Games already filling 25GB Blu-Ray discs - Harrison

By Eurogamer staff Published 17 October, 2006

Makes case for next-gen discs.

Launch titles for the PlayStation 3 are already "getting up close" to the 25GB limit on current Blu-Ray discs, according to Sony's worldwide studios boss Phil Harrison, who was responding to criticism of the PS3's adoption of Blu-Ray.

"Already, at our launch titles, we're getting up close to the 25GB limit that we have on our Blu-Ray discs this year," he claimed. "Next year we'll raise that to 50GB, and I'd expect that we'll be getting close to that in the fairly near future as well."

Speaking in an interview with Eurogamer's Rob Fahey, Harrison decried suggestions that the Blu-Ray drive had been included in the machine purely to push Sony's agenda with regard to Blu-Ray movies.

"It's got nothing to do with movies," he responded. "DVD is not sufficient capacity to power the kind of data consumption, or to feed the data consumption needs of Cell and RSX - just purely as a gameplay device, we need Blu-Ray to supply the kind of data that PS3 games use."

Harrison also responded to questioning about the claim that the capacity of Blu-Ray will be used simply to provide more high definition movie sequences, effectively filling the discs - and games - with non-interactive content.

"It's not just about graphics," he said. "It's about 7.1 audio, it's about speech, it's about having up to 1080p movies built into the game; it's high-res textures, it's animation, it's everything that goes into making a very rich and varied next-gen experience. Partly it's visual, partly it's sound, and partially it'll be down to gameplay benefits as well - more levels, more detail, richer experiences."

However, he also defended the right of developers to include rendered video in their games - a key feature of many titles, even on next-generation systems.

"I see nothing wrong with having non-interactive, full HD sequences as part of the game," he said. "That's all part of the production value and the experience that you get when you buy the game. I don't see that as a weakness at all."

The Blu-Ray drive in the PS3 has been blamed both for contributing heavily to the cost of the system, and for causing the production delays which ultimately led to the decision to move the European launch back to 2007. Microsoft has accused Sony of taking choice away from consumers by including Blu-Ray - the Xbox 360 will have an optional external HD-DVD drive, although this can only be used for movie playback and will not be accessible to game developers.

Meanwhile, some consumers have questioned the value of Blu-Ray to videogames, given the ability of developers to fit games on the scale of Xbox 360 and PC title Oblivion onto a single DVD - although it should be noted that Oblivion, despite its scale, is a relatively early next-gen title. Many early titles in the previous generation shipped on CDs, but DVDs were widespread within a year to eighteen months, as developers learned to exploit more of the systems' functionality and streamlined the content creation process.

Harrison acknowledged that some early titles will not make full use of Blu-Ray's capacity, but was adamant that the standard will be vital to the PS3 in the coming years. "Not every game is going to fill 25 or 50GB," he said. "I completely accept that - but there will be games that require that this year, and will push that further in years to come."

Phil Harrison was speaking in an exclusive interview on the PlayStation 3, which is currently being serialised on the recently launched ThreeSpeech website, with additional excerpts set to appear on Eurogamer in the coming days.

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Comments (212) Latest comment 5 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • djchump #1 5 years ago

    Dragon's Lair and Night Trap ftw!

  • Blerk #2 5 years ago

    Uh oh! Here we go!

  • king_skins #3 5 years ago

    Programs and software are like a gas, they expand o fill the available space

  • joey #4 5 years ago

    It's like building roads, you make them wider, they fill up.

  • tonynibbles #5 5 years ago

    Heh.

    One minute there is an article about how in the future, disc media wont exist. Next minute they're harking on about how much space they need on disc media. Sort it out.

    7.1 for the win though. Lots of space is never a bad thing.

  • Darren #6 5 years ago

    Hmmm, filling a 25GB Blu-ray disc is easy when you consider that all the games will probably have 1080p pre-rendered FMV footage somewhere in the games and also have ALL the multiple language and audio files required for the different countries instead of having a localised versions. Have a non-localised disc is hardly a benefit to the consumer and pre-rendered videos are hardly a great way to make use of powerful hardware. /rolls eyes

    If PS3 games are geniunely using the disc space for actual gameplay then should be expect its game to pack in nearly three times more content or be three times longer than Xbox 360 equivalents? Somehow I doubt that very much... three times more content surely means three times longer development times and games that cost three times as much to make?

  • Steroyd #7 5 years ago

    Uh oh Spaghettio's.

  • itamae #8 5 years ago

    DVD is not sufficient capacity to power the kind of data consumption, or to feed the data consumption needs of Cell and RSX


    So the Cell and the RSX are steam engines that stop working once they've "consumed" all data? What is he talking about here?

  • Steroyd #9 5 years ago

    @Darren

    Did PS2 games just fill up the extra space with FMV with the jump from CD's?

    And how the hell can you critisice a game with multiple languages (well it looks like you're critisicing multiple languages on one disc), that means everyone around the world can get the game at the same time without waiting for localisation.

    JESUS!!

  • Wrestlevania #10 5 years ago

    king_skins: "Programs and software are like a gas, they expand o fill the available space"

    Same as Sony executives then...

    Remember kids; just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

  • Ceatlan #11 5 years ago

    You can also expect development times to be 3 times as long if developers are going to have to produce 3 times as much content. So expect to see lots of delays for PS3 titles.

  • Darren #12 5 years ago

    Re-reading the article again makes it sound like the extra space is used for 7.1 audio and pre-rendered 1080p movies, things that add to the experience but are by no means essential seeing as most people won't be able to see or hear them at that quality anyway for a good few years. It's nice that Sony are thinking ahead but the way I see it, by the time both standards are commonplace, there'll probably be new machines from Microsoft and Sony coming out anyway.

  • JHuxley #13 5 years ago

    There are benefits to having more storage on a disc, that much is obvious. But none of them have anything to do with improving gameplay.

  • playgen #14 5 years ago

    This is a joke
    Only the other day they claimed with PS4 there will be no disks. But if PS3 games are going to be 50gig you can imagine how stupidly oversized PS4 games could be!

    Im looking forward to future press releases -

    "With PS4 its download only, it only takes a week to download a game, and you can store two whole games on the hard drive, its so much more convenient!"

  • Zomoniac #15 5 years ago

    So a PS2 was, what, 4GB? And a PS3 game is 25GB. So let's call that a 6-fold increase, just to make the numbers easier, so a PS4 game is, if the scales work similarly, around 150GB. And they want digital distribution with no media. And I will want access to at least 50 games, as will a lot of people (and that's a very conservative number, since without media you can't trade in so all bought games are forever, probably more like 200!). So it's going to need a hard-drive of at least 8TB in it, and that's just for 50 games. Over the lifetime of PS2 I bought (and then resold, which can't be done) about 180 games, so that would be about 20TB minimum. Something tells me that ain't happening.

  • hjarg666 #16 5 years ago

    Well, i see no reason why he would be wrong.

    After all, there was a time when you could fit a nice game to 5,25" and people couldn't figure out what do to with the huge storage space CD offered...

  • Steroyd #17 5 years ago

    So a PS2 was, what, 4GB? And a PS3 game is 25GB.

    And a PS1 was, what, 700MB?

  • mkreku #18 5 years ago

    Saying that nothing beyond DVD's is needed is extremely short-sighted thinking. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are here for a reason, even if that reason isn't obvious to everyone right now. Textures are getting bigger, streaming levels can provide tons of content, cutscene movies in 1080p will naturally take their piece of the pie, sound is getting better, and so on. Right now, the advantages of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are only for the select few, but in a couple of years most everyone will own a flatscreen HD-TV. That's when the next-gen begins for me, personally.
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 11:19

  • Biggles #19 5 years ago

    "that means everyone around the world can get the game at the same time without waiting for localisation."

    Surely it's the actual translating that takes all the time, not the burning of seperate disks. And so this means that while it might be possible for all territories to get a game simultaneously, wouldn't they have to wait for the last random language version to be completed before they can even start burning any disks at all?

  • TakeTheVeil #20 5 years ago

    with extra disc capacity comes lazy developers.. my example would be that ICO was one of the most beautiful PS2 games (and it werent short either) was on a CD (the euro pal version may have been on dvd because of language packs) but still a very compact beautiful game.. thou i guess its to be expected..

  • chupachups #21 5 years ago

    There was a guy called Northcote Parkinson who came up with the theory that work expands to fill time, and bureaucracy expands to fill the resources allocated to it.

    If you give a game developer 25 gb and they fill it, that doesn't actually mean they need that much, it just means they were given that much and see no need to optimise anything. The same developer could probably produce the same game on a standard DVD if they had to though.

    I bet the vast majority of these blu-ray discs filled by games are actually filled by high definition video, the actual game just being a few gigabytes. The worst case scenario for Microsoft is that 360 games have lower definition or shorter video scenes, but the gameplay graphics would look the same and the game would play identically.
    Edited by 3 at 17/10/06 @ 11:25

  • UncleLou #22 5 years ago

    And how the hell can you critisice a game with multiple languages (well it looks like you're critisicing multiple languages on one disc), that means everyone around the world can get the game at the same time without waiting for localisation.

    Um, the games won't localise themselves just because disc space is bigger. ;p

    Still, only time will tell if he's right. The proof will be the games, and it's not like 360 games developers haven't complained about the lack of disc space yet. Installed games on the PC already need up to 10-15 GB.

    And Oblivion is still a bad example - it's a copypaste game. Mind, Morrowind was on a single CD (PC version). That doesn't mean DVDs were unnecessary.

  • Darren #23 5 years ago

    @Steroyd - Calm down, dear! I wasn't criticising multiple languages on the same disc in the way you mean at all if you re-read what I wrote, just stating that that it will be one of the things that will no doubt account for games using upto 25GB of space! It's not a direct benefit to us English speaking users in terms of enhancing the gameplay experience, which was the point I was making. Of course, you might think having the option to play your games in Hindi and Chinese makes your games more enjoyable to play but I don't! LOL

    JESUS! /wink

  • space_ace #24 5 years ago

    sony talk again :)

    release lawrence of arabia in 1080p and all is forgiven :)

  • Steroyd #25 5 years ago

    @Biggles

    I'll be selfish bastard on this one but what it means to me is that Japan will get screwed, America waits a little longer and i get the damn game at the same time as everyone else. ^_^

  • mingster #26 5 years ago

    Its the 7.1 sound, the 1080p fmv, and multiple languages taking the room.
    These are extras.

    NOT the actual game code.
    Pure game code would easily fit on a single layer DVD (4.5gb) i wager.

  • Steroyd #27 5 years ago

    @Darren

    Oh... that's what you meant fair enough i just interpreted it wrong, i thought you was finding something to moan about.

    Aaaanyway Lair dev said one level takes up 4Gb and Insomiac said they have 40 large loaded areas at 300MB each (equates to 12Gb of level data alone) so no PS3 games won't find DVD's sufficient.

  • UncleLou #28 5 years ago

    So how many people are gullible enough to actually believe him?


    Believe what, exactly? That games will use the disc space? Or that it's necessary? Or at least helpful?

    And whos's fanboy enough to flat out deny that he might have a point?

  • chupachups #29 5 years ago

    Incidentally, notice any contradiction in what he said?

    "It's not just about graphics," he said. "It's about 7.1 audio, it's about speech, it's about having up to 1080p movies built into the game; it's high-res textures, it's animation"

    So movies, textures and animation aren't graphics?

    I don't really see why you'd need more than a fraction of a gigabyte for speech or sound, unless a game contains hundreds of hours of speech and soundtrack (pretty unlikely).

  • #30 5 years ago

    Massive duplication to reduce seek times from the drive.

    Every localisation on each disc even though they are then region-locked by the distributer.

    Lots of FMV "built into the game" - nowt wrong with that right?

    Lots of "DVD Extras" -style additions, like other game demos.

