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MS marketing for XBLC games "woeful" News
Xbox 360 News by Robert Purchese
Clover creator Daniel Jones and Tank Strike maker Daniel Steger reckon Microsoft has not done enough to nourish independent talent on the Xbox Live Community Games channel, and call promotion of the platform "woeful".
Speaking exclusively to Eurogamer, the pair say Microsoft's indie resurrection dream cowers next to the iPhone App Store, and is undesirable and unprofitable in its current state.
"Microsoft has gone quiet on the service, with nary an official public mention in recent months. Compared to the marketing Apple have invested in for the iPhone as a games platform, it's pretty woeful," Daniel Jones, boss of Clover developer Binary Tweed, told us.
"Even popular services like iPhone have a lot of people making games that just don't make money. Their service just suffers from different problems of games being lost in the crowd, rather than not having a crowd," Daniel Steger explains.
"There's an argument that maybe the games just aren't good enough," adds Jones, "and whilst there's some truth in that, the fact is we have 20 million Xbox Live users, of whom 4 million regularly purchase content. That the top-selling XBLCG titles only sell around 10,000 units shows there's something quite seriously wrong with the service's marketing - namely a lack thereof."
Clover and Tank Strike are among the better examples of games on XBLCG, as our May roundup points out. But Jones openly admits that Clover lost money, and the same under-exposure forced Steger to pander to an audience he literally cannot afford to miss. The outlook isn't rosy.
"Those that stay and download are often those who already have intent to purchase. This results in a high conversion rate but a less-than-stellar download rate. I have to hit a certain standard based on their past experiences with this genre before they will even look at the game, and at my foolishly low 200 [Microsoft] Point price I don't make enough per sale for it to be financially viable if I don't get a large group looking," says Steger.
"Clover cost around GBP 13,000 to make," Jones reveals, openly admitting the project lost money, "and that was almost entirely on living costs - central London isn't cheap! I know some developers who have sunk USD 30,000 into their XBLCG projects, and were still worryingly optimistic about making that back," Jones reveals. "I feel very sorry for them, but I hope that they can prove me wrong."
The winners of the Xbox Live Community Games channel are applications. RC-AirSim, a radio-controlled model aeroplane simulator, is the hottest title now and has been for some time.
Steger says this is because he and fellow indie game-makers have to compete with both retail games and Xbox Live Arcade titles. For every Clover there is a Sam & Max; for every Tank Strike there is a Worms or Death Tank. He cannot compete as things stand.
"I think that XBLCG can be a viable platform, but it's more about knowing what market you are trying to enter. Games like Clover and my own game Tank Strike didn't receive as many sales as we would need to be financially viable for the long-term, but what about the applications that do hold on to their positions in the top 10? I've seen myfishtank and RC-AirSim at the top for quite a while, and they have probably gotten a decent return on their investments," Steger explains.
"Applications are also easier to satiate their audiences with because there are no points of comparison. The top isn't filled with apps because the marketplace is filled with apps. The top is filled with apps because they offer something that Xbox Live users can't get anywhere else."
But change is on the way, as Microsoft plans to change the channel name to Xbox Live Indie Games and add reviews to sort through the bulk. It's a start, but Jones and Steger believe more needs to be done before XBLCG becomes a breeding ground for indie talent.
"For XBLCG to expand, quite a few things will need to happen," outlines Clover's Daniel Jones. "Research we've done has shown that there's a great deal of ignorance and confusion regarding the service, with some Live users thinking they need to subscribe to the [XNA] Creator's Club to play the games, and others just having no idea what XBLCG is.
"There's even been instances of developers recommending games to their friends who can't find them on the service. If people who know about the service, know about a game, and have already decided to purchase can't find the damned thing, then it's no wonder that sales are relatively low."
Steger agrees: "With that in mind I really wish that Microsoft would set up a better system for hot-linking to our own games marketplace, so that we could minimize the steps players have to go through to queue a game for download from their PCs."
"It's hard for games to stay at the top of the sales charts on XBLCG, and Microsoft's future changes for adding reviews and changing the name to Xbox Live Indie Games may pull in more people looking for 'games'," Steger adds, "but I wouldn't bank everything on that prospect, and no matter what, there's always going to be those who won't be able to make the service financially viable."
