EGTV: Microsoft execs slam Sony's strategy

By Games Industry.biz Published 30 May, 2006

You know, the Blu-Ray one.

And they're off, again - two top Xbox Europe execs have launched an astonishing attack on Sony, the likes of which has not been seen since Sharon Osbourne had a go at Rebecca Loos last night.

Speaking to Eurogamer TV in part one of an exclusive E3 interview broadcast today, Xbox UK boss Neil Thompson and Europe boss Chris Lewis both accused Sony of “forcing” its Blu-Ray DVD technology onto gamers.

“Sony are now making people pay an extra few hundred pounds for a Blu-Ray DVD drive which we don't know is going to be the standard in the next-generation DVD formats,” Thompson insisted.

“This is the company that brought out Betamax – we don't quite know where they're going to go with this,” he added, in a pointed reference to Sony's defeat in the format war against VHS (note for younger readers: sort of like a cross between DVDs and "cassette tapes").

Microsoft reckons Sony is playing right into its hands with the inclusion of Blu-Ray in the PS3, since Xbox 360 owners will have the option to upgrade to next-gen movie tech later this year with the release of a standalone HD-DVD drive.

“If gamers over time choose to go to HD-DVD we're going to give them the choice to do that, but we're not going to force them to buy that day one,” Thompson remarked.

“I find it concerning for consumers that they're being forced into a purchase... I don't think they need to make that decision for another two, three years maybe. Sony now have a very interesting business model I think they're going to find challenging.”

Thompson's frank views were backed by Europe boss Chris Lewis, who added: “[PS3's] is an interesting price point that in my view forces the consumer down a choice path in a way that I'm surprised to see.”

Lewis also added that the high price of the PS3 means there's less pressure on MS to reduce the price of the Xbox 360 before the year is out, commenting: “We're confident that we are at the right price at the right time and will remain so, and nothing I've heard in the last two days does anything other than frankly reinforce that view.”

Part one of the exclusive interview with Chris Lewis and Neil Thompson is now showing on Eurogamer TV. Osbourne vs. Loos is now showing on YouTube.

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Comments (150) Latest comment 6 years ago

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  • BartonFink #1 6 years ago

    Firstly let me say they are just saying what everybody else has been saying really.

    Good point about the 360 price point why should they bother reducing it when there is no need.
    Edited by 1 at 30/05/06 @ 17:28

  • Nebularhaze #2 6 years ago

    Buuuuuuuuuuuuu Ray

    /runs away

  • NoCodeNed2 #3 6 years ago

    They do nothing if not hanker after the popular vote...kind of slipped up with the, well we're not going to bother dropping our prices now bit though. Rather annoying from the richest company in the world.

  • El_MUERkO #4 6 years ago

    /clicks yououtube link

  • Carlo #5 6 years ago

    MS are 'forcing' MCE and their DRM'ed video format on us too... Blah blah blah, cry me a river etc etc.

  • NoCodeNed2 #6 6 years ago

    @barton Fink - because it will have been out for over a year by Xmas and you'd hope that the manufacturing costs being reduced will be passed on to the consumer.

    Oh, well, big corporation, guess you can't expect anything different.

    /sulks

  • trampatoni #7 6 years ago

    MS are just pissed that they launched too soon to include the HD-DVD drive in it. Wait a couple of years and Sony will be proved to be correct.

  • Hench #8 6 years ago

    I don't think Microsoft realise that blu-ray is an important part for games.

    Even if the battle for blu-ray is not won by sony, we still have blu-ray games to play and then sony may still release a "HD-DVD" add-on.

    Sony, Go-Create lol

  • Stormflood. #9 6 years ago

    pot, kettle, black

    Do they really need to stoop to this bitchy level? Sony are giving themselves enough of a hard time without MS needing to swing their handbags.

  • EggyDeth #10 6 years ago

    Rrrrreeeeoowww! !!

    Handbags at dawn girls

  • teabagger #11 6 years ago

    Blu-Ray isn't important for games. There is very little on a console, if at all, that cannot fit onto a DVD. Compression techniques are getting better by the day, again reducing the need for larger capacity discs for games. Plus, the fabrication costs for DVDs will be significantly less than Blu-Ray, making the DVD the more attractive option for publishers.

    Sony isn't just a games company, the Blu-Ray is there to try and stimulate market growth for a movie format that Sony owns. If they can say to Hollywood "look, we have x-amount of Blu-Ray players in the market" then that will encourage take up of the format. It basically boils down to the PS3 being a product of Sony as a whole, and not just Sony Computer Entertainment.

    So, with that in mind, to bitch about their strategy purely in terms of it being a games machine is missing the point. When you look at it with the wider consideration of Sony as a whole, and them wanting to promote their interests and stimulate growth in non-gaming aspects of the business, then it makes sense.
    Edited by 2 at 30/05/06 @ 17:43

  • Razz #12 6 years ago

    Blu Ray should have been an add-on :/

  • BartonFink #13 6 years ago

    +1

  • BartonFink #14 6 years ago

    @Xiphos - I don't get your last comment

    Sony - this means that the PS3 is not a threat, but their (Sony's) attempts to undermine HD-DVD are.
    MS don't have that much of a vested interest in HD-DVD. If Blu-ray did turn out to be a success you can be certain there would be a Blu-ray add on.

    Microsoft's WMV and HD downloadble media and Blu-ray pissing on it is what is pissing them off.
    Huh?
    Edited by 2 at 30/05/06 @ 17:45

  • Balסּr #15 6 years ago

    Now that it's cool...

    *Grabs a pitchfork and joins the crowd!*

    :D

  • Drakron #16 6 years ago

    Yep.

    The Xbox 360 was supposed to come with a HD-DVD drive but in order to beat PS3 launch they just put a common DVD player.

    MS have no right to slam Sony stategy because they coming out with a HD-DVD player for the Xbox 360 that futher points out they are in the "next DVD format" race as much as Sony ... after all MS "option" is play normal DVDs any HD-DVDs (if you buy their player)... just like the PS3 offers the option of playing normal DVDs and Blu-Ray DVDs.

    They think we are stupid? sure Sony is backing Blu-Ray and Sony does have a point when it says that PS3 price is cheap for a Blu-Ray player right now with the problem being just that, neither Blu-Ray or HD-DVD (that MS is backing in the Xbox 360) is that important for games right now, 3 years down the line the PS3 ends up being more attractive ... the only question of Sony strategy is the PS3 launch price might serious hurt 3rd party support and we end up with the same situation of the PS2 and Xbox were the technical superior is beaten by lack of support.

    If Sony execs are not very smart then it seems MS ones are just as smart as Sony ..

  • JediMasterMalik #17 6 years ago

    “I find it concerning for consumers that they're being forced into a purchase... I don't think they need to make that decision for another two, three years maybe. Sony now have a very interesting business model I think they're going to find challenging.”

    Wow aren't these guys geniuses. Firstly the only way you are forced to buy the Blu-Ray is if you want a PS3 that badly. I'm sick of hearing all this complaining about Blu-Ray and the price. Leave Sony to it, and stop with the hissy fits. If you think that Blu-ray is unnecessary and the console is too expensive, there is the obvious option of not buying one. *prepares to be called fanboy*

  • Steroyd #18 6 years ago

    are they going at it again.

    you know what screw it, the Blu-ray did not raise the price of the PS3 so high it was their late decision to include a Hard Drive as standard.

    If you compare last years tech specs with this years one you'll noticed the difference of the HDD not even being mentioned in the PS3's tech specs.

    And Blu-ray will be used for games goddamnit.

  • teabagger #19 6 years ago

    "Get yer angry mob supplies here!"

  • teabagger #20 6 years ago

    "And Blu-ray will be used for games goddamnit."

    Towards the end of the machines life perhaps, but right now? Nah. No need, and too expensive to release on Blu-Ray just for the hell of it.

  • Drakron #21 6 years ago

    You already have games that have more that one DVD, sure its not "needed" since you can always swamp disks but remenber that americans are very lazy and so Blu-Ray means they are not forced to walk 1 meter to swamp disks.

  • JediMasterMalik #22 6 years ago

    The epic CEO said that Blu-ray would be necessary for next gen games, adding that UT2007 may well require the space of Blu-ray. This is probably why it isn't coming to 360. If you don't beleive him who do you beleive?

  • Raziel #23 6 years ago

    What?

    Again?

    How is this news?

  • BartonFink #24 6 years ago

    @Drakon - The Xbox 360 was supposed to come with a HD-DVD drive but in order to beat PS3 launch they just put a common DVD player.

    It was since when?

