Microsoft "unapologetic" about Xbox bans

By Tom Bramwell Published 13 November, 2009

"Committed" to sorting out piracy.

European Xbox boss Chris Lewis has said Microsoft is "unapologetic" about banning a huge number of gamers from Xbox Live for modifying their consoles.

"If it's clear someone is downloading pirated copies or have modified their Xbox in some way that will allow them to download games that they haven't purchased legitimately and yes we lock that account down and we're unapologetic about that," he told Sky News.

Although Microsoft has refused to say how many people have been banned, reports, such as this one from the BBC, have suggested it could be anything between 600,000 and a million accounts.

The platform holder simply said the move affected a "small percentage" of the more than 20 million people who use Xbox Live, and added that it only banned consoles, not accounts, so it is possible to recover an account to a replacement console.

"All consumers should know that piracy is illegal, and that modifying their Xbox 360 console to play pirated discs, violates the Xbox Live terms of use, will void their warranty and result in a ban from Xbox Live," Microsoft said last week when it first warned of the upcoming mass banning.

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

You may also like...

Comments (153) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • woodnotes #1 2 years ago

    Good to see that MS has the balls to do this. Alhough it's likely on the back of publisher pressure.

  • ObiChrisKenobi #2 2 years ago

    Over due to be honest. I was wondering why my friends list was so low last night, turns out they were banned! Though over the course of two years they've saved £3000 on games, downloading 3-10 games a month, which if you compare to the £150 for a new console doesn't really look like MS is 'winning' the battle.

    Though I guess its the developers who are hit the most from the pirates.

  • bad09 #3 2 years ago

    Playing pirate games yes, no apologies needed but I don't know about just modding your 360, but then I have no idea, is there a use for a modded 360 other than piracy?

    I know it's bloody stupid Sony block me buying from them purely because I hack my PSP, but then a CF PSP has more uses than just pirate games.

  • Genji #4 2 years ago

    600,000 to a million??!?

    Wow.

  • matrim83 #5 2 years ago

    Microsoft is "unapologetic" about banning a huge number of gamers from Xbox Live for modifying their consoles.

    As well they should be.

  • Eraser #6 2 years ago

    If all these people run out to the stores and buy a new XBox immediately, even if only 50% does that, then that means MS will sell another 300,000 - 500,000 XBoxes and since MS sells their XBox units for a profit these days, it can only be good for them

  • Darren #7 2 years ago

    I'm not big fan of Microsoft personally but they are perfectly within their rights to ban people who they KNOW are playing pirated games. IMO they should be prosecuting them for doing so do not just preventing them from playing games online. You have to give your name and address in order to subscribe to LIVE in the first place so Microsoft have the means to pursue these people even if it's to just send them a threatening letter.

  • kendoji #8 2 years ago

    Good to see those frackers banned! I hate Xbox pirates, which is ironic as I'm a huge music and movie pirate myself.

    Edit: Wow, a lot of honest people around here apparently. Tbh I download a lot of music cause I'm a huge music nut, and afterwards, once I've listened and decided which albums I REALLY like, I often do go and buy them. I'm not a bad person! I'm kind to kittens!
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 14:01

  • Darren #9 2 years ago

    @saucymonk - The article states that the number of people banned is between 600,000 and 1,000,000 so that would be less than 3.33%, which is a small number. I think if the number of Xbox 360 RRODs had been that low then we'd all be happy instead of praying our fourth or fifth 360 actually lasts this time round ;)

  • Darren #10 2 years ago

    @kendoji - Now you're the very definition of the word "hypocrite"!!!

  • Genji #11 2 years ago

    Well, I'm a buttpirate.

    Arrrrrrr, shiver me timbers.

    No, no, down a bit and to the left.

    Arrrrrrrr.

  • kendoji #12 2 years ago

    @ Darren - yep I know!

  • bad09 #13 2 years ago

    @ kendoji

    Movies, yes, pirate away, the bastards don't listen and rip us off rotten. Torrent away! Music though, in a DRM free market where you can pick and choose out of an album you really have NO excuse now. For shame..

    As for games pirates I'll root for them until pricing comes down on DD (and now retail, thanks Acti), the DRM isn't that much of an issue with games but price is.

  • smernicki #14 2 years ago

    fuck them, serves them right

  • woodnotes #15 2 years ago

    I see pirates on the same level as benefit thieves. They scrounge the goods while the rest of us work hard and bloody pay for them to exist in the first place.

  • bad09 #16 2 years ago

    LOL why mark me down guys? I'm condemning his piracy...in the industry that listened to it's consumers and responded to their needs.

    If the movie and games industry sorted their act out I'd condemn piracy there to...they haven't..so I won't. :)

  • Widge #17 2 years ago

    Awesome comments in the forum from one guy. Summary "How dare they ban me! It is my right to pirate because my machines RROD! They owe me!".

  • ThisWillDestroyYou #18 2 years ago

    got banned last night, even had a retail copy of modern warfare 2 from sainsburys!! ordered a new elite off play straight away. cant complain really, saved over 1600 pounds over two years, going legit now, not worth the hassle

  • Shadders #19 2 years ago

    Glad to see this happen to be honest, the cynic in me thinks it's no coincidence that this is timed perfectly with the launch of the biggest game of the year; "forcing" people to go out and buy a new Xbox straight away.

  • Mr_Fiddler #20 2 years ago

    Interestingly this seems to be getting national press coverage too which will hopefully cut down on the number of people these cheats/thieves will inevitably try and sell them on to - Chrismas day is not really the time you want to find out that you got scammed!

  • bad09 #21 2 years ago

    @ ThisWillDestroyYou

    So I'm curious, can you tell us why you played 40 games for free?

    Did you choose not to pay for any games or could you honestly not afford it? Did you pay ANY money into the industry in that time?

  • ps3owner #22 2 years ago

    quick question, I am not in the know as it were, but does this also mean that the lot who modded their consoles will now loose their stats?! trophys and all that?! is that related to the console, or just the user name?! do you have to create a new profile?! just wondering...

    oh and I agree with woodnotes.

  • StooMonster #23 2 years ago

    MilkybKid1985: "NOT stolen them, they have copied them ... why software piracy is a different crime to theft" is what freetard pirates usually say when trying to claim their actions have no impact (not saying that you are such).

    This is because they are idiots who cannot tell the difference between physical things and abstract ones; it is simple they have acquired property, albeit intellectual property which is intangible but which is property none-the-less, without paying for it.

  • VicViper #24 2 years ago

    @Shadders

    I'm under no illusions, this was timed for MW2, I can't really think of a better time this year to do it, biggest multiplayer on 360 this year and you have can ban modders etc from XBL just as it hits? course you do it then it hurts more.

  • JensonJet #25 2 years ago

    ThisWillDestroyYou

    You're a c*nt. Boasting about what you saved by pirating games to a bunch of honest gamers who have supported the industry you've happily stolen from. Personally I think Eurogamer or any website that exists because of games and is financed by the industry should ban scum like you. F*ck off.

  • VicViper #26 2 years ago

    @ps3owner

    You gamertag itself is unaffected unless you have been very naughty on XBL, you can take your HDD (assuming its not modded) and put that in an unmodded 360 and your up and running again.
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 09:37

  • paulf #27 2 years ago

    I found this article on the bbc site really interesting

    [link url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/n ewsbeat/hi/technology/newsid_10000000/newsid_10002900/100029 15.stm
    ]http://ne ws.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/techno...[/link]

    can you 'win' a battle against people who don't believe they are doing wrong?

  • superdelphinus #28 2 years ago

    In other shock news - Police unapologetic at locking up criminals

  • frunk #29 2 years ago

    Peeps miss the golden rule of crime... its gonna happen - just Don't Get Caught!

  • FTM #30 2 years ago

    its a brilliant selling strategy really..they must have known about the last lot of firmware for ages but sat on it so people just got lulled into thinking they were safe, then you smack them with a ban just as the most eagerly anticiapted multi player game of the year turns up so if you want to play it safely you have to go and buy a new console an a legit copy of the game


    it will boost their sales figures on the run upto christmas a has caught out loads of people who thought they wre safe
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 09:59

  • kangarootoo #31 2 years ago

    @MilkybKid1985

    Not this business again.

    Pirating games IS stealing (which is taking property without consent, including intellectual or digital property), but it ISN'T theft (which refers to the carrying away of an object, as you say).

    Regardless, the sementics of it all is an utterly pointless addition to the debate. If the only thing a pirate can do when confronted is wave a dictionary and go "neeeeerrr", they deserve a smack in the head simple for being a time wasting tit.

  • AbyssUK #32 2 years ago

    Are people really so stupid to not have a switch to turn the chip off before connecting to live... you all deserve to have you accounts banned for stupidity. Now if only MS could find all the people who constantly call me jewish or gay every 2 minutes and kick them off too.

  • r_simsini #33 2 years ago

    Microsoft are very clever in banning all modded consoles at the same time. It doesn't let the modders know how they have been found out.

    I also think that the games are too expensive line is a ridiculous argument, as you don't see people stealing Bentley's because they think they cost too much.

  • Goffee #34 2 years ago

    Next generation, I bet there is a console disable-code hardwired into the CPU which is triggered if the box sees pirate software, that'll be a fun can of worms to open.

    "Hello, Microsoft - my console stopped working, says 'error code - pirating bastard' on the screen"

    "Don't worry sir/madam, an MPAA/RIAA/BPA official will be around to collect the money for all the pirate games/music/movies you've played on it and give you a restart code"

    "But you don't know who I am or where I live..."

