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Games already filling 25GB Blu-Ray discs - Harrison News

PlayStation 3 News by Eurogamer staff

17 October, 2006

Launch titles for the PlayStation 3 are already "getting up close" to the 25GB limit on current Blu-Ray discs, according to Sony's worldwide studios boss Phil Harrison, who was responding to criticism of the PS3's adoption of Blu-Ray.

"Already, at our launch titles, we're getting up close to the 25GB limit that we have on our Blu-Ray discs this year," he claimed. "Next year we'll raise that to 50GB, and I'd expect that we'll be getting close to that in the fairly near future as well."

Speaking in an interview with Eurogamer's Rob Fahey, Harrison decried suggestions that the Blu-Ray drive had been included in the machine purely to push Sony's agenda with regard to Blu-Ray movies.

"It's got nothing to do with movies," he responded. "DVD is not sufficient capacity to power the kind of data consumption, or to feed the data consumption needs of Cell and RSX - just purely as a gameplay device, we need Blu-Ray to supply the kind of data that PS3 games use."

Harrison also responded to questioning about the claim that the capacity of Blu-Ray will be used simply to provide more high definition movie sequences, effectively filling the discs - and games - with non-interactive content.

"It's not just about graphics," he said. "It's about 7.1 audio, it's about speech, it's about having up to 1080p movies built into the game; it's high-res textures, it's animation, it's everything that goes into making a very rich and varied next-gen experience. Partly it's visual, partly it's sound, and partially it'll be down to gameplay benefits as well - more levels, more detail, richer experiences."

However, he also defended the right of developers to include rendered video in their games - a key feature of many titles, even on next-generation systems.

"I see nothing wrong with having non-interactive, full HD sequences as part of the game," he said. "That's all part of the production value and the experience that you get when you buy the game. I don't see that as a weakness at all."

The Blu-Ray drive in the PS3 has been blamed both for contributing heavily to the cost of the system, and for causing the production delays which ultimately led to the decision to move the European launch back to 2007. Microsoft has accused Sony of taking choice away from consumers by including Blu-Ray - the Xbox 360 will have an optional external HD-DVD drive, although this can only be used for movie playback and will not be accessible to game developers.

Meanwhile, some consumers have questioned the value of Blu-Ray to videogames, given the ability of developers to fit games on the scale of Xbox 360 and PC title Oblivion onto a single DVD - although it should be noted that Oblivion, despite its scale, is a relatively early next-gen title. Many early titles in the previous generation shipped on CDs, but DVDs were widespread within a year to eighteen months, as developers learned to exploit more of the systems' functionality and streamlined the content creation process.

Harrison acknowledged that some early titles will not make full use of Blu-Ray's capacity, but was adamant that the standard will be vital to the PS3 in the coming years. "Not every game is going to fill 25 or 50GB," he said. "I completely accept that - but there will be games that require that this year, and will push that further in years to come."

Phil Harrison was speaking in an exclusive interview on the PlayStation 3, which is currently being serialised on the recently launched ThreeSpeech website, with additional excerpts set to appear on Eurogamer in the coming days.

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Comments: 1-50 of 218 in total | next 50 »

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djchump
17/10/06 @ 10:01
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Dragon's Lair and Night Trap ftw!
Blerk
17/10/06 @ 10:03
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Uh oh! Here we go!
king_skins
17/10/06 @ 10:05
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Programs and software are like a gas, they expand o fill the available space
joey
17/10/06 @ 10:06
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It's like building roads, you make them wider, they fill up.
tonynibbles
17/10/06 @ 10:06
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Heh.

One minute there is an article about how in the future, disc media wont exist. Next minute they're harking on about how much space they need on disc media. Sort it out.

