UK tabloid attacks Nintendo over epilepsy

By Rob Fahey Published 14 June, 2004

The Sun talks to "top brain expert".

The Sun, the biggest-selling daily tabloid newspaper in Britain, has published a report quoting a "top brain expert" who calls for Nintendo games including Mario Kart: Double Dash to be banned on the grounds of causing epileptic fits.

Speaking to the tabloid, Aston University's head of clinical neuro-psychology, Professor Graham Harding, said that "we need guidelines like those in broadcasting to make sure games with flashing light patterns that have the potential to cause an attack are eliminated."

The Sun reports that the professor wants to see the games - with Mario Kart: Double Dash highlighted as the key culprit - banned, although comments made elsewhere by Harding call for warnings on the packaging of the games, and new safety guidelines for the games industry.

The other games which include the specific light patterns that can trigger epileptic fits are Nintendo's Metroid Prime and Super Mario Sunshine and Capcom's Megaman X; according to Harding, these titles have the potential to trigger epileptic fits in one in 4000 people.

This isn't the first time that Nintendo has come under fire for having light sequences in its games which can induce epileptic fits; the firm has previously defended court actions on the topic, and has been accused of knowingly shipping products which contained the offending light sequences.

Most games sold around the world today, including Nintendo products, carry guidelines for use which include explicit instructions for sufferers of epilepsy; however, Harding is calling for more clear guidance to be included on the packaging for the game, not just in the manual.

In a statement made to The Sun for today's article, a Nintendo spokesperson said that "video games do not cause epilepsy," going on to explain that "a small percentage of the population has a pre-existing neurological tendancy to have seizures triggered by flashing lights or patterns."

Picture of Rob.

About Rob Fahey

Rob Fahey is a former editor of GamesIndustry.biz who spent several years living in Japan and probably still has a mint condition Dreamcast Samba de Amigo set.

Read more articles from Rob by visiting the Rob Fahey archive page.

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Comments (65) Latest comment 8 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • ssuellid #1 8 years ago

    "Top Sun reporter finds press release for months old BBC3 programme and writes an entire article based on it" - not quite as catchy.

  • timo180 #2 8 years ago

    This AGAIN...

  • Kami #3 8 years ago

    While I understand, you have to be the most stupid person in the world to attack Nintendo - pretty much all games can cause someone with epilepsy to have a fit. It's like branding Nintendo the intital cause of the problem, which is awfully unfair. Like ssuelid said, we know all this and most of us have known it for years. Old, old, OLD news.


    Then again, we're talking about The Sun... for crying out loud guys, stop reading The Sun and get something like, say, Reader Reviews sorted perhaps?
    Edited by 1 at 14/06/04 @ 18:08

  • Popsimax #4 8 years ago

    Funny you should mention that.

    http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004- 06-09-war-video-games-inside_x.htm
    Edited by 1 at 14/06/04 @ 18:11

  • Kami #5 8 years ago

    I know... and guess what? They attack Double Dash of all games... a decent karting romp...


    But I'm worried if the guys are reading The Sun... oh wait, yeah, I forgot, Page 3... not many people I know get any further...
    Edited by 1 at 14/06/04 @ 18:13

  • Spanky #6 8 years ago

    Shouldn't they just make an badge to display on the package that admonishes them of all blame for these 4000 defective monkeys.

    "This Game is not Mong-Compliant™"

    It'd probably be easier for nintendo to get a hitman to kill them all, and with there reputation they probably will.

  • Wobbler #7 8 years ago

    Popsimax: That link isn't too 'Daily Mail', at least. Only Mary Spio made very sprious comments; Abu Ghraib torture is due to computer games!? Everyone else seemed pretty OK.

    Although I am a little worried for the English language when 'Columbine' becomes a verb. "To Columbine. I Columbine, You Columbine, They Columbine, He/She Columbines, They are Columbining" :/

  • tannerd #8 8 years ago

    Funny isn't it - the Sun actually has an advert on it's site featuring Mario Kart:DD - see here second advert down on right hand side.

  • CyberClaw #9 8 years ago

    Kami, they aren't attacking Nintendo as an example. Nintendo games do use flashing colors that others don't. Of the top of my head, I remmember a pokemon anime, where Pikachu's cheeks flashed vivd yellow/red at a certain rate, that trigged a big ammount of seizures. That Pokemon episode was edited to be aired in the US/Euro.

    Anywho, it's the colors we see too comonly in Nintendo games (bright/flashy yellows and reds) that we seldom see in other (tagged "more mature";) games (let alone in rapid flashing sucession), that are problematic. I mean, Kami, let0s think for a while here. Wouldn't it be easier for them to go after the BIG target, and by big target I mean GTA3? It would, but the truth, is that the above mentioned games, use brighter colors than GTA, which can cause a seizure.

    They aren't attacking the game. The game is simply another game - be it good or bad - they are attacking the color choice and color flashing paterns.

    I'm a big paladin of epiletic seizures, because I have 3 members of my family who suffered from epilepsy, one of them, who plays games. She never had an attack playing games (although she has a PSX, not a Nintendo console), but she did had two attacks in front of me (one by a cheap cartoon passing on tv, and another inside a car). Until you see someone you remotly care for having a seizure, it's easy to not care, or even joke with the matter. But it's a very serious issue. Google for the "epiletic pokemon episode", and you'll find that many japanese kids, who NEVER had had seizures before, were taken to the hospital thanks to the choice of colors.

    Strong enough color paterns, might start a seizure on a kid who didn't have any before. It's dangerous business, and Nintendo should edit their games, specially since their games are comonly bright colored, with flashy color changes.

  • Mortus #10 8 years ago

    It's The Sun. It's all you need to know.

    Ditto the Daily Star, same for the Daily Mirror. It's all shit, it's all barely spelt correctly and about as factually accurate as Comical Ali's press releases.

  • Daryoon #11 8 years ago

    That Pokemon episode was edited to be aired in the US/Euro.

