Using MW2 exploit will get Live suspension

By Oli Welsh Published 3 December, 2009

24-hour bans for using the Javelin glitch.

Xbox Live's Stephen Toulouse has mentioned that anyone caught exploiting Modern Warfare 2's Javelin glitch in multiplayer will get suspended from Live.

"While IW works on getting the MW2 glitch fixed, people we catch using it will receive suspensions from Live. Play fair everyone," he told the Twittersphere (thanks Kotaku).

"For those asking, cheating suspensions are usually 24 hours for first offence," he added later. "But egregious cheating can be 2 weeks!... Using any bug or glitch to gain advantage in a game is expressly against our Terms of Use and Code of Conduct."

The Javelin glitch involves equipping a rocket launcher a certain way and sprinting, which effectively turns the user into a suicide bomber. As soon as you're killed, you'll explode, taking out everyone in the vicinity. It works on the PS3 and 360 too.

Picture of Oli.

About Oli Welsh

Oli is Eurogamer's acting deputy editor and reviews editor and likes to take things one word at a time. He is among the best dressed people in South London.

Read more articles from Oli by visiting the Oli Welsh archive page.

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Comments (111) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • justsomeone #1 2 years ago

    personally, i think every gamer avatar should simply be marked for life - dorian gray style - with some visible marks exposing them as a cheater. that way the shame of your idiocy will never leave you, and others can decide if they want to play with you or not.

  • Paperghost #2 2 years ago

    I think I'd be more impressed if they did something about the map glitches, like the one where someone can sit inside the rock on Afghan. I've seen around 60+ individual glitch spots / cheats on MW2 so far. Don't remember how many the original had but I don't remember it being that many...

    / edit - and then there's the piles of non map specific cheats, such as infinite airdrops - doh - gun glitches, instant cold blooded pro, the run twice as fast cheat and a bunch of other stuff. Bit of a mess...
    Edited by 1 at 03/12/09 @ 09:10

  • GamerG #3 2 years ago

    Doesn't sound like a glitch to me after all you die in the process!

  • Freek #4 2 years ago

    I don't like exploits either, it ruins the game. But going on around banning people, even for only 24 hours, seems a bitt much.

    If you don't want this sort of thing to happen: make sure the game ships bug free.

  • miiiguel #5 2 years ago

    If you don't want this sort of thing to happen: make sure the game ships bug free.

    Don't agree with this, is like saying police shouldn't do anything about thiefs if I don't feel like buying an alarm for my car. Cheaters are cheaters and they must take the consequences for their acts.

    Justsomeone«'s idea seems good. Cheaters should play with eachother. Is like dope use in sports, I think they should make a Druggy-Olypimcs and those dudes could take whatever they want and leave the regular competition alone.
    Edited by 1 at 03/12/09 @ 09:22

  • Paperghost #6 2 years ago

    "I don't like exploits either, it ruins the game. But going on around banning people, even for only 24 hours, seems a bitt much."

    No game ships bug free. And if you don't ban them, before long half the people on your server are doing it. Day long ban? Too little, too late - cheat and glitch, and it's permanent ban time. Ban em all.
    Edited by 1 at 03/12/09 @ 09:24

  • Brainz #7 2 years ago

    as much as i hate cheaters (or more exploiters in this case) i just cant see the point in banning them from XBL. i mean banning them in CoD would be fine but on whole XBL ... come on, seems not justified.

    next we get XBL bans when we moan about MS on forums ... gah

  • metalangel #8 2 years ago

    In the same vein of the Druggy Olympics, can we have servers just for those marathon lightweight knife only people, and lump them in with bunnyhopping akimbo ranger people? They can run around being cunts at each other while the rest of us can get back to having fun.

  • Paperghost #9 2 years ago

    "as much as i hate cheaters (or more exploiters in this case) i just cant see the point in banning them from XBL. i mean banning them in CoD would be fine but on whole XBL ... come on, seems not justified."

    It's exactly this kind of bizarre leniency we continually show these cheaters that allows them to be a big enough problem that you end up with articles like this and whole forums dedicated to the "noble art" of cheating.

    Why tolerate them at all? If you don't ban them wholesale, they just jump from one game to the next and fire up the next round of cheats. You're paying good money to play games that aren't being screwed around with, not deal with idiots like that.

  • Toothball #10 2 years ago

    @justsomeone:

    Not a bad idea, but you'd then run the risk of them wearing it proudly as some kind of badge of dishonour. It'd need to be something that they really didn't want to have.

  • TheApologist #11 2 years ago

    Banning people for an exploit? If it's in the game it isn't cheating. They should just patch it out quicker or (get this) before release!

  • kendoji #12 2 years ago

    This doesn't sound like a bug, really. If anything it sounds realistic - take some explosives and run into the thick of it and blow yourself and everyone around you up. After the airport level I'd imagine this was just the ticket.

  • shinesevens #13 2 years ago

    What about people that use the "Chopper Gunner" glitch where you just have to hold down a button and you can kill the entire opposing team 3 times over??

    Threatening to ban people for this is just plain stupid.

  • Paperghost #14 2 years ago

    "Threatening to ban people for this is just plain stupid."

    Only if you think someone who uses one glitch doesn't use a ton of others too. If IW think it's bad enough to warrant a suspension or a ban, so be it.

  • JonFE #15 2 years ago

    Having no experience in MW2 multiplayer, may I ask something: Can this glitch be used/exploited by accident by an unaware gamer? Because if it can, banning seems a bit harsh...

  • Steroyd #16 2 years ago

    Banning people for an exploit? If it's in the game it isn't cheating. They should just patch it out quicker or (get this) before release!

    Yes it is cheating if they're giving themselves an unfair advantage to others, like hiding in an obscure part of a level where you can shoot and not be shot then it's cheating.

    That said this just sounds like a suicide run with a rocket launcher, don't know how they're going to patch that out.

    That said isn't banning them from the whole service a tiny bit extreme, banning them from the game is understandable, but what if you accidently get caught in a glitch when a mod just happens to walk by?

  • peteb #17 2 years ago

    This glitch sounds AWESOME!

    They should add it officially into some kind of extra mode. I think it would be a laugh running away from crazy exploding people.

