Manhunt 2
Don't ban this 'Sick Filth'?
Last week's routine trawl of the DVD trade-in dug up a £2.50 copy of Rob Zombie's horror film debut House Of 1000 Corpses. Like its demented follow-up The Devil's Rejects, it was a crass lesson in subversive terror, spooning out the splatter in big, thick globs. Limb amputation, bloody scalping and wide-awake brain surgery, all orchestrated on whiter-than-white victims by deranged, dribbling killers, whose mockery of classic genre convention saw them not only kick shit in such hideous fashion, but get away with the whole damn thing too. Another day in the age of the sado-horror flick.
Now let's take a small jaunt back to the previous week, perched on the tip of a black, leather sofa, as I was, in Rockstar's cosy office in London's billionaire playground of Chelsea. Up ahead, flashing on a giant screen, gentle-looking amnesiac Daniel Lamb (a twisted joke, surely?) was smashing in some stranger's head (presumably, a bad person) with a heavy slab from a toilet system while taking a pee.
Crrraacckkk (or it could've been more of a crrrrunnnchhh - either way, there were some pretty gratifying sound effects going on there that suggested this wasn't some lazy-arsed robbing of the BBC sound library).
Soon I was being treated to some tastier, more stylised set pieces as villains were multi-punctured in iron maidens and winched to the ceiling on giant, two-pronged hooks. And blood, conspiring with those great schlocky sound effects, was rampant in full glorious flow.
Oh sorry, let me introduce you to the world of Manhunt 2 by the way...
Just two days prior to my visit, the BBFC had famously denied Rockstar's 'stalk 'n slash' sequel an age rating, condemning it for "unremitting bleakness and callousness of tone". This, the normally liberating BBFC, who were passing torture scenes on innocent victims in movieland, and had yet to viciously waggle a finger at a video game since Carmageddon in the late '90s. It all seemed to point to one resounding fact - that Rockstar must surely have cocked up somewhere on a spectacularly grand scale.

However, if it's the grimace-provoking gore and relentless sadism that has ruffled the BBFC, then consider that the impact of watching the likes of The Devil's Rejects and Hostel were (for me personally, at least) far more powerful and repellent than the executions in Manhunt 2. Call it a photo-realism thing, or the fact that such accounts were being perpetrated on emotionally more developed and humanistic characters (both very significant factors), but while I was disturbed by the brutal raping of The Hills Have Eyes remake, and the spine severing of Wolf Creek, I don't ever recall wincing at Manhunt 2's violence once. And let's not forget who our victims supposedly are in Manhunt 2, either.
Inevitably the BBFC's concerns crawl back to that complex, age-old passivity versus interactivity argument. In movies, you're the voyeur, in the former, you're the player. Manhunt 2's gameplay focus (and appeal) lies upon the stalking and killing of villains, where not only are you required to carry out such atrocities, you're encouraged to do it in such a skilful manner that comes the reward of extra horrific deaths. Not nice on paper, granted, but perhaps little different to any gore-hungry movie fan seeking out the 'Uncut Version' of their favourite flick on DVD. But as the BBFC stresses, there's barely any gameplay alternatives in Manhunt 2 outside of the sadistic slaying, making such entertainment even more morally unnerving.

Okay, fair enough, point taken, but then again, perhaps unsuspectingly, the BBFC has also just described the gameplay of the original Manhunt, which incidentally passed through the radar with an 18 certificate in 2004, and the two games, in my opinion, play almost identically. And what's the horror genre for if not for shocking?
Time to look at the sequel in more detail, methinks...
First up, the new Wii control has come under severe scrutiny, critics claiming it brings a dangerous level of interactivity to your killing spree. Suddenly, you're not pressing buttons, you're 'slashing away like a total nutjob'. Well, call me 'cackhanded' with the old motion sensor control, but I wouldn't exactly describe my gaming actions as being akin to the onscreen mutilating. In fact, so concentrating was I on repeating the onscreen prompts, that the fact that I was committing heinous murder, for me, seemed rather inconsequential.
Indeed, as has been highlighted in arguments elsewhere, if Rockstar really wanted to capture the sensation of slaughter, it would surely have integrated free-roaming, improvised control of the motion-controller (as in Wii Sports), not the mini-game 'repeat the actions' system.

