MS man explains why it's hard to police homophobia on Live

By Ellie Gibson Published 3 March, 2009

"Consider the gamertag 'Bobisgay'."

Xbox Live policy manager Stephen Toulouse has offered further of explanation of why the word "gay" can't be used in gamertags or profiles.

Eurogamer contacted Toulouse to ask why Microsoft doesn't just allow the use of the word, and take action against those who use it pejoratively - as it takes action, for example, against those who use racist language.

"The challenge in this case is that the words themselves are both used as slurs and not," Toulouse replied.

"No one uses, as an insult, 'You're a black man.' Instead they use the n-word (which as an aside is of course forbidden as well). Unfortunately it's harder to define identification from abuse with sexual orientation."

Toulouse went on to offer an example: "Consider the gamertag 'Bobisgay'. Is the person calling someone named Bob gay? Or is the gamertag owned by Bob and he is referring to himself in the third-person?"

According to Toulouse, "The complaint process itself is designed to only show my enforcers the content so we can make a determination as to whether it violates the Terms of Use.

"Who made the complaint and who (beyond the gamertag) is being complained against does not factor in our determinations in order to keep justice, for lack of a better term, blind."

Which is why, Toulouse said, he and the rest of the policy team are working to "move beyond trying to apply a policy to the current situation", and instead "find ways to allow customers to express themselves in ways that cannot be misused".

"As I have stated it is certainly not an elegant solution," Toulouse added, "which is why I'm trying to make something a bit better."

Toulouse was recently heard speaking on this issue in the Major Nelson podcast, as we reported yesterday. During the same podcast, mysterious Microsoft chap "E" said it's "not appropriate" to express your sexual orientation on Xbox Live. Eurogamer asked Toulouse if he or E could comment on why it's inappropriate, but we've yet to receive a response on that particular issue.

Picture of Ellie.

About Ellie Gibson

Since joining Eurogamer in the mid 2000s, Ellie has written about subjects as diverse as the fall of Gizmondo, the rise of Hollyoaks actresses in Red Alert games and the noise a bear makes under NSFW circumstances.

Read more articles from Ellie by visiting the Ellie Gibson archive page.

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Comments (101) Latest comment 3 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • mcbi4kh2 #1 3 years ago

    Why regulate it at all? If you dont like someones gamertag/psn Id, block them.

  • DonnieDarko333 #2 3 years ago

    bobisgay? Well no offence but most Gay people wouldn't create a gamertag like this in the first place..not all gays are raging queens who wanna shove their sexuality into other peoples faces, people seem to forget this!

    Buck up Microsoft and stop thinking about making money for one moment and sort this out..it's 2009, people should be able to speak freely about who they are without immature t**ts adding their pathetic comments.
    Edited by 1 at 03/03/09 @ 09:57

  • des #3 3 years ago

    He is?

    Race,sexuality,politics,etc... has no place in gaming,ban that totally.

  • Floppy #4 3 years ago

    So if your name was Gaylord Focker, you couldn't have that then?

    Nazis :)

  • mazzl #5 3 years ago

    @des shure, gaming is just for kids, games do not need to be relevant to society or mock it or whatever.

    being gay is just as normal as being left handed, they should just make a pink controller for all the lefty's out there ;)

  • metalangel #6 3 years ago

    What if I liked Gaymers Cider enough to make that a gamertag? What if I made a tag that just happened to have g, a and y together?

  • anomagnus #7 3 years ago

    its a well known scientific fact that gays don't play games

  • B0MBJ4CK #8 3 years ago

    I wondered why i haven't seen me old mate Fingersin Cider on Live for a while....

  • Toothball #9 3 years ago

    @Floppy:

    You joke, but that pretty much happened: http://ko taku.com/392304/xbox-live-gay-c...

  • Farzlepot #10 3 years ago

    I'm not entirely sure anybody playing games online is interested where their competitors choose to put their penises. I'd say of all the things Microsoft have done in the past, this makes the most sense of all.

  • stepneg #11 3 years ago

    Just play Halo or COD for a while online and it will be minutes before someone calls you a fag, gey lord or other homophobic insults etc... That's OK by MS though even 'E''s son is allowed to join in. Put the letters G A Y somewhere together in your profile though and you will feel the full force of the MS ban hammer, makes perfect sense to me.
    Edited by 1 at 03/03/09 @ 11:09

  • Skurmedel #12 3 years ago

    By the age of twenty "E"'s kid will know what sex means.

  • Razz #13 3 years ago

    Dick Gaywood lol

  • clockworkzombie #14 3 years ago

    There was the time a librarian registering online for a conference, her name was Cheryl Babcock, she was informed that her name was inappropriate so she eventually called herself Cheryl Babpenis and it went through.

  • Doctor_What #15 3 years ago

    Bobishomosexual?

  • homerramone #16 3 years ago

    What if your name is Bob Isgay ?

  • Rirekon #17 3 years ago

    In fairness to MS policing this kind of stuff is an utter nightmare, especially when not policing it isn't an option (child friendly people, child friendly).
    Credit to them for laying out where they're coming from with it.

  • Pulsar_t #18 3 years ago

    And parenting as always is total fail(ure).

  • penhalion #19 3 years ago

    I would have thought it was obvious why it's not appropriate to express your sexual orientation on XBox Live. There are young children playing on the service all the time and it is down to the parents and not some dick headed 15 year old fanboy to determine when (not if) their children are of the appropriate age to understand that Mike and Frank or Gerta and Ruby are not just friends!

    Heck being too liberal is what got our society into the mess it is today anyway! A society where a child can take their parents to court for smacking them around the ear!

  • Spielo #20 3 years ago

    I've had people send me voice messages with them screaming "YOU'RE A FUCKIN' FAGGOT!" before and Microsoft didn't do anything about it. I wouldn't mind so much that Microsoft charge £40 a year to play mostly peer-hosted games if they did a good job of moderating it, but the current system doesn't work as it should.

    The whole being able to use the word gay in your GT is really a side issue, it's the number of morons who can't keep their bigoted opinions to themselves that are the problem, the moderation needs to be much stronger, Microsoft need to have a zero tolerance approach on anyone who is shown to be abusing other users.

