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Mythic "flattered" by WOW's PVP changes News

MMO PC News by James Lee

21 October, 2008

Blizzad's move to beef up open-world player-versus-player combat in World of Warcraft is "absolutely a reaction to Warhammer," according to Mythic boss Mark Jacobs.

Speaking to GamesIndustry.biz, Jacobs talked about the latest PVP features to be included in the World of Warcraft expansion, Wrath of the Lich King, many of which, he claims, are based on Warhammer Online.

These include a new zone dedicated to open-world PVP called Lake Wintergrasp. Warhammer Online specialises in such zones. It also allows players to level their characters through PVP combat, something Blizzard is considering implementing.

"Oh absolutely," responded Jacobs, when asked if this was a move by Blizzard to position World of Warcraft against Warhammer Online. "I think imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

"You have a game that's been out for four years, they've never put in world PVP like ours, they've never been able to level through PVP like in ours. I think it's absolutely a reaction to Warhammer," Jacobs said. "It wasn't like all of a sudden the idea of open-world PVP or levelling through PVP came into their heads and they went 'nobody's ever done this before'."

"I don't think it was accidental that they're talking about doing it when Warhammer comes out. Four years and suddenly, miraculously, at the same time Warhammer comes out that's when they start talking about these things... I think it was Jeff Kaplan who said they like to look at other games and learn from them - well, I'm flattered."

It's worth noting that WOW has had organised open-world PVP features for some time - since before first expansion The Burning Crusade, in fact. But they have never been located in dedicated areas, and have traditionally struggled to attract much interest from players.

Jacobs went on to discuss the uncertainty involved in predicting how many of the currently registered users will be converted into paying subscribers, following the end of the 30-day free trial that comes packaged with the boxed product.

"If we're successful, we'll have a high conversion rate and we'll keep the vast majority of our subs," he explained, adding: "No one has been billed yet, so we won't know this really for at least several months, in terms of how well we're doing, unless we start off horribly."

"Everything we've done internally, in terms of looking at internal polls, people posting on forums, emails from people, all we've seen so far is that we're well on track."

For more, check out Mark Jacobs' full interview with GamesIndustry.biz.

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Comments: 1-50 of 56 in total | next 50 »

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farticusmaximus
21/10/08 @ 11:56
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If Halaa isnt openworld PvP in a dedicated zone then what in the name of sweet sweet christmas turkey is it?
Dizzy
21/10/08 @ 12:03
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Halaa? ROFL :)

You will be lucky if there is one battle a day.

WoW cannot add open world PvP, it just isn't structured around it. Watch it fail epically in WotLK.
spimmy
21/10/08 @ 12:09
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there was also the towers in epl and also the sand in silithus
ZuluHero
21/10/08 @ 12:12
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HAHA-laa!

Nagrand is a PvE zone with a hub in the middle that nobody ever bothers with. And i'm on a PvP server.

If WAR makes blizzard create a better World-PvP game then i'm all for it.
butler`
21/10/08 @ 12:12
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"I think imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

In that case you sure flattered Blizzard, Mr Jacobs.
Dizzy
21/10/08 @ 12:13
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>there was also the towers in epl and also the sand in silithus

All a waste of time.

Seriously.. WoW has lost all sense of "war" (no pun intended). I bump into the "evil" horde guys all the time and usually they just /wave or /dance at me. The original had some sense of conflict, TBC became a total joke and WotLK will be very similar (again with a main shared central hub). If there is no hate between player groups, you will never have good PvP.
Monkey_Puncher
21/10/08 @ 12:13
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I'm no WOW fan, but I thought they were talking about dedicated areas of the map for PVP in Lich King over a year ago?
Oldern
21/10/08 @ 12:13
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"Do not push it" is the right phrase for this.
It is not like there were zero world-pvp content before.
Rizo
21/10/08 @ 12:16
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This guy should really STFU!!

WAR IS EPIC FAIL.

Most of the guys I know are back in WOW.

Wait for server merge in the next 6 months!
berelain
21/10/08 @ 12:24
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Mythic "absolutely up their own arses" despite WAR not being the all-singing, all-dancing wonder MMO they seem to think it is.
Dizzy
21/10/08 @ 12:24
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>Most of the guys I know are back in WOW.

