalty would be limited to the cost of a second copy.

    The chances of success in such a case are very low, the potential rewards almost non-existent, and the risks (both in direct costs and in the chance of setting incredibly dangerous precedents) very high. That's why it'll never happen, however contrived a scenario you strive to create. So again: what's the actual point you're trying to make?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #150 3 years ago

    "A backup in necessary.. copying said backup to your shitty site for your subscribers to download for free isnt necessary."

    Go away, sonny. Grown-ups are talking.

  • seasidebaz #151 3 years ago

    It is not illegal to make a backup of a videogame
    Actually, it is. Unless you NEED to make one in order to stay legal.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #152 3 years ago

    "Unless you NEED to make one in order to stay legal."

    That's not what the law says. If you're just going to make up clauses in the law that don't exist, I don't really see the point of arguing with you.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #153 3 years ago

    "Such style: if in doubt, ad hominem."

    Your/Dan234's entire fucking premise is ad hominem.

  • seasidebaz #154 3 years ago

    It is not an infringement of copyright for a lawful user of a copy of a computer program to make any back up copy of it which it is necessary for him to have for the purposes of his lawful use
    This bit is the law. Note the bit in bold.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #155 3 years ago

    Yes. Now have another go at understanding it.

  • seasidebaz #156 3 years ago

    So why is it necessary to have a backup?

    Do you NEED a backup to be able to play it?
    Is it YOU MAKING the backup?

    If no to either of the above, then sorry but it's not really legal is it...

  • Dan234 #157 3 years ago

    To conclude, the subject under discussion was a person using the R4 to play copies of his legitimately-owned games for convenience. What you've done is come up with an example of something rather different, requiring several totally hypothetical assumptions and a whole bunch of other people, none of whom were mentioned by anyone but you (other P2P users, a website owner, someone using your original at the same time you're using the copy).

    The 1988 Copyright Act has been updated by the 2003 EU Copyright directive which means makes points 2, 3, and 4 that I listed above are reasons which can be used for alleging that the defendant has broken copyright.

    It is not illegal to make a backup of a videogame - first of all, there is a burden of proof on the publisher to show that you obtained a copy by unlawful means. There is then - crucially - a further burden of proof on them to show a DIRECT, ACTUAL financial loss to them as a result. The only plausible way of doing this is to show beyond reasonable doubt that the copy and original were being used at the same time, even then they would have to show that the second copy would have been paid for, and even then the penalty would be limited to the cost of a second copy.

    All of the points I listed above count as "prejudicially affecting the copyright owner" and/or "infringing copyright". Point 1 is on an equal footing with the rest, it is not a further burden of proof. Proving any one of points 1-4 is enough to demonstrate that the law has been broken.

    Your/Dan234's entire fucking premise is ad hominem.

    Ah. You sure it wouldn't be you're clinging onto one part of the Copyright Act in order to make your point?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #158 3 years ago

    "The 1988 Copyright Act has been updated by the 2003 EU Copyright directive which means makes points 2, 3, and 4 that I listed above are reasons which can be used for alleging that the defendant has broken copyright. "

    Yes, I know. I examined the ramifications of the EUCD in print for PC Zone in January 2004. It still makes no difference to the facts. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff to show that the accused obtained their copy in such a way, and that STILL isn't what was being discussed, no matter how much you try to shift the goalposts.

    Yet again: what is your actual point, in regard to this specific discussion? What is it that you're actually trying to say?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #159 3 years ago

    "Do you NEED a backup to be able to play it? "

    Yes, you do. Because the media could become corrupted at any time, and the original publisher may not be willing or able to provide a replacement.

  • Les #160 3 years ago

    "It is not illegal to make a backup of a videogame - first of all, there is a burden of proof on the publisher to show that you obtained a copy by unlawful means. There is then - crucially - a further burden of proof on them to show a DIRECT, ACTUAL financial loss to them as a result. The only plausible way of doing this is to show beyond reasonable doubt that the copy and original were being used at the same time, even then they would have to show that the second copy would have been paid for, and even then the penalty would be limited to the cost of a second copy."

