PS3 'in better place for launch' than 360 - Mark Rein

By Tom Bramwell Published 26 July, 2006

Interview on EGTV now.

Amidst all the arguments over PS3's hefty price tag, how much the world really cares about Blu-ray, and how important Xbox 360's steadily growing lead will prove, self-styled 'industry loudmouth' and Epic boss Mark Rein has revealed an interesting take on the next-gen battle from a developer's perspective.

Comparing the situation for developers last year ahead of the launch of 360, Rein believes Sony's efforts to get final dev kits out to studios compares favourably with those of its bitter rival.

"Developers were just getting final PS3 hardware [around E3], which is a long time before ship," Rein told Eurogamer TV in an exclusive interview now showing. "Developers did not have finished Xbox 360 hardware last year at E3. So Sony's actually maybe in a better place vis-a-vis Microsoft in relation to launch."

"I think Sony's in a good spot with the PlayStation 3," he added. "I know we're getting some great results with it back at our house, so I would expect other developers will be as well."

And speaking of Epic games in development, while 360 action title Gears of War was undoubtedly one of the more visually amazing titles on show during May's gaming spectacular, Rein promised that improved tech will mean that the final version will raise the bar still further.

"[The E3 demo] was using our single-threaded rendered. We have our new Gemini multi-threaded rendered working in the engine right now," Rein explained. "The final game's built on it, it gives us better frame rates and more fluidity - UT 2007 will also benefit from it. It only gets better from here. So if you were impressed with Gears of War at E3, the finished game's going to be much better, it's going to be spectacular."

The full video interview with Mark Rein, in which he also slams Intel integrated graphics and reveals why he's known in the office as 'Captain Obvious', is available to view now on EGTV.

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (181) Latest comment 6 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Mr_Whacker #1 6 years ago

    "So Sony's actually maybe in a better place vis-a-vis Microsoft in relation to launch."

    So that better place would be shops then?

  • Triggerhappytel #2 6 years ago

    One man's opinion. Watch how some people will take this as gospel.

  • The-Bodybuilder #3 6 years ago

    In terms og game development, then he's definately right (IMO).
    However that doesn't matter now. When potential buyers are in the shop, they aren't gonna compare the ps3 to the 360 last year, are they?

  • yorkiebar #4 6 years ago

    they'll see a much cheaper 360 running games just as good as, if not better than, the PS3. Your average Joe Public parent is not going to pay £425 when they can get away with £280.

  • Tomo #5 6 years ago

    He actually said vis-a-vis...

  • SlackMaster #6 6 years ago

    Didn't think Joe publics parents would be buying it anyway... thought Sony are aiming for the 8% of the market that have HDTV's. :p

  • yorkiebar #7 6 years ago

    everybody I know who can afford a HDTV has already got a 360

  • #8 6 years ago

    Is this the "big" GoW announcement?

  • Carpathian #9 6 years ago

    I thought the recent "Shakycam video" of the whole of the first level of GoW was pretty damn special (the "CNN Cam" view rocks !) and I'm jaded from FPS overkill.

    If that WAS running only a single threaded engine, compared with the final multi-version, then phew.....I'll shall buy a fresh set of trousers ready for launch as I'll be spoiling the ones I'm wearing at the time..... ;o)
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 13:32

  • Xerx3s #10 6 years ago

    Didn't think Joe publics parents would be buying it anyway... thought Sony are aiming for the 8% of the market that have HDTV's. :p

    Those are the parents who buy their children consoles. >:\

    /childhood issues ;p

  • Machiavel #11 6 years ago

    The final game's built on it, it gives us better frame rates and more fluidity

    Aren't they the same thing, or does he mean more fluidy? (aka more water globules, falling snow, etc.)

  • glaeken #12 6 years ago

    @Machiavel

    I think you can think of frame rate and fludity as two different things. For instance fludity can refer to how many steps you have in an animation. you might only have 3 steps to say pull a gun but those 3 steps could be shown at 60 FPS.
    Now if you have 30 steps in your animation showing at 60 FPS then obviously that will look far better.

    I could be talking crap but this makes sense to me.

  • penhalion #13 6 years ago

    So this better place would be why developers are dropping their PS3 line-ups then. Something about the final kit being just as much of a pain to work on as the beta kits....

  • glaeken #14 6 years ago

    @penhalion presumably you can provide links to back up that steaming load?

  • IAmBatman #15 6 years ago

    > I could be talking crap

    Given that game animations are keyframed and blended between, yes you are.

  • Xephon70 #16 6 years ago

    Let the obvious negative comments begin!! Let everyone be on a downer anytime anyone mentions how well the PS3 devs are doing!!!

    Oh, you have already. Carry on.

  • 2099net #17 6 years ago

    Yes, but up until a few week before E3, wasn't the PS3 due to be launched in the "Spring" (in Japan at least). You would bloody hope some developer kits were ready by then!

    Or were Sony lying (to keep their stock up) when they dogmatically stated "as far as we are concerned we will still be launching in the spring";)?
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 14:06

  • DrDamn #18 6 years ago

    @Triggerhappytel
    "One man's opinion. Watch how some people will take this as gospel."

    Yeah cos there is no way you can have a positive PS3 news story ... what has he said that you disagree with here exactly? There are the facts about final dev kits, and the opinion that his guys are getting some great results out of the hardware. Where is the problem?

    What he is saying is not actually all that contentious is it? MS position at E3 last year was looking very poor. Since that point they did a great job of turning it around and had a decent launch.

  • Stormflood #19 6 years ago

    One man's opinion. Watch how some people will take this as gospel.

    Which opinion? His opinion that GoW is looking damn good, or that the Sony don't suck as much as certain fanbois would like to believe?

    This is one helluva tough call. Do the xbots respect this devs opinions - he is, after all, saying great things about GoW for 360 - or do they lambaste him for even hinting Sony have done something right - a positive slant on the console and company that keeps them up all night, frothing at the mouth with venomous hatred?

    The rule maybe this: believe everything he says about GoW, but with the understanding he is talking a bribe when he talks about PS3. Yeah, that follows the True Gamer(tm) code of conduct.

  • DrDamn #20 6 years ago

    @Machiavel RE: Fluidity and Frame Rate ...

    You could think of it this way. A frame rate of 23fps on a 60Hz display would look less fluid than a steady frame rate of 20fps, as the first would keep dropping frames. 60/20 is a nice whole number. If improvements in the engine can give higher and more consistent frame rates then it also improves fluidity.

  • NthSimulachum #21 6 years ago

    Back when I was a yorkshire tot, in't the Mill, we had to get up at 4 in the morning, play on a dusty abacus for 3 minutes, then work for 1/2 a penny per day mining uranium from crocodile eggs!

  • yorkiebar #22 6 years ago

    NthSimulachum, you describe my very own childhood! Until the advent of the ZX Spectrum, that is. Like a ray of colour into our dull little existence...

    I'd also like to say that Sony have really only got this right because they're launching in November and not Spring like the kept on promising. I can't imagine Mr Epic Games being quite so flattering if they'd done that!

  • neilka #23 6 years ago

    I think it's single/multi-threaded "renderer" rather than "rendered".

  • Rash' #24 6 years ago

    DrDamn, most developers wouldn't dare bitch about PS3 after the fiasco with PS2. That system clearly demonstrated the arrogant attidute most developers had about developing new games. PS2 came along and shook all that and if it wasn't for Microsoft's arrival with a more powerful system, then most devcos today would concede they were wrong to question the power of the PS2. The fact of the matter is that PS3 is a continuation of the philosophy Sony started with PS2, that is: there must be a better way to create games for a dedicated games machines. The games most are seeing for PS3 at the moment are the beginnings of the unveiling of what te system can truly deliver. To understand what I mean, compare the graphics of games at the beginning of the PS2 life cycle to the games coming off the production line today. It could be argued in some cases that they appear to be from completely different formats. I'll wager that by this time next year the gap in graphical strength between 360 and PS3 will start to become more visible.

  • Kostabi #25 6 years ago

    Nothing to do with the big Sony contract Epic landed then...

  • Kiigan #26 6 years ago

    Mark Rein in "praising company he has sold a very expensive UE3 license to" shocker!

  • Rash' #27 6 years ago

    yorkiebar, Sony were aiming for a Spring release. This wasn't announced as an official release date for the system. So technically, the reason "Sony have really only got this right " is because they understood what they could deliver and when.

  • Bill_Gates_Bitch #28 6 years ago

    Rein is a f***** twat. How can the playstation 3 be in better position when it costs $200 more than that it's nearest equivalent rival, is lumbered with an expensive, unnecessary media format, and according to comments from all non-biased developers is an absolute nightmare program for. Oh, I forgot $ony is one Epic's major customers...

  • 2099net #29 6 years ago

    @Rash'

    I disagree. A spring launch was "confirmed" last September ( http://ww w.gamesindustry.biz/content_pag... ) and it wasn't until March this year serious doubts were acknowledged ( http://ww w.cnet.com.au/games/0,39029232,... ) with Sony themselves commenting that a Spring launch was still planned.

    Oddly, they were saying this until the end of their financial year, even though, obviously by March they would have known otherwise. A "no comment" would have been appropriate. I thought it was illegal to willfully mislead shareholders...

  • DJ12 #30 6 years ago

    Only thing I've ever heard devs say is it's not as easy to program as the 360, not that it's hard.

    In fact most people that have commented on it have said it's far easier than the PS2 was, and that didn't do too badly, and that was actually a nightmare to program.

  • Lukus #31 6 years ago

    Rash'- "The fact of the matter is that PS3 is a continuation of the philosophy Sony started with PS2, that is: there must be a better way to create games for a dedicated games machines"

    You're kidding right? Pretty much every developer has stated what a bitch the PS2 has been to develop for whilst unanimously praising Microsoft's dev tools and support.

    So Sony's ongoing philosophy is- "to make it as tricky as possible to access the true power of PlayStation" ?
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 15:04

  • Steroyd #32 6 years ago

    Rein is a f***** twat. How can the playstation 3 be in better position when it costs $200 more than that it's nearest equivalent rival, is lumbered with an expensive, unnecessary media format, and according to comments from all non-biased developers is an absolute nightmare program for. Oh, I forgot $ony is one Epic's major customers...

    and they all come out to play.

    you do know he said "better" for dev kits being launched as in a "better" position MS was shipping out dev kits exactly 12 months before.

    and i'd love for you to give me proof to these unbiased developers saying the PS3 was a nightmare to program for, from my understanding they're saying it's more complex (no brainer double the number of cores to the closest multi-core processor).

    Gabe Newell and John Carmack are the only developers i've seen to moan about the PS3's architecture... oh wait they're PC hardcore.

  • Xerx3s #33 6 years ago

    I'll wager that by this time next year the gap in graphical strength between 360 and PS3 will start to become more visible.

    As in: the ps3 will have the better graphics? lol?

  • Rash' #34 6 years ago

    2099net, the first link states "..according to a german site..." which just sounds like "we can't confirm this ourselves". The second link proves more interesting, but my point still stands that it was never an official announcement. My thinking is if it's true then more than one site will cover it (sites of respectable stature), and I can't think of many that covered Spring as an announced release date for PS3. Either way it appears as though you're conceding that Sony are doing things "right".

  • Kiigan #35 6 years ago

    Mark is merely talking about being in a "better place" from a development point of view - with final kits being available to developers a lot earlier than the 360 kits were. There's nothing contentious there, it's just the truth. I do still think that personally I'd be happier with the 360 beta hardware than a final PS3 kit anyway from an ease-of-development point of view, but hey.

  • Rash' #36 6 years ago

    Lukus, one simple point: why develop a games console with general purpose hardware when the system isn't likely to operator on general purpose applications? Over the past two generations Sony have created systems which removed this old fashion approach. The approach is unheard of and unorthodox, but clearly it has delivered. It's the developer that have bitched about this in the previous generation that are the arrogant developers I speak of. Those that are prepared to stay in a rut to keep life easy rather than move forward and think about progress.

  • glaeken #37 6 years ago

    The 360 and PS3 will never be far apart when it comes to graphics. This has nothing to do with the development environment but the fact both GPU's are very similar in capabilities. The GPU's are really developed off of the back of the PC GPU's from both ATI and Nvidia and as anyone knows that follows the PC side to this there is very little to seperate the two these days. Nvidia might have the flagship GPU for 6 months and then ATI leap frog them on their next GPU. It's been like this for years.

    Neither has some magical advatange that is suddenly going to rear its head now we are in the world of consoles. Neither is going to pluck some magical graphical effect out of their arse that the other is not capable of doing.