  • BabyJesus #18 2 years ago

    About time Microsoft actually started punishing cheaters....how about all the other games that get ruined by cheaters and exploiters ?Are those games not popular enough to start punishing people?

  • Paperghost #19 2 years ago

    "but what if you accidently get caught in a glitch when a mod just happens to walk by?"

    If you're genuinely stuck, you're probably not going to be shooting at people while trapped in a "hidden" spot that you can't get out of. Most people would just quit the game. Most of the "hide inside the landscape" cheats I've seen on MW2 so far involve very deliberate actions to get inside them (VERY unlikely you'd accidentally end up inside the rock on the Afghan level, for example).

    Also, MS will take complaints from other gamers in your session into account along with a few other things.

  • youhavenomail #20 2 years ago

    Ban everyone who kills me.

  • secombe #21 2 years ago

    personally, i think every gamer avatar should simply be marked for life - dorian gray style - with some visible marks exposing them as a cheater. that way the shame of your idiocy will never leave you, and others can decide if they want to play with you or not.

    Presumably, at some point, somebody accidently discovered this though. The problem with glitches is that they are just that, Turn 10 are looking into banning those who have used the credits glitch in Forza 3, that's fine where people are genuinely exploiting it, but presumably a very very small percentage of gamers will stumble upon such things by accident. Then what do you do? It's not as though you can give the credits to charity, once you have them, you have them.

  • Skurmedel #22 2 years ago

    I remember all the glitches that plagued CoD 4... they never fixed any of these. I guess this has to be really grating if they are going to patch it :)

  • nuanimal #23 2 years ago

    Interesting... news, and comments.

    Ok so let me get this straight... you can sprint with a rocket launcher and then act as a suicide bomber. That is an interesting game mechanic whether intentional or not. Just seen the Kotaku youtube vid.

    Now I agree with hate towards cheaters, but what I find more interesting about this instance is peoples reactions. I mean this is some bug that IW has unintentionally left in. What surprises me is that people are angry that people exploited it. So what someone mangaed to bend the rules of the game and make life miserable for others? What did you think was going to happen?

    I'm not condoning it - but Jesus what did you expect?

    /Braces for negs

    Agree with kendoji.

  • XdarXideX #24 2 years ago

    @GamerG

    Glitches and Cheats are different things. This Javelin exploit is both though... despite the fact it kills you, it affects others too!

    @Freek

    Shipping a game bug-free is harder than you may think. No matter how much time you have to find bugs, there will always be one or two game breaking bugs that make it in, unfound.

  • The-Bodybuilder #25 2 years ago

    JIHAD!!!!

    Sorry.

  • trevd72 #26 2 years ago

    Its not cheating. they are using the game and environment in a different way to you. you choose to play your way, they take advantage of whats around them. it up to you to shoot them before they get to you. Next we will be handing out bans to the taliban for just not being cricket.

    i cannot see a problem with it, its not like they are sitting outside the map and cannot be shot. also this game does involve terrorism, is this not terrorism!

  • metalangel #27 2 years ago

    I don't really see this as too different from just holding a grenade until it explodes.

  • Unclebenny #28 2 years ago

    nuanimal- I'm not sure I understand your argument. Are you saying that because cheating is inevitable we should just accept it and get on with our lives?

    I'd wondered what was going on with this suicide bomber thing thats been going on recently. The worst thing is if you shoot them they explode. So all you can do is run away from them. Its like a metaphor for taking on armies of terrorists. Maybe not...

    I think the most important point to remember for those whop try to justify cheating/ exploiting is that you are taking a level playing field and bending it to your advantage and that is the only reason these people get such stupidly high scores. That doesn't make you a good player it just makes you a gimp. Often these people haven't even discovered these gliteches/ cheats themselves they've just heard them on a forum.

    So they were'nt being creative in the first place.

    They can read....

    I bet thats one of their few skills...

  • patchbox360 #29 2 years ago

    Communist gaming

    i can do what i want in the game that i paid for.... oh wait... i can't

  • busboy33 #30 2 years ago

    @nuanimal:

    "So what someone mangaed to bend the rules of the game and make life miserable for others? What did you think was going to happen?"

    Well, I thought they would get fu@king banned.

    Honestly, I find your attitude stunning. If you pop in Forza3 and start a race, you know there's going to be some nimrod that tries to race backwards on the track trying to ram the other players. The ability is in the game. People are dickheads that giggle when they ruin other people's fun.

    So you should accept that behavior? The $60 you paid for a racing game has been turned into $60 you paid for a "get rammed by JackHole Jonny" game. The fact that your game has been ruined is just too bad? Really?

    Do you mute the screaming mutherfu@kers in your headset? Why? The ability to do it is given to them by MS. You know people will act like obnoxious dickheads if given the chance. Why mute them and/or report them? Just accept it, or give up playing the games that you paid for and have every right to enjoy.

    When you file a complaint against a player for "gameplay", the examples of reportable offenses are driving backwards on a track and team killing -- both "in" the game (and not even glitches). I agee with MS. People who do that should be kept from ruining the game for everybody else. Want to do sh!t like that? Go into a private room with all your friends and screw around as much as you like. In public? Hell no.

    When the hell did "personal responsibility" turn into "it's your fault for not making it impossible for me to act like a dick"? Do you blame the car manufacturer when you get caught speeding? After all, the car CAN go that fast, so it's like they are making you speed thru town! Do they expect you to only speed in controlled and safe areas, like a high-speed track? If you can speed on the track, why shouldn't you speed next to a school when it lets out? I mean, you CAN do it, so what's wrong with actually doing it? If the parents and kids don't like it, too damn bad.

    When I park my car outside your bedroom window at 4 AM and rattle your teeth with my stereo (things I CAN do), do you say "oh well" or do you come down and kick my ass and/or call the cops? How on earth is this any different?
    Edited by 1 at 03/12/09 @ 10:47

  • busboy33 #31 2 years ago

    @metalangel:

    The difference is that the javelin is stupidly more powerful than a grenade. The kill radius is insane. That's one of the reasons (aside from "reality";) that the javelin is a delayed, indirect fire weapon -- it would be too unbalancing if you could point it at a window and quick blast a shot of hell right through, or get it into a secured building and take out an entire floor or two.

