Grid Wars author's reflections

By Tom Bramwell Published 18 August, 2006

Felt pressured into cloning Geometry Wars, denies he's being sued.

Despite similarities, Geometry Wars clone Grid Wars - shut down at the barrel of a legal gun this month - began life quite detached from the game it ended up imitating.

That's according to developer Mark Incitti, who told Eurogamer that the project originally began as a reaction to news that there were no plans for a PC version of the popular Live Arcade title.

He also denies that Microsoft and Bizarre Creations have taken legal action against him, but has expressed doubts about their claims that Grid Wars was affecting 360 sales of Geometry Wars - and also highlighted the irony of a Smash TV/Robotron clone developer complaining about being copied.

"I loved Smash TV and enjoyed that style of game and began working on my own version. I enjoy the challenge of programming games that people enjoy playing," he told Eurogamer.

"I also liked the visual effect of their grid. I had some old code that did something similar that I modified to do a displacement distortion. I threw that into a Robotron clone I had made for a coding competition and took that as the basis for Grid Wars. I knew I had something when my four year-old niece played it and said it was fun!"

"I had many unique elements in there - that initially people were pushing me to remove - [like] power-ups, generators, triangle-chainers, various control methods, skill levels, etc."

"The graphics and behaviours ended up being very similar to Geometry Wars - I had input from people constantly telling me to change this and that - make this brighter/faster, etc. I resisted for a while - but that's futile, isn't it? So the game evolved into more of a clone than anticipated."

And it wasn't long after that that he heard from Bizarre. Following an exchange of emails in early April, during which Incitti offered to make changes to the game's name and aesthetic - key elements of Bizarre's argument, this week, that people were confusing the two products.

He also offered to include credits and links to Bizarre, he says, but apparently his offer fell on deaf ears, and then a fortnight ago he received an email asking him to stop distributing the game. He duly obliged.

"I don't know if legally they have the right to shut it down - but I took it down out of respect for their developers and the cool work they do. I don't really think it is affecting their sales on Xbox 360 - but if they do want to move into the PC market then it's better if the confusion is cleared up," he conceded.

"I hope that they are approaching the rest of the 'clone' makers with a [cease and desist] stance," he added. "My game may have been popular, but there were several others that had gameplay that was closer to Geometry Wars than Grid Wars is."

Whether they do or not remains to be seen. Microsoft told us that they and Bizarre would not be commenting on Grid Wars any further for legal reasons.

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (78) Latest comment 1 year ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • penhalion #1 6 years ago

    Actually as their game is in effect a clone of robotron, I think a simple graphic and name change would have covered grid wars. The only IP I see in it is the grid effect that they have in the evolved version.

    The "We can't comment for legal reasons" crap is because they don't have a legal leg to stand on =)

  • mingster #2 6 years ago

    This makes me sad...

    Yeah close down all the other geometry wars clones as well then on the PC including the new one thats just been coded for the PSP and every other robotron clone while your at it,

    Then release a PC version and watch every one refuse to buy it or pirate it out of principle for your bully boy tactics.

    Grid Wars may have been a homage/rip off but it didn't play the same it was actually very different gameplay wise ..

    I personally reckon he should just re-release it with different graphics and tell them to go f##k themselves

  • stuarty_2003 #3 6 years ago

    He'll probably get a job at Bizarre now.


    Edit: Or Microsoft will buy a share in him.
    Edited by 1 at 18/08/06 @ 14:51

  • Darkedge #4 6 years ago

    if you haven't played it (as many people seem to have not done before commenting)
    You would realise that a simple change to the robotron gameplay is the gravity and the DAMN BLACK HOLES.
    That makes a big difference and was also copied by grid wars - it ended a massively close clone to geometry wars and I stand by bizzare wanting to close down grid wars - they should also close down as many as possible of the other direct copies too.

    It's like designing a car and calling it the Jaguar XJ6 and somebody takes tha car and makes a copy of it from scratch that looks the same handles the same and is fundamentally the same car but sell it as the Puma ZK6 - would you get away with that? No.

  • geepersd #5 6 years ago

    @ Darkedge

    the Jaguar XJ6 is just a Ford Model T clone anyway

  • stuarty_2003 #6 6 years ago

    @ Darkedge

    the Jaguar XJ6 is just a Ford Model T clone anyway

    ..........


    Which was a Lada clone in itself.

  • gizmo #7 6 years ago

    Would be better than a Jag, anyhow.

  • SimonM7 #8 6 years ago

    If Geometry Wars is a Robotron "CLONE" then boy will people sue eachother to left and right.

  • oneiros #9 6 years ago

    Hmmn; a little bit of mucking about on the BlitzBasic site will still net you GW5.3 and the patch to 5.4 (Apr19). Was there ever a later version?