  • ruttyboy #21 3 years ago

    Microsoft need to have a zero tolerance approach on anyone who is shown to be abusing other users.

    I agree, but the problem with that is (and MS are fully aware of this), the amount of bannage required would instantly half (at least) the amount of subscribers (or revenue sources in corporate speak) and so as long as they keep paying their subscription and don't make MS liable in any way they couldn't give a shit. Their core market for Live *is* retarded teens after all.

  • Darren #22 3 years ago

    I honestly cannot understand why anyone would state their sexuality on their Xbox LIVE profile, it is just not relevant in an online community solely focused on playing games against faceless strangers you'll probably never see nevermind meet in most cases. It's not like there aren't other forums and sites specifically where you can state your sexuality and talk to others who are the same as you.

    Theresa, who was a lesbian who was subsequently banned from LIVE for stating that in her profile, was stupid, especially as she should have known that it would attract unwanted attention. Or maybe that's the point, maybe she wanted the attention. Whatever, the rules for Xbox LIVE are very specific and she abused them or was ignorant to them and got what she deserved.

  • Rodafowa #23 3 years ago

    "She got what she deserved."

    Fucking hell. Blame the victim, much?

    By your reasoning, what's the point of stating anything at all in your Live profile?

  • Les #24 3 years ago

    "Heck being too liberal is what got our society into the mess it is today anyway!"

    I couldn't agree less. The conservative mindset of ignoring things that don't fit in its outdated world view is what makes the problems even bigger.

    Anyway, like I said in the now deserted previous thread on the same topic: What is so bad about a child reading in someone's bio (or from a gamertag for all I care) that someone is gay, bisexual or straight?! How on Earth could that hurt a kid?! It's more that parents, being frustrated sexually because of society's crazy taboo on the subject, don't feel comfortable talking about it in the first place...

  • busboy33 #25 3 years ago

    @stepneg:

    "That's OK by MS though "

    How do you figure? The fact that people yell abusive sh!t through the headsets does not mean that its approved or condoned by MS. You do know that there's a feedback option to alert MS when that happens, right?

    With voicechat, it usually takes several complaints so that they can verify the offender is actually abusing the TOS rather than you being a whiner filing a complaint for losing (since they can't actually hear the alleged slur). With something in the profile itself, then can see if there is a TOS violation or not.

    I get annoyed when people complain that voicechat abusers "are totally condoned by MS" or other such nonsense. They clearly aren't.

  • Les #26 3 years ago

    "Theresa, who was a lesbian who was subsequently banned from LIVE for stating that in her profile, was stupid, especially as she should have known that it would attract unwanted attention. Or maybe that's the point, maybe she wanted the attention. Whatever, the rules for Xbox LIVE are very specific and she abused them or was ignorant to them and got what she deserved."

    Or maybe she just wanted to play games with like-minded people.

    As for the rules: They might be specific but that does not necessarily make them legally binding and enforceable. And if you think a rule isn't fair or right, you should fight against it. Doesn't mean you'll win but at least you put the topic on the agenda.

  • Farzlepot #27 3 years ago

    "Or maybe she just wanted to play games with like-minded people."

    Does it really matter what your sexual orientation is when you're just shooting everybody else in the face with an assault rifle though?

  • BobsUncle #28 3 years ago

    Microsoft are gay.

  • HairyArse #29 3 years ago

    I still want to know why Microsoft banned my gamertag.

    Is HairyArse really offensive?

  • Les #30 3 years ago

    "Does it really matter what your sexual orientation is when you're just shooting everybody else in the face with an assault rifle though?"

    I don't play online much, primarily because only infantile trash talking idiots seem to be available. But if I'm not mistaken there's more to play online than games in which you shoot stuff.

    But I can imagine that if someone that's gay is able to play a shooter with people of the same sexual orientation the number of homophobic exclaims during the play session would drop enormously and might result in a better overall play experience. Granted, just turning all players on mute would very likely achieve the same effect though...
    Edited by 1 at 03/03/09 @ 12:34

  • Chufty #31 3 years ago

    Criminal prosecutions for persistent offenders = problem solved.

  • Farzlepot #32 3 years ago

    "I don't play online much, primarily because only infantile trash talking idiots seem to be available. But if I'm not mistaken there's more to play online than games in which you shoot stuff."

    I know, just using the most obvious metaphor :p.

    "But I can imagine that if someone that's gay is able to play a shooter with people of the same sexual orientation the number of homophobic exclaims during the play session would drop enormously and might result in a better overall play experience. Granted, just turning all players on mute would very likely achieve the same effect though..."

    Why would it result in a better play experience? I would imagine that the majority of people online are heterosexual, just like me and (possibly) yourself. We haven't experienced a better play experience as a result...

  • Mayhem64 #33 3 years ago

    A mate of mine got flagged up because his gamertag was BigNige (that's as in Nigel) and some stupid people thought it was actually the "n" word instead... epic fail.

  • crazyhorse174 #34 3 years ago

    I kid you not, but there was a guy who worked here called Richard Harden...

    ...he appears on the phone system as Dick...

  • dr_faulk #35 3 years ago

    This is very easily resolved:

    BibIsGay -> BobIsntStraight

    Ta-Da!

  • Les #36 3 years ago

    "We haven't experienced a better play experience as a result..."

    That's true. But there probably are filters that heterosexual people could use to improve our play experience as well. So that in the end the trash talking 13 year old Americans can only play against other trash talking 13 year old Americans.

  • CHAZBIGPOTATO #37 3 years ago

    Just to throw another dimension to the argument, what about the gamertag; "batsforbothsides"?

  • Darren #38 3 years ago

    @Rodafowa - Hey, I'm gay myself but I would never dream of revealing that in my Xbox LIVE profile as (a) it is not relevant whatsoever, sorry but it isn't; and (b) I know that even if Microsoft didn't ban my profile that it would attract a lot of negative comments from the infantile and less tolerant members. With that in mind, it is a very stupid thing to put in your profile really. There's a place and time to discuss your sexuality, Xbox LIVE isn't it. ;)

  • Fab4 #39 3 years ago

    "I don't play online much, primarily because only infantile trash talking idiots seem to be available. But if I'm not mistaken there's more to play online than games in which you shoot stuff."

