Miyamoto: you need a controller to hold

By Tom Bramwell Published 16 June, 2009

Provides vital force feedback, says dev.

Shigeru Miyamoto had already claimed in one E3 interview that Nintendo's years of experience with Wii give it the edge on motion control, but it turns out he also told Wired that he believes a physical controller is still vital.

"As someone who thinks of things from the perspective of creating interactive experiences, I really think that you do need something," he said.

"I don't think as a creator that I could create an experience that truly feels interactive if you don't have something to hold in your hand, if you don't have something like force feedback that you can feel from the controller."

That's obviously in response to Microsoft's Project Natal, which employs cunning custom hardware to measure your movements and recognise your voice without the need for a pad or wand.

Sony also announced a motion control system at E3, which uses EyeToy in combination with a pair of wands with lights on to register gesture movement, and Miyamoto implied that this was because Sony, like Nintendo, believed force feedback was necessary.

He also made a similar point to the one he made with the BBC: "Looking at what the other companies have shown here at E3, it feels like they have finally obtained the very basic technology for doing motion control, but perhaps they still have to learn how to use that and take advantage of it in an interactive experience."

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (79) Latest comment 3 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Tonka #1 3 years ago

    What we need now is for someone to find J Allard ranting about how you need a stick and four buttons.

    Here
    Personal favourites
    "I don't think most Electronic Arts games are going to be played with that thing" [the Wii remote]

    "How am I going to watch a movie on Revolution? Am I going to have a different remote than that or am I going to have to use the four colored buttons?"
    LOL!
    Edited by 1 at 16/06/09 @ 08:34

  • neilka #2 3 years ago

    #Everybody
    Needs a controller
    To hold#

  • bad09 #3 3 years ago

    He is right that physical interaction is a big part, I laughed at the driving on that Natal video. Nowadays even rumble is a must. Poor old Sony knows this, Sixaxis LOL.

    / hugs DS3

  • Dizzy #4 3 years ago

    I will just hold a bottle of beer then with Natal.

  • bad09 #5 3 years ago

    "I will just hold a bottle of beer then with Natal."

    LOL, that's what the pause button and online lobbies are for! :)

  • Les #6 3 years ago

    Ah well, now that the video game press are recovering from their collective hangovers, they slowly but steadily start to pierce through the Natal vapour. In a few months, we'll all laugh about it and next pretend it never happened...

  • TTP #7 3 years ago

    Minor correction: Sony controller doesn't use the EyeToy but rather the PlayStation Eye.

  • Dizzy #8 3 years ago

    "Ah well, now that the video game press are recovering from their collective hangovers, they slowly but steadily start to pierce through the Natal vapour"

    3 years after the Wii they still haven't pierced through the Wiimote so don't get your hopes up.

  • Octoroc #9 3 years ago

    We've been down this road so often before; It'd be nice if we could rely on EG to report this stuff responsibly but sadly we can't.

    HITS > TRUTH

    So whilst I agree with what was purportedly said, I can't be sure if he actually said it.

    Sorry EG, but you reap as you sow.

  • Yossarian #10 3 years ago

    But Natal works with a controller if you want.

    Plus if you want 'force feedback' so desperately, just hold up a dinner plate as a steering wheel. Hell, you could use that tacky piece of white plastic the Wii uses if you so please.

  • menage #11 3 years ago

    I think he's wrong, rumble is nice, but not vital to a lot of experiences. A lot of the time it doesn't even make sense in the context of the game (earthquake in game, conttroller starts shaking, poor substitite for a real earthquake imo, it actually feels kinda dumb). It's a nice thing to have with racing and such, but frankly, this just seems like a poor excuse to downplay MS efforts.

  • JohnnyWashnGo #12 3 years ago

    I respect Miyamotos views when it comes to games design... He has a knack of knowing what will and will not work. His opinion on motion controls that do know include any physical device are spot on with my own. Without something to hold, give feedback, make a noise etc, the game playing experience will be diluted.

  • MyPointIs #13 3 years ago

    Nintendo got it almost right in the first place. But the initial Wii remote was seriously lacking on some areas,; Not precise enough, not fast enough, no real 3D positioning, etc.

    However, they got *many* things right; You need force feedback (speaker&vibration), you need triggers, you need a separate analog stick for the other hand, ...

    Sony seems to fix the technical issues Nintendo had, but in the other hand forgets all the essential components Nintendo got right in the first place.

    Microsoft seem to be the ones behind from my point of view (just started with motion controls, at least Sony had Sixaxis and PSeye). I understand people getting excited about the Natal, but I honestly feel they aren't aware of the big mountain to climb.

  • LazyDan #14 3 years ago

    I tend to agree. Even if it has no buttons whatsoever, holding SOMETHING which you can expect to accurately represent your actions in the game world is necessary.

    My prediction is Natal will feel floaty and imprecise for anything but single actions. How big does my imaginary steering wheel have to be? If I make it smaller on the fly does that make the turning sharper? How small or big before the game doesn't recognise it? What if I turn sideways slightly? What if I'm laying down?

