Mythic "flattered" by WOW's PVP changes

By James Lee Published 21 October, 2008

Jacobs reckons it's a reaction to WAR.

Blizzad's move to beef up open-world player-versus-player combat in World of Warcraft is "absolutely a reaction to Warhammer," according to Mythic boss Mark Jacobs.

Speaking to GamesIndustry.biz, Jacobs talked about the latest PVP features to be included in the World of Warcraft expansion, Wrath of the Lich King, many of which, he claims, are based on Warhammer Online.

These include a new zone dedicated to open-world PVP called Lake Wintergrasp. Warhammer Online specialises in such zones. It also allows players to level their characters through PVP combat, something Blizzard is considering implementing.

"Oh absolutely," responded Jacobs, when asked if this was a move by Blizzard to position World of Warcraft against Warhammer Online. "I think imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

"You have a game that's been out for four years, they've never put in world PVP like ours, they've never been able to level through PVP like in ours. I think it's absolutely a reaction to Warhammer," Jacobs said. "It wasn't like all of a sudden the idea of open-world PVP or levelling through PVP came into their heads and they went 'nobody's ever done this before'."

"I don't think it was accidental that they're talking about doing it when Warhammer comes out. Four years and suddenly, miraculously, at the same time Warhammer comes out that's when they start talking about these things... I think it was Jeff Kaplan who said they like to look at other games and learn from them - well, I'm flattered."

It's worth noting that WOW has had organised open-world PVP features for some time - since before first expansion The Burning Crusade, in fact. But they have never been located in dedicated areas, and have traditionally struggled to attract much interest from players.

Jacobs went on to discuss the uncertainty involved in predicting how many of the currently registered users will be converted into paying subscribers, following the end of the 30-day free trial that comes packaged with the boxed product.

"If we're successful, we'll have a high conversion rate and we'll keep the vast majority of our subs," he explained, adding: "No one has been billed yet, so we won't know this really for at least several months, in terms of how well we're doing, unless we start off horribly."

"Everything we've done internally, in terms of looking at internal polls, people posting on forums, emails from people, all we've seen so far is that we're well on track."

For more, check out Mark Jacobs' full interview with GamesIndustry.biz.

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Comments (52) Latest comment 3 years ago

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  • Dizzy #1 3 years ago

    Halaa? ROFL :)

    You will be lucky if there is one battle a day.

    WoW cannot add open world PvP, it just isn't structured around it. Watch it fail epically in WotLK.

  • spimmy #2 3 years ago

    there was also the towers in epl and also the sand in silithus

  • ZuluHero #3 3 years ago

    HAHA-laa!

    Nagrand is a PvE zone with a hub in the middle that nobody ever bothers with. And i'm on a PvP server.

    If WAR makes blizzard create a better World-PvP game then i'm all for it.

  • butler` #4 3 years ago

    "I think imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

    In that case you sure flattered Blizzard, Mr Jacobs.

  • Dizzy #5 3 years ago

    >there was also the towers in epl and also the sand in silithus

    All a waste of time.

    Seriously.. WoW has lost all sense of "war" (no pun intended). I bump into the "evil" horde guys all the time and usually they just /wave or /dance at me. The original had some sense of conflict, TBC became a total joke and WotLK will be very similar (again with a main shared central hub). If there is no hate between player groups, you will never have good PvP.

  • Monkey_Puncher #6 3 years ago

    I'm no WOW fan, but I thought they were talking about dedicated areas of the map for PVP in Lich King over a year ago?

  • Oldern #7 3 years ago

    "Do not push it" is the right phrase for this.
    It is not like there were zero world-pvp content before.

  • Rizo #8 3 years ago

    This guy should really STFU!!

    WAR IS EPIC FAIL.

    Most of the guys I know are back in WOW.

    Wait for server merge in the next 6 months!