    Yes, it all adds up doesn't it.

    *Cough* 512MB total RAM. Hi res textures are not all that practical.

    And how many people have 1080p and 7.1 sound? Catering to the benefit of the masses - not.

    If we've learnt anything, it's that games optimised for HD, even at 720p, have some difficulty when run on SD (text size, lighting etc).

  • Steve007 #31 5 years ago

    lol @ Harrison.

    What a wanker!

  • Schiraman #32 5 years ago

    Well it makes sense to me, increased storage space has been one of the major elements of every previous generational leap - TBH I don't understand why Microsoft thinks that it isn't needed this time - especially with all this talk of HD content.

    Sony have said some pretty stupid things over the last year or two, but this isn't one of them. Time to step away from the sony-hating and accept that they probably have a point here.

  • Shinji #33 5 years ago

    In fairness, game CODE normally fits in a few megabytes. It's content, not code, that takes up space.

    And yeah, 7.1 sound and 1080p movies are extras. If you want to look at it that way, high-detail models and environments, more intricate animations, and - crucially - much higher detail textures are also just extras. But that doesn't mean people don't want them, or that they don't improve the experience.

    I'm not sold on a lot of things about the various next-gen consoles, but I'm constantly surprised by how absolutely ferocious people are about savaging Blu-Ray. I remember seeing exactly the same thing when DVDs replaced CDs in the PS2. You know what happened because of that? GTA3. Go figure.

  • SpeedyThing #34 5 years ago

    "Aaaanyway Lair dev said one level takes up 4Gb and Insomiac said they have 40 large loaded areas at 300MB each (equates to 12Gb of level data alone) so no PS3 games won't find DVD's sufficient."

    Seems like some developers need to work on their compression. If Valve can fit Half Life 2 onto a single DVD then Lair need to work out what they're doing wrong

  • Inflatable #35 5 years ago

    Never heard so much marketing BS in my life.. Sad thing is plenty of people will believe utter crap like this, this is how you breed misinformation and fanboys.. Marketing BS like this always makes me hope the product marketed fails misserably (unfortunatly the PS3 won't no matter what BS Sony pulls)..

    If upcoming Xbox 360 and especially PC games still fit on 1 (or 2 at most) DVD's there's no reason at all why this shouldn't be the case with PS3 games.. Cell and RSX requires it? Don't make me laugh.. They're nothing more then a ordinary CPU & GPU, nothing really special that makes games 25-50GB all of a sudden..

    Mr Harrison can keep his crap product called the PS3, because by the time they start selling it here in Europe it will be obsolete already compared to my PC.. DX10 anyone? Just to name one example to why the PS3 will be obsolete already at launch.. At least MS got the Xbox 360 out the door in time, so at least that got more the a year on relative equal terms with the best the PC has to offer.. No such thing for the PS3, mr. Harrison with or without the fancy Blu-ray.. Which in contrary to what mr. Harrison says is only usefull for HD movies for the coming years..

    It's time the PS3 gets launched so the thing and it's games etc have to speak for themselfs, instead of the Sony BS marketing machine making it looks like the next world's best supercomputer.. What's next? PS4 with 1TB games and virutal reality engine 1.0?

  • Darren #36 5 years ago

    The person that mentioned PC games only coming on one or two DVDs (has any PC game ever come on TWO DVDs?!?) makes a good point. The PC is a more cutting edge machine than a console as it's a constantly evolving platform but very few PC games actually use more than 4 GBs of hard drive space when installed let alone 9. There are exceptions though but it'll be years and years before PC games come on HD-DVD or Blu-ray; look at how long it took for PC games to come on DVD as standard.

    Of course, Phil Harrison singing the praises of Blu-ray for games helps give the illusion of the PS3 being a state-of-the-art gaming platform way ahead of anything that the PC is capable of which in turn helps create hype for the machine and ultimately sell it to those gullible enough to believe it. However, I'm hearing that PS3 games aren't really that different from those we're playing now on the Xbox 360 and we all know that that machine hasn't really delivered the next-gen leap that Microsoft promised, just prettier hi-def graphics. I really don't see how 7.1 audio and 1080p FMV will make PS3 games more "next-gen" in terms of actual gameplay than that of the PC or Xbox 360.

    I want a PS3 for its exclusive games but I'm no fool; I know that the games won't be that different from those I play on the PC or Xbox 360 even if they fill a 50GB dual-layer Blu-ray disc.

  • mingster #37 5 years ago

    Steroid if you believe that one level of a game takes up 4gb of data on a disc then your are severely misguided or uninformed.

    This one level is probably unoptimised, uncrunched, and also includes all the fmv, sound, speech etc.. No level of any game takes up that much room and if it does then it is pre-release and by the time its gone through optimization would likely be a 10th of the size.

    Do you know how many lines of machine code 4gb is? The Sony assembler/DevKit must be very poor to churn out stuff this huge.

  • trevd72 #38 5 years ago

    how much space does gameplay take???

    have the ingame engines not got to the point where they can be used instead of cut scenes. there are plenty of games that do it from ages ago. It helps to keep things tight and less fractured just two things to mull over.

  • Yossarian #39 5 years ago

    "*Cough* 512MB total RAM. Hi res textures are not all that practical."

    especially when the PS3 apparently has problems with memory bandwidth! man I can't wait to see the load times when they push their 25Gb of HI-RES TEXTURES through that bottleneck

  • Steroyd #40 5 years ago

    @Mingster

    You're talking about Factor 5 here man!!

  • pjmaybe #41 5 years ago

    25gb chock full of ads and "locked" unlockable pay per view content. Yum!

    Peej
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 11:40

  • Wrobel #42 5 years ago

    Seems like some developers need to work on their compression. If Valve can fit Half Life 2 onto a single DVD then Lair need to work out what they're doing wrong

    Why would they bother when there is enough space available on BluRay

  • mingster #43 5 years ago

    Well if its the Lair game factor 5 are developing then the dragons and detail does look extremely high indeed and i admit would take a lot of room.

    But i still guarantee it the high res textures that are taking up the space not game code.

  • -TKF- #44 5 years ago

    32 MB ram in the PS2
    64 MB ram in the Xbox plus built in Harddrive
    512 MB ram in the 360

    And with DVD as storage media with up 9GB storage

    512 MB ram in the PS3 plus built in Harddrive

    And with Blu-Ray as storage with up to 50GB of storage.

    And noone thinks that the 360 may be limited by the old school choice of media?

  • Rambaldi #45 5 years ago

    So, those of us who have 7.1 systems, 1080p tvs and can speak multiple languages will really feel the benefit of inflated hardware prices and next-gen storage.

    Yay.

  • Steroyd #46 5 years ago

    But i still guarantee it the high res textures that are taking up the space not game code.

    Doesn't that mean that MS have a probloem with their High Def games then?

    A bit of consistancy would be nice.

  • Steve007 #47 5 years ago

    "And noone thinks that the 360 may be limited by the old school choice of media?"

    No.

    What's the worst that can happen in the future, that games come on more than one DVD?

    Harrison is just doing his weekly sales pitch for Blu-ray in a more laughable manner than normal.

  • Darkedge #48 5 years ago

    "I remember seeing exactly the same thing when DVDs replaced CDs in the PS2. You know what happened because of that? GTA3. Go figure."

    GTA3 game code, graphics etc apart from the CD audio was around 500 MB.
    with all music in MP3 format it was about 1100 MB (check the PC version - oh which actually incidentally had higher rez large textures).

    Yeah the DVD helped GTA3 exist ONLY for the soundtrack not the core game or graphics.

  • mingster #49 5 years ago

    I also agree that lazy programming means they won't bother to optimize and make code smaller as they will think 'why bother' we have more space now we don't have to.

    Also how much graphics ram is on the PS3 GPU? And whats its bandwidth.
    I very much doubt it is on par with a high end PC grahics card.

  • Darren #50 5 years ago

    Phil Harrison is a fool, no doubt about that. Saying that the extra space isn't all about graphics and then going onto to say that is exactly what it IS about (plus 7.1 audio), just shows how poorly he's thought about it! LOL

    As I said earlier if the games are genuinely using the space to offer more gameplay then that's great news, it finally justifies why we're paying £50 RRP for these so-called next-gen games, but somehow I doubt these games will be any longer than their PC or Xbox 360 equivalents as development is already expensive enough as it is. It's all about aesthetics really and little else.

    But we'll see, the PS3 launches in a few short weeks in the US and Japan so we'll see how next-gen this machine's games really are then.

  • dsmx #51 5 years ago

    Thats one of the most important things about GTA is the soundtrack, the radio ads and of course LAZLOW FTW.

  • Steroyd #52 5 years ago

    That's more like it Mingster.

    You could alsways stream direct from the disc perhaps?

    Worked with GTA:SA.

  • Kafeen #53 5 years ago

    Its the 7.1 sound, the 1080p fmv, and multiple languages taking the room.
    These are extras.

    NOT the actual game code.
    Pure game code would easily fit on a single layer DVD (4.5gb) i wager.

    The compiled code for a game takes up next to no space. A few MB tops. The size of a game comes from its data. Models, textures, levels, music, sound effects, these are not extras, without them you'd have nothing to see, nothing to hear, nothing to play.

    Blu-ray should be great for anti-piracy, how many people want to download 25GB games?

  • Eighthours #54 5 years ago

    This is the best bit of the full article from Rob Fahey on the "semi-official" website:

    Since he was appointed as head of Sony’s worldwide studios - the guy in charge of software, in other words - Harrison has become the company’s straight talker. There are plenty of people you can talk to if you want visionary, non-specific babble about the entertainment systems of the future. You talk to Phil Harrison if you want a straight answer about why the hell Sony is insisting on a Blu-Ray drive for PS3, or what they were thinking when they dropped rumble from the pad.

    Rob Rob Rob...

  • Darren #55 5 years ago

    @Kafeen - Good point about the anti-piracy advantage of shipping 25GB PS3 games although in time as technology becomes cheaper, I sure that copying/burning Blu-ray discs will become as commonplace as it is for DVDs (assuming the format doesn't go the way of Betamax, of course).

  • crazyhorse174 #56 5 years ago

    '32 MB ram in the PS2
    64 MB ram in the Xbox plus built in Harddrive
    512 MB ram in the 360

    And with DVD as storage media with up 9GB storage

    512 MB ram in the PS3 plus built in Harddrive

    And with Blu-Ray as storage with up to 50GB of storage.

    And noone thinks that the 360 may be limited by the old school choice of media?'

    Err...am I missing your argument here? Whats your point?

    Its already been stated that gamewise, the extra disk-space will make no difference...its with all the added extras that they'll be piling in that it'll show.

    And I'm surprised no-one here at all has mentioned the Wii?? What are the capacity of its disks? Will it really make much difference to the games there and will it stop you all from buying one??

  • mingster #57 5 years ago

    The compiled code for a game takes up next to no space. A few MB tops. The size of a game comes from its data. Models, textures, levels, music, sound effects, these are not extras, without them you'd have nothing to see, nothing to hear, nothing to play.

    I didn't say these weren't your right they are essentials and i consider them part of the game code.

    as i stated fmv 7.1 sound and multiple languages, are extras though and as nice are they are aren't essential.

  • Nobuo #58 5 years ago

    @MS fans.

    You're absolutely right. Storage space has an immeasurably small impact on gameplay. And yes, good gameplay makes a good game. It's true.

    Why, then, does the 360 have a DVD drive and not a floppy drive?

    And by arguing that PS3 games won't be 3-4 times longer than 360 games, are you also arguing that, say, DOA4 is 16000 times longer than the original Final Fantasies?

  • Markusdragon #59 5 years ago

    What was wrong with having 2-4 discs?

  • mingster #60 5 years ago

    If they work out how to copy and run ps3 games which they will.

