MP criticises Rockstar's Bully
Asks Tony to consider ban.
Following a record dry spell during which no Rockstar games were the subject of any controversy for approximately 18 minutes, Labour MP Keith Vaz has hauled Bully into the spotlight for its representation of violence against schoolchildren.
Speaking in parliament yesterday, Vaz asked Commons leader Geoff Hoon: " Do you share my concern at the decision of Rockstar to publish a new game called Bully in which players use their on-screen persona to kick and punch other schoolchildren?"
And he didn't stop there: "Will you ask the prime minister to refer this video to the British Board of Film Classification? If they don't make any changes will the government use its powers to ban this videogame?"
Hoon replied that Rockstar has yet to submit the BBFC for rating, adding that the exact contents of the game - "disturbing as they sound" - are "not yet known."
However, there is already a screenshot doing the rounds that depicts a shaven-headed, fingerless youth kicking a poor unfortunate up the backside - and it's likely that this is what has got Vaz riled.
It's also angered Liz Carnell, director of the charity Bullying Online. "Our view is that bullying is not a joke. It is not a suitable subject for computer games," she said, adding that an 18 rating wouldn't stop children from getting their hands on the game.
But ELSPA director general Roger Bennett reckons it's too soon to start talking about a ban: "Every game published in the UK carries an age rating on the box, providing guidance to ensure that consumers can make informed choices when buying games, in the same way as one would buy a film or take guidance on post-watershed TV viewing.
"As Mr Vaz knows, any game can be automatically referred to the BBFC for a rating. It is disingenuous to suggest any game be banned when the content has yet to be finalised."
Rockstar's response was as follows: " We support and admire the groups who are working hard to address the long-standing problem of bullying. We all have different opinions about art and entertainment, but everyone agrees that real-life school violence is a serious issue which lacks easy answers.
"Bully is still a work-in-progress, but when it's finished we believe most people will agree it offers an exciting experience and tells an engaging story.
"More and more people are beginning to recognise that the stories in video games have as many themes and plotlines as books and movies. Just as books aren't judged by their covers, videogames shouldn't be judged by their titles or individual scenes."
This isn't the first time Vaz has taken on Rockstar - last year he raised questions in the Commons after 14 year old Stefan Pakeerah was murdered by an older friend who was said to have been influenced by Manhunt.
At the time, Tony Blair said the issue of videogames classification was "worth looking closely" at the issue of videogames classification but that the UK had "Europe's strongest system for controlling the sale of computer games that are not suitable for children."
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Comments (107) Latest comment 6 years ago
Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!
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first tho!
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second!
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That might be true but it still doesn't work!
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... or is it just mi'old age??
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@ Merefield - No, I totally agree with you. It's not old age (although I am starting to creak in my joints too!), I think it's morals and ethics. Don't see many of them these days, although when I was a boy........
/sucks on Werthers Original and gently sways back and forth in rocking chair/
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Considering some kids commit suicide because they're bullied, can't Rockstar find some other controversial subject to make a game out of... or better still can't they make a game that ISN'T in some way controversial?
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Of course, it could all be smoke and mirrors by Rockstar. Perhaps it's some game where you have to bravely fight *against* the bullies... Somehow that doesn't seem so bad...
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For all we know, this game is some kind of revenge story where bullies and abusive teachers get bullied back, and I think I read something along those lines somewhere.
I also remember Rockstar stating once that they never included kids or pets in the GTA games precisely because they didn't think it was fun at all. I think they deserve a bit more moral credit than they're usually given (ok, just a bit).
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And if it remotely glorifies bullying I'd personally take a hard line with the game. Fitwers Meyide.
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We have a game classification system here to help ensure games don't fall into the wrong hands.
Does anyone think that Todd Solondz' movie Happiness should have been banned because it mentioned pedophilia? Or Aronofsky's Requiem for a Dream because it dealt with issues of heroin?
In my mind, movies and games should be treated the same. They are artistic expression and we shouldn't be censoring them unless we really have to.
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Bullying is not a subject for videogames, but murder's OK? Let's get some perspective, people!
In the words of a great man, WTF?
OK, here we go. If the game will be 18-rated, bollocks to worrying about kids getting hold of it. That is a problem for the parents and the retailers, not the developer. If bullying shouldn't be depicted in games, what about Hitman? Punisher (as mentioned above)? Any FPS ever?
Is bullying worse than murder? Fuck, no!
This stinks of political manouvering more than any actual concern for the kiddies little minds.