Elsewhere, and back to the issue of 'gore', and indeed Manhunt 2 has amped up the splatter with the introduction of its new 'environmental kills'. No need to rely on shards of glass to do your dirty work, people, you can pack your foes off into whirring grinders, or drill holes in their faces while they're skewered down into dentistry chairs. Of course, this has been done all before in 2004 with The Punisher. If my memory serves, I was part of a 20-man journalist crew at a Chicago showcase who 'amused' by scenes involving car compactors, piranha tanks, laser cutters and sausage mincing machines. The Punisher escaped (albeit, with some hint of warning) with the all-important 18 certificate - to reasonable acclaim, and the overall group press reaction to such over-the-top, inventive, excessive comic-book violence was one of blackly comic chuckles. The Devil's Rejects movie screening two years later, on the other hand, provoked entirely different reactions among its journalistic audience, some seeming genuinely upset at the levels of sadism, some of which was misogynist, being carried out against its incredibly innocent protagonists.
Please feel free to cite photo-realism, emotional intensity, profundity, characterisation, mood, tone, and the victims of such horror, for the differences in response.
So, on the grounds discussed thus far, even with the passivity versus interactivity gaming argument (which is somewhat spoiled by the gameplay similarities between not-banned prequel and sequel), it would seem Manhunt 2 has been hard done by. Sadly, things just never are that black and white.
Returning to The Punisher, THQ's bloody shooter boasted a tone heavily comic-book in nature, a Marvel world so over-the-top, a lead star so anti-heroically far-fetched, and villains so obviously bad (and shallow), that the whole experience, despite the violence, was really quite hilarious in a disgustingly twisted way. As with Max Payne, it was pure John Woo bullet opera served up for the video game medium. Interestingly, there was even a hint of narrative purpose to some of the environmental kills, too - interrogation. By threatening certain captors with gruesome demises, you could extract important information, and then decide whether they should croak it or not.
Now, let's discuss one of the three Manhunt 2's levels that I was taken through, entitled Sexual Deviants. After some apparent snooping, the quest for your identity leads you to a mysterious S&M club. As soon as I was inside this club, my character was ruthlessly eliminating its inhabitants in that typical Manhunt extreme brutality. We were several levels into the game, so perhaps the story may have been slightly out of context, but I honestly couldn't see how there was any logical justification for your character's slaughter of everyone and anyone in such a sadistic manner.

The assumption, of course, is that if you don't kill, they kill you, but hell, this was an S&M club, not the original Manhunt where you're imprisoned in a cat-and-mouse arena, facing off against a bunch of murderous punks. Here, I could easily have been gutting the cleaner. As the 'outside' gamer, we know that we need to kill these people. But does your character?
If tiny little alarm bells were ringing, then they were bashing me in the cranium when I encountered the door puzzle. Having butchered nearly every worker of the club's top floor with abattoir-like precision, my path into the next section was blocked by a doorman operating the other side of a doorflap. Guess what, he wouldn't let me through because he didn't recognise me.
So hang on a second, I'd just been murdering everyone else in the club because I assumed they'd kill me, and here was this guy - a genuine member of security refusing me right of passage because he didn't know who I was. Go and tell that to the bloodied, twitching hole-ridden carcass of the barman I'd just gleefully castrated and disembowelled with a large, rusty medieval mace...

To intensify the silliness, the puzzle was cracked using a decapitated head of any of my murder victims, incidentally, all of whom were wearing gimps masks. Such perverted disguise didn't stop the doorman recognising our character as Bill, John or Tony, though - perhaps he had a distinguishable incisor tooth or something...? Maybe. Who knows? Not me. I was flummoxed.
So shoot me for being pedantic, but outside of that 'snuff movie' arena of the original, I genuinely felt unjustified in the bloodshed. Who for me to call Rockstar's development team lazy after the investment and time in producing such an effective thriller (which Manhunt 2 most certainly is), but it hints of too much time being spent on the mood and the set-pieces, and not enough on the psychological reasoning behind the ordeal.
Even your character, Mr Lamb, is an odd one. In Manhunt, you played a hardened criminal, forced to kill. Here, you're an amnesiac escaping an asylum, who, incidentally, vomits after committing his first kill. Next thing you know it, he's ripping balls off with pliers and sawing unfortunates in half with DIY tools. Okay, so there's a strong implication of madness, illustrated through the presence of a mysterious companion who follows you through parts of the game (a voice in your head, a ghost? Expect plot developments to reveal all). But it's too ambiguous. Even for a videogame, which requires no strong character development. But we're in dangerous waters here. Why not establish the fact he's a schizophrenic or a madman - distance him from us, the player - find justification in his behaviour.