Strange.. most of the guys I know have left WoW for WAR.

You know too many carebears.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 21/10/08 @ 13:24
farticusmaximus
21/10/08 @ 12:24
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@Dizzy

I'm not saying openworld PvP makes much, if any, impact in WoW but the guy is claiming WoW copied WAR in this respect and that's clearly not the case.


@ZuluHero

"If WAR makes blizzard create a better World-PvP game then i'm all for it."

I agree totally. I am considering picking up WAR after christmas and maybe drop a couple of my PvP chars from WoW. Got 4 raiders and 3 PvPers so can afford to let a few languish..
ZuluHero
21/10/08 @ 12:31
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Most of the guys I know are back in WOW.

I'm with Dizzy on this one, we lost a serious number of guildies when WAR was launched. Only a couple have returned for the 3.0 patch, but even some of them have subsequently gone back to WAR again. And the patch has been out for less than a week :(
dr_faulk
21/10/08 @ 12:32
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"I think imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

Way to quote Nintendo.
Orange
21/10/08 @ 12:35
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I think both WAR and WoW have lost out. WoW lost players to other games and hasn't had most of them back. WAR started off brightly but seems to have lost a lot of people even before subbing time, let alone after.
Kami
21/10/08 @ 12:41
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As said, though it's not actively persued there has been open-world PvP in World of Warcraft for a very long time. It's not done brilliantly, admittedly, usually sparks up rivalry for a few months and then cools off. But it's been there. Players can't deny that Blizzard have tried to incorporate PvP activities, and once upon a time PvP servers delivered a lot of fun on the rivalry front.

WAR has plenty of it's own problems to worry about. A few days ago, the people behind WAR seemed very mature and were happy to share the market. Clearly, this didn't go down well with their thinktank or execs or whatever and they demanded they come out a few days later and try to diss WoW.

Which is a shame, because the games offer different experiences. WoW may have been trying for ages, but WAR seems to do it rather well. But one game is built around it and the other is built around a largely PvE game, with epic boss battles.

Some people should just keep their mouths shut when they're on a roll...
ZuluHero
21/10/08 @ 12:42
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"...but seems to have lost a lot of people even before subbing time, let alone after."

There are still long queues for both. And re-subbing time for WAR has been and gone. The US are going mental over WAR atm.
LittleVoice
21/10/08 @ 12:43
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Onion News Network report on the next expansion pack for WOW.

World of World of Warcraft
Eraysor
21/10/08 @ 12:47
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I agree with him in that WoW is probably reacting to WAR's PvP.

I'm not going to carry on playing when my free sub runs out mainly because there are simply too many amazing games appearing over the next couple of weeks :S
Royal Fool
21/10/08 @ 12:58
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dr_faulk: Nintendo didn't coin that phrase. I hope you're being intentionally stupid here.
Fodder
21/10/08 @ 13:03
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"This guy should really STFU!!"

That's probably quite a rude thing to do if you're being interviewed, to be fair.
Gaol
21/10/08 @ 13:34
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This isn't new, Blizzard have never been shy of taking good ideas from elsewhere; and then implementing them better. It's all about spit and polish.
Lemming81
21/10/08 @ 13:42
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@Gaol: Except that in this case, Blizzard are trying to shoe-horn in world PvP/leveling as a knee-jerk reaction to WAR, when it's a game that was designed for primarily PvE. Just look at the mess the PvP-centric changes have made to the game already.

WAR, on the other hand is designed for PvP AND PvE (favouring the former, obviously). So ad-hoc additions wouldn't really hurt it. Not that they ever need to as Mythic/GW are pretty good at coming up with things by themselves...
Edited 1 times, most recently on 21/10/08 @ 14:43
Lemming81
21/10/08 @ 13:46
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"WAR has plenty of it's own problems to worry about. A few days ago, the people behind WAR seemed very mature and were happy to share the market. Clearly, this didn't go down well with their thinktank or execs or whatever and they demanded they come out a few days later and try to diss WoW.

