Miyamoto: you need a controller to hold Comments by Tom Bramwell

@Wastelander

Les is a well known troll. Dont get suckered into a 3 page de-rail, do like the majority of the forumites and just ignore the idiot.

Technology isn't the issue, its the application of that technology. And the unpalatable truth is Natal has relatively few useful applications, which is why despite the tech being actually pretty old its never come to prominence before now.

Greybeard what are you talking about, old tech, are you a moron, oh wait you are. A full 3D motion control camera with face and voice recognition, yeah old tech my ass. Do me a favour and stick your head back up Miyamoto's ass, because I think you like it there.

Yossarian: So if you're playing a racing game, you could use a regular controller to steer and accelerate, but use Natal to e.g. look around the cockpit and glance at the wing mirrors. Or you play a FPS with a regular controller, but use Natal to lean around corners, to crouch by ducking in your chair, etc.

Isn't that possible with the current Xbox camera?

Plus that all relies on the sensitivity of the camera, say you scratch your nose while in cockpit view in Forza, and the game mistakes that for a look left, or any slight head movement registers in the same way, meaning you'd need to have a stiff neck all race, plus relying on other people not getting in the camera's view while playing.

Also all these types of movements you could probably get a quicker more efficient response just pressing a button.

And if you do have to hold a controller while playing a game l it just re-inforces Miyamoto's point, if Micorosoft never went on about being controllerless Miyamoto wouldn't have said what he said.

I agree as this all augmented reality gaming and therefore omitting rumble is taking a step backward as it was with the Sixaxis when that was released.

@Greybeard: And lol at dismissing what Miyamoto has to say. Really, you know better than inarguably the worlds most famous and successful game designer?

So "famous and successful" game designers can't be wrong? Molyneux is also quite famous and successful as a game designer.

Sometimes you need to take a step back to take a leap forward imo. Rumble is something that can be easely omitted if you've gor a better alternative, cause you really don't need it to play a game at all. Same with clinging to a controller. Hell, some people still swear to a keyboard and mouse, where's the rumble in that?

i like my 360/PS3 pads as much as the next one, That doesn't mean there aren't going to be huge leaps elsewhere in the future. be it on PS3/360/Wii,/PC

@Negotiator

http://stanford-online.stanford.edu/cour...

Go to 58 minutes and watch as pretty much everything that MS showed with Natal is demonstrated running on a PS2 attached to a 3DV Zcam in 2004.

History of the tech (wikipedia):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZCam

Other applications of camera based tech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvDWleKmhYs (EU release Oct this year)

And of course:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZvxIjdyyII (EU release "holidays" 09)


And last, but not least, lest we get into a discussion on the merits and demerits of speech recognition, here's the wikipedia article on the subject as a primer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_reco...

I await your rebuttal.

It's kind of dumb of them to say "you need force feedback" when it is so blatantly missing from their own interpretation of motion controls. The pathetic buzzing the wiimote makes is just about enough to be annoying, but nowhere near enough to offer a tactile sense of feedback.

I don't think Miyamoto's comment has anything to do with rumble. He's talking about the immediate physical feedback you get from the act of pushing a button etc. And he's right.

"Sometimes you need to take a step back to take a leap forward imo. Rumble is something that can be easely omitted if you've gor a better alternative, cause you really don't need it to play a game at all."

Well what is the better alternative - As removing rumble is removing the connection between the users interaction in 3d virtual space and the simulation of touch of which a system that completely removes that without offering an alternative seems odd. Having nothing in your hands and no way to give the user the feeling of touch is not a leap forward at all.

"Isn't that possible with the current Xbox camera?"

Maybe if you dedicate the majority of the console's processing power to image recognition, the important bit that is in the Natal box. Oh, and you'd also need to have perfect lighting as Natal uses an Infrared camera to negate the low light issues that prevent a standard camera system from working.

So in short, no.


"Also all these types of movements you could probably get a quicker more efficient response just pressing a button."

Ah yes, leaning out of cover is such a natural thing to do on a controller that pretty much every FPS uses it.

I'm quite sure that in a flight sim the many switches and sliders could more easily be mapped to the practically infinte number of buttons on a standard controller than simply reaching out and 'touching' them using Natal, and RTS games, as everybody knows, are far more effeciently played on a standard controller than with a pointer or surface type controller.

So in short, no.


The possibllities for unique and innovative control schemes using Natal are huge, but if all people can think of is redundant replication of exisitng tailored-to-a-button-press controls just for the sake of said controls being on Natal and not a standard controller, then there really is no point, much like 90% of the Wii catalog.