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Thing is, nobody knows what the game is actually about, I don't think R* are THAT daft.
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Not remotely interested in this game personally... the only stuff I've enjoyed out of Rockstar is the Max Payne games.
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Films/novels/comics all shocked and dismayed contemporary audiences, but were all eventually accepted in some form or another.
The main problem at the moment is that these titles are made for the purpose of pushing the boundaries, rather than any artistic value...but while there is a market what's to stop them from making them?
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......
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anyway, sorry if this was completely nonsensical......but these people piss me off. if they just ignored it and didn't give it so much publicity the game would never sell well in the 1st place.
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Lets just let the BBFC or ELSPA or whoever arte it when it comes out. If it's not suitable they will let Rockstar know - not some MP who knows nothing about video games and probably knows less about this game than I do (and that's not a lot).
LEAVE IT TO THE PROFESSIONALS!
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but to be honest, since the only good team out of R* is Rockstar North, no; I don't think this is going to be anything other than a piece of shit, just like manhunt.
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I'm afraid I agree with this one - personally I don't think there's any need for this kind of game.
You're on form today Fatfish!
Whether you like the premise of the game or not is not relevant. Banning the game outright, and preventing the people who do want to play it and are mature enough to interpret the content appropriately from ever seeing it just to appease your own goddamn morals is clearly the path to stupidity.
The game could be shit, and sure bullying in schools is bad etc, but that doesn't mean it should be pulled from the goddamn shelves. Thankfully in the UK we have a pretty decent ratings system. End of motherfucking discussion.
The silliest aspect of all of this is that most of the people screaming "ban this sick filth" don't know squat about the game apart from the title. Y'know, because it hasn't been release yet.
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That might be true but it still doesn't work!
I actually disagree. I think the British videogame system for classifying videogames works perfectly well. However, there is little the industry can do to prevent lazy / ignorant parents from undermining the system entirely.
I'm sure we've all seen the scenario: Dad is buying the latest GTA gorefest for little Johnny, and when advised of the adult content in the game by diligent sales staff the response is invariably "oh, but it's only a game". I wonder, what kind of fucked up shit do we need to start putting in games before parents get off their arses and start taking an interest in how their kids spend their time?
There some areas that could be done better... simple leaflets explaining the ratings system clearly and unambigiously to parents could be included with each sale for example. And, people like Rockstar / Take Two should be "encouraged" to market their games in a more responsible manner - for example, no more GTA ads on MTV, or in magazines where the average reader age is 8-16 years old.
Tons of typos edit.
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In the previews released so far it discribes a game in wich the character enters a school for juvinile criminals. A school run by a corrupt teachers and the player has to fight gangs and the teachers in order to climb up the social ladder. It's got nothing to do with real life bullying.
Rockstar doesn't make realistic games, they always present their worlds in a stylised comedy, often a bitt on the dark side but so far removed from any reality that it's silly to get upset about.
They could easely clear all this up by pointing that out but rather going with the mysteriouse "just wait untill the game is done and you'll see", as if they're talking on some forum to generate hype amongst gamers.
Obviously it'll sell allot of copies but does nothing to clear up the situation or putt the hyperbolic nonsense surrounding Rockstar to rest.
And they woulden't have it any other way. Great developer but their marketing team are a bunch of fucking cunts who think damaging the industrie and putting gamers in a dark light is a good way to sell games.
Well, fuck them.
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Meh, no point arguing taste with an Xboy, they think Halo is the best thing since sliced bread, rather than generic FPS no. 123235
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Bates, GTA1 was ace....on the PC. 4P dm was a real blast (not even mentioning the 'paralel worlds' thing that occured once in a while). Everything that followed was avarage and far from original. On top of that, the golden feeling from the original was gone. And it just got crappier and crappier after that. The sequels are some of the most overhyped titles in the history of games imo. It is an textbook example of sequelirites imo. Dont get me wrong, they arnt bad games. They just lack the golden feeling from the original and they are far to overhyped imo. Then again, id recon that thats just a matter of personal taste.
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and yes halo is overated
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Quite. I should also get to decide who I rob from, who I kill, where I walk around naked and I should be able to whack off in the middle of town in a Saturday afternoon if I see fit...
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Dont talk crap. Im all for people harming themselves if they wish. But smoking harms those around you. IMHO.. It's VERY selfish to smoke publically harming those around you, when they dont even get the benefits of said fag.
If you want to smoke, and enjoy it .. fine.. dont subject the rest of us to it.
