MS warns against second-hand 360s News

Why buy a second hand one, 360s are so cheap these days..

MS man in "Don't buy 2nd hand buy new!" shocker.

It's fair enough if it is actually a modified 360 though, but you should know what you are buying, especially 2nd hand.

With the 3 year warranty, unless you are paying £20-30 for it, you'd have to be mad to buy 2nd hand anyway, I was thinking of selling mine the other day but thought "it's 5 years old I would sell it and it would likely RROD a day later!" I'm just waiting for the moment she goes myself! :)

killing off the second-hand trade is the new battle-front, clearly.

it's no longer about pirated games, which the industry secretly knows is largely irrelevant - they know they don't lose much money on pirated games, because most of those pirates would never have paid money for their products anyway.

but people buying second-hand stuff *is* about money, and it's about money that the industry doesn't see. it's by far the bigger threat, and they're clearly taking it seriously now.

machines die unexpectedly, warranty non-transferable, machine unable to connect to network - don't buy 2nd-hand machines.

games only available in downloadable format, or act as a client to a subscription-only online service - can't buy 2nd hand games.

job done.

You gotta love MS always looking out for its customers, they did'nt have to say this, they are looking out for you and me.

I'd say the vast majority of people who buy used games wouldn't touch a used console with a bargepole unless it came from someone they knew. Frankly you'd have to be mental to buy a used console these days with all the potential issues you could have with it.

MS don't need to worry too much; I don't think anyone in their right mind would buy a 360 second hand... almost guarenteed to be a refurbed RRoD return.

/facepalm

but people buying second-hand stuff *is* about money, and it's about money that the industry doesn't see. it's by far the bigger threat, and they're clearly taking it seriously now.

Exactly, this what I have been saying for bloody ages. Shops selling second hand games is a far bigger issue to developers than piracy, but the practice isn't ilegal.

However the profits the likes of GAME and HMV make are huge and why I rarely trade or buy second hand games in these stores.

It does make you wonder what costs Microsoft more, piracy or the second hand market... I'm guessing the latter. Still, no worries if you can brick consoles remotely, cracks both nuts with one hammer.

You can bring it back to the shop if that's the case.

What a load of bullshit, I work for a rather large games company in the uk, who thrive off second hand market.

I can safely speak on the companies behalf and say should someone buy a second hand console that is banned from live, we'd happily swap the machine over.

This nonsense really ruffles my feathers, on one hand they want us to be the main outlet and sell their products with huge praise, but at the same time they dong want us making our own profits thru second hand.

Besides I sware being banned by MS is a myth, I've friends on my gamertag who have a list of games played prior to the release as long as the 0's on MS profit income, have they been banned (yes they have been report plenty of times) nope and no!

This kinda report tells ne nothing other than just join the piracy club

isn't it also illegal to sell a product that you know is broken?

"It does make you wonder what costs Microsoft more, piracy or the second hand market..."

Second hand, by about a thousand times.

Piracy is a lot more prevalent on the handhelds though - something that isn't a worry for MS.

Actually the Warranty is transferable if the prior user, didn't register the xbox for repair already, (being as my xbox was second-hand from Ebay, and was covered when it got RROD last year on Crimbo Eve, It was picked up on the Sat 27th Dec, and returned Jan 3rd. Annoyingly this meant the Lego Star wars I had bought for my son for crimbo was not played until after but he had enough toys to be getting on with anyway, sadly I didn't :-(

So that's a little misleading. But if you are going to buy from Ebay then you should be savvy enough to realise that any CONSOLE's that have been repaired (by MS) will no longer be covered by MS when the console is sold on to you.

There is nothing wrong with buying second hand on Ebay ( I got a good bargain at the time £200 + 3 games + 2 pads + a 'Game 3 year Warranty' - which turned out to be utter crud hence the sending of to MS, the console was 5 months old and after a few questions the reason for being sold was due to a divorce) but as I said you have to be a bit savvy and understand that second-hand products are not going to be entitled to the same benefits as buying new from a recognised retailer

you could also argue that the likes of game and hmv (games section) are only viable by including a 2nd hand section. if that was taken away and the business model no longer profitable and the only place on the highstreet to buy games is tesco then developers would hurt far more as only top 20 games would be stocked.

so i dont really buy that 2nd hand hurts more than piracy, especially when the money made from 2nd hand almost always goes back into the industry by buying a new game, wheras piracy it just goes to buy crack.