  • TruWari3r #32 2 years ago

    Not that I've done this (more for lack of javelin) but it's not really a big glitch or exploit like going off the map.

    With the javelin equipped and semtex in your class, press and hold rb, press y to switch to javelin while still holding down rb

    Get yourself killed

    Now I imagine the bigger bang is because of the javelin exploding with the semtex but don't forget, you have to be pretty close by for it to really work.

    So yes, a more explosive martyrdom.


    [link url=http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=c-gcMHEthqI
    ]http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=c-gcMHEthqI
    [/link]


    In contrast, players on gears of war 2 glitch map, bridge host, hack leaderboards

    and there's no mention of banning. crapola

  • dirk_aircool #33 2 years ago

    Freek. I agree.
    xdarxidex . yes we know but you cant ban people from a sevice they PAY for because you left BUGS in your game that they PAID for.

  • ziggy_played_guitar #34 2 years ago

    @ dirk: yes they can, it's in the TOS.

    "Communist gaming

    i can do what i want in the game that i paid for.... oh wait... i can't

    What did you try to say? ehehe, you seem confused.

  • dirk_aircool #35 2 years ago

    ziggy
    your right.I dont know what I was thinking. I'm a thought criminal and I never knew it.
    Edited by 1 at 03/12/09 @ 11:07

  • Steroyd #36 2 years ago

    The worst thing is if you shoot them they explode.

    Ah NOW I see how the Javelin gets classified as a cheat.

  • FenderMaster #37 2 years ago

    Sagat users should be banned in SF IV too... cheating bastards!

  • ziggy_played_guitar #38 2 years ago

    @ dirk: huh? where did that come from? I was only saying it's in the TOS, it's also in the TOS that MS can close Live any time they want and you don't get a refund. Point being, when one clicks accept he agrees with it. I think it's fair to say if you dig modding; glitching; "creative gaming" Live is not the place to be.

  • Metalfish #39 2 years ago

    With this glitch the rocket fires after death. You can't do anything about it.

  • bing #40 2 years ago

    So what about the people at the top of the leaderboards with 8,000+ killstreaks, surely they should be the priority for bannings?

    *fixed spelling
    Edited by 1 at 03/12/09 @ 11:23

  • nuanimal #41 2 years ago

    @busboy33

    Like I said - I'm not condoning it, and I think you might have missed the intention of my post. sorry if it wasn't clear.

    My post was about people in genrals reaction. There will always be people to cheat the system - whatever and yes there are actions for it on live. Mods monitoring, reporting gamertags, leaving negative feedback.

    My point being is - it happens - and the fact its likely an aspect of people human nature to get an advantage.


  • bing #42 2 years ago

    @Dirk 'yes we know but you cant ban people from a sevice they PAY for because you left BUGS in your game that they PAID for.'

    This is not a bug, it is a glitch that certain people are knowingly choosing to take advantage of. Also from this article I would say it is quite obvious they CAN be banned for it.

  • Mordum #43 2 years ago

    Can't stand these people trying to gain an advantage by cheating... I had someone using this 'Javelin' glitch on the Airport level yesterday, I didn't know about any glitch so I was a bit confused why I was dying in a big bang everytime I killed him. I still beat him though, so that was some consolation.
    Had someone ask me if I knew how to get into the rock on the Afghan level too, I had no idea what he was talking about until I looked it up online... What's so fun about glitchingfor these people?

  • Freek #44 2 years ago

    A glitch doesn't require you to hack or break anything. You are simply playing the game as is, no gameshark, no shenanigans, everything in there is as the developer made it, including the glitch.
    People dislike it, sure, but in essence a glither isn't breaking any laws.

  • Peew971 #45 2 years ago

    OMG 24h ban! What a massive punishment!!!
    Seriously, is that it? How about resetting their rank or something?!

  • hiddenranbir #46 2 years ago

    Maybe fix the glitch?

  • kangarootoo #47 2 years ago

    My thoughts.

    1. Shipping a game 100% bug free is impossible. Fact.

    2. 24 hours really isn't that long.

    3. I like the "branded as a cheater" idea, though I don't think it should last forever. If someone learns their lesson, the brand should expire. If they repeat offend, the penalty time should increase proportionally.

  • ziggy_played_guitar #48 2 years ago

    @ Freek: What laws? I don't think you understood who's the referee here...
    And I'm fairly sure that way more users prefer to have a "glitch/cheat free" *paid* envirnment to play on rather than a "everything goes" one (that's certainly one of the reasons I pay for the service, otherwise I'd use a PC).

  • kangarootoo #49 2 years ago

    "You're taking it too seriously"

    The greatest enemy of debate. It is what people only ever say when they have ran out of proper responses.

  • tachometer #50 2 years ago

    Say what you like about the glitch but it's one sure way of sorting out the tactical knife spammers

  • butler` #51 2 years ago

    punishing players for the failings of their own code/system ftw

  • asphaltcowboy #52 2 years ago

    Genuinely amazed that there are people here that don't have a problem with people cheating, or indeed condoning it in some cases... Remarkable! Basically the glitch boils down to an instant, super-sized version of Martydom, made worse if they use the Danger Close perk as well. So, that's knife kills out and basically trouble if you're on any map that's reasonable small or full of confined spaces.

    In fairness, I don't know why anyone would want to use it anyway - it can't good for your kill/death ratio (unless you happen upon a whole team in one go). In fact, the only thing I imagine it's good for is wrecking people's killstreaks. Which is an incredibly cuntish thing to do if you can't do it properly!

  • Freek #53 2 years ago

    The game is the referee. If it allows it, it's fair game, if you don't want something to happen: fix the code.

    Uncool: yes. Cheating: not really.
    Edited by 2 at 03/12/09 @ 12:02

  • tachometer #54 2 years ago

    How is this policeable anyway

  • ziggy_played_guitar #55 2 years ago

    @ Freek: No it's not. You know who's the referee, and it's more like "if you don't agree with the bannings, don't cheat, or use another (private) network".

    Regarding the "it allows" point, someone used the driving backwards in Forza as a good example to deconstruct that *sorta-BS'ish* argument.