    "Yes we do Dick Jones of 111 Acacia Avenue, with the floppy hair and cheap trainers. And that knocking you can hear is our enforcement team"

  • ps3owner #35 2 years ago

    thanks VIC. so it's hardware only then.

  • Mr_Bojangles #36 2 years ago

    Games (or any other media) being too expensive and therefore fair game is a pathetic excuse.

    I do not have the funds to buy Example A so therefore I am justified in stealing Example A.

    It doesn't matter if A is a single song or a £50 game, or even a car.

    In my opinion the Live account should be barred along with the IP address. No sympathy at all.

  • FTM #37 2 years ago

    abyss..its not a chip like the old ps2

    its a firmware item for the dvd drive so you cannot turn it off or on, which is why you have to keep the firmware upto date or microsoft catch up with it eventually and then they do the en mass bannings we see

    they have waited a while for this one so it had made people think they were safe so it has netted a large haul of swarthy pirates.
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 10:05

  • Mr_Bojangles #38 2 years ago

    In what respect?

  • JimWest #39 2 years ago

    I heard someone on the BBC website comments try and justify it by saying games where too expensive and I've seen a few comments like that on here. Disgusting excuse.

    I think Ferrari's are cool, but too expensive. Until they lower the price I'm going to just steal them, rather than not have what I can't afford! Is this ok?

  • ThisWillDestroyYou #40 2 years ago

    @everyone im doing a law degree, yes i should know better boohoo, need money to eat and pay fees, I bought GTA IV retail, GH3 and MW2(£26 hard not to) If you must know i also used boot discs with the Dreamcast, im probably to blame for its downfall, I also own 25 n64 cartridges, i never used to be a criminal!
    Im a reformed character now, honest guv, going straight, the world of trade ins and pre-owned games awaits me, i refuse to pay £45 for a videogame

  • VMerken #41 2 years ago

    So... you're only locked out of Xbox Live? Thus, if you do not use Xbox Live and use an off-line account, you can still play games on your pirated Xbox, or is the console effectively rendered "dead in the water"?

    Merely curious.
    Edited by 2 at 13/11/09 @ 10:11

  • penhalion #42 2 years ago

    My friends list shrunk a bit last week too. I didn't connect it with people getting banned until this article. heh :)

  • ThisWillDestroyYou #43 2 years ago

    you can still play games on the modded console, just not via live, although there are suggestions of save issues. You can't install to the hdd either. If you buy a new clean one you just recover your gamertag and your away, lose your saves obv.

  • skillian #44 2 years ago

    The level of righteous indignation is amusing.

    >Click Forum
    >Click TV
    >Read threads
    >Count hypocrites

  • RobotRocker #45 2 years ago

    I also think that the games are too expensive line is a ridiculous argument, as you don't see people stealing Bentley's because they think they cost too much.

    This is the worst fucking argument of all fucking time. Bentleys are high-end luxury versions of a common necessity in the modern world. Games are consumable disposable entertainment. NOT EVEN REMOTELY RELATED TO EACH OTHER.

    Games are far too expensive and I hope the banwave has showed the narcissistic fuckwit publishers that if you continue to gouge the consumer. They are just going to tell you to piss off up a hill. Granted, the 360 requires a ton more effort to pirate than knowing the dodgy guy up at the market or XTREMEFILESHAREZTORRENTS. But the fact is that one million people are caught but possibly another one or two million more are still pirating that they couldn't catch on this wave. And its going to continue, particularly when hackers find new ways to flash the software or even find ways to go undetected.

    But then the industry is full of morons who will just look at that, rub their hands with glee and think "Oh boy, they have to buy new consoles now. More money for us!". And the circle will continue and no one will learn anything.

    Edit: Since this is going to attract a ton of butthurt developers and holier than thou' commenter's. I never said once I was supporting piracy. The industry supports piracy through its idiocy and outright contempt for its customers. The poor guys at 2D Boy got destroyed by it due to the bigger companies fostering a DRM culture that pisses off consumers and made them victims because no one wants to take a chance on new software that installs shitware like Starforce on their PC that could potentially fuck it up.

    The industry should take a good hard look at themselves before starting to blame everyone else. Not like that's going to happen soon as again, narcissistic fuckwits.
    Edited by 2 at 13/11/09 @ 11:07

  • Emmit_Assassin #46 2 years ago

    People, don't go thinking this is just MS trying to 'do the right thing'.

    They know full well that most pirates will be buying a retail copy of MW2, and so to have their consoles banned means they'll be more likely to shell out for another console. I bet unit sales went up in the last couple of days.

    Sure, it is a signal to pirates, but someone will find a way around the bans at some point.

    I think they were right to ban them, whatever the reason, though. The quicker companies stop being pansies and combat piracy the better. Most pirates don't fear prosecution because they believe there is so much of it, and so many people doing it, that they couldn't possibly get everyone. The companies only target the suppliers, which is stupid as there is always someone willing to replace a supplier, or the supplier will simply move accounts, get new PC's/security etc... Get some balls, I say! Get everyone, lobby parliament for the police to be able to issue fines without courts to pirates. They do it with speeding tickets, why not this? There is plenty of evidence available, MS hold the name and address of every single pirate they banned.

    Fine em all!!!!!!!

  • TruSmiles #47 2 years ago

    I used to buy pirated games on the Dreamcast, all those years ago. My excuse was that I was a poor teenager and couldn't afford games, and the dodgy guy at the market every week was able to get import copies to me months before the UK would ever see them, like Phantasy Star Online, Rez, Samba de Amigo etc.

    Then the Dreamcast DIED!! :(

    I learnt my lesson and have never pirated a game since. I'm studying game design now, so I obviously want to contribute towards the industry that has given me so much pleasure, and which I wish to work in some day. I can appreciate how much effort and work goes into creating a game.

  • xentar #48 2 years ago

    i like the bannings, but i dont like that they keep the accounts intact and only want pirates to buy a new console to play online. To really punish people who are breaking rules they should simply ban the account too otherwise its just a way to sell more hardware for them. twats

  • JimWest #49 2 years ago

    Anyone else think RobotRocker is one of these people that got his console banned?

    The examples stated of bentleys and ferrari's are extreme, however are fair. As it has been stated you are stealing which is wrong and illegal. There is no justification for it. Videogames are a luxury good, not a neccesity, which you have no right to, so to claim it is ok because of cost, is deluded.

    Get a grip mate!

  • JensonJet #50 2 years ago

    The excuse that games are too expensive... or Developers are ripping us off, are absolutely pathetic.

    If anyone feels games are too expensive then they can't afford to game and there's a simple solution to that.

    Pirates can afford to buy games they simply choose not to. They want other fellow gamers to financially support their hobby.

    There's no two ways about it, they're absolute scumbags. I can only assume that if they thought they could get away with it, they'd plug an extension lead into their neighbour house to avoid paying for electricity. Or perhaps if they thought they'd not get caught would happily walk into people houses and raid their kitchens for food. It's not far-fetched to make this assumptions. There are people who understand fairness and work an honest life, and some people feel others owe them, that they deserve to live a slightly more privileged lifestyle. Absolute f*ckers and scumbags the lot of them.

  • RobotRocker #51 2 years ago

    @ JimWest

    My console is happily un-banned since I have never once let a pirated game near it. I have remained a Live subscriber since the original X-Box Beta and I lack the technical know how to even flash a drive anyway.

    So yes, I quite firmly have a grip on reality unlike a lot of people here.

    If anyone feels games are too expensive then they can't afford to game and there's a simple solution to that.

    Pray tell, what is this philanthropic solution to all gamers woes then?
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 10:48

  • kangarootoo #52 2 years ago

    @RobotRocker

    "This is the worst fucking argument of all fucking time. Bentleys are high-end luxury versions of a common necessity in the modern world. Games are consumable disposable entertainment. NOT EVEN REMOTELY RELATED TO EACH OTHER."

    This is all just waffle. If a bentley is a variant of a necessity, and a game is disposable entertainment, there is surely less justification for stealing the game than the bentley. By your own measure, the game is in no way a neccesity, not even a little bit.

    Regardless, the price angle is still utter rubbish. If something is too expensive for you to buy, you don't buy it. Its as simple as that. If the item in question is a TRUE neccesity (such as air or food) then a case might be made for stealing it to survive. But neither a car (even a crap one) nor a video game falls into that category.

    Nobody is getting shafted by apparently expensive video games. Gaming is a hobby we chose to follow. You don't see racing drivers complaining about the price of car racing.

    If you can't afford to sail yaughts for fun, you don't sail yaughts. If you can't afford to collect stamps for fun, you don't collect stamps. If you can't afford to play video games for fun, you don't play video games.

    People who say it is ok to steal things because they can't afford to buy them are just thieves like any other. It doesn't matter what the item is, and it doesn't matter what it costs.

  • jmg123 #53 2 years ago

    Good idea from M$ to let them hae their accounts back if they buy a new console. It will mean a lot of new sales.

  • xentar #54 2 years ago

    the argument about price is bull as even iphone games get pirated on a massive level

    edit: I will learn to type and speak english someday...
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 10:55

  • chrisjm #55 2 years ago

    should of reset the GS to 0 too

  • RobotRocker #56 2 years ago

    Nobody is getting shafted by apparently expensive video games. Gaming is a hobby we chose to follow. You don't see racing drivers complaining about the price of car racing.

    So you missed all those arguments regarding drivers feeling they are charged too much for FIA Licences then?