  • thinktank #25 6 years ago

    I wonder how many of you Sony fans would actualy buy a blu-ray peripheral, if it was offered as an add on and the stand alone system was say around £280.........

    That is assuming the blue ray component would cost around £150??

  • symmetry #26 6 years ago

    There's no way in hell that Blu-Ray is necessary for gaming. I doubt it will hardly be used in PS3 games at all when you consider that developers with publish on the lowest common denominator on next-gen games, just like they have on current-gen. That lowest common denominator is the DVD drive on the 360. (this is a previous argument I saw and stole btw)
    Edited by 2 at 30/05/06 @ 18:05

  • thinktank #27 6 years ago

    it was mine!!!

    Thief!!

  • tengu #28 6 years ago

    How many times are we going to have to read this same shite over and over? Microsoft don't like Sony you say? Fuck me, hold the front page!

  • Sko #29 6 years ago

    Fair play on getting the interviews but you planning on making this E3 stuff last until next May? ;)

  • Mordum #30 6 years ago

    @thinktank

    "I wonder how many of you Sony fans would actualy buy a blu-ray peripheral, if it was offered as an add on and the stand alone system was say around £280........."

    Great point, very few would I imagine... just as very few will buy the HD-DVD add on for the 360, I certainly won't be. Maybe in a few years when one of the formats has won the war (if any of them do), then once they're down in price I'll purchase a stand alone player... I certainly will not be using a games console to play my movies.

  • megastar #31 6 years ago

    "Shout out if you're getting a PS3?
    Nope, no one. Microsoft need to start slating Nintendo, they're going to be it's nearest competitors, not Sony".

    do you actually believe that?

  • Beano #32 6 years ago

    MS=Mucho Sad

    "do you actually believe that? "

    Do you really belive anything else?
    Edited by 1 at 30/05/06 @ 18:34

  • CrumpledPaper #33 6 years ago

    Silly comments. PS3 is not a few hundred pounds more than 360. And gamers might be glad Blu-ray is being "forced" on them if it becomes as important to games as many developers seem to be suggesting. It doesn't matter what happens in movies, Blu-ray will still be as useful as it would ever be for games - but I think it's almost a given Blu-ray will beat HD-DVD anyway, IMO.

    Also, Sony may have brought us Betamax, but people who brought you VHS (JVC) are also behind it!

  • JediMasterMalik #34 6 years ago

    See you people think you know more about game development that Mark Reign. He says more space is needed, yet you morons insist with a passion that he is talking BS. Sure the guy only made one of the most successful shooting games, what does he know?

  • Barghest #35 6 years ago

    I feel like I'm between the Devil and the deep blue sea. I hate those lying buggers at Sony, but I loath Microsoft even more.

  • IronGiant #36 6 years ago

    Hmmm quite a lot of Sony bashing lately from MS, are they getting worried..

  • wired009 #37 6 years ago

    The price point for the PS3 seems high to most people at this time, but it's premature to start bashing Sony on the decision to include Blu-Ray. We know that BR is meant primarily for hi-def movie viewing, and it remains to be seen how effective developers are in utilizing the extra capacity. Still, I applaud Sony for having the guts to include a new feature in their next gen console instead of the generic upgrades that lead some to call Xbox 360 the Xbox 1.5. If the PS3 life cycle is 6-8 years and hi-def movie formats catch on, as I anticipate they will, Blu-Ray may become a very useful feature. As bad as Sony's record is at successfully marketing proprietary formats, console hardware add-ons have fared badly too. I don't like MS's strategy of covering all the bases so they can say they did it too after Sony did the market testing for us. Remember when MS said that they weren't going to support HD storage media at all? If MS wants to be the leader in consoles they need to have some balls like Nintendo instead of being pussyfoots.

  • Gradthrawn #38 6 years ago

    I would like to point out that <a href=http:// ps3.ign.com/articles/696/696057p1.html>SCE is requiring all games to be published on BD</a>. They cite security concerns as the primary reason for this. So, there is no question of if games will be on BD. However, a game simply being on BD and a game actually taking advantage of the extra space are obviously 2 different things. It will be interesting to see how and if that extra space is used. I think its far too early to make an accurate assessment about how well the extra capacity will be utilized (or needed). I think by the time the 2nd generation of PS3 games, 3rd and 4th gen. of 360 games, roll out and devs. have had time to come to gripes with next-gen development, we’ll have a clearer picture about the advantages, or lack thereof , of Blu-Ray with gaming.

    Were I to add in my wild speculation about the subject, I would guess that SCE's 1st party developers will likely try to make use of the extra capacity very quickly, in order to help justify the medium for gaming. I would guess that the 1st gen. or so of PS3 games (from all developers) will use that space, but in a rather haphazard way that doesn't necessarily contribute anything meaningful to the gaming experience. SCE will likley encourage devs to add “DVD style" extras to the PS3 versions of games in order to help carry it through the 2nd Holliday season at full price. However, I think that after the initial wave of 1st gen games passes, and as the 2nd gen of PS3 games rolls out, the extra capacity will start to be used in a meaningful way. That's just my wild speculation.
    Edited by 2 at 30/05/06 @ 18:56

  • kangarootoo #39 6 years ago

    Isn't this kind of like Ronald McDonald saying he doesn't like Whoppers very much?

  • Nige #40 6 years ago

    The hours of entertainment these blokes must get after winding people up and watching the forums...

  • JediMasterMalik #41 6 years ago

    lol Nige, so true. Peter Moore, if your reading this, I don't like you and your tatoos. :D

  • crozon #42 6 years ago

    bah i am sticking with my pc. its troublesome, breaks down, games need patching, but when it works.........oh yeahhhhh..........the PC is like a super car in some respects..........

    who here is excited about high def dvds........and who here is going to stick with dvds and maybe be get a dvd player that ups the resolution...........me i am sticking with dvds for the time been.........

  • SlackMaster #43 6 years ago

    The blue ray drive is a part of the PS3 as Sony want to succeed in the next generation of movie playback. Pure and simple... as to the coments above UT2007 will be released on xbox360 and 1 or 2 dual layer dvd9 discs are more than enough for any game... the nonsense about having to swap is well... rubish... you only have to swap the disc once after playing through the inital disc.

  • crozon #44 6 years ago

    on the subject of content to fill more than a dvd is going to cost a hell of a lot plus an insane amount of development time..........one thing to note is that both oblivion and graw fit on a dvd easily and they are huge.............well i guess time will tell......

  • JediMasterMalik #45 6 years ago

    The UT2007 developers said they have not started developing the 360 version yet but have considered it, meaning for now it is PC and PS3 exclusive.

  • MaxiSleep #46 6 years ago


    JediMasterMalik said



    "The UT2007 developers said they have not started developing the 360 version yet but have considered it, meaning for now it is PC and PS3 exclusive."

    Not very exclusive then :)

  • JediMasterMalik #47 6 years ago

    You know what I mean. lol

  • inpHilltr8r #48 6 years ago

    MS don't have that much of a vested interest in HD-DVD

    Actually they do. They provide the interactive layer in the format, and stand to make hefty royalties on each disc. Blu-Ray went with a Java based system instead, thus incurring the wrath of Redmond. Up until that point MS was fairly format neutral. One of their video codecs is standard on both platforms.

  • SeesThroughAll #49 6 years ago

    Blu-Ray is TECHNOLOGICALLY SUPERIOR to HD-DVD, that's all I'm interested in. Not in Microsoft's two-faced bullshit.

    "If gamers over time choose to go to HD-DVD we're going to give them the choice to do that, but we're not going to force them to buy that day one"

    The words of those who are shoving Vista, lame media file formats, and more DRM than Sony can think of, down everyone's throats.

  • #50 6 years ago

    I don't get why they're slagging off Betamax, it was lightyears ahead of VHS at the time. What did this teach us?

    Well, not what MS try to sell us, that since Betamax failed to be the standards format Blu-ray will also fail.

    But that is bs, because this has actually taught us that we should learn from mistakes and choose the best technology available at the time even if it is more expensive. In a short time the price difference will be negligable anyway.

  • old_skool #51 6 years ago

    As someone pointed out earlier Blu-ray will be used for games primarily due to security issues ( dvd has very weak security), but you must consider the life cycle for the console which I think will span beyond 2015 .Including a larger format makes sense for such a long life cycle .And while compression saves on space the trade off is cpu cycles .That might be fine now because no one is maxing out the hardware yet but once start squeezing the life out of the machine one of the first things to go is compression , or alternatively using compression which takes minimal cpu cycles .Either way your disk usage increases .

    Sony has been bashed alot lately but between them , MS and Nintendo , they will be much better positioned in the longer term due to the technological implementations of the PS3 .