    Actually it's banned, in Japan too. The only other episodes to be banned were one featuring guns (oh SHIT!), Jynx - the "racist" pokemon, and...eh....a bloke in a swimsuit with inflatible breasts...(those three aren't banned in Japan btw, just the seizure episode)
    Edited by 1 at 14/06/04 @ 20:50

  • Kami #12 8 years ago

    Gunfire flashes, "neon signs", and dance games with all their cheerful colour flashing...

    Any of this familiar?

    Many games use dramatic light effects which flash vividly. It's not an uncommon practice, and it's not entirely Nintendo's fault.

    The warnings for epileptics are there though, usually in the first page or so of the manual. If an epileptic is stupid enough to not read the warnings, then IMO, it's their fault because they ignored the information that games have carried for years.


    If you're an epileptic, you already KNOW a large portion of games can pose a risk. Doctors will tell you that. They also warn you that the same goes with TV shows, Films and Cartoons. In fact, anything which uses flashing lights.


    With correct medical advice and a sensible head on your shoulders, you can keep an eye out for games which could pose a risk, and even enjoy the odd game or two.



    And I object to being "nannied" because a few doctors and epileptics are to pig-stubborn to open up a god-damned manual! And this covers all games, on all systems. If they can't be arsed to open the manual or remember that they have to at least check first, then that's their bad.
    Edited by 1 at 14/06/04 @ 21:01

  • Daryoon #13 8 years ago

    Isn't the Sun the biggest selling English-language paper, period?
    Edited by 1 at 14/06/04 @ 21:09

  • Kami #14 8 years ago

    reading The Sun makes you a literal (insert expletive here) w****r.

  • CyberClaw #15 8 years ago

    Kami, let's do a game. Let's pretend.
    Let's pretend a 5 year old, decides to buy a videogame console. Now, let's pretend, he is unaware of his epiletic condition, thanks to his young age.
    Now let's play another game. It's called guess.
    Guess what console the 5 year old proly got from his parents, and what games.

    I'l give you a hint, it wasn't an action rythm game (very hip amongst 15 YO and older audience, but not what a youngster is looking for). I'll give you another hint, it proly wasn't GTA3 either (although they do seem to like it, I'm playing the game of the resposible parent, ence it won't buyu 18+ games to their 5 year old).

    I'll tell you also his console is purple, has an handle, and the game he is playing is "Super Pikachu Brothers 3: The Lightning Island World Advance".

    20 year old are usually already aware of their epiletic condition. 5 years old, aren't. This'll mean many 5 year old kids will be playing games for their age (Super Marios and Pokemons). I mean the console and games are designed with kids in mind. The content of the game, the shape of the disk, the size and shape of the console - why not take a little more care to ensure shit doesn't happen.

    Here:
    http ://www.wordtally.com/pokemon-ruby-cheats.htm

    Scroll down to "controversy".

    Some stuff is more likely to trigger ceisures than other. It's not just the flashing colors, but certain tones of certain colors, flashing at a certain rithm. That's why many kids who had not had any problems before, had ceisures with the pokemon episode. Now, I'm not saying seeing big brother won't trigger ceisures too, but so far, there wasn't a wave of people going to the hospital after epiletic seisures after seeing 15 mins of big brother was there?

    I'm suposing the brain expert isn't just aiming at the air when he mentioned specific titles. He did play them, or observe them, otherwise he wouldn't have hit on color intensive games. He didn't even aim at any easy targets like I said, like GTA3, or ManHunt, or Postal, all of which are used to getting media flak. It shows he isn't just aiming for some media exposure. He mentioned games who never made it into the controvertial headlines, and mentioned specific numbers (1/4000 probability of occurence in those specific games). I mean, it's a prety big number. 1 out of every 4000 clients of Nintendo might suffer seizures. Shouldn't Nintendo take special precautions specially since they aim their product to a younger audience, and that already reflects the care on the design/display/marketting of the product. Why doesn't this reflect on the extra care?

  • CyberClaw #16 8 years ago

    Teq, some full screen explosions and color changes in Metroid Prime are pretty agressive.

  • CyberClaw #17 8 years ago

    Kami, you are already nannied when buying a game for 5 year old kids. Characters won't die, they'll disapear in a puff of smoke, there won't be any guns nor specific violence, etc. This is made, not because the developers want to, but because the game is for a young audience. We accept and even enjoy these nuances, but that doesn't mean the game isn't for 5 year old kids. Now, if the game is for 5 years old, then it should have extra cares.

    Much like a transformers toy and a Mc Farlane action figure. McFarlane has more violence in it, and simply the age tag, while a transformer will have no violence (no human skulls for e.g.), and much lower age tag, and no small pieces that kids can swallow.
    Both are action figures though.

  • Kami #18 8 years ago

    First up, if you're five and have epilepsy, then the parents have the responsibility full stop, so that is your first argument shot out of the sky.

    Secondly, you're right but heres another point - aiming it at Nintendo isn't going to solve the problem, nor is banning games that might case seizures in a small minority of people (And let us be honest - it IS a small minority).


    I'm just sick to the f***ing back teeth of "Warnings! Warnings!" - I have to read it on food, I have to sign forms before I go-kart or go on the snowboard slope now, it's all over the place and I, for one, am sick and tired of being told HOW BAD THINGS ARE FOR ME!


    Like I said, if you're an epileptic, and you play a game, you know of the risks. If it'sa child, the parents know of the risks. Nothing is safe.And clearly, nothing is sacred any more...


    I know, lets ban ALL games and have done with it to please people like this, eh?

    Extreme? If these people get their way, that is the direction it'll head. It has risks - for gods sake, what DOESN'T in this day and age? You can die eating fish by choking on a fishbone. You can step out onto the street and not see a car or vice versa. You can fall down the stairs and break your neck.


    Yes, it has risks. Yes, it is worth pointing out that some games may be more likely to induce fits than others. I can understand that, and it's good for people- especially parents - to be more careful about what they buy because, let us be honest, they have to be. My gran was epileptic, bless her soul - and yes, she had siezures and that is why I have an office/games room. She had enough to deal with.