I personally am addicted to alcohol, you dont see me leaving work for 15 mins every hour to have my beer fix. Nor do you see me wearing an alcohol patch. And even if i did.. i'm only hurting my oiwn health not others...
Public smoking ban = good thing.
Banning games which you CHOOSE to buy/play = nanny state = bad thing.
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Quote:
"Whether you like the premise of the game or not is not relevant.".
....er, yes it is. It's very fucking relevant - that's what the post is about - the moral implications of this game. Read the title of the thread!
Quote:
"Banning the game outright, and preventing the people who do want to play it and are mature enough to interpret the content appropriately from ever seeing it just to appease your own goddamn morals is clearly the path to stupidity."
So let me get this straight, you want to have the option of playing a game because the content (at least on initial inspection) appears to be immoral and controvertial? How else do you interpret this game - it's called BULLY for fuck sake?!? Are you telling me that as a 'mature' gamer, you are able to somehow elevate this to something more than it appears? Perhaps it's an expression of one's inner angst and ensuing struggle against the system?!? Fuck off you twat. On the basis that our assumptions about this game and it's gameplay are correct, this is nothing more than a crass and pathetic attempt to appeal to sick and impressionable individuals - not to mention scraping the bottom of the gaming genre barrel. To me, this is far from an entertaining prospect in the gaming calendar.
And if everyone was apparently like you mate, then no-one would have any fucking morals at all - so explain to me how appeasing not just mine, but several individuals morals on this forum leads to stupidty? Our whole fucking society is based on them - and it's by (almost) everyone adhering to them that we manage to keep this frail structure held together. I'm not some church going, right wing, anti-abortionist do gooder, I just know where to draw the line (or at least where I think it should be drawn). That is my view (which every one of us is entitled to have), and that was what I was expressing in my post above.
And don't ever try to justify an argument to me again by saying "End of mutherfucking discussion" as if you are the final word and everyone should bow to your opinion. Exactly how long did it take you to formulate a summary like that? It's obviously another well thought out and quantified point to your argument. You need to wind your neck in sunshine and learn some manners. I hope to god you never procreate, we could do with less people like you in the world.
/edit typos/
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Come to think of it, does Ubisoft have to rely on shock tactics to sell their games? If no, which developer is better regarded? Make no mistake - I am not dissing GTA in any way - I am just dissing Rockstar who are trying to make millions by slapping a taboo on every below-average product they come up with, and allow people like Jack Thompson to rattle against gaming in general. Are they doing us any favours?
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er... yeah.
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its not 'real' bullying at 'real' schools, its all about beating silverspoon toffs up at a school called Bullworths.
"Come hither Tomlinson-Smythe, i am going to box your ears you frightful cad"
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I wouldn't place too much worry in what he says, I doubt Tony is particularly keen to give him any public spotlight, as it'll highlight the fact he kept his job.
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that was a bully-sim, kick pupils, kick teachers, get other people blamed for stuff.
actually, that game was alright. now that the gfx are better is the concept wrong?
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Agree with Fatfish on this one, Rockstar need to get a grip and stop releasing games that add to social decline. How long till someone releases a fucking Chav game eh? Where you ram raid for tracksuits shiv ordinary people for their mobile phone and are against the clock till the post office shuts and you can't pick up your gyro?
When you're pissing off the people that supported you Rockstar you should know you've gone too far...
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I've never had any first hand experience of murder a la GTA but I was bullied like f8ck in school. Such is the nature of bullying, its something a lot of people can easily relate to so it’s not a case of it being better or worse than homicide. The thought of this game (should the content glorify bullying in ANY manner) in teenage chav hands makes my blood boil.
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Look beyond the name, its used for one simple reason: marketing, and as can be seen by the amount publicity its getting, its obviously working.
Should we ban Grange Hill because that often has bullying in it by the way?
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Can anyone else confirm?
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BAN THIS SICK FILTH etc etc
/hopes you can do links in comments...
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Psi - quote: "Rockstar need to get a grip and stop releasing games that add to social decline."
I couldn't have put it better myself - well said that man (sorry, I'm assuming you are a male?!?)
@ wobble - I see your point, but I think one major difference between Virtua Fighter Kids and this game is that this is clearly attempting to achieve a much higher level of realism. Not only is the premise of a bunch of honk-kong-fooey, magical-ninja kids duking it out in a ring a little far fetched, but the artistic style also distances it further from reality. The same can't really be said about Bully though.