    /puts on flame-retardent suit

  • JediMasterMalik #52 6 years ago

    Considering how quickly they left the XBOX out to dry, yeh.

  • old_skool #53 6 years ago

    yeah good point or not , I'm keeping my suit on ! :-)

    The other advantage that Sony has is that they have a processor that scalable , they can use multiples of it , add a new GPU , more memory , more bandwidth and voila , you've got your next playstation . Ok maybe not so simple but their R&D have years to figure out how to implement multiple cells efficiently .Use the same programming languages that everybody learnt on the PS3 and , you end up with a less painfull and expensive hardware transition . Sort off what Ninento is doing right now with the transition from Gamecube to Wii .Anyway , that is wayyyyyy in the future something us mortals don't need to worry about , only Corporate CEO need to look 15-25 years in advance. We should just enjoy the games.

  • admir #54 6 years ago

    "I find it concerning for consumers that they're being forced into a purchase... "
    your are the one that force people who wanna play HALO 2 on PC to buy their shity Vista. nobody is forced to buy anythink its up to the people


    MS is full of shit I hate them the way they do business and many more reasons.

  • EGBartonFink #55 6 years ago

    Yea you tell em admir.
    What specifically do you hate about the way they do business btw or is it more of the blinkered blind type?
    Edited by 1 at 30/05/06 @ 21:45

  • EGBartonFink #56 6 years ago

    @SeesThroughAll - Blu-Ray is TECHNOLOGICALLY SUPERIOR to HD-DVD, that's all I'm interested in. Not in Microsoft's two-faced bullshit.

    No argument there but what's that to do with this. Sony are asking gamers to subsidise their Blu-ray push into the mainstream. No denying that is there?
    DVD was a new format when PS2 came out were we asked to pay over the odds then?

    How are MS being two faced by the way?

  • admir #57 6 years ago

    why do you wanna know? if you know their history you wouldn't ask that stupid question.

  • JediMasterMalik #58 6 years ago

    I dislike M$ due to their insistence that the way to get rid of competition is to spend as much money as possible. They have bought out lots of developers making exclusive games and have also decided to screw PC gamers over with this whole Halo 2 farce. Plus they let Bill Gates talk about a subject on which he has absolutely no idea about. Ever heard of a pause button Gates? They should have just stuckto developing software imo.

  • tiddles #59 6 years ago

    Leaders don't react.

  • JediMasterMalik #60 6 years ago

    For people who don't react, they sure do seem all too keen to talk about Sony and Nintendo. lol

    AFAIK talking about what someone else did or plans counts as a reaction.

  • Xephon70 #61 6 years ago

    ...because Microsoft never forced anyone to use anything of theirs...

    *hides in a bunker*

  • Walshicus #62 6 years ago

    JediMasterMalik said

    "The UT2007 developers said they have not started developing the 360 version yet but have considered it, meaning for now it is PC and PS3 exclusive."

    Not very exclusive then :)

    Really? That's at odds with the interview I watched with the UT2k7 guys, who were talking rather a lot about the possibilities - or rather the difficulties - of the 360 version being playable with the PS3 version online.

  • Tonic785 #63 6 years ago

    Damn, this really is the definition of kicking you when you're down..
    I think i type for all MS haters when i type... F*C* OFF!!! O:)
    Edited by 1 at 30/05/06 @ 22:53

  • JediMasterMalik #64 6 years ago

    htt p://www.beyondunreal.com/main/ut2007/about.php

    I don't know how to link it but here.

    Edit - on that same site it says Gears of Wars will be ported to PC. \o/
    Edited by 1 at 30/05/06 @ 22:57

  • Xerx3s #65 6 years ago

    You think that we could ever get a celebrity deathmatch with Ninty, MS & Sony ppl? Would be brilliant. ;)

  • Xerx3s #66 6 years ago

    "The epic CEO said that Blu-ray would be necessary for next gen games, adding that UT2007 may well require the space of Blu-ray. This is probably why it isn't coming to 360. If you don't beleive him who do you beleive?"

    Lets see; BULL. nahnahnahnahnah

    /puts fingers in his ears

  • NthSimulachum #67 6 years ago

    I wouldn't want to be an artist at epic this year.

    "Hey guys, we need 25 GB of artistic content for next years UT"

    Or maybe, they'll just fill the disc with a crapload of HD FMV.
    People are kindof missing the point, to create a game that requires that amount of space for data would need development cycles akin to Duke Nukem Forever.



  • JediMasterMalik #68 6 years ago

    Wonga, do you know how to read? It is confirmed for PC and PS3 but NOT for 360.

  • kangarootoo #69 6 years ago

    @admir

    If you knew their history you could answer that stupid question.

    You say youe hate MS for "the way they do business and amny more reasons". But given that they are a big business, what else can you hate them for exactly? The colour socks they wear? The way they type loudly on their stupid keyboards?

    I'll tell you what I don't like (not hate, I reserve that for rare and appropriate occasions). I don't like people that start name calling the second someone questions their opinion. In fact, I think its pathetic.

  • CrumpledPaper #70 6 years ago

    Some may wish to plug their ears for this too ;) :p

    "The 360 is a fantastic machine. I really really like it. The only thing, you know, that is going to cause trouble is the amount of storage space available on a DVD. That's really a problem." - Starbreeze Art Director

    This isn't going to get easier for MS. We're only, what, 6 months into the new generation. Games aren't at their most sophisticated or demanding. In the heel of the hunt, Blu-ray could prove crucial to Sony's strategy for PS3 purely as a games machine. Sony insists its important for games, and perhaps they're not far from the truth. If it does become a significant factor - and it may well do - it could be the key differentiator between PS3 and the other machines, more even than Cell.

    For what it's worth, there's also a rumour going around that Pandemic has only confirmed Mercenaries 2 for PS3 because they're not yet sure if they'll be able to make the game work on DVD. Just a rumour, but it came from a developer who heard this at E3. There's no exclusive deal between Pandemic and Sony, no money has exchanged hands - right now the hesitancy to confirm it for other platforms boils solely down to hardware.

  • Mordum #71 6 years ago

    @JediMasterMalik"
    "The epic CEO said that Blu-ray would be necessary for next gen games, adding that UT2007 may well require the space of Blu-ray. This is probably why it isn't coming to 360. If you don't beleive him who do you beleive?"

    Wonga: so I guess UT2007 isn't coming on PC then either? wow...

    JediMasterMalik: Wonga, do you know how to read? It is confirmed for PC and PS3 but NOT for 360.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    I think what Wonga was pointing out was, that the epic CEO said that Blue-Ray would be necessary for next gen games (UT2007), but its confirmed for a PC release... will the PC release be on a Blue-Ray disc? if not, then how can he say Blue-Ray is needed for UT2007?
    Edited by 1 at 31/05/06 @ 00:14

  • CrumpledPaper #72 6 years ago

    Rein didn't say it would specifically be necessary for UT2007. He just said their next-gen games in general. Here's the precise quote:

    "Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we're going to fit them on DVD9's I don't know, they'll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we're going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks."

    If UT2007 on PC did require 20GB+, it wouldn't be a big deal to put it on multiple DVDs for that platform, because you'd be installing it all to the HDD anyway. For another console, it would require disk swapping - which might be ok for some games, if inconvenient, but for others it would be a dealbreaker (i.e. any type of game that requires more data than a single dvd holds, and that's totally open and where you can go anywhere, anytime - in such instances there'd be tonnes of combinations of paths through the world, they could not expect you to swap the disc multiple times just to get from A to B!)
    Edited by 1 at 31/05/06 @ 00:19

  • Arwin #73 6 years ago

    One of the Unreal Engine's strongest points is that it is very artist friendly - artists can do a lot of work and add to the game without needing a programmer. Rein indicated that this improved the efficiency and output of the Art department considerably. Considering that about 40+ games are being developed with this engine, there are likely to be a few more like Unreal to use 20gb+ on BluRay.

    I'm not going to rehash all the arguments now ... you can read Greggman's blog (a developer) on this on the web. The blog is old already, but most relevant stuff has been said there (as much in the comments section as in the original article) or even confirmed: http://www.greggman.com/edit/editheadlines/2005-08-17.h tm

    What I would like to ask these MS guys though is if they really care about choice, then why not simultaneously release a BluRay add-on, eh?

    (Not that it matters much though, as such an add-on will never be used for games)

  • JediMasterMalik #74 6 years ago

    With a game like UT2007, I can't imagine disc-swapping working very well. Think about it. It is a multiplayer game with many different maps and modes, which will most likely take up most of the space needed. Can you imagine having a disc number next to each map whenever you wanted to join a game and having to switch discs just to play a different map? Not very appealing is it?