    But please, spare me the "Ban" talk. Any more of this nanny state and we'll all be walking around in plastic bubbles so NO-ONE can get hurt doing anything ever...


    I'm not so much angry over being told games can trigger epilepsy, or being told which games may be more likely to trigger it. I take offense to all this crap that involves banning anything that "could" be bad for you.


    I'm just sick of it.
    Edited by 1 at 14/06/04 @ 21:39

  • Daryoon #19 8 years ago

    I'm playing the game of the resposible parent, ence it won't buyu 18+ games to their 5 year old

    That's a bit hypothetical, isn't it?

    And really, any parent who buys their 5-year-old a Pokemon RPG is being a bit silly. It would be like trying to teach them chess, or buying them YuGiOh cards....



    Oh wait...

  • Kami #20 8 years ago

    Lol, good point Daryoon.

    Calming... calmed...


    I just dislike the fact that soon, everything will have Health Warning labels, from chocolate to paracetamol, from bottled water to vitamins.And everything that they thinkmay be more harmful, they'll ban.


    I'm just sick of hearing all this BS... god, is ANYTHING safe?

    I can see it now.

    "Death may be harmful to your health"
    Edited by 1 at 14/06/04 @ 21:49

  • CyberClaw #21 8 years ago

    Epilepsy manifests itself considerably late. I have 2 epiletic cousins. One had the first seizure at 5, other at 6.
    So parents might not know their kids are epiletic.

    My epiletic aunt, had her first epilepsy seizure when she was 16 years old. You can start having such seizures at any age quite in fact, although it usually manifests itself when you are 5-10 years old.

    They are a minority, but they shouldn't be discarded, just because you are fine. Let's stop building ramps in the crossways in the streets, just because weelchair users are a minority. Or lets not have beeping sounds in the crossway lights, just because it tires your delicate ears, and because blind people are just a minority. Fuck everyone else, I'm fine, that's what matters.

    Let me tell you something, you are a minority in one aspect or another. You might not have epilepsy, you might not be blind, but there are things in your life, in which you are a minority, and you DEMAND equal respect and attention. A few years ago, if you were a gamer, we were a minority. But we demanded equal respect. This is a hobby as diserving of our time as a movie.

    Anyway, being a minority isn't an excuse to stop caring about it. Bigger warnings might scare costumers, but if Nintendo had a small playtesting section dedicated to epilepsy for it's games, maybe it could tone down offending color flashes.

  • Daryoon #22 8 years ago

    Hey, I'm sick of it too, and sick of the aforementioned "parents buying their kids things that are way over their heads" (which I currently have to live with).

    And, of course, it isn't going to get any better, because the general populance (Sun readers...) are so damned lazy they need other people to tell them what to do and what to believe and what to buy.

  • Kami #23 8 years ago

    I know it isn't. But the warnings are there for people to read, and if you suffer from epilepsy, then to be honest - you are told what may cause such attacks.


    I do care. I don't mind perhaps a list for sufferers detailing games which may pose a higher chance of inducing fits than others. But it's the manner of which this so called "doctor" seems to want to ban some games, and slap big cigarette-style health warnings on the rest.


    I do care. But I also think we, as PEOPLE, do not need to be nannied or smothered by a bunch of doctors who want to make sure that we do nothing but keep them in flash cars and designer suits.


    Life is about risks. Yes, we should know. But I don't think banning anything, nor putting warnings on the front of games is really going to help the problem...


    How's about I show this "doctor" the damage games can do?

    *grabs controllers*

    The PS2 might fit with enough force... but the X-Box controller is going to be considerably more challenging...
    Edited by 1 at 14/06/04 @ 21:56

  • CyberClaw #24 8 years ago

    Daryoon, each kid is different. Most 13 years old won't have problems playing GTA3. But each kid is different, and they have to aim to the upper common denominary - keep in mind, that many parents, choose to "shield" their kids from such things as sex and violence until a late age. It's their decision. It's their kids, at their responsability, and they are the ones educating them - they should have a certain ammount of freedom to the ammount of values they wish to transmit - even if you consider such choices silly - it's just different ways. It might be silly for them, to tell your children to eat meat. It's up to the parents to decide what to teach their childs.

    When they are consumers (they buy the games to their kids), an accurate ratting is necessary. Not just a age tag mind you. Animated violence is something some people might find apropriate for 15 years old, while sexual themes might only be suitable for them when they are 18 year old. I'm even all for removing the age tag, and only having hazzard tags. Sexual themes, visual violence, cusing, tobacco/drugs use, etc. Bright colors that are more prone to producing epiletic seizures? Sure, why not. It should be tagged up there with guns and swearing. Give me a reason why not?

    Don't you think a game, like lets say, Mario Kart DD, is more prone to cause an epiletic seizure than GTA3? So why not tag it in the box? Much like it is tagged sexual themes, and visual violence in GTA3.

  • Daryoon #25 8 years ago

    Since when did the public take notice of the stuff slapped on the game boxes anyway? Look at all the parents who have brought their kids GTA3

  • CyberClaw #26 8 years ago

    Daryoon, if they want to let their kids play such games, it's their choice, as parents. But they should be warned as consumers what games are more risky to causing epilepsy. I for one, wouldn't play those with my counsin for example.

    I am a consumer, I have the right to know exactly what I'm consuming. And while other products like food/beverages (which contain the ammount of each quimic product in the label), and movies (which contain length of movie, features, age tag, content descriptors, etc), games are still very reduced in their tagging. We have age tags, and content descriptors, but they treat the game as a movie, while a game should have more stuff. Not to mention that thanks to the more modular and interactive nature of games, the descriptions don't fit as well. One can easly access debug tools and hidden scenes in games...

  • Kami #27 8 years ago

    I know... a small warning like that on the back is a good compromise, because those who need to be reminded will be. But it'll make no difference.


    As for being nannied in games... possibly, but it varies wildly according to game type and the company at the helm, not to mention the style of game.