    This is such a wonderfully middle class argument too. "If you cant afford gaming, dont do it". Wow, how wonderfully exclusionary. Cant let the proles into our secret little club, oh no. Gaming is purely the pursuit of the bourgeoisie and it should stay that way.

    the argument about price as bull as even iphone games get pirated on a massive level

    Some pirates pirate like to fuck with the system. There's plenty of discourses regarding pirates even stealing free software to mess with the system (Yes, it happens). iPhone development is still profitable and as it improves and if Apple works with developers to work on security that doesnt fuck with the consumer. It will lessen over time.

  • metalangel #57 2 years ago

    *steals kangarootoo's air*

    It's justified. I need it more than him :p

  • TRUTH #58 2 years ago

    It's a simple fact you play pirate games you kill the industry, force prices up, destroy innovation, force companies to produce cheap simplistic (like Wii games) & easy games to develop; no more Modern Warfare 2, Fallout 3, Uncharted, Mass Effect, Batman AA, GT, Forza, Fable, Halo, God Of War, Gears Of War, Oblivion...etc etc!

    Those people who say games are to expensive then pirate force companies huge losses to lost revenue by pirated gaming. This then effects the cost to recap the lost money by pushing prices up... Also the highest AAA title is usually £37.99, people who pay higher is there own fault: SHOP AROUND!. Do remember the money given to seller is 100% pocketed by them. No tax is payed to go back into public services (police, ambulance, trains, jobs etc etc), as well as investment in business - this causing billions in lost revenue causing your tax to go up, prices go up, cost of living goes up, public services suffer, business suffer, jobs get lost etc etc...and the pirate seller still sells and laughs - thanks to the buyers!

    Remember games usually only have one source of income - the sales of the game. Nothing else. If you want to see the end of gaming and great games, continue to pirate...or look forward to newer greater games, by investing in the genuine product by buying new - it's up to you!
    Edited by 2 at 13/11/09 @ 11:22

  • bad09 #59 2 years ago

    "This is such a wonderfully middle class argument too. "If you cant afford gaming, dont do it". Wow, how wonderfully exclusionary. Cant let the proles into our secret little club, oh no. Gaming is purely the pursuit of the bourgeoisie and it should stay that way. "

    It's pretty much the capitalist worlds policy on everything (UK housing market anyone?) so why not games as well I suppose :)

  • Spekingur #60 2 years ago

    In some countries "piracy" is possibly somewhat legal - due to laws not being completely clear. I would also think that banning consoles (which is what they are doing, not account bans) might be breaking some privacy rules in some countries? Not sure.
    Also, the way MS is doing this is basically detecting what firmware is installed on your XBox DVD drive - it's not about detecting pirated games - only the hardware that MIGHT be used to play them.

    Here, for example, MS has no XBox support - since my country isn't recognised as an XBox country. Heck, even their main MS office here is nothing but a branch-out from Denmark. And since there is no official XBox support here, shops don't carry XBox products or carry very few. If they carry any these are often overpriced quite a bit causing people to try and find other ways to acquire said item. In return the shops complain that no one shops their XBox products and they stop selling them - funny that, since game-wise they normally never carry the most popular games (don't buy in new stock) and have like 100pcs of Magdagascar 2 on full price and Kameo on full price as well. No wonder shops - and the whole country - is going bankrupt :p

    I might add that the XBox community here estimates that between 80-90% of XBox owners here have a modified DVD drive (or XBox if you will). This basically means that MS has almost banned a country... :o
    I also think that this holier-than-thou attitude people are showing here is just plain hypocrisy.

    Edit: I am also wondering what would happen if we would ever get a replicator-thingy from Star Trek. Besides the fact that governments and corporations would try to keep out of the hands of the public, there would be a very large outcry from basically everyone who is trying to sell a product. Someone who grows apples will claim copyright infringement because he believes his apple was 'replicated'.
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 11:23

  • Vroom #61 2 years ago

    I dunno about 80-90% of xbox users having a modded drive?

  • Spekingur #62 2 years ago

    In my country. Which quite possibly not the same as yours. Thought about that?

  • chrisjm #63 2 years ago

    I think he means in (im guessing) Iceland (the country, not the shop!)

  • Spekingur #64 2 years ago

    Yessir.

  • RobotRocker #65 2 years ago

    @ TRUTH

    Where did you copy and paste that from? ELSPA?

  • kangarootoo #66 2 years ago

    @RobotRocker

    "This is such a wonderfully middle class argument too. "If you cant afford gaming, dont do it". Wow, how wonderfully exclusionary. Cant let the proles into our secret little club, oh no. Gaming is purely the pursuit of the bourgeoisie and it should stay that way."

    Oh stop being such a child about it and take the chip off your shoulder. Trying to make this some kind of class issue is a feeble diversion.

    What you are basically saying is that you object to is the purchase of expensive things being restricted to the rich. Now that might sound all nice and righteous, but the issue at the heart of all of that is that things cost money and so it logically follows you need to have money in order to buy things (or you steal them).

    That is just bloody economics mate. Its no more or less complex than that. You might well wish to argue for a redistribution of world wealth, and I might well agree with you, but that is an entirely seperate debate (and you can be sure that if there was a global redistribution of wealth, nobody here would be better off and nobody would be buying video games).

    If you want to campaign for the abolition of monetary system then be my guest, but it won't make one iota of difference whether you pay for your video games in cash or turnips or sexual favours.

    And you think the guys making the video games are sat there drinking champaign and eating caviaar?


    The very worst kind of pirate (and my hands aren't completely clean, lets be clear about it) is one that pretends there is some logic or justice behind their actions. My suggestion to people like that is just get the balls f*cking big enough to say they pinch games because you prefer that to paying for them, instead of trying to pretend that it is some kind of justified right.



    "Some pirates pirate like to fuck with the system"

    People that talk about "the system" as if it is some specific entity are just insecure people with a "them and us" complex and an inability to deal with the set backs of daily life (such as not being able to have a video game whenever you want it). There is no such thing as "the system".

  • Spekingur #67 2 years ago

    What piracy will affect is the way we get our games. Also, making prices higher 'to counter' piracy is quite stupid - if anything then lowering them will draw more people into buying the game. There will always be those who pirate, mostly just because they can - others out of neccessity and then those who are just so used to do it that it's their main way of acquiring things. Piracy isn't exactly forced upon these people but behaviour of publishers doesn't help them either.

  • TeaFiend #68 2 years ago

    Games should be cheaper? You know the publisher gets less than a quarter of the retail price? The rest is not the greedy games companies but the stores needing to cover costs and make profit.

    Should a Rolex be cheaper as I can pick up a cheap watch for £10? Same as you could pick up an older game or a bad game released at below £30, should they all be cheaper?

  • WinterSnowblind #69 2 years ago

    If you can't afford gaming, it doesn't have to simply be a case of "not doing" it, you can simply wait for games to drop in price, which tends to happen moderatly quickly these days. Games like ODST which were only released last month are already down to £25, wait for the sales after Christmas and you'll easily get it for £15. Other things like Lego Indiana Jones and Mini Ninja's which are aimed at a younger audiance seem to be sold for just £30 by default now as well.

    The guy that was on BBC news trying to gain sympathy because he was looking forward to MW2 and then was "gutted" to learn his console was banned and is now jumping over to the PS3 is just ridiculous. What's he going to do with a PS3 when he realises he actually has to buy games? If somebody was stealing books from a book store, the BBC wouldn't have even giving him the time of day, I don't see why this should be treated differently.

    I can understand complaints that games are too expensive these days, it's something I most definitely agree with, even I tend to wait for most games to drop in price nowadays, unless it's something I badly want to play. But that's it, all you have to do is wait for the games to reach a more affordable price point. Outright stealing them is not a solution.

  • kangarootoo #70 2 years ago

    "Also, making prices higher 'to counter' piracy is quite stupid - if anything then lowering them will draw more people into buying the game"

    People say this often, but I don't think it is that straightforward (or surely someone would have tried it by now, and proved the point).

    Price is a factor, but I believe it sits alongside how easy it is pirate a game. If you look at the cost of PC games, console disc games and console cartridge games over the years, I believe there is an association between ease of piracy and cost. Only an apparent association mind you, which is far from being proof of any kind.

  • helo555 #71 2 years ago

    To, clarify what "piracy" is, it is a license violation, not theft has you never actually own a game, you buy a license for it.

  • Nithron #72 2 years ago

    The excuse that games are too expensive works - if you cannot buy the game at all. Thus, pirating it does not cost the publisher a sale, and there are no negative consequences for anyone involved. Bonus points if you then buy the game when it's cheap later.

    This is what I used to do when I was younger, and just plain couldn't afford any games. At all. I'm sure a lot of pirates are actually just poor kids, and calling them "scumbags" seems a bit extreme to me.

  • xentar #73 2 years ago

    @helo553 - this is quite a tiring argument. Surely from legal point of view its not theft per se as it is quilified otherwise in the law code. In reality its still stealing no matter how fancy name you give it.

    To be honest, downloading copyrighted content is something almost everyone is doing form time to time, be it porn, movies, tv shows... we all do it. And its wrong. Sometimes we can defend ourselves with "this stuff is not even being sold in my country and Apple/whoever is not letting me to buy it but still wrong. And there may be consequances. being banned from Xbox Live is perfectly fair pubishment. It is not like you have to pay thousand pounds for each song or TV episode found on your computer. In this regard, thanks god that Microsoft is doing only this (should ban the live accounts too imho), its much fairer than seeking punitive damages and thats why much more people are supporting this over RIAA lawsuits

  • RobotRocker #74 2 years ago

    @ kangarootoo

    I've been sitting here the last few minutes trying to understand the absolutely stunning ignorance of that statement.