  • Calgon #38 6 years ago

    No, Spring was what they said, but they knew they couldnt make it, they wanted gamers to hold off from buying a 360 and then come spring, "oh you will have to wait a little longer, you might aswell now hey?".

    The main reasons why they couldnt get it ready in time?
    a) The Blue-ray drive wasn't nearly ready back then.
    b) They are still apparently having more yeild problems than expected for the Cell CPU, maybe they will have to ship with 5 instead of 8 active SPEs in retail PS3s.

    Rash': I think you're in for a very long wait if you think the PS3 games are going to have better visuals at any point the way things are looking. If anything it could be 360 that comes out ontop its comparable in raw performance, has a much better balanced architecture(all the components where designed from ground up to work in tandem, for a games console architecture too), is more efficient and more advanced in some of the key areas(where it matters, blue-ray and cell - the two most expensive parts of the PS3, arent a big advancement for game code IMO).

    [link url=http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ne/p/2006/consoles_chart_232x215. gif
    ]http://i.i.com.com/cnwk. 1d/i/ne/p/2006/c...[/link]

    glaeken: Xenos isn't a PC GPU shoehorned into a console architecture, its a custom GPU(more importantly a Console GPU), theres going to be things you can compare in it to the PC space, but alot of the decisions made when designing it, where for the 360 alone. Nvidia doesn't do that, they optimised and shoehorned it to fit with the
    PS3, lets not forget NVidia GPUs have always worked best with the x86 architecture, so how will it fare with Cell?.
    Edited by 6 at 26/07/06 @ 16:22

  • Eighthours #39 6 years ago

    look at all the anti Sony trolls surface. heh.

    Most. Ironic. Post. Ever.

  • DrDamn #40 6 years ago

    @Calgon point b)

    You got substantiated proof of that. First off it was only ever meant to be 7 (one has always been accounted for with redundancy). Second off, could they really ship with just 5 if devs have already been developing for 7? The games wouldn't work properly would they?

  • 2099net #41 6 years ago

    @Rash'

    Well lots of sites did report "Spring" as a Japanese launch date. And Sony's own PR did confirm it at several times leading upto the global release annoucement (see http://www. gamespot.com/news/6140996.html "An unnamed Sony spokesman is cited in the article as saying that the company is still targeting the release window it officially announced in May at the Electronics Entertainment Expo." )

    But that's all by the by. What I'm saying it we'd all be shocked if Sony didn't have development kits shipped out by E3. As for comments at E3 about games looking "more complete" than similar titles for the 360 the year before, they'd better have - Sony really only showcased Japanese titles, or titles to be launched in Japan as far as I know and all the developers were still being told there was to be a Spring launch until a few weeks before the event!

    Microsoft could have sat on the 360 launch, sent out more development kits, perhaps fine tuned a few of the launch titles. But would doing that have put them "in a better place"? If Sony really wants to wow everyone with their PS3, they could wait until a developer actually has used the Blu-Ray drive to its full potential - which could be years. Would that put them in a "better place"?

    The fact is, the price of the PS3 and - while you may disagree with my next assessment - general indifference to the machine means that dev kits or not, I don't think this Christmas will have Sony in a "better place". For all their software disappointments, hardware shortages etc the 360 IS the fastest selling console to date. It has built up a following. Developers are getting to grips with it.

    I think if the first PS3 games simply match the 2nd generation 360 games (which seems likely based on all we know) the PS3 isn't in a "better place" for launch. It's fighting with a machine which appears just as capable, readily available and cheaper.

    Oh, and I'm still waiting for some decent Blu-Ray discs to be announced! Where's the Ultimate James Bond collection? Spider-Man 1 and 2? Rocky? Raging Bull? The Final Fantasy Movie? All Sony properties. If Sony want to convince people how good their hardware is, they need to come out fighting, not just repeatedly talking about it at events and on paper (in a slightly offensive manner too).
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 15:55

  • Rash' #42 6 years ago

    glaeken, this may be true, but the reason so many Sony fanboys go on about Cell is because the PS3 CPU can play an active role in graphical output on the system. It appears as though the two units (GPU & CPU) complement each other and it is because of this architecture that many believe PS3 will surpass the 360.

  • DrDamn #43 6 years ago

    @2099net
    "I think if the first PS3 games simply match the 2nd generation 360 games (which seems likely based on all we know) the PS3 isn't in a "better place" for launch. It's fighting with a machine which appears just as capable, readily available and cheaper."

    If PS3 launches with games which match 2nd generation 360 games - at least on a technical level - doesn't that imply that the machine itself is more capable? Either that or that it is easy to develop for?

    Personally I don't see much between the two systems. This appears to be backed up by a number of developer comments. If the above is true though, then one of the two reasons I gave seems to hold. Just an observation.

  • Calgon #44 6 years ago

    DrDamn I'll have a look around to see if I can find some of the articles, it may have been a roumer, but thats not something that any company would announce is it?

    5 was just a guess but if they are still having yeild troubles, they could well disable one(most likely) or two(possible if its a major problem) further SPUs(thats why they do it, to improve yeilds). I dont think the games would cease to function, they would have to change how the code is handled a bit though yes. I doubt they are using all of them anyway and they arent doing anything spectacular, afterall they are only custom DSPs which although usefull for streaming(and make your specs look a bit better on paper, like Nvidias usual inflated specs) and the like, they arent all that new and arent the second coming as Sony fanboys like to beleive.

    edit: No, there are games that look almost on par with 2nd generation 360 games but, like the article says 360 developers got theirs much later, PS3 developers have had more time so its not an apples to apples comparison with first gen software. Also Sony WILL definately try and play the "untapped potential" card again, but every machine has that... PS3 fanboys will fall for it hok line and sinker as always though, others will actually look whats infront of them and whats on the horizon, not something they hope will happen(which it wont).
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 16:08

  • Rash' #45 6 years ago

    Calgon, Your link doesn't work. But as for 360 surpassing PS3, well that's a big ask. Equal pegging is an arguement worth having but yours in groundless. In terms of raw power for instance, RSX is more powerful. However Xenos is a more efficient beast. Most are aware that PS3 CPU is far in advance of Xenon. And both RSX and Cell are understood to operator well in tandem to deliver very powerful results. Because not enough is know about this power the overzealous are jumping forward to offer their thoughts, which is valid, but commons sense and history suggests PS3 will be the more powerful. I my opinion by some margin.

  • Xerx3s #46 6 years ago

    Lukus, one simple point: why develop a games console with general purpose hardware when the system isn't likely to operator on general purpose applications?

    eh? GP > FP when it comes to games. Fact. Unless the bulk of your games only exist out of prerenderd films of course.

    It appears as though the two units (GPU & CPU) complement each other and it is because of this architecture that many believe PS3 will surpass the 360.

    Yes and no other system does this. ....

    And 'many'? Care to link to that?

  • glaeken #47 6 years ago

    Rash that only makes sense if you are perhaps referring to the cell doing the physics on objects and their movement. That might help out the GPU a bit and give it a bit of extra grunt. It's also been said one of the 360 cores could also help out in the same manor though.

    Ultimately I don't believe the hardware will separate itself at all in power and cross platform development of most next generation games will mean developers will produce for the lowest common denominator anyway meaning whichever turns out to be the lower powered will set the bar for both of them.

  • 2099net #48 6 years ago

    @DrDamn

    "If PS3 launches with games which match 2nd generation 360 games - at least on a technical level - doesn't that imply that the machine itself is more capable? Either that or that it is easy to develop for?"

    Well, yes and no. To me it implies developers were working to an earlier release schedule and have had longer to polish their code subsequently. I'm pretty sure most of the "absolutely stunning" games in development started their development round about the same time as the first wave of 360 titles, even if only on PC hardware at the time.

    To the average person on the street, it probably doesn't imply anything "They look about the same". People with an affiliation to the PS2 may think the PS3 is better, and some casual gamers may also come to that conclusion. But they'll also come to the conclusion the PS3 costs more, with little extra "spice" to show.

  • Rash' #49 6 years ago

    2099net, in terms of fighting, lets wait for TGS for that. As for only Jap games at E3: Heavenly Sword and Resistance: Fall of Man are the most obvious that spring to mind in contradiction to your remarks. The indifference you speak of is the dedicated gaming press and market. The mass market is fickle and so can't be guaranteed to have the same response. So yes for the time being I do disagree with you on that. That's just some of the issues I felt I should address. I think you're over reading it. My point, as someone all ready has stated here, is that Sony are doing it "right" because they know what they are doing. And as someone else also pointed out the Spring date may have been a smoke screen to divert would be 360 purchases. Whatever the case they clearly appear to be very aware of the situation they are in.

  • Calgon #50 6 years ago

    Rash' thats complete unfounded nonsense though, you didnt actually make any sound technical bases like I did for that opinion... but you are entitled to it I guess.

    ...And no RSX isnt more powerfull than Xenos OVERALL in any fair comparisson Xenos has so far come out ontop and many seem to agree with that(along with it being more advanced and efficient.. I bet all you know about is USA, not the country ;) ), there are a few things that go in RSXs favour like raw pixel processing speed(but there are differences in the way this is handled on the two GPUs, theres other things that shouldnt be ignored like the Smart e-Dram and how the framebuffers are handled too) and a 50mhz faster clock speed(but Xenos can do more per clock cycle). Cell you have a point with but again not overall, game code isnt always about streaming infact there could be many instances where Xenon could be doing more than the PS3 could handle, Xenon was made by IBM and MS at a time where they knew what Sony were aiming for already, this isnt an off the shelf part either, theres things not found in the cell in it... like dot product instruction(which can prove mighty usefull for devs, sony devs will have to emulate this with multiple instructions) and branch prediction. Nothing we've seen so far or read (aside from hype spread by sony)supports that the PS3 will be more powerfull by some margin(so where is this common sense you speak of?)

    edit: I fixed that link btw.. just some component prices(just to point out where the cost comes from and question will this extra cost result in better games? I'll give that a big fat NO!).
    Edited by 6 at 26/07/06 @ 16:49

  • mike_mgoblue #51 6 years ago

    Devil May Cry 4 is coming to the Xbox 360 and NOT the Playstation 3!!!

    In the May 18, 2006 issue of Famitsu magazine, the Devil May Cry producer Hiroshi Kobayashi revealed that plans had changed drastically for Devil May Cry 4! He said that Devil May Cry 4 will now be released for the Xbox 360 and the Wii, but NOT the Playstation 3!

    Let's just get one thing straight to all of the people who search for Internet information: When you see an article that says, "Update: Kobayashi has confirmed that Devil May Cry 4 is being released exclusively for the Playstation 3," it was from January 20, 2006! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that May 18th, 2006 is a later point in time! This means that as of right now we have received absolute confirmation that Devil May Cry 4 will be released for the Xbox 360 and the Wii, but not the PS3!

    Devil May Cry 4 was nowhere to be seen for the Playstation 3 at the 2006 E3, and its lack of development is the reason why. Kobayashi has said that the Xbox 360 version of the game will be just as good if not better than the PS3 trailor shown at the 2005 E3. In the interview, Kobayashi explains that he is not sure about the power of the Playstation 3, but he makes it clear that Devil May Cry 4 on the Xbox 360 will fully maintain all of the expected quality for the game!

    THIS IS AWESOME!!! And it needs to be covered publicly MORE!!!

    Here are recent May 18, 2006 hyperlinks to prove this:

    [link url=http://www.360-hq.com/modules.ph p?name=Xbox_Games&op=view&id=280&related_gid=280
    ]http://ww w.360-hq.com/modules.php?name=X...[/link]
    [link url=http://ps3.qj.net/Sony-to-lose-Devil-Ma y-Cry-exclusivity-/pg/49/aid/41766
    ]http://ps 3.qj.net/Sony-to-lose-Devil-May...[/link]
    [link url=http://www.360insider.net/article s/05-18-2006/devil-may-cry-coming-to-xbox-360/
    ]http://ww w.360insider.net/articles/05-18...[/link]
    Edited by 3 at 26/07/06 @ 16:39

  • DrDamn #52 6 years ago

    Considering the awesomeness of this it's almost shocking that it has taken 2 months to get through to us eh?

    Just following the links and the words "hinted" and "may" are used. The implication is also that the game will come out on X360 and Wii first and then PS3, not as you implied that it has switched systems altogether. Maybe that explains the lack of awesomeness other people found ...
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 16:42

  • InfanticideRules #53 6 years ago

    Y'know what's better than being a spastic tool who associates excessively (and hilariously!) with a specific electronics maker, mike_mgoblue?

