Molyneux talks combat games

By Ellie Gibson Published 22 August, 2006

It's time for a revolution, he says.

In a speech delivered at the Leipzig GCDC this morning, Lionhead boss Peter Molyneux has declared it's time to revolutionise combat games - and guess what, he's got some ideas on how to go about that.

But don't go expecting that revolution to occur with Fable 2, however. A cautious Molyneux - no doubt wary after previous PR, er, mishaps - informed the audience that nothing in his speech would be "to do with Fable 2; these are just some of the inspirations going through our minds at Lionhead".

Oh. Right. Seems strange they've spent all this time talking about how to revolutionise combat in a completely random context when they should probably get on with making their new game, but there you are.

Anyway, Molyneux began his speech by identifying what he sees as the problems with traditional combat games - namely, the fact that they're all about hit points, the weapons don't tend to do much damage and are generally a bit rubbish, and the environments, such as those in Street Fighter II for example, are meaningless.

Molyneux even took the opportunity to slag off one of his own games, stating: "It's a bit repetitive, isn't it, especially in Fable. You're pressing that button, and you could probably just close your eyes and keep on pressing it..." Instead, Molyneux believes, combat should be "dramatic, varied and innovational."

In fact, it should be more like the combat is in films. To demonstrate this, Molyneux showed a clip from Kill Bill - namely the bit where The Bride takes out the Crazy 88 in just 88 seconds with her super-sharp sword. But game developers, Molyneux observed, "Do not treat a sword like a real thing; it's like a big squashy thing. And that's not what we want to present, or what Hollywood presents as combat."

Time then for another Kill Bill clip - the O-Ren-Ishi boss fight. Molyneux observed that it goes on for the same length of time as the Crazy 88 battle, but O-Ren is defeated with just one move in the end - and one-kill hits is something he'd like to see more of in combat games.

He's also keen on one-button moves, arguing, "Around 80 per cent of people use one button anyway." But to keep things interesting, Molyneux continued, that one button should do different things depending on context - so if you're next to a beer bottle, pressing the button might cause your character to smash it over an enemy's head; or, if you're underneath a chandelier, your character might leap up and grab it, swinging both feet forward to kick a baddie in the chest.

One thing that button won't do, in Molyneux's ideal world, is block. "Do we really need a block button?" he asked the audience. He conceded that the idea of getting rid of it is "not popular" with the team at Lionhead, but added, "It's something we are still playing with."

So there you have it - if Molyneux had his way, combat games would be all about one-button combats, one-hit kills and environmental action, with no boring old blocking or hit points system to contend with. Concluding his speech, he stated: "I'm sure a lot of you think this is a very foolish endeavour, but I think it's something worth getting on with" - before reiterating that nothing in his speech referred to anything we can expect to see in Fable 2. Righto...

Picture of Ellie.

About Ellie Gibson

Since joining Eurogamer in the mid 2000s, Ellie has written about subjects as diverse as the fall of Gizmondo, the rise of Hollyoaks actresses in Red Alert games and the noise a bear makes under NSFW circumstances.

Read more articles from Ellie by visiting the Ellie Gibson archive page.

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Comments (59) Latest comment 6 years ago

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  • Tejstar #1 6 years ago

    No block and one kill hits... so how does that work then? o_0

  • Blerk #2 6 years ago

    See? Two minutes at Microsoft and he's already planning a FPS. :-)

  • smelly #3 6 years ago

    Hmmm.. Molyneux telling other people to be inventive...

    When he's spent his entire career remaking the same game...

  • glaeken #4 6 years ago

    I would just like to point out that the Crazy 88 fight goes on for about 20 minutes and the end fight probably 5 minutes. Also the final fight is over in two hits on O-Ren-Ishi not one. The bride also takes one hit so really 3 hits in total. Does any of this damage his point? No idea but it probably grants me an annually retentive badge of honor of some kind.

  • Dead__Man__Typing #5 6 years ago

    Innovation in combat systems. Sure we'd all like to see it, but not from Big Pete.

    Leave combat to Team Ninja, Capcom and any other developer who's known for making combat games. A one button for any situation approach would be impossible to impliment and even harder to balance difficulty. How would an enemy hit you if you can attack/escape in any situation by pressing one button. Molyneux needs to keep his mouth shut, except when talking about his actual experience with making a game after it's been released. That's interesting.

  • retr0gamer #6 6 years ago

    One-hit kills? I'm sure most people have already played Bushido Blade and Barbarian already. As for using the enviroment, play some powerstone. Nothing new Molyneaux. Just because the combat in your games is crap there doesn't mean companies like Capcom, Konami and Tecmo aren't making excellent combat games with inteeligent combat systems.