    You're mixing up the act and the proof of the unlawfulness of the act. E.g. it's illegal to kill someone. The fact that the police can't prove that I did it doesn't make it a legal act. For some people, the notion of doing something that is against the law is enough for them to refrain from doing it. For most, the chances of actually getting caught are more important. You could call the first group morally superior for what it's worth...

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #161 3 years ago

    "You're mixing up the act and the proof of the unlawfulness of the act."

    No I'm not. Backing up a game you legitimately own is not a crime. And the chances of you being successfully pursued in court for having a copy of a game you legally own, even if you obtained the copy in a technically illegal way, and even if you openly admitted it, are so close to zero as to be non-existent.

  • seasidebaz #162 3 years ago

    Because the media could become corrupted at any time, and the original publisher may not be willing or able to provide a replacement.

    Ah, but you're not buying the software when you buy a DS game. You are buying the cartridge as a whole and having the software licensed to you, which is covered under UK statutory law and as such you are provided with a warranty, same as everything else manufactured. If the "media" corrupts, you are entitled to a replacement for the period the warranty lasts. If the poduct is no longer available, a full refund or item of similar value must be provided.

    Seeing as the product is actually the software contained on the cartridge and the cartridge itself, which in turn is an anti-piracy device, by removing the software from the cartridge you are bypassing the anti-piracy measures and hence are actually infringing copyright. And I'm very sorry, but THAT IS ILLEGAL.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #163 3 years ago

    "If the poduct is no longer available, a full refund or item of similar value must be provided."

    From who? What if the publisher's gone bust?

  • seasidebaz #164 3 years ago

    The original place of purchase.

    Come on, if you've done all this legal stuff you must know about warranties?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #165 3 years ago

    "The original place of purchase."

    LOL.

    You're confusing statutory rights for outright purchase of physical items with buying the licence to use a piece of intellectual property.

    Tell me, why do you think it is that the law goes out of its way to allow software backups in the first place?

  • seasidebaz #166 3 years ago

    Funnily enough, that's because you are BUYING the cartridge. Hence the cartridge comes under statutory law, and as such if the cartridge becomes faulty it falls under statutory rights when it comes to a replacement.

    The software ON the cartridge is licenced and comes under the copyright laws, but unfortunately that cartridge that you paid money to own just happens to be an anti-piracy device. So...... You can't legally remove the software from it.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #167 3 years ago

    "Funnily enough, that's because you are BUYING the cartridge. Hence the cartridge comes under statutory law, and as such if the cartridge becomes faulty it falls under statutory rights when it comes to a replacement. "

    Oh for fuck's sake don't be such a complete retard. Physical items are protected by a limited warranty, typically a year, though there's also a vague, nebulous and difficult-to-apply rule about reasonable lifespans. Once that's up, you have no protection whatsoever. Buying the rights to IP, on the other hand, gives you the right to enjoy that IP forever. So if your DVD gets scratched five years on, and the publisher's disappeared in the meantime, the shop will piss itself laughing when you go back and demand a new copy or your money back, and they'll be 100% within their rights to do so.

  • seasidebaz #168 3 years ago

    OK. Contradiction of the evening time.

    Is the DS cartridge a physical item or not? Yes? Then it's covered by a limited manufacturer warranty. The thing stored on the cartridge is irrelevant. Once that cartridge is fucked, it's fucked. And you can't do anything about it.
    I'll put it another way: I've got some rather rare records in storage. Can I legally demand that I be allowed access to the original source recordings for free, even though the bands may no longer be around, seeing as I have rights to the IP? No. Can I make a backup? No. The records are too fragile, and I don't have a record player.

    You fail to bring any mention, also, to the fact that Nintendo use cartridges as an ANTI PIRACY MEASURE. TO BYPASS THIS IS COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT. I don't care how you try and word it, once the game is OFF the cartridge, IT IS AN ILLEGAL COPY.