Xbox Live Community Games was introduced as part of the New Xbox Experience last year. Along with the XNA Creators Club Online, which offers Xbox 360 development tools and advice - albeit for a small price - Microsoft hoped to spark a fire of indie innovation.
It's a lonely crusade that Microsoft has admirably persisted with. And Jones and Steger, despite their frustration, acknowledge and praise the Xbox-maker for it.
"The XNA framework has done a fantastic job of lowering the technical learning curve of developing console games, and XBLCG as a service has really enabled a much more accessible route to getting a game to market," says Jones. "It's a much better deal for aspiring developers than the traditional pitching-to-publishers model, and from what I've heard a much better platform than WiiWare. Has anyone except Frontier made money on that yet?
"People have asked, 'Is XBLCG a success?' To answer that, you've got to wonder what its goal was. To drive uptake of XNA? Yep, it's done that nicely. Make lots of money for developers and Microsoft? Absolutely not. Create a new route into the industry? Given the opportunities that have presented themselves to Binary Tweed since Clover's release, I'd say it's achieved this one quite nicely," he concludes.
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GamesConnoisseur
26/06/09 @ 15:30
+5
I ll agree that the promotions is poor but the biggest issue is the amount of dross games that is drowning out the gems and a dire need for Apple successful rankings of 5 out of 5 posted from users and a top 25/50/75 etc table to help narrows down what you would be likely to enjoy from your risky purchases.
Apple is not really doing a lot of promotions of any individual apps but they are successful at pushing that Apps is what making IPhone works and so much so that I had actually gone and purchased the new model this week! Loving the apps and darn too many to choose from! |
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kangarootoo
26/06/09 @ 15:44
+1
Perhaps MS have gone quiet because they have realised the app store is doing MS's better than they are themselves.
And also, I don't want to be a pedant but... ""There's an argument that maybe the games just aren't good enough," adds Jones, "and whilst there's some truth in that, the fact is we have 20 million Xbox Live users, of whom 4 million regularly purchase content. That the top-selling XBLCG titles only sell around 10,000 units shows there's something quite seriously wrong with the service's marketing - namely a lack thereof."" Those meagre 10k sales is no firm confirmation that the marketing is poor. It could also siomply be because the content isn't very good. The 4m users that regularly buy content could have just looked at the XBLC content and thought "no thanks". That is also a possibility. |
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Coughthulu
26/06/09 @ 15:45
+10
This all confuses me.
Wasn't the whole point of XBLC for hobbyists and not professionals, be they Indie or otherwise? Surely if you're making games for a living, you need to be on XBLA? Or am I coming at this from the wrong direction? |
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+2
The reason I haven't bought Clover or Tank Strike isn't because there isn't enough marketing- i've seen them and checked out the pics and descriptions- but they just don't look or sound particularly interesting to me. Simple as that. Don't blame MS for not advertising your game when the game isn't capable of selling itself.
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jack_klugman
26/06/09 @ 15:47
0
The iTunes App store isn't really the best model to follow - it feels more like an afterthought within iTunes and the iPhone-side interface is very clinical. But Microsoft could definately do more to push these products - both the indie stuff and Arcade-exclusive titles in general. The price point for indie titles probably needs some thought too; the iPhone is setting a new standard with 59p games, some of which rival the quality of Xbox Live Arcade games (in my opinion).
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-2
The difference for me is one is a phone and one is a games machine... one is for talking on, and owners are desperate to make it 'sexier' so are willing to spend money on pointless software to make their phone more interesting... the Xbox however is interesting already as it plays games... good games, AAA title games, and perhaps crappy little pointless games would be better served being marketed to phone users who'll, let's be honest, will buy anything! Console owners I'm sure tend to consider their purchases a little more carefully, if not because there's usually more money being spent. No offense to anyone who makes a game for a few thousand pounds, but by comparison to one that costs millions, and one that I know I'll enjoy, there's just no competition. If it's profit you're after, perhaps consider making iPhone games. You could always attempt to sell it to PC owners. Although I suspect PC owners would probably laugh at the idea of paying for games of this sort of quality!!
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+15
I've published a Community Game and I was under no illusion of the figures that I was going to push, and you know why? Because Community games isn't designed for people to get rich quick, it's designed for people to actually put something out there and share their creations with the greater world. I've sold 34 games so far, and I'm over the moon!!