However, when the devs get it right then like that golden 10% of the Wii catalog, the results will be unique, intuitive and a genuine improvment on standard controls.

I don't believe you need a controller or 'wand' for every kind of interactive game. So I disagree with SM completely.

When you shake hands with someone, there's no wand in your hand, so why do I need it in order to interact with a game, if the game code is perfectly happy to recognise the fact that I'm trying to shake hands with an in-game character.

Isn't that enough to reassure the character (let's say in a war game) that I'm on their side?

SM is simply jealous of the technology that Natal provides - Sony's is nothing new - and he's simply been told what to say by the Nintendo marketing people.

You know...Drop a few hints that it's crap and they don't have any experience in making games for it, but don't mention them by name, because they can put us out of business with one single defamation of character court case.

I agree with everything Miyamoto's said so far since E3. He claims Nintendo have the experience which shows in the Wii's top selling games. Look how many are published by Nintendo! Also as much as I think Microsoft have come up with a great invention apart from beat-em-up games you're gonna wanna be holding a sword if it involves sword action, a gun if it involves gun action, tennis racket if you're playing tennis etc... The gameplay just won't feel right without some sort of control pad in your hand.

"Same with clinging to a controller. Hell, some people still swear to a keyboard and mouse, where's the rumble in that?"

What would help the discussion is a clear definition of what a controller is IMO. Keyboard and mouse are forms of controllers. Like I said in another thread (and nicely quoted by Wastelander in here... ;) ) Natal can be argued to be a controller as well: It's a device that translates user input into commands that the game can understand.

A controller translates the intent of a gamer into an action in the game. The less ambiguous the user instruction, the more predictable the outcome will be (the action that the game performs). As such, a button is extremely effective but at the same time extremely limited (each action requires a button or combination of buttons). IMHO game designers should focus on streamlining the required user input for a game.

@Zedzee

But why would you want to mime shaking hands with a character in a videogame? As opposed to press a "shake hands" button, what advantages does it offer exactly?

It doesn't make it more realistic or immersive as you are basically waving your hand in empty space, presumably after having transferred the controller/plastic sword/whatever you were holding in your lead hand previously elsewhere.

Its a gimmick. No more, no less.

If it;s really about pressing buttons then why is Wii sports so popular? I really don't need a controller in my hand to see the little guy swinging tne way I do that. It's called visual feedback, which is enough in most cases.

"
Well what is the better alternative - As removing rumble is removing the connection between the users interaction in 3d virtual space and the simulation of touch of which a system that completely removes that without offering an alternative seems odd. Having nothing in your hands and no way to give the user the feeling of touch is not a leap forward at all."

I really never got a feeling of touch with any controller. I'm not exactly sure what you mean though, But making the same movements as a guy swinging a sword on screen on screen actually makes me identify a whole lot more with a charcter than a rumbling joypad, Gong through the motions so to say. Not that I like waggling and swinging, but if we were talking about touch, that would be the better option imo. Like I said, the same rumble for hitting a sword or or crashing a car kinda making the whole sensation a bit flat. Sure, it's nice to know when your character get's hit by a bullet, but that's usually amplified with a huge red splosh on screen as well. Nice bonus, not really worth that much in the end

"But why would you want to mime shaking hands with a character in a videogame? As opposed to press a "shake hands" button, what advantages does it offer exactly?"

^
A prime example of the uninspired literal thinking that produces such godawful shovelware on the Wii.

Go play a good example of motion controls like Boom Blox and tell me it could be translated to a standard controller.

I'll prepare a laugh ready for your reply.

@Ashen-Sugar

So, pray tell how is boom blocks going to work without a controller?

How is the hardware going to differentiate between a practice swing and proper throw?

Without some kind of mechanical device how does a game handle modal shifts in input? Gesture recognition (3d or 2d) can only get you so far. That's why you need a trigger, stick, or button.

Natal is an adjunct, an enhancement, a **partial** solution for most applications.

The $10,000 question is though, if you accept that reality, how much value does a pure controller-free interface like Natal offer over a hybrid system like the Wii-mote or Sony's wand thing.

The answer is VERY LITTLE. It's just a neat gimmick.

Exact same deal with Milo. Yes, its a neat trick but honestly if it was out there tomorrow who the hell would buy it? Hardcore gamers I'm sure are just frothing at the prospect of talking to a virtual 10-year old. Regular users will most likely be freaked by the whole "uncanny valley" aspect of dealing with this living doll, and a lot of people will simply find the idea of interacting with a virtual child plain creepy and alarming. (Can you imagine the tabloids if its not 100% squeaky clean and "safe" - "Virtual Grooming" simulator here we come.)