  • butler` #56 2 years ago

    Shipping a game 100% bug free is impossible. Fact.
    the point is, banning players is NEVER the answer, regardless of your stand point on game development and game breaking bugs

  • JahB #57 2 years ago

    The game is the referee. If it allows it, it's fair game, if you don't want something to happen: fix the code.

    Uncool: yes. Cheating: not really.

    that's just plain stupid. the game's not allowing it, it's a bug. that's why you have xbox live banning people - just cause your car can do 200 miles an hour still doesn't mean you can get away with it on a public road.
    Edited by 1 at 03/12/09 @ 12:10

  • JahB #58 2 years ago

    the point is, banning players is NEVER the answer, regardless of your stand point on game development and game breaking bugs

    yes it is. it's painfully obvious that this is a bug and not a game feature, and if you're knowingly exploiting a technical issue, you're cheating. which should get you banned, and imo it should be perma-ban, not this 24 hour slap on the wrist.

  • Mooglepies #59 2 years ago

    WIth Valve's Anti-Cheat system (VAC) once you're banned you stay banned, and it's cross-game.

    THe problem with that is there's very little you can do to repeal a ban on it, which is particularly annoying if you get hacked (I've seen it happen to friends before, thankfully we appealed to PCG magazine to speak to Valve on our behalf and it got sorted).

    A difficult quandary.

  • ziggy_played_guitar #60 2 years ago


    what on earth? "You're taking it too seriously" is a perfectly reasonable thing to say. It is a game. A form of entertainment. Switch servers/hosts and move on. No need to cry about it?

    huh?! The ones who think the bannings are unfair are the ones who seem to be crying about. And, try wasting 30 minutes of your life in Forza just to when some Johny loser who can't drive starts driving backwards just because he can't catch the1wst place anymore. How's that about entertainment?

  • dupplawt #61 2 years ago

    What do they mean 'people caught using'? How are they going to catch people using it?

  • asphaltcowboy #62 2 years ago

    @dupplawt Live do have "Enforcers" that play in games and look for instances of cheating/exploiting.

  • ziggy_played_guitar #63 2 years ago

    Idk; Halo 3 does the banning somehow... it seems automatic. I was grinding for XP with two controllers and I was banned for a week - and that didn't interfer with anyones game I was playing alone - I didn't even know it wasn't legal. Fair play anyway... not complaining.

    On this idk, if it's not automatic ti might be using the "Xbox Ambassadores" they are hundreds of them.

  • Spekingur #64 2 years ago

    Wow, Freek. By your words I would assume you to be a person that uses every glitch in any game you play because it's a "feature".

  • bigshot316 #65 2 years ago

    How is shooting the ground to kill yourself and those around you a glitch?

    Or is it something worse???

  • asphaltcowboy #66 2 years ago

    @bigshot316 It's far worse than that, especially because you're not normally even allowed to fire that particular weapon without establishing a lock-on first. Plenty of the comments explain what happens...
    Edited by 1 at 03/12/09 @ 12:34

  • Paperghost #67 2 years ago

    "@dupplawt Live do have "Enforcers" that play in games and look for instances of cheating/exploiting."

    You don't even need the enforcers to be present, more often than not.

    When you're playing a game online with the 360, many games (especially the popular multiplayer ones) track every single move you make in a game, what you do, how you do it etc. By doing so, they can build up ludicrously detailed statistics on (for example) how popular a map is, the most common routes taken, identify bottlenecks etc.

    the general idea is continued examination of whether or not their map design was up to scratch, if something needs tweaking or not etc - but a nice side effect of this is that you can in theory use this data to see who has been cheating, how they did it, what supposedly "blocked off" sections they were running around in.

    It's kind of like spyware, but useful (for a change). I think a good portion of cheaters are completely unaware exactly how much data is collected on them while playing.

  • busboy33 #68 2 years ago

    @Raajaa:

    Conceeded the final example (or all the car examples) are over-the-top. Analogies are rarelyt exactly identical.

    What about the reverse-track drivers? Of team-killers? No big deal? Just the way of life? Or get the hell outta my game?

    I take playing games seriously because I enjoy it -- and the lack of common courtesy just stuns me. I just don't understand the defenders of glitching. They KNOW they're glitching. They know full well that hiding in a rock isn't part of the game. "Well, I can, so it's really IWs fault for not releasing a perfect game, and MS for providing the online service that lets me screw with other peoples games. Not my fault."

    It's like the modders every time MS dos a banhammer wave. They actually act indignant that there are consequences for what they do.

    Maybe I am being too serious. Maybe I should just accept that all my online games are going to be ruined by dickheads and just take up a new hobby. But let me ask you this -- why SHOULDN'T they get banned? Its an intentional action done to "cheat" in the game. No one doing it is unaware of what they are doing. Cheaters get banned. Dickheads get banned. Why not cheating dickheads?

  • asphaltcowboy #69 2 years ago

    Well said busboy!

  • davisorle #70 2 years ago

    There will always be cheaters. Just like losers that have no luck under the sun and turn into stealing shit, same way tards that just aint capable of progressing or being any good in gaming will be cheating. Ban them, kick them, mark them for life, I can care less. Just get them the f**k out of my way cause in general cheaters and exploiters piss me the f**k off. Seriously they do. Big time too. Can you tell? :)

  • metalangel #71 2 years ago

    @busboy33: thanks for clearing that up, haven't earned the javelin yet (not for lack of playing either!) ... As for Forza reverse drivers, that's why the game has that option to make cars going the wrong way or at a stop into ghosts.

  • mr_boogedy #72 2 years ago

    Ok, I understand people getting ticked off with the "cheaters" racking up massive kills... But, you buy the game, pay money to access the online features, find some bugs, take advantage of them: get banned!
    I actually do have a problem with that. Brand them with a scarlet letter, fix the patch.

    Or maybe I'm wrong, and should bash my friend to death when he snakes in Mario Kart next time...

  • Unclebenny #73 2 years ago

    These arguments for "It can be done therefore why shouldn't I" are so stupid it makes my kidneys hurt.

    It's obviously cheating, the fact people have to go out of their way to defend it shows its cheating.

    "I'm not a cheater but..."