Binary Tweed should have noticed that and gone ahead with obtaining a XBLA license, if you are going to spend 13k on development you don't want to be spending it on a small untested and unadvertised platform. As for living in London, use your head and move somewhere reasonably priced, that would have knocked 5 grand off your development cost for a start. |
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octavedoctor
26/06/09 @ 15:53
+1
I think it's simply down to the fact that XBLC has become filled with a sea of rubbish games and apps that no one wants to play. It is really hard to sift through it all and find anything that you want to try a demo of.
Seriously with all these games dev degrees popping up and some truly inovative small games coming out - , I thought there would have been some real gems on XBLC - instead it's full of massage-a-thons, top down shootem ups (Sorry been looking at these for 25 years + now) and other woeful content. MS needs to have a big clearout, rethink their submission standards and relaunch the service - with a clear and well defined guide on which games are doing well and being looked at the most... And what's this focus on money? Like Coughthulu said - my understanding was that XBLC was going to be a plaform for hobbyists and experimentors. |
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metalangel
26/06/09 @ 15:57
+1
Oh christ, are these guys the new Jonathan Blow, hard done by indie devs whose problems are everyone else's fault? They certainly seem to have stolen his soapbox.
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LlamaFarmer
26/06/09 @ 16:12
+3
I mostly agree with Clover chap, say whatever you want about whether they should be going for profits on this service, as an end-user it isn't a pleasant shopping experience. A lot of clicks to get the games without many signposts in the Xbox menu system and in the end there is a huge list of games that you have no idea about. Adding a ratings system/filters and a better way of displaying these games is essential. I really like the idea behind the service, I quite liked but didn't love Clover, but was more than happy to pay the asking price for the experience. I just wouldn't know what game to try next as that was based on the Eurogamer review.
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LittleSacky
26/06/09 @ 16:13
+1
There is a large issue of visibility & credibility that the channel has, But it is also the responsibility of the game creator to help market the game, A lot of the XBLC game creators seem to release their game and then after maybe a day or two promotion, seemingly forget about it and then expect it to sell well or that the specific xblc sites will spread the word, However the specific XBLC reveiw sites don't have the audience that infulence people at large.
Also The various popular Indie game communities don't often don't regard the XBLC channel as a proper platform for indie games and as such often don't report/talk about the interesting games that are on there. So you don't get the that leak over when a community finds a new and interesting game, or the attaction for people to make games for the channel.
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 26/06/09 @ 17:14
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Wastelander
26/06/09 @ 16:32
+1
From my experience I tend to only buy MS points when I've got something particular to buy in mind, and maybe spend the left over on a XBLA game or a bit of cheaper DLC.
There's so much content on the marketplace I've not even had the chance to buy and play all the things I do want a look at, nevermind spending those points on an unknown quantity. I don't think advertising will make much difference when these little games are competing against proper DLC and XBLA for your points. |
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+1
Don't know what happened up there...
Anyway, re-writting: What's "woeful" ? And, I purchased about 10 games, because, I kinda liked them (a few a lot, some so-so), but also because I want to contribute in bringing and supporting these kinda activities. As I have my career elsewher, this is the only way to do it. Though, the system has indeed some problems, and the worst, for me, is the amount of crap which gets published. I don't want an "internet" experience on Live. Some quality filter please, or at least, like many are asking for, a rating system.
Edited 2 times,
most recently on 26/06/09 @ 18:30
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DeejayBinaryTweed
26/06/09 @ 17:02
+1
You're certainly right about moving out of central London, and as soon as circumstance allowed I did. Chaps here are also right about it being a financial risk - was totally aware of that at the time, but doesn't stop me being a bit disappointed that the market wasn't bigger.
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DeejayBinaryTweed
26/06/09 @ 17:11
+2
@paulf
Damn, I knew having that moat installed would come back to bite me. |
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+2
Totally agree. I've held back releasing anything on XBLC games because there is no marketting path and it would end up just being a waste of my efforts. By contrast I have released and am already making money from a couple of iPhone games that I've made. One of which is simply an iPhone version of the game for XBLC with changed controls and shrunk graphics.
Until Microsoft advertise their community games better and start to enforce some kind of polish on the titles, it's generally a waste of time releasing for the platform. The exception is if you want to put something out there that potential employers can look at as part of a portfolio. Microsoft really need to advertise the good XBLC games up there alongside their arcade titles. They shouldn't make any destinction between the two as this is what has lead to consumer distrust. Maybe they should be forced to have a real look at the apple app store to see how things should be done. |
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Stegersaurus
26/06/09 @ 17:17
+3
Hi, this is Daniel Steger, the creator of Tank Strike...