    Kissing girls!
    Not being a virgin!

    I recommend you go try either of such activities, perhaps expand your miniscule mind beyond the logical fallacy of partisan gaming loyalties.
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 16:43

  • Rash' #54 6 years ago

    glaeken, OK. Lets take normal mapping, which clearly has an impact on how good a game looks. On a capable title like Heavenly Sword I've seen it all over the place with lighting having a dramatic impact on it's use. Now put in environmental physics as demoed at E3, coupled with numerous enemies all operating on various AI routines and you're talking about a highly complex world into which a highly complex lead character model is put in. Compare that to Gears of War. I'm not saying one game looks better than the other, but HS is a more complexity title to muster. If PS3 is doing that now imagine what it could handle if it lowered it's ambitions to a standard more similar to Gears. Don't get me wrong. GoW looks amazing. What makes it unique is it's interface and the manner in which you interact with the world. Beyond that, as game, based on the demo shown, it's really (dare I say it!!!) a 3rd person shooter that could be achieved on the Xbox (albeit with inferior graphics). HS is only possible on PS3. What I'm saying is that your not looking at the bigger picture. The games Sony demoed at E3 demonstrated how much more ambitious the titles on PS3 are. Motorstorm's physics, Warhawk's large worlds, Resistance's 32 player battles online, Heavenly Swords intricate combats with crowds of enemies. These ambitions are being relised because the power being afford to the developers on the system.

    I agree however that with multi format releases developer will have to fall back on the lowest common denominator to reach the largest market.

  • DrDamn #55 6 years ago

    @Rash ...

    I can see where you get your name from ;-). That is a shed load of conjecture in there which is setting yourself up to be torn down. Mentioning Motorstorm is also a big mistake.

    /quietly leaves the room

  • #56 6 years ago

    What everyone seems to be forgetting is that hardware has absolutley no importance at all.

    IT'S. THE. GAMES.

    The number and skill of the developers you have on the platform is what counts, and how much cash you have to lube the cogs as well of course. ;)

    For me I haven't seen one PS3 launch title that has got me sitting up to look.

  • AcidSnake #57 6 years ago

    In regard of that Devil May Cry 4 post...

    It's highly unlikely...
    I'd like for it to happen (it being released on all 3 platforms) but I really think it will remain ps3 exclusive...

  • DrDamn #58 6 years ago

    @Calgon

    Just out of interest - genuinely as I haven't looked in to this much myself - why do you say the SPE's are just custom signal processing units - great for processing streams but not so good with other stuff.

    They are SPE's by the way, not SPU's - where SPE stands for a rather twatting sounding Synergistic Processing Element.

    As an example with Heavenly Sword they use a single SPE to control animation of the main characters hair. That doesn't sound like signal processing.

  • Calgon #59 6 years ago

    What I'm saying is that your not looking at the bigger picture.
    No we just have eyes and can tell you, you're last post was completely subjective and well.. inaccurate in some cases. You seem to beleive we haven't seen the likes of HS or Resistance or any of the PS3 games you want to mention, we are telling you we have and in some cases BETTER!.

  • Calgon #60 6 years ago

    DrDamn: Did I not specificly say SPEs? you are simply repeating hype sent out by sony... they arent all that amazing trust me, phyics and some graphical leveraging maybe but dont be expecting anything spectacular from them.

  • Xerx3s #61 6 years ago

    Ehhh, rash, wtf are you going on about?

    But hey, if you want to believe your things then so be it. I'm not saying that I know who is stronger and will come out on top in a year or two (saying such a thing would testify of a lack of knowledge and experience) but the things you say sometimes come close to plain bs.

    EDIT:

    I'm with jamesphilp on this one, it's far to hot to have this pointless debate that isn't going to convince anyone. Let's have a beer, enjoy the moment and think about what it's about (games).
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 16:58

  • Rash' #62 6 years ago

    Common sense and history tells us that the system later to the market is the more powerful. I'm a fair person, so as far as I'm aware the RSX is more powerful but Xenos is a more efficient CPU with leads people in some circles to believe it has a slight advantage. This I'm prepared to concede. Xenos being more powerful, sorry but you'll ave to link that I'm afraid. On the flip side the Cell as a gaming CPU is considered a far more advance CPU than Xenon. Whether streaming is the only method of developing on PS3 I can't comment but like I said as a combination the PS3 has greater power. You have appreciate the ambitions of the games demoed at E3 to see that.

  • 2099net #63 6 years ago

    @Rash'

    Smokescreen still equals "lie". Do you approve of this behaviour by Sony? Anyhow, I don't believe that, because its something that was also conveyed to shareholders. This is obvious when the share price fell when the delay was announced. It's wrong to mislead shareholders. Regardless of this, the software companies themselves were still being told to get ready for a spring launch, as the Namco news article I linked to before shows. Developers would be getting something ready for "Spring", while last E3, Xbox360 developers knew that had a few more months until launch.

    As for Heavenly Sword etc. Yes, its a Western game, but it still appeals to a Japanese audience and will most likely have a Japanese release. And I'm sure the developers could have been aiming for a Japanese hardware launch as some point.

    The point is, the games at E3 had been worked on since the first Xbox360 games were, even if they were being worked on unconfirmed kit, hardware emulators etc.

  • Rash' #64 6 years ago

    mike_mgoblue, sorry man, but if your story about DMC were true, then as you say more people would be covering it. And your dating it May 18th. Well over a month ago. Of the sites you link, one leads to noting and the other two are are of questionable quality. Another fine example of 360 owners desperate for PS3 properties.

  • DrDamn #65 6 years ago

    @Calgon
    "you are simply repeating hype sent out by sony"

    Where? I said what SPE stands for and called it twatty (I don't *think* those were Sony's words but I stand to be corrected) and I put in something from a developer - not Sony.

    I agree they are not the second coming, but to label them as custom DSP's is probably going to the other extreme don't you think?

  • InfanticideRules #66 6 years ago

    The interview mike_mgoblue refers to took place back in January, was reported as such back in January, and 'twas later clarified that Kobayashi had been mistranslated, & that the game was indeed a PS3 exclusive.

    Then a technical glitch apparently caused one of the articles reporting the now known-to-be-false-news to be reposted. This excerpt from one of the sites he provided:

    UPDATE - This was an article posted back in January 2006, due to a technical glitch it reposted itself yesterday.

    The mgoblue troll spastically blew his proverbial load for nothing. Classic.

  • Rash' #67 6 years ago

    DrDamn, I don't know about that: http://ww w.gametrailers.com/player.php?i...

  • #68 6 years ago

    Unbelievable.

    You guys have lost sight of what gaming should be about so much it's sad.

  • Calgon #69 6 years ago

    Rash' the reasons for it being later I've already mentioned here, as for the "super powerfull RSX" Nvidia already conceded that there are more powerfull GPUs on the market for some time now. Cell I think could be a disaster for sony, RSX was sony's back up plan, they needed a GPU and fast and Nvidia made a killing on it. You can throw quotes from Sony devs all day but most have been dissapointed, Steve Jobs had a chance to include it in Apples road map but he said "no thanks, cya sony!". I think Sony might end up kicking themselves for not scrapping the Cell and seek help from AMD or Intel. Like I said there are advancements in Xenon that Cell does not have which would be a big help for game developers, I just gave you one or two of the examples in my last post(you know not what you speak).
    Edited by 2 at 26/07/06 @ 17:17

  • DrDamn #70 6 years ago

    @Rash
    I've seen the new 720p Motorstorm trailer and it is coming along nicely. It doesn't demonstrate some of the feature which would back up your arguments though. Specifically the deformation of the track which then goes on to affect handling of those behind you and you on further laps. What I'm saying is there is nothing really distinguishing about it. In a lot of ways it reminds me of Flatout with the ragdolls etc.

  • Calgon #71 6 years ago

    @Calgon
    "you are simply repeating hype sent out by sony"

    Where?

    As an example with Heavenly Sword they use a single SPE to control animation of the main characters hair.

    Now I think you were saying that it was from a developer right? that was some of the hype sony talked up at E32005 and their devs are reiterating that.

  • Lukus #72 6 years ago

    Hear hear JP (as I shall now be calling you :D).

    This debate has descended into people giving opinions without any qualifying. Dare I say it, some people appear to be making information up and pulling 'facts' out of thin air. I hate to prolong this further, but Rash, what on earth are you basing any of your information on? It's all speculation/dreams on your part, particularly with regards to your Gears of War/Heavenly Sword comparison. How you can claim to know, on such limited information/ game-play videos of both titles which one is the more technically demanding is beyond me! I don't, nor would I claim to know, whether any of what you say is true in reality, but I'm pretty sure you don't either!
    :(
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 17:14

  • DrDamn #73 6 years ago

    @Calgon
    "Now I think you were saying that it was from a developer right? that was some of the hype sony talked up at E32005 and their devs are reiterating that."

    No it wasn't. It was from an interview in Edge with the developer themselves - i.e. not Sony. The issue of Edge with HS on the cover if you want to look it up.

  • Rash' #74 6 years ago

    2099net, "Yes, its a Western game, but it still appeals to a Japanese audience".

    Ha, ha! You said there were only japanese games at E3. You were mistaken.

    What's the point of this devcos on PS3 started working before 360 devcos? If the two systems were of equal quality then that wouldn't matter would it?

    The smoke screen is a theory. Do I condone it? No. But it's a cut throut business and Microsoft are guilty of similar tactics on PC.

  • Rash' #75 6 years ago

    DrDamn, It's valid conjecture which I don't see you capable of discrediting.

  • 2099net #76 6 years ago

    No Rash, I said "Sony really only showcased Japanese titles, or titles to be launched in Japan as far as I know."

    And I repeat. HS may be a Japanese game, but the developers are obviously aiming for a Japanese release at launch for it... and have most likely been planning it for a Japanese release since day one (and with the approproiate developement schedule at the time)

  • Calgon #77 6 years ago

    DrDamn did you actually read what I wrote? whether it was in an interview from the Dev in Edge or not it doesnt help you arguement anyway...(Im not sure why you are making a fuss anyway I never said it was incorrect but it is hype and sony was saying all of that early on... is it better than a less amount but more powerfull cores that can do more than each one being tied down with things like hair animations on a character... most devs would tell you hell no!)
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 17:22

  • DrDamn #78 6 years ago

    A link to that for you Calgon ...
    linky

    My mistake it was half an SPE (oh and the devs are calling them SPUs too so see what I know - shoots self in foot - either way the S stands for synergistic rather than Signal is the point).
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 17:22

  • 2099net #79 6 years ago

    "What's the point of this devcos on PS3 started working before 360 devcos? If the two systems were of equal quality then that wouldn't matter would it?"

    The point is none of the Japanese developers had their games ready for the "initial" PS3 launch six months after the 360's. So not only did they have to program for it longer, they didn't have satisfactory results. Now, with the release being delayed (or not, depending on who you believe) they have had time to produce better looking games - just like 2nd generation titles in development for the 360 over a longer development period "look better".

  • Rash' #80 6 years ago

    DrDamn, I'm not talking about distingushing features I'm talking about ambition, which Motor Storm backs up nicely for me. You can't name me a title of similar ambition as that of this title. By the way, that ambition being to push the envelop of off road racing. (I know what I say)

  • Rash' #81 6 years ago

    Calgon, (You know not what you say)
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 17:47

  • Calgon #82 6 years ago

    DrDamn you were arguing with yourself on that one my friend... it doesnt matter what you call them, read some of the tech review sites analysis', DSPs are what they looked at when designing the SPEs(they arent some radical new concept is all Im saying, theres no need to argue with that)... but again it doesnt matter though we only need to look at what is infront of us.
    Edited by 3 at 26/07/06 @ 17:34

  • Rash' #83 6 years ago

    2099net, "No Rash, I said "Sony really only showcased Japanese titles, or titles to be launched in Japan as far as I know."

    OK. Lets say for arguements sake you're right. What's your point? What so wrong with aiming for the jap market? Capcom are aiming for the west with Lost Planet and Dead Rising.
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 17:39

  • Calgon #84 6 years ago

    As far as the visuals on PS3 titles go MGS4(and it only looks on par with some of the 360 titles at best in most aspects) is the only stand out title the rest for me seem grossly over rated and over hyped(motor storm looks a bit crap to me Im sorry to say and I dont think theres anything ambitous about it either).
    Edited by 2 at 26/07/06 @ 17:33

  • Balסּr #85 6 years ago

    PS3 'in better place for launch' than 360 - Mark Rein

    I think the words 'seriously delayed' are missing from somewhere in that statement.