    I just guess I'm tired that doctors seem to want to put health warnings on everything. A limit would be nice, and doctors perhaps realising that most grown adults are able to make a sensible decision would be another...

  • Daryoon #28 8 years ago

    But the point is that they don't -know- what's in the game. They buy GTA3 for their kid because he asked for it and it's a video game, hence it must be for kids (I've heard about young teens who have asked for a new console, only to be denied because they're "too old" for games).

    They don't give a fuck about the content - it's a game, and thus it's a nice little babysitter that'll keep little Timmy in his room.

  • CyberClaw #29 8 years ago

    Daryoon, saying most parents are like that is sad. And actually I don't care. I supose you won't be like that, nor shall I when we have kids, if ever. The point is, that because people don't care for the warnings, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be there.
    Videogames as a mainstream medium is something relatibly new. Most parents havent' addapted yet to it. The future will be different though. And infastructures should be in place already, not to mention they NEED to be, for those who DO care.

  • terminalterror #30 8 years ago

    "I'm suposing the brain expert isn't just aiming at the air when he mentioned specific titles. He did play them, or observe them, otherwise he wouldn't have hit on color intensive games. He didn't even aim at any easy targets like I said, like GTA3, or ManHunt, or Postal, all of which are used to getting media flak. It shows he isn't just aiming for some media exposure. He mentioned games who never made it into the controvertial headlines, and mentioned specific numbers (1/4000 probability of occurence in those specific games). I mean, it's a prety big number. 1 out of every 4000 clients of Nintendo might suffer seizures. Shouldn't Nintendo take special precautions specially since they aim their product to a younger audience, and that already reflects the care on the design/display/marketting of the product. Why doesn't this reflect on the extra care?"

    The reason he picked out Nintendo games is that he was asked to study the risks of seizures for a BBC program on Nintendo's fortunes, and they picked up on the lawsuit against Nintendo relating to seizures, so he tested some of their games of the time, and some of their recent games, of which those mentioned had seizure risks.



    If the process of warning people of every risk they might encounter, with numerous dislaimers, warning labels and notices for everything you do continues, people will just ignore them. The government have admitted they will always have to up the warning on cigarettes, now with text warning, then they'll have to have disgusting pictures, getting ever more extreme as people just get used to them and ignore them. If this happens, it will be a bad thing as some warnings are necessary, and will be ignored.

  • Bru-Man #31 8 years ago

    On Midlands Today last week a Neuroscientist had apparently worked out the various ranges of frequencies of strobing lights/colours that were most likely to trigger a seizure. Not only had he done this but he had also written a computer program that could 'read' frequencies of broadcasts (I'm assuming from a camera or direct feed) and flash up a warning if it detected such an effect.
    Surely it's not a great leap to imagine games having to pass a 'health-test' by Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo? i.e. they go through their normal game approval process, but the game is constantly monitored for any sequences that could induce a seizure?
    A little bit of education for artists and programmers on the specific frequencies and colours they should avoid when creating special effects wouldn't go amiss either. In fact it would be mandatory if these were tested for as above.
    Just a thought.

  • CyberClaw #32 8 years ago

    Actually, the warnings in cigs is different. Because cigarrets are bad for your health, and people start taking them because they are stupid and find it cool because their friends says so, and then become adicted.

    Now, media, doesn't need to shock people trying to scare NEW consumers. It simply should educatly tell what the game is consisted of. It's not a warning trying to shy away potential new asses who wish to kill themselves and those arround them smoking tubes - it's a content box, which would say "violence" "sex" "flash colors" or whatever.

    It isn't a thing that's trying to control people's minds (which is what the government tries to do with the Cig warnings - to make people think it's bad). It's something to inform people of the content. The same way you might read an iogurt searching for calcium in its constitution. Those who just want a yogurt will buy any. Those who want calcium, or can't cosume Badlibu Quimical Essence C+, will search for it in the table of constents.

    Don't compare both. It's different, IMO.

  • CyberClaw #33 8 years ago

    Bru-Man exactly. It's not about warnings. The best choice would be to avoid the problematic lights, and have some sort of testing department which looked for it (possibly trained doctors with the help of a program like you said)

  • 3william56 #34 8 years ago

    I have sympathy for Cyberclaw's points, but I don't think warnings are a worthwhile solution. It's chicken and egg - people who haven't had an episode aren't going to heed any warning. It's worth restatingring that no game *causes* epilepsy in unsusceptible persons. Games (or Pokemon cartoons, or any other light source at the right frequency) only *trigger* a siezure in an *already* susceptible person.

    The issue with Ninty is that they are unusually closely associated with a visual style (like certain Jap cartoons) which is itself unsusually prone to triggering episodes in *already susceptible* people. These people are virtually certain to sieze at some time, it's just a question of when they hit the trigger.

    Educate me here, CC: is there actually a harmful effect from a seizure itself (apart from general distress, or belting the surroundings)? Because if not, maybe it's better that a person finds out that they're *already* epileptic whilst sitting in front of the TV, rather than (for ex.) belting down the road with the sun flashing through railings (another well known trigger).

  • Peekaboo #35 8 years ago

    I must be one of the few people on this planet that actually reads the manual when I buy a game.......Yet so many people read the Sun. There's something weird going on there........

  • Khab #36 8 years ago

    Can't you guys just shoot all journalists once and for all and start over fresh?

  • Tiger_Walts #37 8 years ago

    I 100% agree that every game should adhere to a mandatory health test as part of the QA process. With a computer analysing the video images during playtesting, the things that are most likely to induce an attack can be picked up with no extra time cost. The same can go for joypad rumble, some games have the actuators in a joypad on almost constantly, with this there is a risk of capilliary damage.

    The Sun could have explored the current guidelines and legislation on this issue and put forward a positive argument, companies DO take steps to alert the user about this problem but is it enough?. Instead they go for the sensationalist approach, lazy, lazy journalism..

  • Kami #38 8 years ago

    Timberland, just convince yourself of that... just keep fooling yourself...