    Then the games will just be ripped as usual to be made smaller. Sound recoded to
    5.1, fmvs reripped to lower rez, languages taken out.

    Core game will be back to 4gb ish again as usual and be downloadable.

  • Steroyd #61 5 years ago

    And I'm surprised no-one here at all has mentioned the Wii?? What are the capacity of its disks? Will it really make much difference to the games there and will it stop you all from buying one??

    No ones mentioned the wii because it is more or less last gen tech and it isn't vying for High Definition.

  • ccfb #62 5 years ago

    "although it should be noted that Oblivion, despite its scale, is a relatively early next-gen title. Many early titles in the previous generation shipped on CDs, but DVDs were widespread within a year to eighteen months, as developers learned to exploit more of the systems' functionality and streamlined the content creation process."

    Wait, is this an editorial?

  • paulf #63 5 years ago

    surely this should be a discussion about quality over quantity, sure there might be 25 gig of stuff on these discs, but if that stuff is crap whats the point.

  • Psychopompus #64 5 years ago

    "I see nothing wrong with having non-interactive, full HD sequences as part of the game," he said. "That's all part of the production value and the experience that you get when you buy the game. I don't see that as a weakness at all."

    So a PS3 game will be like 20% effective gameplay and 80% non-interactive full HD sequences. MGS3 for PS2 already had too many non-interactive sequences to my taste, MGS4 will dwarf MGS3 in that department.

  • #65 5 years ago

    Didn't someone from Sony say that optical media was dead anyway? I don't get why Harrison is defending it?

    Didn't Harrison say summit about being able ot download AAA titles on the PS3? Even the best model has only a 60GB HDD, so does this mean we can fit on 2 games, or maybe even one - and have to delete and re-download all the time?

  • mingster #66 5 years ago

    Yup its all fluff and filler a good game doesn't have to be massive.

    Look at Defcon a new PC game. Its been lauded as good. It would fit on a floppy. The whole game is only 70mb and most of that is taken up with the music!

  • Kami #67 5 years ago

    Can I be the one to point out that backalong, the argument for Blu-Ray was that developers would have a challenge filling up the space?

    He does have a valid point in there somewhere, but it's covered by the traditional Sony BS ™, Which is a shame.
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 12:02

  • crazyhorse174 #68 5 years ago

    And I'm surprised no-one here at all has mentioned the Wii?? What are the capacity of its disks? Will it really make much difference to the games there and will it stop you all from buying one??

    'No ones mentioned the wii because it is more or less last gen tech and it isn't vying for High Definition.'

    I see what your saying, but its kind of missing my point (which actually I didnt explain very well anyway!)

    What I meant was, if Nintendo can fit high quality games onto smaller disks that people will still want to buy, even though they have the choice of the 360 and PS3, then how can such huge disk sizes (a la PS3) be justified?

    'Why, then, does the 360 have a DVD drive and not a floppy drive?'

    And daftest comment of the day goes to...

  • Stormflood #69 5 years ago

    It's not about filling 25GB, it's about exceeding DVD. It will happen, it will be necessary. Is it that hard to understand?

    If you don't want a PS3, don't get all upset that it has a larger capacity drive than 360 or Wii. There's really no point. Let PS3 purchasers worry about the benefits/cost.

    But lets be honest, if Phil Harrison said we need oxygen to breathe, most of you would suffocate yourselves. And if Major Nelson said you could breathe underwater, we'd see Xbox fanboys washing up on beaches.

    Didn't Harrison say summit about being able ot download AAA titles on the PS3? Even the best model has only a 60GB HDD, so does this mean we can fit on 2 games, or maybe even one - and have to delete and re-download all the time?
    They have said we will be able to download PS1/PS2 games if that's what you mean. As for the HDD, it is upgradeable with a standard 2.5" drive - it can be as big as they come.
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 12:07

  • mingster #70 5 years ago

    yeah but if something exceeds 1dvd then how about this put it on 2 dvds and swap disks?

  • drumbaby #71 5 years ago

    Just because it's taken until the right format (in this case Blu Ray) is available for games to expand to 25gb per disc, it doesn't mean that this isn't the future of all game development. Give it a few years and this could well be the norm...just like multi-disc DVD games for DVD only machines I guess.

  • BartonFink #72 5 years ago

    LOL - disks filled up already by lazy developers.

    cobblers!!!!!

  • Stoatboy #73 5 years ago

    More storage space is definitely a good thing in the long run.

    Pretty sure it isn't really needed just yet though, so paying a couple of hundred quid extra to become a foot soldier in Sony's Blu-Ray army in the HD war is not high on my list of things to do, tbh.

  • Eighthours #74 5 years ago

    By the way, did Rob Fahey also write the blurb for this news story on EG?

  • CitizenErasedX #75 5 years ago

    What no one has really mentioned here is compression. Sure, 9GB wouldn't be a lot without some sort of lossless compression on texture and audio files...but low-and-behold, in the next-gen, the consoles are designed with compression in mind! (Well, the 360 anyway).

    It was recently announced that a compression technology will be released soon that can cut down game sizes by 70%. So, lets take Oblivion on the 360. 6.4Gb - cut it down by 70% - 1.92Gb. Now, that's Oblivion too. A game with hundreds of hours of gameplay, and a huge map. Now who wants to argue DVD9 wont suffice? Once games pushing the limits of DVD9 are pencilled in, this technology will be in the hands of developers.

    Other than that, the PS3 only has 256mb of RAM available to its GPU, so shoving 1080p textures into that isn't going to help either.

    One last thing - uncompressed, bulky textures isn't the future. Procedural Synthesis is. Ever wondered how the map in Just Cause is so huge? Or how the grass is processed in Oblivion? Or how all of the characters in Kameos fight scenes are duplicated, and then processed with their own AI? Yep. Procedural Synthesis! A Microsoft patented technology, with one aim - to cut down file sizes. Infact, there is a procedural synthesis demonstration game (which I've linked on this site in prior comments), called .kkrieger. It's made by a small german indie dev team, and it weighs in at a whopping 96K!

    It doesn't have bad graphics, in relation to it's size either. Take a look.

    [link url=http://kk.kema. at/files/gfx/full1.jpg
    ]http://kk.kema. at/files/gfx/full1.jpg
    [/link]

    and the official website

    [link url=http://212.202.219.16 2/kkrieger
    ]http://212.202.219.16 2/kkrieger
    [/link]

    I rest my case.

  • Steroyd #76 5 years ago

    yeah but if something exceeds 1dvd then how about this put it on 2 dvds and swap disks?

    Or devs save money printing a game on 2 discs and take the content out and sell it as MT's later.

    So many possibilities.

  • Kami #77 5 years ago

    You're right of course Crazyhorse. Something the industry doesn't seem to believe is that bigger is not always better, more space means that developers will either be lazy and not optimise or extend development time to fill out the extra space with extras no-one wants.

    There is of course a case for seeking a larger media format, there always is. But the question of course is whether Blu-Ray is really going to compete with the cheaper HD-DVD. Sony have a colourful history of absolute failures with trying to instigate new media types, either because they've not been appealing or they've just been far too expensive for the consumer market they are aimed at. It's already the case that Blu-Ray is going to up prices a bit, and 360 games are already doing some great things. So do we really right now need Sony to push a media format the market may not yet be ready to adopt?

    PS3's media type will of course as standard be Blu-ray, the argument I see is whether the format will break through to the rest of the media market, and if it doesn't...

  • MrChuckles #78 5 years ago

    Meh...

    Extra FMV and sound options that's it.

    The US won't have multi-region discs as they'd have to wait for the game to be translated into French and German.

    Extra game content to fill the disc would take so long to generate that the games would take too long to make to be financially viable.

    And upping texture bit depth would be fine if the engines written will be able to display them at a decent framerate. When it comes down to it, we will be hit the processor limit well before we hit the texture bit depth on disc.

    Personally, i reckon you won't need to fill up a normal DVD to create a decent next gen title, and if you do, you are doing something wrong. Lazy coding/design.

  • ChuckRialto #79 5 years ago

    More nonsense gibberish from Sony.

  • mingster #80 5 years ago

    So its pretty much unanimous then ... nobody believes that a game really does have to fill up a 25gbdisc.

    And if they do its just full of bumf and filler.

  • Foxclose #81 5 years ago

    I think a lot of people here are going to have to eat their words when MSFT include an HD-DVD internal drive or when games come on multiple discs on the X360.

    Even Peter Moore could not deny, that Sony may have some advantage over using a next gen optical media format. ;)
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 12:25

  • Kengro #82 5 years ago

    This is bullshi*...
    Ps3 has a big problem with the transfer rate from blueray to the acual machine, 9mb/sek is no good.
    One way to control the damage done by this low transfer rate i to put the acual game data on several places on the disk, that's why the games are larger...
    The 360 got a much higher transfer rate, 16mb/sek. So it dosen't need to do that...

    There are pros and cons with blueray, but i don't expect sony to say so. I acually don't belive a word more of what sony says, E3 05 destroyed the little credibility they got left with me

  • Dr.Mott #83 5 years ago

    If they can fit Assassin's Creed onto one DVD, then I'll know that Blu-Ray is not needed.

  • KD #84 5 years ago

    Wait and see is the only answer to all this, but i know i aint got the balls to back a sony made media format. My guess is the format that wins (hd-dvd or BR) is the first to have a writer avaible cheap on the pc market

  • Kafeen #85 5 years ago

    But the question of course is whether Blu-Ray is really going to compete with the cheaper HD-DVD.

    Is HD-DVD really that much cheaper?
    Is Blue-ray really that much more expencive?

    Lets see.

    HD-DVD
    [link url=http://www.play.com/DVD/HD%20DVD/NAVMAIN/5-/RegionHom e.html
    ]http://ww w.play.com/DVD/HD%20DVD/NAVMAIN...[/link]
    £14.99 - £17.99 - £23.99

    ok.

    Blu-Ray
    [link url=http://www.play.com/DVD/Blu-ray/NAVMAIN/5-/RegionHome. html
    ]http://ww w.play.com/DVD/Blu-ray/NAVMAIN/...[/link]
    £13.99 - £17-99

    i guess not.

  • WhyMeeeeee #86 5 years ago

    better tell the developers to use better compression techniques

  • Foxclose #87 5 years ago

    Well, they could not fit Metal Gear Sold 3: Subsistence on 1 DVD disc! ;)

    And that's just Dolby Pro Logic II with standard picture.
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 12:32

  • #88 5 years ago

    Also worthy of note - all but a handful of games will be multi-platform (PC, PS3, 360), and so developers will want to keep the total game size beloew that of DVD9.

    Also, if there really was the calling for "1080p content" and "7.1 audio" wouldn't we be seeing PC rigs with BruRay drives & games already? Traditionally the PC is at the bleeding edge of gaming hardware, and if no-one has seen a need for it yet in the PC world, why suddely the need for consoles?

    I also don't see why 7.1 is that must more demanding of storage than 5.1 - it purely processing as to where the sound decodes to. - Oh right, 7.1 in the hours upon hours of 1080p FMV we are going to sit through on out SD and 720p TVs, with at best a 5.1 setup.

    Seriously, is there anyone you know with a 1080p TV and 7.1 sound system? If so, that must have set them back well over £3-4000. Tak on another £450 - why the hell not!

    Also @ steroyd - way to ignore the other half of my post! :p

    BluRay also has Apple on it's side, and others. However, as a gaming format, I am highly dubious.

  • Nobuo #89 5 years ago

    "then how can such huge disk sizes (a la PS3) be justified?

    'Why, then, does the 360 have a DVD drive and not a floppy drive?'

    And daftest comment of the day goes to..."

    Are you serious? You do realise you answered your own question with my "daft" comment?

  • Steroyd #90 5 years ago

    Standard Hard Drive?
    Stopped Xbox games from re-repeating game data to increase load times.