7.1 for the win though. Lots of space is never a bad thing.
Darren
17/10/06 @ 10:08
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Hmmm, filling a 25GB Blu-ray disc is easy when you consider that all the games will probably have 1080p pre-rendered FMV footage somewhere in the games and also have ALL the multiple language and audio files required for the different countries instead of having a localised versions. Have a non-localised disc is hardly a benefit to the consumer and pre-rendered videos are hardly a great way to make use of powerful hardware. /rolls eyes

If PS3 games are geniunely using the disc space for actual gameplay then should be expect its game to pack in nearly three times more content or be three times longer than Xbox 360 equivalents? Somehow I doubt that very much... three times more content surely means three times longer development times and games that cost three times as much to make?
Steroyd
17/10/06 @ 10:08
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Uh oh Spaghettio's.
itamae
17/10/06 @ 10:11
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DVD is not sufficient capacity to power the kind of data consumption, or to feed the data consumption needs of Cell and RSX


So the Cell and the RSX are steam engines that stop working once they've "consumed" all data? What is he talking about here?
Steroyd
17/10/06 @ 10:11
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@Darren

Did PS2 games just fill up the extra space with FMV with the jump from CD's?

And how the hell can you critisice a game with multiple languages (well it looks like you're critisicing multiple languages on one disc), that means everyone around the world can get the game at the same time without waiting for localisation.

JESUS!!
boabg
17/10/06 @ 10:11
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Will Oblivion be 25Gb now? What about cross platform titles? Utter bollocks from Harrison is he's saying it's actual game filling the space.
Wrestlevania
17/10/06 @ 10:12
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king_skins: "Programs and software are like a gas, they expand o fill the available space"

Same as Sony executives then...

Remember kids; just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
Ceatlan
17/10/06 @ 10:14
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You can also expect development times to be 3 times as long if developers are going to have to produce 3 times as much content. So expect to see lots of delays for PS3 titles.
Darren
17/10/06 @ 10:14
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Re-reading the article again makes it sound like the extra space is used for 7.1 audio and pre-rendered 1080p movies, things that add to the experience but are by no means essential seeing as most people won't be able to see or hear them at that quality anyway for a good few years. It's nice that Sony are thinking ahead but the way I see it, by the time both standards are commonplace, there'll probably be new machines from Microsoft and Sony coming out anyway.
JHuxley
17/10/06 @ 10:14
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There are benefits to having more storage on a disc, that much is obvious. But none of them have anything to do with improving gameplay.
playgen
17/10/06 @ 10:15
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This is a joke
Only the other day they claimed with PS4 there will be no disks. But if PS3 games are going to be 50gig you can imagine how stupidly oversized PS4 games could be!

Im looking forward to future press releases -

"With PS4 its download only, it only takes a week to download a game, and you can store two whole games on the hard drive, its so much more convenient!"
Zomoniac
17/10/06 @ 10:15
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So a PS2 was, what, 4GB? And a PS3 game is 25GB. So let's call that a 6-fold increase, just to make the numbers easier, so a PS4 game is, if the scales work similarly, around 150GB. And they want digital distribution with no media. And I will want access to at least 50 games, as will a lot of people (and that's a very conservative number, since without media you can't trade in so all bought games are forever, probably more like 200!). So it's going to need a hard-drive of at least 8TB in it, and that's just for 50 games. Over the lifetime of PS2 I bought (and then resold, which can't be done) about 180 games, so that would be about 20TB minimum. Something tells me that ain't happening.
hjarg666
17/10/06 @ 10:16
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Well, i see no reason why he would be wrong.

After all, there was a time when you could fit a nice game to 5,25" and people couldn't figure out what do to with the huge storage space CD offered...
Steroyd
17/10/06 @ 10:18
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So a PS2 was, what, 4GB? And a PS3 game is 25GB.

And a PS1 was, what, 700MB?
mkreku
17/10/06 @ 10:18
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Saying that nothing beyond DVD's is needed is extremely short-sighted thinking. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are here for a reason, even if that reason isn't obvious to everyone right now. Textures are getting bigger, streaming levels can provide tons of content, cutscene movies in 1080p will naturally take their piece of the pie, sound is getting better, and so on. Right now, the advantages of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are only for the select few, but in a couple of years most everyone will own a flatscreen HD-TV. That's when the next-gen begins for me, personally.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 17/10/06 @ 11:19
Biggles
17/10/06 @ 10:19
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"that means everyone around the world can get the game at the same time without waiting for localisation."