Of course, it's impossible to be too critical - I only played/saw three levels of the game, but if the narrative holes are apparent here, then God knows what else lurks in the rest of the story.
If there's a conclusion to be gained from my brief time with Manhunt 2, it's that Rockstar appears to have been naïve and reckless when, considering the microscope its predecessor fell under, it should have been cautious, clever and alert. Because for all the other criticisms levelled against it, there's too much grey area and weighty arguments for it to fight back with.
Rockstar hasn't leapt dramatically over the mark, but through slight carelessness, has stumbled over it, and given fuel for fire for people a little too wary of video games. After all, there's always the knowledge that 18 certificates won't stop masses of minors desiring, and getting hold of, these games. Let's just hope its not too late for the publisher/developer to find some kind of reprieve for this fantastic game. Even if it does mean zombies and green blood...
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Comments (67) Latest comment 4 years ago
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errr
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videogames let me get my worst fantasies out of my system, stop it from getting backed up and exploding one day so that i find myself in a clock tower with a high powered rifle.
if they dont release this game uncut soon, i might just have to start killing people.
incidentally what would jack thompsons stance be on a videogame killer that went nuts because he DIDN'T play a violent rockstar game?
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The game itself sounds alright though. No more brutal than the first really. Plus theres a Hitman level where you garotte your way around an S&M club. But then there are some non-lethal options there I suppose.
The Wii controller being based around onscreen prompts takes away from the whole 'murder sim' argument. Whenever I'm playing a game with QTE's I always miss the cool stuff cause im concentrating on what buttons to press.
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Oh wait?!
No europe release?
I'll be in Holland in Sept...
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Back to the point anyway...
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"Good article but to be honest, getting a bit bored of the manhunt 2 controversy now. It's like, sooooo two weeks ago."
Then you're being very naive. The Daily Mail brigade, fresh from pressuring the BBFC into this one, are after GTA4, since we just admitted that violent videogames cause real crime (otherwise why did we ban this one). Then they'll be after every game with any kind of illegal activity in.
And can you think of one of your favourite games that doesn't? I can't.
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Not really. There's a level in an S&M club, but you're certainly not expected to kill everyone inside. You're there to evade detection and kill your target. Who is, of course, EEEEVIL.
With regard to the feature, I think a clue to the BBFC's decision can be found in comments such as:
Call it a photo-realism thing, or the fact that such accounts were being perpetrated on emotionally more developed and humanistic characters (both very significant factors), but while I was disturbed by the brutal raping of The Hills Have Eyes remake, and the spine severing of Wolf Creek, I don't ever recall wincing at Manhunt 2's violence once.
In fact, so concentrating was I on repeating the onscreen prompts, that the fact that I was committing heinous murder, for me, seemed rather inconsequential.
Similar levels of violence, yet those on the movie screen shock and repel. Those in the game elicit no emotional reaction. I think that's the problem. Not that kids will play these games and become foaming castrationists, but that they'll view disembowelling a stranger and hanging him with his own guts as just another task to be performed to get to the next level. There's a passive effort-reward equation at work there that's rather disturbing.
Dwelling on movies like The Devil's Rejects versus Manhunt 2 is ultimately a bit of a wild goose chase. The reason those movies work, why they horrify and upset (or thrill) us, is because cinema has long since absorbed the ability to deliver subtext and emotional paradox. The Firefly clan of 1000 Corpses and Devil's Rejects are absolute monsters. But then so is the Sheriff pursuing them. It's a very nihlistic film, and Rob Zombie is more than just a dumb gore merchant. Quite simply, these sorts of movies - when they're done well - make you squirm and make you think. They force you to reconcile issues of morality and revenge and violence. That they do this while revelling in those issues is one of the wonderful, complicated joys of exploitation cinema.
Much as we'd like to pretend otherwise, videogames aren't at that narrative level yet. The characters aren't complex enough, the situations are designed for interaction not introspection. I firmly believe that games will reach that level, and when they do we'll have something quite spectacular - but that maturity isn't going to come from diving straight into the extremes of graphic violence and claiming there's artistic merit inherent in the transgression.
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The Daily Mail brigade can say whatever they like frankly. Everything ive seen from the BBFC suggests they are very rational and they took the step to ban this game based on content not on media pressure.