    If I scratch a DVD, and go demand a new copy, then they WILL laugh at me. As it will be my fault, and as it would be MY fault the disc was scratched, I have no statutory rights.
    If, however, I decided to make a backup of that DVD, and assuming it was a film I particularly like such as Be Kind Rewind, or a rather fondly remembered piece of software, I WOULD BE BREAKING THE LAW.
    DVDs contain copy protection. Make a backup and OH OH! Copy protection bypassed, you know where I'm going with this...
    Edited by 1 at 09/03/09 @ 22:16

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #169 3 years ago

    Yes. Where you're going is a world where section 50(A) of the CDPA doesn't exist. It wasn't removed in 2003. It's still there.

    And I still don't know what point any of you are trying to make, and none of you seem able to tell me.

  • seasidebaz #170 3 years ago

    Section 50(A)1 or whatever it is DOES NOT COVER the removal of anti-piracy measures or the modification of proprietary software protected by IP.

    Modify or remove the measures in place to prevent piracy and you are, in fact, breaking the law.

  • seasidebaz #171 3 years ago

    Some closing thoughts before I leave for bed:

    Which part of the law covers the sale of copyrighted material by someone other than the IP owner? As in, the sale of pirated materials? As in,

    Obviously, much of the WoS Subscriber Bonus Content is technically copyrighted material.

    And how far do you think I'd get if I took Microsoft to court for denying me my legal right to play a backup of the Xbox 360 games I legally own? Hmm?

  • FooAtari #172 3 years ago

    I find all those getting on their high horse about the legallity of backing up games very amusing.

    I bet everyone of you has broken the speed limit before... And probably several of you still use your mobile phone while driving.

  • smelly #173 3 years ago

    @FooAtari: Its not so much the piracy issue.. it's who's saying it.. It's quite hypocritical that someone who is very "pro" piracy also makes money from copyrighted material about the very products he's pirating.

    If you'd said you pirate games.. i'd just think "meh.. i dont agree, but your choice i guess". But for someone like mr campbell - it's totally biting the hand that feeds him.

  • smelly #174 3 years ago

    (trying to think of a good analogy using Speed limits..)

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #175 3 years ago

    "(trying to think of a good analogy"

    Careful, love. You'll break that tiny brain.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #176 3 years ago

    "Section 50(A)1 or whatever it is DOES NOT COVER the removal of anti-piracy measures or the modification of proprietary software protected by IP.

    Modify or remove the measures in place to prevent piracy and you are, in fact, breaking the law. "

    Yes. Fuck me, after three days we've finally got to the point where some of you are at least able to read. The law says you can't break anti-piracy measures. It also says you're entitled to make a backup. Which means that companies who implement anti-piracy measures are breaking the law too, by depriving you of rights enshrined in law. Which gets us nowhere, and certainly not to anywhere where a court is going to find anyone guilty for copying their own property for their own use, or the jails would be full of people who've ripped their own CDs for an MP3 player.

    But for the 50th time - WHAT'S YOUR POINT, THOUGH? I do hate repeating myself, but as I've already said in words that even dolts should be able to understand, copyright infringement is a civil offence with a requirement on the part of the plaintiff to demonstrate actual quantifiable financial loss. If you've already bought the game legally, then the publisher cannot claim you have caused it to suffer financial loss. Therefore there is no prima facie legal case to answer.

  • Weezer #177 3 years ago

    Stu: are you REALLY a Reverend? Like, ordained and whatnot?

    (And - please - stop referring to people you disagree with as 'love'. It's ever so condescending and, frankly, beneath a man of your intellect.)

  • seasidebaz #178 3 years ago

    I bet everyone of you has broken the speed limit before... And probably several of you still use your mobile phone while driving.

    Nope. Never. I always get to the speed limit (very quickly) then stay there.

    The only exception is on the motorway, where the highway code states that you should travel at the speed of the flow of traffic, so I generally do that. Unless said traffic is a bunch of knobheads travelling close to 100, at which point I think 70mph in the fast lane is quite fast enough.