@ Furbs - one other thing that comes to mind (and I think may have been mentioned in this thread already somewhere) is, if you were to take away the morally dubious elements of GTA that, in essence, make it so fun to play (effectively the entire gameplay), then what are you left with when you look at the graphical and technical content and achievements? Ok, so they were one of the first developers to release a (nearly) completely free roaming expansive and semi-realistic city, but that claim to fame was some time ago now. Since then, they have simply been releasing rehashes of the same concept (all be it slightly more polished or tweaked) told from different gang-land beginnings. Personally, I don't see this as innovation, so much as it is re-iteration.
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*These adult games should remain adult. Publishers need to stop pushing R18 games at youngsters, and parents need to be aware of what their children are playing in the same way that their TV and DVD habits are monitored.
*As adults living in the wonderful liberal paradise that is Europe, we are free to express ourselves in almost any way we like, and make art and entertainment products with this in mind. Rather than censoring our works for fear of them causing some sort of derranged or anti-social behaviour, we should look at tooling people with some sort of critical faculty so that they may think for themselves about such matters that may arise from the media that they may consume.
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Kiigan's initial response to my post was uncalled for and showed no consideration for me or my views (something I hope I do to others on this forum). To me, this is one of the highest forms of disregard - in essence, he was telling me to keep my opinions to myself as they were wrong and that he was right. There was no intellectual argument behind this, just statements. If anything, his tone initiated the aggressive approach. If someone treated me like that in the real world, then yes, I probably would react violently - despite our hectic and convoluted lives and all the issues that affect them, there is always time and space for consideration, respect for one anothers views and courtesy. Those that that don't show these traits do not earn my respect. I do have morals and I try to uphold them, but everyone has their limits - that is part of who I am and I'm only human.
Your point is well taken though and I will try to keep things civil in future.
@ Psi - likewise mate. 28 going on 12......sporadically interspersed with the morals of 60 year old!!
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"this continued until I turned 16 when suddenly 6'1" and 16 stone didn't seem like such an easy target to them anymore!"
Part of me rather hopes that you smacked some heads together at that point, but I am guessing from your later comments that you didn't, which makes you the better man
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I am as far from a Daily Mail reader as you could possibly get and I'm not even sure that I'm saying this game - SHOULD it glorify bullying in any sense - be censored by the government, the BBFC or some other body. But do I think its a good idea to have a game that glamorises bullying, allows you to control the actions of a minor (and we are talking about playing the role of a minor here) in a (relatively) realistic graphical setting? No I bloody don't, as whilst many adults could play such a the game and place it in an adult context, such a game would find its way into the hands of plenty of kids. And this could further trivialise bullying in the eyes of many younger folk. And that’s a bad thing.
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And any 15/18 films whilst we're at it. And cars can since kids can get a hold of keys. I went to Tescos and they dont sell knives to 18 year olds, but they can get a hold of them in the home. Whats your solution to those issues?
How do you *know* it glamourises bullying? Yeah if it comes out and you play a bully where you cant win the game without picking on some innocent child for no valid reason then I'll damn it with all the condemnation I can, but until we know the story, maybe its better to wait?
It was peoples preconceptions that got Sensi Softwares "Rock and Roll Star" game banned, even though they felt it would be one of the best games they had ever put out.
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I think this is at the root of all these type of discussions argument. I think there are two issues here.
1. Whether adult games should be censored on the basis that they may fall into the hands of minors.
2. Whether Rockstar should base their game marketing around controversy.
The first is a point of law and industry regulation. The second is a point of morals.
I am not suggesting that Rockstar should be forbidden in law from basing their marketing around the glamourisation of series issues and I don't think of the objectors present are either. But that doesn't mean we don't think it is a bit unreasonable and unfortunate all the same.
No we don't know what the content of the game actually is. But its extremely naive to think that their choice of publicly released screenshots was somehow coincidental. I don't see much social justice being metered out in their screenies, so whatever the final game storyline turns out to be, their marketing strategy is pretty clear.
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If you don't like it, don't buy it, it's simple. Get off your moral high horses FFS. Recently, I've shot around 400 Nazis in the face, slaughtered defenceless bands of peasants, and spent a few hours wandering around looking for Hispanics to kill with a bat. I might spend a few hours kicking some kid up the arse when this game comes out too. It's a computer game!
I know we're all vastly superior to your average peasant on this site, but do you honestly have so little faith in our society that you think this game will somehow make people think bullying is cool?
Edit for unneccessary use of swearing.