    I predict it'll only really work well where the player making any motion = 1 action. I.e the Wiimote and waggle in its current form. So quiz games where you do 'something' to buzz, simple up-down-left-right gestures (think Red Steel swordfighting).

    The only benefit is you won't need more than one for more players (if it recognising multiple people works.) But then I bet this won't retail for less than £90 with some comedy EyeToy minigame-fest packed in to help justify the price.

  • makeamazing #15 3 years ago

    @Yossarian, yes of course Natal would work with a controller, but then whats the point of having natal.. MS is basically pushing this as a "No need for a controller" device. As Speilberg said the reason for Natal is that many people have trouble with a controller (not my 7 year old son, how difficult can it be). Now you wait until the device doesnt read everyones hand movements or doesnt work in certain conditions, that will really peeve people off when all they are trying to do is move around in the XMB.

    If you end up paying money for something that is supposed to remove the controller and end up using a controller, then fool on them. :D

    I dont believe the hype, I also dont think the Wii remote is that bad, actually the Wii's failing is actually having crappy graphics/low spec on the rails games... which didnt take full use of the controller.. imho.

  • Xerx3s #16 3 years ago

    For a company that is 'not bothered', they are awfully keen on time after time again pointing out that this won't work.
    Edited by 1 at 16/06/09 @ 09:07

  • Wastelander #17 3 years ago

    Don't use it then.
    It's really not hard. If you don't want Natal, you really don't have to buy it.
    No-one is going to come round and take your controller away, so stop crying.

  • Yossarian #18 3 years ago

    The point about Natal is you can shovel controller-less minigames and non-games if you want -- and no doubt they will -- but you can also combine it with existing controllers (or new controllers) to give new experiences the Wiimote can't give you.

    So if you're playing a racing game, you could use a regular controller to steer and accelerate, but use Natal to e.g. look around the cockpit and glance at the wing mirrors. Or you play a FPS with a regular controller, but use Natal to lean around corners, to crouch by ducking in your chair, etc.

    That's where it actually gets interesting to me. Otherwise it's just another shoddy motion device (the only good think about Wii controls is the pointer, imo) and no thank you.

  • Les #19 3 years ago

    "Don't use it then.
    It's really not hard. If you don't want Natal, you really don't have to buy it.
    No-one is going to come round and take your controller away, so stop crying."

    It's a little bit more complex than that. If enough people start to buy Natals (like they do with the Wii) in time development resources will shift from traditional controller games to the motion sensing games. So even if you don't buy a Natal it might still affect the games you want to play.

  • menage #20 3 years ago

    I see more uses with natal than just wacking a ball around the screen. It's 3D positioning could generate a whole lot of other stuff after the initial waggle phase.

  • Saint_of_Killers #21 3 years ago

    You say you want something to hold and force feedback? Easily remedied by MS releasing Natal branded props. They're not controllers as such but representations of what your in game character may be holding and sure, why not, they vibrate! Or how about force feed back gloves?

  • Wastelander #22 3 years ago

    Cool, bring it on. I'm all for motion controlled games if they make them interesting.
    I play most of my games on the PC, having something completely different on consoles to differentiate the two is a good thing.

    You seem very scared Les, what's the problem?

  • Nodebug #23 3 years ago

    Yossarian: I like your ideas.

    I too really see some potential in the device. People are trying to make faults in the device without seeing it. I don't understand that outlook. It was demonstrated at their conference remarkably well, the people using it were far away from the device, had no solid background behind them with lights all over the place and it still detected them perfectly. Adding it into a game alongside a controller has a multitude of possibilities as Yossarian says.

    Why count it out at this point? It has the potential to open up a realm of new ideas in games, which can only be a good thing. And if you are skeptical, at least be critical with the hope that you will be proven wrong and it could be great. I don't know, internet.

  • FireMonkey #24 3 years ago

    The way I see it, is that not needing a controller is no restriction as there is nothing stopping the developers of Natal or EyeToy games allowing you to have a controller in your hand at the same time. The restriction is actually on the systems such as on the Wii and Sony's Motion Controller, which force you to have a controller.

    Surely an exercise game such as Wii Fit or EA's Active (or what ever it is called) would be better without holding a controller? How often do you hold something in your hand whilst doing exercise? Also at any point in a game, if a controller would give better feedback to the user, they could pick one up (if the developer choose to allow for it).
    Edited by 1 at 16/06/09 @ 09:29

  • Darren #25 3 years ago

    Actually the feedback thing is a good point I'd not considered as I actually find effective use of rumble effects from the controller a great way of immersing me in a game. One of the things I disliked the most about the PS3 when it launched was its rumbleless SIXAXIS controller so I was jumping up and down for joy when the DualShock 3 was announced.

    Thinking about it I'm not sure I could really play games without a controller but as an interface Natal would definitely have its uses. I guess that means that I would not like to see Natal totally replace the controller but rather supplement it in some way.

