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Grid Wars author's reflections News
PC Xbox 360 News by Tom Bramwell
Despite similarities, Geometry Wars clone Grid Wars - shut down at the barrel of a legal gun this month - began life quite detached from the game it ended up imitating.
That's according to developer Mark Incitti, who told Eurogamer that the project originally began as a reaction to news that there were no plans for a PC version of the popular Live Arcade title.
He also denies that Microsoft and Bizarre Creations have taken legal action against him, but has expressed doubts about their claims that Grid Wars was affecting 360 sales of Geometry Wars - and also highlighted the irony of a Smash TV/Robotron clone developer complaining about being copied.
"I loved Smash TV and enjoyed that style of game and began working on my own version. I enjoy the challenge of programming games that people enjoy playing," he told Eurogamer.
"I also liked the visual effect of their grid. I had some old code that did something similar that I modified to do a displacement distortion. I threw that into a Robotron clone I had made for a coding competition and took that as the basis for Grid Wars. I knew I had something when my four year-old niece played it and said it was fun!"
"I had many unique elements in there - that initially people were pushing me to remove - [like] power-ups, generators, triangle-chainers, various control methods, skill levels, etc."
"The graphics and behaviours ended up being very similar to Geometry Wars - I had input from people constantly telling me to change this and that - make this brighter/faster, etc. I resisted for a while - but that's futile, isn't it? So the game evolved into more of a clone than anticipated."
And it wasn't long after that that he heard from Bizarre. Following an exchange of emails in early April, during which Incitti offered to make changes to the game's name and aesthetic - key elements of Bizarre's argument, this week, that people were confusing the two products.
He also offered to include credits and links to Bizarre, he says, but apparently his offer fell on deaf ears, and then a fortnight ago he received an email asking him to stop distributing the game. He duly obliged.
"I don't know if legally they have the right to shut it down - but I took it down out of respect for their developers and the cool work they do. I don't really think it is affecting their sales on Xbox 360 - but if they do want to move into the PC market then it's better if the confusion is cleared up," he conceded.
"I hope that they are approaching the rest of the 'clone' makers with a [cease and desist] stance," he added. "My game may have been popular, but there were several others that had gameplay that was closer to Geometry Wars than Grid Wars is."
Whether they do or not remains to be seen. Microsoft told us that they and Bizarre would not be commenting on Grid Wars any further for legal reasons.
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Actually as their game is in effect a clone of robotron, I think a simple graphic and name change would have covered grid wars. The only IP I see in it is the grid effect that they have in the evolved version.
The "We can't comment for legal reasons" crap is because they don't have a legal leg to stand on =) |
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This makes me sad...
Yeah close down all the other geometry wars clones as well then on the PC including the new one thats just been coded for the PSP and every other robotron clone while your at it, Then release a PC version and watch every one refuse to buy it or pirate it out of principle for your bully boy tactics. Grid Wars may have been a homage/rip off but it didn't play the same it was actually very different gameplay wise .. I personally reckon he should just re-release it with different graphics and tell them to go f##k themselves |
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stuarty_2003
18/08/06 @ 13:51
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He'll probably get a job at Bizarre now.
Edit: Or Microsoft will buy a share in him.
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most recently on 18/08/06 @ 14:51
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if you haven't played it (as many people seem to have not done before commenting)
You would realise that a simple change to the robotron gameplay is the gravity and the DAMN BLACK HOLES. That makes a big difference and was also copied by grid wars - it ended a massively close clone to geometry wars and I stand by bizzare wanting to close down grid wars - they should also close down as many as possible of the other direct copies too. It's like designing a car and calling it the Jaguar XJ6 and somebody takes tha car and makes a copy of it from scratch that looks the same handles the same and is fundamentally the same car but sell it as the Puma ZK6 - would you get away with that? No. |
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stuarty_2003
18/08/06 @ 13:58
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@ Darkedge
the Jaguar XJ6 is just a Ford Model T clone anyway .......... Which was a Lada clone in itself. |
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The_Foo_Fighter
18/08/06 @ 15:20
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He ripped off Geometry Wars. End of. Any ancillary points he raises about Bizarre ripping Smash TV et al are hardly grounds for justification of his efforts.
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I think Bizarre are justified in stopping Gridwars distribution.