Actually, if you look back at the history of all this, Jacobs basically said he'd had enough when seeing WoW execs bashing WAR in interviews when they had no reason to feel threatened with their sub numbers. He's just trying to redress the balance.
Orange
21/10/08 @ 13:48
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To be fair to Jacobs one of the WoW devs made a post about a week or so ago listing all of WARs unique features and saying Blizzard were either going to implement them or were looking into it. That's pretty cheeky and shameless. Blizzard do love feeding off other people's innovation and making money out of it.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 21/10/08 @ 14:50
iokthemonkey
21/10/08 @ 13:52
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Don' t forget that a number of Lich King's "new features" have been in LOTRO online for some time, too...
Mogs
21/10/08 @ 13:55
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'"I think imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

In that case you sure flattered Blizzard, Mr Jacobs.'

My thoughts exactly.
Pike
21/10/08 @ 13:59
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A lot of rivalry nonsense spouted by WoW, and WAR players alike. It is obvious that Blizzard are reacting to competition by trying to implement popular features of their rivals, just as Mythic are trying to implement WoW's popular concepts. That is what competition brings. In the end both WoW and WAR players will benefit.

This Mythic persons comment seemed straightforward and uncontroversial to me, who has never even considered leaving WoW for WAR.
redstanza
21/10/08 @ 14:01
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I didnt play WoW much as i was into SWG at the time, currently enjoying WAR though ;)

I think SWG's Restuss was the first open world PvP i came across, ok not a very big 'open world' but it was all there.
It also included a form of leveling and rewards for PvP in this zone.

Games will always use the best bits from other games, it is how they evolve.
MightyMouse
21/10/08 @ 14:01
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WoW definitely likes to utilise good ideas that other people have had, no doubt about it. At the same time it's frequently hard to pin down exactly which ideas were taken from where, since things like the pvp zones have been known about for at least a year and trying to integrate more pvp into pve zones has been attempted since pre-TBC, as you point out. Getting xp in bg's is probably more knee-jerk since for a long time blizzard said they didn't want to do that.

All in all Jacobs should be flattered, but he should also realise that this doesn't necessarily mean he made the better game.
Iora
21/10/08 @ 14:06
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@butler & Mogs

You do realise Blizzard raped Games Workshop for all they were worth right? Where do you think Starcraft and Warcraft came from? Warhammer my dear postee.

Known fact that Blizzard DO NOT create unique ideas, they DO NOT take risks like that. The take an existing idea an established formula and they spit shine it till it sparkles. They have alot of talented people to make it shine but they DO NOT have an original idea in there heads.

Call there games and work strategy, good business sense/cowardice/complacency/Intelligence but dont call it original.

jesus.

Edited 1 times, most recently on 21/10/08 @ 15:07
anomagnus
21/10/08 @ 14:11
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HALAA - OPEN RVR

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

oh wait, wait...

BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

I'll tell you what Halaa is

FUCKING GASH

As for Rizo, didnt you post some where about server merges after a month?

as for orange, where, oh where do people like you get these magic figures? You say war has a lost a lot of subbers? where is this news posted? where are the figures or news releases? or is it forum data? always reliable

total time played in WAR so far = 200 plus hours

can anyone thats currently bitching about the game say the same?

or did you fanny out after the first level, because, boo hoo, it was so hard, waa waa

this isnt fucking WoW, you dont get some starting zone killing bloody giant chickens to ease you in, and a bloody nicey, nice world where every one is a bloody great guy

you better be pvping after 2 fucking levels, and if you dont enjoy it, sling your hook, its not called WARhammer for nothing

sunday alone, was an apex of online gaming for me, in a core group of about 40 people, fighting against 50 or 60 destruction across an entire zone, not some bullshit relay race like AV

War has its issues, christ, its a month old, but i'm fascinated by the fortune tellers like Rizo, who have their parents on hand with a 12 foot map to help them tell their arse from their face, able to predict the future.

tell you what rizo, since you're telling the future and all, why dont you tell me the lottery numbers for next week

Edited 1 times, most recently on 21/10/08 @ 15:15
Kremlik
21/10/08 @ 14:19
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Same reasoning as before: A lot of this is in the short term - yea Blizzard will have new 'features' to hook players back in but only the real die hards will stay with WoW once WotLK has been 'completed'. Remember when we found out that half of Blizzard's 'millions' of WoW players were actally from the east (before anyone says it I'm NOT say their all farmers) the Westen market is still pritty much game for all.