  • JonFE #26 3 years ago

    @Xerx3s:
    +1K

    @MyPointIs:
    Microsoft was ahead from both of them in motion controllers. Google "Microsoft SideWinder Freestyle Pro" for more information. I guess your point is not exactly valid :)

    Edited by 1 at 16/06/09 @ 09:31

  • Rodchenko #27 3 years ago

    It's a nice thing to have with racing and such, but frankly, this just seems like a poor excuse to downplay MS efforts.

    Then again, lack of rumble used to be a big issue before Sony's DS3 ;)

    And it's not only rumble. I cannot see at the moment, how flicking your foot into thin air will convince you that you hit a ball in, say, FIFA. Unlike with something as simple and easy to understand as a button, there is no counter-force to map the 'life experience' (of hitting something with a certain strength). Same goes for shooters. No trigger you have to pull back against a certain resistance, no recoil. All thin air.

    The only scenario I could see this working in is a combined setting (as Yossarian pointed out). Controller for steering/shooting/feedback, Natal for head movement. That could be really awesome. But the dilemma is, that they've already hyped this out of the park as a self-containing device ('no more barriers', 'you are the controller', 'your life experience is enough', 'as big as 360 launch', 'leap-frogging the competition'), so basically, they can't really turn back or tone it down. They can't just simply add a controller either (for compensating for the lack of feedback), because that would mean they basically hyped a Wiimote rip-off all along.

  • MyPointIs #28 3 years ago

    @JonFE
    Well Microsoft is a huge corporation. I bet they also make breakfast cereals. But I doubt very much people behind the sidewinder actually got to talk to anyone on the Xbox division ;)

  • Les #29 3 years ago

    "You seem very scared Les, what's the problem?"

    Scared?! Me!? Why?

  • JonFE #30 3 years ago

    Genuine question:
    Do all mini games / exercises in Wii Fit use the Wiimote as well?

  • Raziel #31 3 years ago

    Sony's wands seem like the best of all worlds to me.
    It has the physical wand, the motion sighting of the Eyetoy and some actual hardware behind it to make some impressive games.

    I still have little interest in all this motion sensing stuff, but of the 3, the PS3 seems the most interesting.

  • Wastelander #32 3 years ago

    Scared?! Me!? Why?

    Glad you asked. Here's a few choice quotes from any Natal thread:

    Ah well, now that the video game press are recovering from their collective hangovers, they slowly but steadily start to pierce through the Natal vapour. In a few months, we'll all laugh about it and next pretend it never happened...

    in time development resources will shift from traditional controller games to the motion sensing games. So even if you don't buy a Natal it might still affect the games you want to play.

    I'm pretty sure that Natal's roots were in the Windows devision. MS people saw Minority Report, first thought "That is cool" and then thought "how can we replicate this for Windows?". Problem is that the only thing that matters in a movie is whether it looks cool. Little thought is given to practical implications.

    Not really as it's all just words and no substance. The guy was clearly there to sell the 3DV stuff. And it worked as MS bought them. Only real playtime will tell us something worthwhile about Natal.

    The ridiculous and obviously not working 3D break-out 'game', a useless paint program and a shaky burnout demos you mean?!

    Well that tells us pretty much nothing...

    Controllers are indeed a barrier. But Natan is a controller. An optical one, but still a controller. And therefore in most cases as much a barrier as a regular controller and in other cases even more. Until they've developed a device that can read our minds, MS should have just bitten the bullet and gone with a Wii-mote rip-off. Might not be classy but it would be a better solution and screw what the fanboys think.

    The only proper response to this PR bullshit is LOL

    That's just a little slice of the negativity. I could get more if you like?
    You've obviously got a HUGE Natal shaped chip on your shoulder, what's the deal?



  • JonFE #33 3 years ago

    @MyPointIs:
    Well, my point is that Microsoft have had experience with motion controllers in the past (which is a well-known fact that contradicts your "just started with motion controls" statement) and whether or not the sidewinder people have talked to the xbox people (as you put it) their test results have been certainly available to the later. So, I seriously doubt that, once Microsoft realized they had to come up with something competing to the Wii motion controls, nobody remembered and checked out their own previous experiments.

    EDIT:
    @Ashen-Shugar:
    Thanks!
    I wonder how does that cope with Shigeru Miyamoto's claims?
    Edited by 1 at 16/06/09 @ 09:55

  • menage #34 3 years ago

    @Rodchenko

    Oh, I agree. But needing force feedback in your controller seems to be missing the point of Natal having way more possibilites involving the 360 controller. Like Yosarian said. Just seems that Miyamoto really has a one track waggle mind when it comes to stuff like this. I would freaking love combined uses of this and traditional controls. Just seems really shortsighted for such a visionary.

  • M_of_the_sys #35 3 years ago

    @menage

    earthquake in game, conttroller starts shaking, poor substitite for a real earthquake imo, it actually feels kinda dumb

    Weirdo... I'd prefer my controller to vibrate than the walls of my house to come falling down around me. Rumble is the closest substitute to an earthquake I would like ta very much.
    I've never had a problem with rumble and actually miss it cos I've got the sixaxis :-(

  • menage #36 3 years ago

    @M_of_the_sys

    You're the weirdo. Buy a DS3 then.