  • Kiigan #75 6 years ago

    There really is nothing to discuss here.

    It doesn't matter if BluRay is a cool technology or not; no one knows which way the hi-def DVD format wars are going to go yet. That's all that matters. For the vast majority of consumers, it makes no sense whatsoever to invest in either format at this point in time.

    It doesn't matter if developer X says he thinks his game can't fit on a normal 9GB dual-layer DVD; developers always say that kind of shit. The bottom line is that every platform has constraints of one kind or another, and 9GB is more than enough to be running with for the vast majority of titles. I shudder to think of how many artists you'd need to come anywhere near to filling a DVD, let alone a goddamn BluRay disk.

    It's one thing for Sony to foist a proprietary or unproven format on consumers, but it is quite another to expect gamers who just want a bloody games console to pick up the £400+ PS3 pricetag for the dubious pleasure of becoming BluRay early adopters. Sony have repeatedly said (in defence of the PS3 pricing) that the price is low considering you get a BluRay player bundled in. Are there really any gamers in the world who'd be disappointed if Sony swapped out the BluRay for good ol' DVD and dropped the PS3 price to a peachy sub-£300 price point?

    Lastly... regarding the criticism against MS for commenting on these issues again: pretty much every games journo in the world that gets an audience with MS insists on asking the same questions ("what do you think of the PS3 pricing?";) in the hope of getting some juicy "he said / she said" headlines. If I worked for MS and someone asked me about Sony pricing, I'd be having a field day with it too.
    Edited by 1 at 31/05/06 @ 00:50

  • Mordum #76 6 years ago

    @Arwin

    "What I would like to ask these MS guys though is if they really care about choice, then why not simultaneously release a BluRay add-on, eh?"


    Certainly can't argue with the logic in that statement... I'm sure if Blue-Ray does win out, then they will release a Blue-Ray add-on (and quietly stop production on the HD-DVD add on drive).
    But personally I don't care for any of the new formats at the moment, Blue-Ray or HD-DVD. If and when I do take an interest in jumping for one, I'll be getting a stand alone player not using a games console for my movies.

    As far as the gaming side of it goes... we'll just have to wait and see how important Sony's advantage in that area (Blue-Ray) pays off. Obviously theres no doubt that at some point in the future all games will need larger capacity, I honestly can't see it becoming an absolute necessity right away though. Of course I may be proved very wrong, just have to wait and see what games the 360 and Wii owners miss out on.

  • JediMasterMalik #77 6 years ago

    This has nothing to do with the 360 hardware wonga. It has to do with what Rein said about disk space and usage. If you are willing to take his word on the 360 being a good machine, then you should also beleive him when he says that DVD isn't enough.

    And everyone keeps using Oblivion as an example. Why? They simply reuse textures and meshes over and over again, as is evident by their CS. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this but with more space surely the number of textures and meshes could be increased to allow for more variety. I love Oblivion, but when every dungeon and cave looks almost exactly the same, it gets a bit boring. I haven't played the game in weeks. Even Morrowind had more variety only the textures and meshes were not of as high quality, and not as large on a DVD/CD.

  • Drakron #78 6 years ago

    The Xbox 360 have a near fatal flaw ... it lacks a HDD and uses standart DVD players, its gives it the same issue that the PS2 had.

    That is the reason why some PC games will be easier to have a PS3 version that a Xbox 360 version, MS forgotten that game developers are not going to develop a game with a HDD as requirement, they always going to work for the basic system.

    MS can help the issue by making the HDD standart and offering HDD to everyone with a core system (or making HD-DVD the standart player and offering a replacement).

    But, again, having a technological superior system does not make then a better option for the consumer as the PS2/DS have show.

  • speedstars13 #79 6 years ago

    Xbox360 is awesome. Awesome as like Vista.

  • thinktank #80 6 years ago

    @Jedimastermalik

    Your basing alot on one coment made by one designer at one development house, especialy when he was speculating on the future.

    But then again you lot beleived in the emotion engine, the broadband revolution the PS2 would offer and the cutting edge next gen games that never realy came until over year into the machines life cycle.

    O well you keep telling every one what "WILL" or "COULD" happen, meanwhile ill go and pre order Gears of War.

  • floppylobster #81 6 years ago

    Bad move to say we're not going to drop our price. Microsoft, this is your short window of opportunity to take hold and expand into the market. Not a chance to make a few extra bucks.

    With the extra space on Blu-Ray discs developers can get even lazier and really push those load times back to the good ol' days of the spectrum.

    My Microsoft spell-checker keeps telling me Blu-Ray is not a valid word. How petty are you going to get MS?

  • admir #82 6 years ago

    kangarootoo
    there is one in my first comment if you have read it i can write a book why i hate MS it goes all the way back.

  • JediMasterMalik #83 6 years ago

    Actually, ThinkTank, I wasn't much of a gamer back then. I really had no expectations of the PS2 at all. It was the combination of PC and PS2 games that got me into gaming seriously. Or "hardcore" gaming as some may put it. ;)

    And I'll get GoW for my PC. :)

  • reality_cheque #84 6 years ago

    Why would you reduce your price if your nearest competitor is £150-200 more expensive? Drop the price of the games, then when the PS3 games come out at £60 or whatever because they're on blu-ray discs your £40 per game will look good.

  • neuroniky #85 6 years ago

    Blu Ray and games: already stated elsewhere, however, the Gran Turismo dev team also made statements that it was hard to have chapter 4 on a single DVD, and to have chapter 5 on a single DVD with Hi-Def textures will be much more hard. This actually makes a lot of sense. Textures optimized for 1080i should actually occupy 4+ times the space occupied by 480i optimized textures. Compression reduces the difference in space occupied, but in any case they will be significantly bigger. If you take as examples three games that have a "next-gen" approach that are available on a PC (Tomb Raider Legend, GRAW, Oblivion), you'll see that all of them could use better textures on higher resolutions (remember that a 1080i tv set could run resolutions up to 1920x1080), and they already take around 8GB of HD space on a PC. Also, remember the reaction we all had when first they introduced the CD format to the PC a lot of time ago: back then we had games spanning on multiple 3.5" floppies (usually up to 4-6), and passing to a format that could accomodate hundred of floppies seemed ridiculous. Same happened when they introduced the first DVD games. Now Oblivion on CD would occupy... don't know, around 10/12 CDs? Think about it...

    The problem with disc swapping is twofold: if you have an RPG or an adventure that you can actually split on multiple disc with changes happening only at set point in the story (like Resident Evil 4 on GC, or all the old Final Fantasy on PS1), then that would not be a concern. But, if the content is no easily splittable (Gran Turismo, Ureal Tournament both applies to this category), you'll have to continue swapping between levels. And this will lead to the other side of the problems: disc swapping leads to more hardware failures, since something you're expected to do, i.e. 1000 times in the life of the console may become 10+ times more (the whole theory behind hardware manufactoring is that you create something that won't fail for 95 or 98, or 99, whatever you decide, users, measuring, among others, the number of uses you can have of a single component before having a failure). This was one of the reasons that made the PS1 drive so unreliable (that, and pirated games).

    So, while I'm not a supporter of the pricing policy of Sony, beware. Bluray or HD-DVD mayl be needed sooner than you think.

  • Les #86 6 years ago

    “Sony are now making people pay an extra few hundred pounds for a Blu-Ray DVD drive which we don't know is going to be the standard in the next-generation DVD formats"

    And that from a company that for years is forcing the average PC buyer to pay an extra few hundred pounds for their PC...

  • Captain-nippon #87 6 years ago

    god you people are so fucking stupid. MS is trashing Sony from left to right, head to rear and everything in between...

    remember the PS 2? the game console with the DVD player build in? Guess what Sony sold over 100 millions units...

    So how come gates and his groonies didn't bash sony for their innovation back in 2001. Why? because MS was copying Sony with their DVD add on... Guess what happened? Sony remain the #1 and MS is still looking for a second chance.

    Sony Build in Blu Ray and MS add on HD DVD driver. History tend to repeat itself.

    Apparently, the x360 will be MS last console, Nintendo Wii will storm the world and PS 3 will be sony best console ever, until the PS 4 comes out of course.





  • MyPointIs #88 6 years ago

    Yes ... so much for the "leaders don't react" comment, eh?

  • #89 6 years ago

    /Having too much fun playing Table Tennis.
    /Laughs at these stupid arguaments, all of which I have heard 20 times before.

    Go suck a nut PS3 fanbois. The thing isn't even out yet.