    So you are saying that piracy is absolutely not a class issue despite the previous two generations piracy problems coming about due to class issues and the inability of the working class and to afford £40 videogames.

    And that its just economics and that the publishers can charge what they want because its produces the maximum of profit while simultaneously fucking over the consumer.

    And the concept of "the system" is a false construct despite the existence of a "system" being a valid philosophical discourse and the refusal to admit that some pirates simply hack for the challenge of it?

    OK. Can you give me the address for this la-la-dreamland so I can visit sometime?

  • kangarootoo #75 2 years ago

    @RobotRocker

    "So you are saying that piracy is absolutely not a class issue despite the previous two generations piracy problems coming about due to class issues and the inability of the working class and to afford £40 videogames."

    When it comes to the basic principle of people not buying something because they don't have enough money, class is irrelevant. Class boundaries aren't lines cut into metal you know. You don't suddenly graduate from being working class to middle class and suddenly find you can afford all the game you want.

    You talk as if there are two distinct species of people, which is perhaps how you see it - again I refer to the chip on your shoulder.

    If "working classes" can't afford a £40 video game, they don't buy a £40 video game. Just like if a millionaire can't afford a fleet of expensive yaughts, they can't use that as excuse for stealing them.


    Quite simply, you are saying that inability to afford something is an excuse for stealing it. THAT is nonsense, and that has nothing whatsoever to do with class. Every item has its own price, but that £40 or £40m. Whatever the cost of something, it is either within or without the budget of any given individual. It not a social phenomena, it is just basic maths.


    And as for the "stunning ignorance", and the "address of lala land". You aren't the first person ever to start increasing the proportion of insults in their posts when they find they are unable to respond intellectually to someone pointing out the obvious holes in their argument. I don't mind whether you respond with facts or insults - how your choice reflects on you has nothing to do with me.



    Edit:

    "And the concept of "the system" is a false construct despite the existence of a "system" being a valid philosophical discourse and the refusal to admit that some pirates simply hack for the challenge of it? "

    No doubt many hackers do what they do for the challenge of it, but that isn't what you said. A hacker that hacks for the challenge of it is doing just that, facing a challenge for the fun of it. When the same hacker makes "fucking with the system" their primary motivation, they are essentially hitting back at world into which they do not feel they can fit.

    That is a social failing on their part. I am not saying that the solution is to "fit in", but that a more socially balanced person would recognise their difference from the rest of the social majority is just a normal part of life that EVERYONE experices from time to time, but not feel intimidated by that difference or feel the need to "fuck with" the social majority. The whole "fuckw with the system" concept is based on the idea that a clear line can be drawn between "them and us". This is again a fantasy in the mind of the socially inept.


    "the existence of a "system" being a valid philosophical discourse"

    Explain to me please what on earth that means. I do hope that you aren't suggesting that defining something as "valid philosophical discourse" means it is also deemed to be fact in reality. If so, I think you might have just killed all philosophical debate throughout the world, as clearly no more question remains over what IS and what ISN'T. Powerful stuff.
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 12:48

  • jamespo #76 2 years ago

    wonder how many people have adblock enabled for eurogamer...

  • The-Bodybuilder #77 2 years ago

    I'll probably get negged hard for this, but here we go...
    I'm glad MS have done this, these pirates are just a bunch of crooks and deserve an even greater punishment.

    HOWEVER, I do sense hypocrisy in this place. To all the people professing their hatred for pirates stealing from the gaming community, how many of you watch movies online? Or downloading songs? Aren't you stealing from the movie and music industry too?

  • kangarootoo #78 2 years ago

    @The Bodybuilder

    I don't hate pirates. I just dislike pirates that pretend there is some justified reason for doing that they do.

  • DeltaBravoNiner #79 2 years ago

    All these comments appearing over many forums about the chippers "Savings" are irrelevant! "I saved thousands on the price of new games over the period my xbox(es) were chipped." No you didn't!

    How many of these banned users realistically would have bought all those games they had cracked, had they been paying for them legitimately - I'd bet a very small percentage, if not none!

    It's pure greed, I'm going to have this game downloaded just for the hell of it, load it up and play one level - realise it's crap and never play it again. Thats what demos are for. So no they are not saving thousands, they ARE costing the software developers millions though. I have no sympathy for them. Good riddance.
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 12:57

  • kangarootoo #80 2 years ago

    "ANyone who assumes every pirate would buy anything over the number of games they already buy is getting too into themselves."

    Anyone who assumes that would be wrong, but equally anyone who assumes that piracy does not in part account for lost revenue is also wrong.

    Both are inaccurate extremes, they are simply at opposite ends of the discussion. Both suggestions should be discarded as untrue and unhelpful.

  • makeamazing #81 2 years ago

    I don't hate pirates. I just dislike pirates that pretend there is some justified reason for doing that they do.

    Well I am happy to say I hate pirates and this serves them right..

    I know guys who make software who work in a home office and the software they make is their ownly income, I can say piracy has a massive impact on them. The excuses the pirates give are really bad, whats worse is the pirates then come and ask for support of the pirated software. I am pretty sure the pirates wouldnt like someone going to their place of work and then stopping them getting paid. So to me piracy will always be theft, regardless how some people try to spin it.

    So good on MS, shame they didnt ban their accounts and remove their points. But still this is progress.

  • FTM #82 2 years ago

    its an excellent point deltabravoniner

    they are not lost sales as they would never have bought them in the first place

    it goes back to the earliset days of home computing..i had hundreds of games for my atari800xl and then for my amiga and my ST

    but I probably only played a fraction of them as the rest were ppor or just were not my type of game

    nowadays there are demos so you can see what you are getting up front, so I choose my games and buy them. people with huge pirated game collections would not have bought 90% of them in the first place and probably try them once then put them away in a cd wallet never to be used again..its pure greed

  • Nithron #83 2 years ago

    @DeltaBravoNiner and FTM

    What? If they're not lost sales then how are they costing anyone anything?

  • darleysam #84 2 years ago

    The whiny comments on the BBC from all the people upset that their console was banned from live made me want to punch my screen with impotent rage. Oh no! The big bad Micro$oft man stopped me from taking content for free! But there's so many new games and I simply can't afford the price of playing them all. It simply isn't fair! I may have to go buy a new console now, since I've got my lovely 60" HDTV just sat idle with nothing to display :(

    Oh diddums, you poor, tortured, impatient, pathetic excuse for an organism.

  • RustyBullet #85 2 years ago

    Ban them all. its theft pure and simple. Pitty they didnt get them all though.

  • RobotRocker #86 2 years ago

    @ kangarootoo

    Your arguments are distilling down to "I can afford £40, fuck everyone else who can't". There are tons of social and technology issues involved with piracy. But then, I don't blame you if you want to swallow the shit ELSPA put out constantly. Easier on the conscience instead of tackling the root problem.

    Also, please point out where I said "If you cant afford it, you should steal it". You are approaching Fox News levels of cognitive dissonance in an attempt to prove a point.

    The whole "fuckw with the system" concept is based on the idea that a clear line can be drawn between "them and us". This is again a fantasy in the mind of the socially inept.

    Okay. Just remember that next time you go to an anti-war etc, protest.

    Explain to me please what on earth that means. I do hope that you aren't suggesting that defining something as "valid philosophical discourse" means it is also deemed to be fact in reality. If so, I think you might have just killed all philosophical debate throughout the world, as clearly no more question remains over what IS and what ISN'T. Powerful stuff

    "The System" is a societal and political construct in which many people believe that government and society is controlling their lives and hence they must rebel to feel a sense of freedom. See the "tea party" protests in the US for a good example. Its well discussed in literature.

    You are welcome by the way.
    Edited by 2 at 13/11/09 @ 13:30

  • kangarootoo #87 2 years ago

    "they are not lost sales as they would never have bought them in the first place"

    We need to stop saying this.

    SOME of them ARE lost sales. And SOME of them AREN'T lost sales.

    For those people who say piracy is dishonest, it is probably enough to know that some of them ARE.

  • canIdoyabombsforya #88 2 years ago

    You can't stop the pirates, but fair play to MS for banning them from Live, IMO a life ban would have made a better statement though. MS have given them a chance. Overall piracy and on a slightly dfferent tangent homebrew, still sells a lot of hardware, the glorious xbmc helped shift a lot of original Xboxes, and now shifts mini PCs.

    As much as the big 3 claim they are selling us what we want, theyre not, they just want $$$ from the mass consumer. There's a lot of talented people who make very little, or don't want to make anything from the industry, who could give the gaming enthusiast a better deal than the big 3 do. Most homebrew scenes come up with better interfaces than the big companies for one example.

    Lets be rational for a minute, the average gaming enthusiast with a couple of handhelds, and at least a couple of consoles and a PC in the same house will ony get a certain amount of cash and time to spend on games. MS, Sony and Nintendo did lure these people in to buy the new hardware with new promises after all.

    I know there are a some gaming freaks who will buy 200-300 games per generation but I imagine they are the minority.
    Downloading ROMS can be more of a hobby in itself or a way of checking out or demoing games, it can be addictive, who's responsible for that addiction?.
    At the end of the day the Music, Movie and gaming industries are asking for the right to make a killing, not a living. There's a lot of greed even in the gamng industry, where the real hardworkers arnt treated all that special.

    There are plenty of freeware games out there for the PC and some of the developers who are often strapped for cash ask for £1 donations still get bugger all. But then a lot of shit sells on the iphone.