  • berelain #9 3 years ago

    Mythic "absolutely up their own arses" despite WAR not being the all-singing, all-dancing wonder MMO they seem to think it is.

  • Dizzy #10 3 years ago

    >Most of the guys I know are back in WOW.

    Strange.. most of the guys I know have left WoW for WAR.

    You know too many carebears.
    Edited by 1 at 21/10/08 @ 13:24

  • ZuluHero #11 3 years ago

    Most of the guys I know are back in WOW.

    I'm with Dizzy on this one, we lost a serious number of guildies when WAR was launched. Only a couple have returned for the 3.0 patch, but even some of them have subsequently gone back to WAR again. And the patch has been out for less than a week :(

  • dr_faulk #12 3 years ago

    "I think imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

    Way to quote Nintendo.

  • Orange #13 3 years ago

    I think both WAR and WoW have lost out. WoW lost players to other games and hasn't had most of them back. WAR started off brightly but seems to have lost a lot of people even before subbing time, let alone after.

  • Kami #14 3 years ago

    As said, though it's not actively persued there has been open-world PvP in World of Warcraft for a very long time. It's not done brilliantly, admittedly, usually sparks up rivalry for a few months and then cools off. But it's been there. Players can't deny that Blizzard have tried to incorporate PvP activities, and once upon a time PvP servers delivered a lot of fun on the rivalry front.

    WAR has plenty of it's own problems to worry about. A few days ago, the people behind WAR seemed very mature and were happy to share the market. Clearly, this didn't go down well with their thinktank or execs or whatever and they demanded they come out a few days later and try to diss WoW.

    Which is a shame, because the games offer different experiences. WoW may have been trying for ages, but WAR seems to do it rather well. But one game is built around it and the other is built around a largely PvE game, with epic boss battles.

    Some people should just keep their mouths shut when they're on a roll...

  • ZuluHero #15 3 years ago

    "...but seems to have lost a lot of people even before subbing time, let alone after."

    There are still long queues for both. And re-subbing time for WAR has been and gone. The US are going mental over WAR atm.

  • LittleVoice #16 3 years ago

    Post deleted at 18:03:32 01-02-2012

  • Eraysor #17 3 years ago

    I agree with him in that WoW is probably reacting to WAR's PvP.

    I'm not going to carry on playing when my free sub runs out mainly because there are simply too many amazing games appearing over the next couple of weeks :S

  • Royal Fool #18 3 years ago

    dr_faulk: Nintendo didn't coin that phrase. I hope you're being intentionally stupid here.

  • Fodder #19 3 years ago

    "This guy should really STFU!!"

    That's probably quite a rude thing to do if you're being interviewed, to be fair.

  • Gaol #20 3 years ago

    This isn't new, Blizzard have never been shy of taking good ideas from elsewhere; and then implementing them better. It's all about spit and polish.

  • Lemming81 #21 3 years ago

    @Gaol: Except that in this case, Blizzard are trying to shoe-horn in world PvP/leveling as a knee-jerk reaction to WAR, when it's a game that was designed for primarily PvE. Just look at the mess the PvP-centric changes have made to the game already.

    WAR, on the other hand is designed for PvP AND PvE (favouring the former, obviously). So ad-hoc additions wouldn't really hurt it. Not that they ever need to as Mythic/GW are pretty good at coming up with things by themselves...
    Edited by 1 at 21/10/08 @ 14:43

  • Lemming81 #22 3 years ago

    "WAR has plenty of it's own problems to worry about. A few days ago, the people behind WAR seemed very mature and were happy to share the market. Clearly, this didn't go down well with their thinktank or execs or whatever and they demanded they come out a few days later and try to diss WoW.

    Actually, if you look back at the history of all this, Jacobs basically said he'd had enough when seeing WoW execs bashing WAR in interviews when they had no reason to feel threatened with their sub numbers. He's just trying to redress the balance.