    And mobile phone while driving? Not bloody likely. I knew someone who had a very serious crash cos they answered their phone while driving. I'd never do that, it's just stupid. Not even handsfree.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #179 3 years ago

    "(And - please - stop referring to people you disagree with as 'love'. It's ever so condescending and, frankly, beneath a man of your intellect.)"

    It's supposed to be condescending. Why should people of my intellect (whatever level of intellect that might be) not be allowed to demonstrate contempt of complete morons like anyone else can?

    And to answer your other question, yes I am. There's nothing in any bible I've ever read about not being rude to cretins, or saying "fuck". Feel free to quote me chapter and verse if I'm wrong.

  • seasidebaz #180 3 years ago

    Ah sorry, there's that bit about "respecting thy neighbour". And "love for all men" or whatever the other bit is. Not sure though, I've thought religion was a load of tosh since I was about 12.

  • Dan234 #181 3 years ago

    Yes, I know. I examined the ramifications of the EUCD in print for PC Zone in January 2004. It still makes no difference to the facts. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff to show that the accused obtained their copy in such a way,

    But just a few posts up you said that the plaintiff still had to prove quantifiable financial loss even if they could prove points 2, 3, and 4, now you've just said that they don't. So what's it to be?

    Now your article in PC Zone in 2004 might have boiled down to, "Don't worry folks, everything's still the same as it was before despite all these new amendments to the Copyright Act 1988" but then again other people think otherwise. There is an exemption for home copying but that does not mean you can get round "any device intended to prevent or restrict acts that are not authorized by the copyright owner of that computer program and are restricted by copyright" (paragraph 34). The directive/act also say that you cannot offer it for widespread public distribution which is what P2P does (unless you disable uploading as you said but P2P programs don't work very well if you do this because as the name indicates it's peer-to-peer).

    and that STILL isn't what was being discussed, no matter how much you try to shift the goalposts.

    Obviously it is because yes you have the right to make a backup but if you make a backup using one of these methods and it can be proven that you used one of these methods then that presents a problem for you. I'm not saying it's easy to prove (and this is why the likes of Davenport Lyons stick to nasty letters demanding settlement out of court because it's much cheaper and easier for them too), I'm saying that these are facts. You seem to be unwilling to acknowledge these facts in this discussion.

    The law says you can't break anti-piracy measures. It also says you're entitled to make a backup. Which means that companies who implement anti-piracy measures are breaking the law too, by depriving you of rights enshrined in law. Which gets us nowhere, and certainly not to anywhere where a court is going to find anyone guilty for copying their own property for their own use, or the jails would be full of people who've ripped their own CDs for an MP3 player.

    CDs don't have anti-piracy measures, they're just a straight audio waveform stored track/sector format with a table of contents. You do not need to "circumvent the technological measures" to copy a CD, mainly because the format does not permit any. Hence the copyright holder is not free to authorise (or prohibit) anything. However a DVD does have "technological measures" (CSS and region blocking) which you have to circumvent in order to create a backup and by creating a backup you're breaking "technological measures" (paragraph 18 of that source above). The same goes for game backups (paragraph 34).

    @FooAtari

    I find all those getting on their high horse about the legallity of backing up games very amusing.

    One thing is arguing over the law, the other thing is arguing that the law is an ass. I quite agree that the law is an ass, but it doesn't change the facts. Stuart is happy to argue the finer points of the law (well, the points which suit him) on here but on other threads simply happy to make do with saying piracy doesn't hurt developers, repeatedly over 3-4 pages of course.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #182 3 years ago

    "But just a few posts up you said that the plaintiff still had to prove quantifiable financial loss even if they could prove points 2, 3, and 4, now you've just said that they don't."

    I haven't said any such thing. In fact I just repeated, in bold, that they do.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #183 3 years ago

    "Now your article in PC Zone in 2004 might have boiled down to, "Don't worry folks, everything's still the same as it was before despite all these new amendments to the Copyright Act 1988""

    Evidently you haven't bothered to read it. Which is fine, but it's terribly ignorant to then make assertions about it.

  • Nikanoru #184 3 years ago

    Wow, all you whiners are retarded, jesus fucking christ on a stick.