  • Chtulie #10 6 years ago

    Christ, if it was Valve they wouldn't have sent a sease and desist, but hired the guy to work on the next one.

  • El_MUERkO #11 6 years ago

    the latest version i found was 4.6, links to later versions appreciated

  • Arganoid #12 6 years ago

    Spheres of Chaos (an asteroids style game) had gravity and black holes years ago. And was also very psychedelic. Still an excellent game.

    However, I disagree that Geometry Wars can be called a Robotron clone. That's like calling Half-Life 2 a Doom clone.

  • The_Foo_Fighter #13 6 years ago

    He ripped off Geometry Wars. End of. Any ancillary points he raises about Bizarre ripping Smash TV et al are hardly grounds for justification of his efforts.

  • bluebird #14 6 years ago

    I think Bizarre are justified in stopping Gridwars distribution.

    I love playing Grid Wars, and I think it's actually more fun than the original (slower paced and more strategic) even if the graphics of the original are far superior.

    If you look at the author website of Grid Wars, you'll see that pretty much all his games are derived copies in Blitz basic of original arcade games. Nothing really wrong with that really, but anyone who played both can see that Grid Wars is clearly a copy, both in gameplay mechanics as in graphics. Some changes in tempo and other such parameters does not change that.

  • mingster #15 6 years ago

    I am mirroring GridWars 5.4 here

    http://www.omnicrom.com< /a>

    select the gaming menu and its at the bottom.

    enjoy

    And all of you people that reckon the poor freeware author deserved being bullied by a big corporation well i hope you all get your just deserves on the negative Karma youve created. The poor guy was providing a service to PC owners no official PC version of the game existed so untill then he was justified in his actions to bring PC owners a taste of gaming fun for free. It's not like he profited out of it.

    You should be ashamed of yourselves and help the small indy/bedroom coders of this world. If it wasn't for them you wouldn't have any of your modern videogames.

    Most of you don't deserve to even own a 360 for not knowing your heritage.

    Masterthief you are the worst for the vitriol you spouted in a previous comments thread.
    Edited by 1 at 18/08/06 @ 16:53

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #16 6 years ago

    The latest versions of GW2 (PC and Mac versions) can be downloaded from this feature, and will remain there permanently.

    http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.co...

  • The_Foo_Fighter #17 6 years ago

    The 'poor freeware author' didn't profit from his actions, eh?

    He didn't get any exposure by the media, traffic to his site, not to mention a nice addition to his portfolio should he wish to join a developer.

    I can't understand your logic; it's like saying: "Well, they never released Big Movie 10 on VHS, so I'm going to copy it onto that media and freely distribute it. No harm done."

  • mingster #18 6 years ago

    "I can't understand your logic; it's like saying: "Well, they never released Big Movie 10 on VHS, so I'm going to copy it onto that media and freely distribute it. No harm done."

    Apart from the fact he didn't just copy it as in tape it from Betamax to VHS.

    He did the same as refilming the whole film from scratch as a homage to the original then transfered his new creation onto VHS.

    Although actually he coded his game from scratch using a freely available games programming tool called Blitz Basic.

    Last time i checked all budding home programmers using blitz basic are making clones or recreations of existing arcade games to sharpen up their programming skills prior to getting a job with a developer then making games for you to play so you can then in turn slag them off.

  • The_Foo_Fighter #19 6 years ago

    You seem to regard his actions as a public service which, to be honest, is a fair assumption.

    Let's put it this way, though. You create a game for the PC. People love it and you make lots of money. Seeing a gap in the market, someone decides to 'create' a version of yourgame for the Mac, from which you derive no profits whatsoever and he gains kudos and makes a name for himself off the back of your hard work.

    Do you applaud him and say: "Great. He stole my ideas, my designs, my whole damn game. I wish him all the best. More power to him."

    Sure you do, because you clearly are a King among men.

  • El_MUERkO #20 6 years ago

    i actuallly had 5.4 on my machine already :)

    got the duelshock connected to my tv as i've been messing with a system to control a rogue in WoW using it so i'll have a blast tonight

    i think my highest score was 800k

  • geepersd #21 6 years ago

    despite posting partialy in jest I think the car analogy is fair.

    I can see a lineage from a Model T to a modern car as I can from Robotron to Geometry Wars and in fact to the dual stick move / aim used in most console FPSs and Third person games up to Lost Planet which has a lot of elements from robotron and gauntlet.

    I can also see where copying and homage come in.

    Yes it's a different game, and yes gravitron and the like also had gravity and black holes many years ago, but Grid Wars seems awfully close to Geometry Wars as requesting it stop being distributed for valid commercial reasons is fair. I can see the other guy's point, but he hasn't been harmed and can still release a new game with the name and graphical changes he suggested if he wants. He could also throw in the ideas he felt pressured to remove.