  • Orange #23 3 years ago

    To be fair to Jacobs one of the WoW devs made a post about a week or so ago listing all of WARs unique features and saying Blizzard were either going to implement them or were looking into it. That's pretty cheeky and shameless. Blizzard do love feeding off other people's innovation and making money out of it.
    Edited by 1 at 21/10/08 @ 14:50

  • iokthemonkey #24 3 years ago

    Don' t forget that a number of Lich King's "new features" have been in LOTRO online for some time, too...

  • Pike #25 3 years ago

    A lot of rivalry nonsense spouted by WoW, and WAR players alike. It is obvious that Blizzard are reacting to competition by trying to implement popular features of their rivals, just as Mythic are trying to implement WoW's popular concepts. That is what competition brings. In the end both WoW and WAR players will benefit.

    This Mythic persons comment seemed straightforward and uncontroversial to me, who has never even considered leaving WoW for WAR.

  • MightyMouse #26 3 years ago

    WoW definitely likes to utilise good ideas that other people have had, no doubt about it. At the same time it's frequently hard to pin down exactly which ideas were taken from where, since things like the pvp zones have been known about for at least a year and trying to integrate more pvp into pve zones has been attempted since pre-TBC, as you point out. Getting xp in bg's is probably more knee-jerk since for a long time blizzard said they didn't want to do that.

    All in all Jacobs should be flattered, but he should also realise that this doesn't necessarily mean he made the better game.

  • Iora #27 3 years ago

    @butler & Mogs

    You do realise Blizzard raped Games Workshop for all they were worth right? Where do you think Starcraft and Warcraft came from? Warhammer my dear postee.

    Known fact that Blizzard DO NOT create unique ideas, they DO NOT take risks like that. The take an existing idea an established formula and they spit shine it till it sparkles. They have alot of talented people to make it shine but they DO NOT have an original idea in there heads.

    Call there games and work strategy, good business sense/cowardice/complacency/Intelligence but dont call it original.

    jesus.

    Edited by 1 at 21/10/08 @ 15:07

  • anomagnus #28 3 years ago

    HALAA - OPEN RVR

    BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

    BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

    oh wait, wait...

    BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

    I'll tell you what Halaa is

    FUCKING GASH

    As for Rizo, didnt you post some where about server merges after a month?

    as for orange, where, oh where do people like you get these magic figures? You say war has a lost a lot of subbers? where is this news posted? where are the figures or news releases? or is it forum data? always reliable

    total time played in WAR so far = 200 plus hours

    can anyone thats currently bitching about the game say the same?

    or did you fanny out after the first level, because, boo hoo, it was so hard, waa waa

    this isnt fucking WoW, you dont get some starting zone killing bloody giant chickens to ease you in, and a bloody nicey, nice world where every one is a bloody great guy

    you better be pvping after 2 fucking levels, and if you dont enjoy it, sling your hook, its not called WARhammer for nothing

    sunday alone, was an apex of online gaming for me, in a core group of about 40 people, fighting against 50 or 60 destruction across an entire zone, not some bullshit relay race like AV

    War has its issues, christ, its a month old, but i'm fascinated by the fortune tellers like Rizo, who have their parents on hand with a 12 foot map to help them tell their arse from their face, able to predict the future.

    tell you what rizo, since you're telling the future and all, why dont you tell me the lottery numbers for next week

    Edited by 1 at 21/10/08 @ 15:15

  • Kremlik Verified Co-Founder, Crash To Desktop #29 3 years ago

    Same reasoning as before: A lot of this is in the short term - yea Blizzard will have new 'features' to hook players back in but only the real die hards will stay with WoW once WotLK has been 'completed'. Remember when we found out that half of Blizzard's 'millions' of WoW players were actally from the east (before anyone says it I'm NOT say their all farmers) the Westen market is still pritty much game for all.