  • gaselite #7 6 years ago

    To be sure, Molyneux is an irritating git at times, but he does have some points here.

    I don't think what he's suggesting should become the norm for all games but certainly some of the things that he's suggesting I would like to see. It's true, combat in games can be incredibly dull and feel a bit mindless and restricted. Pulling off something like the Crazy 88 fight in a game would just be fantastic. Hopefully the Wii can deliver varied combat of that nature with the unique control that it provides at some stage. I mean, can you imagine being able to use the katana in Dead Rising by swinging around a controller and having it represented on screen? I thing that would be ridiculous fun.

    Yeah I wouldn't set about changing all combat in games as we know it but if some people provided alternatives to what is on offer and did it in a tight, well designed package overall I wouldn't have any problems with it at all.

  • skillian #8 6 years ago

    I agree with the general "what the fuck is he going on about" sentiment here.

    His only salient point is the environments could stand to be used more, but things are going that way anyway with physics and that Jacky Chan game where you swing of chandeliers etc.

  • Eraysor #9 6 years ago

    These are hardly new ideas.

  • groovychainsaw #10 6 years ago

    Bushido blade was the best for this though - He may have a point. Me and my mate used to spend about 2 minutes circling each other, looking for an opening, a trip, then wham! - lopped off a head, that was it, all over in one hit, whilst the snow fell around - There has never been combat like that since.

  • steoc4 #11 6 years ago

    Well I read that and immediately thought 'Bushido Blade'... seems I've already been beaten to that comment though!

    I actually liked Bushido Blade a hell of a lot more than most fighting games so I wouldn't mind seeing a new game with similar gameplay.

  • WrongShui #12 6 years ago

    I wish he'd shut up and make Syndicate 3.

  • mingster #13 6 years ago

    Bushido Blade 1 hit kills ftw

  • CordableTuna #14 6 years ago

    It's interesting that he speaks about this, though. Molyneux's games aren't necessarily the best, but often they lead the way and fighting games are a very stale genre at the moment. The current leaders, Team Ninja for example, have found their winning formula and hell will freeze over before they'll try to innovate.

    So, let's hope Molyneux releases a half baked fighting game with lots of innovation and let the followers fix it up.

  • geepersd #15 6 years ago

    was it bushido blade that was a bit like that - combat could go on for ages or be over in seconds depending on when the killer blow struck. plus you could throw sand in peoples eyes, slit someone's through before the fight officially began, or hide behind a tree

    though it did have blocking and needed a lot of buttons

    edited to say I should have read all the comments first as seems a few peeps spotted this point first/too
    Edited by 1 at 22/08/06 @ 14:02

  • rudedudejude #16 6 years ago

    He should play company of Heroes, it is by far the biggest game change in straegy / combat I've seen for a good few years.

    He had it at Bullfrog, but I think he might have lost it never to return again. Time shall tell I guess.

  • djchump #17 6 years ago

    The only problem with Bushido blade was that it took longer to load into a fight than the fight lasted... and any game where you spend more time staring at a loading screen than actually playing it is automatically crap in my book :-(

    Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed playing Bushido Blade - it's just you didn't get to play for long before you were shown another hideously long loading screen. Rather ironic that the better you were at the game, the quicker the fights were over, the less time you spent playing the game, the greater the ratio of loading time: playing time and therefore the less fun it is... :-(

  • groovychainsaw #18 6 years ago

    Well, that is true, nostalgia does tend to sand over the flaws, but it was still a unique game. The main point is that the game implemented a combat system close to what Peter Molyneux seems to be describing, although it still required many buttons/stances to add (much needed) depth.

  • Stoatboy #19 6 years ago

    "...so if you're next to a beer bottle, pressing the button might cause your character to smash it over an enemy's head; or, if you're underneath a chandelier, your character might leap up and grab it..."


    So what if I'm next to a beer bottle under a chandelier, you one-button buffoon?

  • Genji #20 6 years ago

    I think the Bushido Blade games had one hit kills. It's a good idea, but the game wouldn't sell nearly as much.

    /looks at other comments

    Oh.

    /shuffles out
    Edited by 1 at 22/08/06 @ 14:16

  • p_p #21 6 years ago

    1) There wasn't a single new idea in there

    2) How about a proof-of-concept reel, eh Peter?

  • Pike #22 6 years ago

    While I'm not sure Molyneux is the man to do it he sure is correct that fighting games are in dire need of innovation. That genre is so incredibly generic that your average fighter makes your a run of the mill FPS seem like Spore in comparison.