    It's still have four wheels, but it'll be in his interest to tweak the handling and maybe throw in a remodelled chasis

  • jamesbee #22 6 years ago

    "In itself that'd be passingly interesting - particularly for anyone who didn't want to fork out £300 for a state-of-the-art, all-singing, all-dancing Xbox 360 in order to play a vector-graphics Robotron game - but while GW2 is undeniably closely related to GW:RE"

    So Rev. Stuart Campbell managed to say in once sentence that it's an "undeniably" close copy of that game, and a nice alternative to paying for the original. Yet, he still defends it...

    I'd be interested to know if you would still feel the same way if he were in fact charging for Grid Wars?
    Edited by 1 at 18/08/06 @ 17:39

  • Chaosophy #23 6 years ago

    I think the whole thing stinks tbh.

    Oh and as afaik 5.4 was the latest, still have it installed. There's also a Star Wars mod kicking around, in fact you can easily mod in your own GFX and SFX, not that I've tried either.

  • marilena #24 6 years ago

    Heh. I can't quite agree with everything Rev. Stuart Campbell is saying (about Grid Wars I firmly believe it needs to change the name and all the graphical assets), but I do like his article about piracy being the only preserver of the gaming's industry heritage.

    I particularly like this bit: "The reality is that piracy and emulation are in truth phenomena whose primary influence on gaming is to save its legacy from the greedy, narrow-minded, short-sighted recklessness of those who control the worldwide videogames industry."

  • Pirotic #25 6 years ago

    If one guy could make such a good clone, makes you wonder why Bizzare are charging us for it at all. I hate their bully tactics, nobody should be able to say they have the sole right to a gameplay mechanic, it's bad for the industry which has through-out history made progress by copying one another and then one-upping it.

    sure it's a clone, but it's also all his own work. what gives them the right to say he cannot give it out for free? if he was charging then they might have a toe (or a small leg) to stand on but a freebie? screw Bizzare creations.
    Edited by 1 at 18/08/06 @ 18:36

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #26 6 years ago

    "So Rev. Stuart Campbell managed to say in once sentence that it's an "undeniably" close copy of that game, and a nice alternative to paying for the original. Yet, he still defends it..."

    I do love the way you cut my quote off just before the relevant bit pointing out how GW2 is in fact very different to GW:RE, despite being clearly related to it.

  • smelly #27 6 years ago

    meh. Who cares what you think?

  • BigHairyBear #28 6 years ago

    Hmmmm.....Rockstar vs THQ anyone?

    Where will it end?

  • Grom #29 6 years ago

    "meh. Who cares what you think?"

    Fewer and fewer people nowadays, happily!

  • Chtulie #30 6 years ago

    It's not good buisness to clamp down on someone who fills a market niche you haven't provided for. That's effort that doesn't bring in more. It IS good buisness to take over/assimilate/buy that niche-marketfiller and then bring in more.

    There is no official geometry wars for the PC Mac. Clearly though there is an audience that would really like it. Someone elese gives it to them on their own free time and effort. Why not simply buy it from him?
    And since this variant is considered to be deeper of substance then the original, why not hire him to develop new versions. For fricks sake, you hire one man and that's all you'd need to fulfill this market game need to design, develop and code a quite popular franchise.

  • bluebird #31 6 years ago

    @Chtulie: you can't buy it from him and then sell it, people won't buy something when they can find it online for free, or when they used to have it for free. Besides that, the Gridwars game is technically quite different from the original game (enemy AI, grid, handling) and I doubt the code could be ported easily to be a perfect 1 on 1 copy of the original.

  • jamesbee #32 6 years ago

    I understand that you feel it has different game play elements to GW:RE, however, the fact remains, in your words it is "undeniably closely related" in both visual style and basic premise to a game created by Bizzare some years ago. I really honestly can't see a defence for it. Regardless of the adjustments he might have since made.

    I can't understand personally why he would choose to copy the exact style of the game and so many of the basic elements and not expect that eventually he would be asked to cease doing so.

    We are not talking EA here, crashing down on some small developer who was trying to improve the sports genre. Bizarre have paid their dues, worked hard and I am sure the programmers have earned the right to profit from their creations. It's not up to anyone else to simply decide their game should be ported to another system, game play enhancements or not.

    I wish the creator of Grid Wars the best of luck in any future projects and perhaps will use the lesson learnt here to create an original IP of his own, robotron related or not. It certainly seems, based on the support here that he wouldn't have problems selling it, unless of course, someone were to offer an enhanced version for free.
    Edited by 4 at 19/08/06 @ 00:33

  • Teeth #33 6 years ago

    jamesbee +1. Good man.

    By the way, Incitti's remaking Marble Madness at the moment.