  • Rash' #86 6 years ago

    2099net, "...they have had time to produce better looking games - just like 2nd generation titles in development for the 360 over a longer development period "look better"."

    So? Your just bitching about something that frankly bears little to how this gen will pan out. I'm not agreeing with your statement, but it does appear as though you're thinking leads you to believe Sony has got one over Microsoft and therefore there must be some underhanded reason for it (a typical 360 fanboy response).
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 17:38

  • Rash' #87 6 years ago

    Calgon, "(motor storm looks a bit crap to me Im sorry to say and I dont think theres anything ambitous about it either)"

    Denial at Work.

  • DrDamn #88 6 years ago

    @Calgon
    "DrDamn did you actually read what I wrote?"

    Yes, looky ... first you said ...

    "you are simply repeating hype sent out by sony"

    So I said no a dev said it ... then you changed tack a bit and said ...

    "Now I think you were saying that it was from a developer right? that was some of the hype sony talked up at E32005 and their devs are reiterating that."

    The dev is talking about something specific in their own game. That's not hype, that's example and fact. Something you aren't too big on quoting yourself.

    This all stemmed from a statement you made earlier which I asked you for more info on. You'll remember I said I was genuinely interested. You've not actually backed up what you've said, just dismissed everything with claims of Sony hype.

    "I never said it was incorrect but it is hype"

    Hype is exaggerated claims, being deliberately misleading - that is pretty close to incorrect.

    As the sensible people have pointed out this has dissolved into a mire which has lost sight of games. I'll be going home now.

  • InfanticideRules #89 6 years ago

    Christ Calgon, will you ever get tired of demonstrating your abject mongism? I've met quite a swath of mongs in my time, but your mongliness is simply without peer. I look forward with a reverential fervour to the day when your unparalleled mong-y prowess is enshrined into the great Hall of Mong, & your mong-statue is feted by the ritual sacrifice of lesser, unworthy mong creatures.

    MGS 4 looks better than any currently released 360 title. Fact.
    I believe that two in-development 360 titles have the capability to match it's visuals: GOW, & Mass Effect. Too little is known of Halo 3 at this point.

    Once again, kudos on the marvellous mongfest..*big thumbs up*.

  • Rash' #90 6 years ago

    DrDamn, Before you go may be you want to rebutt my point about Motor Storm, or is the silence a demo of you conceding?

  • Bates #91 6 years ago

    Jesus, some bitter twattage going on in here, isn't there?

    Calgon is at the heart of it once again too, big shock there :/

  • SlackMaster #92 6 years ago

    DPU'S, RSX and sodding 1080dpi... Most people who claim to know the in's and out's of the 360 and the PS3 do not have a f**king clue.

    Lets just ignore all the hype and rumour and see what happens... No one trully knows which one is the more powerful and architecture will also play a big part.

    Lets just see what both console are capable of when they are all launched and we can play the games.

  • DrDamn #93 6 years ago

    Go on then. Yes I think it is ambitious, but as I said I didn't see any demonstration of that in the vid. Playtests from E3 also mentioned a lack of effect of the deformation. If the ambition is never realised - due to time, skill of the dev, or lack of power in the hardware(!). Then what does the ambition demonstrate about the hardware? Nothing.

  • Rash' #94 6 years ago

    DrDamn, If the amibition isn't reached it could be for all number of reasons, but hardware I find hard to believe as clearly the game exists because of the power afforded by that hardware. The developer is Evolution. They are a credible devco.
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 17:56

  • Rash' #95 6 years ago

    SlackMaster, "No one trully knows which one is the more powerful".

    Not true. Developers working on both might!!!

    Seriously though, historically, the latest system tends to be the most powerful. Which ever electronics field you work in. Those suggesting 360 will be more powerful are dreaming, period.

  • 2099net #96 6 years ago

    --- 2099net, "...they have had time to produce better looking games - just like 2nd generation titles in development for the 360 over a longer development period "look better"."

    So? Your just bitching about something that frankly bears little to how this gen will pan out. I'm not agreeing with your statement, but it does appear as though you're thinking leads you to believe Sony has got one over Microsoft and therefore there must be some underhanded reason for it (a typical 360 fanboy response). ---



    [Bangs head on wall] The article says Mark Rein thinks thinks the developer tools for the PS3 are better than those for the 360 when there was the same amount of time until the launch of the console. That's because the launch was delayed.

    Why do you think EA had no game's on show close to completion? Or Naughty Dog? Or Activision? Because they weren't expecting a Spring launch in the West. But Japanese developers were.

    Only Ubisoft had Assassin's Creed to show - and there's been much debate and rumours about the backstory of that game.

    The Sping launch WAS a the anticipated launch. It was given to the press. It was circulated in official shareholder documents. It was repeated ad nausum, even when people knew it couldn't be met by Sony PR. It was given to the developers. If it was all a "smokescreen" then Sony are guilty of business fraud to the highest degree. No "if"s or "but"s.

    So my response is "I should bloody well hope so. The launch is late. The devkits have had more time to be tuned. The games have had more time to be tuned. Ultimately is doesn't make any difference, as the 2nd Generation of 360 titles which have had just as long a development period of the PS3 games look more or less the same quality."
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 18:04

  • Rash' #97 6 years ago

    2099net, If your banging your head against walls you going to have to back up a lot of you info as it is not commonly know. Devcos having same/more time than 360 devcos is one I've not bought. The smoke screen was a theory presented by some one else here and I used it to offer another twist in the tale. But my most important problem with this thread is that I don't understand what you're point is.

  • Bates #98 6 years ago

    "The Sping launch WAS a the anticipated launch. It was given to the press. It was circulated in official shareholder documents. It was repeated ad nausum, even when people knew it couldn't be met by Sony PR. It was given to the developers. If it was all a "smokescreen" then Sony are guilty of business fraud to the highest degree. No "if"s or "but"s."

    Oh, they probably had every intention at the start of going in Spring, but I'll also bet they knew well before Spring there was no way they were going to make that window. Proabably they even knew last year, but they held out on announcing as much until the very last possible moment. I don't think 'fraud' has anything to do with it, just Sony grossly overestimating themselves once again.

  • 2099net #99 6 years ago

    The point is... when MS was at E3 last years it was about 6 months before the planned release of the 360. Everything was scheduled accordingly.

    This E3, its 1 or 2 months _AFTER_ the initial planned release (in Japan) of the PS3. Everything was (you would imagine, or else Sony was in an even bigger mess than we can imagine) scheduled accordingly for a period of time, until the delay became inevitable. Including providing Japanese developers (at the very least) with some form of developement kits/tools.

    So a guy saying "Hey, the dev kits for the PS3 aren't that bad. In fact, they're better than Microsoft's were this time last year." doesn't impress me much.

    Oh, and wasn't the PS3 delayed due to the security on the Blu-Ray drive. Not something which would have changed the hardware specification significantly. So, yes - the Dev Kits are pretty much bound to be better.

    Or were Sony lying again and they were frantically reconfiguring and finalising the hardware during the launch delay?
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 18:24

  • JackB #100 6 years ago

    Well, I'm sure Sony would be in an even better position if they delayed their launch another 6 months too...

    Geez, how could they not be in a better position. How about comparing Sony PS3's 6 month delay position to Microsoft 360's 6 months after launch (which wasn't delayed 6 months) position.

    Talk about not comparing apples to apples.

    Hope he's right about the Gears of War looking significantly better. That bodes well for both the 360 and PS3. I'm hoping both will have see amazing games in the next few years!

  • Rash' #101 6 years ago

    2099net, "So a guy saying "Hey, the dev kits for the PS3 aren't that bad. In fact, they're better than Microsoft's were this time last year." doesn't impress me much."


    Well that's something you'll have to take up Mark Rein.

  • Rash' #102 6 years ago

    "Talk about not comparing apples to apples."

    This is slightly unfair as nothing is known of the Spring launch. Was just for Japan, was worldwide? If it was for Japan, then based on their previous release strategies America would have had a November release and Europe later. So how significant the PS3 delay will never be fully resolved. I guess what I'm saying is that it's a little pointless raising this.
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 18:31

  • Calgon #103 6 years ago

    DrDamn Im saying its nothing special, you never mentioned where you got the quote originally either(which is the reason why I pointed out Sony where saying these sort of thing at last years E3 like it was something revolutionary), its not special, thats where the hype is... "ooooh theyve used an SPE for hair animations" so what? since the PPU will be tied up managing the SPEs alot, they damn well better be able to atleast do that and dont forget, at best there will be 6 of these SPEs available(could be fewer if the roumers are true, which Im not saying will happen but it is possible) with 1 reserved for the system.

    What proof did you ask for? low yields of cell? well since you're probably aware of google, I thought you'd have already looked into it by now, doing so youd see many sources saying the same thing, as low as 20% apparently, and thats not all, blue-ray is facing supply issues too, with reports of Sony not being able to meet the demand of the amount of diodes they will need.
    Heres one source for you: [link url=http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060712-7248.html
    ]    http://ar stechnica.com/news.ars/post/200...[/link]

    InfanticideRules you sir are a turd-sandwich, congrats on wasting my time reading that worthless post.
    Edited by 7 at 26/07/06 @ 19:11

  • theindustrialone #104 6 years ago

    jamesphilp,

    I think you should have made your posts in huge, flashing letters. Maybe more people would have noticed them then.

  • cyber_nicco #105 6 years ago

    I'm not sure what all the hubbub is about. As far as I can tell, all he said is that Sony as got their dev kits out with more lead time to launch than MS was able to do last year. That, and he said they are having some success developing on the PS3. Oh, and that they are having success developing on the 360, too (GoW, and UT2007).

    I think there is not enough fuel in it to feed the fire on this thread...

  • Lukus #106 6 years ago

    All this "PS3 'in better place for launch' than 360 - Mark Rein" stuff has been blown out of context. If you watch the video, it's a small but perfectly reasonable comment. It doesn't show a leaning to one system or the other, he's complimentary about all (barring Wii possibly but let's ignore that). He simply states that the PS3 having final dev kits this many months prior to launch is better than the same period before the 360's launch where dev kits were not final. Is anyone still confused about this???? Jebus!

  • Bates #107 6 years ago

    "Now you're talking about PS3 launch games looking better than Mass Effect, Oblivion, Forza 2, Gears Of War, Lost Planet..., because PS3 is oh-so-powerful, I don't see that either."

    The launch games are looking better than most of what I've seen on 360, plus there've even been one or two PS3 titles that have looked better than any 360 offering I've seen in action, so it's clearly doing something right.

    Still, even 'the best game ever' on the PS3 is still only ever going to be a PS3 game, eh? :)

  • Calgon #108 6 years ago

    cyber_nicco I have no problem with what Rein said, I just thought a few Sony fanboys read into to far, and came up with "PS3 POWNZES YOU! SONY IS TEH KING!". I try and bring a bit of light on the technical matters and correct a few people, which this place could use alot of and others get a bit hot under the collar about it(Sony Zombies).

    Personally I cant wait untill the PS3 is out there and these people shut up, none of the games shown so far look better than the top 360 titles and most likely this trend will continue(Im hoping on 360 silencing the Sony crowds with a killer game before all is said and done).
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 19:19

  • Bumbuliuz #109 6 years ago

    Im beginning to think Mr. Rein is on Sony payroll! ;)

  • Rash' #110 6 years ago

    Wonga, If you're talking technical: then Heavenly Sword and Motor Storm are attempting to push the envelop far and beyond what I've seen on 360. Heavenly Sword in particular, with it's intricate combat with crowds of enemies and environmental physics all packaged in a very convincing graphics engine, clearly demonstrates what I mean. Many of the 360 titles you've mentioned are games that can be achieved on the old Xbox, albeit with inferior graphics. Isn't Kameo for example a supped up Gamecube title? That doesn't sound like next gen to me.

  • cyber_nicco #111 6 years ago

    @Calgon

    "cyber_nicco I have no problem with what Rein said"

    I hope you didn't think I was directing that towards you - I wasn't. In fact I wrote it after reading only about the first 20 or so posts.

    Frankly, I am an Xbox enthusiast, but I think that these threads can spiral out of control at times.

    I don't mind if Sony does well, but I don't want to see them DOMINATE this generation (as they did the last time). As long as I get plenty of the games I enjoy, and the 360 does well enough to merit continuing generations, I am happy.