    I've forgotten what my point is, but it's a funny old world.

    Here's a free well done old retro Spectrum game, apparantly it's had 3,000 downloads and the guy has made £4. If he worked for the big corps coding games he would probably get to see his bosses selling millions in shares every year, meanwhile the other crowd still want stuff for free,

    [link url=http://www.retroactionmag azine.com/retronews/cobex--cruising-on-broadway-extra-releas ed
    ]http://ww w.retroactionmagazine.com/retro...[/link]

  • kangarootoo #89 2 years ago

    @RobotRocker

    Good God! Either you haven't read a single word I've written, or I don't know what...


    "I can afford £40, fuck everyone else who can't"

    I have never once said that. Not once. Never hinted at it, never suggested it, not a bit of it. Indeed, I have never made this personal or in any way about me and my own spending habits (I'm not as rich you clearly think I am, and I can't just buywhatever game I would like without considering my gas bill).

    The quote above is the chip on your shoulder wispering in your ear when someone tells you that you shouldn't steal something just because you can afford it. You obviously take this very personally, and it is blinding you to everything else.


    You are beyond reasoned debate. You read what you want to read. You can't even respond with meaningful sentences (I mean, wtf is "Okay. Just remember that next time you go to an anti-war etc, protest." all about?). I probably shall remember it, wherever I happen to be. Happy? Of course not.

  • kangarootoo #90 2 years ago

    @RobotRocker

    ""The System" is a societal and political construct in which many people believe that government and society is controlling their lives and hence they must rebel to feel a sense of freedom"

    So you take one meaningless phrase (the system) and replace it with another meaningless phrase (society).

    If you want to talk about whether the government is controlling our lives, then thats great. We can both discuss that and it might well be interesting... but what does it have to do with the discussion at hand? You say that some people pirate games to hit back at the system, but I thought the people that made games were developers. Are we now suggesting that its the government that amkes games, and piracy is one way of seizing back power?


    And let me draw particular attention to one specific bit of your quote.

    "many people believe that government and society is controlling their lives and hence they must rebel to feel a sense of freedom"

    These people have to rebel to FEEL a sense of freedom. Not to have freedom, but to feel a sense of it. I don't disagree with you about their existence, I just call some of them (thats SOME of them, before you go off on another bonkers quoting/misunderatanding mission) socially inept.

    There is ALWAYS someone controlling your life. If you aren't happy with that, live on a desert island. If you want to live in civilisation, deal with the fact that you can't control everything that affects you (because of course, if you could, someone else would have their own personal control removed to give you yours).
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 13:42

  • TheBoyChris #91 2 years ago

    [link url=http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=l5SmrHNWhak
    ]http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=l5SmrHNWhak
    [/link]

    "...You wouldn't steal a car..."
    "...You wouldn't steal a handbag..."

    If people could download them, I bet they would...

  • kangarootoo #92 2 years ago

    "Not an opinion I personally share exactly, but even I can't deny the logic or facts of the matter."

    I could ;)

    If you aren't buying games, MS probably don't care what console you own. And most of those saying they will buy a PS3 instead are just blowing off smoke (AND MS probably don't care given their pirating history).

  • IneptPercy #93 2 years ago

    As it is there is no excuses, I have stopped my gold member ship as I don't play online anymore but also decided to stop paying through the nose for games.

    I recently got Gears of war 2 on ebay for £11.00 and I have just finished it and its going back on ebay. In doing this I am making small losses (or sometimes profits). I am pretty much gaming for free and legitimately.

  • TheBoyChris #94 2 years ago

    Also - as a game developer myself - if you can't afford the price tag decided upon by my company for the game I've made, then I don't want you playing my game. If you don't agree with that price tag, feel free to tell me and maybe we can negotiate, but if you steal my game and quote some self righteous bullshit about how games are priced too high, you can get to fuck.

    I worked hard to make it. If you can't afford it, don't fucking well steal it. Believe it or not, games are not your god given right.

    /rant.

  • rprince #95 2 years ago

    I didn't realise the 360 hardware was now profit making. Is this true? The morality of banning people so they have to buy a new console (which they profit from) is somewhat questionable. Is there a way of unmodding the console?

    A modded 360 amnesty might be a more suitable approach: let the sinners repent!

    Or maybe I'm being too kind to the criminals?

  • skillian #96 2 years ago

    I've pirated quite a few games and bought a lot more. I don't feel guilty about it, and I don't feel the need to justify it to any of the slightly sanctimonious people in here.

    My advice is forget the law, forget the preaching and just do what you think is right. Just like smoking marijuana or speeding, it may be illegal, and people may say that by doing so you are funding people-smuggling or risking the lives of innocents, but we all make judgement calls every day. This is just another one you have to make.

  • old_skool #97 2 years ago

    I wonder how effective the bans will be, yes pirates should be punished but these guys/girls will probably flog the console on Ebay or turn the consoles in at the store they bought and said it had a hardware failure.
    Pirates should be punished but maybe this isn't the correct strategy. There's also ways to circumvent your security checks, and in a month or so someone would have figured out how to bypass MS system checks.It would have been better to go after the distributors of the pirated games.

  • canIdoyabombsforya #98 2 years ago

    "Of course if you read the forums threads at places like xbox-scene, you'd realise this has backfired quite spectacularly on Microsoft if the real plan was to sell new consoles; growing numbers post every day that instead if they're buying a console they have to legally buy games for... they'll buy a PS3 instead, citing the price is so close that the Blu Ray functionality and free online gaming as fairly valid points for doing so."

    Sounds like childish backlash bullshitters to me.
    They are savvy enough to mod an xbox and all the bullshit involved in copying games (when I last checked) but they are not savvy enough to buy a £50 HD media player and rip off blu-ray isos from torrent or easynews? but wuold rather blow £200+ on a PS3 and pay an extra tenner per movie for HD? What a thick bunch. I guess someone else modded their 360 and they buy games down the market with all the other scumbags, or in turkey.

  • Grom #99 2 years ago

    @RobotRocker

    If we were having this argument on EuroBaker.net and you were complaining about the price of bread, or EuroEnergy.net and complaining about the price of gas or electricity I could totally see your point.

    But games are not bread. They are not food. They are not a necessity or a utility. They are not a "universal right". You do not NEED games to SURVIVE. They are a luxury entertainment item, and if you need something to fill your spare time but cannot afford full price games then either buy games second hand, or when they get cheaper, or buy some other form of entertainment which you can afford.

    But to argue that because you want games yet cannot afford them, then stealing them is ok is just evidence of a ridiculously loose set of morals. It's completely indefensible, and there is no "class war" here.

  • canIdoyabombsforya #100 2 years ago

    rprince
    "I didn't realise the 360 hardware was now profit making. Is this true"

    not a lot, there are still a lot of things to consider, shippng , storage, retail cut

    this is quite old

    http://ww w.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/...

  • VicViper #101 2 years ago

    @Grom

    Another brillant justification I seen a lot recently is because some games are just not very good that is reason enough pirate them as why should you spend money on something that might not be good, of course ignoring the mirad of game information that saturates the internet that would help you avoid said purchases.
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 15:11

  • kangarootoo #102 2 years ago

    I'm always confused as to why people would want to play games they think are rubbish.

    The way I see it, you either want to spend your previous life minutes playing a game so you pay for it, or you would rather spend those minutes watching the ducks in the park so you you don't.

  • VMerken #103 2 years ago

    Hacking a game for the challenge and the kick of it is all the logic one needs to justify it. Whether or not that's a good thing (or the fact that this hacked code may be spread to the public), is up to personal opinion.

    Personally, I think it's not that bad how boxed games are priced, currently. That way, you can probably only afford a few games per year, so you'll make sure you'll only buy the very best ones for your tastes. You'll buy the ones which will last you a very long time. You'll replay those games. You'll discover different, fun ways to play through the games again. You'll pick those games apart until they give up their very last secrets. It'll be a much richer experience than buying tons of games and never getting around to finishing any of them because you simply do not have the time to do so. Or you do finish them, just once, and move on, barely having time to let the game sink in.

    And besides, it's not like there aren't any alternatives to getting your game on at a cheaper price. One, be patient (because, let's face it and be honest with yourself, you're a whiny little snot crying "But I want it NOOOWWWWW mommy!" all over again otherwise) - after a while, you can get most games really cheap in the stores. Recently, I've seen S.T.A.L.K.E.R., the Witcher and the Orange Box (in their original, plastic wrapped retail boxes) going for €4.99 a piece. That's a LOT of gaming for €14.97, guys. Two, borrow it from a friend or relative. You can "pool" a pretty impressive collection that way. Three, buy it second hand at a discount (while you still can because as you know, software companies are in the process of destroying that market).

    Right? Right. Please note that I'm talking about boxed copies here, of games where you actually own one license indefinitely. In the case of the new generation of games where you pay full price for a temporary license of a virtual copy of a game, those can either halve their 1st day prices immediately or go fork themselves.
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 15:17

  • skillian #104 2 years ago

    Two, borrow it from a friend or relative. You can "pool" a pretty impressive collection that way.

    You know, seeing as we are talking about morals and law here, there is no difference between pirating a game and borrowing it from your friend (apart from the law) of course. In both cases the developers make no money, and the person gets to play without paying for it.

    Lots of talk about this being ridiculously loose morals and unjustifiable, but when you sit down and think about it you realise that pirating a game you weren't going to buy anyway has exactly the same effect as not borrowing it (or even just not buying it in the first place).