I love playing Grid Wars, and I think it's actually more fun than the original (slower paced and more strategic) even if the graphics of the original are far superior. If you look at the author website of Grid Wars, you'll see that pretty much all his games are derived copies in Blitz basic of original arcade games. Nothing really wrong with that really, but anyone who played both can see that Grid Wars is clearly a copy, both in gameplay mechanics as in graphics. Some changes in tempo and other such parameters does not change that. |
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I am mirroring GridWars 5.4 here
http://www.omnicrom.com select the gaming menu and its at the bottom. enjoy And all of you people that reckon the poor freeware author deserved being bullied by a big corporation well i hope you all get your just deserves on the negative Karma youve created. The poor guy was providing a service to PC owners no official PC version of the game existed so untill then he was justified in his actions to bring PC owners a taste of gaming fun for free. It's not like he profited out of it. You should be ashamed of yourselves and help the small indy/bedroom coders of this world. If it wasn't for them you wouldn't have any of your modern videogames. Most of you don't deserve to even own a 360 for not knowing your heritage. Masterthief you are the worst for the vitriol you spouted in a previous comments thread.
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most recently on 18/08/06 @ 16:53
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Rev. Stuart Campbell
18/08/06 @ 15:56
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The latest versions of GW2 (PC and Mac versions) can be downloaded from this feature, and will remain there permanently.
http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.co... |
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The_Foo_Fighter
18/08/06 @ 15:57
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The 'poor freeware author' didn't profit from his actions, eh?
He didn't get any exposure by the media, traffic to his site, not to mention a nice addition to his portfolio should he wish to join a developer. I can't understand your logic; it's like saying: "Well, they never released Big Movie 10 on VHS, so I'm going to copy it onto that media and freely distribute it. No harm done." |
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"I can't understand your logic; it's like saying: "Well, they never released Big Movie 10 on VHS, so I'm going to copy it onto that media and freely distribute it. No harm done."
Apart from the fact he didn't just copy it as in tape it from Betamax to VHS. He did the same as refilming the whole film from scratch as a homage to the original then transfered his new creation onto VHS. Although actually he coded his game from scratch using a freely available games programming tool called Blitz Basic. Last time i checked all budding home programmers using blitz basic are making clones or recreations of existing arcade games to sharpen up their programming skills prior to getting a job with a developer then making games for you to play so you can then in turn slag them off. |
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The_Foo_Fighter
18/08/06 @ 16:11
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You seem to regard his actions as a public service which, to be honest, is a fair assumption.
Let's put it this way, though. You create a game for the PC. People love it and you make lots of money. Seeing a gap in the market, someone decides to 'create' a version of yourgame for the Mac, from which you derive no profits whatsoever and he gains kudos and makes a name for himself off the back of your hard work. Do you applaud him and say: "Great. He stole my ideas, my designs, my whole damn game. I wish him all the best. More power to him." Sure you do, because you clearly are a King among men. |
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despite posting partialy in jest I think the car analogy is fair.
I can see a lineage from a Model T to a modern car as I can from Robotron to Geometry Wars and in fact to the dual stick move / aim used in most console FPSs and Third person games up to Lost Planet which has a lot of elements from robotron and gauntlet. I can also see where copying and homage come in. Yes it's a different game, and yes gravitron and the like also had gravity and black holes many years ago, but Grid Wars seems awfully close to Geometry Wars as requesting it stop being distributed for valid commercial reasons is fair. I can see the other guy's point, but he hasn't been harmed and can still release a new game with the name and graphical changes he suggested if he wants. He could also throw in the ideas he felt pressured to remove. It's still have four wheels, but it'll be in his interest to tweak the handling and maybe throw in a remodelled chasis |
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"In itself that'd be passingly interesting - particularly for anyone who didn't want to fork out £300 for a state-of-the-art, all-singing, all-dancing Xbox 360 in order to play a vector-graphics Robotron game - but while GW2 is undeniably closely related to GW:RE"
So Rev. Stuart Campbell managed to say in once sentence that it's an "undeniably" close copy of that game, and a nice alternative to paying for the original. Yet, he still defends it... I'd be interested to know if you would still feel the same way if he were in fact charging for Grid Wars?
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Heh. I can't quite agree with everything Rev. Stuart Campbell is saying (about Grid Wars I firmly believe it needs to change the name and all the graphical assets), but I do like his article about piracy being the only preserver of the gaming's industry heritage.
I particularly like this bit: "The reality is that piracy and emulation are in truth phenomena whose primary influence on gaming is to save its legacy from the greedy, narrow-minded, short-sighted recklessness of those who control the worldwide videogames industry." |
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If one guy could make such a good clone, makes you wonder why Bizzare are charging us for it at all. I hate their bully tactics, nobody should be able to say they have the sole right to a gameplay mechanic, it's bad for the industry which has through-out history made progress by copying one another and then one-upping it.
sure it's a clone, but it's also all his own work. what gives them the right to say he cannot give it out for free? if he was charging then they might have a toe (or a small leg) to stand on but a freebie? screw Bizzare creations.
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most recently on 18/08/06 @ 18:36
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Rev. Stuart Campbell
18/08/06 @ 17:51
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"So Rev. Stuart Campbell managed to say in once sentence that it's an "undeniably" close copy of that game, and a nice alternative to paying for the original. Yet, he still defends it..."