    To those who defend this kind of behaviour, why in a game of skill would take all the skill away by hiding in a rock or becoming a suicide bomber. Nothing good comes from suicide bombing. By hiding in a imprentrable rock, you just prove what a skilless and class- less player you are. Unable to get a decent kil streak unless protected by an invisble barrier.

  • EraSerX #74 2 years ago

    This is why I only play single player

  • LazyDan #75 2 years ago

    I guess if Quake 1 were released today, rocket jumping would be an exploit.

  • patchbox360 #76 2 years ago

    reverse car drivers ?? - then forza programmers should code for any car that is going the opposite way around the track

    if i am playing innocently and happen to do this glitch by mistake, i could be banned for a day - will i be reinbursed for my day of paid for xbox live , hell no, the money is nothing but its a matter of principle.

    @ziggy_played_guitar - the principle being that gamers shouldn't have to lose out on entertainment they paid for because of an avoidable glitch the programmers failed to address. i hope you understand

  • asphaltcowboy #77 2 years ago

    @patchbox360 There is no way you could do this glitch by accident. Which might explain why it wasn't picked up on in the first place.

  • jamespo #78 2 years ago

    Suggest everyone defending this has a look at the Terms Of Service... MS owns you and there is nothing you can do about it.

  • Grayvern #79 2 years ago

    People are objecting because of how authoritarian it feels, regardless of how annoying cheap cheating techniques are. However there are other far more annoying legal ways to play many online shooters so I fail to see why people are so annoyed.

  • Paulie_P #80 2 years ago

    I wish FIFA had the same attitude to cheating as Microsoft.

  • VicViper #81 2 years ago

    @justanotherdave

    Heresy! this isn't just another game, this is modern warfare goddamn 2! it is vitally important that each and every detail is argued in any artical possible.

    On the subject of the exploit its a pretty specific setup to get it to work, haven't encoutered yet but then like a MMO if you want to get decent scores you have to copy the good builds which means Mara+lighwiegth+commando sadly although I trying to find some originality somewhere.



    Edited by 1 at 03/12/09 @ 14:33

  • miiiguel #82 2 years ago

    "Suggest everyone defending this has a look at the Terms Of Service... MS owns you and there is nothing you can do about it. "

    QFT. You can always leave or click "Don't accept" at the TOS agreement that's what you can do about it. Same thing if I try to smoke on a cab..., I'm invited to leave and I still need to pay for the incomplete ride.
    Edited by 1 at 03/12/09 @ 14:50

  • busboy33 #83 2 years ago

    @patchbox:

    If it happens once, then its an accident -- MS doesn't ban under those circumstances.

    You run 20 matches in a row doing nothing but the glitch -- "but I didn't know goodness me I'm so innocent" starts to ring a little hollow and you get your whopping 24 hour ban. A polite "knock it off fu@ktard" from XBL.

    Its the principle of the thing, that you want your 13 cents for getting yourself banned ("you" in this case being hypothetical)? Does that mean your glitching and ruining other people's games means they should be able to get 1.5 cents each from you? Y'know . . . for the principle? Or should they collect from MS for you crapping on the games they paid to play?

    There are two seperate questions here. The first is, does glitching equal "cheating"? So far it seems like the defenders of glitching are using semantic games to confuse the issue. Its in the game, so its not unsporting. I'm not using external software, so its not hacking. I wasn't specifically and personally directed not to do it. You can't prove I was trying to cheat.

    Fortunately, XBL has provided a standard for "unsporting conduct" since the 360 launched, right there in the XBL interface. If you file a negative review on someone (i.e.: "dear god keep this fu@ktard away from me";), one of the reasons to do so is "game behavior" --> "unsporting conduct", which Microsoft defines in this manner: "The player did not play according to the rules or the spirit of the game (for example, driving the wrong direction or 'team-killing')".

    That's just to review a player. The next higher step is filing a complaint. Grounds for a complaint? "Tampering" ---> "Cheating", which is defined in the dashboard as "the player used known or unknown in-game or other exploits to influence the results of a game.". Does the Javelin Glitch qualify under this definition? Absolutely yes.

    Now, we can all get metaphysical and ponder "what does cheating mean?", or get interpretative and exclaim "why that definition is so vague and broad it could cover anything at all, even just turning the game on! How could anyone possibly know what behavior is covered by that?", and that would be a fun way to kill time while getting drunk at the bar. But when we sober up the next day, I don't think there can be any real doubt that the Javelin Glitch properly falls under that definition of "cheating". You may not like the definition, but its been the same for years, and its the rules of the system. You may not like that you're not allowed to use the gamertag "SucKmYC@ckUwhore", but that's too damn bad because those are the rules. Dont like it? Don't play on XBL. Wanna play on XBL? Then these are the rules. Its as simple as that.

    I said that there were two questions, and the second question is: is a day long suspension an appropriate punishment for glitching?

    Personally, I think it is. The penalty is relatively painless. You can't play online for a whole day (costing less than 14 cents), and that's it. As others have pointed out, cheaters tend to cheat all the time, across every game they can. A system-wide online ban drives home the message that this behavior is unacceptable, period. Rather than simply going to another game to screw with people, a day-long ban acts as a "time out" to make the cheater regret what they have done, and hopefully encourage them not to do it again (because the next ban is longer, slowly escalating until you get permabanned).

    Now, while I think its fair I also respect the position that its too harsh. Again, over a beer or twelve this would make a great topic of conversation. Just let them roam free? Maybe some sort of mentoring program? Public shaming? Its academic in the sense that XBL isn't a democracy, so we don't get a say in the penalty. But different people can legitimately disagree as to the "appropriate" penalty for cheating.

    But as to the first question . . . I honestly don't think there can be any debate, at least not an honest question. Hell, we can argue "what the definition of 'is' is", but aside from the semantic exercise people damn well know what 'is' is. And under the XBL rules and definitions, the Javelin Glitch is cheating. I also think its pretty clear from some of these comments that the glitch defenders know damn well its "dirty pool" to some extent. Unfortunately, since the penalty for cheating is an inevitable ban (question two) the only defense available is to argue that it isn't cheating at all (question one).

    As a former defense attorney, I understand the strategy of the argument. I also respect that its the only possible argument that you can make about the issue. But just because you can make an argument doesn't mean its a valid argument, and I don't see any legitimate question in regards to "is it cheating?". Yes. Yes it is.