    Plus think about it all those 'leaving WAR' are they actally ALL going back to WoW? of course not actally many i've hear from are former DAoC players, plus WoW dispite Blizzard's boasting isn't the only other MMO out there worth going to and yet again whos to say players wont come back to WAR when changes do happen? They've done it with WoW, are they not 'allowed' to do the same with other games?

    WAR may not be 'bigger then WoW' but like LOTRO and EVE it's got quallity - unlike a lot of MMOs we've seen come and die out - all three including WoW wont be leaving us any time soon. Thats a good thing really as Blizzard have proven all it'll do is improve the quality of all games as they'll just bounce off each other :)

  • butler` #30 3 years ago

    260 hours to be precise anomagnus, and i'm back on wow with everyone else :p

    it dies at 40, predictably.

  • Emth #31 3 years ago

    I agree with what he said, things like achievements seem to come out of the blue (I was a WoW player for almost 4 years) surely in reaction to the ToK in WAR, not to mention easily accessible and varied titles.

    The copying goes both ways and there's a long history of it in MMOs, it's hardly news.

  • BastoJ #32 3 years ago

    Who are, "Blizzad".

    Anyway, I haven't played WAR yet but hopefully I'll be getting it soon. As much as I loathe MMOs this one looks quite good.

  • anomagnus #33 3 years ago

    @butler`

    so, you've tapped all the end game already?

    You've taken part in city sieges?

    Cleared Lost Vale?

    You say it dies at 40? what server where you on? Whats the server pop

    I just find your absolutist comments baffling

    How can you say the end game dies, when it hasnt even properly started? Unlike WoW with end game unrelated to population, WAR is utterly dependent on numbers. The truth is, that right now, the major game is in T2 or T3, where the vast majority of players are currently active

    260 hours seems like a massive amount of time to invest in a game, and then suddenly though it away....

    I also question you on your statements like with everyone else' or 'predictably'

    again, forums are filled with people like, determined to tear a game down without giving a chance.

    i quite frankly can't believe you played a character for 260 hours without knowing that the end game would be utterly dependent on a mass of people, who have not yet arrived...
    Edited by 1 at 21/10/08 @ 15:47

  • butler` #34 3 years ago

    @anomagnus, i absolutely know the game relies on numbers, and I'm well aware that most of the joy is in T3 at the minute (having a Rank 28 Zealot alt).

    Fact is it can't handle the numbers that are present in T4.

    And to answer your questions:

    You've taken part in city sieges?
    Yes, both defending my own, and attacking my enemies'.

    Cleared Lost Vale?
    No, but have cleaned Bastion Stairs and working on the others.

    What server where you on? Whats the server pop?
    Karak-Azgal, one of the most highly populated, with one of the most competitive Order sides in Europe.

  • hula hoops #35 3 years ago

    Such a strong reaction for a game. I wonder if MMO is worse than religion nowadays.

    Will people kill other people for the sake of their MMO?

    Maybe only happens in the internet.

  • Benno #36 3 years ago

    Halaa is an absolute joke. I am actually sniggering in real life at the thought of it been compared to WARs sieges

  • magicpanda #37 3 years ago

    Tigoles been playing Warhammer. You can tell :)

    Probably the main reason for this very story. A WoW Forums post by Tigole.
    Actually, we have been discussing new battlegrounds quite a bit lately. Wrath of the Lich King will feature Strand of the Ancients (attack/defend) as well as Wintergrasp (non-instanced, world PvP).

    But past that, we are exploring ideas that would involve expanding our Battleground content in future patches and beyond. We believe we have some strong ideas for improving Battlegrounds and PvP as a whole in the game and we're definitely going to focus on improvements in the future. Now, it's very early to be talking about some of this stuff but I think it's important for the community to know that it's on our minds.

    Our general thought is that we could provide more BG content over time. The BG content that we could provide could be of higher quality with a higher degree of accessibility. Overall, we'd like to have more content and variety. We also want the gameplay experience in the BGs to be better directed. We're also exploring the concept of a complimentary "competitive" bg system as well. Over time, we'd like the focus of PvP to shift back to being more BG-centric and more focused on Horde versus Alliance -- the core of our game.