    I'm not saying I want my house to cave in:D

    Just saying a rumbling controller in your hand doesn't match the onscreen action 90% of the time. Explosion = rumble, driving = rumble, whacking a mole = same rumble. It's still just the controler shaking, nothing else. Doesn't give me the feeling of being there that much more. It's nice, but I played 100s of games without, enjoyed them all the same. I'm not saying I don't like it to be incorporated, but it's no where near essential to a game. I guided mario and zelda through dozens of levels without
    Edited by 1 at 16/06/09 @ 10:19

  • Les #37 3 years ago

    "You've obviously got a HUGE Natal shaped chip on your shoulder, what's the deal?"

    I'm a sceptic and I just point(ed) out the ridiculousness of the E3 Natal hype. That /= being scared.

  • Nabokov #38 3 years ago

    Most certainly traditional games require additional controller. But for pointing things this is the future, I'm sure you will be able to use console menus and do browsing without controllers if you have Natal, and I believe it will feels very natural.

    One of the biggest limitations is that there cannot be many big (large budget) games which require Natal, and making games playable with normal controller limits design a lot. It's more or less prototype for next generation console in which it's bundled. Maybe biggest potential is for XBLA.

    Controlling a view with head movement will cause serious motion sickness?

  • Les #39 3 years ago

    "Just saying a rumbling controller in your hand doesn't match the onscreen action 90% of the time. Explosion = rumble, driving = rumble, whacking a mole = same rumble. It's still just the controler shaking, nothing else. Doesn't give me the feeling of being there that much more. It's nice, but I played 100s of games without, enjoyed them all the same."

    +1. Rumble is rather ridiculous. Though it did lead to a great scene in MGS. ;)

  • Wastelander #40 3 years ago

    "I'm a sceptic and I just point(ed) out the ridiculousness of the E3 Natal hype. That /= being scared. "

    There's being a sceptic and there's banging ON AND ON about how doomed the whole project is in EVERY thread where it's mentioned.

    We get it, you feel threatened for some reason and you don't like Natal.

    Not everyone has an imagination and looks forward to something different, and that's cool, if a little sad.
    The rest of us can't wait to see what they come up with for Natal, the wand and M+

  • M_of_the_sys #41 3 years ago

    @menage

    I'd buy a DS3 if they weren't so expensive.
    I agree that they're not essential to a game but I they are preferable. I've certainly got by without rumble for over a year now but I'll admit it did take some getting used to. Even down to the small rumble in GTA when you drive slightly onto the pavement. It does add a sense of interactivity to a game.

    All motion controls will appeal to different audiences and definitely depend on what kind of games they bring. I agree with the people saying that Sony's wand will be more suitable for games other than of the casual persuasion but the idea of the whole Minority Report type interface is just too cool.

    Not a motion control type person myself though. I'll stick to to traditional input methods.

  • raion #42 3 years ago

    wait - what experience with motion controls?
    you mean like "to attack wave back and forth the controller" kind of stuff?
    does it take years to learn how to implement waggling?

    let's see what you do with this motion plus thingie, and then let's sit and discuss about your learning experiences with motion control, eh?

  • Negotiator #43 3 years ago

    He would say that, the fact is Microsoft are so ahead of Nintendo and Sony with this technology its funny, but not for them. Oh, you need a crappy controller to wave around, which is so much better than using your whole body, Miyamoto you nob head.

  • jack_klugman #44 3 years ago

    Re: Natal.

    Surely the point is you can hold anything?

  • GreyBeard #45 3 years ago

    @Negotiator

    Technology isn't the issue, its the application of that technology. And the unpalatable truth is Natal has relatively few useful applications, which is why despite the tech being actually pretty old its never come to prominence before now.

    And lol at dismissing what Miyamoto has to say. Really, you know better than inarguably the worlds most famous and successful game designer?

  • Les #46 3 years ago

    "Not everyone has an imagination and looks forward to something different, and that's cool, if a little sad."

    There is nothing wrong with my imagination. Don't see what that has to do with not buying hype TBH. And the link with feeling threatened is rather weak as well.

  • Wastelander #47 3 years ago

    "Not buying hype" = 300 defensive posts every single time it gets mentioned.

    Yeah, there's no problem there, nothing creepily obsessive at all.
    Thanks for looking out for us poor bastards that got suckered in, we can't make our own decisions.
    We obviously need someone who's had shit in their morning frosties to tell us how fucking rubbish everything is ALL THE TIME.

  • Les #48 3 years ago

    ""Not buying hype" = 300 defensive posts every single time it gets mentioned."

    I'd rather say they were offensive posts...

  • Negotiator #49 3 years ago

    Technology isn't the issue, its the application of that technology. And the unpalatable truth is Natal has relatively few useful applications, which is why despite the tech being actually pretty old its never come to prominence before now.

    Greybeard what are you talking about, old tech, are you a moron, oh wait you are. A full 3D motion control camera with face and voice recognition, yeah old tech my ass. Do me a favour and stick your head back up Miyamoto's ass, because I think you like it there.