    The rest of us know that Nintendo are not alone in this... it's a common problem and focusing on,and blaming, one company is not going to help.


    I would agree, but The Sun pretty much stands for shoddy journalism. I mean, seriously, how many buy it for the stories? OK. Now hands up if you buy it for Page 3...


    Rest. My. Case.

  • CyberClaw #39 8 years ago

    3william56, it is dangerous. The person turns pale white, and starts shaking uncontrolably/loosing conscience. This can lead simply to some bruises, to bitting and even swollowing the tongue, incontinency, screaming, and even breaking some bones with a bad enough fall, depending on the location and the state of the ceizure, if the person felt it coming or not, etc.

    If unatended for 20-30 minutes, it can cause permanent brain injury or even death. There is also a rare chance of happening an sudden unexplained death by epilepsy, which affects arround 2% of all the deaths related to epilepsy (so very very small). This isn't really understood by doctors, since people just die without any signs of a ceizure.

    There is obviously medicine to help to stop it, but the person must try to have a balanced life. Good sleeping habits for e.g.

    It isn't a disease per say, but many factors together that make a person subject to it, like brain damage, tumors, etc. Half of the people who have epilepsy the doctors don't know why they have it. It has to do with electrical impulses sent to the brain. Quite in fact 5% of the world population will suffer from a ceizure of some form during their lifetime.

    An epiletic ceizure to a pregnate woman is VERY dangerous for various reasons as you can imagine, and it is inerited (even if your parents don't have it, but a uncle has it, you might have it)

    There is plenty of information in www.epilepsy.com

  • chacha #40 8 years ago

    Kami we realise that nintendo are not alone but you have to admit they are the main culprit as there games are more colourful and flashy than the others, thats not to say that sony and MS sghould do nothing either.

    i agree with cyberclaw, games companies have a responsibilty and maybe there should be some form of testing regarding epilipsey as are flashing lights that cause seizures really that necessary in games like mario kart - i think not

    and nintendo should take on the greatest responsibility as they are aiming at the younger audience, who are at the greatest risk as many of them may not have yet found outh wether they suffer from seizures

  • Kami #41 8 years ago

    But it's not just "Kiddy" games. Nintendo may be bright and vivid, but there are games out there which, to be honest, people forget can also have a similar effect.


    It's not that Nintendo are the biggest offender in this - they are offenders but many games also have this problem.


    It's just that Nintendo are the easiest target...


    And, tbh, we did already know this.


    I'm not disputing Ninty are culprits, and other companies also need to focus on this issue.

    I just don't think warning labels and banning games that pose a risk for a minority are really the solution. We should just make the issue known, and make sure people do know that games, in general, can cause an epileptic fit.


    We're talking about it though, which is a start.

  • Genome #42 8 years ago

    Hang on... Mega Man X? Did I just read that right?

    Well, of course, anyone who actually still has a copy of this game should keep it away from epileptics.

    It really makes them look like idiots when they bring ten year old games into their conclusion, because you can't even find them anymore.

  • MBar #43 8 years ago

    The Sun : the official paper for Nintendo-brand epileptics

    do us all a favour and fuck off already. your newspaper is a joke to anyone with more than half a brain cell. just become a porno mag and be done with it, idiots.

  • gamingdave #44 8 years ago

    If you are aware that you are epileptic then im sure you would benefit from a warning on the label, quite how it would work I have no idea,dont people have different tolerances? However if your unaware of your condition, or the buying parent is unaware, then what notice are they going to pay to a label? Theres already a consumer information and precaution booklet inside all the gamecube boxs, sticking the warning on the outside IMO wont make a difference to the unaware.

    For years manuals have told us to take a 15 minute break every hour. If you look at that information booklet in the gamecube boxs, and if I remember correctly inside the gamecube box itself, it also states a load of other advice. I dont pay any attention to it but know the advice is there, often gaming on the projector in a dark room for several hours without breaking. A child may not understand this advice, and its a parents responsibility in this case to make the desisions. No parent should be buying any machine for their child and not reading all safety instructions that are supplied.

  • jawolf #45 8 years ago

    Every Gamecube game I own, THERE IS a warning on the packaging. The back cover has a RED BOX giving a warning about Seizures(Photosensitivity).

    Literate people are informed to read the precaution booklet. Illiterate people just see red and white squares with undecipherable glyphs. The first warning in the precaution booklet states "!WARNING - Seizures", and proceeds to state to watch their children playing games(and what to watch for). I suspect there will be a lawsuit from a parent that had a seizure whilst "watching their children play video games" and blame it on the booklet stating they should watch their children play computer games. They should add a clause "Warning please get someone else to watch children if you yourself have seizures" to cover all bases.

    X-Box games have a similar, if not less pronounced, warning on the back cover with info in the package. Lastly the PS2 games sort of glaze over the concept on the front page of the manual, giving a stronger heading to "PIRACY" than the "Health Warnings". With no warning on cover. I suspect Sony don't want the people to miss the small 1/8 page warning*, if they receive a "gold disc" edition. Anyone have Dance Dance Revolution or the like on the PS2 and can inform me of it's package warnings?

    If you can read the tabloid you can read the label on a new game. Hey if you can read this forum....

    You are right Kami. Maybe a short video clip at start shouting "Hey parents..." and proceded to give virtues to child if there is no game save info for game. They'd sell more memory cards, so the makers would have more incentive.

    REMEMBER buy the game: even if only to get your Health Warning.(SM)

    (*based on Ratchet & Clank(TM) booklet )

  • CyberClaw #46 8 years ago

    Jawolf, I have 3 original PAL GC games, published by Nintendo in front of me. Zelda, Metroid and Mario Sunshine. Here are the warnings I can see:

    -Read the instruction booklet before setup or use your system.
    -For use with PAL GC only. Not compatible with NTSC GC
    -Please Retain the Packaging
    -ELPSA rating (3+ for Zelda for e.g.)