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I don't know Furbs if your question was aimed at me, but I have no solution to children that joyride, or carry knives to school., or watch films underage. Nor do I have a solution to this debate, I've already said I don't support censorship so that's not the stance I'm taking, I've already said its hypothetical as no-one knows the context of the game yet, but we are just having a debate ..... it is a forum after all.
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Errr.... did you actually read the posts here. I'm not sure your brand of anger is any more valid than anyone elses. Attacking those taking the high ground by shouting in a loud voice doesn't really help you make a point.
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And to be honest, the fact that you've felt the necessity to highlight that you've shot 400 Nazi's "in the face" (only goes to further the argument that that kind of content really does affect people in much more subtle ways than you may realise.
Without being too harsh about it, your comments have lead me to believe that you are actually one of these "average peasants" on this forum that you've written about and in fact fall far short of being "superior" to them! This isn't an argument about the maturity or intellect of other forum members.
@ kanga - I'm ashamed to say, yes I did once "smack some heads together". Thankfully it was the first and last time it ever happened because of bullying. That marked the end of it - and more worryingly, their acceptance of me in to their social circles. People's reactions changed quite dramatically toward me over night - it makes me sick to think that was what was required in order to break free of it. I guess some people only understand one thing, and when you've tried everything else, that's all you have left.
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How about - "its fun"?
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Okay, that last one might not be strictly relevant, but it's a good idea all the same.
Calling for a ban on something just because it's not suitable for children and because you, personally, find it offensive shows a pretty startling lack of perspective. You think that stealing someone's lunch-money in a game's more serious than blowing someone's head off, well, that's fine and dandy. Opinion. Yours. Entitled. Plainly the (perceived) content of the game won't be for you, so don't buy it. That's your right.
But hey - I'd appreciate it if you returned the favour and didn't try to force your prejudices, mores and morals on me.
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Couldn't you make the exact same argument concerning films or books? So, Platoon, Bridge On The River Kwai, Three Kings - Ban This Sick Filth?
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"If violence is constantly portrayed as normal on the television screen it will help to create a violent society" is one of her more famous quotes funnily enough. And not backed by any conclusive study.
Wow, she predicted societies relaxing of sexual attitudes? Hell an idiot could see that happening given she lived through the sixties.
So are you saying that any event where people have died should not be made in to entertainment, even if its totally fictional? If so, kiss goodbye to the gaming and film industry. I could be offended by a football game if my brother had died at Hillborough or Heysel.
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Thing is most teenage kids that play games don't have access to historical costumes and bayonetted rifles.
However if they play a game where the point of the game is to kick the living death out of the school mates sitting in your class, everythings on hand right there!
Come on, when i was at first school american wrestling came over to the UK and we all took part in kicking the living daylights out of eachother replicating the figure4 leglock the boston crab and anything else that would cause our class mates mild pain.
Basically if this is designed to be immitable by regular school kids and set in their daily surroundings it's not sending out the right message. And that message is....
....stop fucking around with fireworks sniffing glue keying my fucking car and throwing shit at my cats.... i know you know i can't lay a hand on you for legal reasons but if i find out where you live im gonna fucking kill your fatha!... sorry not sure what game caused that
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Whats next.. running round a hospital raping nurses??
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The argument about desensitisation to media is true in all forms. 20 years ago, Clockwork Orange was banned because of it's graphic imagery and because of it's political and anarchistic content. Not only is this now legal to buy over here, but it was recently shown on Channel 4 aswell - main stream TV. Rock and Roll when it first appeared was condemned as being the music of the devil and a disruptive and negative influence on the youth of that generation. It's now hailed as one of the greatest musical forms ever conceived. My argument is that not all desensitisation to media is a bad thing - but we do have to be careful not to become complacent about it and to make sure we still know where to draw the line. Ok, this is a slightly lighthearted take on it, but look at the Roman empire. Once on e of the greatest in the world - largely brought to it's feet by an incredibly decadent, immoral and hedonistic society that inwardly imploded over many years - not to mention the reduced gene pool due to incest and the sexually transmitted diseases spread through huge promiscuity!!
/edit typos/
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Clockwork Orange was never banned. Kubrick withdraw it, precisely because of the overreactive prejudice the film was about to receive.
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Which doesn't work at all!
Also to the people who say games like ManHunt and the like is worse, well you dont go around beating up defenseless kids, kidda a big difference, also if you think ManHunt is real then turn off the PC and get a life! Running round a school twating helpless dweebs is real life and happens, which isn't a funny matter.
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Worth repeating.
