Miyamoto: you need a controller to hold Comments by Tom Bramwell

What we need now is for someone to find J Allard ranting about how you need a stick and four buttons.

Here
Personal favourites
"I don't think most Electronic Arts games are going to be played with that thing" [the Wii remote]

"How am I going to watch a movie on Revolution? Am I going to have a different remote than that or am I going to have to use the four colored buttons?"
LOL!

#Everybody
Needs a controller
To hold#

He is right that physical interaction is a big part, I laughed at the driving on that Natal video. Nowadays even rumble is a must. Poor old Sony knows this, Sixaxis LOL.

/ hugs DS3

I will just hold a bottle of beer then with Natal.

"I will just hold a bottle of beer then with Natal."

LOL, that's what the pause button and online lobbies are for! :)

Ah well, now that the video game press are recovering from their collective hangovers, they slowly but steadily start to pierce through the Natal vapour. In a few months, we'll all laugh about it and next pretend it never happened...

Minor correction: Sony controller doesn't use the EyeToy but rather the PlayStation Eye.

"Ah well, now that the video game press are recovering from their collective hangovers, they slowly but steadily start to pierce through the Natal vapour"

3 years after the Wii they still haven't pierced through the Wiimote so don't get your hopes up.

We've been down this road so often before; It'd be nice if we could rely on EG to report this stuff responsibly but sadly we can't.

HITS > TRUTH

So whilst I agree with what was purportedly said, I can't be sure if he actually said it.

Sorry EG, but you reap as you sow.

But Natal works with a controller if you want.

Plus if you want 'force feedback' so desperately, just hold up a dinner plate as a steering wheel. Hell, you could use that tacky piece of white plastic the Wii uses if you so please.

I think he's wrong, rumble is nice, but not vital to a lot of experiences. A lot of the time it doesn't even make sense in the context of the game (earthquake in game, conttroller starts shaking, poor substitite for a real earthquake imo, it actually feels kinda dumb). It's a nice thing to have with racing and such, but frankly, this just seems like a poor excuse to downplay MS efforts.

I respect Miyamotos views when it comes to games design... He has a knack of knowing what will and will not work. His opinion on motion controls that do know include any physical device are spot on with my own. Without something to hold, give feedback, make a noise etc, the game playing experience will be diluted.

Nintendo got it almost right in the first place. But the initial Wii remote was seriously lacking on some areas,; Not precise enough, not fast enough, no real 3D positioning, etc.

However, they got *many* things right; You need force feedback (speaker&vibration), you need triggers, you need a separate analog stick for the other hand, ...

Sony seems to fix the technical issues Nintendo had, but in the other hand forgets all the essential components Nintendo got right in the first place.

Microsoft seem to be the ones behind from my point of view (just started with motion controls, at least Sony had Sixaxis and PSeye). I understand people getting excited about the Natal, but I honestly feel they aren't aware of the big mountain to climb.

I tend to agree. Even if it has no buttons whatsoever, holding SOMETHING which you can expect to accurately represent your actions in the game world is necessary.

My prediction is Natal will feel floaty and imprecise for anything but single actions. How big does my imaginary steering wheel have to be? If I make it smaller on the fly does that make the turning sharper? How small or big before the game doesn't recognise it? What if I turn sideways slightly? What if I'm laying down?

I predict it'll only really work well where the player making any motion = 1 action. I.e the Wiimote and waggle in its current form. So quiz games where you do 'something' to buzz, simple up-down-left-right gestures (think Red Steel swordfighting).

The only benefit is you won't need more than one for more players (if it recognising multiple people works.) But then I bet this won't retail for less than £90 with some comedy EyeToy minigame-fest packed in to help justify the price.

@Yossarian, yes of course Natal would work with a controller, but then whats the point of having natal.. MS is basically pushing this as a "No need for a controller" device. As Speilberg said the reason for Natal is that many people have trouble with a controller (not my 7 year old son, how difficult can it be). Now you wait until the device doesnt read everyones hand movements or doesnt work in certain conditions, that will really peeve people off when all they are trying to do is move around in the XMB.

If you end up paying money for something that is supposed to remove the controller and end up using a controller, then fool on them. :D

I dont believe the hype, I also dont think the Wii remote is that bad, actually the Wii's failing is actually having crappy graphics/low spec on the rails games... which didnt take full use of the controller.. imho.