    No more warnings on the box. Although I wasn't sugesting a warning for every game. I was sugesting a warning for more color intensive games (in the box, so that people KNEW before buing them - like I said not all games, but color intensive games like Mario), like the ones described above - which are MORE likely to start a seizure. Moreover, even more important, it would be to have playtesting sessions, to detect parts of the game which might trigger ceisures, and change them before publishing the game.

  • jawolf #47 8 years ago

    Hmmm....

    CyberClaw, I have a US GC and each game definately does have the warning on the outside and in. I'm at a loss as to why they don't have it on the PAL versions??? Maybe that is why Nintendo takes so long to get games to market in Europe and Australia? They spend time taking warnings off the cover art!? I am at a loss.

    In the US they probably are ready for more litigous folk?

    I just wish I could read Japanese so I could work out if the Japanese region ones have a similar warning(and work out what I was doing in that wierd box game Dobache Bancho[sic] and Biohazard!?)

  • CyberClaw #48 8 years ago

    Cover arts are very different from region to region.
    A glaring example, is that the color scheme of the US PS2 Platinum hits is main black/ secondary red if I recall, while the Euro Platinum Hits is main silver/ secondary black.
    The classification of the game is also different from region to region, and there are different organisms to classify the game in the different regions.

    All in all, the cover might be similar, but it's hardly the same.

  • Eraser #49 8 years ago

    And I object to being "nannied" because a few doctors and epileptics are to pig-stubborn to open up a god-damned manual! And this covers all games, on all systems. If they can't be arsed to open the manual or remember that they have to at least check first, then that's their bad.

    While I do agree with you that banning these games is outrageous (only a very, very small portion of the people playing those games have epileptic seizures), I do feel that the current warnings are not effective. Every game carries an epilepsy warning (edit: the same "general" warning that's not specific for that game but aimed at games in general), so that makes it hard for people to distinguish a puzzle game without bright flashes from a game that does have bright flashes. If doctors/governments/epileptics want to do something about it, let them set up a rating system where games are rated by risk factor, just like games have an age rating. This way it'll be easier for people to distinguish those games that carry a risk.


    20 year old are usually already aware of their epiletic condition. 5 years old, aren't. This'll mean many 5 year old kids will be playing games for their age (Super Marios and Pokemons). I mean the console and games are designed with kids in mind. The content of the game, the shape of the disk, the size and shape of the console - why not take a little more care to ensure shit doesn't happen.

    The parents should be responsible for that sort of thing. 5 year olds don't run into a gaming store by themselves. It's the parents that get the console and games.
    Edited by 1 at 16/06/04 @ 10:08

  • Eraser #50 8 years ago

    Another thing though, it's ironic they pick Nintendo out of all things because Nintendo started the whole epilepsy warning label thing.

  • CyberClaw #51 8 years ago

    dk_rare, actually, no. MS would probably issue a statement and watch the reaction, then decide what to do, and Sony wouldn't even care. Nintendo doesn't either.

    Want to know what it is to dirty Nintendo name? Is simply to dig up their past. Did you know that during the Nes, SNes and N64 times, Nintendo practiced price fixing with stores, and it was already punished in court twice for doing so? Price fixing, is threatning the stores, that if they don't sell their system for the price they wish, they'll stop giving the system to them (thus there is no market competivity betwen shop prices, and the system remains solid at the same price). This was effective in the Nes/SNes age, since Nintendo was the only brand that sold. Who got fucked? Who got fucked? We, consumers, got fucked.
    Want me to draw my toilet paper "Nintendo fucked us bad" list? You just have to ask. I could be here all day long.

  • Kay #52 8 years ago

    Nintendo may not be perfect, but neither are Sony and Microsoft. Every business needs to make money. Besides, the good outweighs the bad - Nintendo has arguably done more for the industry than any other company.

  • CyberClaw #53 8 years ago

    Yea, and also went to court more than any other company's gaming sections (MS's XBox or Sony's PS).
    Some people forget they are here for only one thing, making money, and if for that they need to force you to use 4 GBAs, or threaten shops to not supply them with their products in case they don't fix the prices, it just starts getting low you see? Why are some retailers not supplying Nintendo GC stuff anymore? I'll tell you what, I bet price fixing as something to do with it, either bad business now, or simply ressent from bad business not so long ago (N64 age).

  • CyberClaw #54 8 years ago

    I could go on forever. Why did Sony disagree with Nintendo when developing the PSX? I mean, Nintendo would be up now if they hadn't screwed things with Sony and their partnership. Instead, Nintendo wanted to do things their way, and fucked things up. Sony kept the PSX, Nintendo moved to develop the N64.
    Why are 3rd party devs neglecting Nintendo GC? Just because it bunks at sale, or is there something more to it? Nintendo has the arshest 3rd party support and agreements, specially compared to the other 2 gaming giants. And believe me, it is nothing compared to how it was 10 years ago. 10 years ago, you'd make a blood oath with nintendo, and promise them your firstborn so that you could develop a game to their system.

  • Kay #55 8 years ago

    I don't think that Nintendo have 'fucked things up'. They are, despite what you may hear, still quite successful (especially in Japan), and I don't think they are too worried about the position of the GameCube. The reason that Nintendo likes to do things their own way is because that is how they work best. You mention the incident with Sony and the original PlayStation as if it was a bad thing that Nintendo didn't continue on with the partnership. They went on to produce the N64, featuring some of the most critically acclaimed games of all time. Then came the GBA, which virtually sealed the handheld market for them, and again featuring excellent games. And the excellent games still keep on coming, and will continue to do so for quite some time. If they did 'do a Sega', then all the focus will be on Microsoft and Sony, and all epilepsy claims etc. will be directed at them.

  • CyberClaw #56 8 years ago

    Kay, are you telling me Zelda, Ocarina of Time wouldn't have been better on the PSX? Sure, the graphics would suck, but the sound samples and music would be way better.

    Keep in mind N64 could only read games that took up to 32 Megs of memory. Thats very few, compared to PSX 700 Megs, Dreamcast 1.2 Gig, or PS2/XBox 9 Gig.