@GreyBeard

My point to you is that if you think within the confines of reproducing existing control schemes with new technology you will end up with shovelware.

New technology requires new thinking.Boom Blox could not have been made before the Wiimote expanded control scheme thinking. Natal similarly will expand control scheme thinking and new concepts will emerge.

The existing controller is not going away so traditional controls and traditional/Natal hybrid controls will continue.

Just because you do not have the vision to be able to see past the obvious does not mean that all developers will be similarly limited in vision. No, Natal is not a gimmick. It is as flexible as developers choose to make it.

No, Natal is not a gimmick. It is as flexible as developers choose to make it. No, Natal is not a gimmick. It is as flexible as developers choose to make it.

That's the worrying bit; developers have almost totally failed to capitalise on the Wiimote. Anything more than a graphics bump seems to be outside most games developers comfort zone. Maybe Microsoft can grab some of the Retro studios guys who worked on Metroid with Miyamoto.

"But why would you want to mime shaking hands with a character in a videogame? As opposed to press a "shake hands" button, what advantages does it offer exactly?"

For me it's not so much a discussion about whether motion controls can have a function in games (they obviously can, given Wii's success), it's about whether the new efforts of Sony and MS will have useful applications within the genres so beloved by hardcore gamers.

"Anything more than a graphics bump seems to be outside most games developers comfort zone."

Sad but true.

@Ashen-Shugar

1. I am a professional developer. (with experience on Nintendo, MS, and Sony platforms)

2. You cannot just fob off the issue of handling modal switching of input states, as its intrinsic to the whole design process. A really simple example I've used elsewhere is the entering/exiting pause mode - a neccessity for titles that don't use a turn-based or party-style (short bursts of play) construction. That's the big difference between a game and a tech demo: in the former you cant just drop the feature because its a problem to implement.

3. Its extraordinarily arrogant to simply accuse designers/developers of a lack of ambition/vision without any experience of the development process and its complexities. It's all very well saying, yes doing thing x would be cool, but what happens when implementing that breaks elements y and z. Sorry to disappoint you, but there usually are good reasons why things are done a certain way - it has to be practical.

4. If you think you know better, can do better. Show us (the developer community) that you can walk it like you talk it. Even if its as simple as posting a detailed example on a forum. Apparently great design ideas are cheap, so what do you have to lose?

@GreyBeard


"I am a professional developer."

Oh please, save it for a chatup line.


"You cannot just fob off the issue of handling modal switching of input states"

There's no need to. The existing 360 controller is still around to handle stuff like that, or you could simply have a touch zone for a practice/swing toggle. Not an issue for someone with an ounce of design skill.


"Its extraordinarily arrogant to simply accuse designers/developers of a lack of ambition/vision without any experience of the development process."

It's extroardinarily arrogant to assume that game players cannot obviously see when developers are creatively bankrupt.


"If you think you know better, can do better. Show us"

No, that's apparently your job. You write a game worth buying and I'll buy it. That's how it works.


Look, I get it. You don't have any good ideas on how to use Natal. That's fine, there is still an enormous market for traditionally controlled games, and there will be for the forseeable future.

There will be other, more forward thinking developers out there that really push the technology though, and it's those guys that will be producing the games I'll be looking forward to.

Greybeard everything you stated, every device you stated never made it to production, not one. They used similar tech that was flawed, Natal uses similar but far more advanced tech, its like comparing an old BW TV with a LCD TV of today, similar but more advanced. You need to open your eyes buddy, listen with your ears and have a coke and a smile and STFU.

@Ashen-Shugar

You just don't get it do you? When you reach for the "touch-zone" or the controller what's stopping the camera from interpreting that as a throw? Remember, that camera is always on, always monitoring your movements because that's how it works!.

Like I said, walk it like you talk it. Show me some critical thinking and I'll take your comments seriously.

Because all you've demonstrated in your reply is your ignorance and rudeness.

I said I was a developer to reinforce the fact that my opinion is an informed one, not to gather your approval. The only approval I need comes in my salary invoice at the end of the month, because I'm a professional - not just another ill-informed blowhard trying to score points on the internet.

@Negotiator

Improvements in technology don't help if they aren't fit for purpose. My argument all along has been not that Natal won't work as advertised (the technology is proven), just that what it brings to the table is inherently limited to a select range of applications.

A lot of that limitation is down to the human side of the interface, but that absolutely doesn't mean that those issues aren't real impediments to what can and cannot be done.

The way MS has presented Natal is that its a "better-way" somehow, that it will supercede existing interface methods. My counter- argument is that its too incomplete a solution (no tactile feedback, requires an existing controller or replacement for modal input changes, too reliant on voice recognition, too physically demanding, too reliant on environmental conditions, etc.) to be given that title.