  • Dan234 #185 3 years ago

    I haven't said any such thing. In fact I just repeated, in bold, that they do.

    You wrote: "To conclude, the subject under discussion was a person using the R4 to play copies of his legitimately-owned games for convenience. What you've done is come up with an example of something rather different, requiring several totally hypothetical assumptions and a whole bunch of other people, none of whom were mentioned by anyone but you (other P2P users, a website owner, someone using your original at the same time you're using the copy)."

    I replied: "The 1988 Copyright Act has been updated by the 2003 EU Copyright directive which means makes points 2, 3, and 4 that I listed above are reasons which can be used for alleging that the defendant has broken copyright. "

    You replied: "Yes, I know."

    You agreed with me.

    Evidently you haven't bothered to read it. Which is fine, but it's terribly ignorant to then make assertions about it.

    I don't have a copy of it. That's why I qualified it with 'might have read', but I supposed this was the crux of the article as the main point you were stating here when mentioning the article was that the plaintiff had to demonstrate "quantifiable financial loss" as they had to before the 2003 amendment. If you feel this summary is inaccurate then you may re-post the article here if you want to. However the argument about having to demonstrate "quantifiable financial loss" is incorrect as shown in my posts, in posts from other people, and in a cited article in The Duke Law School's journal.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #186 3 years ago

    "However the argument about having to demonstrate "quantifiable financial loss" is incorrect"

    No it isn't. Copyright is a civil issue. For the publisher to bring a court case, they have to be able to show financial loss. If they can't, it doesn't matter a toss if you broke the law to get your backup, because absolutely nobody will care.

  • seasidebaz #187 3 years ago

    OK then, if I go and report you to FACT will you come back and report on whether or not they successfully took you to court? I'll provide them with your website address and everything like that, you don't have to do anything.

    Also, just to point out, this vehement defence of piracy, and "use of the R4 for backups", is exactly the kind of talk that people who engage in piracy tend to spout as a defence for their piratey ways. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it turned out you don't actually own ANY games, and instead just get them illegally. After all, how illegal can it be to download a Japanese game that, at the time, wasn't officially released in the West? And why stop there?

    The answer, "love", is that while you may look for loopholes in the law with which you can continue to pirate games, we all look down on you as the scum you are. Because theft is theft. And stealing someone else's property, such as, I don't know... over 125 Playstation 1 games, mostly never released in Europe, converted and compressed for use on the PSP by users with custom firmware installed, for argument's sake... makes you worse than the little shits who disgrace GameFAQs' fora.

  • Dan234 #188 3 years ago

    No it isn't. Copyright is a civil issue. For the publisher to bring a court case, they have to be able to show financial loss. If they can't, it doesn't matter a toss if you broke the law to get your backup, because absolutely nobody will care.

    Um, no. Civil law allows compensation to be awarded in a dispute between two people or organisations. Under the amended Copyright Act, the copyright holder bringing the case against the defendant must show "quantifiable financial loss" or that their rights as a copyright holder have been "prejudicially affected" (i.e. one or more of those four points). If the defendant is found guilty of infringing the copyright holder's rights according to the amended Copyright Act then compensation is then arrived at based on the court's judgement.

    Here's another

    A person who does anything (i.e. not just manufacture, dealing or commercial possession) circumventing these measures (console protection) knowing, or with reasonable grounds to know, that that objective is being pursued, is to be treated as an infringer of copyright (CDPA 1988 s296ZA(1), (3)) (source: Electronic Journal of Comparative Law pdf - section 4.1)

    This is bordering on the ridiculous. You repeatedly ignore valid points made against your argument (even first half of the post at 14:19 where I showed how you agreed with me) and carry on with slightly different variations on the same theme. Every source you can find from Whackypedia to law school journals states that your argument is incorrect yet we're still going round in circles here. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

    So, you may now have the last word and we can all pretend this waste of time never happened.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #189 3 years ago

    "Spunkbubble".

  • amv71 #190 3 years ago

    @Dan234

    "If you feel this summary is inaccurate then you may re-post the article here if you want to."