  • Shadders #105 2 years ago

    What about pirating a game that you were going to buy? I think that's what most people have a problem with...

  • IneptPercy #106 2 years ago

    By all means a banned console will still work, you just can't use xbox live. So if you wish to play online you need a legit console and games.

    I don't think this will affect case mods etc, As far as microsoft know my xbox is still beige/white, I may have swapped the case but the hardware is exactly the same just moved.

    Its no loss Microsoft in the respect of these people weren't going to pay for games etc so not many of them are going to buy games for a PS3.

    I guess most will carry on not paying for games and just be stuck offline.

    I don't know what the fuss is about, Microsoft have been doing this since the original xbox days.

  • bloodflowers #107 2 years ago

    Serves them right. Some people need to learn that games, music and films don't just magically spring into creation for free.

    As for one of the comments above that people who weren't going to buy it anyway don't cost the company any money by pirating... Such a stupid thing to say. Some might not have bought it, but some definitely would. Regardless of the number, that's more than zero extra sales.

    If you don't pay you're not entitled to play. Go freeload elsewhere.
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 15:48

  • skillian #108 2 years ago

    What about pirating a game that you were going to buy? I think that's what most people have a problem with...

    Well I certainly agree there is zero moral justification there. But I'd say most here are arguing against piracy full stop (not that there's anything wrong with that).

    I was more addressing points like "if you can't afford the price tag decided upon by my company for the game I've made, then I don't want you playing my game." Again, that's a perfectly valid point of view, but I'm pointing out the only difference to him between someone pirating his game and someone not buying it in the first place is that is that he gets an extra pair of eyes (and hands) on his work.

  • skillian #109 2 years ago

    As for one of the comments above that people who weren't going to buy it anyway don't cost the company any money by pirating... Such a stupid thing to say. Some might not have bought it, but some definitely would.

    Well of course, I thought I addressed that. I was talking about specific examples, not justifying all piracy by cherry-picking the cases where it does little/no harm.

  • Grom #110 2 years ago

    @skillian

    No - if I borrow a game from a friend then that denies him the right to play the game for as long as I have it; we can't for example then play a multiplayer match together. If I pirated a game then we can both use it at once, and there is a loss there. That single instance of the game is now multiple copies.

    It's this distinction which causes so much of the problem of people not seeing anything wrong in software piracy.

  • skillian #111 2 years ago

    if I borrow a game from a friend then that denies him the right to play the game for as long as I have it; we can't for example then play a multiplayer match together. If I pirated a game then we can both use it at once, and there is a loss there. That single instance of the game is now multiple copies.

    This makes no sense I'm afraid, unless you are suggesting that the person I'm borrowing it from would go out and buy a second copy to use. Yes, someone would be deprived of the game, but the developer is not being deprived of any money in either case.

    If I pirated a game then we can both use it at once, and there is a loss there.

    Is there? What is the loss there? (Remember we are talking about a specific example where they wouldn't have bought it if they couldn't borrow it from a friend, pirate it or otherwise play it without paying.)
    Edited by 3 at 13/11/09 @ 16:03

  • VMerken #112 2 years ago

    @Skillian
    Cool, you remind me of a 2K Games technical support moderator from the 2K Games Bioshock forums who once wrote: "The other way to view this, is one USER has purchased the game (Bioshock -ed). Not the whole family. So why should your brother play for free"?

    You also remind me of Sony BMG's chief anti-piracy lawyer who went on the record with this: "When an individual makes a copy of a song for himself, I suppose we can say he stole a song. Making a copy of a purchased song is just a nice way of saying 'steals just one copy'".

    I guess it's time for biometric identification prior to playing a game, then, because we sure can't have friends or relatives having a go at the game only you paid for, now can we? And by golly, prior to playing Guitar Hero with your friends, make sure everyone paid their entrance fees, right? And heck, I guess everyone in the family using the refridgerator should pay for it again.

    But I have to say, it's interesting to see how people are gradually starting to find the above quotations acceptable and fair. I'm curious how that's going to play out in the future. However, the future isn't here as far as I know, there's no biometric identification in place yet and I'll be more than happy to lend a game to a friend or relative if he/she asks for it.
    Edited by 2 at 13/11/09 @ 16:09

  • skillian #113 2 years ago

    @VMerken

    Don't get me wrong, I am very much against piracy in general and think it is very damaging to the music, video and software industries.

    However I have and still do sometimes pirate various forms of media. Many people might see this as gross hypocracy, but as I've tried to illustrate above, if you think about the situation and are entirely honest with yourself then some piracy is justifiable (to me at least) at a personal level.

    Many people just don't accept that grey area, but for me it's clear that it exists.
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 16:08

  • Spekingur #114 2 years ago

    Sorry, but yes, if games would be cheaper (and easier to access) piracy would most likely not be or have been as large as it is today. Same might go with movies. Many have just grown used to being able to get stuff like this from the internet - they aren't going to quit doing it so easily.

    As for XBL and machine bans - if anything, having access to Live on the machine was keeping some people from going completely bonkers in the usage of copied games. Now there are no such restraints for these people.
    Also, being banned is not a fair punishment if said ban is a violation to laws (privacy laws). The way MS is detecting and deciding what machines are 'illegal' and using that info for bans is by reading information from the DVD drive. I'm pretty sure that in some countries this might fall under being illegal even if you agree to some terms and things when you join XBL. Laws of the country overrule the laws set by a corporation. Not saying that MS shouldn't but disputing the legality of how.

    Technically it would be the same as a Win OS reading the firmware of the DVD drive in your computer and then, if it detects something that it doesn't want, disabling all internet possibilities in the OS.

  • Nithron #115 2 years ago

    skillian's right. Piracy in general is bad, obviously, and MS are right to ban people who copy their games from Live. It's their service after all.

    People are overreacting a little though. Putting everyone that's ever copied anything into a category and calling them "scum" and miscellaneous other insults is a bit harsh. I'm pretty sure the people getting quoted who copied "300+" games are the minority here.

  • Grom #116 2 years ago

    @skillian

    Surely it's simple - if there's an original disc of the game and copying is impossible, then as long as I borrow the game off my friend he cannot play it.

    Yet if I copy his game then there are now two versions of the game and we can now both play at once, an ability that has value (i.e. it's 'better' that we are both able to play the game). So copying the game has enabled me to get something for nothing, and the developer loses out.

    (Remember we are talking about a specific example where they wouldn't have bought it if they couldn't borrow it from a friend, pirate it or otherwise play it without paying.)

    Well in that case I wonder why they need to play the game? It must have some value, otherwise why bother playing it? Why bother taking the time to torrent it and burn the disc? If it has some value to them then they should wait until it costs that much. There's no moral grey area, no magic point where piracy suddenly becomes ok just because the price is a little higher than what the pirate considers a fair exchange for the game.

  • VMerken #117 2 years ago

    @Spekingur
    As someone who has been there in the heydays of the c64, back when full price games that cost €19.99 were deluxe "comes with a T-shirt" editions (regular editions were a - even for the time - cheap €9.99 or less), back when developers where begging everyone and their dog to "Don't Copy that Floppy!" because copying floppies was really easy, I don't quite agree.

    As someone of that era, I am of the opinion that pricing only mildly affects the amount of pirates sailing on the pirate ship. A far more potent factor, I think, is the "ease" with which software can be cracked and the "ease" with which a distribution network can be created.

    The act of preventing cracking and piracy is a fascinating area of research, some interesting things are happening, and I think it's high time smart people come up with solid laws dictating the rules of this game. Fair to both us and the industry. However, those smart law makers currently appear to be more interested in drama and killerspiele, almost oblivious to the kind of earthquake digital distribution will be.

    @Grom
    Entertain the idea that some people might not want to play games, but they still want to have copies because they are collectors (inherent human instinct). It's quite feasible that there are people out there who collect the retail versions and all the circulating pirated copies of games simply because they want to have it all.
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 16:51

  • kangarootoo #118 2 years ago

    "Sorry, but yes, if games would be cheaper (and easier to access) piracy would most likely not be or have been as large as it is today"

    I'm really not sure that is true (the bit about price at any rate). I think the main reason piracy exists is the means of accessing pirated material, not the cost of the legitimate article.

    Games now, taking into account inflation, are cheaper now than they have ever been. When I was a nipper a top end Atari 2600 cartridge could cost near to £40. Typical C64 games cost around a tenner and a PC game might launch today at £25 (whereas a Mars bar over the same 25 year period has inflated maybe 400%).

    Before the internet became commonplace, pirating games meant swapping casettes in the playground. It might have seemed widespread at a personal level, but it didn't dent the industry the way it does now as the ratio of sales to copies was much lower.


    I'm sure there are studies (which I feebly can't bring to mind right now) that have shown people will pirate content even if the legit version costs a pittance (like a £1.50 iPhone app for a 30p mp3). That once someone makes the mental decision that it is ok to get something for free, the cost of original article ceases to be relevant to them, however low it may be.

  • kangarootoo #119 2 years ago

    @VMerken

    Crikey. You pirated my thoughts! :)

  • Spekingur #120 2 years ago

    @VMerken:

    I agree that there are things happening in the distribution business - the way we view Steam nowadays on the PC is the first step. The thing is, on pricing, is that as it gets steeper and steeper (because that's what publishers seem to see as one of the way to counter piracy) it will cause more and more people not willing to pay the steep price. Even if you just get a few more sales by lowering the price it still means that those few are not pirating it. At least, that's how I view it - seeing as how many games I have bought on Steam in the last two years.