  • Steroyd #50 3 years ago

    Yossarian: So if you're playing a racing game, you could use a regular controller to steer and accelerate, but use Natal to e.g. look around the cockpit and glance at the wing mirrors. Or you play a FPS with a regular controller, but use Natal to lean around corners, to crouch by ducking in your chair, etc.

    Isn't that possible with the current Xbox camera?

    Plus that all relies on the sensitivity of the camera, say you scratch your nose while in cockpit view in Forza, and the game mistakes that for a look left, or any slight head movement registers in the same way, meaning you'd need to have a stiff neck all race, plus relying on other people not getting in the camera's view while playing.

    Also all these types of movements you could probably get a quicker more efficient response just pressing a button.

    And if you do have to hold a controller while playing a game l it just re-inforces Miyamoto's point, if Micorosoft never went on about being controllerless Miyamoto wouldn't have said what he said.
    Edited by 1 at 16/06/09 @ 12:44

  • SEVQA #51 3 years ago

    I agree as this all augmented reality gaming and therefore omitting rumble is taking a step backward as it was with the Sixaxis when that was released.

  • Spekingur #52 3 years ago

    @Greybeard: And lol at dismissing what Miyamoto has to say. Really, you know better than inarguably the worlds most famous and successful game designer?

    So "famous and successful" game designers can't be wrong? Molyneux is also quite famous and successful as a game designer.

  • menage #53 3 years ago

    Sometimes you need to take a step back to take a leap forward imo. Rumble is something that can be easely omitted if you've gor a better alternative, cause you really don't need it to play a game at all. Same with clinging to a controller. Hell, some people still swear to a keyboard and mouse, where's the rumble in that?

    i like my 360/PS3 pads as much as the next one, That doesn't mean there aren't going to be huge leaps elsewhere in the future. be it on PS3/360/Wii,/PC

    Edited by 1 at 16/06/09 @ 12:54

  • GreyBeard #54 3 years ago

    @Negotiator

    [link url=http://stanford-online.stanford.edu/course s/ee380/040121-ee380-100.asx
    ]http://st anford-online.stanford.edu/cour...[/link]

    Go to 58 minutes and watch as pretty much everything that MS showed with Natal is demonstrated running on a PS2 attached to a 3DV Zcam in 2004.

    History of the tech (wikipedia):

    [link url=http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ZCam
    ]http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ZCam
    [/link]

    Other applications of camera based tech:

    http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=TvDWleKmhYs (EU release Oct this year)

    And of course:

    http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=YZvxIjdyyII (EU release "holidays" 09)


    And last, but not least, lest we get into a discussion on the merits and demerits of speech recognition, here's the wikipedia article on the subject as a primer:

    [link url=http: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_recognition
    ]http://en .wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_reco...[/link]

    I await your rebuttal.


  • Rubarack #55 3 years ago

    It's kind of dumb of them to say "you need force feedback" when it is so blatantly missing from their own interpretation of motion controls. The pathetic buzzing the wiimote makes is just about enough to be annoying, but nowhere near enough to offer a tactile sense of feedback.

  • Gaol #56 3 years ago

    I don't think Miyamoto's comment has anything to do with rumble. He's talking about the immediate physical feedback you get from the act of pushing a button etc. And he's right.

  • SEVQA #57 3 years ago

    "Sometimes you need to take a step back to take a leap forward imo. Rumble is something that can be easely omitted if you've gor a better alternative, cause you really don't need it to play a game at all."

    Well what is the better alternative - As removing rumble is removing the connection between the users interaction in 3d virtual space and the simulation of touch of which a system that completely removes that without offering an alternative seems odd. Having nothing in your hands and no way to give the user the feeling of touch is not a leap forward at all.

  • zedzee #58 3 years ago

    I don't believe you need a controller or 'wand' for every kind of interactive game. So I disagree with SM completely.

    When you shake hands with someone, there's no wand in your hand, so why do I need it in order to interact with a game, if the game code is perfectly happy to recognise the fact that I'm trying to shake hands with an in-game character.

    Isn't that enough to reassure the character (let's say in a war game) that I'm on their side?

    SM is simply jealous of the technology that Natal provides - Sony's is nothing new - and he's simply been told what to say by the Nintendo marketing people.

    You know...Drop a few hints that it's crap and they don't have any experience in making games for it, but don't mention them by name, because they can put us out of business with one single defamation of character court case.

  • scouserfuller9 #59 3 years ago

    I agree with everything Miyamoto's said so far since E3. He claims Nintendo have the experience which shows in the Wii's top selling games. Look how many are published by Nintendo! Also as much as I think Microsoft have come up with a great invention apart from beat-em-up games you're gonna wanna be holding a sword if it involves sword action, a gun if it involves gun action, tennis racket if you're playing tennis etc... The gameplay just won't feel right without some sort of control pad in your hand.

  • Les #60 3 years ago

    "Same with clinging to a controller. Hell, some people still swear to a keyboard and mouse, where's the rumble in that?"