    Sure I don't particularly like MS (being an Apple user for some 6 years now), but I do like the 360. Whoever called it the xbox 1.5 is a total dumbass, it is clearly a generational step beyond (and this is from experience form both formats.

    Sure I can see some advantage to BR for games:
    Less compression freeing up CPU cycles to do more crucial things
    But I can also see dissadvantages:
    Greater cost; longer development.

    And when asked, Sony didn't justify the price of the console due to the need for the BR drive for games - thay said "Cheap considering you get a BR player" - so if that doesn't reveal their true intentions I don't know what does.
    Right now, for me, I see absolutely no merit in HD-DVD or BR - even though I own a HD TV. Whan a format becomes that standard, has a large catalogue of titles and ha cheap (reasonable) dedicated players out there that is when I will adopt.

    /Again, laughs at all the Sony fanbois who haven't even experienced the fun of the titles on 360.
    /Goes back to play Table Tennis (well, after work!).

  • EGBartonFink #90 6 years ago

    @admir why do you wanna know? if you know their history you wouldn't ask that stupid question.

    LOL - nah just wondering if it was the usual bandwaggon blind hate or a more informed hate. From your reply I suspect the former rather than the later. I suggest going and actually reading some of their history maybe then you might actually be able to give a reason. Take the blinkers off.

  • SlackMaster #91 6 years ago

    @ JediMasterMalik

    Where and when did they say this then?

    The last I read according to Steve Allison of Midway, the company that will be publishing the game for Epic, the game is already under development and due sometime in late 2006 for xbox 360. He went on record in an interview with XBOX360 Magazine saying about the game 'there will be no let up in the Unreal machine on the 360', saying that 'fans will be blown away by the next generation gameplay, modifiability and visuals that epic's Unreal Engine 3 technology will bring to the franchise'.

    If it weren't comming to 360 why would he say this?
    Edited by 1 at 31/05/06 @ 09:26

  • 3william56 #92 6 years ago

    Actually, Sony are subsidising gamers entry into the next gen of DVD not the other way round. As has been pointed out many times, the PS3 can be looked at either as a high spec games machine with a Hi Def DVD player for free, or a cheap Hi Def DVD player with a games machine for free. Either way, it's Sony handing out the subsidies and we win. What's not to like? If you can't afford it - tough. I can't afford a Ferrari, and I'm not whinging.

    Sticks hand up. I'm buying one.

  • drumbaby #93 6 years ago

    If/ when Microsoft decide that bigger discs are indeed required to keep up with future PS3 games, they may very well (Micro)soften on this issue....

  • ozgamer #94 6 years ago

    Typical Micro$h!t, bitching about their competitors to hide their shortcomings.

  • Les #95 6 years ago

    "Apparently, the x360 will be MS last console, Nintendo Wii will storm the world and PS 3 will be sony best console ever, until the PS 4 comes out of course."

    It's unlikely MS will ever quit the console business, unless Sony and/or Nintendo start using Windows as the OS for their next-next generation consoles.

    If the Wii will really be as cheap as reports suggest (I’ve read some estimates that put it below $200), and the remote really works, it might be the best selling next-gen console.

    PS3 will definitely be a better console than the PS2 but I doubt it will sell better. For the non-hardcore, €600 might be too high a price to pay (although the difference with the PS2’s original price is not that big if you factor in inflation. But most game journalists know little about economics). But the 360 will be €200 cheaper and it’ll be hard to convince the non-hardcore to lay out the extra cash for a machine that at first sight doesn’t appear to be more advanced.

  • Les #96 6 years ago

    "Sure I can see some advantage to BR for games:
    Less compression freeing up CPU cycles to do more crucial things
    But I can also see dissadvantages:
    Greater cost; longer development."

    Why would development be longer and cost more? High dev game assets that are compressed take as much time to create as high dev assets that are not compressed afterwards.

  • Kafeen #97 6 years ago

    Has anyone pointed out that Microsoft are doing the the same thing with Windows Vista? You're going to have to upgrade if you want to be able to play any DirectX 10 games, including Halo 2 on the PC.

  • Les #98 6 years ago

    "Has anyone pointed out that Microsoft are doing the the same thing with Windows Vista? You're going to have to upgrade if you want to be able to play any DirectX 10 games, including Halo 2 on the PC."

    Very true. But I keep wondering why this kind of business execs slamming each other only occurs in the console business. Has it something to do with the low average age of gamers?

  • Zuiyo #99 6 years ago

    VHS (note for younger readers: sort of like a cross between DVDs and "cassette tapes";)

    Instant classic :)

  • BartonFink #100 6 years ago

    As has been pointed out many times, the PS3 can be looked at either as a high spec games machine with a Hi Def DVD player for free, or a cheap Hi Def DVD player with a games machine for free. Either way, it's Sony handing out the subsidies and we win. What's not to like? If you can't afford it - tough. I can't afford a Ferrari, and I'm not whinging.

    I thought this post was rather telling even a Sony fan is referring to Blu-ray as a Hi Def DVD player (HD-DVD).
    As to the rest of it yup but it's supposed to be a games machine first.
    As I said previously they didn't unduly ask us to subsidise DVD with PS2. Why should this be any different? Surely the important thing here for Sony (from the Blu-ray perspective) is to get as many people to adopt the format as possible. Overpricing the damned thing in comparison to it's equivalent competitor is not the way to do that. Granted the inital shipments will sell out at that price, you could probably double it and it still would, but after that they have to drop the price. Even the Japanese are put off by the price. The crux of the whole thing is the machine is either a) and expensive bastard to manufacture b) Sony want to keep their losses on the console to a minimum c) they are taking the piss and know people will buy it regardless of price/specs/etc and hoping people will buy their Blu-ray bullshit lines.

  • JediMasterMalik #101 6 years ago

    @SlackMaster

    UE3 is an engine which is being used by many game develoeprs. Not just the developers of UT2007. As of yet the GAME UT2007, isn't coming to xbox360. That could, and may change but that's not the point. UT2007 runs off of the very powerful Unreal Engine 3.0 (UE3) which as said earlier is only a games engine. If he said that the xbox360 will be supported by the UE3 engine, he wasn't exactly saying something original. We all know Gears of War is coming to the 360 first and it too is based on the UE3 engine.

    By saying the Unreal Machine, he means using unreal engine, not necessarily UT2007.

  • Penguinzoot #102 6 years ago

    Sony have said that the lifecycle for PS3 will be 10 years, in which case you can see that Blu-Ray is an obvious strategic bet for them.

    From Sonys point of view, it is entirely reasonable that over this 10 year period you could bet that yes, games probably will make use of all the space on the disk (possibly). And yes, over this 10 year period movies will be released on Blu-Ray and consumer demand for HDTV and Blu-Ray content will gain momentum and may even take over from DVD (possibly).

    It is clear that Sony wanted the whole Blu-Ray / HDDVD thing settled in before the original intended arrival of the PS3 .... that way they could easily establish the value of the PS3 (with some justification) "look, its a cheap Blu-Ray player!", "you can watch all these fantastic Blu-Ray movies!", "games can make use all of this extra space as well!".

    But Sonys timetable/strategy was upset by Microsoft forcing their hand early with the launch of the Xbox 360. Sony is now forced into launching their strategic product utilising Blu-Ray technology (PS3), earlier than planned, at a time when it is much harder to make a compelling case for the inclusion of the technology. Having been forced onto the market early, it is not as easy to convince people with those claims.

    Microsoft have repeatedly said that they do not believe HDDVD or Blu-Ray is siginificant *for gaming* over the lifecycle for the next generation of consoles. From Microsofts perspective it makes very little sense to include a device for which they believe there is NO compelling business case *at the moment* ..... 4-5 years time would be different ;-)

    But herein lies the crucial difference in approach. How Microsoft sees the next-gen lifecycle does NOT match how Sony sees it. By the time Sonys PS3 is half-way through its intended 10 year lifecycle, Microsoft will have already released the technically superior 3rd generation Xbox, which will contain either a HDDVD or Blu-Ray player as standard.

    And for those of you who think Microsoft have a vested interest in the winner of HDDVD/ Blu-Ray - they don't. MS do not make either HDDVD or Blu-Ray devices - MS really do not care who the winner is. I'm sure MS will be quite happy to include Blu-Ray in the next Xbox, if Blu-Ray turns out to be the winner.

    And for those of you that think this unlikely just remember that Sony and Microsoft are co-operative industry partners in more areas than they compete. They compete in the console space - that is all.

  • JediMasterMalik #103 6 years ago

    @ bartonfink - It's probably a mixture of the three, though they are definitely taking big losses on it.