    You could try one of the nice board games, or poker, which make use of the video camera. That way you see people jerking off in front of you, or appearing with KKK hoods on. Online is a social cesspool and M$ will never ban everyone who gets reported...it would cost them too much. Homosexuals are easy prey for them, because they probably are not the target demographic anyway.
    Edited by 1 at 03/03/09 @ 13:06

  • toythatkills #40 3 years ago

    Maybe Bob is happy.

  • dr_faulk #41 3 years ago

    @ toythatkills

    Brilliant.

  • Ranger101 #42 3 years ago

    What if "bobisgay" was the real name of someone called Bo Bisgay... It could happen.

  • g@area404.org #43 3 years ago

    I feel I'm missing the point completely with this gamertag issue.
    MS put these rules in to stop them being abused. Kinda makes sense as it covers everyones back and most sane people wouldn't take offence.

    Personally, I'm not sure where I'd be in life if i thought it was important to include my sexual preference in my gamertag or gamertag bio. Now, on top of this, I'm not sure where I'd be if I thought I'd complain when I was told "actually, its a breach of T&C's".

    OMFG MS are so homophobic. Oh, wait....no.... they're not are they.

    Seriously, what kind of person feels they really need to express their sexual preference in public on XBL?

    MS are in the right as far as I'm concerned. Blanket all personality traits. Its about gaming not about whether I wear tight jeans or not.

  • kwesleyb #44 3 years ago

    People should have any name they wish.
    People like these from MS are utter arses.

    "Get over anything that offends you and live your life like you got some guts you pathetic people."
    That will be my message to all the idiots who desire anything that offends them to be banned.

    Urgh.

    "find ways to allow customers to express themselves in ways that cannot be misused".
    Just use numbers?... Oh but oh no...if i was player "69" that would fuck the whole system up...
    Ahh ban ban ban...

  • MistaLarge #45 3 years ago

    Am I the only one that think MS is trying to shift the goal posts here? The largely overlooked point with the Theresa case is that she wrote she was a lesbian in her BIO, which means it is supposed to be about her and would only be read by parties specifically looking for it. By defending their stance on gamertags, they are trying to make this case look more clear cut than it really is.

    In any case, I completely reject their continual argument that identifying as gay or lesbian counts as "sexual innuendo or is of a sexual nature" (Stephen Tolouse said this a while back). Identifying as gay or lesbian is not the same as writing about specific sex acts; a comparison which many commenters on this subject insist on making time and time again, such as dogging, bestiality etc. Incidentally the same types of arguments put across by fundamentalist Christians/Muslims against homosexuality. If people are so concerned about their children seeing sex references, perhaps MS should start by banning the number 69 in gamer tags, since just last week my nephew questioned why such a young person would claim to have been born in 1969.

    Would anyone expect a straight male to be suspended or banned for stating in his bio that he's into girls who game, that his girlfriend/wife only lets him play on Sunday nights, or that his son is better than him on Halo? That is information on a par with identifying as gay or lesbian. It identifies his sexual preference without referring to sexual acts (aside from the obvious intercourse needed to produce his son).

    Contrary to popular belief, gay people still have a tough time in just about every area of life and generally make little fuss. On the occasions that they do, they are labelled as a whingeing minority, "flaunting their sexuality" (translation: behaving like a heterosexual couple) or told that it has no relevance to the situation. Well with the homophobia rampant on Xbox Live, perhaps it is no wonder that like minded people might want to game together to cut out the crap.

  • MeBrains #46 3 years ago

    wanna hear my opinion?

    ThisDiscussionMScreatesIsGay.

    how's that for a tag?

  • Feanor #47 3 years ago

    "During the same podcast, mysterious Microsoft chap "E" said it's "not appropriate" to express your sexual orientation on Xbox Live. Eurogamer asked Toulouse if he or E could comment on why it's inappropriate, but we've yet to receive a response on that particular issue."

    I believe what e said was that he thinks it's not appropriate to talk about sexual preferences in your gamer tag as it can be viewed by anyone on Xbox Live, including people like his 11 year old son.

  • Feanor #48 3 years ago

    "Put the letters G A Y somewhere together in your profile though and you will feel the full force of the MS ban hammer, makes perfect sense to me."

    They do exactly the same thing to people who talk about being straight or hetero in their profile, so you have no point.

  • kwesleyb #49 3 years ago

    Feanor: "as it can be viewed by anyone on Xbox Live, including people like his 11 year old son"

    Thats a fair point so why cant they just make all accounts under the age of 16 unable to see the gametag and its replaced automatically with a scrambled set of numbers/letters?

  • jim1975 #50 3 years ago

    it like the problems people who live in scunthorpe had.

  • Shrui #51 3 years ago

    @ Mistalarge

    +1

    When I was playing Eve Online I remember a common theme in a lot of people's bio was "a proud Rainbow Renegade" or for those of us that just wanted to show support "Friend of Rainbow Renegades".

    Its not as obvious as outright saying your gay or gay friendly but I thought I don't remember having to explain it to too many folks.

    No one gave a shit and I know the devs knew about it. Thats why it puzzles me on the fact this girl has had her BIO (not her tag) reported. Go on Facebook or Myspace (or whatever the kids are exposing themselves on these days) and you can find all the unlocked gay & bisexual profiles you want. It's actually a feature to say who your interested in and no one gives a shit.

  • peterfll #52 3 years ago

    My 7 year old nephew was asked recently what he thought about his uncle being gay. He said "well, it's a bit weird, but overall it's a really good thing."

    So I asked: why?

    "Because if you weren't gay I wouldn't have Uncle Paul as an Uncle".

    Whilst Uncle Paul and I were both misty-eyed as we dabbed at our mascara, we also both knew it was down to the fact that we are the only people who will play PS3 and Wii games with him. And he has no-one else to text when he gets stuck on Locoroco 2.

