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Molyneux talks combat games News
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Ellie Gibson
In a speech delivered at the Leipzig GCDC this morning, Lionhead boss Peter Molyneux has declared it's time to revolutionise combat games - and guess what, he's got some ideas on how to go about that.
But don't go expecting that revolution to occur with Fable 2, however. A cautious Molyneux - no doubt wary after previous PR, er, mishaps - informed the audience that nothing in his speech would be "to do with Fable 2; these are just some of the inspirations going through our minds at Lionhead".
Oh. Right. Seems strange they've spent all this time talking about how to revolutionise combat in a completely random context when they should probably get on with making their new game, but there you are.
Anyway, Molyneux began his speech by identifying what he sees as the problems with traditional combat games - namely, the fact that they're all about hit points, the weapons don't tend to do much damage and are generally a bit rubbish, and the environments, such as those in Street Fighter II for example, are meaningless.
Molyneux even took the opportunity to slag off one of his own games, stating: "It's a bit repetitive, isn't it, especially in Fable. You're pressing that button, and you could probably just close your eyes and keep on pressing it..." Instead, Molyneux believes, combat should be "dramatic, varied and innovational."
In fact, it should be more like the combat is in films. To demonstrate this, Molyneux showed a clip from Kill Bill - namely the bit where The Bride takes out the Crazy 88 in just 88 seconds with her super-sharp sword. But game developers, Molyneux observed, "Do not treat a sword like a real thing; it's like a big squashy thing. And that's not what we want to present, or what Hollywood presents as combat."
Time then for another Kill Bill clip - the O-Ren-Ishi boss fight. Molyneux observed that it goes on for the same length of time as the Crazy 88 battle, but O-Ren is defeated with just one move in the end - and one-kill hits is something he'd like to see more of in combat games.
He's also keen on one-button moves, arguing, "Around 80 per cent of people use one button anyway." But to keep things interesting, Molyneux continued, that one button should do different things depending on context - so if you're next to a beer bottle, pressing the button might cause your character to smash it over an enemy's head; or, if you're underneath a chandelier, your character might leap up and grab it, swinging both feet forward to kick a baddie in the chest.
One thing that button won't do, in Molyneux's ideal world, is block. "Do we really need a block button?" he asked the audience. He conceded that the idea of getting rid of it is "not popular" with the team at Lionhead, but added, "It's something we are still playing with."
So there you have it - if Molyneux had his way, combat games would be all about one-button combats, one-hit kills and environmental action, with no boring old blocking or hit points system to contend with. Concluding his speech, he stated: "I'm sure a lot of you think this is a very foolish endeavour, but I think it's something worth getting on with" - before reiterating that nothing in his speech referred to anything we can expect to see in Fable 2. Righto...
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I would just like to point out that the Crazy 88 fight goes on for about 20 minutes and the end fight probably 5 minutes. Also the final fight is over in two hits on O-Ren-Ishi not one. The bride also takes one hit so really 3 hits in total. Does any of this damage his point? No idea but it probably grants me an annually retentive badge of honor of some kind.
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Dead__Man__Typing
22/08/06 @ 12:20
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Innovation in combat systems. Sure we'd all like to see it, but not from Big Pete.
Leave combat to Team Ninja, Capcom and any other developer who's known for making combat games. A one button for any situation approach would be impossible to impliment and even harder to balance difficulty. How would an enemy hit you if you can attack/escape in any situation by pressing one button. Molyneux needs to keep his mouth shut, except when talking about his actual experience with making a game after it's been released. That's interesting. |
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retr0gamer
22/08/06 @ 12:25
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One-hit kills? I'm sure most people have already played Bushido Blade and Barbarian already. As for using the enviroment, play some powerstone. Nothing new Molyneaux. Just because the combat in your games is crap there doesn't mean companies like Capcom, Konami and Tecmo aren't making excellent combat games with inteeligent combat systems.
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To be sure, Molyneux is an irritating git at times, but he does have some points here.
I don't think what he's suggesting should become the norm for all games but certainly some of the things that he's suggesting I would like to see. It's true, combat in games can be incredibly dull and feel a bit mindless and restricted. Pulling off something like the Crazy 88 fight in a game would just be fantastic. Hopefully the Wii can deliver varied combat of that nature with the unique control that it provides at some stage. I mean, can you imagine being able to use the katana in Dead Rising by swinging around a controller and having it represented on screen? I thing that would be ridiculous fun. Yeah I wouldn't set about changing all combat in games as we know it but if some people provided alternatives to what is on offer and did it in a tight, well designed package overall I wouldn't have any problems with it at all. |
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(Deleted some comments, less rants make a better world)
Molyneux has a point, WOW. BUT why are people listening to him regarding games he has never really made... ever. He's been a guy making games where the players interaction has been several layers above the character actions. The guys who have realized the things he has somehow realized now have made games such as Devil May Cry, Viewtiful Joe, Internation Karate, Prince of Persia.... heck hundreds of games and tens of game designers.
Edited 2 times,
most recently on 22/08/06 @ 13:56
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Can you imagine a game where you press only one button to string up a long list of combo attacks.