    @Grom:
    Skillian is not talking about who can or can't play it but what the publisher will get from the individual. Also, all areas are grey - things aren't black and white.

    @kangarotoo:
    I agree. Some people will download anything and everything. But not all 'pirates' are the same. Putting all of them into one group is not exactly right - if that's the correct word.
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 16:58

  • VMerken #121 2 years ago

    @Kangarootoo
    Ahem. I was here one post earlier and thus unaware of your comment. In fact, it is I who could argue that you read my post and then pirated it =P.
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 16:55

  • kangarootoo #122 2 years ago

    @VMerken

    I know, I was kidding. It took me the 4 mins to type out my post :)

  • kangarootoo #123 2 years ago

    "What has the developer lost?"

    The sale that would have occurred if both players wanted to play the game at the same time and therefore had to buy a copy each.

    Its tenuous, but it depends on the game. If it were TF2 or Halo 3, the example would carry more weight.

  • skillian #124 2 years ago

    The sale that would have occurred if both players wanted to play the game at the same time and therefore had to buy a copy each.

    Yeah you are right - I was going to emphasise my caveat that I'm talking about a specific example where that wasn't going to happen, but it's a bit of a circular argument so I deleted my post before I saw you replied.

    I do of course agree with you though that there are many examples where that situation might lead to a lost sale and a direct loss to the game-makers.

  • old_skool #125 2 years ago

    Games now, taking into account inflation, are cheaper now than they have ever been. When I was a nipper a top end Atari 2600 cartridge could cost near to £40. Typical C64 games cost around a tenner and a PC game might launch today at £25 (whereas a Mars bar over the same 25 year period has inflated maybe 400%).

    @ kangarootoo

    Price is probably the only effective way of combating piracy today. Your argument is flawed due to the fact that although in term of inflation games might be cheaper than they were 10-15 years ago, in terms of the counterfeit goods being sold they are still expensive, where the ratio can be anything between 5:1 to 10:1 depending on the region.
    The monetary incentive is clearly there, cheaper counterfeit goods means an instant accessible market. Lowering the price of games will minimize the incentive to buy counterfeit goods.

  • Spekingur #126 2 years ago

    You know, I don't understand why publishers just require you to put in a serial key, especially on those who are played online. Simple but can still deter people from using pirated versions.

  • Grom #127 2 years ago

    What has the developer lost?

    They have lost a copy of the game. Because if there is only ever one original disc then two people playing at once is impossible.


    edit: sorry I see you've changed your post :)
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 17:03

  • skillian #128 2 years ago

    They have lost a copy of the game. Because if there is only ever one original disc then two people playing at once is impossible.

    It's 1s and 0s. There isn't a copy for them to lose.

    I think we might be talking with crossed wires here.

  • kangarootoo #129 2 years ago

    "Your argument is flawed due to the fact that although in term of inflation games might be cheaper than they were 10-15 years ago, in terms of the counterfeit goods being sold they are still expensive, where the ratio can be anything between 5:1 to 10:1 depending on the region"

    I don't want to get all pedantic on you, but my argument isn't flawed because I wasn't really making an argument for price being irrelevant. I was just supposing that price is not the dominating factor. It may well still be part of the picture, I agree. Regardless, the stuff I said about the pirate disassociating price from the whole process once they make the mental step from "paying for stuff" to "not paying for stuff" is true.

    There will of course be pirates who are on the cusp, who pirate some things but also make purchases. Skillian sounds like such a person, and I'm not without a fair few copied mp3s either (though I haven't pirated a game for years). For people like us, maybe price is more of a factor, but for those that pirate everything as a matter of course, price is no longer important to them in the same way that delivery times or the distance to the nearest games shop is no longer important to them either.


    What you say about ratios is also true, but (massive pedantry follows) it is an association not a known causation. In other words, we have seen the price ratio increase and we have also seen the piracy rate increase, and we can perhaps suggest they are related in some way, but we can't say for certain whether one caused the other. They may in fact both result independantly from the same root cause (of which we are not currently aware).

  • kangarootoo #130 2 years ago

    @skillian

    Well he doesn't mean they have dropped it down the back of the sofa :)

    We should maybe just assume that when someone talks about stuff being lost, they are talking about sales revenue.

  • VMerken #131 2 years ago

    @Spekingur
    The problem is that a "fair price" is not defined. What is fair to you, doesn't need to be fair to me. For example, in the days of the c64 with its €9.99 full price games, there was also Nintendo selling €74.99 full price cartridges. To me, that just seemed insane at the time, so I didn't get into Nintendo gaming. But, I'm sure many others ponied up the dough for the latest Zelda or Castlevania. To them, €74.99 was "fair", to me it wasn't.

    Today, I find €49.99 a fair price for a video game (counting inflation, risen production costs, the fact that we're buying one permanent license). Which is why (barring the occasional must-have) I either wait for a console game to drop to that price, or I buy the PC version. €69.99 as a basic console game price is way close to that €74.99 of yesteryear, and this time around we're not even talking about expensive cartridges!

    Anyway, due to these differences of opinion, I hold to the belief that pricing only mildly affects the quantity of pirates. Even you, yourself, are talking about "a few more sales". And, even if the industry does come up with a theoretically perfect pricing model for their products, I'm pretty sure the temptation to choose the "free" option won't change by a landslide.

    That's why the industry is going to ram digital distribution down our throats. With digital distribution, there's nothing which can be pirated unless crackers completely reverse engineer the games. Then, we eat whatever pricing they throw in our faces (or you choose not to game any longer, of course). Then, the right of first sale doctrine is effectively circumvented. Which is why politics needs to start thinking about this as soon as possible.

    But, I guess we all know what politicians are really going to do.
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 17:16

  • old_skool #132 2 years ago

    Trade is, at its core, a exchange of incentives. The seller exchanges goods with the buyer. In modern terms the seller exchanges money for goods or services.

    Piracy is nothing else than trade between a buyer and seller. The buyer can get the goods he wants at a cheaper price from a seller that sells counterfeited goods than buy the original goods at an expensive price. If the buyer could get the original goods at the same price as the counterfeited goods, would he still buy the pirated goods?

    Almost everything under the sun gets pirated, be it Levi jeans, cigarettes, shoes, bags, etc.

    The amount of counterfeited goods depends on the popularity and price.

    Combating with price is one tool to combat piracy and it can be quite effective if implemented properly.
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 17:43

  • VMerken #133 2 years ago

    @old skool
    You forgot the hidden third option the buyer has: to get a perfect reproduction of the good for no money at all. You think the amount of people going for option number two rather than three will be very significant? Personally, I think the people who used to go to option one will now simply shift to option two, while the existing line at option three remains largely unchanged.

    With that said, this might be an interesting study case somewhere.
    Edited by 1 at 13/11/09 @ 17:44

  • old_skool #134 2 years ago

    @VMerken

    I haven't forgotten the third option at all, in fact the pirates who distribute the free software distribute many of them with trojans, so the incentive is created to get a free product which the receiver ( I can't say buyer anymore ) get the item they want and the distributor gains access to your system, which might lead to monetary gains. The trade still exists though not in the classical terms. In fact I have a theory that free music and movies are distributed for this very purpose, to lull people into downloading other free stuff which contain trojans, or lure people to websites which contain trojans infecting the web browser and compromising the system.

    I also don't think digital distribution is the panacea to fix the problem, at least not at this time. Digital distribution is in its infancy in computing terms and the more popular it'll become the more it'll be targeted.
    Edited by 2 at 13/11/09 @ 18:03

  • old_skool #135 2 years ago

    Here's a worthwhile article to read.

    [link url=http://www.wipo.int/wipo_magazine/en/2006/05/artic le_0003.html
    ]http://ww w.wipo.int/wipo_magazine/en/200...[/link]

    Enjoy

  • VMerken #136 2 years ago

    @old skool
    Well, the existence of trojans is something the PC line at option three should be well versed in, and precautionary measures should be in place as the threat of trojans aren't limited to games.

    With that said, it's not as if the game industry isn't doing something similar, albeit they are trying to play it out as legal because, for the sake of your gaming experience of course, it's necessary that they have full control over your system in order to create and feed system data to the Marketing Department and to whoever else the fork they please, because they sure don't specify who the fork their Related Parties/affiliates are, what technical processes they are talking about, what kind of aggregate data they calculate, how they ensure that it's anonymous etc. They give no specifics, yet you are kindly asked to accept their vague terms if you wish to play the game.

    For example, take this little snippet out of the EULA of Hellgate: London:

    "3. Consent to Use of Data. You agree that EA, its affiliates, and each Related Party may collect, use, store and transmit technical and related information that identifies your computer, including without limitation your Internet Protocol address, operating system, application software and peripheral hardware, that may be gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online play.

    EA and/or the Related Parties may also use this information in the aggregate and, in a form which does not personally identify you, to improve our products and services and we may share that aggregate data with our third party service providers."

    Oh, and I've downloaded the character editor of Dragon Age: Origins a second time to present to you this (don't know if it is also in the full game, but it doesn't bode well if they chose to put the following into the character editor to begin with):

    "3. Consent to Use of Data. EA and its affiliates may collect and store non-personally identifiable data including your Internet Protocol Address as well as game play and software usage statistics. EA may use this information to improve our products and services and may share anonymous aggregate data with third parties.

    To facilitate the provision of software updates, any dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online play, you agree that EA and its affiliates may collect, use, store and transmit technical and related information that identifies your computer (including an Internet Protocol Address and hardware identification), operating system and application software and peripheral hardware. EA and its affiliates may also use this information in the aggregate, in a form which does not personally identify you, to improve our products and services and we may share anonymous aggregate data with our third party service providers."