For a company that is 'not bothered', they are awfully keen on time after time again pointing out that this won't work.

Don't use it then.
It's really not hard. If you don't want Natal, you really don't have to buy it.
No-one is going to come round and take your controller away, so stop crying.

The point about Natal is you can shovel controller-less minigames and non-games if you want -- and no doubt they will -- but you can also combine it with existing controllers (or new controllers) to give new experiences the Wiimote can't give you.

So if you're playing a racing game, you could use a regular controller to steer and accelerate, but use Natal to e.g. look around the cockpit and glance at the wing mirrors. Or you play a FPS with a regular controller, but use Natal to lean around corners, to crouch by ducking in your chair, etc.

That's where it actually gets interesting to me. Otherwise it's just another shoddy motion device (the only good think about Wii controls is the pointer, imo) and no thank you.

"Don't use it then.
It's really not hard. If you don't want Natal, you really don't have to buy it.
No-one is going to come round and take your controller away, so stop crying."

It's a little bit more complex than that. If enough people start to buy Natals (like they do with the Wii) in time development resources will shift from traditional controller games to the motion sensing games. So even if you don't buy a Natal it might still affect the games you want to play.

I see more uses with natal than just wacking a ball around the screen. It's 3D positioning could generate a whole lot of other stuff after the initial waggle phase.

You say you want something to hold and force feedback? Easily remedied by MS releasing Natal branded props. They're not controllers as such but representations of what your in game character may be holding and sure, why not, they vibrate! Or how about force feed back gloves?

Cool, bring it on. I'm all for motion controlled games if they make them interesting.
I play most of my games on the PC, having something completely different on consoles to differentiate the two is a good thing.

You seem very scared Les, what's the problem?

Yossarian: I like your ideas.

I too really see some potential in the device. People are trying to make faults in the device without seeing it. I don't understand that outlook. It was demonstrated at their conference remarkably well, the people using it were far away from the device, had no solid background behind them with lights all over the place and it still detected them perfectly. Adding it into a game alongside a controller has a multitude of possibilities as Yossarian says.

Why count it out at this point? It has the potential to open up a realm of new ideas in games, which can only be a good thing. And if you are skeptical, at least be critical with the hope that you will be proven wrong and it could be great. I don't know, internet.

The way I see it, is that not needing a controller is no restriction as there is nothing stopping the developers of Natal or EyeToy games allowing you to have a controller in your hand at the same time. The restriction is actually on the systems such as on the Wii and Sony's Motion Controller, which force you to have a controller.

Surely an exercise game such as Wii Fit or EA's Active (or what ever it is called) would be better without holding a controller? How often do you hold something in your hand whilst doing exercise? Also at any point in a game, if a controller would give better feedback to the user, they could pick one up (if the developer choose to allow for it).

Actually the feedback thing is a good point I'd not considered as I actually find effective use of rumble effects from the controller a great way of immersing me in a game. One of the things I disliked the most about the PS3 when it launched was its rumbleless SIXAXIS controller so I was jumping up and down for joy when the DualShock 3 was announced.

Thinking about it I'm not sure I could really play games without a controller but as an interface Natal would definitely have its uses. I guess that means that I would not like to see Natal totally replace the controller but rather supplement it in some way.

@Xerx3s:
+1K

@MyPointIs:
Microsoft was ahead from both of them in motion controllers. Google "Microsoft SideWinder Freestyle Pro" for more information. I guess your point is not exactly valid :)

It's a nice thing to have with racing and such, but frankly, this just seems like a poor excuse to downplay MS efforts.

Then again, lack of rumble used to be a big issue before Sony's DS3 ;)

And it's not only rumble. I cannot see at the moment, how flicking your foot into thin air will convince you that you hit a ball in, say, FIFA. Unlike with something as simple and easy to understand as a button, there is no counter-force to map the 'life experience' (of hitting something with a certain strength). Same goes for shooters. No trigger you have to pull back against a certain resistance, no recoil. All thin air.

The only scenario I could see this working in is a combined setting (as Yossarian pointed out). Controller for steering/shooting/feedback, Natal for head movement. That could be really awesome. But the dilemma is, that they've already hyped this out of the park as a self-containing device ('no more barriers', 'you are the controller', 'your life experience is enough', 'as big as 360 launch', 'leap-frogging the competition'), so basically, they can't really turn back or tone it down. They can't just simply add a controller either (for compensating for the lack of feedback), because that would mean they basically hyped a Wiimote rip-off all along.