    We're also planning on improving some Battleground and PvP features in general. For example, we want to give you the ability to queue for Battlegrounds from anywhere in the world. We're also going to explore EXP gain through the PvP system as well as low level itemization to support that.

    Please don't take this post as a promise. This won't be an overnight process. Not all of these things are set in stone and guaranteed to happen. It would take us a while to shift in this direction. But these are some of the current thoughts on the development team. I think it's important for you guys to know some of our thought process in regards to PvP.
    Edited by 2 at 21/10/08 @ 16:15

  • Riggers #38 3 years ago

    I have to say, I know about 20 people, both guildies and colleagues, who quit WoW for WAR, and only two have gone back. A couple are playing both, but most are sticking to WAR.

    And you used to be able to level a character through battlegrounds, but Blizzard took it out when they brought in the honour system, if I recall. I know I levelled my character from about 20 - 50 through Arathi Basin. Unfortunately, when they brought in the honour system, people who previously ignored battlegrounds saw them as a way of getting cheap epics. It meant that instead of being filled with people who actually wanted to win and do well, battlegrounds got full of afking leechers, or idiots who didn't give a shit - they just wanted their marks.

    On our server, there's been a few times where big PvP world raid events were set up, either as city raids, or as pitched battles on the Shimmering Flats. Every single time, there would be at least 70+ people each faction, often more…and it would crash the server. Then the forums would be filled with angry gnomes complaining how we broke Stormwind. WoW just can't handle decent world PvP at the moment.

    I've said before, I love both games, but for different reasons. WoW has more polish, looks a hell of a lot nicer, and I have a great guild there. But WAR…is more fun. If it wasn't for my guild, I would have completely swapped over to WAR.

  • Byblos1 #39 3 years ago

    Urgh these WAR vs WoW stories are seriously dull.

    Anyway having played WAR and been in WOTLK beta for a few months I much prefer WoW's balance of PvE and PvP. I could see the appeal of WAR but I found it lacking on the PvE side, I thought the game world wasn't anywhere near as interesting as Azeroth and none of the classes really grabbed me like WoWs.

  • Lemming81 #40 3 years ago

    I will never, ever understand the comments about WoW looking alot nicer than WAR. WAR looks far, far better to me.


    But then I like trees to look like trees and not papercraft.

  • hiruu #41 3 years ago

    As WOTLK sells more on day one than life to date for WAR...

  • butler` #42 3 years ago

    Aspic, thanks for filling me in, it's not like I've been playing Blizzard games for oh, say, around 13 years now ;[

  • Lemming81 #43 3 years ago

    butler`: Yep, it was around 13 years ago that Blizzard asked GW if they could "please make a Warhammer game", got told to hop it and ripped it off anyway.
    Edited by 1 at 22/10/08 @ 02:01

  • Nikalai88 #44 3 years ago

    I see lots of praise from Blizzard of its competitors and only assine statements about Blizzard's game from them. Also I could not care less which game is more original, WoW plays different enough from games like EQ1+2 or FFXI or UO despite borrowing from them, as have all MMO's done. And just to add to the whole "Blizzard ripped of GamesWorkshop" thing all I see are two words with different lore and different art. GW didn't invent goblins, bulky shoulder pads, cartoon fantasy, orcs, elves, or chaos demons. I also never thought that WarCraft 3 and WoW resembeled warhammer minatures until Mythic decided to convert them to 3d and claim that it was their only source of inspiration.

    For the record I had fun with WAR, and would have liked to reach the end game. On my server Bela'kor with med/med population world RvR was rare (T1-T2) and it was incredibly hard to find a group for PQ. I still would have kept my sub had the game not started to crash after the patch and the customer support found a better solution than to uninstall Lexmark.