To be fair to Shigeru Miyamoto, his comments were absolutely NOT made in response to Project Natal. They were made in response to a direct question of the interviewer, if he thought that gaming without a controller in your hands is a good idea.
Quote of the question: What do you think of the idea of controlling a game with nothing, no controller, in your hands? Do you think that costs aside that that’s a good idea, or that you do need something physical to hold on to? See the source article.

I would also like to mention that Miyamoto-dono has not said that you can't use Project Natal win conjunction with a controller. He knows as well as we do that that is possible.

In either case, Eurogamer is blowing this up to be a console war/competition thing, when it isn't. It's not an off-hand remark he just made with nobody asking. It's just an honest (and IMO sensible) answer to a direct question about game design.

@GreyBeard

"When you reach for the "touch-zone" or the controller what's stopping the camera from interpreting that as a throw?"

Presumably the developers will be clever enough to differentiate the gesture. In your example, a throw might have a set range of velocities to register to, or will ignore the throw regocnition when you move from the 'throwing zone'. There are plenty of ways to get around the problem if you are willing to put aside your preconceptions.


"Show me some critical thinking and I'll take your comments seriously."

Would you take me seriously if I stuck my head in the sand too, and just repeated over and over 'it wont work, it wont work'?

I've given you some good possible uses and problem solutions and all you have come back with is outdated thinking and a closed mind.

All I can say thankfully there are developers embracing new technologies such as Natal, and I look forward to the innovations in control they will be bringing to the market.

Hadn't responded to this ill constructed gem of 'logic' yet but couldn't pass up on it as these kind of nonsense arguments are made around here all the time...

"Yeah, there's no problem there, nothing creepily obsessive at all.
Thanks for looking out for us poor bastards that got suckered in, we can't make our own decisions.
We obviously need someone who's had shit in their morning frosties to tell us how fucking rubbish everything is ALL THE TIME."

So people are allowed to continuously (and unwittingly in most cases) praise Natal (or any other thing the poster that uses this kind of 'logic' likes) but if in the same thread you argue against the object of affection, all of a sudden you are obsessive, angry, feeling threatened, etc., etc.

It shouldn't take much effort to see that such arguments aren't logically sound but unfortunately you see them all over the place. :(

A proper discussion uses arguments instead of ad hominem.

@Ashen-Shugar

Are you for real? I mean seriously, are you being deliberately obtuse or have you just got no idea how computers and other digital technology works?

Natal can't read your tiny mind you know. All it can do is compare approximate positions of points and volumes in 3d space, and track their motion and angle.

The more constrained you make it in order to mask off unwanted input, the less "free" the motions the player makes have to become in order to register correctly, obviating the whole point of the enterprise in the process.

AND IN ANY CASE, ITS FAR EASIER ON BOTH THE PLAYER AND THE SYSTEM TO SIMPLY POLL A CONTROLLER FOR A BUTTON PRESS. YOU ARE MAKING WHAT SHOULD BE A SIMPLE PROCESS INTO A BYZANTINE SEQUENCE OF PRECISE HAND/ARM GESTURES. THAT IS JUST BAD (GAME) DESIGN.

Try and comprehend the argument before you volunteer your ill-informed opinion.

" they have finally obtained the very basic technology for doing motion control"
lmao this dude is funny.. So he is either too stupid to seperate the things he is talking about or he just hasnt even paid attention ( which we all know ofc he has cause its the reason he is deffending his field the ugly way he does )? You need feedback ? What does Natal have to do with the wand which is a copy of his WiiMotion? Nothing. Some know that already.Natal can be combined with the fucking controller itself ( ill just tal daily in case someone sends him the posts from here to not make a fool of himself next time when he thinks the audience are all ignorant noobs or kiddos ), you can hold on ur penis itself if you want pretending its something like a joypad in a flight simulator or you can hold an actual sword when you wanna play your damn Wii game that u showed at E3.

When it comes to Sony, yeah when all the losers that said YAY SISAXIS etc etc none had the nerve to answer mine or who ever else's posts saying " you dont need controller vibration all of a sudden in ur controller?". Noooo ofc not.. lol Sony is now once again copying nintendo LITERALLY trying to steal some more from that piece of market.

Just deliver to the consumer and gamer and leave the bullshit in all seriousness. Its a matter of time before they make virtual girlfriends with Natal. The 360s will be sold way WAY more in Japan as sad as that sounds. Hmmm.. specially if its with anime art Id guess but i dont watch those things. lol

@GreyBeard

If all developers thought like you then there would be no Eyetoy, no Wii, no iPhone and no Surface technology.