  • Les #53 3 years ago

    "OMFG MS are so homophobic. Oh, wait....no.... they're not are they."

    Problem with policies like MS's (wouldn't be surprised if Sony has a similar one though they apparently don't mind PSN users using IDs like "Sieg heil";) is that in the end they're discriminatory for everyone that doesn't fit within the common denominator. E.g. someone who's straight will not feel limited as basically everyone he/she meets will have the starting assumption that he/she is straight. If you stray from the norm however, you'll have some explaining to do and MS is basically limiting that.

    edit: And to add. It doesn't really matter whether that is the intention of MS or not (I believe it isn't), it's about what it results in.
    Edited by 2 at 03/03/09 @ 14:54

  • insincere_dave #54 3 years ago

    This topic is most revealing of the intolerant views of many of EG's regular posters. Bunch of cunts.

  • Machiavellian #55 3 years ago

    @Les
    I disagree. The only reason this is even remotely a story is the fact that the person is homosexual. If the person gamertag profile said "I like to shag women" and the person was reported and banned, it wouldn't even make news. Even if it made news you probably would get the majority of people agreeing that such statements in a gamertag is not needed.

    The fact is that the person decided either out of ignorance or self importance to put their sexual orientation in their gamertag and found out that they need to change it. The policy clearly state that this is inappropriate and just because you are homosexual doesn't give you a free pass. Being homesexual doesn't mean you can complain and the world will feel sorry for you, instead the person should accept the conditions of the service and move on. Hell, I wanted to put Pimping isn't easy in my gamertag profile and it would not accept pimping.

    The rules of the service does not separate people who are straight and people are not straight but instead it separate people who want to use sexual terms to describe themselves and people who do not.

  • Les #56 3 years ago

    "The rules of the service does not separate people who are straight and people are not straight but instead it separate people who want to use sexual terms to describe themselves and people who do not."

    Again, that's discriminatory to people who stray from the norm and might (I don't say 'will') be conceived as stealth discrimination. It has nothing to do with what the company that made the rules wants to achieve, it's about the actual effects that are generated by such a policy.

    The fact that a company created a policy and that the user accepted it doesn't mean that everything in that policy is actually legally binding. Depends on local laws in the end.

  • zuljin #57 3 years ago

    @peterfll
    "Whilst Uncle Paul and I were both misty-eyed as we dabbed at our mascara, we also both knew it was down to the fact that we are the only people who will play PS3 and Wii games with him. And he has no-one else to text when he gets stuck on Locoroco 2."

    Aww.

    /wipes tear
    Edited by 1 at 03/03/09 @ 15:51

  • pervertron #58 3 years ago

    "The rules of the service does not separate people who are straight and people are not straight but instead it separate people who want to use sexual terms to describe themselves and people who do not."

    If lesbian and gay are sexual terms then so are boy, girl, man, woman, girlfriend, wife etc. All of them relate to sex or sexuality.

    You say that someone who put on their profile "I like to shag women" would be banned - and quite right as the language relates to sexual activity. If a person said on their profile "I'm straight" - I very much doubt they would be - unlike someone who says "I'm a lesbian" or "I'm gay".

  • MistaLarge #59 3 years ago

    @Machiavellian
    "I disagree. The only reason this is even remotely a story is the fact that the person is homosexual. If the person gamertag profile said "I like to shag women" and the person was reported and banned, it wouldn't even make news. Even if it made news you probably would get the majority of people agreeing that such statements in a gamertag is not needed."

    Actually I think you'll find that most gay people would agree that a guy writing "I shag blokes" would be out of line in that context too. It is your brain that is automatically jumping to sexual imagery. Have you considered that, shock horror, you can be a virgin and gay at the same time?!

    You might like to consider that another reason that this is "news" is that gay people are a minority. Would a white American get upset by a native American identifying himself? If he did, he might say "well I don't go around telling people I'm a white American". Just as pointless as your comment since he's in the majority and assumed to be that unless otherwise stated.

  • Les #60 3 years ago

    "If a person said on their profile "I'm straight" - I very much doubt they would be - unlike someone who says "I'm a lesbian" or "I'm gay"."

    But the more essential point is that there's little reason for the straight person to put that in his/her profile. Because they stick to the norm, it's not as big a part of who they are/how they view themselves.

    Allowing 'straight' but not allowing 'gay' or 'lesbian' is direct discrimination. Not allowing any of them might be perceived as indirect discrimination of gay people. The case would be even stronger if things like "happily married, 3 kids" are allowed.

  • Machiavellian #61 3 years ago

    @Les
    I believe we will not see eye to eye on this subject. If the rules apply to everyone weather they are straight or not then I see no discrimination. If a straight person put in their gamer tag, I am heterosexual and they get banned then there is no discrimination because everyone is equal. Just because one is the majority and another is the minority still doesn't give the minority the right to play the discrimination card.

    You are correct that all policy is not law abiding but if you decide to accept a service because you want to pick and choose what policy you want to accept that doesn't make it right as well. You either accept or not accept the policy but I guess thats how most people go about their daily business.

    @pervertron
    Does boy, girl, man, woman wife or husband define weather your sexual preference is for the same sex or not. Lesbian and Gay definitely defines weather your sexual preference is same sex just as I am straight or heterosexual thus your argument is flawed. Until some put I am Straight or Heterosexual within their gamer profile and get reported by more than one person, I guess we will not know if they would get banned.

    @MistaLarge
    I know all about being a minority and trust you me, you do not get special preference just because you are a minority. It's an excuse used to defend your place in society but it's also a crux that if dependent upon limits your ability to rise above your status.

  • cyber_nicco #62 3 years ago

    @DonnieDarko

    "bobisgay? Well no offence but most Gay people wouldn't create a gamertag like this in the first place..not all gays are raging queens who wanna shove their sexuality into other peoples faces, people seem to forget this!

    Buck up Microsoft and stop thinking about making money for one moment and sort this out..it's 2009, people should be able to speak freely about who they are without immature t**ts adding their pathetic comments."