Yes. Mark of Kri. Not really one button, they actually thought about it a bit further. One button per enemy. Press Circle for the enemy in front, then square for the enemy to the right. The player character makes one attack and then another in a combination.
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 22/08/06 @ 13:35
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groovychainsaw
22/08/06 @ 12:47
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Bushido blade was the best for this though - He may have a point. Me and my mate used to spend about 2 minutes circling each other, looking for an opening, a trip, then wham! - lopped off a head, that was it, all over in one hit, whilst the snow fell around - There has never been combat like that since.
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CordableTuna
22/08/06 @ 12:58
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It's interesting that he speaks about this, though. Molyneux's games aren't necessarily the best, but often they lead the way and fighting games are a very stale genre at the moment. The current leaders, Team Ninja for example, have found their winning formula and hell will freeze over before they'll try to innovate.
So, let's hope Molyneux releases a half baked fighting game with lots of innovation and let the followers fix it up. |
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was it bushido blade that was a bit like that - combat could go on for ages or be over in seconds depending on when the killer blow struck. plus you could throw sand in peoples eyes, slit someone's through before the fight officially began, or hide behind a tree
though it did have blocking and needed a lot of buttons edited to say I should have read all the comments first as seems a few peeps spotted this point first/too
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most recently on 22/08/06 @ 14:02
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The only problem with Bushido blade was that it took longer to load into a fight than the fight lasted... and any game where you spend more time staring at a loading screen than actually playing it is automatically crap in my book :-(
Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed playing Bushido Blade - it's just you didn't get to play for long before you were shown another hideously long loading screen. Rather ironic that the better you were at the game, the quicker the fights were over, the less time you spent playing the game, the greater the ratio of loading time: playing time and therefore the less fun it is... :-( |
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groovychainsaw
22/08/06 @ 13:09
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Well, that is true, nostalgia does tend to sand over the flaws, but it was still a unique game. The main point is that the game implemented a combat system close to what Peter Molyneux seems to be describing, although it still required many buttons/stances to add (much needed) depth.
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Re - one button combats - Urban Reign has a great system where most offensive attacks are carried out with one button, either on its own or with a direction to denote high, low etc... (There are still separate buttons for grapples, dodges, running etc.) Works pretty well in my view - if you have the patience for it, Urban Reign is a greatly under-rated title.
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"Oh. Right. Seems strange they've spent all this time talking about how to revolutionise combat in a completely random context when they should probably get on with making their new game, but there you are."
I firmly believe in some people's ability to be elsewhere while the rest of their software development company continue making their next game. I think I read it on the internet somewhere. |
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I'd love a combat game (or indeed would work in various genres) where you were abstracted from the action a bit - essentially you controlled the characters AI motivations and got to watch what the character did as a result.
So in a fighting game control his aggression, defence, hand-to-hand or weapon play, etc. Would need a fab AI engine but it would do a couple of things - allow for a lot more moves to be used in the course of a game without having to spend 10 years learning a complex "simon says" just to make your character do what you want it to, and also free up the game camera to display the action from view points that would otherwise be impossible to play the game from if you were directly controlling the character - more like action film direction. And you can quote me on that when Lionhead release "abstacted fighter 3 - the return of the Jos" |
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Bushido had a 1 hit kill system so the ideas have been around for a while.
Context sensitive physics based fighting rather than set animations would allow for fluid fighting mechanics. [edit]See, others remember Bushido Blade too, I remember and uninspired sequal with health bars flopped
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 22/08/06 @ 14:37
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Oh. Right. Seems strange they've spent all this time talking about how to revolutionise combat in a completely random context when they should probably get on with making their new game, but there you are.
Ah, so they only have one game in development then eh? Game concepts often start before previous projects end. |
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"No block and one kill hits... so how does that work then? o_0 "
Well if the character is given AI routines to the effect of "defend yourself to the best of your abilities with whatever you've got to hand at the time" and as long as the AI is robust enough, the rest will take care of itself. I thing thats what hes getting at. |
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NthSimulachum
22/08/06 @ 13:54
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Maybe not blocking (since it's a bit of a cop out mostly), but deflections and reversals would be interesting, if done well, with a more intuitive, thumbstick friendly olution than in dead or alive.
A style bar that filled up as you killed baddies in a stylised(not necessarily most destructive) way, and would reward you for not doing the same combo over and over and over. Once it was filled, you could execute one of many crazy stylistic attacks based on context. Also, using the thumbsticks rather than the buttons to offer greater finesse. Imagine the controls for Table Tennis, but Top Spin being power, Bottom Spin being precision, Left Spin being Kick and Right Spin being punch. Allow charging, and placement on the opponents body with the left stick, with the possibility of overshooting, or being more likely to be deflected the long you charged... Or would that be shit? |
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okay...
context sensitive button - God of War If you want to go on a timescale Conkers bad fur day. Want variety in attacking styles three words "Devil May Cry" and WTF "No Block Button" not even an evade button I presume what does he want every combat title next gen to turn into Final Fantasy gone realtime. o_O That must be some good crack he's on. |
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id beat molyneux in a fight.
best fighting technique i ever saw was from a mate of mine, run away and keep them chasing you as long as you can, when the person chasing you is nackered... turn around and kick the fuck outta them. course only works if your faster and fitter :P very good to use with beer bellied taxirank wankers. |
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"Also, using the thumbsticks rather than the buttons to offer greater finesse. Imagine the controls for Table Tennis, but Top Spin being power, Bottom Spin being precision, Left Spin being Kick and Right Spin being punch. Allow charging, and placement on the opponents body with the left stick, with the possibility of overshooting, or being more likely to be deflected the long you charged... "
How do you move? |
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MrChuckles
22/08/06 @ 14:52
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I'm guessing the no block button means the character auto blocks.