    What would help the discussion is a clear definition of what a controller is IMO. Keyboard and mouse are forms of controllers. Like I said in another thread (and nicely quoted by Wastelander in here... ;) ) Natal can be argued to be a controller as well: It's a device that translates user input into commands that the game can understand.

    A controller translates the intent of a gamer into an action in the game. The less ambiguous the user instruction, the more predictable the outcome will be (the action that the game performs). As such, a button is extremely effective but at the same time extremely limited (each action requires a button or combination of buttons). IMHO game designers should focus on streamlining the required user input for a game.
    Edited by 1 at 16/06/09 @ 14:00

  • GreyBeard #61 3 years ago

    @Zedzee

    But why would you want to mime shaking hands with a character in a videogame? As opposed to press a "shake hands" button, what advantages does it offer exactly?

    It doesn't make it more realistic or immersive as you are basically waving your hand in empty space, presumably after having transferred the controller/plastic sword/whatever you were holding in your lead hand previously elsewhere.

    Its a gimmick. No more, no less.



  • menage #62 3 years ago

    If it;s really about pressing buttons then why is Wii sports so popular? I really don't need a controller in my hand to see the little guy swinging tne way I do that. It's called visual feedback, which is enough in most cases.

    "
    Well what is the better alternative - As removing rumble is removing the connection between the users interaction in 3d virtual space and the simulation of touch of which a system that completely removes that without offering an alternative seems odd. Having nothing in your hands and no way to give the user the feeling of touch is not a leap forward at all."

    I really never got a feeling of touch with any controller. I'm not exactly sure what you mean though, But making the same movements as a guy swinging a sword on screen on screen actually makes me identify a whole lot more with a charcter than a rumbling joypad, Gong through the motions so to say. Not that I like waggling and swinging, but if we were talking about touch, that would be the better option imo. Like I said, the same rumble for hitting a sword or or crashing a car kinda making the whole sensation a bit flat. Sure, it's nice to know when your character get's hit by a bullet, but that's usually amplified with a huge red splosh on screen as well. Nice bonus, not really worth that much in the end
    Edited by 1 at 16/06/09 @ 14:18

  • GreyBeard #63 3 years ago

    @Ashen-Sugar

    So, pray tell how is boom blocks going to work without a controller?

    How is the hardware going to differentiate between a practice swing and proper throw?

    Without some kind of mechanical device how does a game handle modal shifts in input? Gesture recognition (3d or 2d) can only get you so far. That's why you need a trigger, stick, or button.

    Natal is an adjunct, an enhancement, a **partial** solution for most applications.

    The $10,000 question is though, if you accept that reality, how much value does a pure controller-free interface like Natal offer over a hybrid system like the Wii-mote or Sony's wand thing.

    The answer is VERY LITTLE. It's just a neat gimmick.

    Exact same deal with Milo. Yes, its a neat trick but honestly if it was out there tomorrow who the hell would buy it? Hardcore gamers I'm sure are just frothing at the prospect of talking to a virtual 10-year old. Regular users will most likely be freaked by the whole "uncanny valley" aspect of dealing with this living doll, and a lot of people will simply find the idea of interacting with a virtual child plain creepy and alarming. (Can you imagine the tabloids if its not 100% squeaky clean and "safe" - "Virtual Grooming" simulator here we come.)

  • wizbob #64 3 years ago

    No, Natal is not a gimmick. It is as flexible as developers choose to make it. No, Natal is not a gimmick. It is as flexible as developers choose to make it.

    That's the worrying bit; developers have almost totally failed to capitalise on the Wiimote. Anything more than a graphics bump seems to be outside most games developers comfort zone. Maybe Microsoft can grab some of the Retro studios guys who worked on Metroid with Miyamoto.

  • Les #65 3 years ago

    "But why would you want to mime shaking hands with a character in a videogame? As opposed to press a "shake hands" button, what advantages does it offer exactly?"

    For me it's not so much a discussion about whether motion controls can have a function in games (they obviously can, given Wii's success), it's about whether the new efforts of Sony and MS will have useful applications within the genres so beloved by hardcore gamers.

  • Les #66 3 years ago

    "Anything more than a graphics bump seems to be outside most games developers comfort zone."

    Sad but true.

  • GreyBeard #67 3 years ago

    @Ashen-Shugar

    1. I am a professional developer. (with experience on Nintendo, MS, and Sony platforms)

    2. You cannot just fob off the issue of handling modal switching of input states, as its intrinsic to the whole design process. A really simple example I've used elsewhere is the entering/exiting pause mode - a neccessity for titles that don't use a turn-based or party-style (short bursts of play) construction. That's the big difference between a game and a tech demo: in the former you cant just drop the feature because its a problem to implement.

    3. Its extraordinarily arrogant to simply accuse designers/developers of a lack of ambition/vision without any experience of the development process and its complexities. It's all very well saying, yes doing thing x would be cool, but what happens when implementing that breaks elements y and z. Sorry to disappoint you, but there usually are good reasons why things are done a certain way - it has to be practical.

    4. If you think you know better, can do better. Show us (the developer community) that you can walk it like you talk it. Even if its as simple as posting a detailed example on a forum. Apparently great design ideas are cheap, so what do you have to lose?