    This is just like Sony's Online comments section here we have games that are physically using as much as 25Gb of disc space, and people are moaning on how it fills that space, just as people were moaning on how Sony could offer you the ability to play games online for free.

    If people are moaning about the bigger disc space, we might as well have just stuck with CD's.

  • #91 5 years ago

    No, the other half was about another person from Sony saying that optical media is basically on it's way out. Can't find the story now, but I can remember it.

  • mad_manic_man #92 5 years ago

    hey lets just think about GTA 50 gigabyte style.

  • #93 5 years ago

    CD -> DVD transition point is this: there were many, many games already surpassing one CD's worth of data, there was a percieved need for larger discs. There was also a need to replace VHS as Tapes had been by CDs.

    DVD -> HD/BluRay - how many games are surpassing this size format right now? A handful perhaps? At the same time we are seeing huge engine-driven games easily fit into a DVD disc. DVD seems much more than adequate to fit even the biggest titles.

    When HL2 Ep 1&2, TF2 and Portal come out for 360 you can bet the farm they will all fit on a DVD9.

  • Nobuo #94 5 years ago

    "It was completely different when the transition from CDs to DVDs took place. Multi-CD games were commonplace years before DVD became the standard. Most games shipped on 2 CDs and games spanning 4 to whopping 7 CDs weren't unheard of either."

    What was pushing up the filesizes on these 2-7 CD games? Wouldn't be... FMVs and stereo sound would it? Because apparently that's all just filler and is unnecessary. Also amusing is that 7 CDs is already larger than a single layer DVD, which is all that was available after the CD - DVD transition.

    IMO, more storage is better than less storage. Funny how only 360 owners seem to disagree. And stop saying that unoptimized code is what's filling the disc, unoptimized code places strain on the processor, it has a tiny effect on the filesize. I doubt anyone here's ever used a program that has 25 GBs of code in it, and even as a computer programmer I'd be genuinely gobsmacked if I was shown a program with 20 GBs of useless code.
    Edited by 3 at 17/10/06 @ 13:24

  • CitizenErasedX #95 5 years ago

    If Sony continue with the ability to allow standard HDDs, imagine what the hacking is going to be like for multiplayer. It's essentially handing them the game saves, isn't it?

    Also, you'll never see a 50Gb GTA, as it's also a 360 title now. Lowest common denominator =]
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 12:45

  • UncleLou #96 5 years ago

    The 360 is a fantastic machine. I really really like it. The only thing, you know, that is going to cause trouble is the amount of storage space available on a DVD... thats really a problem."

    Starbreeze

    "With DOA4, we'll be using the disc's capacity to its full extent. We started development on DOA4 pretty early, and we didn't know what disc format the Xbox 360 was going to adopt. So when we learned about it, we were really knocked out."

    Team Ninja

    So, are they talking bullshit, too?
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 12:48

  • CitizenErasedX #97 5 years ago

    DOA4 is

    a) not THAT impressive
    b) not that long either

    Also, an ISO rip of DOA4 actually proves it's 4.74Gb. So they're either talking bull, or just bothered to compress it in the last stages.
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 12:51

  • Steroyd #98 5 years ago

    hey lets just think about GTA 50 gigabyte style.

    Yeah that's the problem you can only imagine a 50Gb GTA.

  • JonFE #99 5 years ago

    I think that you are all missing Phil's point. He does not want to convince anyone that PS3 games fill the 25GB available space, thus making Blu-Ray an inevitable addition to PS3 hardware; he just wants to confirm that the Blu-Ray (at the moment?) can provide only 25GB and not 50GB as previously stated, thus making its capacity inferior than HD-DVD's :)

  • TurboBailey #100 5 years ago

    Am i the only person on here that thinks Blu-Ray is a good idea?
    How easy is it to fill a dual layer DVD with crap you've downloaded off the net.

  • Psi #101 5 years ago

    my car has a larger petrol tank than another car. therefore, it's clearly the better car. I win.

  • Steroyd #102 5 years ago

    No you're not but people seem to be under the assumption that they can only fill a 25Gb disc artificially through FMV or with useless crap.

    my car has a larger petrol tank than another car. therefore, it's clearly the better car. I win.

    But you're car can go further than the other car without a petrol refill.
    Which is the whole point isn't it?

    It's a marathon not a sprint.
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 13:07

  • cooper #103 5 years ago

    It's very, very hard to justify that having more storage space could be considered a bad thing.
    But it's really fun to read so many failed attempts. Please keep trying.

  • Artemus #104 5 years ago

    It'll be interesting to see a multi-platform title and the size comparisons.

  • bavelb #105 5 years ago

    @ cooper

    No, more storage space is never a bad thing when it comes for free. When your gaming machine becomes twice the price because of it (Bluray does nothing for gaming but added storage space), people will have a long hard look if its worth the price of entry.
    Edited by 2 at 17/10/06 @ 13:15

  • Syneisha #106 5 years ago

    Ummm...I don't know of any PC game that needs that much space currently, so I just wonder what they're filling all the sapce with?

  • GreasyWeasel #107 5 years ago

    Since Sony say they'll move to fully downloadable games after Blueray I really hope broadband speeds increase significantly. I don't fancy downloading 25-50GB or more per title even if it is a few years down the line.

  • bluebird #108 5 years ago

    I don't get it people. Storage space is a limit. Sony put the limit further away. Sounds good to me. This whole discussion seems a moot one.

    The argument that it is wasted space doesn't work for me. Don't underestimate the ability of creative people and companies to stretch a limit. Its so naive to assume that all of that will be unoptimized code. That there is no killer app right now that uses that 25 or more gig does not mean there won't be.

    Nor the argument that gameplay doesn't need 25 gigs. Of course it doesn't. You can make wonderful games without it. But that is not the point, the point is that it will allow games in the future that do and that can give new experiences.

    I think it is more interesting to discuss if the PS3 is actually equipped to use that space instead of if having that space is good. Stuff like its internal memory and the limited throughput of that blueray drive. Then again, developers will probably come up with smart (streaming, and yes, compression) ways to use it.
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 13:19

  • Nobuo #109 5 years ago

    "Ummm...I don't know of any PC game that needs that much space currently, so I just wonder what they're filling all the sapce with?"

    Because most PC games require installation onto the hard drive, sometimes as well as streaming from the DVD.

  • Eighthours #110 5 years ago

    I don't get it people. Storage space is a limit. Sony put the limit further away. Sounds good to me. This whole discussion is a moot one.

    The discussion is surely about the merits of Harrison's stated reasons for including a Blu-Ray drive into the PS3, which are rubbish. Sony want to make lots of money off a new disc format - simple. It's got nothing to do with "enhacing the gameplaying experience" at all, since all the evidence points to DVD9 being just fine for this generation's storage needs, particularly with all the new compression doodads being developed.

  • Khanivor #111 5 years ago

    No you're not but people seem to be under the assumption that they can only fill a 25Gb disc artificially through FMV or with useless crap.

    "my car has a larger petrol tank than another car. therefore, it's clearly the better car. I win. "

    But you're car can go further than the other car without a petrol refill.
    Which is the whole point isn't it?

    Not if the car with a bigger tank is horribly fuel-inefficient :D
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 13:24

  • captainrentboy #112 5 years ago

    Well if Resistance is going to be knocking on 25GB where as something like C.O.D 3 is going to fit on a standard dvd quite easily,surely Resistance should be blowing C.O.D 3 away in nearly every department by a fair old margin,graphics and game length being the main ones....Yet I can't see that happening,well not going from the previews and videos I've seen so far :/

  • crisotunity #113 5 years ago

    Stormflood: "But lets be honest, if Phil Harrison said we need oxygen to breathe, most of you would suffocate yourselves. And if Major Nelson said you could breathe underwater, we'd see Xbox fanboys washing up on beaches".

    +1
    Or, in the words of the Dear Leader:
    "No one will need more than 637 kb of memory for a personal computer".

  • Rash' #114 5 years ago

    A relative of mine who's into games but not very technically conscious asked me recently when it'll be that players could interact with everything on screen; from the door knob to the most important door in the Silent Hill series to the most pointless bit of foliage in GTA? I was a little taken a back by the question as clearly that won't happen for a good while yet, but the point is the ambition in his innocent question is something I feel is lacking in many "gamers" today.

    I accept that as a gaming format Blu-ray is a unproven commodity, but so too was DVD, and if we are to reach the lofty goals beyond the last gen then surely we should be aiming for technology that will help us reach there.

    I think it's important not to let Microsoft's PR speak cloud the issue here. Choice is important if what you're offering to your target audience is little to do with their needs, but clearly the HD format on PS3 serves more than just a movie player.

    Of course you can't blame Microsoft. They did what they had to to compete with a formidable rival. Has this led to a less than amibitious and not as advance piece of kit? I would say so. Will this lead to difficulties in development in the future? Only time will tell.

    For the time being it is important to recognise that Sony's platform can offer more possibilties to it's developers.
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 13:31

  • bavelb #115 5 years ago

    @ bluebird

    the discussion wouldve been moot if the consoles had comparable prices. The discussion isnt about if storage space is a good thing, its about the fact if its necessary.

    Making coffee with my x360 would not be a bad thing. If I had to pay 200 euro's extra for it, I will take a long hard look on the fact if its really a necessary option.

  • bluebird #116 5 years ago

    @eighthours: "The discussion is surely about the merits of Harrison's stated reasons for including a Blu-Ray drive into the PS3, which are rubbish."

    If you mean their (Sony) deeper motivation for adding it, I agree. They want to put down a new standard using the PS3 as a platform surely.

    At the same time, his quoted arguments, even if not the true reason for adding blueray, namely that DVD is a limit on game development for a 'next gen' platform, seem valid to me.

  • Nobuo #117 5 years ago

    since all the evidence points to DVD9 being just fine for this generation's storage needs

    DVD9 had already reached capacity during the last generation. Even the launch titles of the 360 are at the very edge.

    Or, in the words of the Dear Leader: "No one will need more than 637 kb of memory for a personal computer".

    YES! Thank God someone pulled that quote out of the bag. Applause.

  • bavelb #118 5 years ago

    tbh there we're very little amount of games that went over 4.5 gigs in the end of xbox's lifecycle. Considering I used ISO's the see which games I actually wanted to buy and burned 99% of them on single layer.

  • bluebird #119 5 years ago

    @bavelb: "the discussion wouldve been moot if the consoles had comparable prices. The discussion isnt about if storage space is a good thing, its about the fact if its necessary."

    Fair point. Necessary is hard to define though. I think it is necessary for the kind of platform that Sony are trying to create.

    Take the Wii, the aim of that console is not to woo people with graphics but with more simple pick-up-and-play gameplay elements that draw more people in. So they put extra effort into the controllers (accessibility) and not as much on storage, graphics and sound.

    Sony on the other hand try to put down the new benchmark in graphics power and performance (I'll leave open if they are succeeding ;-) ). That requires pushing the boundaries of graphics, processing power and also storage, none of which is cheap.

    That leaves in the middle if the Sony approach is your cup of tea... Personally I like both approaches, they each seem to spawn other kind of innovations.

    edit: typo fixed
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 13:38

  • lennon #120 5 years ago

    Cant see why DVD is a limit myself. If a game has to come on two or more DVD's then so be it. Im not so lazy that once every 10 hours I cant get out of my chair and change a disc over.

    When I reach that stage I will be glad Sony included a BR drive and will worship the ground that PH walks across.
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 13:40

  • oceanmotion #121 5 years ago

    When HL2 Ep 1&2, TF2 and Portal come out for 360 you can bet the farm they will all fit on a DVD9.

    True, it does comes on 1 DVD.

    Compression is all you need and the 360 is very good in that respect. Take a last gen example.

    Grand Theft Auto III

    PS2 - 4.32GB
    Xbox - 733MB

    Using compression also leads to better loading something that could be a problem on the PS3 if the devs decide to use uncompressed files.