Surely it's the actual translating that takes all the time, not the burning of seperate disks. And so this means that while it might be possible for all territories to get a game simultaneously, wouldn't they have to wait for the last random language version to be completed before they can even start burning any disks at all?
TakeTheVeil
17/10/06 @ 10:19
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with extra disc capacity comes lazy developers.. my example would be that ICO was one of the most beautiful PS2 games (and it werent short either) was on a CD (the euro pal version may have been on dvd because of language packs) but still a very compact beautiful game.. thou i guess its to be expected..
chupachups
17/10/06 @ 10:20
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There was a guy called Northcote Parkinson who came up with the theory that work expands to fill time, and bureaucracy expands to fill the resources allocated to it.

If you give a game developer 25 gb and they fill it, that doesn't actually mean they need that much, it just means they were given that much and see no need to optimise anything. The same developer could probably produce the same game on a standard DVD if they had to though.

I bet the vast majority of these blu-ray discs filled by games are actually filled by high definition video, the actual game just being a few gigabytes. The worst case scenario for Microsoft is that 360 games have lower definition or shorter video scenes, but the gameplay graphics would look the same and the game would play identically.
Edited 3 times, most recently on 17/10/06 @ 11:25
UncleLou
17/10/06 @ 10:21
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And how the hell can you critisice a game with multiple languages (well it looks like you're critisicing multiple languages on one disc), that means everyone around the world can get the game at the same time without waiting for localisation.

Um, the games won't localise themselves just because disc space is bigger. ;p

Still, only time will tell if he's right. The proof will be the games, and it's not like 360 games developers haven't complained about the lack of disc space yet. Installed games on the PC already need up to 10-15 GB.

And Oblivion is still a bad example - it's a copypaste game. Mind, Morrowind was on a single CD (PC version). That doesn't mean DVDs were unnecessary.
Darren
17/10/06 @ 10:22
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@Steroyd - Calm down, dear! I wasn't criticising multiple languages on the same disc in the way you mean at all if you re-read what I wrote, just stating that that it will be one of the things that will no doubt account for games using upto 25GB of space! It's not a direct benefit to us English speaking users in terms of enhancing the gameplay experience, which was the point I was making. Of course, you might think having the option to play your games in Hindi and Chinese makes your games more enjoyable to play but I don't! LOL

JESUS! /wink
space ace
17/10/06 @ 10:23
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sony talk again :)

release lawrence of arabia in 1080p and all is forgiven :)
insane_cobra
17/10/06 @ 10:23
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So how many people are gullible enough to actually believe him?
Steroyd
17/10/06 @ 10:24
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@Biggles

I'll be selfish bastard on this one but what it means to me is that Japan will get screwed, America waits a little longer and i get the damn game at the same time as everyone else. ^_^
mingster
17/10/06 @ 10:26
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Its the 7.1 sound, the 1080p fmv, and multiple languages taking the room.
These are extras.

NOT the actual game code.
Pure game code would easily fit on a single layer DVD (4.5gb) i wager.

Steroyd
17/10/06 @ 10:27
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@Darren

Oh... that's what you meant fair enough i just interpreted it wrong, i thought you was finding something to moan about.

Aaaanyway Lair dev said one level takes up 4Gb and Insomiac said they have 40 large loaded areas at 300MB each (equates to 12Gb of level data alone) so no PS3 games won't find DVD's sufficient.
UncleLou
17/10/06 @ 10:27
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So how many people are gullible enough to actually believe him?


Believe what, exactly? That games will use the disc space? Or that it's necessary? Or at least helpful?

And whos's fanboy enough to flat out deny that he might have a point?
chupachups
17/10/06 @ 10:28
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Incidentally, notice any contradiction in what he said?