  • Lex_Luthor #112 6 years ago

    Why can't all the Xboxers on here be like cyber_nicco?

    I would argue some of the points and posts on here, but so many of them are coming from the usual anti-PS3 bores, there really is no point :(
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 20:28

  • Rash' #113 6 years ago

    Wonga, actually the deformation of the road is meant to effect the condition of the driving surface which effects how the cars behave leading to strategic elements to the game. Evolution are also aiming for 20 vehicles per race, so the game is only next gen possible. What you say about PGR is true but what in it is of any benefit to gameplay? None. It's just supped up graphics, which leds me to believe that there is very little on 360 that can be constituted as next gen. Even Gears of War which so many 360 fanboys rave about is just a 3rd person shooter. I won't denie that it looks promising, but what gameplay elements in that game can you describe as next gen? Heavenly Sword and Motor Storm are true next gen, because they aim to deliver next gen gameplay.

  • 2099net #114 6 years ago

    "actually the deformation of the road is meant to effect the condition of the driving surface which effects how the cars behave leading to strategic elements to the game. Evolution are also aiming for 20 vehicles per race, so the game is only next gen possible."

    So it's Waverace 64 then?

  • drumbaby #115 6 years ago

    ignore poster button = worn out

  • Rash' #116 6 years ago

    Wonga, "Kameo has done that"

    It's combat system for that section isn't exactly intricate is it?

  • Rash' #117 6 years ago

    2099net, "So it's Waverace 64 then?"

    With 20 vehicles? All destructable? I think not.

  • Rash' #118 6 years ago

    Wonga, My point I think is valid, very little on 360, as you say, is evolving gameplay. Most are last gen games with better graphics. The games I've pick out of the PS3 line are games Sony have actively sought to push the envelop of gaming.
    Edited by 1 at 26/07/06 @ 21:45

  • Lex_Luthor #119 6 years ago

    "ignore poster button = worn out"

    You too DB? I'd never have thought this thread would be good for something :)

  • Rash' #120 6 years ago

    Wonga, "Kameo isn't about combat..."

    No, but the point is that it isn't exactly complex is it? A thousand identical character models lacking in highly active movement patterns, being knocked about like pins, while the main character is similarly bereft of complex movement activity. Dynasty Warriors springs to mind, and even in that case the screen was briming with activity.

    You've only seen one level of Motor Storm so it's a little premature to judge it as bland and even then, that's your opinion. But what interests me is that you keep refering to the graphics with Motor Storm when clearly I'm drawing attention to the gameplay.

  • Calgon #121 6 years ago

    Heavenly Sword and Motor Storm are true next gen, because they aim to deliver next gen gameplay.

    NO THEY DONT.... give examples and some quotes if you wish or something because they sound very bland and boring, from what I've seen and read. You havent a leg to stand on if you cant do that... I could pick any 360 game or Wii game and claim the same. Mud deformation is ok but third parties such as codemasters are claiming the same thing, its nothing to get excited about and it wont save the game from being as boring as it looks. Anything else you've mentioned isn't new at all, feel free to post something you think is a "real next-gen" gamplay element though because Im interested about what the bleem you're talking about(whats so new about Heavenly Sword? I've seen trailers and gameplay and Im not seeing it... infact I just thought "give me ninja gaiden 2 anyday, not this crap";). They both look to be games which will be forgotten quickly IMO apart from Sony Zombies of course("oooh but Sony says we've never seen this before... its the real next-gen";).

    edit: to the points which you raised

    HS> crowds of enemies and environment physics = not new, where have you been?

    Motorstorm> 20 vehicle races = not new, theres PS2 games which feature this, but like you say with inferior graphics... soooo last gen hey?.

    Everthing you mentioned so far has been done before, with more advanced - powerfull hardware you can do more of it, this isnt exacly new though by your own admission because its the same as the "its just >insert better graphics, physics ect. here< dressed up as next-gen" arguement.
    Edited by 6 at 26/07/06 @ 23:38

  • Rash' #122 6 years ago

    Wonga, I can appreciate your point of view. I do think it's important however to note that with both Motor Storm and Heavenly Sword the developers are attempting to tackle the issue of next gen gameplay, which should be commended, as it's all to easy to take the easy route and just aim for better graphics.

  • Rash' #123 6 years ago

    Calgon, weren't you guity of not backing up your statements?

  • Calgon #124 6 years ago

    Rash if you mean the low Cell yields I've already provided a link for the 'too lazy to google'(near the top of this page I think).
    Edited by 2 at 26/07/06 @ 23:59

  • Xerx3s #125 6 years ago

    Btw, it's funny how he actually comments on how his words are taken out of context and then see EG post story's like this with such a title while the actual interview barely scratches that.

  • Calgon #126 6 years ago

    Xerx3s good point... but whats new, if it were the other way around, it would have read "Mark Rein Slams PS3... complain here and show your support for Sony" (well obviously Im exagerating, but you get the picture).
    Edited by 1 at 27/07/06 @ 00:03

  • DrDamn #127 6 years ago

    @Calgon

    Fair enough. For links I was asking about your point early on :-

    "b) They are still apparently having more yeild problems than expected for the Cell CPU, maybe they will have to ship with 5 instead of 8 active SPEs in retail PS3s."

    That I have seen before and the problem with that is the source (bloke from IBM) doesn't actually say they are having more yield problems than expected. In fact he says with a chip like the cell they *expect* 10-20% and with redundancy double that to 20-40%. I.e NOT more problems than expected. It all depends on what they expected to get and know one here knows that do they?

    The final point you have already admitted was conjecture on your part. In fact the source mentions this with the point "I don’t think Sony has thought about offering that."

    Just out of interest did you count me in the "PS3 POWNZES YOU! SONY IS TEH KING!" brigade?

  • Fatnick #128 6 years ago

    "I see motorstorm as a racing game with enhanced graphics and physics over last generation, when the novelty of that mud wears off, you've got the same old kind of gameplay blinged up. "

    And a game which only looks good because it seems to have been filmed in drunk-o-vision. Why don't you take some of that motion blur off, guys?

  • NegativeZero #129 6 years ago

    I don't get the comments about multi-threading. Is that a comment about it on PS3, or in general? Because UT 2007 was confirmed for X360, and it's not as if X360 is that far behind in number of processor cores - 6 vs 8+1.

  • DrDamn #130 6 years ago

    The threading comment was on GoW so relating to the X360.

  • cyber_nicco #131 6 years ago

    Nice article that explains the pros and cons of both architectures...

    [link url=ht tp://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2453
    ]http://ww w.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.a...[/link]

    It's a little old, but it is very in depth...

  • Canadian_Mike #132 6 years ago

    "b) They are still apparently having more yeild problems than expected for the Cell CPU, maybe they will have to ship with 5 instead of 8 active SPEs in retail PS3s."

    Hahaha. This thread is getting a little crazy now...where did that come from? *smacks forehead*

    Fatnick
    27-Jul-06 00:19:44
    And a game which only looks good because it seems to have been filmed in drunk-o-vision. Why don't you take some of that motion blur off, guys?

    I think the motion blur is set at a realistic level. Looks like the good ol Maya ".5" setting. Or was 1 the default??? Im more a houdini guy now.

    ...oh and 2d motion blur of course not the crappy, glitchy slow rendering 3D variety. Anyone know why they've never fixed that?

    ...and can we have a decent bevel tool already!!!!!!!!


    PS: Motorstorm looks incredible.

    PPS: Yes im half drunk......damn Wednesdays!!

  • #133 6 years ago

    "jamesphilp,

    I think you should have made your posts in huge, flashing letters. Maybe more people would have noticed them then. "

    I did use bold and Capitals and full stops - I thought that was enough, but apparently gaming these days is about comparing how long your dick is with the next guy and not about HOW FUN THE GAMES ARE

    /sigh.

  • Rambaldi #134 6 years ago

    Erm, as I read the article, he seemed pretty positive about both platforms - certainly no mention of any difference in horsepower (the main boast of the PS3).

    Way to flame your news titles EG...

  • Perry #135 6 years ago

    These sorts of comment theads always amuse me. The same arguments, over and over and over again, by the same people, against the same people.

    Don't you guys get bored of it? I get bored just when I see how many comments there are in a news item with such a heading.

    Why are you so loyal to either console? Surely neither Sony or Microsoft deserve such loyal fans?

    I've now got a 360 and a PS2 (and will likely get a ps3) and they are both great. If these two fight it out for the next 10 years, improving the gaming quality, then I am happy.

    I don't want Sony to win, I don't want Microsoft to win (more accurately, I dont care), I want both to make a profit and work on PS4, Xbox 720, but most of all, I want great games at reasonable prices.

    Seriously, you'd think you guys were 5 or 6, saying:

    "My Dad is better than yours"

  • mankell #136 6 years ago

    @Perry - You're right. Nothing is better for us gamers than two good well supported consoles.

    Oh yeah and my dad's better.

  • glaeken #137 6 years ago

    To me the console battle itches that same spot that people who believe that we did not land on the moon inhabit. I can not help but try and correct people that believe bollocks based on bollocks.

    It annoys me when people espouse some corporation’s nonsense like it is fact vs. some other corporation’s nonsense.

    I try to be a pragmatist about all this but some part of my brain holds out hope that I can make the deluded see the light. As the saying goes though you can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink. It does occur to me you could drown the horse in the water though so maybe there is a solution in there somewhere ;)

  • Azazel #138 6 years ago

    UT SUCKS Q3 SI T23H R00X0R!!!1

    AMD is better than Intel

    Sony are better than M$

    Nintendo are better than your mum

    Bwaaaerrr!

    /morphs into a llama and goes to live in Patagonia

  • Rash' #139 6 years ago

    Rambaldi. "Way to flame your news titles EG..."

    Yeah, EG has a habit of that, don't they?

  • Rash' #140 6 years ago

    farticusmaximus,

    1. "Anyone who says that any game released or demo'd on PS3 or X360 is not 'next gen' are quite simply wrong, as the current generation of hardware is not capable of producing such results."

    I'd disagree with that. I'd wager that PGR3 (still in my mind the best game on 360)could be converted to xbox without any loss to gameplay. Loss to graphics yes. But gameplay? Ninty's approach is a testiment to this philosophy, aiming to create a product that evolves gameplay rather than just embellished garphics. Sorry, but I'm confident there are plenty more products on 360, at least, that could be reproduced on the current generation of hardware.

    2. "There is not one shred of evidence that either PS3 or X360 has any kind of advantage over the other."

    I'd agree with this. In fact this whole section seems to be a well structured and informed arguement. I will say however that, historically, the hardware later to the market, regardless of which market that may be, tends to be more powerful. So logic and common sense would suggest PS3 is technically the better beast.

    3. "Who is in a 'better position' at product launch."

    Most would agree, at this stage, Microsoft are in the better position. Having released a very convincing product a year before the competition with a successful ad campaigne and promising 2nd gen titles on the horizon. MS are in the ascendency and in the driving seat. Their closest rival is playing catch up and the american giant could bully them with price drops if need be. Will it stay this way? Who can say. But certainly they are in the "better position".

    4. "Lastly... the proof of the pudding is in the eating"

    This is a very reasonable point. However if a played demo seems promising then posters are within their rights to discuss it. Case in point: Heavenly Sword is a very promising product. If you visit its official site you'll be present with a long list of gaming sites that were very impressed with what they played at E3. Now if you couple that with Ninja Theory's remarks in their forums about the game and how overwhelmingly confident they are of delivering the finished article, then you can't help but be highly expectant of this game. I've not played it myself but seeing is also believing. HS is about as promising as Gears' on 360, or Mario' on Wii. Sometimes quality just stands out.

    5. "Evidence is king."

    Absolutely! But only with logic and common sense.

    Edited by 1 at 27/07/06 @ 13:19

  • DrDamn #141 6 years ago

    Eh up Farticus - welcome to the EG Forums. See ya later :-)

    Edit - getting confused as today is a virtual Friday (got tomorrow off). See ya tomorrow even!
    Edited by 1 at 27/07/06 @ 14:23

  • 2099net #142 6 years ago

    Plus PGR3's main "next-gen" selling point is the integration with Xbox Live and Gotham TV. As of now, the PS3's online service is unknown.

  • Rash' #143 6 years ago

    farticusmaximus,

    Hi.

    "There's no magic to 'next gen'. No higher design pholosophy. It's just hardware. Anything else is corporate posturing."