  • Skurmedel #84 2 years ago

    I don't know if it's still in the game (this was in the prequel), but I've seen another interesting tactic.. It's not a glitch but an abuse of the (rubbish) "kill streak" system. Two guys, on voice chat join opposing teams. One hides in a remote spot, the other one runs up to him and kills him, repeat 15 times. Voilá, guy 1 has a chopper he can call in. After that it's the other guys turn.

    Two guys did that an entire afternoon in a game I had joined, my only purpose became chasing these guys around and botching their lame attempts.

  • busboy33 #85 2 years ago

    @nuanimal:

    "My point being is - it happens - and the fact its likely an aspect of people human nature to get an advantage."

    I absolutely agree -- but its just as much human nature that the rest of the people will react to the advantage taker. The Circle of Life and all that. Of course people will cheat. Of course the society will punish them for doing so. People will cheat, and when cought they will get stroked. That's the natural order of things.

  • ziggy_played_guitar #86 2 years ago

    @patchbox360 : well, what I didn't understand is what that "idea" has to do with Communism?! I'm not expecting to find a Marx connoisseur here but that was way too far out.

  • orpheus #87 2 years ago

    @ busboy33

    Damn right. Applause for that man!

  • ziggy_played_guitar #88 2 years ago

    @ busboy, sometimes +1 is not enough.

  • patchbox360 #89 2 years ago

    @busboy33

    "Cheating", which is defined in the dashboard as "the player used known or unknown in-game or other exploits to influence the results of a game.". Does the Javelin Glitch qualify under this definition? Absolutely yes.

    what an absolute joke by microsoft - that definition doesn't even make sense - the fact that the exploit is 'in-game' means that it exist in the code and should therefore be considered by all players as a means to influence the result of the game. Microsoft's definition of 'cheating' presumes that something that can be done within the game code shouldn't be done, it also presumes that all gamers are abidding by some fair play rule book with the knowledge of what can and can't be done in an imperfectly coded game. Penalising the player for the mistake of the programmers is not the answer and is just an authoritarian move by microsoft.

  • miiiguel #90 2 years ago

    You can't please all, like many said, it's not like glitch/cheating-friends don't have any other option. Just don't use Live. Simple, innit?

    If it was otherwise - let anyone do whatever, aka "anarchland"- I woud leave. I'm glad there's a playground for everyone's tastes.

    slightly off-topic: there's a speech which had an improvement from the totally moronic (Killzone 2!) to a simple bluntly prejudiced (still, esoteric reasons apply).
    Edited by 3 at 03/12/09 @ 17:10

  • JensonJet #91 2 years ago

    I want a filter so I can avoid anyone who's glitched/cheated/pirated games at any time. They would then be avoidable in all games. Having reference in their gamer card would be useful too. This seems the fair way to handle the situation.

    Give the honest gamers an easy option to avoid these pathetic losers and everyone's happy. Eventually they'd find it impossible to join games because so many people would have the 'avoid c*nt' filter on and would eventually be forced to start a new gamertag/account.

  • busboy33 #92 2 years ago

    @patchbox:

    Are you honestly claiming that you don't know whether doing it is intentionally part of the game or a glitch? Honestly? Did you also not know that reverse driving in Forza3 is not intentional, even though you can do it? Is that news to you? I mean, I don't want to put too much pressure on you.
    How about team killing? Play MW2 on hardcore, and friendly fire is enabled. Would you be shocked to find out that when the match starts, you're not supposed to turn on your team an shoot them all in the back? Really, its true! Even though you can!

    Are you really claiming that you are that unbelievably stupid? I'm not trying to insult you, but what would you call someone who doesn't know you're not supposed to shoot your own team?

    "it also presumes that all gamers are abidding by some fair play rule book with the knowledge of what can and can't be done in an imperfectly coded game. Penalising the player for the mistake of the programmers is not the answer and is just an authoritarian move by microsoft. "

    Respectfully, bullsh!t. You know damn well that you're abusing the program to get it to do something it wasn't supposed or intended to do. Notice you are saying two different things at the same time: first, you couldn't possibly know what was intended and second, the sloppy programming of IW should be blamed for the exploit. You know its a program error (so you can blame IW), but you couldn't know if its intentional or not. Clearly you DO know, as error implies its not supposed to be there. This is the WifeBeater defense -- "I didn't do it and she deserved it!" "I Didn't know I was cheating and its their fault I could cheat in the first place!"

    Man up. Every single person doing it KNOWS they are cheating/glitching/exploiting/abusing the game. If you can honestly say to me you didn't realize you wern't supposed to do that, or that you thought something called "The Javelin GLITCH" was intended by the game makers to be used in-game, then with all due respect you are a moron. I don't think you are a moron. I think you fully know what was happening, and are now arguing definitions to avoid it. If you know its not supposed to be in the game, then doing it is cheating.

    ignoratum non excusam (forgive the horrible spelling) has been a maxim for millenia, specifically because every person cought cheating or breaking the rules since the dawn of man has used the same tired excuse. If someone is in reality completely ignorant the shooting your team in the back intentionally, driving the wrong way on a track during a race, or that glitches are unintended exploits of code . . . . well, then then an innocent man gets punished. Sorry. Truly a travesty of justice. Don't know what else to tell you. I find it hard to believe that someone so clueless can breathe without assistance, let alone play games, but if they can they're going to get in trouble. If they can't tell the difference between hookers in a crackhouse and the Girl Scouts meeting at the Rec Center . . . well then he's gonna get into alot of trouble when the cops raid the crackhouse. Even if his story of thinking these were just really friendly Girl Scouts who liked collecting for their cookies in advance is true, he's in trouble. Either he's in trouble for breaking the rules or for being dumber than dirt . . . but he's still in trouble.