  • Carrybagma #34 6 years ago

    Ooooh - developer envy ;o)

    Here's a suggestion for Mark Incitti: make Grid Wars 3, and make it sufficiently different from GW:RE to keep the lawyers away.

    So, who do I thank for this wonderful game? Mr.I or Bizarre? In playing this, I've added another reason why a 360 would be a good choice of console, so shouldn't Mr.I get some credit for that?

  • Sko #35 6 years ago

    These homebrew programming language communities have a "we're not harming anyone" mantra that they start chanting whenever they're essentially ripping off other games. A lot of it is done, as with Mr. Incitti, out of an appreciation of the original but it's still a rather naive 'group-hug' vibe in there that doesn't help matters.

  • Grom #36 6 years ago

    Come on, this isn't the same at all, it looks virtually identical. The casual gamer isn't going to fully grasp the difference in gameplay. Ask yourself: would Incitti have made this game, looking like it does, if he had never seen or played Geometry Wars? Thought not. The very kindest word you can use to describe it is a homage, but words like plagiarism and blatant seem to apply more readily.

  • MaxiSleep #37 6 years ago

    There seams to be a clear difference between (I am guessing) industry poeple (who do not have gamers interests at heart) and gamers


    I think (and have said) that this is disgusting, and is further evidence of bully boy corporations taking away consumers and authors freedom

    I dont care about the law - we are being screwed. And the law is clearly being maipulated by corporations to lie their pockets.

    Screw Bizarre creations. I will not buy from then again

  • woodnotes #38 6 years ago

    Oh, come on, the guy totally and purposefully ripped Geo Wars right off.

    It looked blatantly the same but was crap to play.

    Anyone remember the Great Giana Sisters? Well then, are you going to stop buying from Nintendo too?

    I expected better from EG. Bizarre are totally in the right to protect their own IP. Whether Bizarre want to create a PC version or not is irrelevant. If he coped Mario Bros in just the same way that he copied GW, Nintendo would be on his back.
    Edited by 1 at 19/08/06 @ 13:22

  • Bezzy #39 6 years ago

    Nice to hear his point of view, for sure. 'specially since I got a little irate over it on the other thread. Thanks mr. Tom!

    As I suspected, he certainly wasn't plagurising out of malice. Still, I don't think that makes it 'okay'. Just makes him look a bit naive.
    Edited by 1 at 19/08/06 @ 13:53

  • Grom #40 6 years ago

    Sure, people who work in the industry are likely to get a bit more worked up about the whole issue. Not because it sets any meaningful kind of precedence, but perhaps just because of the reactions of certain people.

    There's no law involved, just common courtesy and originality. No-one is being screwed except the people who came up with the concept and creation at Bizarre. If the situations had been reversed and Incitti had come up with the gameplay and visual concept of the game, and then Bizarre had released a virtually identical copy without any sort of acknowledgement, would your reaction be the same?

    Of course it bloody wouldn't. And just because one party has a bit more money than the other. With the amount of cash actually going to developers nowadays you'd better bloody believe they want to protect their IPs. They are people too you know, and are entitled to feel proud of their creations just like one man operations.

    If you are going to pick this as some figurehead case for a rant about stealing ideas or 'indies versus The Man' you have picked entirely the wrong example for so many MANY reasons.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #41 6 years ago

    Grow up, you idiot. "Screwed"? In what way? Tell us honestly that you think the sales of a £3 Xbox 360 game have been damaged by the availability of a similar game on a totally different format. Tell us honestly that you think GW2 has cost Bizarre more sales than it generated by raising awareness of the "real" GW:RE. Let's find out just *exactly* how stupid a position you're attempting to maintain here.

    If it wasn't for plagiarism, Bizarre Creations - and the rest of the world videogames industry - wouldn't exist at all, because the ENTIRE VIDEOGAMES INDUSTRY is built on a foundation of plagiarism and always has been. Idiot.
    Edited by 1 at 19/08/06 @ 16:10

  • IAmBatman #42 6 years ago

    Except Bizarre are making a PC version, so Grid Wars will affect their sales.


    And 'idiot' twice in the same post? Shouldn't you be able to come up with something a bit more creative?

  • Teeth #43 6 years ago

    There's a difference between plagiarism and inspiration. The correct method is to expand on ideas and concepts to create improved derivative works. Saying that the games industry is built on plagiarism is wrong, because if it were we would still be playing Pong.

    As for Grom's comment, there're more ways to be screwed than just financially. IP is property too. "screwed" is a little strong, granted, but their IP was stolen by Incitti, who could've readily made the required changes to cover himself from this kind of action.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #44 6 years ago

    Can't you read? (1) He offered to do exactly that, and (2) he DID "expand on ideas and concepts to create improved derivative works", as I explained in very considerable detail over 4000 words in the feature that's been linked from here and from many of the news pieces on the story. But of course, THE GRAPHICS LOOK THE SAME so none of the kneejerk idiots on here care about any of that.