I do love the way you cut my quote off just before the relevant bit pointing out how GW2 is in fact very different to GW:RE, despite being clearly related to it. |
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It's not good buisness to clamp down on someone who fills a market niche you haven't provided for. That's effort that doesn't bring in more. It IS good buisness to take over/assimilate/buy that niche-marketfiller and then bring in more.
There is no official geometry wars for the PC Mac. Clearly though there is an audience that would really like it. Someone elese gives it to them on their own free time and effort. Why not simply buy it from him? And since this variant is considered to be deeper of substance then the original, why not hire him to develop new versions. For fricks sake, you hire one man and that's all you'd need to fulfill this market game need to design, develop and code a quite popular franchise. |
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@Chtulie: you can't buy it from him and then sell it, people won't buy something when they can find it online for free, or when they used to have it for free. Besides that, the Gridwars game is technically quite different from the original game (enemy AI, grid, handling) and I doubt the code could be ported easily to be a perfect 1 on 1 copy of the original.
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I understand that you feel it has different game play elements to GW:RE, however, the fact remains, in your words it is "undeniably closely related" in both visual style and basic premise to a game created by Bizzare some years ago. I really honestly can't see a defence for it. Regardless of the adjustments he might have since made.
I can't understand personally why he would choose to copy the exact style of the game and so many of the basic elements and not expect that eventually he would be asked to cease doing so. We are not talking EA here, crashing down on some small developer who was trying to improve the sports genre. Bizarre have paid their dues, worked hard and I am sure the programmers have earned the right to profit from their creations. It's not up to anyone else to simply decide their game should be ported to another system, game play enhancements or not. I wish the creator of Grid Wars the best of luck in any future projects and perhaps will use the lesson learnt here to create an original IP of his own, robotron related or not. It certainly seems, based on the support here that he wouldn't have problems selling it, unless of course, someone were to offer an enhanced version for free.
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most recently on 19/08/06 @ 00:33
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Carrybagma
18/08/06 @ 23:44
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Ooooh - developer envy ;o)
Here's a suggestion for Mark Incitti: make Grid Wars 3, and make it sufficiently different from GW:RE to keep the lawyers away. So, who do I thank for this wonderful game? Mr.I or Bizarre? In playing this, I've added another reason why a 360 would be a good choice of console, so shouldn't Mr.I get some credit for that? |
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These homebrew programming language communities have a "we're not harming anyone" mantra that they start chanting whenever they're essentially ripping off other games. A lot of it is done, as with Mr. Incitti, out of an appreciation of the original but it's still a rather naive 'group-hug' vibe in there that doesn't help matters.
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Come on, this isn't the same at all, it looks virtually identical. The casual gamer isn't going to fully grasp the difference in gameplay. Ask yourself: would Incitti have made this game, looking like it does, if he had never seen or played Geometry Wars? Thought not. The very kindest word you can use to describe it is a homage, but words like plagiarism and blatant seem to apply more readily.
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There seams to be a clear difference between (I am guessing) industry poeple (who do not have gamers interests at heart) and gamers
I think (and have said) that this is disgusting, and is further evidence of bully boy corporations taking away consumers and authors freedom I dont care about the law - we are being screwed. And the law is clearly being maipulated by corporations to lie their pockets. Screw Bizarre creations. I will not buy from then again |
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Oh, come on, the guy totally and purposefully ripped Geo Wars right off.
It looked blatantly the same but was crap to play. Anyone remember the Great Giana Sisters? Well then, are you going to stop buying from Nintendo too? I expected better from EG. Bizarre are totally in the right to protect their own IP. Whether Bizarre want to create a PC version or not is irrelevant. If he coped Mario Bros in just the same way that he copied GW, Nintendo would be on his back.
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most recently on 19/08/06 @ 13:22
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Nice to hear his point of view, for sure. 'specially since I got a little irate over it on the other thread. Thanks mr. Tom!
As I suspected, he certainly wasn't plagurising out of malice. Still, I don't think that makes it 'okay'. Just makes him look a bit naive.
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most recently on 19/08/06 @ 13:53
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Sure, people who work in the industry are likely to get a bit more worked up about the whole issue. Not because it sets any meaningful kind of precedence, but perhaps just because of the reactions of certain people.