  • tiddles #23 6 years ago

    Re - one button combats - Urban Reign has a great system where most offensive attacks are carried out with one button, either on its own or with a direction to denote high, low etc... (There are still separate buttons for grapples, dodges, running etc.) Works pretty well in my view - if you have the patience for it, Urban Reign is a greatly under-rated title.

  • ccfb #24 6 years ago

    "Oh. Right. Seems strange they've spent all this time talking about how to revolutionise combat in a completely random context when they should probably get on with making their new game, but there you are."

    I firmly believe in some people's ability to be elsewhere while the rest of their software development company continue making their next game. I think I read it on the internet somewhere.

  • Eldritch #25 6 years ago

    File under "American McGee".

  • Jos #26 6 years ago

    I'd love a combat game (or indeed would work in various genres) where you were abstracted from the action a bit - essentially you controlled the characters AI motivations and got to watch what the character did as a result.

    So in a fighting game control his aggression, defence, hand-to-hand or weapon play, etc. Would need a fab AI engine but it would do a couple of things - allow for a lot more moves to be used in the course of a game without having to spend 10 years learning a complex "simon says" just to make your character do what you want it to, and also free up the game camera to display the action from view points that would otherwise be impossible to play the game from if you were directly controlling the character - more like action film direction.

    And you can quote me on that when Lionhead release "abstacted fighter 3 - the return of the Jos"

  • El_MUERkO #27 6 years ago

    Bushido had a 1 hit kill system so the ideas have been around for a while.

    Context sensitive physics based fighting rather than set animations would allow for fluid fighting mechanics.

    [edit]See, others remember Bushido Blade too, I remember and uninspired sequal with health bars flopped
    Edited by 1 at 22/08/06 @ 14:37

  • Stickman #28 6 years ago

    No block button? Yeah, because who ever heard of anyone blocking a punch or sword? Slates Fable for being a bit of a button masher, then champions the one button fighting method?

    The guy's such an idiot.

  • Xerx3s #29 6 years ago

    Oh. Right. Seems strange they've spent all this time talking about how to revolutionise combat in a completely random context when they should probably get on with making their new game, but there you are.

    Ah, so they only have one game in development then eh? Game concepts often start before previous projects end.

  • mattigan #30 6 years ago

    "No block and one kill hits... so how does that work then? o_0 "

    Well if the character is given AI routines to the effect of "defend yourself to the best of your abilities with whatever you've got to hand at the time" and as long as the AI is robust enough, the rest will take care of itself.

    I thing thats what hes getting at.

  • NthSimulachum #31 6 years ago

    Maybe not blocking (since it's a bit of a cop out mostly), but deflections and reversals would be interesting, if done well, with a more intuitive, thumbstick friendly olution than in dead or alive.

    A style bar that filled up as you killed baddies in a stylised(not necessarily most destructive) way, and would reward you for not doing the same combo over and over and over. Once it was filled, you could execute one of many crazy stylistic attacks based on context.

    Also, using the thumbsticks rather than the buttons to offer greater finesse. Imagine the controls for Table Tennis, but Top Spin being power, Bottom Spin being precision, Left Spin being Kick and Right Spin being punch. Allow charging, and placement on the opponents body with the left stick, with the possibility of overshooting, or being more likely to be deflected the long you charged...

    Or would that be shit?

  • Stoatboy #32 6 years ago

    "Molyneux talks combat games

    It's time for a revolution, he says."


    Brilliant!

    Guess who's first against the wall...

  • Furbs #33 6 years ago

    Can I just say I enjoyed the combat system in Path of Neo. Sorry :(

  • dr_faulk #34 6 years ago

    Why doesn't he bother his hole to make a Kendo game for the Wii? One-hit-"kills" all you like.

  • Steroyd #35 6 years ago

    okay...

    context sensitive button - God of War
    If you want to go on a timescale Conkers bad fur day.

    Want variety in attacking styles three words "Devil May Cry"

    and WTF "No Block Button" not even an evade button I presume what does he want every combat title next gen to turn into Final Fantasy gone realtime. o_O

    That must be some good crack he's on.

  • Chtulie #36 6 years ago

    As it has been said before but worth chipping in on: the man doesn't know his action games. All the stuff mentioned in the article has been done in one form or another in games already with varying degrees of success and failure.
    It's simply not his field of knowledge.

  • sturgeon #37 6 years ago

    Sounds like he's played the Heavenly Sword demo at E3.