  • manic_mouse #122 5 years ago

    "And how the hell can you critisice a game with multiple languages (well it looks like you're critisicing multiple languages on one disc), that means everyone around the world can get the game at the same time without waiting for localisation. "

    The speed of localisation has bugger all to do with disc size, why would it? Unless you expect devs to hold back the Jap/US releases just for us...

  • Baz_Dude #123 5 years ago

    Ummm, note that apparently fight night 3 on the PS3 is 14gb yet its an EXACT port of the xbox 360......

    Its called compression and until Sony stuck their heads into it every game was compressed to disc format

  • BartonFink #124 5 years ago

    Yup Blu-ray nice to have all the extra storage capacity but Harrisons assertion that Blu-ray is necessary for next gen gaming is bollox of the highest order.

    It's only in there in the first place to promote their new format otherwise we would have had the damn thing ages ago at a reasonable price :)

    Same old arguments rehashed everytime he opens his gob about Blu-ray.

  • BartonFink #125 5 years ago

    Using compression also leads to better loading something that could be a problem on the PS3 if the devs decide to use uncompressed files.

    All you have to do is look at the recent video of Motor Storm loading to confirm this.
    Definately leaving things open to some very shoddy lazy programming.

  • UncleLou #126 5 years ago

    Thread summary:

    PS3 fans: we NEED it
    360 fans: it's BULLSHIT

    Neutral people (and a few developers): Harrison might have a point, time will tell.

    Not exactly unexpected. :p

  • 2099net #127 5 years ago

    @ Cooper

    "It's very, very hard to justify that having more storage space could be considered a bad thing.
    But it's really fun to read so many failed attempts. Please keep trying. "

    No its not. Its about value firstly and secondly need. They could ship the PS3 with a 5 disc 5000GB raid array instead of a HDD. But people wouldn't justify the storage space on that for the cost.

    The Blu-Ray drive is costing Sony more money. Which is not only making the console more expensive for the consumer, it is also costing Sony money, as they are (estimated) to be loosing over $250 per console sold. There is, as people repeately say, no NEED for Sony to offer such poor VALUE when the brick wall hasn't been reached yet, like it was for floppies, and CDs.

    As for 4GB for one level of Lair, do you all really believe that? Do you know what 4GB of textures actually is? Do you know how long it would take to capture 4GB of textures. And if you're doing proper texture mapping, each has to be tweaked manually to fit the object its being mapped onto - you don't just map any old pattern onto any old shape. There's a reason films like Toy Story have a shed-load of credits at the end. And everyone who works on the models/textures needs paying!

    OK, so its not textures, its for animation or sound. Wrong again. You can fit a whole 40 of a HD movie into 4GB. Do you really think a whole level will have 40 mins of cut scenes? If it does, do you actually want to "play" it?

  • jamesbee #128 5 years ago

    It isn't that extra storage space isn't nice to have, it's the way Sony go about desperatly trying to convince the world how vital it already is. "Already we are having problems getting things into 25gb and oh thank the lord we have that extra 25gb coming soon, what would we do without it!! "

    Their argument probably holds water in a few years, not at launch!

  • ave #129 5 years ago

    "But you're car can go further than the other car without a petrol refill.
    Which is the whole point isn't it?

    It's a marathon not a sprint."
    Which is why MS are on the bleeding edge of compression technology and sony are where?

    @Nobuo: When you dont have a harddrive, each disc needs to contain shared content(like maps) and those 7 CD's could probably be cut down to 2/3'rds that on a DVD.


    The fact that almost all PC games still come on cd's is quite amusing.

  • UncleLou #130 5 years ago

    The fact that almost all PC games still come on cd's is quite amusing.

    Hm? I can't even remember the last time I saw a PC game on CDs.

  • mkreku #131 5 years ago

    I don't understand why people are going nuts over the Blu-Ray's capabilities? The Playstation 3 will be able to read DVD's too. Noone's forced to use the Blu-Ray (although it wouldn't surprise me at all if Sony actually did force developers to use Blu-Ray to get it started). But it's there! It can show movies in 1080p! It can fit all the Metal Gear Solid's in one huge pack (the Playstation 3 is backwards compatible)!

    It's not needed right now, granted, but it sure adds a certain future-proof feeling about the Playstation 3. The Xbox 360 will be fine with the DVD drive it has, just as the Playstation 3 will be fine with the Blu-Ray DVD it has. They're not mutually exclusive you know.

  • Kengro #132 5 years ago

    The problem with blueray isn't the increase in capastiy, it's the decrease in transfer speed. Transfer speed is by far a bigger issue for developers than the size of the disk itself

  • Frogger #133 5 years ago

    Most of next-gen games will be multiplatform. Does he really thinks that game studios and publishers will use for the same game 50GB of datas for one console and 9GB for the other ones ?

    All multiplatform games (90% of the market) will fit into 9GB, except maybe for FMV.

  • Nobuo #134 5 years ago

    "When you dont have a harddrive, each disc needs to contain shared content(like maps) and those 7 CD's could probably be cut down to 2/3'rds that on a DVD."

    Except for the fact that the 7 CD games were all FMV adventures (on PS1 at least) and didn't have any shared content? If you want to carry on that argument you'd also have to mention that the quality of the FMV back then would be unacceptable these days, and an acceptable standard would take up even more space?

    "The fact that almost all PC games still come on cd's is quite amusing."

    Amusing and wrong. The last PC game I had on CDs was FFXI, and it came on 7 of them (true story, look it up). All installed onto the hardrive too, so no shared content there.

    "Most of next-gen games will be multiplatform."

    lmao. Wii wins the console war hands down then.
    Edited by 2 at 17/10/06 @ 14:29

  • ave #135 5 years ago

    "Hm? I can't even remember the last time I saw a PC game on CDs."

    Dawn of War?
    World of Warcraft?
    Rome Total War?
    Winter Assault?
    GTR?
    Empire at War?

    The only game I've bought in the last 3 years that came on DVD was BF2.

    Next time you're in GAME or the local equivalent, take a gander at the PC-DVD/CD-ROM stickers on the top left, a lot of the new big releases are DVD but the majority are still CD.


    "Except for the fact that the 7 CD games were all FMV adventures (on PS1 at least) and didn't have any shared content?"
    Did I mention any names? I have no idea what games were 7 cd's, but I have at elast 10 PS1 games with 2-4 CD's, none of which are FMV adventures(not that it bothered me needing to change disc)

    "If you want to carry on that argument you'd also have to mention that the quality of the FMV back then would be unacceptable these days, and an acceptable standard would take up even more space?"
    If you want to carry on that argument you'd also have to mention that using the in game engine for cutscenes back then was unheard of, where now it's the norm?


    "Amusing and wrong."
    Amusing and wrong.
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 14:29

  • crisotunity #136 5 years ago

    UncleLou: "PS3 fans: we NEED it
    360 fans: it's BULLSHIT

    Neutral people (and a few developers): Harrison might have a point, time will tell".

    Not a bad summary :-)
    The sad truth is that both MS and Sony got this next-gen war started a bit too soon for themselves and the consumers and are now using insane PR to cover up their mess.
    Both MS and Sony are using the consumers as beta-testers for their un-proven hardware. Please don't flame me X360 fanboys, but you know that the quality control in terms of RevA hardware has been less than stellar. Also, a saner release date for the PS3 (summer '07 perhaps) would have meant adequate stocks for everyone and proper design (sixaxis my a**; and we'll have to wait and see about PS3's reliability).
    More importantly, a later release for both consoles would have allowed these systems to integrate hybrid technologies for reading both HD and Blu-Ray film content. As a consumer, I do not give a damn which kind they prefer to use to license their games, but being told that a certain film is not available to me in HD because some marketing monkey decided it is against their interests (after charging me around £400 for either 360+HD or PS3), is unacceptable.

  • Psi #137 5 years ago

    capacity isnt a big issue. as mentioned pc games are still on cd alot.

    makes no difference to the game, id rather do without months of fmv in game and actually play the damn thing myself.

    then again i dont want a next gen console to play fucking digdug.

    fingers crossed the wii makes a splash.

  • Steroyd #138 5 years ago

    As for 4GB for one level of Lair, do you all really believe that? Do you know what 4GB of textures actually is? Do you know how long it would take to capture 4GB of textures. And if you're doing proper texture mapping, each has to be tweaked manually to fit the object its being mapped onto - you don't just map any old pattern onto any old shape.

    Meh! Factor 5 have said that they're going to be streaming the data straight from the disc, which helps.

    Plus this is the same Factor 5 that did Rogue Squadron on the freaking Gamecube... you know? The console with the 1.8Gb medium.

    So... yeah i am gullible enough to listen to Factor 5.

  • holloguts #139 5 years ago

    Sounds to me like some very bloated programming. Of course he's bound to say this. Considering Microsoft have matched Sony (even surpassed Sony), the only thing left for them to go on about is the disc capacity. Forcing a dvd format on to gamers in the hope getting it to be successful is sad. Sony are arrogant and disregard the customer base. Forcing gamers to pay for Sony's attempts to get it's blue ray successful above HD DVD.

    They'll be telling us they need to put them on 2 discs next.

    I hope the PS3 is successful, it will be a decent console as good as the 360 (equal, doubtful better), but it's the Sony hype that puts me off the PS3. If Sony did not over hype and treat customers with arrogance then I would be more interested in the PS3, but I can't stomach all the **** they spout, and the fact that they believe we should be on our hands and knees begging to pay over the odds for it.

    Have they announced everything that is to be taken out of the original specs yet? I don't want to miss that one. Jaggies on the PS3 perhaps, just to be backward compatible with the emotional PS2.



  • Nobuo #140 5 years ago

    "Next time you're in GAME or the local equivalent, take a gander at the PC-DVD/CD-ROM stickers on the top left, a lot of the new big releases are DVD but the majority are still CD."

    Yes, multiple CDs! And didn't you say earlier that installing them on a hard drive means no shared data?

    "I have no idea what games were 7 cd's, but I have at elast 10 PS1 games with 2-4 CD's, none of which are FMV adventures"

    So your arguing against a point I didn't make?

    "If you want to carry on that argument you'd also have to mention that using the in game engine for cutscenes back then was unheard of, where now it's the norm?"

    You've got to be kidding me. I think you'll find that pre-rendering cutscenes used to be unheard of. Ever played an RPG?

  • #141 5 years ago

    I have no issue with BluRay as a format at all.

    My main problem is with people insisting it is absolutley necessary in a games console, and then giving reasons why that are all apart from gameplay innovation.

  • UncleLou #142 5 years ago

    "Hm? I can't even remember the last time I saw a PC game on CDs."

    Dawn of War?
    World of Warcraft?
    Rome Total War?
    Winter Assault?
    GTR?
    Empire at War?

    The only game I've bought in the last 3 years that came on DVD was BF2.

    Next time you're in GAME or the local equivalent, take a gander at the PC-DVD/CD-ROM stickers on the top left, a lot of the new big releases are DVD but the majority are still CD.

    The majority? No way, not if we talk about real games (and not all the low budget crap you typically find in the PC section, too).

    I buy a lot of PC games, and I am always well surprised if I find CDs in the box, it fortunately happens very rarely. Most games you mention are a couple of years old, anyway. Gothic 3, Company of Heroes, Prey, Titan Quest, Civ IV, Oblivion, FEAR, NfS: MW, X3, Tomb Raider, GT Legends, just from the top of my head what I bought in the last year or so, are all on DVD. The only exception I can think of at the moment is Rise of Legends.

  • Carrybagma #143 5 years ago

    All BDs come with a range of free HD "Phil Harrison.bmp" files

  • Pooley #144 5 years ago

    Isn't it Sony's intention to have the PS3 as a kind of home media hub, as well as a games machine? Evidence of the recent stuff about NP online would seem to support this.