There's no law involved, just common courtesy and originality. No-one is being screwed except the people who came up with the concept and creation at Bizarre. If the situations had been reversed and Incitti had come up with the gameplay and visual concept of the game, and then Bizarre had released a virtually identical copy without any sort of acknowledgement, would your reaction be the same? Of course it bloody wouldn't. And just because one party has a bit more money than the other. With the amount of cash actually going to developers nowadays you'd better bloody believe they want to protect their IPs. They are people too you know, and are entitled to feel proud of their creations just like one man operations. If you are going to pick this as some figurehead case for a rant about stealing ideas or 'indies versus The Man' you have picked entirely the wrong example for so many MANY reasons. |
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Rev. Stuart Campbell
19/08/06 @ 15:08
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Grow up, you idiot. "Screwed"? In what way? Tell us honestly that you think the sales of a £3 Xbox 360 game have been damaged by the availability of a similar game on a totally different format. Tell us honestly that you think GW2 has cost Bizarre more sales than it generated by raising awareness of the "real" GW:RE. Let's find out just *exactly* how stupid a position you're attempting to maintain here.
If it wasn't for plagiarism, Bizarre Creations - and the rest of the world videogames industry - wouldn't exist at all, because the ENTIRE VIDEOGAMES INDUSTRY is built on a foundation of plagiarism and always has been. Idiot.
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most recently on 19/08/06 @ 16:10
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There's a difference between plagiarism and inspiration. The correct method is to expand on ideas and concepts to create improved derivative works. Saying that the games industry is built on plagiarism is wrong, because if it were we would still be playing Pong.
As for Grom's comment, there're more ways to be screwed than just financially. IP is property too. "screwed" is a little strong, granted, but their IP was stolen by Incitti, who could've readily made the required changes to cover himself from this kind of action. |
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Rev. Stuart Campbell
19/08/06 @ 18:25
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Can't you read? (1) He offered to do exactly that, and (2) he DID "expand on ideas and concepts to create improved derivative works", as I explained in very considerable detail over 4000 words in the feature that's been linked from here and from many of the news pieces on the story. But of course, THE GRAPHICS LOOK THE SAME so none of the kneejerk idiots on here care about any of that.
If you can't be bothered to look at what gets said, don't be surprised when people think you're an arse. |
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"If it wasn't for plagiarism, Bizarre Creations - and the rest of the world videogames industry - wouldn't exist at all, because the ENTIRE VIDEOGAMES INDUSTRY is built on a foundation of plagiarism and always has been"
"he DID 'expand on ideas and concepts to create improved derivative works'" Plagiarism or no? Just checking. I found a dictionary helpful here |
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Bluebird:
not literally buy it and sell the same thing. Buy the AI, the patterns, the hording and combo system, the black hole stuff. Then ditch the name and the graphics, apply it to your own engine and your own game name and sell it. There's still a whole world of diffirence between a part-time creation like this and a full-time product (lots of polish). Also regarding videogame design being based on plagiarism: very true. It's more and more apparent the further back you go when outer features (the looks of the game) where much more similar. These days it's much more a look at the actual mechanics which are depressingly similar. The way gridwars rises above most of the muck is that it expands on the original rather then being a lesser copy (the Godfather game for instance, lesser to the film, lesser to GTA and a gazillion others). |
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Stuart, are you proud of the work you have done in the past? I imagine you are, and that you feel happy that you have created something.
When I said 'screwed' (which was just taking a word from the poster before me, who claimed gamers were being 'screwed') I meant that someone else is profiting, maybe not financially but in terms of reputation or publicity, from the ideas of another. Do you not think that the individuals at Bizarre might be proud of GWRE, and upset if someone copies it after the fact? Grid Wars would never have been made or look like it does without GWRE. Just because they are part of a company, somehow to you their views are immediately subsumed beneath some corporate entity, and so no longer worthy of account. The fact that they have asked politely for Incitti to stop distributing Grid Wars means that they care. I doubt there would have been any problem if his version had you shooting things on a deformable water background with different enemies, even if it had identical gameplay to now. It seems like you're deliberately refusing to see the very large similarities between the two games just to make a point :/ |
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MrGrumpy.au
20/08/06 @ 12:48
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Theres no point in arguing as "whats done is done" and nothing's going to change it.
If you want to feel sorry for anyone try sparing a thought for Atari, Taito, Namco, Sega and Nintendo cause they really got "taken to the cleaners" in the '70s -> '90s where rival manufacturers would just disassemble the games source and make small changes to the games to sell as competetion (on their own cheaper hardware, using the actual disassembled source!). Also the home computer market has always had a huge number of non authorised Arcade clones, but these were written from scratch usually by a fan of the actual arcade machine (mind you some of those clones were better than the originals, but some were complete trash). It will be interesting to see if they go after everyone else though. And IAmBatman talked about (on page 1) a PC version coming shortly now if it's a Vista only port that'll definately slow it's sales. (after seeing what they are doing with HALO 2 it wouldn't suprise me) I'm just glad I followed Grid Wars 2 all the way through its development because it really turned into a fantastic game and looks like it's turning into a cult hit after all the news against it. |
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