    See if I were to agree with this then I would have to ignore the design philosophies that gave us Mario 64, Rez, Halo and Half Life 2. Games that changed the face of gaming and the way we see them. Not just because they utilizied their respective hardware but also because they thought out of the box and to give us something new and better than what we have known. There's nothing wrong with what you're saying. That approach has created some great games, but developers should consider pushing beyond their limits in a bid to take gaming in new directions. These new hardwares present the perfect opportunity to do that and at the moment only Ninty and Sony appear to be actively pushing that line. Microsoft seem to have learnt their leasons from the last generation and have taken a very corporate approach to delivering content on their product. This is fine for mass market success, but at some stage I feel they will have to actively seek to push the envelope or run the risk of appearing to be an imitation of companies like Sony and Nintendo.
    Edited by 1 at 27/07/06 @ 15:04

  • DrDamn #144 6 years ago

    "they will have to actively seek to push the envelope"

    I would argue they have with Live. It's superb and something Sony will do exceptionally well to come even close to. It's a distinguishing feature with real tangible benefits for the gamer.

  • Rash' #145 6 years ago

    DrDamn, "I would argue they have with Live. It's superb and something Sony will do exceptionally well to come even close to. It's a distinguishing feature with real tangible benefits for the gamer."

    Agreed. It's a very good model for consumers and Microsoft's business. But should it stop there?

  • Rash' #146 6 years ago

    DrDamn, "I would argue they have with Live. It's superb and something Sony will do exceptionally well to come even close to. It's a distinguishing feature with real tangible benefits for the gamer."

    Additionally, Live isn't a component exclusive to 360. It is available on Xbox. So I could argue that the developement of resourses and knowledge has governed this example of generational leap, rather than any advancement in technology.

  • Rash' #147 6 years ago

    farticusmaximus "I suppose everyone has their own perception of what defines next-gen. For me it's the hardware rather than the software, but there can still be crappy next-gen and good next-gen titles.."

    I'm not being clear. My arguement is that hardware should govern the development in software. Next generation hardware presents developers with the possibility to create next generation software. From what I can see at the moment we have the hardware but not enough is being done to utilize it to create software which can be classified as next generation i.e software that can't be done in the previous generation (in terms of gameplay).

  • DrDamn #148 6 years ago

    I would say Live is better with X360 because of external hardware advances maybe. Greater availability and penetration of broadband, larger hard drives etc have lead to what I now take for granted with my X360. It is seemlessly integrated into every game, in fact this itself is allowed for by advances in hardware as having extra "isolated" processing capacity means the guide stuff can constantly run in the background without affecting game performance. Something Sony is supposed to be doing too as one SPE is reserved for system utilisation.

    The other point I would say is that some of the stuff done on the X360/PS3 we may well have seen done on the previous gen, but it is now being done in a better way. Where on the PS2 and Xbox shortcuts may have been taken the new generation can do properly. Better physics models etc. Something not immediately apparent from first appearances but can make good and subtle positive differences to the gameplay experience.

    For example BF2MC. The X360 version appears to be a simple graphical update to the XBox/PS2 versions. However they switched the physic engine to a better and more complex Havok model. This resulted in better vehicle handling.

  • cyber_nicco #149 6 years ago

    @Rash' @DrDamn

    It seems to me, that your disagreement (if there is one) is largely based on semantics. As in, what is Next Gen? I see both your points, but I tend to agree with DrDamn. 'Next Gen' was a media, then later, an industry buzzword. It was coined to refer to new hardware platforms, as competing console manufacturers tend to release their new platforms in tandem (at least close to one another). It became easy to think of them as new waves of hardware. So, I think it is best to keep with the spirit of the original intention and think of it in terms of the new batch of hardware.

    On the other hand, I understand Rash's argument. However, I would have to consider what he (or she) is referring to as 'Next Gen software'. The only reason why I think that this might be a hard concept to embrace is that software doesn't tend to be released in tandem by the majority of publishers, and all with notable advances. As an example, after this round of hardware is firmly entrenched, when people start talking about 'Next Gen" hardware, I will know that they are referring to the next round of hardware from the console manufactures. If they said something about "Next Gen" software, I would really have no idea what - if anything - that meant. Hardware advances are much easier to quantify objectively.

    This is not to be an argument against what Rash' said - I think there were good points, but I think it adds some confustion to the whole argument to start using the term "Next Gen" to mean something different from what it is generally accepted to mean by the industry, the media, and by consumers.

    That being said, I think some software publishers are making the line less clear by referring to their games as being "Next Gen", just because it was designed for "Next Gen" hardware...
    Edited by 2 at 27/07/06 @ 17:26

  • miiiguel #150 6 years ago

    Many people I know, who are not into gaming, bought a 360 just to "show off" their brand new HDTV.

  • Les #151 6 years ago

    From E3 coverage (video's, reports, etc.) it seemed very clear that PS3 had a better pre-launch showing vs. 360 the year before. But all gaming journo's, including EG, made the mistake again by comparing apples with oranges and therefore were extremely critical of the PS3 (like they had been the year before on 360). Maybe the gaming media felt they were wrong in 2005 and had to make up for it or maybe they just never learn...

  • Rash' #152 6 years ago

    DrDamn, Your point about Live is exactly what I mean. Better resourses (hard drive, in your example) and knowledge (greater penetration of broadband) has allowed for a better Live experience on 360. Don't misunderstand me on this point. I think Live is great and online clearly is the way forward for gaming (as both Ninty and Sony would testify), but in terms of taking gaming forward through the creativity of the content provided, I question how much of what's on 360 can be constituded a generational leap from the past gen.

    cyber_nicco, I think the phrase "Next Gen" is clouding the issue. My point is, a game like Smugglers Run, we can say with some confidence, cannot be achieved on the previous generation of consoles, because the PS2 architecture allowed the developer to push the limits in terms of the size of worlds a game of its style can achieve. And this was near the early stages in the system's life. It was clear from the get go that this new hardware could deliver experiences previously thought impossible.

    DrDamn, I don't know the Battlefield series well, but I'm aware that this game on 360 hasn't raised much excitement from many quaters of the gaming press and community. What you say may be true, but if it's not making an impact on the way we see games then surely it relevence is questionable. And even then, this one example is most likely from a list of games, not that large, that can genuinely considered as attempting to push the envelop of what gaming can achieve.

    I understand it's early days and games will surface for the system that will tackle this issue, but my point is at this stage in the the 360's life shouldn't Microsoft be appearing (at least) to look for content that can take advantage of the system's might in a manner they envisioned for the system? I think this what is I mean about their corporate approach. It seems as if they developed the system simply to address the issue of online gaming and not the gaming content that consumers will be going online with. In manys ways that's commendable as it frees developers up to make the games they want. But the early signs suggest that developers are willing to play it safe... at least for the time being. Both Ninty and Sony on the other hand have presented developers with a challenge, to take their creativity in new directions.

  • Calgon #153 6 years ago

    DrDamn: Just out of interest did you count me in the "PS3 POWNZES YOU! SONY IS TEH KING!" brigade?


    Not really, you seem to beable to have a decent discussion atleast, without turning into a slag off match, plus you seem to have some reading comprehension too, rather than ignoring any information I bring forward or hearing what you want to hear.

    edit: about the cell and blue-ray yields... whether they expected to have some problems in the manufacturing process(as its normal with new technologies, it will get better though) 20% isnt acceptable to begin mass production, especially with the price they cost to make. They have had a good while with the delay to work on this, but it doesnt seem to have got them very far yet(which is where the roumer of a downgrade came from, they only have so much time left... it's just a possibility as things stand in many peoples eyes, not just mine. It was raised in that very article I linked to as you pointed out, IBM is in no position to speak for Sony yet, so he was right to say that)

    To be fair this thread has gone off topic and I joined in when the whole "PS3 is gonna have way better games/graphics" nonesense started. I'm sure many here arent as gullable, to take things like that at face value. I figured I might aswell counterbalance that with some information and oppinions of my own to the contrary, since I disagree with alot of that and there was some misinformation being spread by a few.
    Edited by 5 at 27/07/06 @ 20:49

  • Rash' #154 6 years ago

    Calgon, "...there was some misinformation being spread by a few."

    Depends what you term as misinformation. Personally, I think Rein was asked to offer his opinion on the situation and he did that. Clearly, you have opinions different to him, but feel passionately if remarks appear to portary 360 in a negative light. Thats cool. To an extent, it's always good to feel passionately about something, but lets not confuse opinion with misinformation. Finally, your story regarding the SPE yields (which last time I checked did not have a working link to) isn't full public knowledge. I'm well informed on my gaming front and the story you speak of has never risen in any of the numerous highly regarded sites and publications I convene to. So links would be of interest. And a number of them please. One site does not constitute truth (...what it is truth!). Ironically, if you can't present this evidence, then it is you who is offering misinformation!!!
    Edited by 1 at 27/07/06 @ 21:13

  • Calgon #155 6 years ago

    Ninty and Sony on the other hand have presented developers with a challenge, to take their creativity in new directions.


    This is the problem I have with understanding where you get this idea, sure maybe nintendo with the wii-mote will inspire new ideas for games, its just a new controller at the end of the day though but thats something new atleast. Sony on the otherhand? Id have to dissagree with you there, neither have done anymore than the other in this respect. It could be argued that with the powerfull and balanced hardware, along with the equally important tools that MS have provided this time, which are their best yet in many developers eyes, not to mention Live and marketplace, that MS are the ones striving to push developers to venture into new grounds and "push the envelope" as you say.

    You are doing a heck of a alot of speculating it has to be said(making a fuss about alot of nothing, Im guessing you are a loyal Sony fan but you really should apply some of that common sense you speak of) and seeing things in very narrow view. Theres nothing Im seeing on Wii or PS3 thats anymore "next-gen" than what 360 owners are enjoying or looking forward to.
    Edited by 3 at 27/07/06 @ 21:48

  • Calgon #156 6 years ago

    Rash' well-well, where do I begin?...

    First off dont bs about what was said, I never disagreed with what Rein said(was a pretty fair observation by him, because of the delay Sony have been able to give developers more time with near final dev kits than was possible on 360 before launch... but still, MS will have a year head start by the time it releases, I know which position Id want my company to be in), I said some people read to far into it (putting words in his mouth) and seem to think he said something that he didnt(bit like you then!).

    The missinformation I speak of was regarding system power comparisons and general system information, which I know fair amount of, as I frequent many discussion boards, tech sites and the like(and have good understanding of it more importantly), so when I see statements which are unfair or innacurate, I will address them.

    The cell yields again huh?... firstly I provided a respectable link(DrDamn had no trouble reading the article), the person who asked for it(ie. not you in the first place!... you're really grasping at straws here!) was happy enough with it. If you want more sources... google it yourself(dont be lazy, theres quite a few sites that have covered it judging by the results I got last time and I've done my part, you are simply being petty now) , the source was an interview with someone from IBM and recently(there can be no arguements with that). The part about a downgrade which I said from the start was a roumer is in light of the low yields(that wouldnt be something that would go un-noticed for a start if Sony had decided that already, I thought it was pretty obvious though) and that is addressed in the article too.
    Edited by 8 at 28/07/06 @ 00:39

  • Les #157 6 years ago

    Man, I can't wait till November 17th. Hopefully then these 'virtual' discussions stop...

    Whichever console will prove to be most powerful, it's a fact that PS3 games six months before launch looked better than 360 games six months before launch. Whether that means anything, we'll see at the end of the year.

  • BartonFink #158 6 years ago

    And well they should be since it was supposed to launch in March.

    Wow, lots of fantosterone in this one very amusing.

  • miiiguel #159 6 years ago

    @ LES:
    "Man, I can't wait till November 17th."

    That's exaclty what 5 million people thought, one can only be so much retro...
    Edited by 1 at 28/07/06 @ 10:13

  • Rash' #160 6 years ago

    Calgon, From my understanding the PS3 is a development of the philosophy behind the PS2 i.e. to develop games differently. This resulted in many demoaning the initial learning curve of the PS2, but (how many times have I said this before) as time has shown these teething problems made way for results which at the beginning of the system life appeared to be impossible (Anti-aliasing, anyone). For arguements sake lets say that Xenos IS slightly better than RSX. It is well documented that The Cell is substancially more powerful than Xenon. The combined strength of PS3's GPU and CPU is therefore greater than 360's equivalent. So then the challenge is to overcome that initial learning curve. How developers do that will come down to the creativity of the individual development houses. How this will impact their output remains to be seen but clearly Sony are leading the way by demonstrating the ambitions of the title they're publishing.