@Yossarian

"The point about Natal is you can shovel controller-less minigames and non-games if you want -- and no doubt they will -- but you can also combine it with existing controllers (or new controllers) to give new experiences the Wiimote can't give you."

This is what is turning me around to the idea of Natal. At first all I could think of was the horrible shovelware flood. I already have a Wii and find it a chore to sift the gems from the gallons of slurry, but then the proper uses of Natal start to register:

For example, playing an RGP using the standard controller to move around and fight and whatnot, then you bring up the equipment, stat, quest menus and you use Natal there, because it's a logical use of a pointing/positional device.

Think of a flight sim or space combat game where you hold the standard 360 controller but upright like a flight yoke, and other switches and sliders are displayed on screen and you just reach out with a free hand and move/switch them. Imagine how trouser tentingly good an X-wing game would be with those controls!

Like the mentioned FPS headtracking idea, these uses do not involve standing up and loking like a tard, no waggle gestures are involved, it's just a logical and natural extension of the exisitng controlller.

The best way to think of Natal, and the direction it will undoubtedly be taken in, is that of the minority report style virtual touch surface. MS are pushing their surface technology and Natal is simply a way of doing multitouch surface without the physical surface.

@JonFE
Well Microsoft is a huge corporation. I bet they also make breakfast cereals. But I doubt very much people behind the sidewinder actually got to talk to anyone on the Xbox division ;)

"You seem very scared Les, what's the problem?"

Scared?! Me!? Why?

Genuine question:
Do all mini games / exercises in Wii Fit use the Wiimote as well?

Sony's wands seem like the best of all worlds to me.
It has the physical wand, the motion sighting of the Eyetoy and some actual hardware behind it to make some impressive games.

I still have little interest in all this motion sensing stuff, but of the 3, the PS3 seems the most interesting.

"Genuine question:
Do all mini games / exercises in Wii Fit use the Wiimote as well?"

Genuine answer:
No

;)

Scared?! Me!? Why?

Glad you asked. Here's a few choice quotes from any Natal thread:

Ah well, now that the video game press are recovering from their collective hangovers, they slowly but steadily start to pierce through the Natal vapour. In a few months, we'll all laugh about it and next pretend it never happened...

in time development resources will shift from traditional controller games to the motion sensing games. So even if you don't buy a Natal it might still affect the games you want to play.

I'm pretty sure that Natal's roots were in the Windows devision. MS people saw Minority Report, first thought "That is cool" and then thought "how can we replicate this for Windows?". Problem is that the only thing that matters in a movie is whether it looks cool. Little thought is given to practical implications.

Not really as it's all just words and no substance. The guy was clearly there to sell the 3DV stuff. And it worked as MS bought them. Only real playtime will tell us something worthwhile about Natal.

The ridiculous and obviously not working 3D break-out 'game', a useless paint program and a shaky burnout demos you mean?!

Well that tells us pretty much nothing...

Controllers are indeed a barrier. But Natan is a controller. An optical one, but still a controller. And therefore in most cases as much a barrier as a regular controller and in other cases even more. Until they've developed a device that can read our minds, MS should have just bitten the bullet and gone with a Wii-mote rip-off. Might not be classy but it would be a better solution and screw what the fanboys think.

The only proper response to this PR bullshit is LOL

That's just a little slice of the negativity. I could get more if you like?
You've obviously got a HUGE Natal shaped chip on your shoulder, what's the deal?

@MyPointIs:
Well, my point is that Microsoft have had experience with motion controllers in the past (which is a well-known fact that contradicts your "just started with motion controls" statement) and whether or not the sidewinder people have talked to the xbox people (as you put it) their test results have been certainly available to the later. So, I seriously doubt that, once Microsoft realized they had to come up with something competing to the Wii motion controls, nobody remembered and checked out their own previous experiments.

EDIT:
@Ashen-Shugar:
Thanks!
I wonder how does that cope with Shigeru Miyamoto's claims?

@Rodchenko

Oh, I agree. But needing force feedback in your controller seems to be missing the point of Natal having way more possibilites involving the 360 controller. Like Yosarian said. Just seems that Miyamoto really has a one track waggle mind when it comes to stuff like this. I would freaking love combined uses of this and traditional controls. Just seems really shortsighted for such a visionary.