Plus think about it all those 'leaving WAR' are they actally ALL going back to WoW? of course not actally many i've hear from are former DAoC players, plus WoW dispite Blizzard's boasting isn't the only other MMO out there worth going to and yet again whos to say players wont come back to WAR when changes do happen? They've done it with WoW, are they not 'allowed' to do the same with other games?

WAR may not be 'bigger then WoW' but like LOTRO and EVE it's got quallity - unlike a lot of MMOs we've seen come and die out - all three including WoW wont be leaving us any time soon. Thats a good thing really as Blizzard have proven all it'll do is improve the quality of all games as they'll just bounce off each other :)
butler`
21/10/08 @ 14:20
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260 hours to be precise anomagnus, and i'm back on wow with everyone else :p

it dies at 40, predictably.
Emth
21/10/08 @ 14:37
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I agree with what he said, things like achievements seem to come out of the blue (I was a WoW player for almost 4 years) surely in reaction to the ToK in WAR, not to mention easily accessible and varied titles.

The copying goes both ways and there's a long history of it in MMOs, it's hardly news.
BastoJ
21/10/08 @ 14:41
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Who are, "Blizzad".

Anyway, I haven't played WAR yet but hopefully I'll be getting it soon. As much as I loathe MMOs this one looks quite good.
anomagnus
21/10/08 @ 14:44
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@butler`

so, you've tapped all the end game already?

You've taken part in city sieges?

Cleared Lost Vale?

You say it dies at 40? what server where you on? Whats the server pop

I just find your absolutist comments baffling

How can you say the end game dies, when it hasnt even properly started? Unlike WoW with end game unrelated to population, WAR is utterly dependent on numbers. The truth is, that right now, the major game is in T2 or T3, where the vast majority of players are currently active

260 hours seems like a massive amount of time to invest in a game, and then suddenly though it away....

I also question you on your statements like with everyone else' or 'predictably'

again, forums are filled with people like, determined to tear a game down without giving a chance.

i quite frankly can't believe you played a character for 260 hours without knowing that the end game would be utterly dependent on a mass of people, who have not yet arrived...
Edited 1 times, most recently on 21/10/08 @ 15:47
butler`
21/10/08 @ 14:59
#38
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@anomagnus, i absolutely know the game relies on numbers, and I'm well aware that most of the joy is in T3 at the minute (having a Rank 28 Zealot alt).

Fact is it can't handle the numbers that are present in T4.

And to answer your questions:

You've taken part in city sieges?
Yes, both defending my own, and attacking my enemies'.

Cleared Lost Vale?
No, but have cleaned Bastion Stairs and working on the others.

What server where you on? Whats the server pop?
Karak-Azgal, one of the most highly populated, with one of the most competitive Order sides in Europe.
hula hoops
21/10/08 @ 15:07
#39
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Such a strong reaction for a game. I wonder if MMO is worse than religion nowadays.

Will people kill other people for the sake of their MMO?

Maybe only happens in the internet.
Benno
21/10/08 @ 15:12
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Halaa is an absolute joke. I am actually sniggering in real life at the thought of it been compared to WARs sieges
Magic Panda
21/10/08 @ 15:15
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Tigoles been playing Warhammer. You can tell :)

Probably the main reason for this very story. A WoW Forums post by Tigole.

[quote]Actually, we have been discussing new battlegrounds quite a bit lately. Wrath of the Lich King will feature Strand of the Ancients (attack/defend) as well as Wintergrasp (non-instanced, world PvP).

But past that, we are exploring ideas that would involve expanding our Battleground content in future patches and beyond. We believe we have some strong ideas for improving Battlegrounds and PvP as a whole in the game and we're definitely going to focus on improvements in the future. Now, it's very early to be talking about some of this stuff but I think it's important for the community to know that it's on our minds.

Our general thought is that we could provide more BG content over time. The BG content that we could provide could be of higher quality with a higher degree of accessibility. Overall, we'd like to have more content and variety. We also want the gameplay experience in the BGs to be better directed. We're also exploring the concept of a complimentary "competitive" bg system as well. Over time, we'd like the focus of PvP to shift back to being more BG-centric and more focused on Horde versus Alliance -- the core of our game.