    If you can't be bothered to look at what gets said, don't be surprised when people think you're an arse.

  • chavatar #45 6 years ago

    "If it wasn't for plagiarism, Bizarre Creations - and the rest of the world videogames industry - wouldn't exist at all, because the ENTIRE VIDEOGAMES INDUSTRY is built on a foundation of plagiarism and always has been"

    "he DID 'expand on ideas and concepts to create improved derivative works'"

    Plagiarism or no?

    Just checking. I found a dictionary helpful here

  • Atari_Boy #46 6 years ago

    I think the whole Bizarre thing is based on the fact that it LOOKS almost the same and PLAYS similar.

  • Chtulie #47 6 years ago

    Bluebird:
    not literally buy it and sell the same thing. Buy the AI, the patterns, the hording and combo system, the black hole stuff. Then ditch the name and the graphics, apply it to your own engine and your own game name and sell it.
    There's still a whole world of diffirence between a part-time creation like this and a full-time product (lots of polish).

    Also regarding videogame design being based on plagiarism:
    very true. It's more and more apparent the further back you go when outer features (the looks of the game) where much more similar. These days it's much more a look at the actual mechanics which are depressingly similar.
    The way gridwars rises above most of the muck is that it expands on the original rather then being a lesser copy (the Godfather game for instance, lesser to the film, lesser to GTA and a gazillion others).

  • smelly #48 6 years ago

    >don't be surprised when people think you're an arse.

    Coming from mr campbell.. quite ironic.

  • Grom #49 6 years ago

    Stuart, are you proud of the work you have done in the past? I imagine you are, and that you feel happy that you have created something.

    When I said 'screwed' (which was just taking a word from the poster before me, who claimed gamers were being 'screwed') I meant that someone else is profiting, maybe not financially but in terms of reputation or publicity, from the ideas of another. Do you not think that the individuals at Bizarre might be proud of GWRE, and upset if someone copies it after the fact? Grid Wars would never have been made or look like it does without GWRE.

    Just because they are part of a company, somehow to you their views are immediately subsumed beneath some corporate entity, and so no longer worthy of account.

    The fact that they have asked politely for Incitti to stop distributing Grid Wars means that they care. I doubt there would have been any problem if his version had you shooting things on a deformable water background with different enemies, even if it had identical gameplay to now. It seems like you're deliberately refusing to see the very large similarities between the two games just to make a point :/

  • MrGrumpy.au #50 6 years ago

    Theres no point in arguing as "whats done is done" and nothing's going to change it.

    If you want to feel sorry for anyone try sparing a thought for Atari, Taito, Namco, Sega and Nintendo cause they really got "taken to the cleaners" in the '70s -> '90s where rival manufacturers would just disassemble the games source and make small changes to the games to sell as competetion (on their own cheaper hardware, using the actual disassembled source!).

    Also the home computer market has always had a huge number of non authorised Arcade clones, but these were written from scratch usually by a fan of the actual arcade machine (mind you some of those clones were better than the originals, but some were complete trash).

    It will be interesting to see if they go after everyone else though. And IAmBatman talked about (on page 1) a PC version coming shortly now if it's a Vista only port that'll definately slow it's sales. (after seeing what they are doing with HALO 2 it wouldn't suprise me)

    I'm just glad I followed Grid Wars 2 all the way through its development because it really turned into a fantastic game and looks like it's turning into a cult hit after all the news against it.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #51 6 years ago

    "Stuart, are you proud of the work you have done in the past? I imagine you are, and that you feel happy that you have created something. "

    Yes, I am. How do I feel when people are inspired by it to create something similar but different, borrowing bits of my work to add to their own? (For examples, count the phrases and motifs coined by me and my AP chums which crop up in the first issue of NGamer.) I feel honoured and delighted. People stealing my work and reprinting it as their own would be fucking scum. People who've been inspired by it to do something excellent and similar, pinching the odd bit here and there, I couldn't be happier about. Thanks for the excellent analogy :D
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/06 @ 18:01

  • Rev.~Stuart~Campbell #52 6 years ago

    "Stuart, are you proud of the work you have done in the past? I imagine you are, and that you feel happy that you have created something. "

    Yes, I am. How do I feel when people are inspired by it to create something similar even though the target audience will confuse it with the original? (For examples, count the phrases and motifs coined by me such as "kneejerk idiots", "don't be surprised when people think you're an arse" or "fucking scum" which crop up all over the console wars message threads.) I feel honoured and delighted. People stealing my work and reprinting it as their own would be a nice opportunity to use my powerful swearing rethoric. People who've been inspired by it to do something excellent because similar, pinching the odd bit here and there, I couldn't be happier about. Thanks for the excellent boasting opportunity :D

  • Teeth #53 6 years ago

    Nice parody!