@Nath_Monn

You say you work for a games company, but then the rest of your post suggests you work in retail - which is it?

I do work for a games company - one that, you know, actually makes games - and it really pisses me off when I come in to buy a game, with my forty notes in hand and one of your lot offers me a second hand one for a fiver less, I don't accept, because naturally I want to support the games industry which pays my mortgage, but I'm sure many, many people do; after all it gives the same playing experience and you save a fiver, why wouldn't average Joe consumer buy the second hand one? How are developers and publishers supposed to shift their product when we've got people like you flogging your own wares in front of ours? You and all your pre-owned selling buddies are digging your own graves though, the insistence on pushing pre-owned is only going to speed up the industry in going to an all digital distribution model.

And then where will you be? The dole queue. So by all means push the pre-owned, because in the not-so-long term you're gonna become surplus to requirements.

I don't speak to that many consumers who like the idea of an all digital future, but the main driver towards that is the retailer's insistence on pushing second hand products over new ones.

Donnie I agree with you for once! :)

This year I bought a DC and PS2 2nd hand without a 2nd thought. I wouldn't dream of a 2nd 360 or PS3 (no matter how much I desperately want BC!). Still harware was a problem through all the CD consoles, my old upside down PS1 would confirm that if it was still here!

This gen I'd still go for a Wii 2nd hand though, they are pretty solid machines. Not much use you see....

/ gets coat

you could also argue that the likes of game and hmv (games section) are only viable by including a 2nd hand section

The latest issue of EDGE, 208 December 2009, states "The UK's biggest specialist, Game Group, which includes GameStation, has recently started to report its share of revenue from pre-owned game sales. In the six months to July 31, Game saw its pre-owned games sales rise 26 per cent to £177 million, which represented 26 percent of the company's business -- a significant pot of revenue that content owners and the platform holders see zero direct revenue from in the UK."

Firstly, 26 percent of Game's revenue is a huge proportion of the firm's profits as the margins on pre-owned games are massive compared to selling new titles. Secondly, although other firms do not benefit directly from sales of pre-owned they do indirectly, as many customers trade in games to buy new ones.

But how many of those game they are trading in were pre-owned to start off with?

Well I work in the games industry as well.
I have no problem with folks buying 2nd hand games as I do it myself!

I find the idea that the industry can complain about this utterly ludicrous.
I've never seen any other industry complaining about 2nd hand products.
Being able to buy and sell what I own is fundamental part of the capitalist world we happen to live in.
If the games industry can't cope with this, then it's doing something wrong - which TBH honest it probably is...

“But how many of those game they are trading in were pre-owned to start off with?”
I remember reading an article (which I now can’t find) about a manager at a game shop who put a little mark on the disk of a pre-owned copy of Doom 3 on original Xbox so that he could count how many times it was traded in. It came back through his shop EIGHT times. EIGHT!

Obviously this is a tiny sample size, but it’s fair to assume that people who buy pre-owned games are also likely to trade in, and so games end up in this cycle where the shop is making buckets of cash and the developer is seeing nothing.

To clarify on an earlier point, I (and I’m sure many others in the industry) don’t care about people selling games second hand on ebay or to their mates or whatever, this is perfectly reasonable if people want to do that and happens to every industry. It’s about those frequent times in GAME when people get to the checkout with a new copy of a game in their hand about to pay full price and the sales person pushes the pre-owned one. All the effort and marketing money that’s gone into getting that person to the checkout with the game and the checkout boy goes and makes it all for nought.

shadders - my apologies, but you're being more than a little disingenuous.

i agree with you, strongly and forcefully, that the ability of a consumer to sell on something that they've paid for, and therefore own (not the intellectual property, but they do own the physical disk, manual and plastic case), is absolute. this is also true of books, tables (ikea designers don't complain about people stealing their work when they sell a second-hand table), cars and every other physical object you care to mention.

that said, you cannot draw a distinction between one kind of 2nd hand market (ebay etc) and another (retail stores). if your marketing money and effort has gone to waste, it's because somehow you've either got an inferior product (otherwise why are they resold multiple times), or you've done your sums wrong and it's now more profitable for retail outlets to buy and sell 2nd hand games than buy them direct from you.

either way, i feel it's the fault of the industry. but that is merely my opinion, and i'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

i cant be the only one who has never been offerd a tiny discount on a 2nd hand game of the same when going up with a shiney shiney new one?

