Microsoft quiet on Forza 3 rumours Comments by Robert Purchese

Never got tis but it looks like it could be good fun. Think I'll wait till 3 despite bargain bucket price of 2 now.

With this, Shift and Dirt 2, looking good for driving games.

Guess this will go up against GT5!! Release date for both at E3 ..guaranteed

Bring back point to point races please!

"Bring back point to point races please!"

+1

There's nothing in the same league as Forza 2 on consoles, it's got a fantastic level of realism whilst also having great looking super smooth 60fps framerate and quality tracks like Autumn Ring and Laguna Seca. Forza 3 should be an absolutely monumental game, pushing the bar even farther out of reach from other racers.

The one thing I really really hope they don't do is go down the GT route and compromise the gameplay to get a few extra polygons on the screen.

I also don't want a 'story'. It's a racing game not an RPG. A menu with races broken down by class is all that's required.

@farticusmaximus the fact you called it Autumn Ring (Maple Valley in Forza 2 :P) shows how much Forza aspires to be GT. I've got Forza 2 and while I am impressed, the sheer lack of tracks makes things too repetitive; career mode gets incredibly dire after a while racing round Suzuka East and Tsukuba Short a million times over. Definitely a good game, but they sacrificed track numbers to increase the number of cars available in the game. While the handling model is definitely good in Forza 2, it's still no GT sadly (been playing Prologue on my PS3 and yes some will argue it's a glorified demo but it's still awesome amounts of fun) :)

Autumn '09 release for Forza 3, excellent news.

2 DVDs? If you've got a HD DVD drive will that negate any disc swapping?

@patch

Doubt it since the HDDVD drive doesn't play games. Let's hope there's an install to HDD option for both discs so we only need to put in 1 to play instead though.

"While the handling model is definitely good in Forza 2, it's still no GT sadly"

Sadly? No no, I'm very glad it's not like GT. GT is an arcade racer pure and simple. Forza is not as hardcore a sim as Race Pro or a lot of PC sim racers but it's nothing at all like the rail-riding damage-free bumpercar fest that GT is. They are not even the same sub-genre of racing game.

Not putting down GT as it's a fun game to play and achieves the 'car porn' feel it sets out to acheive, but comparing GT to Forza is like comparing Sega Rally to the Colin McRae games of old.

Granted that the lack of damage modelling impacts the handling and makes the game a little more arcade like overall, but at the core of the game the weight behind each car, the grunt of the engine and the extreme impact something like a carbon driveshaft makes to the handling of the car is better realized in GT than in Forza. Was having this discussion with my brother a while ago, and where every GT feels different (i.e. gets better with every new iteration) Forza doesn't feel like it's stepped up much. Sure it's no Race Pro, and I'm not saying Forza's bad, I love it personally, but like my brother pointed out, it does feel a little Dreamcasty. Looking forward to Forza 3 though :)

"the extreme impact something like a carbon driveshaft makes to the handling of the car is better realized in GT than in Forza"

I guess I'm coming at it from a different angle than you. In real life these things do not have the impact that they do in GT. Tuning is a very subtle art and you simply don't see huge changes like that.

I'm by no means a professional driver, but having spent a lot of time and money building and tuning my real life GT-Four for track days I see a great many more parallels in Forza than GT.

GT is what we *wished* tuning was like, Forza is more like how it actually is, but I do appreciate that realism is not always what people want from gaming. :)

EDIT: Before the PC crowd arrive and start mocking, yes I know there are more realistic racing games but were' talking about Forza and GT here.

Forza 3?! O-M-G. If this gets announced on E3 with a 2009 release date I will.. actually, I don't know what I will do.. probably just be very happy.

the other thing that still marks forza 2 out for me is that even now after X months of release when you race online everyone still seems to use a mix of cars - there isn't really one for each class that blows everything else away. Shame all the police car decals seem to have disappeared though.

I'm more looking forward to codemasters' F1 game though tbh, though with a little trepidation

i gave up on gt and forza games a looong time ago, they just make me fall asleep now. I played Forza 1 and GT 1, 2 and 3 to death, but now i just cant get into them. Roll on FUEL.