    That'd be copyright PCZ though, right?

    8)

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #191 3 years ago

    No. And it's available on my website, obv.

  • smelly #192 3 years ago

    >beneath a man of your intellect.

    guffaw!

    And what does this man of great intellect do for a living?

  • smelly #193 3 years ago

    >"Spunkbubble".

    ah see.. now youve come back at him with a valid argument - he's resorted in childish playground behaviour...

    What a guy.. (sarcasm) I wish i were his friend and i paid him money to read his bullshit webshite (/sarcasm)

  • superdelphinus #194 3 years ago

    "Microsoft loses money for selling it to you at that price"

    isn't that unlawful? I thought EU competition law forbid companies from selling products at an undervalue for the purposes of reducing competition

  • SlackMaster #195 3 years ago

    What core gamers think is a little irrelevant here I feel. It's the casual/non gamer that has made the DS so successful and the success of games like brain training and the like.

    I myself, having already had an original DS and a Lite won't be buying a DSi. I hardly buy or play DS games anymore to upgrade to a DSi to play games I'm already not playing. :s

    I think for this to be successful, Nintendo's new non gaming target market will have to see the value and difference's between it and the Lite, and I'm not sure they will.

    I really do not like the fact it'll be region locked. I've always felt region locking is an unfair way of forcing customers to buy a product at a high price. I don't think I should be forced to wait ages and buy in the UK, when I can get it earlier and cheaper from Japan or the US.
    Edited by 1 at 03/04/09 @ 10:07

  • SlackMaster #196 3 years ago

    I think that the reason 3rd parties struggle to make money sometimes on DS titles is because the DS is drowning in games. There just isn't enough shelf space anymore, and good titles are hard to find amongst all the imagine or pony sims.



  • BBIAJ #197 3 years ago

    Crikey, the DSi browser sure is fiddly! Would far rather browse on a PSP if it had to be handheld TBH.

  • mingster #198 3 years ago

    Baz are you one of thos c#nts that do 70 mph in the outside line on the motorway and don't move over thinking ' i'm doing the speed limit'. I f#ckn hate those lame drivers. Let people with fast cars drive past move back into the middle lane. Outside lane is for overtaking.
    Edited by 1 at 03/04/09 @ 12:53

  • MaxiSleep #199 3 years ago

    What a very biased little article that was.

  • albertofustinoni #200 3 years ago

    About the DSi: Who. Cares.
    Seriously, if people are so (rightly, I would say, given the new "features";) pissed at Nintendo for blatantly trying to grab their money, why don't they just give the thing a pass?
    Consumers have a very easy way to get their point across to companies by not buying: considering the thing is hardly necessary and there's plenty of better alternatives, why not to just vote with our wallets?

  • Grayvern #201 3 years ago

    Because some developers will want to use the increased power and who says some normal games wont be dsi only because of it.

    Its also worth remembering that the 18-24 year old white male who pirates the most games is also the group that purchases the most entertainment. Some people are dedicated pirates who don't want to pay and others buy as much as they can and pirate every so often.

  • GamesConnoisseur #202 3 years ago

    Piracy is piracy!

    I owned up to downloading DS games on my 8gb mini SD for the simple purpose of not bothering to purchase the games. I also wont bother to quibble that its for 'backup' or other shitty excuses.

    Piracy is a theft and stealing money from hard working devs, a good proportion of them are in Europe and UK. This is why I decided to get DSi and get second hand DS classics and from now on for the select good games I will buy properly as I do for all other platforms.

    Only concern is the localisation as I can see the appeal of downloading games that are not going to be released in UK for MONTHS! Wake up Nintendo and sort this out please.

  • Gouki #203 3 years ago

    Why is it when i read anything from eurogamer i feel the need to look for the dont feed the animals sign and if non, reward them with a banana....

  • DFawkes #204 3 years ago

    Though it's worth remembering the devs don't get money for second hand games GamesConnoisseur. Not that I'm saying buy new, but it doesn't help devs at the moment.