They ban the box from Live, then? Not the user?
So out of interest, do you suffer this same fate if you're banned for, say, just being a dick? Therefore denying you the ability to sell on the hardware you bought and, therefore, own?

I dont give two scrotes about the industry. The Industry wants to charge me 50 quid for a game, Gamestation wants to charge me 25.

Gamestation wins.

Justsomeone

Though I follow your point, I think it’s important to note that games and other digital media should not be compared to something more tenable that can be sold second hand, a used Ikea table is quantifiably not as good as a brand new one, you pay less and you get one that will appear used, a game (or DVD or CD) offers the exact same user experience whether new or second hand, the game that the consumer plays is identical, as such it’s very difficult to encourage a consumer to part with the additional cash and get the new one when the second hand one offers the same thing.

Gears of War 2 did the interesting thing of having a download code in the box to get multi-player maps that only someone buying the game new would get access to, FIFA10 does a similar thing, short of activation keys I think this is the only thing publishers can really do.

I mention DVDs and CDs above so I’ll pre-empt your next question. There’s a very obvious reason as to why they aren’t effected as badly as games are, a new DVD costs £10, so the maximum a shop can sell the second hand one for is £9, as such they realistically need to be buying it in at about £5 and then they run the very real risk of not selling it before the new one drops in price (something that happens a lot faster with movies than games and also something that is not controlled by the people who make the films). And that’s without even going into their alternate avenues of income.

I appreciate that there’s not really anything that can be done about this, it’s not fair, but it’s also legal, I’d be a lot happier if they just stopped doing the point of sale thing where they try and stop you from buying the new game, if you walk up to the counter with a pre-owned game then fair enough, it’s when they actively try and convert a new sale into a pre-owned sale that really boils my blood. GAME actually have a little pop-up on their till screens when someone scans a new game telling them how much cheaper the pre-owned version is so they can offer it instead. How can I, a game developer, compete with that?!

Hmm

I think it’s one of those things that most people will accept once it’s here, music did it, movies are doing it and games will do it soon. Digital distribution is just a better model all round, I think the prices will have to come down though, I wouldn’t like the idea of paying £40-45 for a download version of a game. I think £25-30 would be the magic number and would still see developers and publishers making a lot more per game than they do now – a LOT more. It’s a shame, I like boxes, I like the smell of a new manual and the freebies in a special edition, but I can totally see the next round of consoles coming without a disc drive.

I didn't -1 you btw.

I think if the consoles went over to a purely digital distribution model, then they would have to lower the price of games. If I was forced to buy games at the £40-45 price point, it would just mean I'd end up buying a lot fewer games, which wouldn't benefit anyone.

the engineering of consent

look that shit up, kiddos.

Music and movies might be available through digital distribution, but that hasn't meant that they have disappeared from the high street or from online sellers.

For games to become available only through DD would take a truly massive shift in the market forces that determine and control games sales. And I have serious doubts that DD will make games any cheaper.

The argument about new vs used is one that will never see a winner.
Facts are :
If someone wants a new game. They will buy a new game. simple.
If they want to buy a 2 year old game at £39.99 and we offer it used for £14.99 for example, how many people are going to buy the brand new one??
Gamestation, Game etc. have offers on trading in games for new releases which increases the sales for the publishers/devs anyway!

If consoles go to a Digital distribution model only I won't be buying into that particular line of console. I would buy the competitors console if that was an option or just go back to only using my PC for gaming.

As i don't sell on my games (I always like to have the option to go back to a game), My main concern with digital only content is you fully at the mercy of the company controlling the service. If for example you have bought content for Xbox live it is tied to your Live account, if microsoft then ban your account for being a dick online ( not that I condone or like it when peopleare like this) and your console RRODs you have then had your access to these titles removed. Where as a physical copy of a game can be played with multiple accounts.

But to be honest I don't think they will be going digital only next gen, the worlds current broadband infrastucture won't be good enough for enough people to make it cost effective.

Just my two pence.

If some recent posts are to be believed they ban people who have been using 3rd party external drives.Anyone can confirm this?