I don't blame people for not being interested in games like Clover or Tank Strike when they go to the marketplace. Innovative applications on the XBox stay at the top of the sales charts because they get people interested. They offer experiences that players can't get anywhere else on the system and they have found a niche for themselves that works. Choosing to compete with Worms or in Clover's case Sam & Max games may be a risky decision. Microsoft's XBLA store is a very calculated portfolio of products, and having a variety of game types in that portfolio means that each game does better due to its uniqueness. The applications are untapped genres on the platform. When we release games of the same genre, we're trying to compete with established titles, when a lot of those who come to XBLCG are looking for something new. Of course we don't keep interest, because we don't offer enough new, high quality content to merit the look past screenshots. Games from the start of the service like Biology Battle and Weapon of Choice have similar issues where they competed with Geometry Wars and Contra. Personally I'm still working on XNA games, but am going after a different approach. I'm making a game to stand out from those on XBLA or disc-based games already on the market, as well as using my own site to sell my games (which is why I wish Microsoft would introduce a more streamlined process for queuing games for download to the XBox). I'm also considering releasing my next game for PC as well. iPhone development interests me but they are really easy to get lost in the sea of apps/games. They get such a huge userbase because the app store is the only place to get games/apps. On the XBox distribution channels for games have been around long before XBLCG, so of course it's harder for XBLCG to get that following, even if there are a lot of XBox users their loyalties are with the arcade and disc-based games where there is a higher expectation of quality. |
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Coughthulu
26/06/09 @ 18:09
0
Unfortunately, I think a larger problem here is that on XBLC you're competing for essentially the same money as XBLA titles, which by their very definition have higher budgets and production values.
Even if XBLC was a lot more visible, you still need to pique the interest of punters over games on XBLA, and to do that you really need to have a product that isn't available elsewhere. Maybe this is why the massage apps have sold so well? I wish Deejay and Stegersaurus the best of luck, but I still think that trying to make a living out of XBLC which was meant to be a hobbyist channel is just going to be too much hard work.
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 26/06/09 @ 19:10
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DocDaneeka
26/06/09 @ 23:52
0
Anyone wishing to try out a good community game should download Carnivale Showtime. It puts most Xbla games to shame and is only 400 points.
Also http://www.xnplay.co.uk/ is a pretty good site for reviews of community games, I especially like it when they lay into some of the awful pish some people release. |
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+1
I have had a browse through the community games section. I've never bothered again as all the games are just rubbish. After a bad first impression I probably won't ever bother looking again. I consider it a waste of my time even downloading any of the demos.
XBLA isn't really much better IMO. Just not my taste in games. I'm a bit jealous of the games that PS3 gets for download. Wipeout HD, PixelJunk games, Flower. |
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+5
There are some awful comments in this thread, I mean come on guys there's a big difference between getting rich and getting enough return on investment to cover expenses accrued over the time spent making something.
As to the "hobbyist and experimenter" angle, anyone with a good idea would be best advised to save it for situation where their ingenuity has a good chance of being rewarded. Because at this stage in the development of videogames as an art and media form, truly good ideas are an incredibly valuable commodity. For example, people were frothing over some of the little presentation/storytelling innovations in SC: Conviction. The attention that brings is (potentially) worth millions of dollars in sales, and that success will reflect upon -admittedly in a limited way- the people responsible. Do those people deserve to be rewarded for their creativity? I say, hell yes they do. If you agree with that proposition then you should also agree that people who bring clever and exciting stuff to XBLC also deserve recompense for their work. Arguably more so as there is less bureaucracy and management for the rewards to be shared among. What I'm saying is IF you care about creativity and originality, please spare a little bit of thought for the people making the games on offer. Making snarky comments about them living in expensive parts of the country is just out of order. People making games aren't beholden to you, its a job of work for which they deserve a chance to make a living from. |
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Sunyavadin
27/06/09 @ 11:29
0
I buy them all the time, and on my recommendation every single one of my friends bought Solar. So the market is there, you just need to get the word to those people who lack friends who regularly share recommendations.
Also I hear MS take a CRIMINALLY disproportionate lion's share of the profits.
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 27/06/09 @ 12:31
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0
If you agree with that proposition then you should also agree that people who bring clever and exciting stuff to XBLC also deserve recompense for their work.