  • Gl3n #38 6 years ago

    Shut it molyneux you useless hack. Why he get's invited to talk anywhere is totally beyond me. He should spend more time designing his games than flying around the world talking utter bollocks.

  • Psi #39 6 years ago

    id beat molyneux in a fight.

    best fighting technique i ever saw was from a mate of mine, run away and keep them chasing you as long as you can, when the person chasing you is nackered... turn around and kick the fuck outta them.

    course only works if your faster and fitter :p

    very good to use with beer bellied taxirank wankers.

  • mrsquare #40 6 years ago

    "Also, using the thumbsticks rather than the buttons to offer greater finesse. Imagine the controls for Table Tennis, but Top Spin being power, Bottom Spin being precision, Left Spin being Kick and Right Spin being punch. Allow charging, and placement on the opponents body with the left stick, with the possibility of overshooting, or being more likely to be deflected the long you charged... "

    How do you move?

  • MrChuckles #41 6 years ago

    I'm guessing the no block button means the character auto blocks.

    It's up to the player to time their attacks so that they don't leave themselves open to attack by attacking at the wrong time and then being hit.

    Basically he s saying that pressing the attack button performs the most sensible move in the current situation and therefore if you don;t want that move, change the situation you are in.

    Press 'A'
    1. standing far way from enemy, lunge
    2. stand near, jab
    3. Stand near beer bottle and far from enemy, throw it at them.
    4. Stand near beer bottle and near enemy, pick up bottle smash over head.

    In short, 'when' to press the attack button becomes the gameplay, not 'which' button you press, or which combo of buttons you press.

    Also, the 1 hit thing does not mean instant kills per se, i'm guessing it means fatigue or manouvering.

    i.e. Instead of each attack with a sword successfully 'hitting' the enemy with blood spurting out and them continuing (completely unrealistic), each successful attack is blocked, but uses up some of the enemies fatigue, or skill meaning that after X attacks the next hit goes straight through their defence for a coupe d'etat. Would luck much more cinematic and final than 'blap, blap, blap, blap, dead.'

    Both systems 'could' work, but i don't fancy implementing them.

    Sorry, just trying to discuss the ideas rather than shoot the man down.

  • Golgo #42 6 years ago

    Instead of 'Molyneux talks combat games',
    maybe this item should've just been called 'Molyneux talks'?

  • Stoatboy #43 6 years ago

    If no block button means auto-block then didn't Ninja Gaiden do that before too?

    One button combat - the point still stands - if you're standing near a beer bottle and under a chandelier - which action does your character do - pick up the beer bottle, or swing from the chandelier? I kinda want to know before I press the button.

    re: "each successful attack is blocked, but uses up some of the enemies fatigue, or skill meaning that after X attacks the next hit goes straight through their defence for a coupe d'etat."

    That's essentially hit points, with a killing blow though - Mortal Kombat with an automated fatality.

    Coup de grace perhaps? Although - you could be right - a coup d'etat is one hell of a finishing move :D

    Sorry, just trying to shoot the man down some more ;)

  • T4RG4 #44 6 years ago

    Jesus wept - Here is my Molly impression "Cars pollute the world... it's about time we scrapped them and invented something better... its not popular but I am onto something here... I cant tell you all the secrets, I SO want to, but my team would kill me... I'll just say it's going to amaze the entire world"

    Translation.

    "I'm talking about something countless people have mentioned to me since we started Fable. I've got no bloody idea what we'd really do differently and I dont really play games much. The press love my voice, almost as much as I do. Watch as I hint I'm doing something good and then deliver naff all!"

    Molly, I Sir challenge you to a delivery duel.



  • MrChuckles #45 6 years ago

    he he coup de grace, good point doh...

    Yeah, it is hitpoints, but it makes more sense to someone who hasn't played games before. Hit points are still a left over from AD&D, i agree we should have moved from that visual representation by now!

    If you stranding next to a chandelier and a beer bottle, i would hope the interface would indicate what would happen. Perhaps the bottle has a faint glow until you move nearer to the chandelier when that has?

  • wolfen #46 6 years ago

    Bushido Blade was great, but outside the hardcore gamer/Nipponophile crowd, who else knew the game by the end (or even the middle) of PSOne's lifespan? There are a lot of apparently good ideas that don't cather all that well to the general (not to be confused with "mainstream";) market unless they are prepared, and the whole "sword fights with one hit kills" might well be one of them.

    I believe the series could use another go, and the upcoming generation of consoles might well be able to generate skin cuts and damaged clothing in real time, which would be awesome. Imagine something a bit like the Final Flight of the Osiris.