  • Negotiator #68 3 years ago

    Greybeard everything you stated, every device you stated never made it to production, not one. They used similar tech that was flawed, Natal uses similar but far more advanced tech, its like comparing an old BW TV with a LCD TV of today, similar but more advanced. You need to open your eyes buddy, listen with your ears and have a coke and a smile and STFU.

  • GreyBeard #69 3 years ago

    @Ashen-Shugar

    You just don't get it do you? When you reach for the "touch-zone" or the controller what's stopping the camera from interpreting that as a throw? Remember, that camera is always on, always monitoring your movements because that's how it works!.

    Like I said, walk it like you talk it. Show me some critical thinking and I'll take your comments seriously.

    Because all you've demonstrated in your reply is your ignorance and rudeness.

    I said I was a developer to reinforce the fact that my opinion is an informed one, not to gather your approval. The only approval I need comes in my salary invoice at the end of the month, because I'm a professional - not just another ill-informed blowhard trying to score points on the internet.

  • GreyBeard #70 3 years ago

    @Negotiator

    Improvements in technology don't help if they aren't fit for purpose. My argument all along has been not that Natal won't work as advertised (the technology is proven), just that what it brings to the table is inherently limited to a select range of applications.

    A lot of that limitation is down to the human side of the interface, but that absolutely doesn't mean that those issues aren't real impediments to what can and cannot be done.

    The way MS has presented Natal is that its a "better-way" somehow, that it will supercede existing interface methods. My counter- argument is that its too incomplete a solution (no tactile feedback, requires an existing controller or replacement for modal input changes, too reliant on voice recognition, too physically demanding, too reliant on environmental conditions, etc.) to be given that title.
    Edited by 1 at 16/06/09 @ 17:29

  • grussbarbar #71 3 years ago

    To be fair to Shigeru Miyamoto, his comments were absolutely NOT made in response to Project Natal. They were made in response to a direct question of the interviewer, if he thought that gaming without a controller in your hands is a good idea.
    Quote of the question: What do you think of the idea of controlling a game with nothing, no controller, in your hands? Do you think that costs aside that that’s a good idea, or that you do need something physical to hold on to? See the source article.

    I would also like to mention that Miyamoto-dono has not said that you can't use Project Natal win conjunction with a controller. He knows as well as we do that that is possible.

    In either case, Eurogamer is blowing this up to be a console war/competition thing, when it isn't. It's not an off-hand remark he just made with nobody asking. It's just an honest (and IMO sensible) answer to a direct question about game design.

  • Les #72 3 years ago

    Hadn't responded to this ill constructed gem of 'logic' yet but couldn't pass up on it as these kind of nonsense arguments are made around here all the time...

    "Yeah, there's no problem there, nothing creepily obsessive at all.
    Thanks for looking out for us poor bastards that got suckered in, we can't make our own decisions.
    We obviously need someone who's had shit in their morning frosties to tell us how fucking rubbish everything is ALL THE TIME."

    So people are allowed to continuously (and unwittingly in most cases) praise Natal (or any other thing the poster that uses this kind of 'logic' likes) but if in the same thread you argue against the object of affection, all of a sudden you are obsessive, angry, feeling threatened, etc., etc.

    It shouldn't take much effort to see that such arguments aren't logically sound but unfortunately you see them all over the place. :(

    A proper discussion uses arguments instead of ad hominem.

  • GreyBeard #73 3 years ago

    @Ashen-Shugar

    Are you for real? I mean seriously, are you being deliberately obtuse or have you just got no idea how computers and other digital technology works?

    Natal can't read your tiny mind you know. All it can do is compare approximate positions of points and volumes in 3d space, and track their motion and angle.

    The more constrained you make it in order to mask off unwanted input, the less "free" the motions the player makes have to become in order to register correctly, obviating the whole point of the enterprise in the process.

    AND IN ANY CASE, ITS FAR EASIER ON BOTH THE PLAYER AND THE SYSTEM TO SIMPLY POLL A CONTROLLER FOR A BUTTON PRESS. YOU ARE MAKING WHAT SHOULD BE A SIMPLE PROCESS INTO A BYZANTINE SEQUENCE OF PRECISE HAND/ARM GESTURES. THAT IS JUST BAD (GAME) DESIGN.

    Try and comprehend the argument before you volunteer your ill-informed opinion.

  • davisorle #74 3 years ago

    " they have finally obtained the very basic technology for doing motion control"
    lmao this dude is funny.. So he is either too stupid to seperate the things he is talking about or he just hasnt even paid attention ( which we all know ofc he has cause its the reason he is deffending his field the ugly way he does )? You need feedback ? What does Natal have to do with the wand which is a copy of his WiiMotion? Nothing. Some know that already.Natal can be combined with the fucking controller itself ( ill just tal daily in case someone sends him the posts from here to not make a fool of himself next time when he thinks the audience are all ignorant noobs or kiddos ), you can hold on ur penis itself if you want pretending its something like a joypad in a flight simulator or you can hold an actual sword when you wanna play your damn Wii game that u showed at E3.