    Stuart,

    "Can't you read? (1) He offered to do exactly that, and (2) he DID "expand on ideas and concepts to create improved derivative works", as I explained in very considerable detail over 4000 words in the feature that's been linked from here and from many of the news pieces on the story. But of course, THE GRAPHICS LOOK THE SAME so none of the kneejerk idiots on here care about any of that."

    My point was that he should have done this before the fact, rather than after the fact. I've played Grid Wars 2 and it's too similar to Geometry Wars for comfort. If I'd made that game I'd have been in touch with the owner before even releasing it on the web - probably as soon as people started saying things like "make this more like Geowars".

    Incitti's done a good thing and his points are completely acceptable; the idea that GW2 is harming Geometry Wars's sales is a bit of a stretch of the imagination, definitely. I wish he'd gone down the road he was travelling before people started convincing him to turn the game into a Geometry Wars clone.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #54 6 years ago

    "My point was that he should have done this before the fact, rather than after the fact. I've played Grid Wars 2 and it's too similar to Geometry Wars for comfort."

    Y'know, I think the issue here is that a lot of people aren't aware that there's a difference between what's acceptable to their own personal screwed-up sense of morals, ethics and perspective; and what's acceptable in the eyes of the law. I very much doubt that Mark gives a crap for the views of some pseudonymed nobody on an internet forum, and I must say, my own tolerance for listening to your non-arguments has also run out.

    Grid Wars 2 will never die. It's out there and it's staying out there, no matter how much hypocritical guff Bizarre spew out about it, and ultimately that's all that matters. If you don't like the fact, you'll just have to sit in the corner and cry, because nobody really gives a damn. Cheerio!

  • Teeth #55 6 years ago

    Heh. Fed up with digging yourself into a logical corner, I guess. Nice kn0wning you.

  • Grom #56 6 years ago

    'Count the phrases and motifs coined by me'?

    What planet are you on?

    Be careful yourself and Derek Smart never end up in a room together, your enormous heads will probably begin to attract each other, geometry wars style, until they merge in some gigantic hyperhead of egotism, spraying internet arguments at gamma ray frequencies.

  • mingster #57 6 years ago

    It's true though the damage has been done already.
    The game exists, it always will, it's not going to magically disappear.

    Therefore why not work together and give people what they really want a proper Geometry Wars clone on the PC and Mac. Or an updated official version with the black hole farming and powerups but with Bizarres authorisation, hey maybe you could even charge for it and both parties make some money.

    So Bizarre how long do we have to wait for the official version?

  • chavatar #58 6 years ago

    "A parody"? More like a blatant rip-off of the previous post ;)

    Teeth - do I have permission to use "nice Kn0wning you" in future? (if it's yours, that is) :D

    Grom - they should call a game of this Ego Wars:Devolved

    Stu - I am surprised you want to differentiate between personal morals and the law, when you believe that IP law is biased in favour of the corporation over the consumer (a stance I very much sympathise with in general - in an age where legislation is generated by lobbying and justice is expensive). In fact I believe that it is your own sense of morals that stand behind your comments, since a court of law would most likely rule in favour of the 'superficial similarities' and the company with the resources to pursue this, over the little guy
    Edited by 2 at 21/08/06 @ 08:21

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #59 6 years ago

    "In fact I believe that it is your own sense of morals that stand behind your comments, since a court of law would most likely rule in favour of the 'superficial similarities' and the company with the resources to pursue this, over the little guy"

    Trust me, they wouldn't. Grid Wars 2 doesn't break a single law. Why do you think we never heard any more about the "Simpsons Road Rage vs Crazy Taxi" court case, to name but one? Anybody remember "Fighter's History vs Street Fighter 2"? Why are PopCap allowed to completely rip off other people's games for profit? If there was ANY chance of a court case for plagiarism working, then Mitchell would have crushed Zuma out of existence for being a blatant clone of Puzz Loop years ago. But they haven't, because there isn't. Bizarre are just bullies up against a little guy who doesn't want to fight them, for a whole bunch of reasons. But "because he'd lose" isn't one of them.

  • mingster #60 6 years ago

    I'm sure Stu is right on this.

    Think of all the multitude of Space Invaders, Pacman and more recent things like tetris and lumines freeware games that home programmers have coded.

    Can you name a single one that has been forced to stop being distributed by the courts because of IP infringement? I don't think so.

    Come on someone name a freeware author and game that has been forced to stop making his game under an official court injunction ... i bet you can't.
    Edited by 1 at 21/08/06 @ 09:30

  • Teeth #61 6 years ago

    That's some very selective lawsuit citation there Stuart.