    What does that even mean? Are you saying that Bobisgay should be banned because it was likely not created by a gay person? You make the point that most gays wouldn't create such tags because most aren't "raging queens" (oh, how that makes you look), so what are you saying? Have you already forgot that this controversy has arisen precisely because a lesbian wanted to identify herself as such in her profile?

    Yes, it would be nice if people could express themselves, and Microsoft has stated that they are trying to find a way to allow just that, while still trying to minimize the use of gamertags and profiles for the purposes of insult or shock. Furthermore, your childish remarks about Microsoft needing to take a break from making money are just that - childish.

    Your post (not necessarily you) was shockingly stupid.

    edit: Her profile, not her gamertag.
    Edited by 2 at 03/03/09 @ 16:38

  • stepneg #63 3 years ago

    @Feanor
    "Put the letters G A Y somewhere together in your profile though and you will feel the full force of the MS ban hammer, makes perfect sense to me."

    "They do exactly the same thing to people who talk about being straight or hetero in their profile, so you have no point. "

    Yes they do, my point was they do nothing about the constant stream of racist and homophobic abuse you can encounter at any time whilst playing on Xbox live though. What could they do, I don't care really but this 'E' guy thinks his son should be allowed to play on Halo 3 where he 'could' be called a faggot and worse but its a step to far if he reads that someone is gay on there profile?

  • Machiavellian #64 3 years ago

    @Les
    I will even argue the indirect discrimination part of your argument. Since I am not gay, I do not associate my heterosexual nature as who I am. I would think that even being homosexual that you would not relate your sexual tendency to who you are but instead as something you do. To lean on those terms to define who you are is a crux. It only tells one small part about a person but as you can see from this whole predicament, it is used as a symbol of who a person is.

    So a policy that states no sexual preference allowed is not discriminatory because a person sexual preference is not need for the service provided.

  • zuljin #65 3 years ago

    @Machiavellian
    "I would think that even being homosexual that you would not relate your sexual tendency to who you are but instead as something you do."

    I disagree with you, even though I know a number of gay guys that do agree with the gist of what you're saying.

    Ofcourse its something you do, but what you do ends up being who you are! And its just another thing in this world which loads of people end up using as kind of an icebreaker (can't think of the right word currently). Theres a post on Killzone.com about a guy wanting a Christian clan. Really not my thing in all honesty, and you could argue the same here, why bring religion into a shooting game? Because its something which brings people together.

    If I meet a guy on Live or PSN who is gay, lives in London and seems nice, I'll probably end up asking where he goes out. Just like people who have a football team might bring that up, or that there are clans dedicated to more mature gamers. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that regardless of MS's decision on the matter, I can fully understand why people feel the need to announce their sexuality/religion/age/random other info on their profiles.

  • MistaLarge #66 3 years ago

    @Machiavellian
    "I know all about being a minority and trust you me, you do not get special preference just because you are a minority."

    I never said anything about special treatment. I said that the reason gay people identify themselves is that it is not the mainstream position. People can identify as heterosexual if they wish, but it is a moot point since they will be assumed to be by default.


    "It's an excuse used to defend your place in society but it's also a crux that if dependent upon limits your ability to rise above your status."

    Aside from the little sense this makes, the only excuses I see are from homophobes trying to push gay people into virtual closets:

    Won't somebody please think of the children? (perhaps a talk sooner rather than later would stem the Halo 3 hate speak)
    I don't need to tell people I'm straight (duh)
    It has nothing to do with gaming (why have a bio field at all then?)
    Being straight isn't an integral part of my personality (only because you don't think about it - our experiences, genetics, interests shape us and these affect/are affected by sexual orientation)
    Who cares? Why should they want to talk to or play with other gay people? (if being gay isn't really such a big deal, why do young gay people account for such a high percentage of suicides?)

  • Les #67 3 years ago

    "I would think that even being homosexual that you would not relate your sexual tendency to who you are but instead as something you do."

    Don't want to get too much into technicalities but one is homosexual and that usually leads to performing (= doing) sexual activities with someone from the same sex... ;)

    But I get your point. The thing is that society treats you as special as soon as you stray from the norm and therefore the non-conforming part of who you are gets magnified and made much more important than it should be. That usually leads to the person him-/herself giving extra importance to that part of who they are as well.

    "So a policy that states no sexual preference allowed is not discriminatory because a person sexual preference is not need for the service provided."

    I'm not saying it is, just saying I can understand when people feel that way about it. Whether or not it is discriminating, I'm against this sort of company policy in general.

    But with regards to relevance: IMO the bio section of an online gamer ID is something to let the world know more about who you are as a person. While sexual preference might not necessarily be relevant to playing games online, it can be relevant to how you represent yourself online. And as long as you are within legal boundaries, it's a bit strange for a corporation to put limits on that.

  • aphexstwin #68 3 years ago

    a group of bf2mc players all got one month accounts and made a clan. called Girls Are Yummy, with the prefix 'xGAYx'. then the members called themseleves 'boy' or 'man'. didnt take long before the hammer fell, and understandably so.

    so if no bio or tag is allowed alluding to carnal pleasures or sexual orientation, why are there so many people with 420 in their tags? drugs good, sex bad is it? doesnt the 420 pose a similarly difficult question to parents by their curious offspring?

    and why all the homophobia surrounding gay players anyway? im of the opinion of my exit hole remains as such but im not phobic. i have no 'back to the wall' mentality because that gives the opinion that im super-attractive to members of the same sex, and i wouldn't dare be so presumptuous.

    this is supposed to be a free, more tolerant and somewhat over-the-top pc world. why cant we just all get along

  • kangarootoo #69 3 years ago

    I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I have to say I'm well impressed with the overall maturity of it. Maybe all the raging homophobes are on my ignore list, or maybe one thread was enough to bore them. Its nice to see that even when people disagree they are able to keep it all civil.

    I'm not sure how I feel about the issue overall. Ms have created a service that to some degree protects its users (from whatever they deem users need to be protected from).