We're also planning on improving some Battleground and PvP features in general. For example, we want to give you the ability to queue for Battlegrounds from anywhere in the world. We're also going to explore EXP gain through the PvP system as well as low level itemization to support that.

Please don't take this post as a promise. This won't be an overnight process. Not all of these things are set in stone and guaranteed to happen. It would take us a while to shift in this direction. But these are some of the current thoughts on the development team. I think it's important for you guys to know some of our thought process in regards to PvP.[/quote]
Edited 2 times, most recently on 21/10/08 @ 16:15
Riggers
21/10/08 @ 15:18
#42
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I have to say, I know about 20 people, both guildies and colleagues, who quit WoW for WAR, and only two have gone back. A couple are playing both, but most are sticking to WAR.

And you used to be able to level a character through battlegrounds, but Blizzard took it out when they brought in the honour system, if I recall. I know I levelled my character from about 20 - 50 through Arathi Basin. Unfortunately, when they brought in the honour system, people who previously ignored battlegrounds saw them as a way of getting cheap epics. It meant that instead of being filled with people who actually wanted to win and do well, battlegrounds got full of afking leechers, or idiots who didn't give a shit - they just wanted their marks.

On our server, there's been a few times where big PvP world raid events were set up, either as city raids, or as pitched battles on the Shimmering Flats. Every single time, there would be at least 70+ people each faction, often more…and it would crash the server. Then the forums would be filled with angry gnomes complaining how we broke Stormwind. WoW just can't handle decent world PvP at the moment.

I've said before, I love both games, but for different reasons. WoW has more polish, looks a hell of a lot nicer, and I have a great guild there. But WAR…is more fun. If it wasn't for my guild, I would have completely swapped over to WAR.
Byblos1
21/10/08 @ 15:39
#43
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Urgh these WAR vs WoW stories are seriously dull.

Anyway having played WAR and been in WOTLK beta for a few months I much prefer WoW's balance of PvE and PvP. I could see the appeal of WAR but I found it lacking on the PvE side, I thought the game world wasn't anywhere near as interesting as Azeroth and none of the classes really grabbed me like WoWs.
Lemming81
21/10/08 @ 17:27
#44
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I will never, ever understand the comments about WoW looking alot nicer than WAR. WAR looks far, far better to me.


But then I like trees to look like trees and not papercraft.
hiruu
21/10/08 @ 22:04
#45
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As WOTLK sells more on day one than life to date for WAR...
butler`
21/10/08 @ 22:52
#46
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Aspic, thanks for filling me in, it's not like I've been playing Blizzard games for oh, say, around 13 years now ;[
Lemming81
22/10/08 @ 00:32
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butler`: Yep, it was around 13 years ago that Blizzard asked GW if they could "please make a Warhammer game", got told to hop it and ripped it off anyway.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 22/10/08 @ 02:01
Nikalai88
22/10/08 @ 00:38
#48
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I see lots of praise from Blizzard of its competitors and only assine statements about Blizzard's game from them. Also I could not care less which game is more original, WoW plays different enough from games like EQ1+2 or FFXI or UO despite borrowing from them, as have all MMO's done. And just to add to the whole "Blizzard ripped of GamesWorkshop" thing all I see are two words with different lore and different art. GW didn't invent goblins, bulky shoulder pads, cartoon fantasy, orcs, elves, or chaos demons. I also never thought that WarCraft 3 and WoW resembeled warhammer minatures until Mythic decided to convert them to 3d and claim that it was their only source of inspiration.

For the record I had fun with WAR, and would have liked to reach the end game. On my server Bela'kor with med/med population world RvR was rare (T1-T2) and it was incredibly hard to find a group for PQ. I still would have kept my sub had the game not started to crash after the patch and the customer support found a better solution than to uninstall Lexmark.
Lemming81
22/10/08 @ 01:03
#49
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@Nikalai88: "I see lots of praise from Blizzard of its competitors and only assine statements about Blizzard's game from them"

Then you have a very selective memory/web browsing ability.

If you follow the road back, it was interviews by two Blizzard Execs a couple of days ago that started this crap-flinging contest.
Edited 2 times, most recently on 22/10/08 @ 02:04
Vandrius
22/10/08 @ 01:56
#50
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Just for reference... WoW = Fail. WAR = Win.

Thank you.

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