" Forza 2's car models were pretty bad and had a low poly-count"

Wrong, there was a small difference in the poly count but the main difference was the lighting model.


"One of the most important things for car enthusiasts."

The most important thing for people who like to *look* at cars, but certainly nowhere near top priority for people who like to *drive* cars.

That's what separates GT and Forza and makes comparisons moot. One is for driving, one is for looking at.

@Farticus
I thought the main difference was that a full Forza game actually gets released occasionally ;)

Seriously given the time taken Polyphony need to make serious progress on stuff like collisions, damage modelling and online. I'd like to be surprised by what they come up with but I have my doubts.

farticusmaximus

If you use wheels on both games, GT5 Prologue would come up on top when it comes to creating a more realistic physics. All the cars in Forza 2 oversteers and have incredible traction, so much so that you can't do proper drifting with the cars. That alone tells you that Forza 2 has a lesser physics than GT5 Prologue. FYI- Drifitng is one of the racing mode in Prologue. Another thing to consider is that in its current form, Forza 2 is optimized for the 360 controller as oppose to a Force Feedback Wheel- the top times in Forza 2 leaderboard are filled with gamepad racers while it's the opposite in GT5 Prologue (although there's no indicator as to whether wheel or pad are being used, it's easily discernible by the smooth movement of the steering wheel).
Forza 2 is a credible racer and as a game it's more complete than Prologue but when it comes to advanced driving physics, it' GT5 Prologue, not Forza 2 that's better.

I totally agree with Farticus.... (funny name) Forza has way better physics and in my opinion is more realistic. In forza you can even tell how many tires have lost grip by even the sound effects. I'm sorry, but when i played GT4 and Prolougue, they still have the same tire screech noise. I don't know if it's for nostalgia or what, but it sucks to me and takes away from the immersion. Another important aspect to the driving mechanics in Forza is that the tire temp actually does matter. It's not some glorified cosmetic after-thought. Your tires temp actually affects the way your car handles in Forza. And all the race data that is displayed Live and in the replays is phenomenal.

GT looks good, but for the automotive enthusiast Forza is the better console series between these two. it gives us more then just pretty looks.

Even the Forza community is better. There are some players that all they do is develop cars that have the same real world tuning specs as their realworld counterparts. Not only that, they specialize in tuning cars for specific tracks. And i'm talking about way more in depth tuning then just downforce and ride height. GT doesn't even offer that level of interaction.

I'm sorry, but the bottom line is that GT is not even in the same league. Visually it gets the nod, but everything else belongs to the Forza series.

@myke6699: Excuse me, now you are comparing Racing Wheels.... Why don't you tell me how that tells the physics of the game? There could be delay in the racing wheel, there are so many variables as to what can affect how the car handles with the racing wheels it's not even funny.

If MS allowed Forza to be able to use the Logitech Racing wheel, what would you say then? And drifting in Forza is closer to reality then GT, If you actually go to the Forza sight, they actually have posts and videos that teach you how to drift. Oh and in Forza (like in Reality) you have to tune your car for drifting if you want it to drift better. Otherwise what you are doing is called a powerslide.

There is a difference between powerslide and drifting. I do hope you know that. And last time i checked initially you couldn't adjust the tuning in prologue when it came out, but you were able to drift with a stock lotus.... Yeah, right.... LOL

"All the cars in Forza 2 oversteers and have incredible traction, so much so that you can't do proper drifting with the cars. That alone tells you that Forza 2 has a lesser physics than GT5 Prologue."

Oh sure it does, sure it does...

But using AI cars or railing as overshoot bumpers while I safely bounce my way to an easy victory with no penalty whatsoever, that's realism. Well isnt it?

As JasonB81 pointed out, when I'm hurtling round a corner on the very edge of traction and I can tell which individual tyre is losing grip, then on top of that I can tell whether it's due to my suspension setup or that my tyres were too hot or too cold, then I know I'm playing something realistic.

I guess it all comes down to opinions and we'll have to wait till Forza 3 and GT5 comes out. But here's something to ponder upon:

Drifiting in GT5 Prologue- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZQVFDRMqds

In Forza 2- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYHLQ9eVVrk

And the real thing- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6AIPrgkO...