    Why do people keep saying it is meant to be a games console first? Sure the other playstations were all games consoles, that doesn't mean that the PS3 HAS to be considered as only a games console. IF that is your reasoning behind it, then it seems very close minded. It's obviously not only a games console any more. It supports Linux for homebrew software. It allows internet browsing. It even has Keyboard and Mouse support for both the internet and maybe even games. On top of that, it plays BD movies (though people seem to dislike this feature for some reason). Doesn't seem like it's only a games console to me.

    Sony manufacture electronics products. They can make the PS4 a toaster wiith an attached Atari2600. I wouldn't complain, but I certainly wouldn't buy it. ;)
    i.e. Stop Complaining

  • BartonFink #104 6 years ago

    +1 on everything Penguinzoot

    with one possible caveat

    The next generation console in 5 yrs will include whichever transport medium becomes the dominant format, this may not be either format.

  • #105 6 years ago

    Why do people keep saying it is meant to be a games console first?

    Because it's called a PLAYstation.
    What do you play with? - games.

    Edit:
    Also +1 on penguin. I think it's clear that MS have a different hardware stategy to Sony. It's likely in 5 years' time well see the 3rd xbox which will have an absolute shitload of computing power, and will include the technology that proves itself in this generation (tilt sensor controllers, motions sensor controllers, HD DVD, Bluray etc.) It's a play safe strategy for MS (the wireless controller was a give, the DVD was, the on-line was, the controller was etc.) but just because you play safe, doesn't maen you don't have fun playing :)
    Edited by 1 at 31/05/06 @ 11:09

  • JediMasterMalik #106 6 years ago

    My point is that a name means nothing, hence the Wii. ;)

  • BartonFink #107 6 years ago

    You are kinda right and kinda wrong Jedi.

    The primary function of a PS3 is games.
    Linux is a red-herring and only in there like on the PS2 to get around tax.
    Blu-ray is a nice to have but totally unnecessary for most people.
    Internet browsing on a console hardly new again nice to have but you will be able to do the same thing on 360.
    KB&M support same again not much of a feature.

    Remember PS2 was pushed as a DVD player too.
    Linux was in there to get around tax.
    Edited by 1 at 31/05/06 @ 11:09

  • JediMasterMalik #108 6 years ago

    Yeh but this time Linux will be able to be used for Homebrew by everyone. AFAIK that wasn't possible on the PS2. With Keyboard and Mouse support, this should also be easier. Correct me if I'm wrong but won't the homebrew possibilities help Playstation 3 sales, by people who want to just mess with linux on PS3?

  • Penguinzoot #109 6 years ago

    @BartonFink.

    What you say is absolutely true .... we could be looking at the prospect of streaming / downloading everything by then (although a few things have to be in place first), or something else entirely.

    Harold Wilson said a week is a long time in politics .... Well, 5 years is a very, very long time in the IT world. Many, many things could change. ;-)

  • Tonka #110 6 years ago

    Because it's called a PLAYstation.
    What do you play with? - games.

    No, you press PLAY to watch your Blueray movie.
    ;)

  • BartonFink #111 6 years ago

    @Jedi - That very much depends on the Linux distro they put in there.
    I very much doubt that it's going to be very open and if you think Sony are going to allow you to run pretty much anything you want using Linux yer mad. It will in all likelyhood be very simplistic and only offer very basic functionality. Just enough to get around the aforementioned taxes. Sony have been very very vague about Linux on the PS3 but some people are building it up to be some holy grail of homebrew purely based on idle speculation on what it could do not what it will do. Then again I am also speculating.

  • JediMasterMalik #112 6 years ago

    Yeh barton, you are correct, I just hope that when they say they'll support Homebrew, they mean it. :)

  • Artemis_Matsas #113 6 years ago

    Ok, maybe a little off the subject, but here it goes:

    Show some respect for Betamax please! Betamax tapes are being used by all the proffesionals in the TV/Video industry. All the TV stations use Betamax tapes for their archives, and for a very good reason. Betamax has a far greater quality than VHS, and they last far longer than VHS too!

    /Goes back to his cave

  • #114 6 years ago

    Because it's called a PLAYstation.
    What do you play with? - games.

    No, you press PLAY to watch your Blueray movie.
    ;)

    Damn you saw the inconsistency in my testimnoy! Objection!
    umm.. er..
    MovieStation?

  • BartonFink #115 6 years ago

    @Jedi - Yeh barton, you are correct, I just hope that when they say they'll support Homebrew, they mean it. :)

    Same here but this is Sony we are talking about :)

  • Arwin #116 6 years ago

    I just read an interview with the Assassin's Creed guys (Nicholas Cantin and Alex Drouin). It's in Dutch, so translation mine:

    OPM: How's your experience with the storage media of the PS3, the HDD and the BluRay disc? And do you have any comparable experience with HD-DVD technology?

    M.M.: Our focus is 100% BluRay, so I cannot compare with HD-DVD. I can only say that the new BluRay discformat is truly awesome. The capacity is immense, and the Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to. And that's really important, because Data Streaming (OPMED: where the console constantly loads new data from disc) is truly the only way to push next-gen games to the limit. The Playstation 3 HDD is something that we have so far given less attention to, because it hasn't been certain all that long yet that it will be standard on every console. Decreasing load-times by copying a part of the game to the HDD is one possibility, though it doesn't matter all that much for a streaming game like ours. But there are tonnes of other applications, such as the possibility to as it were record your whole game, to be able to watch a replay of it later on. We intend to use the HD optimally, but how, I can't tell yet currently.
    Edited by 1 at 31/05/06 @ 12:29

  • JediMasterMalik #117 6 years ago

    Cool, nice find. Looks like it's more than just one developer who likes Blu-ray then. ;)

  • Les #118 6 years ago

    "From Microsofts perspective it makes very little sense to include a device for which they believe there is NO compelling business case *at the moment* ..... 4-5 years time would be different ;-)"

    That is the reason they give now, but is bullsh*t if you ask me (which I know you didn't). The only reason 360 comes with an 'old' dvd-player is that blue-ray and HD-DVD were not ready to use in the 360 last November. Having a headstart over Sony was all MS cared about.
    Edited by 1 at 31/05/06 @ 12:50

  • Les #119 6 years ago

    "I think it's clear that MS have a different hardware stategy to Sony. It's likely in 5 years' time well see the 3rd xbox"

    MS came soon with 360 only because they lost the current gen war. If they win the next time, Sony might be the one to speed up the next cycle. It has nothing to do with a 'different' strategy but with trying to turn a loss into a win. It's very expensive to develop and manufacture a new console and so the company that leads the market will never be the one to start the next generation, unless in anticipation of it's competitors. If they could have it their way, they'd love to have the generation cycles last as long as possible.
    Edited by 2 at 31/05/06 @ 13:04

  • Rash' #120 6 years ago

    I don't have any doubt Sony will be able to shift their initial 6 million consoles. It'll be more interesting to see if they are able to sell more before a price drop. I have concerns.

    As for High Def media storage I think it is nessesary. Microsoft are naturally trying to cloud the issue with the "forcing the consumers" angle. Many forget the implications it could hold for gaming and if the format Sony have chosen provens influencial then Microsoft will be ill placed to tackle the problem.

    However the thing most interesting me at the moment is the games Sony have planned for the launch and the future. I don't believe the japanese giant have placed all their cards on the table. Roll on TGS!

  • BartonFink #121 6 years ago

    @Arwin - Hmm regarding the data transfer rate being is way beyond what we are used to
    Huh I though it was only barely equivalent to a DVD drive?
    Hmmmm surely streaming data from the disk and onto the HDD would be a faster way of doing things.

    Something is just not adding up in that snippet you posted.

  • Penguinzoot #122 6 years ago

    "The only reason 360 comes with an 'old' dvd-player is that blue-ray and HD-DVD were not ready to use in the 360 last November. "

    Ummm... yes. So Microsofts choice was to go to market last year, at which time they had a clear technical advantage, but without an HD drive (which didn't exist yet), or wait for the outcome of the Blu-Ray/HDDVD debate when their competitors will have a product on the market .... Bit of a no-brainer that!

    "Having a headstart over Sony was MS cared about."

    Getting a headstart over your competitors is always good ... (although it does come with with an obvious downside. I.e. your product may look dated when compared against your newly arrived competitors products).

    If you can wrongfoot your competitors by getting to market first, even better. If you can upset their timetable/plans/strategy at the same time, even better++.

    This is true for any company, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo included. This is business, after all.

  • JediMasterMalik #123 6 years ago

    They may have gotte in first, but many people agree that they rushed the 360. Considering the problems they've had with the hardware.