    Which leads me very nicely into your next point:

    "Theres nothing Im seeing on Wii or PS3 thats anymore "next-gen" than what 360 owners are enjoying or looking forward to."

    I have one very simple example; Heavenly Sword. An intricate combat system of a similar fashion to that of Ninja Gaiden, with one generational difference; it will have battles with far larger groups of enemies. And by larger I mean battlions. And in far larger environments. That demo from E3, believe me, is just the beginning of what it means to be next gen. I can proved links if you have any difficulties following me, which again leads me very nicely to my final point; the evidence I requested.

    The reason I haven't searched it myself is simply because you've been discredited earlier on this topic by someone for not backing up your claims, so sorry, but I have no faith in your story and I have no intention of wasting my time trying to prove a story I believe not to be true. You feel passionately about it in this discussion so it should be you who up holds his integrity by providing the evidence. Until you do, I'm done with you.
    Edited by 1 at 30/07/06 @ 02:45

  • 2099net #161 6 years ago

    I'm sorry Rash, but this isn't a specific dig at you, but I just don't understand what your are saying about next gen games.

    Both examples you have quoted are - like current 360 games - just existing games with more power.

    I may have been a little stand-offish when I compared Motorstorm to Waverace 64, but the the point I made is correct. It's just a racing game with more physics. Waverace has physics. Gran Turismo has physics. Colin McRae has physics. Motostorm isn't anything that spectacular IMO, especially as the much talked about "deformation" hasn't even been implemeneted yet. So for now, I'm labeling it as another example of Sony's "All mouth, no trousers" marketing. And too be honest, even if it does have the deformation and A.I. implemented to perfection, it's still no great advance over similar current gen games.

    Going back to WaveRace was well ahead of its time both in ambition and achievement - and it will still be a bigger achievement than a fully functional Motorstorm considering the hardware Ninty had to work on.

    As for the much touted Heavenly Sword, even you yourself say it's Ninja Gaiden with more opponents and perhaps a slightly more advanced combat system.

    You say PGR3 was just a current gen game with more polygons and no advancement, but you've obviously not played it online. Without playing it online your literally all missing out on 50% of the game. There's only so much innovation you can fit into a game's developement schedule, and with PGR3 that innovation was concentrated in the online aspect. Evolution have decided to deform the ground. Bizzare decided to set-up a complete online service which goes beyond simply player vs player racing.

    As for THE POWER OF CELL® many are not convinced. Cell has been designed for floating point calculations and streaming data - applications not used in game development much. In fact, they're applications used in DVD players and other multi-media devices a lot more. To me, it seems like Sony have put more value in the Blu-Ray player than the actual game box. Can you get developers to switch to Cell like thinking and development - yes. Will it necessarily be better for gaming? No (but it could be). The Cell was designed for multi-media, the 360's was designed for general purpose computing and branching. I know which one I'd put my money on at the moment.

    I also seem to remember THE POWER OF CELL® was going to be so mighty it alone would power the "movie like" graphics itself. So why have Sony had to add a dedicated graphics processor to the PS3? Either THE POWER OF CELL® was overestimated, or developers were having trouble developing.

    And ease of Development does count - especially when game development costs millions of dollars. Very few non-first party studios will be willing to slave away for months and months perfecting a PS3 game, if they could create the same game on a 360, PC, Wii in shorter time. Because time is money. You try funding a team of 60 developers for an additional 5 months and see how much it costs you.

    Ultimately the power of the actual chipset doesn't matter that much, because nobody will be pushing the hardware close to it's maximum for the lifetime of the consoles. I doubt any game will require physics calculations anywhere close to the maxiumums of either system for years. Be it for thousands of enemies, ground deformation or fewer enemies with more complex fighting.

    You know the Xbox had substantially less processing power than the PS2 don't you? But that never stopped it from being able to keep up with the physics in current gen games which were cross-platform.

  • Rash' #162 6 years ago

    2099net,

    "As for the much touted Heavenly Sword, even you yourself say it's Ninja Gaiden with more opponents and perhaps a slightly more advanced combat system."

    The E3 demo showed environmental physics, large groups of enemies, a complex combat system put together in a high detailed world. From that list only the last two are true of Ninja Gaiden and even then neither the detailed world nor the combat system is near the quality of HS. And as I've already state this a just a hint at what's to come.

    "It's just a racing game with more physics. Waverace has physics. Gran Turismo has physics. Colin McRae has physics. Motostorm isn't anything that spectacular IMO, especially as the much talked about "deformation" hasn't even been implemeneted yet."

    The deformation is implemented and plain to see in any footage you care to check on the web (if you want links I'd be happy to provide (*cough* hint *cough* calgon *cough*)). There are multiple routes in each race. The lighter four wheeled cars drive slower in mud, the larger don't but aren't as mobile. The two wheeled vehicles are the most mobile and have the most freedom of routes but are more susceptible to track deformations left by other vehicles. The lighter four wheeled are less prone to this, though still have difficulties while the larger vehicles' weight makes such problems less evident. This is just a hint of the type of strategy being involved in the game. You call it "just physics". I call physics not possible in the previous gen. Obviously the developers are attempting for a clear generational leap, with their gameplay design. You say PGR on Live is the next gen experience. True. But it's the next gen experience with last gen design. With Motor Storm, Evolution are attempting to create a next gen design which can be taken into this online environment you speak of.

    I don't see where the confusion is really:

    "My arguement is that hardware should govern the development in software. Next generation hardware presents developers with the possibility to create next generation software. From what I can see at the moment we have the hardware but not enough is being done to utilize it to create software which can be classified as next generation i.e software that can't be done in the previous generation (in terms of gameplay)."

    "As for THE POWER OF CELL® many are not convinced."

    As they weren't with The Emotion Engine...

    "Cell has been designed for floating point calculations and streaming data - applications not used in game development much. In fact, they're applications used in DVD players and other multi-media devices a lot more."

    Exactly! Which is what the PS3 is meant to be.

    "The Cell was designed for multi-media, the 360's was designed for general purpose computing and branching. I know which one I'd put my money on at the moment."

    At this point I'd like you to explain to me the importance of a general purpose CPU in a device not design for general purpose applications. Personally I call it not well considered. Couple that with the fact the PS3 is: 1. More powerful than the 360 and 2. less difficult to develop for then PS2, I'd have to say PS3 is a system better designed for it's overall goal: the central multi-media device for the home. 360 started out with that brief but with Sony's threat Microsoft paired down their ideas. Now they're revisiting those ideas in the form of add-ons... Peter Moore should really know better after his experience at Sega.

    "And ease of Development does count - especially when game development costs millions of dollars."

    Once again, an agruement from the PS2 era. We all know how that panned out.

  • Calgon #163 6 years ago

    Rash': The magical Sony design philosophy huh? *shakes head*

    With the PS2 the improvement between 1st gen - last gen software was more to do with how BADLY it started(the teething troubles with parallisation aside.. it was an excuse that could only last so long for Sony and its devs) thanks to the innefficient design, poor tools and support (btw the AA on PS2 is still none existant to weak... remember the fuss that was made about normal mapping making it onto PS2? compared to what PS2 fans recieved it was laughable, they soon shut up about that huh?). Devs were forced to get right down to the metal, spend alot of time and money learning every in and out of what made the machine tick at the very lowest level -- this was something Xbox devs never had to do, partly because MS requested this and partly because the machine was already way more capable using the custom DX API-- Imagine then what results Xbox devs could have got spending the same amount of time and money that PS2 devs did on low level programming, optimisations, shorcuts ect... "untapped potential" FTW!!! \0/. So in short with that philosophy devs can get more out of the hardware yes! but it applies to ANY hardware(because they would all benefit from that), this isnt ideal for devs at all, (which also applies to IOE - In Order Execution) it takes longer and costs more doing things this way, its better to provide the powerful, efficient, flexible hardware and the tools and support that devs are asking for to make developing on the machine a less painfull experience(MS have done all of this we will have to wait and see on Sony.. like you say history tells us...).

    It is well documented that The Cell is substancially more powerful than Xenon. The combined strength of PS3's GPU and CPU is therefore greater than 360's equivalent.

    No this is what Sony themselves hope their fans will percieve, the the two have distinctly different architectures, all that matters once you account for bottlenecks, efficiency ect. is what kind of GAMES are these machines capable of. Heavenly sword could easily be done and better on 360, you are fooling yourself if you think otherwise(again there's not alot special about it technically sorry). You are placing alot of your beleifs on the bases of Cell being some super CPU, alot of whats in there is not going to give it any advantage over the 360's Xenon where it matters; in-game circumstances. Xenon has substancially more general purpose power and hardware programmability, which makes it easier to program for and also much more flexible too(flexible power), with Cell you are limited in how you can use the power it has(even in the types of FP operations it supposedly excels at which is why those figures Sony gave should be taken with a pinch of salt).

    Comparing Cell and Xenon isnt quite as simple as you'd like to beleive, in some ways Xenon is more powerfull and in others Cell is, which is the most ideal CPU for a Games Console? well I'd opt for Xenon at this point, Cell has alot to prove(many are doubtfull that its as good as it was intended to be in the areas Sony claim it will excell). Xenon will bench better across Integer/real FP/ and Dot Product processing and few other areas too, which is why you shouldn't be expecting the PS3 to trounce 360 in physics. This is because even AGEIA -- a company thats been cosying with Sony and comparing their PPU construction with the Cell from the start -- have said themselves in their original white papers, that REAL TIME Physics requires high levels of interger processing power, a tremendous amount of branch prediction and would benefit greatly from OOOE(which niether Xenon or Cell can truely be considered as). Its fair to say Xenon has the first two points in its favour but Xenon also has OOOE on its vmx units which helps considerably as it gets the benefit of specialized parrellel processors with Out Of Order execution...

    **on a side note - the final reveiws of AGEIAs PPU suggest it isn't going down too well either... minimal impact on realism or visual improvement and a lower FPS for $200... heres one: [link url=http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=244&type=expert &pid=9**
    ]http://ww w.pcper.com/article.php?aid=244...[/link]

    There may be some examples where Cell can leverage some of the graphics processing (pixel/vertex math ect) but how much it can do and how much it can spare once everything else in the game has taken its share of the CPU power remains to be seen(I and many others are skeptical as to whether it is worth it).

    I have one very simple example; Heavenly Sword. An intricate combat system of a similar fashion to that of Ninja Gaiden, with one generational difference; it will have battles with far larger groups of enemies. And by larger I mean battlions. And in far larger environments.

    I nearly missed that :D, you do realise that 360 could do all of that for you too? Plus, guess what?...
    This takes more memory and when all is said and done, 360 has more to play with, even if PS3 devs take the less than optimal appoach of using more than 256mb(thanks to the architecture) it wont be as fast and there will still be less of it(thanks the the OS).
    Edited by 8 at 31/07/06 @ 00:00

  • Calgon #164 6 years ago

    The reason I haven't searched it myself is simply because you've been discredited earlier on this topic by someone for not backing up your claims

    This is wishfull thinking on your part, no my deluded little friend: DrDamn asked for the source where I got this, I provided it and the discussion was done with. You come back pretend you were in the discussion, which you werent and use it as a means of discrediting everything I say(which would still be moronic even if it were true... but thats desperation for you!). Never the less I will explain the discussion to you: I commented on the Low Cell yields as reported by various sites...

    http://ww w.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?... http://ar stechnica.com/news.ars/post/200... http://ww w.reghardware.co.uk/2006/07/13/...http://gi zmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertai... http://di gg.com/gaming_news/PS3_Cell_yie...

    ...The original source was from an interview with Tom Reeves, IBM’s VP of semiconductor and technology services in this interview he slipped up by saying something he shouldnt(against IBMs policy they have since then told him to say they never release product specific yield information... oops indeed! blantant damage control). Heres the actual quote:

    Electronic News: What’s the defining factor that makes some chips better than others?
    Reeves: Defects. It becomes a bigger problem the bigger the chip is. With chips that are one-by-one and silicon germanium, we can get yields of 95 percent. With a chip like the Cell processor, you’re lucky to get 10 or 20 percent. If you put logic redundancy on it, you can double that. **you can claim it was just an example but cell is exactly the type of chip he is talking about and he would have said if Cell was any different, plus even before he said that there were roumers of low yields even at this late stage** It’s a great strategy, and I’m not sure anyone other than IBM is doing that with logic. Everybody does it with DRAM. There are always extra bits in there for memory. People have not yet moved to logic block redundancy, though.