I don't think anyone arguing 'for' this game is 'on the side of rockstar' as they are undoubtedly damaging the reputation of gaming in return for profit, time and time again.
I'm an adult, the people making this game are adults. We are presuming it is aimed at a market of Adults. No one is being hurt in the making/marketing or distribution of this game. (It's not EA ;o) ) I object very strongly to another adult attempting to control anything that I do, as long as I am doing it within the laws of the society to which we all belong.
The issue is NOT that this shouldn't be made because kids could be adversely affected by playing it. If it's not legal for the kids to own/play it, but they manage to anyway then THAT is the Issue. IMHO obviously
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Either way, it still highlights the way the views and opinions of the public have changed over the years - and this is largely due to desensitisation through increased exposure to all forms of media and the huge increases in global communication over the past 20 or so years.
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You're asking for a game to be banned/censored/edited/whatever because it offends your morals. If you got your way, I wouldn't be able to play that game unexpurgated even if its content didn't bother me. Therefore, you're asking for legislation to force me to comform to your ethics. See?
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Big generalisation about kids thinking they are indestructable. My neice and nephews play all the video games imaginable (except 15/18 rated ones) and believe me, they dont go around inflicting violence on each other.
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"And to be honest, the fact that you've felt the necessity to highlight that you've shot 400 Nazi's "in the face" (only goes to further the argument that that kind of content really does affect people in much more subtle ways than you may realise. "
Don't talk rubbish. (Although I did have a hard-on while I was doing it...maybe I should see what shooting a kitten's like....)
Without being too harsh about it, your comments have lead me to believe that you are actually one of these "average peasants" on this forum that you've written about and in fact fall far short of being "superior" to them! This isn't an argument about the maturity or intellect of other forum members. "
It was a tongue in cheek statement, you overbearing smug twat. I was refering to many posters assumptions that while they, of course, will be able to see it's not for copying, the rest of the hoipoloi are just 'monkey-see, monkey-do' imbeciles, which they aren't.
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In which case, let's ban The A-Team. Aparrently, when you unload an assault rifle at somebody, all that happens is that dirt gets kicked up at their feet. Or, at the absolute outside, their jeep rolls over until the two swarthy-looking blokes inside have to clamber out looking slightly dazed.
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And the reason Paedophilia is not tolerated is because it affects people who are below the legal age of consent and so could therefore not agree, even if they wanted to. Since this is an 18 cert game, and therefore not aimed people in school, its reasonable to assume they will not affect anyone else as a direct result of this game alone.
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Perhaps in future, when entering in to a what appears to be quite a serious discussion with a lighthearted comment, you should take the time to make this clear to the rest of the forum. Like I said, I wasn't the only one to miss the sarcasm in you post.
@ Manic - It appears we seem to hold very similar views - I'm beginning to wonder if we shouldn't just head off to the hills and start our own survivalist commune away from the decadence of modern society. We could call it the Utopian Seperatist Socialist Republic (USSR for short)!! What do you reckon comrade?
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You've got your opinion, I've got mine, this debate is pointless and just serves to raise the blood pressure of all involved.
edit: Like you were the other day, I'm having a right pain in the arse day at work, and am touchier than is stricly necessary, so I apologise for the name calling. I must learn to not actually come into some of these comments sections on days like today! Still think you're pretentious though.
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Oh, shut your hole, you tit. What's freedom of speech got to do with a pointless argument where the two parties are never going to agree?
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i'm sorry but if it gets an 18 cert, then thats who should be playing it.
the fact that she just said 'kids will get their hands on it' proves the system is failing THATS what they should be focusing on.
i'm a grown adult. i want to play grown adult games, whatever their content.
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Anyway, I'm out of here for now people. My Friday afternoon has never been so thought provoking or interesting - thanks to all those who I've been chatting with. Hope you all have a good weekend - I'm off to get as high as a kite and as shitfaced as possible, without hurting anyone else in the process! A total disregard to most peoples morals and the society we live in. And if you think I'm kidding - think again!!
/edit typo/
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Fatfish, that was my point though! It was/is pointless to carry on this thread because I highly doubt that either camp will be able to get the other to come round to their way of thinking.
Yet, here I am doing it! Ah well.
Have a good weekend.
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Have a good one.
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"I'm ashamed to say, yes I did once "smack some heads together""
Hey, no one is made of stone. Ashamed is too strong a word here I think.
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(blows kisses to you all)
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Pimp my sister
Kiddy fiddler
No daddy no.
Porn Star.
Kitten smasher.