    They seem to have decided that any discussion of sexuality is something that should be avoided. Having set themselves that minefield, they are giving the task of walking through it their best efforts. On that basis I kind of say fair enough, well done. The fact they are making further attempts to find a better solution shows they give a shit, and aren't happy with just banning all references across the board.

    Whether or not they should do such things is a different matter. The issue here perhaps (as MS have already discussed) is whether the word "gay" (for example) is being used as an insult or a valid term of identification. If it is being used as an insult, I guess they have to treat it as such. If it is being used as a valid term of identification, my personal view is that they should let people do what they want to do.

    Deciding whether something was used as an insult is a tough call, and I'm not sure they can ever get it right. However, one of the cases in question was based on a girl putting information in her personal bio that was clearly intended to act as a means of identification. If MS banned her account on that basis (I'm not familiar with the case, so I am guessing they did) I think they were completely out of line.

    As others have already said, sexual orientation is one of the characteristics that people use to find other people with a common interest. That isn't to say that their orientation will become a disscusion point between them, so much as a way of knowing that certain kinds of abuse or otherwise divisive opinions won't become an issue between them.

    The people out there that say "its not relevant to gaming" are, I'm afraid, showing a level of ignorance. Their own experience has suggested to them it is not relevant, but in fact all that it has really shown is that they already move in circles where the people they mix with are very similar to them (in many ways, sexual orientation perhaps being one of them).

    If ever they found themselves in a situation where expressing more about themselves (they like hiking, they drive fast cars, they have red hair) they would surely expect to be able to express those differences? So why not sexual orientation?

    The simple answer is because we are still so tied up in ourselves that we associate anything to do with sex as being taboo. Poster E says that somebody's sexual orientation is not a fit subject for his 11 year old, but he is wrong. His 11 year old is already exposed to material related to sexual orientation every single day (does his son never witness his parents hugging or kissing each other?, does he never have discussions about his birth). Poster E is already making the distinction between gay and straight, but I'm not sure he even realises. His perception of someone stating they are gay has tainted his entire view of the subject. If I had written "I love my girlfriend" as my gamertag I absolutely don't think he would had a problem with his 11 year old kid seeing that.

    This post is probably huge by now, so I'll stop.

  • Feanor #70 3 years ago

    E isn't a poster, he's a regular on Major Nelson's podcast, and you're assuming an awful lot about how he thinks based on comments he made that you haven't even heard.

  • Transcendent #71 3 years ago

    What if someone with the gamertag ManDudeGuy stated in his profile that he had a boyfriend? Would he be banned then?

  • Feanor #72 3 years ago

    Live users are not currently permitted to reveal whether they are gay or straight in gamertags

  • Rodchenko #73 3 years ago

    Ed is dead.

  • konnsky #74 3 years ago

    @Darren
    "Theresa, who was a lesbian who was subsequently banned from LIVE for stating that in her profile, was stupid, especially as she should have known that it would attract unwanted attention. Or maybe that's the point, maybe she wanted the attention."

    There's a word for it that describes her actions pretty well. Word being is: ATTENTIONWHORE.


    It's been scientificaly proven, honestly.
    Edited by 1 at 03/03/09 @ 20:04

  • zuljin #75 3 years ago

    @aphexstwin
    420? I learn something new every day :)

  • local_celebrity #76 3 years ago

    Xbox Live is full of scum. But imagine how bad it would get if it was free. It would be like attending a Monster Truck rally.

    Hang on a minute.

    Why not raise the price on Xbox Live?

    That would be aces. We could turn it into a paradise for sensitive Radio 4 listeners like me. Yay!

  • bonker #77 3 years ago

    "being gay is just as normal as being left handed, they should just make a pink controller for all the lefty's out there ;) "

    In no way is being left-handed normal, they're as big a bunch of eye-hand coordination spaz's as gayboys are ...

  • bonker #78 3 years ago

    "In any case, I completely reject their continual argument that identifying as gay or lesbian counts as "sexual innuendo or is of a sexual nature" (Stephen Tolouse said this a while back). "

    Sorry but when you express a sexual-preference, you are most definitely talking about sex. End of.

    Anyway, I find it amusing that you talk about the christian-right and MS as separate entities here. MS are USA through and through and the USA is mostly (where it counts) uber conservative and yes, right-wing christian so go figure, they don't want that queer shit all over their service ...

  • bonker #79 3 years ago

    "There's a word for it that describes her actions pretty well. Word being is: ATTENTIONWHORE.

    It's been scientificaly proven, honestly. "

    Indeed, or better yet and no doubt to her annoyance:

    FEMALE.

  • Spekingur #80 3 years ago

    Good post, kangarootoo. Salutations.

    This is just another example of a corporation's double standards.
    "It's okay for you to shout extreme vulgarities at my young child during a session in Halo but if he sees that your gamertag could possibly be associated with sexual things then we will do mean things to you!"
    It is also apparantly okay to chainsaw or slice a person into bits with lots of blood but one mention of something sexual everyone goes off and trample their silly hats in anger. This was one of the reasons why certain types of people got shipped to the colonies in the first place.

  • MistaLarge #81 3 years ago

    @bonker
    "In no way is being left-handed normal, they're as big a bunch of eye-hand coordination spaz's as gayboys are ... ""

    Aren't you wasting valuable Halo 3 trash talking time on here?

    "Sorry but when you express a sexual-preference, you are most definitely talking about sex. End of. "

    So when you were playing kiss-chase with the opposite sex at the age of 6, you were thinking about sex were you? I think you'll find that most gay people knew they were gay from a young age, and way before they knew about the mechanics of sex. When a gay person comes out to their, friends, family and colleagues, do you think it is to let them know what they do in the bedroom? Of course not, it's to let them know who they want to share their life with, without having to pretend and dodge such questions as "do you have a girlfriend?", "What did you did do at the weekend?", "Which member of Girls Aloud is the fittest?".