@menage

earthquake in game, conttroller starts shaking, poor substitite for a real earthquake imo, it actually feels kinda dumb

Weirdo... I'd prefer my controller to vibrate than the walls of my house to come falling down around me. Rumble is the closest substitute to an earthquake I would like ta very much.
I've never had a problem with rumble and actually miss it cos I've got the sixaxis :-(

@M_of_the_sys

You're the weirdo. Buy a DS3 then.

I'm not saying I want my house to cave in:D

Just saying a rumbling controller in your hand doesn't match the onscreen action 90% of the time. Explosion = rumble, driving = rumble, whacking a mole = same rumble. It's still just the controler shaking, nothing else. Doesn't give me the feeling of being there that much more. It's nice, but I played 100s of games without, enjoyed them all the same. I'm not saying I don't like it to be incorporated, but it's no where near essential to a game. I guided mario and zelda through dozens of levels without

"You've obviously got a HUGE Natal shaped chip on your shoulder, what's the deal?"

I'm a sceptic and I just point(ed) out the ridiculousness of the E3 Natal hype. That /= being scared.

Most certainly traditional games require additional controller. But for pointing things this is the future, I'm sure you will be able to use console menus and do browsing without controllers if you have Natal, and I believe it will feels very natural.

One of the biggest limitations is that there cannot be many big (large budget) games which require Natal, and making games playable with normal controller limits design a lot. It's more or less prototype for next generation console in which it's bundled. Maybe biggest potential is for XBLA.

Controlling a view with head movement will cause serious motion sickness?

"Just saying a rumbling controller in your hand doesn't match the onscreen action 90% of the time. Explosion = rumble, driving = rumble, whacking a mole = same rumble. It's still just the controler shaking, nothing else. Doesn't give me the feeling of being there that much more. It's nice, but I played 100s of games without, enjoyed them all the same."

+1. Rumble is rather ridiculous. Though it did lead to a great scene in MGS. ;)

"I'm a sceptic and I just point(ed) out the ridiculousness of the E3 Natal hype. That /= being scared. "

There's being a sceptic and there's banging ON AND ON about how doomed the whole project is in EVERY thread where it's mentioned.

We get it, you feel threatened for some reason and you don't like Natal.

Not everyone has an imagination and looks forward to something different, and that's cool, if a little sad.
The rest of us can't wait to see what they come up with for Natal, the wand and M+

@menage

I'd buy a DS3 if they weren't so expensive.
I agree that they're not essential to a game but I they are preferable. I've certainly got by without rumble for over a year now but I'll admit it did take some getting used to. Even down to the small rumble in GTA when you drive slightly onto the pavement. It does add a sense of interactivity to a game.

All motion controls will appeal to different audiences and definitely depend on what kind of games they bring. I agree with the people saying that Sony's wand will be more suitable for games other than of the casual persuasion but the idea of the whole Minority Report type interface is just too cool.

Not a motion control type person myself though. I'll stick to to traditional input methods.

wait - what experience with motion controls?
you mean like "to attack wave back and forth the controller" kind of stuff?
does it take years to learn how to implement waggling?

let's see what you do with this motion plus thingie, and then let's sit and discuss about your learning experiences with motion control, eh?

He would say that, the fact is Microsoft are so ahead of Nintendo and Sony with this technology its funny, but not for them. Oh, you need a crappy controller to wave around, which is so much better than using your whole body, Miyamoto you nob head.

Re: Natal.

Surely the point is you can hold anything?

@Negotiator

Technology isn't the issue, its the application of that technology. And the unpalatable truth is Natal has relatively few useful applications, which is why despite the tech being actually pretty old its never come to prominence before now.

And lol at dismissing what Miyamoto has to say. Really, you know better than inarguably the worlds most famous and successful game designer?

"Not everyone has an imagination and looks forward to something different, and that's cool, if a little sad."

There is nothing wrong with my imagination. Don't see what that has to do with not buying hype TBH. And the link with feeling threatened is rather weak as well.

"Not buying hype" = 300 defensive posts every single time it gets mentioned.

Yeah, there's no problem there, nothing creepily obsessive at all.
Thanks for looking out for us poor bastards that got suckered in, we can't make our own decisions.
We obviously need someone who's had shit in their morning frosties to tell us how fucking rubbish everything is ALL THE TIME.

""Not buying hype" = 300 defensive posts every single time it gets mentioned."

I'd rather say they were offensive posts...