    There were good 1st party games, and that was about it. Nintendo did a couple of good games, and Rare made many excelent games. But there was no third party what so ever. The N64 could take the high polys, but it hadn't the memory to take the textures, so the models would all bland, and without any deepness. If Nintendo was a inovator, they'd be more worryed with having a good and cheap medium. Instead, they went for the fast and harder to copy medium, but that cripled their games in many ways, from sound to textures.

    Just that you imagine, a each DOA3 character model, has 2 megs of textures. Musics are 10 -30 Megs each. And sounds go from 600ks to 1 meg. Now imagine having to do a whole game limited to 32 megs...

    Nintendo made many mistakes in the N64.

    Want another small example of Nintendo way of doing things?

    Nintendo releaces GBA - what you say is the finest portable machine (and you are right, since it's the ONLY one, short of the NeoGeo Pocket Color which doesn't have support), but you pick up ANY review of the GBA, and you'll read about the crappy design that makes it impossible to play games in it. The monitor isn't lighted up and it's reflective, so one can't see S#!t. How come this was even released?
    Anyhow, they keep to the guns, release this, people buy it, and when afterburner kits started being sold (so you could mod your GBA and make it be self lighted), Nintendo releases the GBASP - which was now really a fine machine IMO. Folding in half, lighted up, rechargeable batery... excelent console... if it wasn't missing features that GBA had. For some reason (a reason I'll explain in a minute) Nintendo found convinient to not include a phone jack in GBSP, while GBA, GBC, GBP and the original GB, all had phone jacks. Now the reason is quite obvious. Nintendo has a fetish for acessories. Better yet, Nintendo likes to suck us to the bone, making us buy 80 extra bits and boobs. So, the phone jack was now an adaptor. Not a big diference, but uncompreencible, unless you open your eyes and see that they really are fucking us in the arse.

    This is the reason why I KNOW for sure FFCC was "forced" by Nintendo to only work with 4 GBAs in MP. They want to sell HW to the fans, because the software sales are sinking.

    Oh, and they like to do things their own way, because they are moneywangers. They drive the arshest business in town, fucking everyone, not minding the laws, and fucking the 3rd party devs, just that they can make the extra buck today. They simply are stupid because they forget that in the next day, they are presented to the court for their ilegal business (happened at least a couple of times), and that the 3rd party support moves on to other consoles, leaving them in the hunger. It happened with the N64, and it is happening with the GC. Specially nowadays that 3rd party is many times as good as 3rd party, they should be making the extra effort not to loose any more 3rd party support. But they still have arsher rules to publish on the GC, than to publish on the PS2 or XBox. How many 3rd party exclusives can you think of? Right now, ony a couple comes to my mind, Billy Hatcher and FFCC from SEGA.

    I look at the XBox, I look at the PS2, and I have many good 3rd party games. Final Fantasy, GTA, Metal Gear, Otogi, Ninja Gaiden, DOA, KUFTC, Fable...
    They are all 3rd party.

    I can think of at least 15 3rd party games that I want to see released in XBox, and other 15 on the PS2 which are now in development. I can't think of one single 3rd party game for the GC not yet released (which remotly interests me). Tell me in what way is this a good aproach? Tell me in what way would it hurt their way of doing things to have a bigger 3rd party support....

  • CyberClaw #57 8 years ago

    Yea, but nowadays only big publishers like EA or Ubisoft take the risk. As for exclusives:
    Billy Hatcher - exclusive
    FF:CC - exclusive
    Metal Gear TTS - remake of the PSX/PC version (a graphic update, to an old game, by no means exclusive, and missing many features of the original, like the VR missions)
    P.N.03 - Exclusive
    Beach Spikers - exclusive
    Super Monkey Ball - exclusive (I am trying to remmember if I saw this one before in another console, I believe DC, but I can't recall - and if you consider NGage half assed convertion it's not exclusive - but lets not go there)
    Super Monkey Ball 2 - exclusive (read above)
    Virtua Striker 3 - exclusive (it's like saying Fifa 2005 if exclusive the PS2. So fucking what. It's Fifa 2004+1 and plays and looks exactly the same - Virtua Striker 2 was released on the DC)
    Resident Evil Remake - not exclusive, remake of the PC,PSX,Saturn game
    Resident Evil 0 - exclusive (Capcom broke the exclusivity on Viewtifull Joe, will it break in the RE series?)
    Resident Evil 4 - exclusive (read above)

    Which is funny because you only mentioned titles already released. No future whatsoever for 3rd party GC support - other than the big guns (EA and Ubisoft)?
    Sega released it's fair share of exclusives in the Cube, and Capcom had an arragement which they are now breaking free of. The question, is that the few 3rd party support it had in the past, is now turning into no 3rd party support at all (like I said, exclusives). Taking into consideration they are the only manufacturer who says they intend to milk this console, doesn't talk of the next console, says this console still has much to give, yada yada yada - it's really funny. MS and Sony are all guns-o with developing the new console, and preparing for it's launch. Rummors fly left and right every day. They are supporting the current generation, with the best 1st and 3rd part titles to be released on them, but after the final and best wave, they'll move on. Fable, KUFTC, Tekken 5, Virtua Fighter 4 Final Tune, Armored Core Nexus, FF12, KH2, Ico 2 (if it wasn't canceled) GTA SA... I'm just picking names off hte top of my mind, of games I'll certainly look into. All 3rd party, all exclusives, and all of them still to be released. Nintendo on the other hand, keeps bumping the GC, saying there is still much power to use in it, etc. but we only see promising 1st party games in the future - no exclusive 3rd party support.