    Not sure if you're ready to know this yet, but Gay does not equal bum sex

    Just to back this up:
    "Some people reject the term homosexual as an identity-label because they find it too clinical-sounding. They believe it is too focused on physical acts rather than romance or attraction." Wikipedia
    "Gay is distinguished from homosexual primarily by the emphasis it places on the cultural and social aspects of homosexuality as opposed to sexual practice." Dictionary.com
    Edited by 2 at 04/03/09 @ 03:20

  • malmer #82 3 years ago

    "find ways to allow customers to express themselves in ways that cannot be misused"

    So no cross-dressing then?

  • Collymilad #83 3 years ago

    It's not appropriate because it's irrelevant, EG.

    If you were gay would you go up to people you met and say "Hi, I'm Bob and I'm gay"?

    No, you'd probably just say Hi. Stating you're gay (or otherwise) is even less appropriate in a game-driven setting. It's not like every straight person has "I'm straight" in their profile, is it?

  • kangarootoo #84 3 years ago

    @Feanor

    I'm not much concerned what his role is. And what you call assumption, I call deduction.

    I say again, if my gamertag was "ILoveMyGirlfriend", would he care?


    @bonker

    "Sorry but when you express a sexual-preference, you are most definitely talking about sex. End of."

    Not true. When I was "going out" with girls aged 9 or 10 (I was 9 or 10 at the time I should add, just in case that sounds a bit wrong) sex was not on my mind. But it was girls I was interested in rather than boys because that is my orientation.

    Confusing sexuality with sex is a standard mistake though, so don't feel bad ;)

  • kangarootoo #85 3 years ago

    @Collymilad

    "It's not like every straight person has "I'm straight" in their profile, is it?"

    It is not necessary, because it is assumed. If you met a girl, and there were no "outward signs" of her orientation, I'm pretty sure you would assume she was straight.

    "Stating you're gay (or otherwise) is even less appropriate in a game-driven setting"

    As has already been covered in this thread, its no more or less appropriate than in any other setting where people want to meet people they know they will get on with.

    In fact, given the relatively large amount of homophobic behaviour present on XBLive, it could be suggested that it is MORE appropriate in a game-driven setting as it allows gay players to focus purely on their gaming (as we I think agree should be the main focus of XBlive) without suffering "FAG N00B!!" being shouted in their ear every 7 seconds.

  • Rodafowa #86 3 years ago

    I believe what e said was that he thinks it's not appropriate to talk about sexual preferences in your gamer tag as it can be viewed by anyone on Xbox Live, including people like his 11 year old son.

    If your kids are old enough to play on Live but not old enough for you to say to them "some people want to marry men, some people want to marry women. Both are perfectly normal and perfectly OK" then you're getting parenting wrong.

  • bonker #87 3 years ago

    "Not true. When I was "going out" with girls aged 9 or 10 (I was 9 or 10 at the time I should add, just in case that sounds a bit wrong) sex was not on my mind. But it was girls I was interested in rather than boys because that is my orientation.

    Confusing sexuality with sex is a standard mistake though, so don't feel bad ;) "

    I don't think I'm the one who is confused :)

    Re kiss chase/early 'girlfriends' etc - even from an early age I can remember experiencing all the physical symptoms of arousal and attraction, bar cracking a boner that is, so as far as i'm concerned it IS/WAS sexual if not directly about a sexual act but I don't think anyone is talking about sex acts here just the fact that, by definition, referring to your sexuality, out of any pre-existing context, has clear connotations to sexuality (duh!) ...

  • bonker #88 3 years ago

    "If your kids are old enough to play on Live but not old enough for you to say to them "some people want to marry men, some people want to marry women. Both are perfectly normal and perfectly OK" then you're getting parenting wrong."

    Glossing over the fact that anyone having kids today needs a bullet in their heads - any parent using the word 'normal' to their kids is getting parenting wrong ...

  • kangarootoo #89 3 years ago

    @bonker

    "but I don't think anyone is talking about sex acts here just the fact that, by definition, referring to your sexuality, out of any pre-existing context, has clear connotations to sexuality (duh!)"

    Ummm. Specifically on the point "I don't think anyone is talking about sex acts here"... to quote you from earlier in this very thread.

    "Sorry but when you express a sexual-preference, you are most definitely talking about sex. End of."

    And I am supposed to be the one that is confused?


    Maybe this is just semantic. When you said "you are most definitely talking about sex" I assume you meant "sex acts"... 'cos, well, that is what the word means. And I have all along made the dictinction between sex acts (i.e. sex) and sexuality. The same distinction you yourself are now making (apparently to demonstrate how I am confused).

    In your latest post you actually seem to be agreeing with me, but I've never deviated from what I've been saying. Now I'm not trying to score points off you here, if we agree then we agree and any previous disagreement can maybe be written down to semantic confusion (which was your fault, obviously ;) ).

  • peterfll #90 3 years ago

    @kangarootoo, it's always heartening to read a posts like yours that shows some people "get it". I hereby make you an honorary member of the EG queer club.

    ;-)

  • kangarootoo #91 3 years ago

    Haha. I shall wear my badge with pride :)

  • Feanor #92 3 years ago

    "I'm not much concerned what his role is. And what you call assumption, I call deduction."

    If you're going to make "deductions" you really should listen to the actual words that were spoken to get the context rather than basing it on someone else's second-hand description. But it's pretty obvious you're not much interested in doing any actual research before assuming you know how another person thinks about sexual orientation.
    Edited by 1 at 04/03/09 @ 14:21

  • kangarootoo #93 3 years ago

    Ok, maybe I've been quick to form an "assumption". So educate me.

    Why is someone's sexual orientation not a suitable subject for someone else's 11 year old kid, especially given that at 11 years old his own son's sexual orientation will be a tangible and important subject (for his son at any rate)?

    My memory may be rusty, but I'm pretty sure that by the time I had turned 11 I was very interested in the girls around me and those I saw on TV. In fact it is probably fair to say that sexuality is the most driving and important subject in any blossoming teens entire life. If I had been gay I would have hoped that such things were not viewed by my parents as "inappropriate subjects". I wonder how many guys and girls out there had a terrible time growing up, because as their "alternative" sexuality became apparent to them, they knew that such subjects would be viewed as "inappropriate" by their parents?