  • Lemming81 #45 3 years ago

    @Nikalai88: "I see lots of praise from Blizzard of its competitors and only assine statements about Blizzard's game from them"

    Then you have a very selective memory/web browsing ability.

    If you follow the road back, it was interviews by two Blizzard Execs a couple of days ago that started this crap-flinging contest.
    Edited by 2 at 22/10/08 @ 02:04

  • Vandrius #46 3 years ago

    Just for reference... WoW = Fail. WAR = Win.

    Thank you.

  • Nikalai88 #47 3 years ago

    Lemming81 provide link or fail. The only interview I remember is when asked about how new MMO releases affect their numbers Blizzard stated that half the players that left for WAR came back. They also stated a bunch of positive things abotu WAR too.

    [link url=http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=261184
    ]http://ww w.eurogamer.net/article.php?art...[/link]

    "We've certainly had some of that happen, which is the same thing we experienced with Age of Conan, and each time an MMO has come out we've seen some amount of reduction of use," he said in an exclusive interview published today.

    "The good news is that we've seen a significant number of people, well over half, that cited Warhammer as their reason for leaving - they've already returned."

    "It surprises me because Mythic is a very good company and it doesn't surprise me at the same time because it's really hard, what they're trying to do and what we've done," commented Sams.

    "We respect those guys over there a lot and certainly wish them well to succeed but having registration troubles, having server troubles, these are things that come with the territory when you're talking about managing a game as big as World of Warcraft or Warhammer or anything like that. So, it's not a surprise because it is really difficult."

    "I think Warhammer is best positioned to succeed out of the various products that have come out thus far since World of Warcraft has come out," he offered.

    "It seems to be a good game, certainly a great company, Mythic and Mark [Jacobs] over there and his team, they're very, very talented.

    "But I think without EA they would have struggled as well, because EA fortunately for them has a lot of money and so they were able to put forward a lot of marketing dollars and were able to support the huge infrastructure that they require for these kinds of games," added Sams.

    The full interview with Paul Sams, where he discusses the challenge of MMO start-ups, Blizzard products on consoles and more, can be read on GamesIndustry.biz.



    Edited by 1 at 22/10/08 @ 03:06

  • ZuluHero #48 3 years ago

    "The good news is that we've seen a significant number of people, well over half, that cited Warhammer as their reason for leaving - they've already returned."

    I did! I did!

    But im still subbed to both. I'm a dirty dirty whore. ;)

    Normally when i leave i normally cite "lack of player housing" - but that's yet to materialise :(

    WAR was different though ;)

  • Lemming81 #49 3 years ago

    Nikalai88, that's the one and there is a later interview with Kaplin as well. Both are heavily threaded with smack talk WAR's way.

    In the one you posted, it#s the implication that half of WAR's subscriber base moved back to WoW, despite the fact there is no proof. He's also suggesting that MYthic had a hard time getting WAR started on launch -they didn't. He's spinning.

    If you can't see that, you are blind.

    If you want to really look into it, checkout the Warhammer Vault forums and Look back at Mark Jacobs' posts on the matter.

    But then, I don't think you want to be proven wrong, so...nevermind.

  • dingo75 #50 3 years ago

    @Lemming81:

    butler`: Yep, it was around 13 years ago that Blizzard asked GW if they could "please make a Warhammer game", got told to hop it and ripped it off anyway.

    Seems it was a pretty stupid response by GW...

  • Iora #51 3 years ago

    It was a stupid response... But GW were scared that people would stop buying their minatures in order to play the game. Since then though i think theyve realised that Games (Dawn of War) can help push there minature sales.

    You can hardly blame GW for not having the foresight. But Blizzard shouldn't be applauded for all there 'genius' ideas either.

  • Lemming81 #52 3 years ago

    I've missed something - why was it a stupid response by GW? You wouldn't have WAR and WoW if that were the case.