    1up lawsuit article where precedent is set on clones of Tennis and (echoing this case, as some of the gameplay is changed but the graphics were cloned) Pac-Man.

    More lawsuits

    A law blog

  • chavatar #62 6 years ago

    Stu - thanks for a civilised answer. Perhaps I am getting a touch too cyncial in my old age!

    But I do believe ppl are getting increasingly litigious over IP, we will see more of this in the future, and, of this, a lot won't get get to court.

    Come on someone name a freeware author and game that has been forced to stop making his game under an official court injunction

    No and I can't be bothered to look. But I think we can all name at least one freeware author that has been forced to stop making his game under threat of legal action ;)

  • dr_faulk #63 6 years ago

    Forgive my ignorance having not read all the previous posts, but Geometry Wars is more similar to that game Battle Girl (look it up) with its grid-like structure. No black holes, but it is true that there are a lot of games out there that look and play the same, specifically games of this type.
    I think there is no harm in somebody doing their own version of a game - look at how many people cut their teeth on programming a version of tetris! And plageurism is the best compliment, etc etc.
    Since I have only briefly played Geometry Wars and not Grid Wars, I cannot comment on specific ideas that may have been borrowed.

  • mingster #64 6 years ago

    No and I can't be bothered to look. But I think we can all name at least one freeware author that has been forced to stop making his game under threat of legal action ;)

    'Threat of' and an actual official court injunction i think you will find mean two completely different things.. nice try

    Teeths links to 'actual lawsuits' are more grounded in fact though and is definately interesting reading. Looks like Company v Company Ip infringements HAVE held up.
    But none of these are against a small one man band.

    Would a lawyer take the case on knowing there's no money to be made out of suing a freeware author with no major financial clout? how much can you sue a freeware author for? He hasn't made any money out of you. You can only claim potential loss of earnings but they can't even claim that as they haven't a PC version available.

  • smelly #65 6 years ago

    I couldnt say whether i think stuart is right or not.

    As from past experience, i couldnt give a damn what he has to say on any topic. And all it reads to me is "blah blah blah blah im ace me.. look at me everbody.. blah blah blah"

    So I really couldnt give a damn about anything he has to say.

  • chavatar #66 6 years ago

    "'Threat of' and an actual official court injunction i think you will find mean two completely different things.. "

    You have a keen grasp of the obvious my friend :D. Well done for missing the point behind the comment entirely.

  • jamesbee #67 6 years ago

    "Bizarre are just bullies up against a little guy who doesn't want to fight them"

    How on earth did you come to this ridiculous conclusion? Perhaps the point escapes you that it was Bizarre Creations who created both GW and GW:RE. The first game given away for free and the second charged at half the cost of most other Arcade titles.

    Someone else, of their own admission, uses this game, it's graphics, gameplay features, spawning patterns, enemy types, black holes, copying GW:RE's entire "look and feel" and yet you side consistently with it. I have read your glowing review of Grid Wars 2, a review in which you make a few passing comments regarding it's blatant plagiarism of GW:RW and then proceed to commend and applaud Grid Wars for many of the features it has directly copied, as

    "possibly the single most perfect piece of pure videogame design that this reporter has seen in the last decade."

    I'll be sure to pass on your complements to Bizarre Creations.

    The real shame here is, instead of encouraging the creator of Grid Wars 2 to use his programming knowledge and ideas to create a unique game, be that a robotron or not. You re-enforce the idea that he has somehow had his creativity stripped from him and his work of genius destroyed. The mistake he made and has now paid for was copying GW:RE so closely to begin with and for that he deserves to be criticized, not applauded.

    I doubt, from your previous responses that you will manage anything beyond name calling or arrogant attempts to pass off your opinion as fact or higher intelligence. You are after all the man that ended your review of PGR3 with "F..k off, PGR3 fans. Seriously, please, f..k off".
    Edited by 1 at 21/08/06 @ 12:00

  • Carrybagma #68 6 years ago

    Hardly matter anymore does it? Mark I. isn't going to contest Bizarre's request, so that's that.

    Be interesting to see if they persue anyone else hosting the .exe though.

  • PearOfAnguish #69 6 years ago

    Be interesting to see if they persue anyone else hosting the .exe though.

    Be a waste of time unless some of the larger download sites are carrying it. Once it's out there you can't really stop it from being downloaded and without developer support or a central homepage it'll eventually fade into obscurity.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #70 6 years ago

    "1up lawsuit article where precedent is set on clones of Tennis and (echoing this case, as some of the gameplay is changed but the graphics were cloned) Pac-Man. "

    Oh dear. Talk about selective quoting, indeed. KC Munchkin is practically the only time that any kind of plagiarism case has ever been upheld relating to gaming. It was the best part of 30 years ago, and as I know only too well, you can't legislate for the occasional loopy judge getting it wrong, especially since the old fool probably barely understood what a videogame was.