    And again (as we seem to be avoiding this question), if my gamertag was "ILoveMyGirlFriend", would E have a problem with his 11 year old son seeing it? You seem to have a more detailed understanding of E's personality, so maybe you can answer the question on his/her behalf.


    You see, I understand where you are coming from re me not following the entire story, but some comments can be read in isolation. I believe (and am happy to be corrected if I am wrong) that the quote went as follows;

    "Major Nelson podcast regular "E" chipped in to argue, "If you're playing Halo 3, you might wind up playing against my 11 year-old son, and when he pulls up your profile, it needs to be appropriate."

    He later added, "It has nothing to do with the sexual orientation that was expressed, it's that it's not appropriate to express it there, regardless of what the orientation is"


    I simply dispute that the subject of sexual orientation is inappropriate for his son, and I believe I have enough "evidence" to make that disputation [sic]. It fundamentally smacks of avoiding an aspect of life for some reason, perhaps to make life easier for the parent? I suppose where I am heading with this is that when I become a parent there will simply be NO SUCH THING as an inappropriate subject for discussion with my kids. Tough questions will come yes, but I'll just suck it up and do my job as a parent.

    If I have missed something, please point it out.

  • kangarootoo #94 3 years ago

    @Feanor

    I think I'm being a bit more arsey than I really mean to be. Please feel free to insert some smiley emoticons into my post as you read it. That will probably give a better idea of how I am actually feeling when I write it :)

  • Feanor #95 3 years ago

    E didn't say the issue of sexual orientation was inappropriate for his son in general, he said it was inappropriate for it to be mentioned in an Xbox Live profile. Whether the profile says "Lesbian", "Straight" or "Into fisting and watersports".

    You have no idea how he educates his son about sexual orientation, and to conclude that he's ignoring an aspect of life as a parent because doesn't want his son getting his sexual orientation info from Xbox Live profiles is utterly ridiculous.

    If your gamertag was ILoveMyGirlFriend then it would be changed by Xbox Live as it violates their terms of service which states that "Expression of any sexual orientation [...] is not allowed in gamertags".

    It's obvious from the quote you used ("It has nothing to do with the sexual orientation that was expressed, it's that it's not appropriate to express it there, regardless of what the orientation is";) that E's issue is with any discussion of sex and sexual orientation (which aren't the same thing but are very closely related) in a profile that can be read by anyone, so the way you have tried to read anti-gay sentiment into his comments is just incorrect.

  • kangarootoo #96 3 years ago

    "and to conclude that he's ignoring an aspect of life as a parent because doesn't want his son getting his sexual orientation info from Xbox Live profiles is utterly ridiculous"

    I concede, in hindsight, it was utterly ridiculous. I apologise for that to E and whoever else out there was offended. Good call, I got a bit carried away being all righteous and so on :)


    "If your gamertag was ILoveMyGirlFriend then it would be changed by Xbox Live as it violates their terms of service"

    Well that isn't quite the same thing. I asked of E would consider it to be inappropriate... but then we ahve already established I was villifying E somewhat and was out of line in that, so lets forget about that.

    I do still question whether or not MS would in fact ban my example usertag. I suppose I could try setting it up and report back what happens, but I very much suspect that by the time I can form a conclusion either way, nobody here will really care anymore.


    Sometimes I totally get on my high horse about things. I know it, and its not a character trait I am pleased to have. In my defense it is born out of a somewhat cynical lack of faith in humanity to ever really consider the effect their own actions have on others.... but it doesn't take a scientist to see a great irony hoving into view here regarding the way I sometimes act on here when I get a bee in my bonnet.

    If I get like that again I hope somebody calls me out the way you did. Good intentions shouldn't get in the way of me being factual, and I think I was being a bit selective with the facts in this case.

  • smelly #97 3 years ago

    Arent there people still with the genuine name "gaylord"? What about them?

  • pervertron #98 3 years ago

    @kangarootoo
    Thanks for putting together a coherent well thought out argument - I certainly don't mind if you get a bee in your bonnet.

    I too had the same opinion about E so if what's been quoted is wrong... so be it. It very much had the ring of that fuss kicked up by "concerned" parents with the CBBC presenter Cerrie Burnell. There are age appropriate ways of discussing most subjects - and the sooner children learn about differences the better for all of us.

  • Les #99 3 years ago

    "He later added, "It has nothing to do with the sexual orientation that was expressed, it's that it's not appropriate to express it there, regardless of what the orientation is" "

    I really fail to see why it would ever be inappropriate to just express a sexual orientation. You can only get upset over such a fact if you feel uncomfortable with the subject in the first place, which isn't really a sign of emotional maturity. One could question whether it's actually a good thing that such people practice what they're uncomfortable with and worse still, create children in the act...

    Other possibility is of course that the whole "it has nothing to do with the sexual orientation that was expressed"-part is just a smoke screen, but as I have faith in humanity... oh, damn, that's not true...

  • MistaLarge #100 3 years ago

    I had finished with this thread, but my curiosity about Cerrie Burnell (I missed that story) led me to find this quote from a relevant news article:

    "Child psychologist Penelope Leach says children are faced with so much variety in the world that they do tend to accept what they see, unless someone else implies to them that something is wrong."

    Someone such as E perhaps?
    Edited by 1 at 05/03/09 @ 08:11

  • kangarootoo #101 3 years ago

    Seems a few of you get where I am coming from on this. I think these two points sum it up best.

    "You can only get upset over such a fact if you feel uncomfortable with the subject in the first place, which isn't really a sign of emotional maturity."

    "children are faced with so much variety in the world that they do tend to accept what they see, unless someone else implies to them that something is wrong."

    I cannot remember a single instance in my entire childhood where I asked my parents a question about something and they told me not to "ask questions like that".

    It never became an emotional issue, it never became an opportunity for them to try and steer my morals to match their own, they would simply give me answers that would expand my understanding. And that has clearly formed my own mind set. There is simply no such thing as an "inappropriate subject for discussion", ever.


    I'm going to retire from this thread now, as even I am getting sick of reading my own warblings :)