Given that the last game they refused a cert to (initially) was carmageddon I doubt we need to worry ourselves that suddenly they will start banning games left and right. Especially GTA which has gone through several iterations unmolested by the censors (in the UK at least) and is unlikely to change its tone to one of 'unremitting bleakness' etc.
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(Link to report
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A lack of maturity in video games as a medium means that most game stories, narratives and characters are simplistic and underdeveloped. Usually, the result of this is simply an unengaging, threadbare plot riddled with corny clichés and bald space-marines. But, when they tackle subjects as controversial as sadism and psychosis, this lack of sophistication means that the brutality has no point or meaning; making it gratuitous.
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Man, this chick's milf.
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Then there is the seperate issue of BBFC's rating. Im 29 (not particularly old) but 10/15 years ago films that are current rated 15 would have been rated 18 due to there content, likewise alot of 12 rated films would have been 15. Its all to do with money and greed and getting a bigger audience in for your film. Its not very often that you see 18 rated films these days compared to days of old and it is because once a film is classified as 18 the movie studios lose a HUGE audience ie: all the teenagers who think its cool to have seen these films.
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Slow down. Take it step by step. Don't make enormous leap of subjects. I'd like to know what you actually mean.
(I suspect I just disagree, but I'd like to know)
KG
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I'm not too worried about films turning from an 18 to a 15, my annoyance is with blatant 18 films turning to a 12 (which means in the UK a five year old can go see it).
eg Bourne Supremacy, made especially blurry so it would evade any 18 rating, but in essence, no 12 yr old would come even close to understanding it. In the end, it just seems patronising to me as an adult, because I'd like to see a normal fight scene with the camera not shaking from side to side. Grr. Rant over.
DanWhitehead + GordonBennet
+1
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The need to save his family and revenge himself on the director removed much of my unease for the acts of violence I was committing, not that I'm sure it should have, I think I grew up watching to many westerns.
By all accounts Manhunt 2 allows you to torture and kill the innocent and saying "but your character is a nut job so that's ok" doesn't seem enough to justify its release.
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Interactive Media where you perform unnecessary sadistic photo realistic killing for no reason = ban.
I'd say fair enough.
I'm happy enough killing aliens and zombies in games. I really don't need or want to kill and torture innocent people.
If you don't think any games should be banned consider these for possible titles of games.
Jihad Boomer Man.
Leisure Suit Kiddie fiddlers Adventures in Bangkok.
Kindergarten Killer.
Celebrity Rapist.
I'm sure you can think up 50 or so more disturbing game ideas that should never be made.
But who knows in 20 years we will probably see far worse. If the trend of more and more violence and less and less censorship continues we can look forward to our future. Plugged into our mind pods and wired to the matrix living out all sorts of psychotic fantasies while the real world burns.
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Create your own custom rapist and assign them signiture rape moves.
Use Co-op mode to tag-team unwitting celebs for bonus points!
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@Krun
"I'd say fair enough. I can't see why anyone would want to play something like this anyway."
Heh, that's not exactly a great justification for censorship. I can't see why anyone would want to read the Express or Mail, but... actually hang on a minute
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Have you actually looked at the game engine? It's a million miles away from photo realistic.
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Or it could just be that the BBFC finally started to loosen up and realised that not all movie violence is the same. They began to take more notice of context and intent, rather than just ticking boxes and saying "too violent, give it an 18"
As studios have no influence on what rating a film gets - and often complain about this fact - there's no reason to believe that more permissive ratings are a commercial decision. Many old 18 ratings have since been reclassified to 15. The later Elm Street sequels, which were high on goo but low on gore, are now 15 - and quite right too.
Its not very often that you see 18 rated films these days compared to days of old and it is because once a film is classified as 18 the movie studios lose a HUGE audience ie: all the teenagers who think its cool to have seen these films.
That's why most directors are contractually obliged to deliver a movie geared towards a specific rating. Die Hard 4.0 was designed from the start to earn a PG13 (or a 12A/15 in the UK).
The 18 rating is always going to be less common that the more mainstream PG. That's just common sense. If you look at the BBFC's most recent ratings decisions, which are always available and constantly updated on their website, you'll see that they've awarded fifteen theatrical 18 certificates in the last year. Some are for foreign movies, some are for horror. One is for the new Ridley Scott movie with Russell Crowe and Denzel Washington. Another is for the new Kevin Costner film. It's pretty clear that the certificate is finally being used for what it was intended, to distinguish movies with strong adult content rather than a catch-all rating for cheap horror and action movies.