Why? You shouldn't just arbitrarily reward someone for being creative, they have to make something of it too. World of Goo was genuinely interesting and worthwhile, it got focus in the spotlight because it deserved to be played next to anything on the market. Now not every Indie game needs to be World of Goo, but if your target audience is people who don't know they can get Worms or Sam and Max on the same system you shouldn't be talking about marketing. That said I don't really think I've seen anything on the community games page on the product spotlight, so maybe there are some hidden gems worthy of a little push. As far as pricing goes I'd be surprised if there are a lot of people who have access to the 360 but have nothing to do, so lower price points might work for brief and experimental pieces, but not for dull or unimaginative games. |
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+1
Also I hear MS take a CRIMINALLY disproportionate lion's share of the profits.
At the moment they take 30%. Considering there's no publisher sitting in between to take any more away, you end up with a pretty decent percentage.
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 27/06/09 @ 16:04
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Stegersaurus
28/06/09 @ 01:30
+2
MS take 30% if they don't feature you, and so far they haven't taken more than 30% from anyone (at the time MS wasn't sure, but they said that if you were featured they may take UP TO another 30%, which seemed to just be so they could cover any future decisions). They decided in the last round of payments not to take any extra from anyone's sales, likely because the sales weren't great to begin with, and taking extra from a game they may have "featured" in some way yet still made no money would be a bad sign and give them a bad reputation. There is a bit of an extra loss that isn't quite as noticed though, and that's the fact that there is a cost associated with converting MS points to actually USD (and then perhaps another to converting to your local currency). I think the actual percent creators end up with after both the 30% take and the MS point to USD conversion is 66.8% or the original price of the product.
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+1
I have to agree with the lack of marketing. I own a 360 but I have not played it much since I got my PS3. Still I am a regular gamer not too much industry news slips by me. But somehow these 'community games' did. I had no idea they existed till today. For more causal gamers I don't think these games are on the radar at all.
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-3
wow, this clover guy has sure gotten a lot of publicity for has terrible game. no doubt that was the point of his complaining to the media. the thing that is "woeful" about community games is that 98% of them are so bad that just looking at the screenshots you know that there's no point to download even the trial version. i have bought some good ones: trino, solar, bricks4ever, carnyvale, and word soup.
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+4
@Rack
My point is just that why would you work for little money, if you could get paid better doing the same job somewhere else? It makes no sense. These devs are not having a go at the public for not buying their titles, they are just saying to MS that just dumping their titles on their service is not enough. XBLC is a business, and in their view MS are being unsupportive partners. Is that really such an unreasonable complaint? And honestly, just because a team or individual's first title isn't something that floats your boat, it doesn't mean that their next project wont be more to your liking. The thing is though, if they lose their shirt on the first attempt its unlikely that there will be a second. Or at least not via that provider. If small devs like these guys are unhappy and/or fail, everybody loses in the long-term. And by that I don't mean you should blindly buy their games to keep them afloat, as it doesn't address the problem they are trying to highlight. Just that a bit of moral support isn't a lot to ask, and certainly snarky comments about where they live (NOT you specifically) is totally uncalled-for. |
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0
There are improvements that could be made to the service, community ratings and reviews recommendation engines and so on, but these are features that are also missing from the XBLA, the ground is essentially level, if you still can't compete then it isn't really MS' problem or fault.
There's a more real problem that XBLCG lacks an identity. As a developer it's a way to release a game without some of the heavy expenses of full dev kits. But as a consumer? It's very difficult to say just what the point is, so it gets known as a place for games not good enough to be XBLA games. The highest praise I've seen for an XBLCG game is that it could be an XBLA game. If Daniel or someone else can make something to be an ambassador for XBLCG in the same way Geometry Wars and Braid were ambassadors for XBLA titles then perhaps some marketing will do some good. If not then the best that can be expected are some tweaks to how easy the service is to access, but I wouldn't expect any huge results from this. |
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0
I think they're forgetting that they are responsible for marketing their game. I've not seen a single advert for Clover or Tank Strike. It's not MS's responsibility to promote their games.
The problem with the service is the masses of very poor games. Since post-launch there hasn't been that many decent games released. How do you advertise a service where most of it is crap? "Come to XBLCG and the odds are you'll end up with something you'll delete in 5 seconds". |
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