    Therefore if you want to create the next gen home console/hub, you need next gen storage capacity to help with this. The internet is not there yet to enable this (i.e. we all haven't got 100Mbps links to our ISP), so the only option is the replacement for DVD.

    Which Sony hopes will be BluRay.

    Look how much the PS2 helped with DVD adoption. Therefore Sony will be hoping that the PS3 will do the same job for BluRay. With the added benefit that BluRay is their standard.

    All this talk about games needing the extra capacity seems to be Sony just trying to add extra justification for it's inclusion. However, in the long run, this console will need to last for the next 10 years. Do we honestly think that DVD will still be the choice over that time?

  • ave #145 5 years ago

    "Yes, multiple CDs! And didn't you say earlier that installing them on a hard drive means no shared data?"
    Amusing and wrong.

    Didnt you say earlier that it was amusing and wrong that the majority of PC games still come on CD's? Yeah, right.

    I never said most console games still come on CD's, I said PC games.


    "So your arguing against a point I didn't make?"
    Amusing and wrong.
    Sorry if you forgot already, but you posted "What was pushing up the filesizes on these 2-7 CD games?".


    "You've got to be kidding me. I think you'll find that pre-rendering cutscenes used to be unheard of."
    Amusing and wrong.

    You posted earlier "What was pushing up the filesizes on these 2-7 CD games? Wouldn't be... FMVs and stereo sound would it?", seems you changed your mind mighty fast.

    "Ever played an RPG?"
    Yes, have you?



    "The majority? No way, not if we talk about real games (and not all the low budget crap you typically find in the PC section, too). "
    Of course, only "real games" count, my mistake Lou.
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 14:53

  • UncleLou #146 5 years ago

    Of course, only "real games" count, my mistake Lou.

    Yes, in the context of this thread, where it's about storage needs of high-profile games, not the fact that "Mahjongg Deluxe" for 3 quid might come on a CD.

    Please, don't act now as if that wasn't obivous.

  • #147 5 years ago

    Why are you even fighting about multiple CDs vs DVDs? Didn't we a ll agree that the adoption of the DVD as a gaming format was necessary?

    I thought the topic was whether we need BluRay discs as out gaming media?

  • SeesThroughAll #148 5 years ago

    Oh, good grief, Phil. Just cut the crap.
    Yes, it's handy for internationalization, but let's leave it at that.

  • peterfll #149 5 years ago

    Look, for HD movies etc yes, Blu Ray and HD DVD are needed. But while you still can get highly detailed and "next gen" experiences from standard DVD9 content a la PC and 360, Phil's going to have a hard time convincing otherwise.....

  • BartonFink #150 5 years ago

    [pedant]

    Internationalisation != Localisation

    [/pedant]

    But yea you are right in the context of necessity he talketh form the giant arse.
    In the context of a format there are definately lots of advantages to more space but they are nothing that cannot be gotten around by other means.

  • Darren #151 5 years ago

    I think someone hit the nail on the head earlier when they said that 90% of console games are multi-format and, thus, developed for the lowest common denominator. With development costs already very expensive, it's highly unlikely that any third party developer will splash out extra costs to fill up Blu-ray discs. Perhaps they'll have higher quality sound and pre-rendered FMV but that's about all I'd expect. On that basis, it's hard to say that the PS3 absolutely needs Blu-ray because only 10% of its games, i.e. the exclusives, will actually make proper use of it.

    And when you consider that developers like EA struggle to include all the features and modes from the last-gen games in their Xbox 360 games due to time constraints, it defies belief that they of all people will ever use more than 9GBs of Blu-ray space! LOL

    I'd like to be proven wrong but all I see are PS3 games having move videos and better quality sound in the same way that PSone games that came on 650MB CDs had the advantage over N64 cartridges that were typically just 16MB in size. In other words, that none of those things actually make a scrap of difference to how the game actually plays which is the important thing nor do I believe that we'll see longer games on the PS3 either as a result of a larger disc format. On that score, I can't see Blu-ray as being essential at all, just a nice luxury for the developers as it means they don't have to put so much effort into compressing data and stuff.

  • ave #152 5 years ago

    "Yes, in the context of this thread, where it's about storage needs of high-profile games, not the fact that "Mahjongg Deluxe" for 3 quid might come on a CD.

    Please, don't act now as if that wasn't obivous."
    Come on Lou.

    This isnt about "high profile PS3 games needing 25-75gb", its about Harrison saying all games will need the extra space soon because some idiotic games are so bloated they're approaching 25gb.

    If that's the case, PC games should have switched over wholly to DVD's, when, around the mid 90's?

    I said that most PC Games still come on CD, which they do, if you want to argue that the cream of the genre come on DVD I wont argue, but they make up the tiniest amount of the total games released/produced/sold.(like arguing that most cars get under 15mpg, then saying that it only counts to high performance sports cars because they're high profile!).

    "High profile" pc games in 2004 werent much(if at all) smaller than high profile pc games now, the only differences are that the production capacity of DVD's have increased, the production costs have decreased and the installed base has increased(and funnily enough, most of the games I listed were re-released on DVD this year).
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 15:15

  • UncleLou #153 5 years ago

    Fair enough, our argument is a bit context-free, anyhow.

  • Nobuo #154 5 years ago

    "Didnt you say earlier that it was amusing and wrong that the majority of PC games still come on CD's?"

    Erm, yeah? Not including Disney's latest point and click adventure they are mostly on DVDs. A few old titles are multi-CD, granted, but that doesn't at all prove that CDs are sufficient.

    ""So your arguing against a point I didn't make?"
    Amusing and wrong.
    Sorry if you forgot already, but you posted "What was pushing up the filesizes on these 2-7 CD games?"."

    What actually happened was I mentioned that most 7 disc games were FMV adventures. You countered by saying that 2-4 disc games weren't, which I thought was a pretty crap rebuttal.

    ""You've got to be kidding me. I think you'll find that pre-rendering cutscenes used to be unheard of."
    Amusing and wrong.

    You posted earlier "What was pushing up the filesizes on these 2-7 CD games? Wouldn't be... FMVs and stereo sound would it?", seems you changed your mind mighty fast.""

    Misquoting, and badly. Clearly two different arguements.

    1. You said that prerendering used to be the norm until recently, which I still suggest is a little backward.

    2. I maintain that multi-disc games are so because they are full of FMV and the like, unless a hard drive is involved.

    I'll think you'll find these points are compatible.

    Anyway I'm washing my hands of this argument now because I'm clearly talking to a moron.
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 18:23

  • ronuds #155 5 years ago

    It would have been nice if he gave some examples... besides Resistance, which we've all heard about more than enough times.

    I don't see why anyone's surprised that he's saying this, though. Sony has drastically changed their tune since the beginning when they said blu-ray was a bonus for movies.

  • wired009 #156 5 years ago

    I agree with Nobuo and Bluebird on this topic. I think that most of the Blue-ray bashers are concerned more about the PS3 launch price than with the actual games, which we know little about at this time. The PS3 will be expensive at launch but I also know that I can wait for the price to come down if I choose. I do think Phil H made good points and will give the PS3 the benefit of the doubt until I see the actual console in action. If the visual fidelity is there, I'll consider the Blue-ray as a serious contender because I care about graphics and HD movie playback (I'm not worried about game content. Anyone honestly think the games will be worse than those on the 360?). If anything, I'm worried about the hardware such as the controller issues that were discussed in yesterday's article. Expecting 3-4x more game content / gameplay time / whatever that even means = you are retarded. And for the unimaginative ones on next gen consoles without portable media storage...think streaming games. It could happen.
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 15:36

  • Pooley #157 5 years ago

    @yellowtruck

    Yep, so much so that they're already talking about a replacement.

    Bet the replacement won't have a DVD-9 in it...

  • NthSimulachum #158 5 years ago

    Compression of game assets isn't a luxury, but a necessity due to the speed of disc access and the limits upon ram. I'd love to see a game with 25gb of game assets, as opposed to FMV, load off the disk. 25gb of compressed game assets...I'd love to see how many artists THAT would take.

    Heck, even the 360 struggled a bit with Oblivion, despite the higher transfer speed of its DVD drive, due to shoddy compression of some elements.

    Plus, surely with such huge processing power available to the PS3, it makes far more sense to use procedural content generation, than access unnecessarily huge files on disc, to make for a faster gameplay experience, and a more adaptable one?

  • sharpfish #159 5 years ago

    Harrison is king nob at Sony. Always has been.

    If he thinks any sane person believes that amount of space is taken up with anything related to "gameplay" then he is deluded.

    Movies, speech, music, blah de blah - all needed but not an excuse for gameplay.

    Textures you say? High res frickin textures? Sounds nice in theory to shove brilliant and massive textures on the disc to make the game look amazing, the only problem is the MACHINE can't handle it - you HAVE checked out the ram on the GPU yes? (Half of the 360). So I doubt very much it has anything to do with gigs and gigs of high res textures, the GPU just couldn't handle them and the swapping would be mad.

    Coming from Phil, it's just more PR and BS. I am actually very wary of games with such huge assets and media production because corners will have to be cut somewhere and gameplay will be the first time "waster" to go because you don't notice it in glossy adverts.

  • captainrentboy #160 5 years ago

    Yes yellowtruck,I think Microsoft should just scrap the console and it's upcoming games like G.O.W,R6,Bioshock,Assassins creed,Lost planet,Too human,Alan Wake,Halo 3(You get the idea)Scrap 'em all yeah,and even though potentially great games like those will fit on to the dvd format no worries,MS should can them and admit that dvd just isn't a big enough storage medium for next gen titles.
    Like a few of you have said if games need to be bigger than 9GB i'm more than happy to switch a dvd over to continue the game 20 hours in.(I'm aware disc switching isn't ideal for some genres,but for the majority it should be fine)
    I'll happily admit that Blu-Ray could come in very handy for some of the more adventerous developers out there,and having Blu-Ray could lead to some corking exclusives for the PS3 a few years down the line.
    But I find it very hard to swallow that Blu-Ray was needed from the off,and that next gen games desperately need that extra space to accomodate the best games possible.

  • dk_rare #161 5 years ago

    Lee “Blerk” Tonks again is boorishly predictable. He must just wait around Eurogamer to be one of the first to jump in just to say things like “Uh oh! Here we go!” and other ‘gems’ not unlike “Hehe, I’ll grab the popcorn”. Well, I guess in his defense, it IS much easier than actually contributing to a discussion. Especially if you want to be one of the first to reply, but simply aren’t sharp enough to think of anything intelligent to say in time. Akin to saying “firstorz!!oneoneone”.

    I find it curious that Sony seem to be so proud that their format is already “getting close to the limit” before the console is even out and that apparently that limit will need raising after only one year. I’m not sure that is something to be proud of.

  • bigbadbeasty #162 5 years ago

    Well we all know that Blu-Ray has only been added because the Sony big-wigs said they wanted it there. They want the format to win the war, they feel this is the best way to do this. They will try to justify it again and again.

    Anyone with a little sense will know that 25-50gb for a game is not needed. They are simply saying this so that Joe Bloggs in the street thinks he is getting a good deal. Don't forget When an unsuspecting mother asks about which console to buy for her spoilt child, shops like Game will back Sony up with this nonsense.

  • yashin #163 5 years ago

    There's a lot to be said for restriciting developers to smaller formats.

    In the halcyon days of the Amgia/ST, a fancy pants game like Monkey Island 2 came on 16(?) 800K floppy disks and had a total playing time of about ten hours. David Braben's Frontier: Elite II on the other hand came on one disk and was almost endlessly playable.

    Someone earlier cited the leap to DVD making GTA3 possible, and that's probably true. But in the end, DMA/Rockstar North were so good at compressing their content, they could fit a game that was five or six times the size of GTA3 onto a single DVD.