    [link url=http://www.reed-electronic s.com/electronicnews/article/CA6350202.html?industryid=21365
    ]http://ww w.reed-electronics.com/electron...[/link]

    Thats all there is to it, you can let it go now! and remember to read before making any assumptions. You cleary havent been following that discussion or youd know it ended ages ago, plus Ive been more than fair about it, admitting that nothing has come of it yet and IBMs manufacturing processes will improve as they get used to it, same with any new design but will it be soon enough?

    I realise you have trouble being objective(feeling so strongly about your beleifs in Sony) and that you are a Sony fanboy at heart(no matter what consoles you own... its plain to see) but you are doing yourself no favours; talking about things before you understand them.
    Edited by 3 at 30/07/06 @ 21:25

  • Rash' #165 6 years ago

    "Heavenly sword could easily be done and better on 360, you are fooling yourself if you think otherwise(again there's not alot special about it technically sorry)."

    I'm sorry, I just had to stop reading your post calgon at the above point and say: don't apologise. You just haven't got a clue making the above sort of statements. And this from someone who wants me to believe he/she knows their tech stuff... *shakes head in disbelief*

  • Rash' #166 6 years ago

    "This is wishfull thinking on your part, no my deluded little friend: DrDamn asked for the source where I got this, I provided it and the discussion was done with. You come back pretend you were in the discussion, which you werent and use it as a means of discrediting everything I say(which would still be moronic even if it were true... but thats desperation for you!). Never the less I will explain the discussion to you: I commented on the Low Cell yields as reported by various sites..."

    I'm not back tracking but I distinctly remember a witty discrediting remark directed at you, Calgon. I remember because before it you sounded like you knew what you were talking about and after it became clear you could just be a well inform fanboy.

  • Calgon #167 6 years ago

    Im sorry Rash' every post you've made trying to convice us that Sony is delivering real next gen games where others arent is EXTREMELY unconvincing to say the least(and thats being nice... others would have just said BULLSHIT!). You are entitled to your own opinions but I know which system I'll be getting and enjoying the most, Sony will yet again fail to deliver on their promises and their loyal fans will make excuses or plain deny it but whats new. I just know which system looks the best to me, which system looks to be offering the features I need and which system has the games I want most. To say Sony have had a year extra(you are right hardware later to market is usually more powerfull but NOT always... that would be hugely over generalising the market) and are delivering a system thats equal at best to its nearest rival says alot for how good MS have done this time around. I havent got a 360 yet but Im deffinatly going to get one(and then maybe a wii later down the line).
    Edited by 1 at 30/07/06 @ 20:54

  • Rash' #168 6 years ago

    http://ww w.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?...

    http://ar stechnica.com/news.ars/post/200...

    http://ww w.reghardware.co.uk/2006/07/13/...

    http://gi zmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertai...

    [link url=http://di gg.com/gaming_news/PS3_Cell_yie...
    ]http://di gg.com/gaming_news/PS3_Cell_yie...[/link]

    These links are useless. Only the gizmodo.com works and that's a cheap news in brief style article. This doesn't prove much. Please check your links. Your wasting my time.

  • Rash' #169 6 years ago

    [link url=http://ww w.reed-electronics.com/electron...
    ]http://ww w.reed-electronics.com/electron...[/link]

    This is fine, but as I said hardly shocking exposure. Two sites of which only one is barely worth mentioning. No Gamestop, IGN, Kikizo, Guardian Unlimited, Edge Online, CNet, Joystick, not even Eurogamer. I have a consistant and reliable list of sites which I'm confident will supply me with the info I NEED TO KNOW. The above site (which at the moment is the only one worth mentioning) I've never heard of.

  • Rash' #170 6 years ago

    "Sony will yet again fail to deliver on their promises and their loyal fans will make excuses or plain deny it but whats new."

    Thank you. You're biased.

  • Calgon #171 6 years ago

    I'm not back tracking but I distinctly remember a witty discrediting remark directed at you, Calgon.

    You know how stupid that makes you look? "I think I remember someone saying you are wrong... cant remember what he said or who it was but I think it happened..."

    what a prat!

    These links are useless.

    Copy and paste this is a fault of EGs website not mine... and I posted the quote from Tom Reves in there too... you are the only one wasting time here. You were completly out of your league from the start but you continued anyway offering nothing but repitition of old decredited arguements. You are the type of person I described earlier, I provide sound information and facts for my arguements and you either ignore it or go for a complete cop out reply like the heavenly sword one.

    edit: not that I should bother because you are wasting my time here, but I'll try and fix the links... why would I make that up you loon? I dont get you at all... why do feel its so important to any of your arguements?(its not related to any of them *see desperate*)

    Fixed!
    Edited by 2 at 30/07/06 @ 22:47

  • Rash' #172 6 years ago

    "...you are right hardware later to market is usually more powerfull but NOT always... that would be hugely over generalising the market"

    Fanboy not wanting to see common sense... shocking! Knowing tech stuff doesn't mean you know your stuff. It just means you can talk yourself out of a difficult stop with techno mumbo jumbo. I enough to know when people are trying to play a fast one.

  • Lex_Luthor #173 6 years ago

    Rash, do yourself a favour, don't bother trying to argue/reason with anti-fanboys, you're only giving them what they want.

  • Calgon #174 6 years ago

    Thank you. You're biased.

    Oh do I really need to point that out about youself? hypocracy at its finest!

    The difference between you and me is I can remain objective in a discussion that warrants it and I actually know what Im talking about. You on the other hand well...
    Edited by 1 at 30/07/06 @ 22:17

  • Rash' #175 6 years ago

    "what a prat!"

    Now you're just discrediting yourself. No intelligent rebuttal what so ever. I understand now why so few waste time with you. You can't see sense and when people try to showyou, you throw insults at them. *shakes head in continued disbelief*

  • Calgon #176 6 years ago

    Rash' no rash you are assuming too much based on very little... "its coming out later so its got to be more powerful". I on the other hand would prefer to look at what the macnhines are capable of, which option do you think is more sensible?

  • Rash' #177 6 years ago

    "Rash, do yourself a favour, don't bother trying to argue/reason with anti-fanboys, you're only giving them what they want."

    Your kidding me right. You think this imbecile isn't a fanboy. And above all else you think is anti-fanboy. This is a joke right? His the biggest fanboy I've come across on this entire site.

  • Lex_Luthor #178 6 years ago

    "Oh do I really need to point that out about youself? hypocracy at its finest!"

    You're a fine one to talk about hypocrisy Calgon, the amount of trolling you do in PS3 threads, and yet you'll happily attack people criticising Xbox 360 and/or it's games for 'trolling'.

    "Your kidding me right. You think this imbecile isn't a fanboy. And above all else you think is anti-fanboy. This is a joke right? His the biggest fanboy I've come across on this entire site."

    Oh, I see where you're coming from, totally. He's a total MS fanboy. I just mean arguing with him is a waste of time, as you can no doubt see by now.
    Edited by 1 at 30/07/06 @ 21:20

  • Rash' #179 6 years ago

    "Rash' no rash you are assuming too much based on very little... "its coming out later so its got to be more powerful". I on the other hand would prefer to look at what the macnhines are capable of, which option do you think is more sensible?"

    The one that doesn't resort to adolescent insults. You think yours is more intelligent because you roam the net looking for speculation on things that no one knows about. Your testing my patients my friend. Your wasting time if you think a hardware that not only has a completely different architecture, but a complete different approach to development that onbody followly understands, is in anyway in position to stand such pointless technical comparisons. Only unintelligent fanboys resort to such measures to make their points. I'm using common sense because you have nothing else to stand on. I've done my research, so don't underestimate me my friend, everything you post is at best informed speculation. Time will answer which is technical better. But... it is fun rubbing up, as you say, prats like you up the wrong way.

  • Calgon #180 6 years ago

    *wonders if Lex is actually Rash' desperate for back up*

    ...the amount of trolling you do in PS3 threads...

    Not alot at all, its rare I comment on PS3 articles(let alone troll, infact you could probably count on one hand the PS3 articles Ive posted in), this was in the 360 news section for one! the only troll here seems to be Rash' others seem to be able to have decent discussion rather than resort to ignorrance and hypocracy(the reason I vented some of that frustration.. its like talking to a brick wall, then he begins launching claims of fanboyness, how predictable). It all depends on the way in which the person conducts the discussion with me, most dont seem to have problem with me as far as I know(sure there are a few but I can do without dribbling fanboys and if any of them dont fall into that category well thats life, dont loose any sleep over it because I assure you I wont :D) and I'm not going to say Im the most liked member either(I couldnt care less).
    Edited by 5 at 30/07/06 @ 22:28

  • Rash' #181 6 years ago

    Lex_Luthor, "Oh, I see where you're coming from, totally. He's a total MS fanboy. I just mean arguing with him is a waste of time, as you can no doubt see by now."

    Yeah, I know. But sometimes its too much fun reading their bull and have them endless try to convince me their biased views are right. I've learnt though that informed fanboys are the worst. They'll just troll on and on and finally resort to techno babble to save dignity. You're right it's time to end this thing.

  • Calgon #182 6 years ago

    Rash' its as clear as day to me you have completely no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the 360 (especially) vs PS3 debate... you were the one claiming to know which is the more powerfull(by some margine you said), I was just illustrating it to the rest here and yourself that you really dont(so just give it up). Yes time will tell, so pipe down and leave the discussions on the technical aspects to those who know what they are talking about, Im not trying to tell you to abandon Sony (infact buy a PS3, go on and pre-order its obviously something you care alot about) but dont think I wont correct you when you try any of that in the 360 sections again. The only one trying to save face here is you.. the reason you brought up the cell yields again and again even though they were completely unrelated to anything you've said --other than your personal attacks against me--, all of what I said regaurding the technical aspects was completely valid btw so there was no reason for me to carry this on other than trying to make you see sense(utterly hopeless.. never mind), its been fun though :D \0/
    Edited by 2 at 30/07/06 @ 21:52

  • Rash' #183 6 years ago

    "Rash' its as clear as day to me you have completely no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the 360 (especially) vs PS3 debate... you were the one claiming to know which is the more powerfull(by some margine you said), I was just illustrating it to the rest here and yourself that you really dont(so just give it up). Yes time will tell, so pipe down and leave the discussions on the technical aspects to those who know what they are talking about, Im not trying to tell you to abandon Sony (infact buy a PS3, go on and pre-order its obviously something you care alot about) but dont think I wont correct you when you try any of that in the 360 sections again. The only one trying to save face here is you.. the reason you brought up the cell yields again and again even though they were completely unrelated to anything you've said --other than your personal attacks against me--, all of what I said regaurding the technical aspects was completely valid btw so there was no reason for me to carry this on other than trying to make you see sense(utterly hopeless.. never mind), its been fun though :D \0/ "

    Ha, ha! Just don't loss any sleep over it!!!

  • mike_mgoblue #184 6 years ago

    For the beneift of the Sony shareholders, Sony Computer Entertainment should do what Sega did; they need to forget about hardware risks and simply concentrate on designing software for other game systems.

    The Playstation 3 is designed very poorly when compared to the Xbox 360--its primary competitor. The PS3 still uses RAM similar to the PS2, PS1, Sega Saturn and 3DO that is not Unified, whereas the Xbox 360 uses RAM that is Unified, just like Windows Vista.

    The Xbox 360 has three times the General Purpose CPU power that the PS3 has. The Xbox 360 can display 500 million polygons per second, whereas the PS3 can only display 275 million polygons per second. You can read about some of these comparisons at the following website: [link url=htt p://xbox360.ign.com/articles/617/617951p1.html
    ]http://xb ox360.ign.com/articles/617/6179...[/link]

    To give you a perfect example of why Sony needs to leave the gaming industry, the PS3 was never designed to have a GPU; it was intended to rely exclusively on CPU power. Only when Sony saw Xbox 360 did they realize that it was necessary to have a CPU and a GPU. The major difference is that Microsoft used ATI GPU technology that will not be released as a PC graphics card until Windows Vista is released. On the other hand, because Sony was forced to make a rushed adjustment, they needed to use four-year old technology from Nvidia PC graphics cards.

    The only other company that ever made a last minute hardware adjustment like this was Sega with the Saturn game system. The consequence was that the Saturn was very difficult to program, and it still wasn't capable of performing as well as the original Playstation, even though it cost $100 more. This situation is nearly identical to what has happened to Sony and the Playstation 3.

    Sony needs to do their loyal shareholders a favor and leave the videogame industry as a hardware manufacturer. Sony needs to concentrate on publishing videogame content for multiple systems.