"It's not just about graphics," he said. "It's about 7.1 audio, it's about speech, it's about having up to 1080p movies built into the game; it's high-res textures, it's animation"

So movies, textures and animation aren't graphics?

I don't really see why you'd need more than a fraction of a gigabyte for speech or sound, unless a game contains hundreds of hours of speech and soundtrack (pretty unlikely).
17/10/06 @ 10:28
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Massive duplication to reduce seek times from the drive.

Every localisation on each disc even though they are then region-locked by the distributer.

Lots of FMV "built into the game" - nowt wrong with that right?

Lots of "DVD Extras" -style additions, like other game demos.

Yes, it all adds up doesn't it.

*Cough* 512MB total RAM. Hi res textures are not all that practical.

And how many people have 1080p and 7.1 sound? Catering to the benefit of the masses - not.

If we've learnt anything, it's that games optimised for HD, even at 720p, have some difficulty when run on SD (text size, lighting etc).
Steve007
17/10/06 @ 10:28
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lol @ Harrison.

What a wanker!
Schiraman
17/10/06 @ 10:29
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Well it makes sense to me, increased storage space has been one of the major elements of every previous generational leap - TBH I don't understand why Microsoft thinks that it isn't needed this time - especially with all this talk of HD content.

Sony have said some pretty stupid things over the last year or two, but this isn't one of them. Time to step away from the sony-hating and accept that they probably have a point here.
boabg
17/10/06 @ 10:29
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And whos's fanboy enough to flat out deny that he might have a point?

He's got a point but for all the wrong reasons.
Shinji [mod]
17/10/06 @ 10:30
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In fairness, game CODE normally fits in a few megabytes. It's content, not code, that takes up space.

And yeah, 7.1 sound and 1080p movies are extras. If you want to look at it that way, high-detail models and environments, more intricate animations, and - crucially - much higher detail textures are also just extras. But that doesn't mean people don't want them, or that they don't improve the experience.

I'm not sold on a lot of things about the various next-gen consoles, but I'm constantly surprised by how absolutely ferocious people are about savaging Blu-Ray. I remember seeing exactly the same thing when DVDs replaced CDs in the PS2. You know what happened because of that? GTA3. Go figure.
SpeedyThing
17/10/06 @ 10:33
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"Aaaanyway Lair dev said one level takes up 4Gb and Insomiac said they have 40 large loaded areas at 300MB each (equates to 12Gb of level data alone) so no PS3 games won't find DVD's sufficient."

Seems like some developers need to work on their compression. If Valve can fit Half Life 2 onto a single DVD then Lair need to work out what they're doing wrong

Inflatable
17/10/06 @ 10:35
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Never heard so much marketing BS in my life.. Sad thing is plenty of people will believe utter crap like this, this is how you breed misinformation and fanboys.. Marketing BS like this always makes me hope the product marketed fails misserably (unfortunatly the PS3 won't no matter what BS Sony pulls)..

If upcoming Xbox 360 and especially PC games still fit on 1 (or 2 at most) DVD's there's no reason at all why this shouldn't be the case with PS3 games.. Cell and RSX requires it? Don't make me laugh.. They're nothing more then a ordinary CPU & GPU, nothing really special that makes games 25-50GB all of a sudden..

Mr Harrison can keep his crap product called the PS3, because by the time they start selling it here in Europe it will be obsolete already compared to my PC.. DX10 anyone? Just to name one example to why the PS3 will be obsolete already at launch.. At least MS got the Xbox 360 out the door in time, so at least that got more the a year on relative equal terms with the best the PC has to offer.. No such thing for the PS3, mr. Harrison with or without the fancy Blu-ray.. Which in contrary to what mr. Harrison says is only usefull for HD movies for the coming years..

It's time the PS3 gets launched so the thing and it's games etc have to speak for themselfs, instead of the Sony BS marketing machine making it looks like the next world's best supercomputer.. What's next? PS4 with 1TB games and virutal reality engine 1.0?
Darren
17/10/06 @ 10:35
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The person that mentioned PC games only coming on one or two DVDs (has any PC game ever come on TWO DVDs?!?) makes a good point. The PC is a more cutting edge machine than a console as it's a constantly evolving platform but very few PC games actually use more than 4 GBs of hard drive space when installed let alone 9. There are exceptions though but it'll be years and years before PC games come on HD-DVD or Blu-ray; look at how long it took for PC games to come on DVD as standard.