  • BartonFink #124 6 years ago

    Over exagerated by all accounts it's no different than any other fisrt batch of consumer electronic device. Problems yes (I haven't had any) but that's normal and apparently well below the average. Was it rushed? Don't think so.

  • Les #125 6 years ago

    @ Penguinzoot

    The only thing I'm saying is that MS valued having a headstart over including a HD-dvd drive and of course that's a business decision. But I don't believe them when they say they think HD will not be significant during this lifecycle, that's just marketing crap. They just think it less significant than the headstart.

    I don't agree being first to market is always good, but coming late without significant advantages (technological, brand, etc.) over your competitor's product is always bad.
    Edited by 1 at 31/05/06 @ 13:39

  • #126 6 years ago

    "They may have gotte in first, but many people agree that they rushed the 360. Considering the problems they've had with the hardware. "

    Most. Tired. Arguament. Ever.

    @ Les - how are you so sure? You seem to know the ins and outs of both Sony and MS's hardware strategies - do you work for them or something?
    Look at how quickly MS are dropping the old xbox. In 5 years' time who knows what technology will be out there that the companies can exploit. It's not like the old xbox has been around much longer than 5 years.

    Edit: Consider this: HD DVD wins the format 'war'.
    Edited by 1 at 31/05/06 @ 13:42

  • BartonFink #127 6 years ago

    @Les - I don't agree being first to market is always good, but coming late without significant advantages (technological, brand, etc.) over your competitor's product is always bad.
    Sony are in big trouble then :)

  • Les #128 6 years ago

    @ jamesphilp

    Please read one of my earlier posts. MS drops xbox so fast because it lost in the current gen, not because of the technological advancements they want to implement. A new machine costs money, using an existing product as long as possible is almost always economically more profitable (R&D costs spread over more units/longer time, time to optimize production, etc.).

  • Les #129 6 years ago

    @ BartonFink

    That might well be the case. In the end, its consumers who decide whether a certain feature is significant or not...

  • Penguinzoot #130 6 years ago

    Not disputing the hardware problems at all, which in any case have been reported in these forums as well as elsewhere, as comparable to the industry average.

    Merely stating that MS has adopted a business strategy which may (or may not) work out. Same as Sony. Same as Nintendo. Same as BP, Shell, General Motors or anyone else. Business is business.

    Time will tell.

    When a company like Microsoft enters a new market with an already established market leader (in our case Sony), the new boy has to work much harder to compete and catch up. Thats basic business.

    It also means taking every advantage you can to de-rail the opposition. It is also NOT about the short term. It is about the long term. If you make a business decision in that scenario that means shorter hardware lifecycles to wrongfoot your competitors, then that is what you do. You out-compete.

    I don't think it is likely we will have to wait 10 years for Xbox3, maybe 5 years? By the time PS4 turns up, we will probably be looking at Xbox4.

    We'll see if E3 2010 proves me wrong ;-)



  • #131 6 years ago

    Les,

    The xbox took MS from 0% to around 30% market share. - Yeah a real loss.
    I don't think MS had any allusions to think that the xbox would ever surpass the PS2.

    And going by your own logic then - if the 360 is not good enough for this gen - then you would expect to see the xbox 3 in 5 years right??

    EDIT: penguin, once again, +1
    Edited by 1 at 31/05/06 @ 14:00

  • Les #132 6 years ago

    "I don't think it is likely we will have to wait 10 years for Xbox3, maybe 5 years? By the time PS4 turns up, we will probably be looking at Xbox4."

    If 360 beats ps3, MS will not hurry to introduce xbox3, so it might be more than 5 years. But then Sony will probably hurry ps4 and it will be there well before 10 years. EVERY business hopes it's product's life-time to be as long as possible, so while MS may anticipate 360 to last only 5 years, if they can get an extra 1 or 2 years out of it, they surely will.
    Edited by 1 at 31/05/06 @ 14:10

  • BartonFink #133 6 years ago

    @Penguin - man you talk sense.

    @Les - as james said a jump from 0 to 30% of market share is hardly a failure. MS used Xbox to get the machine established as a recognised brand and to get an installbase i.e. springboard for phase 2. They have made no secret that they were not expecting to win anything last time around just get themselves established in the console industry. Guess what job done.

  • Les #134 6 years ago

    "And going by your own logic then - if the 360 is not good enough for this gen - then you would expect to see the xbox 3 in 5 years right??"

    That's exactly what I said.

    @ BartonFink

    Going from 0% to 30% is an achievement (don't have the numbers on PSone, but I guess that one went from 0% to over 50%...). Maybe they didn't expect to win but they sure as hell wanted to. But that's not really my point. If Xbox would have beaten PS2 (however unlikely, but so was the win of PSone over Nintendo and Sega), 360 wouldn't have been around last November. The fact that PS2 was more successful speeded up the introduction of 360, that's all I'm saying. And that's a sane decision by MS, I'm not attacking them or something.

  • #135 6 years ago

    "And going by your own logic then - if the 360 is not good enough for this gen - then you would expect to see the xbox 3 in 5 years right??"

    That's exactly what I said.

    And so where were you standing with regards to the issue at hand - that of the bluray drive?
    It seems you're agreeing with me but sort of not?
    I think that even if 360 is in front by 2010 MS may launch another console - how could they not if HD-DVD/BluRay become really commonplace (something that I personally doubt)? Maybe that is where we differ in opinion?
    Edited by 1 at 31/05/06 @ 14:23

  • Les #136 6 years ago

    @ jamesphilp

    I think Sony would be stupid not to equip PS3 with blu-ray, as it can help them establish their format. The high price point is a disadvantage but the extra storage capacity will surely be a plus for HD gaming. But they will have to convince the consumers that the advantage justifies the higher price. We'll see if they succeed.

    I don't think we disagree that much but the point of what I'm saying is that MS would rather introduce xbox3 within 6+ years than within 5. So they hope to win this generation without a HD-dvd drive and if that's the case, they want it to last as long as possible. If PS3 is the victor, xbox3 will be released earlier (and PS4 will be released rather quickly if 360 wins).
    Edited by 2 at 31/05/06 @ 14:31

  • Penguinzoot #137 6 years ago

    @Les

    "If 360 beats ps3, MS will not hurry to introduce xbox3, so it might be more than 5 years."

    360 beat PS3? Hmmm..... don't think I'll bet on that one!

    One thing though .... While you can understand the hardware vendors wanting to stretch out the life of their consoles for a few more years, to get their return on investment, this doesn't seem to be Microsofts style at all - and I'm not just talking about the console space here.

    Even if Microsoft were at the top, I don't think it would slow them down.... probably the opposite TBH. Having a leadership position would allow them to take the opportunity "re-energise their vision" about what console gaming is all about ..... and expand it out into the rest of the home ... and the phone! ... and the car!...and the train, the garage, the shed, the fishtank - anywhere really! The possibilities are endless!

    LOL! Laughing at my own jokes, thats bad :-)

  • 2099net #138 6 years ago

    +++ And everyone keeps using Oblivion as an example. Why? They simply reuse textures and meshes over and over again, as is evident by their CS. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this but with more space surely the number of textures and meshes could be increased to allow for more variety. I love Oblivion, but when every dungeon and cave looks almost exactly the same, it gets a bit boring. I haven't played the game in weeks. Even Morrowind had more variety only the textures and meshes were not of as high quality, and not as large on a DVD/CD. +++

    That's the point everybody is making. Oblivion only uses half of a DVD's storage because it's too expensive in labour and time to actually create gigabyte after gigabyte of textures. Oblivion is a good game. It may not be perfect, but as a sandbox game, it's a good programming achievement. But even with all the possibilities the "world" offers, from interactions to quests to physics to combat, the actual game logic, while no doubt complex and timeconsuming to code, will only take up a small fraction of the disc. The rest is speech and graphics. And then, the creators stopped creating not because they ran out of storage space, but because they didn't have enough resources available internally. I believe, but could be wrong, every building in Oblivion is unique and handcreated. That alone would be a monumental task, especially creating the cities.

    So who exactly is going to create all these environmently lush game worlds? Game creation for the PS2/Xbox generation of consoles already runs into millions of dollars for top-tier titles. Is any development house realistically going to increase these costs expodentially creating scaled down worlds with unique high-definition textures, thousands upon thousands of 3D sculpts and hundreds of thousands of words acted and sampled. And then of course, all of this not only has to be designed, created and implemented, but tested.

    Blu-Ray will be used for two things. And two things only. Prerecorded Hi-Def visual movies - either for cut scenes, "DVD style" extras (I'll imagine a lot of PS3 games will come with making-of documentaries built-in), or soundtracks.