It's up to the player to time their attacks so that they don't leave themselves open to attack by attacking at the wrong time and then being hit. Basically he s saying that pressing the attack button performs the most sensible move in the current situation and therefore if you don;t want that move, change the situation you are in. Press 'A' 1. standing far way from enemy, lunge 2. stand near, jab 3. Stand near beer bottle and far from enemy, throw it at them. 4. Stand near beer bottle and near enemy, pick up bottle smash over head. In short, 'when' to press the attack button becomes the gameplay, not 'which' button you press, or which combo of buttons you press. Also, the 1 hit thing does not mean instant kills per se, i'm guessing it means fatigue or manouvering. i.e. Instead of each attack with a sword successfully 'hitting' the enemy with blood spurting out and them continuing (completely unrealistic), each successful attack is blocked, but uses up some of the enemies fatigue, or skill meaning that after X attacks the next hit goes straight through their defence for a coupe d'etat. Would luck much more cinematic and final than 'blap, blap, blap, blap, dead.' Both systems 'could' work, but i don't fancy implementing them. Sorry, just trying to discuss the ideas rather than shoot the man down. |
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His idea is just based on context sensitive actions.
The player character is running and you press X; the player character does a running attack. The player character is standing behind an enemy guard and you press X; the player character backstabs him. The player character is standing by a table and you press X; the player character grabs the enemy character and bash his head into the table. The player character is stealing a car and the driver is resisting and you press X; the player character smashes the drivers head against the door window. The player character is jumping from a rooftop to another rooftop and below him an enemy is standing and you press X; the player character lands on the other rooftop but lets himself fall backwards and land on the enemy character who breaks his fall and dies. The player character is equipped with a big frying pan and next to him a cow is standing and you press X; the player bashes the head of the cow and in a flash the scene turns into a kitchen where the cow has turned into a bunch of steaks ready for frying which the player character starts doing. The player character is surfing the net and suddenly on the screen a big red button with a flashing warning above it is presented and you press X; the universe implodes. Disc game design FTW. I can be hired for the meagre sum of nothing.
Edited 2 times,
most recently on 22/08/06 @ 16:35
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If no block button means auto-block then didn't Ninja Gaiden do that before too?
One button combat - the point still stands - if you're standing near a beer bottle and under a chandelier - which action does your character do - pick up the beer bottle, or swing from the chandelier? I kinda want to know before I press the button. re: "each successful attack is blocked, but uses up some of the enemies fatigue, or skill meaning that after X attacks the next hit goes straight through their defence for a coupe d'etat." That's essentially hit points, with a killing blow though - Mortal Kombat with an automated fatality. Coup de grace perhaps? Although - you could be right - a coup d'etat is one hell of a finishing move :D Sorry, just trying to shoot the man down some more ;) |
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Jesus wept - Here is my Molly impression "Cars pollute the world... it's about time we scrapped them and invented something better... its not popular but I am onto something here... I cant tell you all the secrets, I SO want to, but my team would kill me... I'll just say it's going to amaze the entire world"
Translation. "I'm talking about something countless people have mentioned to me since we started Fable. I've got no bloody idea what we'd really do differently and I dont really play games much. The press love my voice, almost as much as I do. Watch as I hint I'm doing something good and then deliver naff all!" Molly, I Sir challenge you to a delivery duel. |
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MrChuckles
22/08/06 @ 15:56
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he he coup de grace, good point doh...
Yeah, it is hitpoints, but it makes more sense to someone who hasn't played games before. Hit points are still a left over from AD&D, i agree we should have moved from that visual representation by now! If you stranding next to a chandelier and a beer bottle, i would hope the interface would indicate what would happen. Perhaps the bottle has a faint glow until you move nearer to the chandelier when that has? |
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Bushido Blade was great, but outside the hardcore gamer/Nipponophile crowd, who else knew the game by the end (or even the middle) of PSOne's lifespan? There are a lot of apparently good ideas that don't cather all that well to the general (not to be confused with "mainstream") market unless they are prepared, and the whole "sword fights with one hit kills" might well be one of them.
I believe the series could use another go, and the upcoming generation of consoles might well be able to generate skin cuts and damaged clothing in real time, which would be awesome. Imagine something a bit like the Final Flight of the Osiris. Anyway, he does have a point (as usual), but given his recent record I don't think he's the right person to make such a game. |
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