The point is you dont make motion control for things that don't need it, and in Natal's case you use the standard controller for traditional control situations, but you ADD Natal control for things that will enhance the game, there are millions of applications that WILL be enhanced by Natal whether you like it or not, just as games have been enhanced by the Wiimote and will be enhanced by Sony's motion controller.

Please feel free to continue ignoring the salient points of this thread, I can no longer be bothered to discuss the issue with such a closed mind.

AND IN ANY CASE, ITS FAR EASIER ON BOTH THE PLAYER AND THE SYSTEM TO SIMPLY POLL A CONTROLLER FOR A BUTTON PRESS.
Did you have a look at Wii sales figures recently?

I'd like to state again that mr. Miyamoto was not talking down on Project Natal. (We can thank Eurogamer for taking his words out of context... -_-;) He was answering a direct question about Nintendo's own camera control experiments and whether he thought gaming without a controller in your hand is a good idea or not.

Besides, he only said that he thinks that having a controller in your hands would feel better and more interactive. If you do want to apply his words to Project Natal, I think the most you can do is conclude that Shigeru Miyamoto thinks Project Natal would work best if used in conjunction with a controller.

Guys, he has to be the most experienced game designer in the world, with decades of spearheading innovations in both hardware and software. The least you can do is give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he actually thought about this instead of just dismissing him as "stupid"...

In case you hadn't noticed, the Wii controller has buttons. And a dpad. And an attachable analog stick. All sources of modal control with haptic feedback.

Unlike Natal.

The point I've been making all along is that Natal is an incomplete solution. Its not a replacement, its an addition that will in most cases require augmenting with a more conventional control system.

Once again, as the point is apparently too subtle to penetrate the thick skulls of certain respondents, the way MS has presented the Natal is as a revolutionary system that doesn't require conventional controls. This is true for certain (limited) applications, but most games WILL STILL require buttons and sticks like Sony and Nintendo use in their motion-control devices.

The whole "hands-free" thing is just a gimmick. It's good for generating comment and coverage, but from a design possibilities standpoint it offers far less than you'd think. Just being different doesn't cut-it, it has to be better to be a truly revolutionary device. From where I stand on the matter, I just don't see it.

And I'm still yet to hear a convincing counter-argument in Natal's favour. So until I do, my position isnt shifting one iota.

Yossarian +1

Well said, nice to see someone who pays attention to whats already been said and put some proper thought into it instead of all these poorly conceived reasons why it might fail.

Im betting they will have a new controller to go with the next xbox along with Natal as standard(should be cheaper to produce by then so a pack-in natal and controller as standard isnt out of the question, my concern is they dont use the controller tech to skimp on the processing power to be used on the games like Nintendo did), untill then where natal is used for hardcore games it will just be to enhance the experience along with the 360 controller... who would argue with that?

I dont remember seeing any people talk about it here but for the next Xbox maybe they'll release the "wearable mouse" controller(which featured 3 gyroscopes, an accelerometer and a magnetometer for accurate tracking of the position, angle and all the rest) that was found in some of the patents MS filed a year back.

The Patent application form. April 10 2008.
MICROSOFT CORPORATION - Wearable computer pointing device

1. In a computing environment, a system comprising, a pointing device configured for wearing on a user's hand,

2. The system of claim 1 wherein the pointing device is generally U-shaped, and has a first part that fits in the user's palm coupled to a second part that fits behind the user's knuckles.


MS controller prototype

.....Microsoft was researching had the functionality of both the Nintendo Wii Remote and the Nunchuk packed into a single device,
with a shape like a “pistol grip.” On top, it is supposed to have an analog stick (that could be replaced by a trackball) surrounded by the four action buttons.

GreyBeard the problem is nobody needs to convince you of anything here, you've already convinced yourself(good for you, you are entitled to your opinion, I mean you've hardly gone full "Les" with it and preached how everyone is wrong and MS is evil as usual, so I dont have problem with that.) but you are also making out MS has said something they havent... what has been said is Natal wont require any controllers for games and applications built for it(which despite what they say is probably mostly going to be aimed at the casuals similar to what Nintendo tried to do), you've even agreed as much(not without downplaying it slightly but thats neither here nor there).

They also said they arent planning of getting rid of controllers for traditional games/hardcore games which is where most of your concerns are but you dont seem to beable to grasp it.

Natal is no more of a gimmick than Wii has been(which it has turned out to be for hardcore gamers... who have used an accurate pointing device called the mouse for years), if its marketed right and the casual market likes it they will buy plenty of them as we can see from the Wii.