If you show me a better video for Forza 2, please let me know. But from these, GT5 Prologue is definitely the one closer to reality. Forza 2 looked too easy and more cartoon like.

"I guess it all comes down to opinions."

That's the thing about realism, it isnt based on opinion. Also, the debate of realism is not decided by which game represents drift the most accurately as drift is only a small element of the entire handling model.

Sounds to me like you should be comparing GT to a Fast and the Furious style game rather than a track racing game.


"I guess we'll have to wait till Forza 3 and GT5 comes out."

Why? I thought we were discussing Forza 2 and GT5p?

Nice drift videos there, but for a better comparison try http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8SoiKScalc

So what farticus is saying is we should now compare GT to MCLA. They definitely are in totally different leagues. However, the thing that erks me about Forza 2 is the sheer lack of tracks; and I'm not comparing it to GT5p, because yes it's a demo. I popped in GT4 yesterday and took a whirl round Grand Valley, there's nothing like it in Forza. The original courses in GT are just miles ahead - let's look at New York City Circuit for example. Forza 2: clearly inspired by GT. That said, both very good games on two very different consoles :)

i still dont think it looks like the Forza logo,unless they have changed it recently and i havent seen it...it looks more like,Wolfenstien,LOL

"That's the thing about realism, it isnt based on opinion. "

In an ideal world that would be true. If the gaming world were to be devoid of fanboys and their antics, that would be true. But let us not fooled ourselves into thinking that either of us are in no way prejudiced.
Drifting is just a term. What's more important is that when you push the driving physics to its max, you end up knowing exactly where its limit rest. Just view the video (Ashen- that's a great video and I love the Nissan Silvia which is why I'm so looking forward to NFS:SHIFT where the car wlll be featured).
And if realism is what we're after, neither of these game is at the pinnacle. Race Pro is the most realistic racing/driving sim on a console. Next to it, both GT5P and Forza 2 would clearly be classified as "Simcade".

Forza 2 wasn't a 9/10 game. The progression of the career mode fell apart at level 40-odd.

for me it fell apart around level 20 - too much repetition

While I agree that Forza 2 is a great simulation, with good physics and a reasonable damage system... I have to say, NO ONE plays the game this way!!!

Set up a server with all driver aids off, full damage system on, and dare I suggest... with one of the proper racing car series and no one will play. However set up an arcade game with slow crap cars (ie. No damage, ABS, traction, etc, on one of those glorified salesmens/mother's runabouts range of vehicles) and gamers flock!?!? Even more likely to get people to join is to set up the most pointless racetrack of all time, that American bowl thing. Pointless track.

So set up a simulation server and one or two people will join, then quickly leave when they realise they can't actually compete without their beloved ABS or traction control on. It seems 85% leave within the first two corners of a proper simulation race. Half of the rest go before the end of the race. And the others leave within two or three races if they don't win. And this is on what everyone seems to like.. the Wacky racers cars.. U rated. I gave up playing this game online 18 months ago because no one cared to play the game as, I believe, it was designed to be. Now having come back again, I wrongly thought people might have improved enough to want to play the game as hardcore and difficult as it can be. How wrong was I?

If people want an arcade racer, there are driving games that do it better than Forza. If people want games without damage, or are easy to drive there are more attractractive graphics and larger selection of tracks or cars in other games. I really love Forza 2, when it's played as a simulation with the proper racing cars. But this watered down version everyone continues to play is poor. I have to agree with the PS fanboys and lovers of Gran Tourismo... the way 99% of people play Forza, they would be better suited to GT... it's far less sim, it has no damage, and it has a larger range of boring cars you can unrealistically supe up and more tracks.

All the unique features of Forza are wasted on 99% of people who play it. It's absolutely incredible.

I assume Forza will go the way of TOCA and Colin McRae, and just become an out and out arcade racer one day. There seems little point in Turn 10 wasting time and effort developing features that no one has either the interest or skill in playing. If not with Forza 3, surely by the fourth they'll get rid of the damage system, drop the R1, 2, 3 and 4 series of cars and make all the cars stick to the track like every other racer.