  • monkeywithnoeyes #93 2 years ago

    "Using any bug or glitch to gain advantage in a game is expressly against our Terms of Use and Code of Conduct"- nice for them to be so morally inclined. Shame it's not their terms and conditions for developers not to release bug ridden glitched games on the console in the first place

  • patchbox360 #94 2 years ago

    @busboy33

    first point - 'it also presumes that all gamers are abidding by some fair play rule book with the knowledge of what can and can't be done in an imperfectly coded game'

    (until microsoft confirms that this particular glitch is an exploit it is impossible to consider it one (prove how i could), it only becomes a matter of 'cheating' after microsoft reviews its potential to be exploitative and unfair, therefore making anyone who does it before microsofts conclusion or without knowledge of microsofts conclusion innocent.)

    second point - 'Penalising the player for the mistake of the programmers is not the answer and is just an authoritarian move by microsoft'

    (After microsofts realising and confirming it is a glitch, you would NOW know it was unintented fault by the programmers. My point is why should i be monetarily penalised for an error in the game that microsoft saw fit to release.)

    wife beating (assault) is a crime with rules that state exactly what constitutes the crime, so i know or could be aware of those rules before hand.
    a glitch in a videogame that allows a guy holding explosives to explode and kill those around him is not something i could have fully acknowledged to be a cheat with monetary penalties and banning from xbox live BEFORE microsofts confirming of such.
    Not everyone has the same point of view of what should or should not be done in a game - I rocket launch people in killzone who are 2 feet away from me killing myself in the process because i dont care and its my right to do it, if you don't like it get good with a sniper rifle and pick me off before i get near you but if my online was cut off for these actions i would be pissed.

  • Fab4 #95 2 years ago

    youve obviously never written a piece of code in your puff, Monkey.

  • smelly #96 2 years ago

    well just read article - what a bag of shite. If it's an exploit in an UNMODIFIED version of the game - i dont see why the gamers shouldnt be allowed to use it...

  • smelly #97 2 years ago

    @patchbox360 : First time for everything - i agree with you +1.

  • patchbox360 #98 2 years ago

    @Fab4

    no i haven't coded a game

    whats ur point? please dont hurt urself

  • Jamiesan #99 2 years ago

    'Penalising the player for the mistake of the programmers is not the answer'
    I agree. I don't want to be penalised by way of 14yr old American kids running at me with a Javelin shouting "ALLAH!" down the mic.

  • busboy33 #100 2 years ago

    @patchbox:

    "(until microsoft confirms that this particular glitch is an exploit it is impossible to consider it one (prove how i could), "

    You can't prove what is in someones mind . . . ever. If the police arrest you with a bag of drugs in your pocket how can they PROVE you knew it was there? The only thing they can do is infer from the evidence.

    What is the evidence in this case?
    (1) there is no other way to make the Javelin immediate fire-and-detonate.
    (2) The Javelin requires a lockon in all other circumstances.
    (3) The glitch requires a specific combination of weapons.
    (4) Its called a GLITCH.
    (5) You are over the age of 6 (I presume) and understand the basic theory of FPS gameplay and design.

    Just think about your argument for a second. Are you claiming that the guy who hides in a rock is thinking IW added an invisible rock to the Afghan map? If I found out that jumping with akimbo rangers and pressing both shoulder buttons at the same time will allow the shotties to infinitely rapidfire without reloading, Are you saying the burden is on the developer to prove that I didn't think I had somehow turned the gun's "unlimited deathspray" switch on, which would be totally natural? You can't PROVE I didn't think that.
    By your rules MS has to personally go to each individual's residences and inform them face-to-face of a glitch. Otherwise, how can they PROVE you found out?
    You are being rediculous. You aren't saying "I had no idea that the Glitch was not supposed to be part of the game" because you know nobody would believe you. Like I said before, you're not that stupid. Instead, you're creating hypotheticals to argue abstract absolutes. Again, that's a fun discussion. But the fact that it is theoretically possible someone might in fact be so dumb has NO IMPACT on the reality of the glitchers, who are not.
    How do I know? Experience and Common Sense. Why is the burden on me? Can you PROVE that they didn't know they were glitching? They already violated the TOS and got punished . . . the burden is on them to excuse their prima facie guilt. "Well, I might not have known" isn't a defense, its desperation. It is unreasonable to think the person doesn't actually know if they knew they were glitching or not, unless they have sufferent some massive brain trauma.

    "wife beating (assault) is a crime with rules that state exactly what constitutes the crime, so i know or could be aware of those rules before hand."

    Really? You've read your penal code? Impressive, if a bit unbelievable. So . . . what are the specific elements of domestic violence that "exactly constitute" the crime? At least here in the states, DV and Assault are two distinct (albeit similar) crimes.

    You're mising the point (I think deliberately). MS is NOT penalizing the players for the programmers error. They are penalizing the players for EXPLOITING that error. If my father fails to lockup his gum, that is his error. Does that mean if I take it and go shoot someome I shouldn't be penalized for his mistake?
    You are saying that because the game has a glitch, its is unreasonable to hold a player accountable for using it. Respectfully, I think you are dead wrong on this issue. Players are responsible for what they do. In the "No Russian" level, did you gun down the civilians or not? Are you going to blame the choice you made on IW? That was an intentional choice, and you are responsible for your choice. The Glitch question is an unintentional choice . . . but you still choose to use it or not, and you are responsible for your choice.
    We want vidoe games to be treated with respect by non-gamers? Then lets all stop acting like 10-year olds and start acting responsible.

    "Not everyone has the same point of view of what should or should not be done in a game - I rocket launch people in killzone who are 2 feet away from me killing myself in the process because i dont care . . . "

    Which is fine. You can do that in MW2 as well. WITH THE ROCKET LAUNCHER. I fire 100 rounds with my M240 LMG in MW2 at people, so if I was able to change the bullets with RPGs and still rapid-spray 100 of them that would be totally fine? I can throw my knife at people indoors . . . why can't I throw my AC130 at people indoors?
    Edited by 1 at 04/12/09 @ 01:51

  • busboy33 #101 2 years ago

    To all the "its In-game so its not cheating" people:

    Can somebody define "ingame" for me? What does that mean?

  • JensonJet #102 2 years ago

    Busyboy,

    I think you're wasting your time arguing this point with cheaters, or those that claim it's a geniune way to play the game. You'll never change their minds. Their attitude is born from the same mentality as tax dodgers, frausters or unwarranted benefit claimaints. Not all of us are brought up with a sense of honesty, have acquired the skills to compete, or have the social skills to play in harmony with others.