    Anyway, he does have a point (as usual), but given his recent record I don't think he's the right person to make such a game.

  • steviepunk #47 6 years ago

    There definately has to be some kind of blocking system, whether manually activated or auto - however in a game with a 'potential' one-hit kill (remember, in Bushido blade you could injure your opponent as well) blocking and dodging would be at the core of the game play.

    Have a look at good sword fights in the movies, including the Kill Bill reference with Oshi, most of them can last several minutes with there only being one or two significant hits, the rest of the attacks are blocked or dodged.

    In a game context, the real skill becomes defending yourself long enough to make a decisive attack. This would suggest a need for a block button, however it would also mean that noobs would lose quickly, which means less fun. An autoblock system would provide a longer play time for a noob, but adding joystick direction into the contextual system would open up other options for both the attacker and the defender. If different attacks each have a recovery time, and blocks/dodges also have a recovery time, then the battle becomes know which strikes are needed to force your opponent to leave themselves vunerable, making the game a battle of wits.


    "Oh. Right. Seems strange they've spent all this time talking about how to revolutionise combat in a completely random context when they should probably get on with making their new game, but there you are."

    Now, I would have thought EG would know that Lionhead have Project Demetri (spelling?) in progress. I'm sure that they also will have other ideas for future projects being passed around as well. I recall a few years ago there was talk of a Lionhead project called Dojo, which was a fighting game of somekind, not sure what happened to that though.

    I love reading about Peters speeches and comments, there is always something interesting to be found there. His ambition might outstretch Lionheads abilities at times - but at least he tries to new things. As it is I loved both Black and Whites and Fable.

  • T4RG4 #48 6 years ago

    Project Dimitri? You think it's still in production after all this time? Maybe EG have nothing to say about it for obvious reasons.

  • Dynamize #49 6 years ago

    A context-sensitive, solitary action button. Yes, that is the epitome of interactive entertainment. When the user isn't actually sure what will happen when they press the button. Molyneux is showing the evolution of gaming!
    Informed decisions, tactical considerations and plans made on the fly, they obstruct the fun of a game. You need one button that says "when you press me, SOMETHING is gonna happen. You might not know what, but something will happen. Look at the environment, think of all the cool things pushing me could do. No, not that. Try again. I'm gonna grab the pool cue, I don't care if you wanted to do a punch-kick combo, I wanna hit him with the pool cue".

    I mean, those chimps with their button-press food dispensers in those psych experiments. They seem to have a lot of fun, right?

  • Steroyd #50 6 years ago

    I think Assasins Credd has one hit kills....

    Although it does have an automatic blocking system as well... oh shoot.

  • fawe3 #51 6 years ago

    fawe reads the news title, fawe drops jaw down, fawe reads what molyneux said about figting games, fawe thinks that this guy deserves an old stile CCCP reeducating.

  • yiannis #52 6 years ago

    yes to block, yes one hit kills if the hit is at a lethal point (head, neck...) and bleeding injuries...

    Bushido Blade all the way, i love this game!!! but it shouldn't be like that for all games.Be creative yes.. but it has to match the overall gameplay.

    why doesn't he design a combat game for Wii and get done with it damn it!!!

    as for fable, OK, it got a bit repetitive after some point but it still is one of my favorite games.

  • iconsam #53 6 years ago

    And after you play Molyneux's combat game, you're given a nice pellet of cheese.

  • mrman #54 6 years ago

    im just sick of listening to this tired old twat. His last decent game was populous, now he is just a dull boring old man promising the earth and achieveing fuck all.

  • Calo #55 6 years ago

    I wish i got a eurogamer article when i talked about game design like this :|

  • Aggress #56 6 years ago

    Just like he's shown in http://www.ga mevideos.com/video/id/5194

  • steviepunk #57 6 years ago

    "Project Dimitri? You think it's still in production after all this time? Maybe EG have nothing to say about it for obvious reasons."

    Yes, he's been mentioning it in interviews lately, particularly about how his inspiration came from something that happened on Sept 23rd last year (or there abouts - I believe that this was mentioned in the EurogamerTV interviews a few weeks ago). That point did confuse me, I though it had been on the go for a few years, maybe he scrapped it and started again.

    Of course, possible that Dimitri is the code word for all games in progress at Lionhead, same way that Creation seemed to be for Bullfrog

  • Hugundo #58 6 years ago

    Death to the demon Molyneux!

  • Hades #59 6 years ago

    sounds like the action button in Metal Gear Solid games.