Of course, Phil Harrison singing the praises of Blu-ray for games helps give the illusion of the PS3 being a state-of-the-art gaming platform way ahead of anything that the PC is capable of which in turn helps create hype for the machine and ultimately sell it to those gullible enough to believe it. However, I'm hearing that PS3 games aren't really that different from those we're playing now on the Xbox 360 and we all know that that machine hasn't really delivered the next-gen leap that Microsoft promised, just prettier hi-def graphics. I really don't see how 7.1 audio and 1080p FMV will make PS3 games more "next-gen" in terms of actual gameplay than that of the PC or Xbox 360.

I want a PS3 for its exclusive games but I'm no fool; I know that the games won't be that different from those I play on the PC or Xbox 360 even if they fill a 50GB dual-layer Blu-ray disc.
mingster
17/10/06 @ 10:35
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Steroid if you believe that one level of a game takes up 4gb of data on a disc then your are severely misguided or uninformed.

This one level is probably unoptimised, uncrunched, and also includes all the fmv, sound, speech etc.. No level of any game takes up that much room and if it does then it is pre-release and by the time its gone through optimization would likely be a 10th of the size.

Do you know how many lines of machine code 4gb is? The Sony assembler/DevKit must be very poor to churn out stuff this huge.
trevd72
17/10/06 @ 10:36
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how much space does gameplay take???

have the ingame engines not got to the point where they can be used instead of cut scenes. there are plenty of games that do it from ages ago. It helps to keep things tight and less fractured just two things to mull over.
Yossarian
17/10/06 @ 10:37
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"*Cough* 512MB total RAM. Hi res textures are not all that practical."

especially when the PS3 apparently has problems with memory bandwidth! man I can't wait to see the load times when they push their 25Gb of HI-RES TEXTURES through that bottleneck
Steroyd
17/10/06 @ 10:37
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@Mingster

You're talking about Factor 5 here man!!
pjmaybe
17/10/06 @ 10:39
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25gb chock full of ads and "locked" unlockable pay per view content. Yum!

Peej
Edited 1 times, most recently on 17/10/06 @ 11:40
Wrobel
17/10/06 @ 10:40
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Seems like some developers need to work on their compression. If Valve can fit Half Life 2 onto a single DVD then Lair need to work out what they're doing wrong

Why would they bother when there is enough space available on BluRay
mingster
17/10/06 @ 10:41
#46
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Well if its the Lair game factor 5 are developing then the dragons and detail does look extremely high indeed and i admit would take a lot of room.

But i still guarantee it the high res textures that are taking up the space not game code.
-TKF-
17/10/06 @ 10:41
#47
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32 MB ram in the PS2
64 MB ram in the Xbox plus built in Harddrive
512 MB ram in the 360

And with DVD as storage media with up 9GB storage

512 MB ram in the PS3 plus built in Harddrive

And with Blu-Ray as storage with up to 50GB of storage.

And noone thinks that the 360 may be limited by the old school choice of media?
Rambaldi
17/10/06 @ 10:42
#48
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So, those of us who have 7.1 systems, 1080p tvs and can speak multiple languages will really feel the benefit of inflated hardware prices and next-gen storage.

Yay.
Steroyd
17/10/06 @ 10:44
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But i still guarantee it the high res textures that are taking up the space not game code.

Doesn't that mean that MS have a probloem with their High Def games then?

A bit of consistancy would be nice.
Steve007
17/10/06 @ 10:44
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"And noone thinks that the 360 may be limited by the old school choice of media?"

No.

What's the worst that can happen in the future, that games come on more than one DVD?

Harrison is just doing his weekly sales pitch for Blu-ray in a more laughable manner than normal.

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