  • old_skool #164 5 years ago

    There's a lot to be said for restriciting developers to smaller formats.

    In the halcyon days of the Amgia/ST, a fancy pants game like Monkey Island 2 came on 16(?) 800K floppy disks and had a total playing time of about ten hours. David Braben's Frontier: Elite II on the other hand came on one disk and was almost endlessly playable.

    That's the whole point of having a larger storage format . Storage is to developers what a canvass is to a painter . The Pope could've asked Michelangelo to paint his works on a series of canvasses instead of the Sistene Chapel , but it surely wouldn't have had the same effect .Other artists don't need a whole building just a small piece a paper.Game development , being a creative occupation it is , you'll find an ambitious designer to create his dreams .Why should he be limited by a piece of paper ?This whole thread is going in circles because it's gamers making the arguments .

  • Dizzy #165 5 years ago

    And UMD is doing well!

  • Kami #166 5 years ago

    Right, seen enough BS.

    1) Blu-Ray is so far for movies comparatively the ame as HD-DVD (Nice try to convince us it's cheaper, because a sales cut does not make it a cheaper medium - it's RRP is what we look for!) - of course prices fluctuate but that also depends on the movie (Bigger names will cost more it seems). For games, however, we've been warned to expect some price rises. This, of course, will change very quickly depending on which media format takes off. Mass market penetration will make either format cheaper through demand, the problems with Blu-Ray are that Sony themselves said it was a more expensive media format to make. Mass production is a funny term because dependant on what is being made will ultimitely decide numbers - and if a company like Sony freely admits the media format costs a little more to make, then questions can start to arise about how it will level out price-wise. Neither of these formats are hugely necessary yet really, so we'll have to see over this generation which format does base out, and which one gains most marketshare. Sony's track record isn't good though... and they seem to be counting on Blu-ray as a format to take off to offset losses. This is dangerous and a risk that may or may not be worth Sony's taking...

    2) Space is not the be all and end all. I have a 120GB hard drive. Does that make my computer better than one with an 80GB hard drive? Far from it. Whilst I may have more space, it's how the space is used, how often you optimise it, and ultimately everything else about the computer from processor to the media bay and the graphics card etc. There is SO MUCH MORE to performance than "space". Another comparison is a person may have a bigger flat than the person next door, but the one in the bigger flat has loads of clutter and it's a mess compared to the clean and tidy look in the smaller flat which has a place for everything and everything in its place. Which has more space in the end? Which will find things the fastest? No argument there at all really.

    3) The ultimate problem Sony have is the phenomenal level of BULL**** we, the paying customers, have had to endure the past couple of years. It seems whenever Harrison or another Sony official open their mouths we get another heap of smelly stuff. Sony has begin to suffer from "Verbal Diarrhea", a condition which means all we've heard of late from them mainly is a load of crap. The consumer doesn't care, I don't care, I couldn't care less about media formats, space etc. I (a) want to be convinced that the price is worth it and that the technology isn't going to crash-land in the next 2 years and become completely worthless and (b) I want a proper, honest answer from Sony about delays, why they didn't forsee their current problems and whether we will get it in March and whether the likes of Harrison would stake their jobs on it being here by that time (my guess is not).

    The issue here is that many of us have lost a lot of faith in Sony of late - I reverted back to a second-hand chunky PS2 after my slimline one packed up again, so my trust in Sony's build quality recently is non-existant. Sony had problems getting the PSP to us, and even then UMD as a movie format was a disaster. Not to mention poor E3 press showing, execs which seem to only alienate themselves more, and some rather bad press earlier in the year all culminates in asking what the hell are Sony doing?

    Sony may bounce back. We may forget our concerns in the future, Sony may turn out to be justified. But Sony are going through a difficult period and some of the consumers out there are concerned and feel a bit worried about what is going on. Me being one of them. Sony really, REALLY have to start convincing us NOW that everything will be alright in the end, that there is light at the end of the tunnel even if we can't see it. Until Sony can convince me that the PS3 isn't some overly-glorified media penetration device that carries a huge risk of falling flat on its face and ending up a laughing stock, I'll be very wary of rushing in too soon... £500-£600 is not a small investment in a machine that seems to carry such huge risks...

  • SeesThroughAll #167 5 years ago

    And UMD is doing well!

    Because Tekken DR and LocoRoco are on UMD, can't see any other reason.

  • dk_rare #168 5 years ago

    "That's the whole point of having a larger storage format . Storage is to developers what a canvass is to a painter ."

    The most famous painting in the world, the Mona Lisa, comes in at 77 × 53 cm. That is really really small. And there is a lot of detail in that, bloody 'eck there is a lot of detail in it. It's a work of art, it is THE most famous painting in the known universe.

    But it's so small that I could stuff it into my laptop bag, take it home and put it on my fridge door.

    A huge canvas, to a painter, is expensive. A canvas the size of the Sistine Chapel would cost thousands of dollars, most artists could not afford to paint on it. Anyway, it is so big that it would look rubbish, painters would just throw buckets of paint on it and call it art (assuming the painter could afford the canvas to begin with) or else they could spend years painting the Frescoes and using all that space, but people would complain that it took a decade to paint.

    I guess my point is that comparing disc space for console games to canvas size for artists is actually counter intuitive to your argument.

  • 2099net #169 5 years ago

    @Steroyd

    "Meh! Factor 5 have said that they're going to be streaming the data straight from the disc, which helps.

    Plus this is the same Factor 5 that did Rogue Squadron on the freaking Gamecube... you know? The console with the 1.8Gb medium.

    So... yeah i am gullible enough to listen to Factor 5. "

    I don't care if its streaming data or not. Somebody still has to put the work in to make 4GB of level data. I ask again, do you have any comprehension what can be stored in 4GB of data (especially if compressed)?

    Even farming the repetative clean-up and fixing to China or India (which sadly seems to be the latest "in" thing to do) the manpower required to actually source, create, transform and then map on anything close to 4GB of textures would be a huge undertaking.

    Presumably all these assets are mapped on unique human created (and animated when needed) polygon objects. So they must have been tweaked and transformed prior to mapping, or else, whats the point of having hi-res textures if they just warp and mesh on the polygons.

    Perhaps by streaming it, Factor 5 aren't compressing it at all. But even then, 4GB of data still seems insanely huge. I applaud them if it is to stop repetition of textures - but don't forget: textures, even if from photos still have to be sourced. They don't just grow on trees. It takes time, even photographing the weave on a pair of curtains takes time to photograph, extract, clean up etc.

    There's a reason CGI films have budgets of millions of dollars. Even the critically unremarkable Valiant, using off the shelf rendering packages cost an estimated $40m. About 4 times the cost of the most expensive current gen game budgets. And the money doesn't all go on rendering farms. Its time to actually create the virtual assets for the film. Are all game budgets to double or treble over night. Given the low take-up of PS3s for the first year (10m opposed to 100m+ PS2) will developers ever make their money back if they do? Are we to expect development teams of 2 or 3 hundred to become the norm?

  • chronom4n #170 5 years ago

    "I see nothing wrong with having non-interactive, full HD sequences as part of the game," he said. "That's all part of the production value and the experience that you get when you buy the game. I don't see that as a weakness at all."

    unbelievable.

  • SentientNr6 #171 5 years ago

    Then show us the games!
    Nothing I've seen so far needs 25GB of data!

  • JonFE #172 5 years ago

    Could it be that Cell, well, y'know, sucks at decompressing stuff???





    /whispers innocently
    //is anxiously hoping to start a rumour

  • miiiguel #173 5 years ago

    I need to see it in order to believe!

    This statment comes from the same guys that said "UMD is the future of portable media format"

    "What's UMD ?"; "What's MidiDisk ?" "What's BetaMAX ?"

  • thinktank #174 5 years ago

    i'll worry about this after ive finished playing GoW, Halo3, Mass effect, bioshock, lost planet, Forza 2, ect.

    I'll leave you lot to the school yard squabble, you seem to quite enjoy it.

  • septimus #175 5 years ago

    PS3: The sloppy coders console!

    I'm sure going to enjoy all that 1080p footage... in MPEG2! Maybe even full frame uncompressed to fill 50GB.

    Go Sony! It's is the size of your disc that counts. I think Sony heads were bullied in the showers at school and no need to inflate their e-penis.
    Edited by 1 at 17/10/06 @ 17:53

  • JediMasterMalik #176 5 years ago

    WOW, this thread is so full of shit it's unbeleivable.

    BD is good for games, and it doesn't mean developers will just get lazy because the can, developers don't actively try make bad products you know?

    Nothing Phil said made him look like an arse or a dick or whatever you idiots are calling him, he was just saying what everyone one of you expected him to say, honestly some of you seem so stupid at times, acting like companies are here to be honest and do you a favour. The inclusion of Blu-Ray, and the reasoning behind it shouldn't concern you, what should concern you is if you think it will benefit you as a consumer, if you don't, the answer is simple, DON'T BUY A FUCKING PS3. (and I gaurantee there will be games, right from the go, which will use the extra space wisely, and not with filler material)

    Loking at the history of the PS, every new one has had a new format, why change it now? (Even if UMD isn't so hot)

    I also don't see why you people hate CGI so much all of a sudden, it really does contribute to games, and we know games this gen, though coming close, will not look like CGI, quite why, all of a sudden, CGI has become a bad thing, confuses me.

    /summons kangarootoo to bring some decency to the thread
    Edited by 2 at 17/10/06 @ 17:56

  • septimus #177 5 years ago

    Mmm, yes they are doing Blu-Ray for us, why didn't I see that before.

    I though it was due to Sony wanting to control the distribution market of movies and games. Silly me.

  • captainrentboy #178 5 years ago

    ''i'll worry about this after ive finished playing GoW, Halo3, Mass effect, bioshock, lost planet, Forza 2, ect. ''
    My thoughts exactly,why 360 owners feel the need to get soo upset i'll never know,especially with sooo many corkers coming up.

  • spongebob #179 5 years ago

    How is it possible that once again we have nearly 200 comments on a PS3 news article whereas a news article about new Xbox already being prepped (not really a surprise, since probably even Nintendo is planning their next Revolution) gets only 50 or so?

  • dk_rare #180 5 years ago

    "How is it possible that once again we have nearly 200 comments on a PS3 news article whereas a news article about new Xbox already being prepped (not really a surprise, since probably even Nintendo is planning their next Revolution) gets only 50 or so?"

    What can we say, Sony and Sony's choices really Grinds our Gears.

  • miiiguel #181 5 years ago

    "it the most widely supported new video format since the DVD launched in 1997"
    Sony home-video president Ben Feingold, Sep/2005 presenting the new format UMD.

    http://ww w.msnbc.msn.com/id/9379116/site...

  • miiiguel #182 5 years ago

    spongebob: because Sony is GOD on earth!

  • miiiguel #183 5 years ago

    spongebob:... and maybe it's funny to see how "Sony-only consumers" take the company they have shares of news, so personally.

  • AOFanboi #184 5 years ago

    <em>can provide only 25GB and not 50GB as previously stated, thus making its capacity inferior than HD-DVD's :)</em>

    Yeah, single-layer Blu-Ray is less than - but nearly as much as - dual-layer HD-DVD. When the 50 MB dual-layer Blu-Ray platters hit the stores, what's HD-DVD going to do? Invest in a Swedish Penis Pump (tm)?