    It's possible one of two games may be released after the first few years that do make use of the storage to actually enhance the in-game environment like most people here are imagining. (And I use the words "few years" because this is how long it would take to truely create such an environment).

    But when they do, other consoles will be quite capable of doing the same on multiple discs. Perhaps, the 360 version will require a HDD so some of the common code can be written to the console.
    Edited by 1 at 31/05/06 @ 15:05

  • Les #139 6 years ago

    "One thing though .... While you can understand the hardware vendors wanting to stretch out the life of their consoles for a few more years, to get their return on investment, this doesn't seem to be Microsofts style at all - and I'm not just talking about the console space here."

    Guess you're referring to Windows here. But that’s a different ballgame (MS doesn’t have to invest in hardware development but the vast majority of Windows copies is sold bundled with new PC’s, so each new Windows version will require a more powerful PC so that people have to buy a new one). My bet is that when (not ‘if’) an xbox console gets a dominant marketshare, MS will get out of the hardware manufacturing market and focus on what it does best: selling (not ‘developing’) software. And then they would try to shorten the console life cycles.
    Edited by 2 at 31/05/06 @ 15:05

  • JediMasterMalik #140 6 years ago

    Oblivion only had a single very short CG cut-scene. Console games tend to have more CGI. The fact is that 1080 CGI takes ALOT of disc space. For games which say even have only half an hour of total CGI, that's alot of disc usage. They'll need to get the rest of the game in aswell.

  • 2099net #141 6 years ago

    +++ Oblivion only had a single very short CG cut-scene. Console games tend to have more CGI. The fact is that 1080 CGI takes ALOT of disc space. For games which say even have only half an hour of total CGI, that's alot of disc usage. They'll need to get the rest of the game in aswell. +++

    But these are SuperConsoles! They are capable of "cinimatic realism" with their graphics (to quote Sony). No game created on a 360 or PS3 SHOULD need pre-rendered CGI cut-scenes, they should all be capable of being rendered using the in-game graphic engine.

    I know Oblivion cheats by using its CGI to show a range of environments without having to load the data, but its just an attract mode. Even games like Final Fantasy on the PS3 should be able to tell the story using the game engine.

    Do you really want to pay for a Blu-Ray drive just to get longer attract mode films or endless none interactive cut-scenes interrupting your gameplay? I'm sorry, but excess CGI isn't a selling point for me. In fact, FMV is the worst thing IMO to happen to gaming since the CD came out as a storage device for games. I don't want to watch movies when I play a game. I've got DVDs for that. (and will have a Hi-Def DVD player if I want to see them in HD)
    Edited by 2 at 31/05/06 @ 15:42

  • JediMasterMalik #142 6 years ago

    Have you seen the intro to Onimusha 3 O_o It's awesome. lol

    Anyway yeh you have a point, when they showed the FF13 trailer everyone assumed it was CG, then Square said it was real-time and people were amazed. Maybe FMV won't be used in games anymore, though I still think with such larger textures and higher polygon counts they may still manage to use more space than a DVD pretty soon.

  • #143 6 years ago

    Gah, I hate CGI, and everything 2099net has said makes a lot of sense to me.

    I think it's true - oblivion gets banded around, not because it's huge, but it represents about the pinnacle of development effort in a game (in terms of hand-crafted world) and still didn't fill a DVD9. How long was it in development for anyway? - Like 3 years?

  • 2099net #144 6 years ago

    Has anyone ever tried to fill a gigabyte on their PC's hard disc with graphics? As in actual, flat, single layered, graphics?

    By my calculations you can get approx 4,500 digital camera images in a gigabyte at a resolution of 3504 x 2336 pixels and with minimal to medium jpeg compression. Allowing 4GB of a 9GB DVD, thats about 18,000 camera images (or 147,336,192,000 pixels)

    And that's without the efficient compression modern consoles have (and you're going to need anyway just to get the textures to work on the limited RAM available) which could probably, in effect, quadrupile the raw data available for storage ( so thats now 90,000 camera images at least - and remember this is just for 4Gb of disc space!), the fact that the textures don't need to be 24-bit true-colour, the fact that if they are going to be used in a game, each and every texture will need to be actually physically sourced and/or created. Textures don't just grow on trees (unless, you want a bark texture... :) but even then it will have to be photographed and/or created a number of times, the best picked out and graphically manipulated). In addition, for each unique object the texture is to appear on, it will have to be manipluted to best fit. Creating a texture isn't just getting a flat image and slapping it on as is on a complex 3-dimentional model. It will also need testing and presumably various amounts of human touch-ups and processing into to look its best at least once in the development cycle.

    Which software house is (a) going to have the manpower to do that? (b) want to spend the time to do "Amazing World Shooter" properly when they're already thinking of the sequel "Amazing World Shooter 2" (to get a return on their propriety game engine) and (c) have enough cash reserves to actually feel confident on getting a return on their development costs doing it in the first place?

    All Blu Ray will be used for is FMV and/or music.
    Edited by 2 at 31/05/06 @ 17:10

  • #145 6 years ago

    Hmm, the RAM issue - don't both the 360 and PS3 have the same RAM - i.e. 512MB?

    I was thinking about the most uncompressed image files - RAW images. Those things are HUGE. I can't remember exactly, but I think you gat like 30-odd RAW images on a 1GB card. Compression is surely the way to go for textures.

    I mean, oblivion may have been REALLY big if they'd got each individual npc to have a different voice. The voices do get a bit samey, but you have to wonder if there's enough time, money and people out there to do this work. - Why pay 100 actors to do 100 voices, when you can pay 5?

  • Les #146 6 years ago

    "All Blu Ray will be used for is FMV and/or music."

    Time will tell.

    One of the advantages of more storage space that publishers have stated is the ability to ship one disk to all regions, thus reducing production cost.

    I actually have no clue how much of the disk space current gen games occupy. But one big game that might profit from the extra space is GTA4. Imagine even more radio stations with cd-quality 5.1 audio instead of compressed files! True, it's not 'real' game content, but it surely adds to the atmosphere.

    As for studio's not being able to fill up the disk space because it would take too much time, that might be the case. But to look at current games as the proof is not really fair. Those games started development with a clear boundary to storage space in mind: the size of the regular DVD. I think it's underestimating the creativity of the developers. Till now, games have always found ways to fill up the various new disk formats.

  • JediMasterMalik #147 6 years ago

    Blu-Ray also has other advantages, such as the difficulty with which it is copied and its damage protection. This is why it is backed by most movie studios.

  • #148 6 years ago

    Small point on a hopefully dead thread:

    One of the advantages of more storage space that publishers have stated is the ability to ship one disk to all regions, thus reducing production cost.

    Great, so we're going to have to wait for them to not only translate the games into every european language, but also japanese etc. Can't wait for that!

    This is why it is backed by most movie studios.

    What do you define as 'most'? Back this claim up. The fact that Sony own a huge movie studio (and record label etc - yes the evidence for the reaons behind the DRM stack up) has nothing to do with this fact I guess?

  • tingletanglebob #149 6 years ago

    Why should people pay an extra 150 pounds over a 360 just so some lazy bollicks can fit six different languages onto a blue disc hardly much advantage for people with ps3s, the release dates are still going to be the same for the game. If I was going to pay that much i would want something that would be more advantagous for me like extra ram. I will happly stick with 360 for now games look just as good as ps3 from what ive seen.

  • Les #150 6 years ago

    "Great, so we're going to have to wait for them to not only translate the games into every european language, but also japanese etc. Can't wait for that!"

    As I clearly stated, it's an advantage from the publishers' viewpoint. And befriending publishers is quite important in the video games market. But the ability to have multiple audio tracks on a single dvd can be an advantage (big or small depends on your personal preferences) to consumers also: you may have the choice between orignial voice acting or a dub in your own language. I don't think reduced production costs will lead to lower consumer prices, but maybe they will not rise as much as otherwise would be the case. As for the time that translation will take, Europe is almost always the last teritory in which a game will be released, so for us nothing will change.

    "I will happly stick with 360 for now games look just as good as ps3 from what ive seen."

    If you've already seen finished PS3 games in action, than this might be a valid point. Otherwise, it's just speculation. But given that most games will be available on both platforms, we will probably see the same as in this gen, that games are made to run well on the console with the lower specs and will not take advantage of all the power in the higher spec machine.

    If you already have a 360 then also shelling out for a ps3 may not be worth it, but for people that don't, for the price of a 360 plus a bit more, you get a console with (a little?) more power, a high dev dvd player, wifi and a big hd, with hopefully some free space left that you can actually use. It's a personal choice whether or not you think the added features justify the higher price. If PS3 sells slow, Sony will obviously have made a mistake. Can't wait till November!