    I assume that by "Tennis" you mean "Tetris", and that case isn't about clones, it's about games actually CALLED Tetris - that is to say, it's a licencing dispute, not a plagiarism one. All the parties in the Tetris case thought they were producing official licenced versions, not "clones". I can point you to the full, incredibly complex and confusing, story if you like. The most relevant part of that feature, though, is the bit on the karate games, where it notes:

    "Data East initially won the lawsuit and had Epyx's game pulled, but Epyx appealed and the US Federal Court reversed the judgment, upholding the right of game developers to create and distribute products that express the same ideas, even if the products are similar."

    THAT precedent is the one that's held sway ever since, and if you can name a successful videogame look-and-feel suit since then - or indeed at any time in the last 20 years - then perhaps your argument would be due some respect. But you can't, so it isn't. You don't know what you're talking about, whereas I do, and that's the long and the short of it.
    Edited by 1 at 21/08/06 @ 16:02

  • Teeth #71 6 years ago

    No, I meant Tennis, as in Tennis / Pong.

    Regardless, my original point still stands: if Incitti had not made his game look and behave so much like Geometry Wars, or if he had got permission before infringing on Bizarre's IP, he wouldn't be in this position now. As Bizarre note, if only such people used their powers to create individual video games instead of (however borderline you want to call it) clones, there'd be tons more awesome games around. Surely we can agree on that.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #72 6 years ago

    Sadly, I don't think I *can* agree on that, no. Heavens, if there's one thing that the last 25 years of videogaming proves, surely it's that originality is very rarely the route to success? And if someone writes a game that isn't a success (however awesome it might be), they're a lot less likely to write another one.

    Grid Wars 2 is an awesome game, and greatly different in play from its inspiration. Had it not been for the interest and support generated by its superficial similarity to GW:RE, I think there's very reasonable grounds to believe it wouldn't exist at all, or certainly not in as advanced a state as it does. So if we all took your position, we'd have fewer awesome games, not more.

    I'll say it again, because everyone's conveniently ignoring it - the entire games industry is completely and utterly built on a foundation of plagiarism. Practically everyone now designing, coding or publishing videogames started out by cloning existing ideas. Take that away and three-quarters of them would never have bothered, and who would we have left to write Dead Rising then?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #73 6 years ago

    And of course, Dead Rising IN NO WAY heavily plagiarises anyone else's ideas, does it...?

  • Teeth #74 6 years ago

    Fair points. Dead Rising is a great example of this sort of thing. The setting is completely ripped from Dawn Of The Dead. While that's probably the only part that can really be said to have been completely lifted, it still means the game will get extra attention because of the work that inspired it. The stories, characters and details of the location are all completely new which IMO relieves it from being accused of actual plagiarism.

    The whole point of all this is to encourage creativity, not stifle it, and I know it looks like it's the other way around here but I don't agree with that view. I think you're too cynical about how good products will spread by word of mouth. Why is Grid Wars 2 the GeoWars clone everyone is talking about? Out of all the clones, this is the one in the news. I think it would still have been as popular if Incitti had used different visuals. It's OK to say your game was inspired by something else - Dead Rising even has a disclaimer at the start - so I think if he'd only lifted parts of the gameplay and not the visuals as well he'd have been fine and his game would still have been popular and have been put around by word of mouth with the "Geometry Wars on PC" tag.

    Anyway I think I'm done here.
    Edited by 1 at 21/08/06 @ 17:13

  • Teeth #75 6 years ago

    Just one last thing :)

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #76 6 years ago

    Not the first (or, I imagine, last) time anyone's brought that up, and of course it's not the same thing - if anything, it's the opposite. Mark never tried to claim that Grid Wars 2 wasn't inspired by GW:RE - indeed, he openly admitted that it was - nor was he charging for it. The difference with the rubbish football game (and also with Train-Tracking, Stu stalkers) is that those people were trying to claim the ideas as their own original work, flat-out refusing to acknowledge the game they were copying stuff from, and also charging money. And as I pretty clearly state in the first two sentences, that's the thing that pissed me off, not the fact that they were copying the ideas as such.


    "After the recent debacle of Train-Tracking, it's dismaying to see someone else ripping off another of Sensible Software's games, without a single credit or acknowledgement and charging money for it.

    I'm a big fan of remakes of old games, on two conditions - that the author doesn't steal the credit for inventing the game, and that they don't charge for it."
    Edited by 2 at 21/08/06 @ 18:13

  • msephton #77 6 years ago

    I've lost what little faith I had in Bizarre Creations. Fools.

  • PenBullet #78 1 year ago

    Bah gah
    He should've just redrawn the Player sprite. =(