  • old_skool #185 5 years ago

    @dkrare
    If you read my post properly you'd have seen that I said some painters only need a page .My arguments for a larger format has nothing to do with cost , or any particular type of format ( be it blu-ray or hd-dvd ) , that having a larger format enables creative ideas to come to pass. Of course larger capacity alone won't do that but it's an important cog in the wheel .If Microsoft had an hd-dvd drive as a core part of the 360 and Sony had a DVD drive I still would have said a larger drive is a benefit .If developers can't realise their dreams because of cost then that's too bad but at least the option is there.
    Could GTA3 have been put on CD . Sure it could and in a way it was .There's no real difference gameplay wise between GTA 1 ,2 and 3 , you still hijacked cars , went from point A to B , shot people , got jobs from the Mafia and drove around a whole city.But GTA3 is so much different .
    Would Shadow of the Collosus fit on a CD .Sure it can , just have lower resolution objects , smaller bosses , smaller world to explore . Would it have given the same experience ? Not a chance .
    Not every game needs large disk space , all games are different .But some games do need them and some developers might have ideas that require a large disk .

    I think I'll leave this thread , this has been argued to death and I've said what I wanted to .

  • miiiguel #186 5 years ago

    "it the most widely supported new video format since the DVD launched in 1997"
    Sony home-video president Ben Feingold, Sep/2005 presenting the new format UMD.

    http://ww w.msnbc.msn.com/id/9379116/site...

  • miiiguel #187 5 years ago

    bigger movies = better movies
    bigger cars = better cars
    bigger penis = better penis
    bigger women = better women
    bigger HD = better computers
    bigger men = better men
    and...
    bigger games = better games

    Size matters!

  • Xerx3s #188 5 years ago

    Perhaps it's because sony doesn't use state of the art compression techniques? (i.e. film BRD = 2/1 HDDVD = 5-10/1)

  • effinwooly #189 5 years ago

    lol @ miguell

  • Les #190 5 years ago

    ""it the most widely supported new video format since the DVD launched in 1997""

    And that's not a lie. If you can name a better supported video format since DVD...

    /off to KH2, who actually needs next gen? Don't believe the hype... ;)

  • yagisencho #191 5 years ago

    "I see nothing wrong with having non-interactive, full HD sequences as part of the game," he said. "That's all part of the production value and the experience that you get when you buy the game. I don't see that as a weakness at all."

    Me and my $600 USD disagree with you. Go sit and spin, Phil.

  • ocktober17 #192 5 years ago

    Is there No End to the Sony Bullshitters and their Lies after Lies after Lies.
    Next week they'll be telling the World the Cell Chip was developed for some crashed Alien Technology.

  • Steroyd #193 5 years ago

    WHAT!?!
    I don't believe some of these comments.

    All Phill Harrison is saying is that PS3 games are already filling 25GB of space and that they're moving to 50GB discs for PS3 next year, where's the Bullshit in that?

    He didn't even take a dig at Microsoft or anything.

    Unbelieveable it's one of the more fairer interviews from Sony with no dig at MS whatsoever just talking about the Playstation and what's happening and this type of article gets 200 comments!!

    WOW!!

    /gets his ore in and leaves.

  • JediMasterMalik #194 5 years ago

    @Steroyd, have you not learned yet. If it concerns Sony, they pay not attention to the news they just spew forth hate. Tis the way of teh internetz.

  • DanMW #195 5 years ago

    I don't see anyone downloading 50GB games anytime soon, who long would that take? for this to work it should take only a few hours maximum not days... Filling 25GB discs with what exactly?

  • JediMasterMalik #196 5 years ago

    The idea was never to download the full game, it was to download while you play, and with the speeds of broadband increasing so much, it's not completely ridiculous to think it could happen next generation.

  • Calgon #197 5 years ago

    Sony fanboys claiming this is nothing to do with MS?(course not, it couldnt ever be a "carefully calculated message as some editors at EG would say" to argue that they have something that will be sorely missed by not having a PS3 with its Blue-Ray magic). Its blatantly obvious that those comments are to convince potential PSZombies that Blue-Ray is needed and not just a nice extra if you want some hi-def movies or multiple languages in games.

    Of course they will make sure devs use more space(especially their own devs), they want people to think blue-ray is teh real next gen now.

    *Sony will never give up telling us about blue-ray untill it either succeeds or crashes and burns. We will hear many forced comments from devs about how they think its great(when they only think it means theres one less thing to bother thinking about... not quite lazy but doesnt translate to neccessary either)

    *DVD will be enough for the next generation at the very least for every area(bar movies, uneccessary audio ect) a Sony dev comes up with for the extra space there will be workarounds for 360 devs on DVD. Once Sony picks(and they will be lining this up already) their "this game couldnt be done without Blue-Ray" candidate they will make it sound like the best thing since sliced bread. Most likely a 360 dev will step up to prove them wrong by offering the same thing on DVD by just being a bit more clever about it. As texture data comes up alot for the space-issue arguement, there is procedural synthesis and before you talk about "it would increase processing requirements too" you should be aware of the differences between Real-time procedural textures and load-time texture generation(load time generation does not affect game performance ie require more processing per frame, a company called Allegorithmic claim 70% reduction in file size... 1GB would be 300mb with no loss in quality, its a different way of doing things but if the devs really need the space it would be worth learning).

    * If you beleive it will simply mean PS3 games can have much larger enviroments, remember 360 devs can decide where to use all 512mb(minus the OS 32mb, PS3 will have slightly less available ram with its 96mb OS) with no loss in efficiency. Longer games, more variation and the like? The reason for that was never down to space constraints. If thats what PS3 fanboys are giddy about you might aswell forget the PS3 and wait for the PS4(if its backwards compatible... might get rid of Blue-ray by then ;)) when they will be finnished(especially considering PS3 is the hardest to develop for, the devs must be thinking "great so it takes more effort, the tools arent as good and they want us to make the games longer with larger environments, with graphics that the machine is not really capable of*ie it was never going to have better graphics than 360*. Thanks alot Sony you really have put us all up fart creek without a paddle havent you? Please put a gag on those PR reps for the love of jebus";)
    Edited by 2 at 17/10/06 @ 22:58

  • SeesThroughAll #198 5 years ago

    *ie it was never going to have better graphics than 360* : The PS3 launch games look MUCH superior to 360 launch titles as it is...

    Calgon, could you actually try to make a point without destroying it by sounding like an arrogant XBox fanboy?
    Edited by 2 at 17/10/06 @ 23:06

  • dk_rare #199 5 years ago

    "if the devs really need the space"

    They don't need space, they need a platform.

  • BartonFink #200 5 years ago

    @STA - what ones?

    Maybe I need glasses

    As for the finger pointing at Calgon - people in glass houses and all that.

  • Calgon #201 5 years ago

    SeesThroughAll as they should, theyve been in developement FAR longer than ANY 360 launch titles, which were released a WHOLE YEAR AGO(some of them are probably sequels to games released last year when 360 was launched... how is that a fair comparison?).

    Alot of what sony hyped up was relying heavily on Cell(oh and those flops figures? please... NVidias flops should not be added to or concidered the same as those from a CPU, they are not comparable. That was just sneakey propaganda/hyberbole on Sonys part) I was never convinced, there are many devs who arent convinced(and there are/will be those who agree with "whatever sony said" of course... followed by money/contract now please), have you noticed a pattern with 3rd party devs? Are they all saying they were able to do more with PS3?... Ive certainly not read about anyone worth listnening to saying as such)
    Edited by 3 at 18/10/06 @ 02:13

  • Garulon #202 5 years ago

    It's good that Rob Fahey's finally come out the closet and moved into ThreeSpeak (like DoubleSpeak, but with 33% extra speak! Double Plus Good!) so he could give Phil his regular "tounge lashing"

    Rob for your next interview, practice the phrase "with what?" Like "We've filled 25GB of our disk already"

    "With What?"

    Say it with me brother!

    "With What?"

    "With WHAT?"

    "With What Phil, you bald fuck?"

  • miiiguel #203 5 years ago

    @ Les:
    it can be true, but it's a "funny" format isn't it?, it must be the shortest lived format in the history of Sony (and I speak against myself, because I took the bait, I am now the proud - NOT - owner of a PSP and a couple of movies and ports from PS2), when everyone thought no one could beat MinDisk.

  • SeesThroughAll #204 5 years ago

    Are they all saying they were able to do more with PS3?... Ive certainly not read about anyone worth listnening to saying as such

    Gabe Newell already complained about the Cell being too complicated to work with, but certainly didn't try to downplay it's capabilities like some equally sneaky Microsoft propaganda does in a daily basis. (example: direct comparison of the GPUs, nevermind if developers are actually using SPUs to push the graphics).

    The bottom line is, they are two very different machines altogether. Some developers have already stated that they both have advantages. BOTH.

    @STA - what ones?

    Maybe I need glasses

    Yes, you do :)
    Heavenly Sword alone looks better than most X360 games from last year. The best looking X360 game from then was PGR3, but there seems to be nothing to compare it to on the PS3 for a while (RR7 not out for a while, GTHD looks pants). MotorStorm looks almost on par, if you ask me. Oh, and Lair is simply amazing.
    Edited by 2 at 18/10/06 @ 10:36

  • miiiguel #205 5 years ago

    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidge Racer...
    LOL, I couldn't help meself...

    PGR3 the best looking game on the 360, man...!, almost every game looks amazing, have you seen the cloth movement on Table Tenis ?, have you seen those 800 zombies mownig at the same time ? or the helis exploding on Saint's Row, even the bashed Prey looks awsome. If there's a depatment whwre 360 users can't complain is the grpahics/art one. Every one who says that the old gen can do this is in denial, or never saw/played a 360 game.

    I didn't even mention Oblivion, don't need...
    Edited by 3 at 18/10/06 @ 11:34

  • BartonFink #206 5 years ago

    @STA - soz picked you up kinda wrong and yea agreed.

  • Calgon #207 5 years ago

    SeesThroughAll: Well the SPUs being used to push graphics is not unique, 360 developers could dedicate a few threads to pushing graphics too(360 devs have the option of cache locking along with that which is unique on Xenon, with a high bandwidth dedicated bus for streaming with xenos both ATI and IBM *probably MS's engineers too* collaborated together on the relationship between the CPU and GPU), its not like this will come free for PS3 devs (all I was saying that Cells flops rating is questionable on its own, it wouldnt be fair to compare it to a traditional modern CPU for instance and when you add in the NVidia flops which would be worse still, it makes it all so very misleading which leads to a minor annoyance every time a Sony fanboy drags it out as an arguement).

    Ah well you dont seem to be arguing that point too much, if you're simply looking forward to the PS3 for the games announced then fair enough(each to their own, I'm not trying to tell you what to buy, It's just better when everyone makes their choices for the right reasons. That way competition will always remain helathy).
    Edited by 5 at 18/10/06 @ 18:35

  • SeesThroughAll #208 5 years ago

    @ Calgon: It's always about the games, mate :)

  • captain-future #209 5 years ago

    I'll bet they release the first games on DVD (just as the first PS2 games came on CD).

  • Lex_Luthor #210 5 years ago

    I agree with Seesthroughall. Calgon is without doubt the most annoyingly arrogant blowhard fanboy I have ever seen on this site. How does someone take so many words to say so very little?

    Miiiguel is pretty boring too.

  • miiiguel #211 5 years ago

    Lex_Luthor: I can be more interresting, check this out:

    PS3 is the bestest console ever!!!!

    See...?!
    Edited by 2 at 19/10/06 @ 14:46

  • Calgon #212 5 years ago

    Lots of haters for Calgon from Sony fanboys then? Meh!

    To be fair SeesThroughAll is usually pretty reasonable(except he hate MS as much as I hate Sony) in most debates, I wouldnt consider him a typical Sony Fanboy for that reason. There are many though that do talk complete crap and become abusive when they cant come up with a decent arguement, so thats the reason for the tone of some of my posts.

    Whats wrong with voicing my opinions when I disagree on something?(Im not simply trolling every Sony article/thread...) I simply think that although Blue-Ray will have its good points, it is still not going to be a necessity for the games themselves(the extra spaced used will most likely be for bonuses and for the exceptions there are many workarounds for 360 devs).
    Edited by 2 at 20/10/06 @ 16:50