    Fortunately Microsoft have a similar attitude to us. Although I actually think they're being far too soft. The industry needs to take a similar stance to the one authorities take on cheating sportspeople, or dishonest businesses. I would happily suggest cheats are of no benefit to the gaming community, and have given up their right to join a community who pay for the pleasure of honest gaming. A lifetime ban from the game with a careful eye on their future actions, resulting in a full ban if they're found cheating in three games. Problem solved. If people can't police themselves, then the likes of Microsoft need to get tougher.

  • Madder-Max #103 2 years ago

    "You'll never change their minds. Their attitude is born from the same mentality as tax dodgers, frausters or unwarranted benefit claimaints. "

    LOL! Daily Mail alert! Its a game that was released below standard ffs.

  • busboy33 #104 2 years ago

    @Madder Max:

    "Its a game that was released below standard ffs."

    So . . . its not cheating if you do it in a sub-standard hame?
    Or, is it still cheating, but cheating in any game that gets less than a AAA rating is acceptable?

    I'm just not sure what your insightful comment has to do with, well, with anything.

  • patchbox360 #105 2 years ago

    @JensonJet

    'Their attitude is born from the same mentality as tax dodgers, frausters or unwarranted benefit claimaints.'

    you forgot bankers, lawyers and polictians, by the way where is your tax money to pay for the bail out AKA bonus, their beautiful yachts can't buy themselves. Damn them to hell

    However finding loopholes to gain an advantage is a form of intelligence, it may not be considered right in certain circumstances, but its effectiveness cant be denied if it works i.e. the banker on his yacht paid for with our tax, the policitian with a second home paid for by our tax, microsoft using its financial superiority to corner off the pc market to kill off real competition, the WW2 decoders, the list goes on

    getting back to the game - 'MS is NOT penalizing the players for the programmers error.They are penalizing the players for EXPLOITING that error.' - in the english legal system if there is a loophole in the law - that loophole can be exploited without punishment until the loophole is closed because you cannot penalize someone for something they cannot reference to be a crime and in the case of this game the player should not be penalized for something they cannot reference to be an 'Error'.

    you seem a bit all over but this seems to be the basis of your argument - 'It is unreasonable to think the person doesn't actually know if they knew they were glitching or not, unless they have sufferent some massive brain trauma.' - you believe that the player knows they were glitching or should have known they were glitching - until you can PROVE that a person buying a game can differentiate between what part of an officially released, completed and tested code is wrong and what code is right without being adequately informed of such by the makers of the game or having an adequate point of reference to find out such information your arguement doesn't stand and any punishment to those players is unfair.

    the end (i dont even play MW2 - but this was fun)
    Edited by 1 at 04/12/09 @ 10:48

  • gnrlstuart #106 2 years ago

    it's totally unfair to ban people for exploiting a bug or a glitch, say if people were to do it completely unaware it was even a bug? and what is wrong with being bin anyway? if thats how you want to play, and nothing has been done to remove it, technically it is not cheating. even if it is annoying, it is still up to the developers to make sure that bug or glitch is fixed. and i strongly disagree with exploiting bugs to gain advantage, but i strongly disagree with banning people over it. thats just childish tit for tat.

  • Madder-Max #107 2 years ago

    "@Madder Max:

    "Its a game that was released below standard ffs."

    So . . . its not cheating if you do it in a sub-standard hame?
    Or, is it still cheating, but cheating in any game that gets less than a AAA rating is acceptable?

    I'm just not sure what your insightful comment has to do with, well, with anything."

    Southpark should do an episode on this. "glitch exploiting communist tax evader terrorists from hell!"
    Edited by 1 at 04/12/09 @ 13:02

  • Fab4 #108 2 years ago

    The simple fact is that whenever you signed up for XBL, you agreed to certain terms and conditions. One of those was to not use a known or unknown in-game exploit to gain an advantage. Now, you can argue all day about the semantics of those words all day if you want, however it doesnt matter. All that matters is that M$ believe what it means and can justifiably use that condition to exclude XBL users whom they deem to be ruining the service for the majority of others.

    I say good luck to them.

  • busboy33 #109 2 years ago

    @Patchbox:

    Great analogy woth the legal code . . . but you misapplied it.

    The code with the loophole isn't the game, the code is XBL. And there isn't a loophole. XBL's proscription against abusing bugs outranks the bugs themselves.

    It's not a sign of intelligence to screw someone else over to get an advantage . . . its a sign of selfish greed. If I snatch your mom's purse, I used my intelligence to see that she had left it dangerously unattended and to capitalize on the situation. Now, I've got her money. That doesn't make me smart (but if it makes you feel better to consider yourself smart for cheating in a game, knock yourself out).

    p.s.: I DID prove they knew it was glitching. Repeatedly. You are just ignoring it. I wonder why?

  • busboy33 #110 2 years ago

    @Madder Max:

    Are you actually trying to make a point? Or are your comments some form of stream-of-conciousness performance art?

  • IksanderRules #111 2 years ago

    busboy33, I love you..

    @patchbox360, I love how you engage in a topic of right and wrong when you have not even played the game in question. This does alleviate the suspicion that you are one of the users of this exploit, it just means you are an idiot. I hope you come to my defense when I blow up a building because "I was allowed to do so since nobody said that I couldn't do just this ." If you take a look at any video showing how to do this exploit, you will see that it requires you to: (A) Attempt to lock on with Javelin, (B) While trying to lock on to a target, press RB to hold a semtex, and (C) tap Y to switch back to Javelin and run into the enemy to explode. There isn't a single circumstance where this would happen on accident because, if you happened to try and use the Javelin, the only case where you would press the RB to throw a grenade would be if an enemy popped up in front of you, and in this case your reflex would probably be to "throw" the grenade. This doesn't require intelligence to do, all it needs you to do is have the little asshole in everyone to come out to ruin other people's entertainment. From what you say, I assume you swear at small children and flash people in public?

    Anyways, I now understand that I shouldn't wait for MS or IW to fix these issues, I'll just avoid, file my complaint, and leave the game. I do love when people use glitches or exploitations and then lose, it warms my heart to be a better and honest gamer.
    Edited by 2 at 07/12/09 @ 23:26