    Which is a slightly modified version of the Hellgate one. I also really like the following bit, which made me click "Cancel" and eradicate the 320Mb I just downloaded yet again. You actually do not create anything in the Dragon Age character editor! No, EA does, and EA can do with it whatever the fork they want, exclusively, perpetually, irrevocably and worldwide. I.e. your creativity is making EA money somehow? Well tough luck, it isn't yours to begin with!

    "E. Your Contributions. In exchange for use of the Software, and to the extent that your contributions through use of the Software give rise to any copyright interest, you hereby grant EA an exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, fully transferable and sub-licensable worldwide right and license to use your contributions in any way and for any purpose in connection with the Software and related goods and services including the rights to reproduce, copy, adapt, modify, perform, display, publish, broadcast, transmit, or otherwise communicate to the public by any means whether now known or unknown and distribute your contributions without any further notice or compensation to you of any kind for the whole duration of protection granted to intellectual property rights by applicable laws and international conventions.

    You hereby waive any moral rights of paternity, publication, reputation, or attribution with respect to EA’s and other players’ use and enjoyment of such assets in connection with the Software and related goods and services under applicable law. The license grant to EA, and the above waiver of any applicable moral rights, survives any termination of this License."

    Thanks for the heads up, EA. Also, do you know about things such as StarForce or certain SecuRom implementations with limited install limits? Another can of worms best left closed, but they're around as well.

    Either way, the choices are clear: either pay to get the retail version with (possibly) things like the above in it and which you will have to live with, or pay nothing to get a pirated version with (possibly) trojans which you (hopefully) have countermeasures against, or don't get the game at all. Each option has its up- and down-sides. The choice, however, is yours and yours alone.
    Edited by 7 at 13/11/09 @ 21:12

  • old_skool #137 2 years ago

    @VMerken

    All the things you listed in your post is true and unless the things that developers and publishers do in their game software (which some might equate to spying) causes something of a public outcry it will remain the status quo. Consumers seem to either have a high tolerance or are highly ignorant of all those facts. Plainly put it hasn't stopped game sales. Activision's Call of Duty MW2 is a prime example of a small group of people with grievances about dedicated servers, yet the game went and sold millions! I guess the incentive to buy the game just steamrolls past issues like that, and so it is for the EULA as well.

    Whether the above justifies piracy, well that just replaces a monetary incentive with a social/moral one and how many people do it out of social/moral reason? . At the end of the day large scale piracy doesn't come down to morality.

  • Spekingur #138 2 years ago

    @VMerken: If EULA goes against local laws in a country (or area, such as EU) then the EULA is void.

  • VMerken #139 2 years ago

    @spekingur
    Then you'll have to formally prove this in court for the EULA in question, which isn't trivial unless you a Master of Legalese. Also, what of countries where the EULA is valid? They'll have to live with those terms. Technicality aside, it's stupefying what companies will put into their EULAs these days, what they want to do with your system simply because you install their game, which is what I wanted to show here.

    @old skool
    You're absolutely right, of course. I remember some resistance over the Hellgate EULA but these days, there appears to be little protest. People are getting used to the EULAs and they're not seeing any visible harm to their systems, so they must be okay. We'll see about the MW2 case though, because sales figures are totals of both console and pc sales. I'd like to see the PC sales separately to verify whether the PC community made a stand or not.

    Furthermore, I need to be honest: I'm beyond the 18+ mark and I remember that back when I was 6-18 years, I didn't care about EULAs. The game was everything and I wanted to play it. Considering the fact that (1) the vast majority of video game players are 6-18 years old and (2) the vast majority of parents buy games to keep the peace with their 6-18 year olds, I have this suspicion that they don't care too much about EULAs either. So yeah, game companies appear to get safely away with all this.

    Oh, and I'm not trying to justify piracy, nor does the above. You mentioned trojans, so I thought it would be interesting to mention the other side of the coin as well.
    Edited by 6 at 13/11/09 @ 21:06

  • Spekingur #140 2 years ago

    cnlfailure: That's not exactly the same thing, now is it? What if I modified my car to use a diffirent kind of fuel? Should the car maker try to ban me from driving? That's by your logic. It doesn't work since digital isn't the same as analog.

  • smelly #141 2 years ago

    @semitope - okay.. here's an analogy which does work.. I steal someones car, and bring it back to them. I used it without their permission and didnt pay them for the use of the car.. but they didnt lose the car. Is that wrong?

    Besides - by pirating games, you're breaking the license agreement you agreed to when you signed up to xbla.. so tough titty

    And pirates - go and get a job you cheap gits!

  • smelly #142 2 years ago

    @Spekingur : "Sorry, but yes, if games would be cheaper (and easier to access) piracy would most likely not be or have been as large as it is today."


    Bull..Shit.

    If that was the case, explain how rife piracy is on the iphone with games which only cost $1 each?

  • Spekingur #143 2 years ago

    Gorramit, stop using the car comparison. It doesn't work. Might as well use religion.

    @smelly: Seriously, iPhone has been out for like 2-3 years. The piracy wave started well before that time. My point was about how commonplace pirating is today and how it has become just a normal activity many people do.

  • smelly #144 2 years ago

    No - you said if games were cheaper there would be less piracy.

    And iphone games have loads of piracy despite being cheap.. so that's nonsense.. You could sell modern warfare 2 for 5 quid.. and the pirates would still download it!

    pirates are scumm (pun intended)

  • Chalee #145 2 years ago

    One aspect which I think has not been touched upon is the fact that, if this policy is to serve as a deterrent, it will serve as a deterrent only vis-a-vis people who play multi-player games. I own and x-box but, being no real fan of multi-player (no friends etc) I have barely ever used the service.

    Loner pirates can still have their cake and eat it.

  • Spekingur #146 2 years ago

    smelly, if people wouldn't have developed the taste for piracy back then they probably wouldn't be doing it today.. which was my point

    plus, if you could pirate games on the PS3 then quite a bit of PS3 owners would be doing so

  • Murton #147 2 years ago

    It's great for MS. Ban a million consoles when a big title comes out, even if only 1% of those buy a new console that 10k x whatever margin MS is making on the 360 these days. And the pirates get to keep their Gamertags and that rather impressive GamerScore that their "theft" has allowed them to accumulate.

    Now if MS had banned Gamertags as well as consoles then I'd have no problem believing that this was a purely anti-pirate move, but as only the console is banned I see it as nothing more than an artificial boost to their sales figures.

  • pinochet_cz #148 2 years ago

    No apologies needed, we knew ciderhouse rules.

  • k4rl #149 2 years ago

    ofcourse they deserve to get banned, but
    this makes me laugh, Loads of peole come out on their high horses and preach about it being theft and yes it is technically theft and no I don't have a modded xbox, I pay for my games. But the people preaching and saying how much the people downloading are C**TS but how many of them have ever downloaded some mp3's, i guess most of you. hmm the words pot, kettle and black come to mind.
    thing is if most of you could get away with it you probly would
    Edited by 1 at 15/11/09 @ 21:44

  • costa_k #150 2 years ago

    I wonder how many illegal things all these anti pirates have at home.
    Edited by 1 at 16/11/09 @ 11:44

  • GuyanGalgoo #151 2 years ago

    you lot will love assasins creed 2 and left for dead 2

  • Lamb #152 2 years ago

    Microsoft "unapologetic" about Xbox bans.

    Well why should they be? But not everyone is made of money and not every download is a lost sale. Take into account your target market is teenagers with lots of time on their hands. Especially when they are dumb downed by redundant course work thats further dumb downed by wrong answers and procedures. And then they want to escape and thats why they play.

    Of course now the solution is two xboxes one for online with proper game and one modded with no online. At least it will make the teens more responsible consumers by necessity when they have to fork out money.

    Personally I do not support the pirating of new games as it stifles innovation and people who think they are saving money by being greedy are forgetting time and money go hand in hand. Again this is no concern for a teen with nothing but time.
    Edited by 1 at 16/11/09 @ 17:43

  • Bander #153 2 years ago

    "Edit: I am also wondering what would happen if we would ever get a replicator-thingy from Star Trek. Besides the fact that governments and corporations would try to keep out of the hands of the public, there would be a very large outcry from basically everyone who is trying to sell a product. Someone who grows apples will claim copyright infringement because he believes his apple was 'replicated'."

    NASA have been putting a lot of research into 3D printers that can use materials such as metals to make spare parts for use on space stations. They reckon that not only could it be available at a consumer level, but it may be cheaper and less wasteful than current manufacturing methods.

    However, going back to fiction, Star Trek is based around a scenario where there is no longer any money, and not really much in the way of things like television or movies either. The only music most characters appear to know much about is classical or opera, and most of their holodeck entertainment is based on films and novels of our past. Where has all the creative, imaginative talent gone? If entertainment media can be easily replicated, there's not much incentive for anyone to make it!

    It is still fiction, and probably not thought out far beyond 'let's make the spacemen do stuff that the viewers will recognise because it'll engage our audience and save us some time and effort'. But the problems with creative people not receiving anything for their efforts has already been witnessed in our time on a massive scale. The difficulties suffered by the Soviet Union were largely due to a lack of people pursuing their own ideas, because there was little incentive to do so. What once was a super-power eventually couldn't keep up with the capitalist world, where people would be rewarded for their innovation.

    Not paying for games will work for pirates for a short while, but eventually this will all end in either heavy-handed, expensive and limiting rights management, or a drought of innovative quality games, or both.