    When it comes to Sony, yeah when all the losers that said YAY SISAXIS etc etc none had the nerve to answer mine or who ever else's posts saying " you dont need controller vibration all of a sudden in ur controller?". Noooo ofc not.. lol Sony is now once again copying nintendo LITERALLY trying to steal some more from that piece of market.

    Just deliver to the consumer and gamer and leave the bullshit in all seriousness. Its a matter of time before they make virtual girlfriends with Natal. The 360s will be sold way WAY more in Japan as sad as that sounds. Hmmm.. specially if its with anime art Id guess but i dont watch those things. lol

  • Zomeguy #75 3 years ago

    AND IN ANY CASE, ITS FAR EASIER ON BOTH THE PLAYER AND THE SYSTEM TO SIMPLY POLL A CONTROLLER FOR A BUTTON PRESS.
    Did you have a look at Wii sales figures recently?

  • grussbarbar #76 3 years ago

    I'd like to state again that mr. Miyamoto was not talking down on Project Natal. (We can thank Eurogamer for taking his words out of context... -_-;) He was answering a direct question about Nintendo's own camera control experiments and whether he thought gaming without a controller in your hand is a good idea or not.

    Besides, he only said that he thinks that having a controller in your hands would feel better and more interactive. If you do want to apply his words to Project Natal, I think the most you can do is conclude that Shigeru Miyamoto thinks Project Natal would work best if used in conjunction with a controller.

    Guys, he has to be the most experienced game designer in the world, with decades of spearheading innovations in both hardware and software. The least you can do is give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he actually thought about this instead of just dismissing him as "stupid"...

  • GreyBeard #77 3 years ago

    In case you hadn't noticed, the Wii controller has buttons. And a dpad. And an attachable analog stick. All sources of modal control with haptic feedback.

    Unlike Natal.

    The point I've been making all along is that Natal is an incomplete solution. Its not a replacement, its an addition that will in most cases require augmenting with a more conventional control system.

    Once again, as the point is apparently too subtle to penetrate the thick skulls of certain respondents, the way MS has presented the Natal is as a revolutionary system that doesn't require conventional controls. This is true for certain (limited) applications, but most games WILL STILL require buttons and sticks like Sony and Nintendo use in their motion-control devices.

    The whole "hands-free" thing is just a gimmick. It's good for generating comment and coverage, but from a design possibilities standpoint it offers far less than you'd think. Just being different doesn't cut-it, it has to be better to be a truly revolutionary device. From where I stand on the matter, I just don't see it.

    And I'm still yet to hear a convincing counter-argument in Natal's favour. So until I do, my position isnt shifting one iota.

  • Calgon #78 3 years ago

    Yossarian +1

    Well said, nice to see someone who pays attention to whats already been said and put some proper thought into it instead of all these poorly conceived reasons why it might fail.

    Im betting they will have a new controller to go with the next xbox along with Natal as standard(should be cheaper to produce by then so a pack-in natal and controller as standard isnt out of the question, my concern is they dont use the controller tech to skimp on the processing power to be used on the games like Nintendo did), untill then where natal is used for hardcore games it will just be to enhance the experience along with the 360 controller... who would argue with that?

    I dont remember seeing any people talk about it here but for the next Xbox maybe they'll release the "wearable mouse" controller(which featured 3 gyroscopes, an accelerometer and a magnetometer for accurate tracking of the position, angle and all the rest) that was found in some of the patents MS filed a year back.

    The Patent application form. April 10 2008.
    MICROSOFT CORPORATION - Wearable computer pointing device

    1. In a computing environment, a system comprising, a pointing device configured for wearing on a user's hand,

    2. The system of claim 1 wherein the pointing device is generally U-shaped, and has a first part that fits in the user's palm coupled to a second part that fits behind the user's knuckles.


    MS controller prototype

    .....Microsoft was researching had the functionality of both the Nintendo Wii Remote and the Nunchuk packed into a single device,
    with a shape like a “pistol grip.” On top, it is supposed to have an analog stick (that could be replaced by a trackball) surrounded by the four action buttons.

  • Calgon #79 3 years ago

    GreyBeard the problem is nobody needs to convince you of anything here, you've already convinced yourself(good for you, you are entitled to your opinion, I mean you've hardly gone full "Les" with it and preached how everyone is wrong and MS is evil as usual, so I dont have problem with that.) but you are also making out MS has said something they havent... what has been said is Natal wont require any controllers for games and applications built for it(which despite what they say is probably mostly going to be aimed at the casuals similar to what Nintendo tried to do), you've even agreed as much(not without downplaying it slightly but thats neither here nor there).

    They also said they arent planning of getting rid of controllers for traditional games/hardcore games which is where most of your concerns are but you dont seem to beable to grasp it.

    Natal is no more of a gimmick than Wii has been(which it has turned out to be for hardcore gamers... who have used an accurate pointing device called the mouse for years), if its marketed right and the casual market likes it they will buy plenty of them as we can see from the Wii.