    What I'm saying, is that with the GC, we can only count with the first party for quality exclusives now. MS and Sony have more 3rd party exclusives I'm looking into than 1st party, and they both still have a big share of 1st party, believe me (Halo 2 pops into my mind ^^;)

  • Kay #58 8 years ago

    CyberClaw - you really hate Nintendo, don't you? I have about 12 games on the GameCube which I consider brilliant (I only buy the brilliant games), and there are tons more games which I haven't managed to get yet because of time and money. I think all this obsession with lots and lots of games is ridiculous - as long as they have a healthy amount of good games on the system, that will be fine for me. I want to play the likes of Halo 2, GTA SA, Ico etc., but as I said before, there's only so much games I can play. Nintendo have made some of the greatest games of all time, and for that they deserve a place in the industry. In fact, if you were look into the practices of Microsoft and Sony, arguably the two biggest companies in the world, I'm sure you will find a lot, lot worse. Otherwise they wouldn't have got where they are today. And please - calm down.

  • CyberClaw #59 8 years ago

    10 games on the GC, 3 on the GBA, 3 on the SNes, 10 in the Nes, 5 on the N64, and 2 on the GBC.
    Do I find their comercial tactics insulting for me as a consumer? Hell yes.

    I also have Windows in my PC, that doesn't mean I enjoy licking Bill Gates by supporting it (although Windows XP is very good, unlike ME Edition). Although I support good products that care for the consumer. One such example for me is the XBox. Excelent consumer support. I mean, the stuff they do with it, it's the stuff I want them to do with it. I don't feel fucked over and over again just because they want to make the quick buck.

  • CyberClaw #60 8 years ago

    Kay, MS only went to court for stuff you and me will find amuzing to say the least. Stuff like having Internet Explorer pre-instaled in Windows, and not being able to de-install components of windows (media player and internet explorer) - because that way people won't buy their competitors software (netscape, etc). Oh, they also went to court, because they are too big, and they should be split into 2 companies.

    I dunno what you think about the above accusations, but I find them pretty silly. Can't they bumdle whatever they want with their OS for free now? So what, it can't be un-installed, does it bother you? It's not like you can't install netscape in it. And splitting the company into 2 was just pure jolly. WTF, can't a company be big now (in case you are wondering, MS wasn't split as you probably guessed).

    Anyway, while MS is attacked at court because it is too big (let's face it, no one would charge another OS because it comes bundled with a browser), Nintendo is attacked for being comercially incorrect - and exercing "threats" over comerciants, and influenciating market prices. I mean, not supporting online games, forcing one to buy 4 GBAs to enjoy FFCC mp, that's all internal decisions on their products, that may sound cool or lame (the examples given here are lame in my pov), but they went the extra step to get near a comericant, and say something on this lines:
    "You ear me bub, you either keep those N64 games at 80 Euros a piece, or you won't get any more pokemon shipments"
    Now, in the N64 era, this didn't have almost any influence at all, since N64 was a prety minority in the market. But in the Nes/SNes era, the videogame stores profit was solely from Nintendo products (which regained public trust on videogames after the big crash - kudos on Nintendo for that - the problem being that they abused their position).

    I mean, when one person finds the cure for AIDS, they won't sell it for a kuasilion dollars to 3 people. They'll sell it at a reasonable price, with a profit margin, yes, but still in the buderies of the law.

    I know AIDS is a medical disease, and it's a more serious business - but don't be fooled. It's a business all the same. All they want to make is a buck in the end of the month.

    What distinguishes the good from the bad, is the business etic and the persuasion techniques used with the merchants. Nintendo obviously, is a street bully, who once bullyed merchants, and now is fucked in the arse by many who won't store their products.

  • Kay #61 8 years ago

    Nintendo may have been to court for worse things, but MS and Sony have also most probably done some bad things that are not yet known about. No-one knew about the price fixing until it came in the news, did they? Who knows, in ten years time Microsoft may be in court for something that they are doig now.

  • CyberClaw #62 8 years ago

    Well, sorry, but you are accusing MS and Sony of something they MIGHT have done. That's just plain silly. For all we know, Nintendo might sell children into slavery, or even use real human kidneys to make their Pikachu dolls. But since we don't know about it, we don't speculate.

    Anywho, I received an email this afternoon which was interesting. Mr. Richard Trahant, an attourney who appeared in the BBC Nintendo documentary commented on a small detail about Nintendo and Epilepsy I personally didn't know, and I supose most of you don't. I'll quote him:
    "What the avid gamers (I was one at one point in the early 1980's) don't realize is that Nintendo has been held in contempt of court more than once for tampering with and hiding documents on this topic."

  • CyberClaw #63 8 years ago

    I'll just add one small thing that Mr. Richard Trahant sent me. He said to google for "Roccaforte v. Nintendo of America". I found interesting stuff, really. It's a lawsuit against Nintendo saying children suffered seizures for playing Nintendo games. Here is a quote on the case:

    "Unfortunately for Nintendo, the Louisiana Court of Appeal for the Fifth Circuit held in November of last year that the company's numerous discovery abuses during the Roccaforte trial required that the verdict be vacated and the case remanded for a new trial. The district court sanctioned Nintendo for questionable oversights twice during the trial. In the first instance, Nintendo, without court approval, redacted the contact information of consumers who complained of video game related seizures from documents requested by the plaintiff. On the second occasion, Nintendo failed to turn over hundreds of pages of documents which proved that not only was Nintendo aware of the problem of video game induced seizures, but also that the company knew which games were more likely to cause such seizures. The information was finally given to the plaintiff on the third day of the trial. It was only at this point that Nintendo stipulated that the video game had caused the plaintiff's seizures."

    Apparently, not only do they threaten shop owners, but they also hide and "modify" evidence. They are going to go to a new trial face the hidden evidence.

  • bzzct #64 8 years ago

    can't a company be big now

    Actually no, but there's no 'now' about it, this has been the case for a long time. If one company has too great a market share in one area the Monopolies and Mergers commission looks into whether or not it should be allowed to continue trading as one company, as to do so would be disadvantageous to the consumer.

  • CyberClaw #65 8 years ago

    Kolmar, yea I understand the reasoning for it, but it's like measuring basketball player heights. Nope you can't play. You're too big. It'd be a disavantage for everyone else. And look at your arms.

    :) I just find it silly, that's all. They go to court not because they did something wrong, but because they did extremely well.