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even so it does sound like manhunt 2 does cross the line... and i find the current trend of torture-porn movies to be similarly distateful...
even 80s banned movies like 'i spit on your grave', which i found horrendous to watch, had a reasonable justification for the depravity (gang-raped women revenging herself on her attackers)...
and +1000 points to sofalover for one of the funniest posts, ever....
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I agree, but only in the sense that I think this sort of control should be exercised voluntarily by media industries instead.
What has happened in the USA, where a voluntary industry body rated the game AO, and Sony and Nintendo stepped in and said they wouldn't release it on their platforms, strikes me as a much healthier situation than having a government body step in and impose a ban.
Of course, if Rockstar seriously believed that this game had genuine artistic and cultural worth, there are tons of avenues open to them to get it out in front of people. There's nothing stopping them from getting critics to play the game and make up their own minds (which they haven't done). There's nothing stopping them from choosing to release the game on an unregulated platform like the PC, perhaps over a download service, so people in general can experience it and make up their own minds. Hell, the game can still be enjoyed in public if they take the right steps - the BFI has shown many "banned" films over the years.
This ban stops them from making a wodge of cash from selling their art to the public at large. That's what they're upset about - not art, commerce.
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KG
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Oh, wait, they probably already have.
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However, herein lies the problem of Manhunt 2, at least according the testimony of the writer of this EG article:
but while I was disturbed by the brutal raping of The Hills Have Eyes remake, and the spine severing of Wolf Creek, I don't ever recall wincing at Manhunt 2's violence once.
Sure, it could be just that the writer himself has played so many videogames that he doesn't react to the violence in them the way some casual gamer would, but at the same it makes you think that maybe Manhunt 2 doesn't raise enough moral questions or manage to present it's "sick filth" in a way that makes really wince and get disturbed.
There's a place for straight up violent porn and horror porn - even fake snuff films - but it's not in the mainstream entertainment. It's where people who enjoy sadism and masochism wander for a fix. (andromeda above my post mentioned August Underground's material, that's a perfect example of the extreme underground horror cinema phenomena of today). There's nothing wrong with that, per se, since it only means that the people watching this stuff are probably not making the horrible mistake of recreating their ideas of good time in the real life.
However, I'd never want to see fake snuff films or violent porn films become mainstream cinema. One can argue that Eli Roth showed us the extreme end of that, and got slapped in the face for forgetting the film and just showing the "sick filth".
By the way, if anyone wants to see a really good film about "sick filth", rent the hugely underrated Joel Schumacher film, 8MM (starring Nicolas Cage). That film makes you really feel bad inside, in a good way, and think about the wide spectrum of human condition and the possibilities of exploitation it opens up in the wrong hands.
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Not sure I understand the value of this distinction. As Rob pointed out in his GI.biz editorial, the effect is the same. I'm not sure how having a game banned by a voluntary panel (presumably including representatives of rival publishers?) would be any less restrictive than having a game banned by a state-funded, yet independent of government, body such as the BBFC.
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Rockstart pushed their luck too far and it's bitten them in the arse. Hopefully they might start working on games with entertaining gameplay instead of mindless violence.
I don't believe the 18 cert's work as most parent buy whatever it takes to keep their kids happy/out of their faces. I've personally seen a father buying GTA for his son who could not have been more than 10.
If you give me the choice between 100 Manhunt games versus something new and entertaining like LocoRocco, I'll pick LoccoRocco any time. Manhunt 2 being banned is no loss to humanity and certainly not worthy of an article extolling it's virtues.
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At any rate, Manhunt 2 might one of the first videogames that really do stir up some valid points about the lenghts violence can go in this medium. It won't end here, but the discussion has been much more reasonable and with warrant than with any of the GTA games in the past.
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Well that's not very nice is it? I wasn't dictating anything, I was just voicing my opinion in support of the BBFC, and if you have a problem with people having opinions that differ from yours, I'd suggest something more constructive than calling them a cunt and saying you'd piss on their grave. It detracts from whatever point you're trying to put across and makes you seem like an idiot. Well, seem like more of an idiot than you did already.
I have strong opinions on this topic, and I'll argue the point till the cows come home so if you actually want to discuss it I'd be happy to join in.
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I think I'm going to have to stop you there guys, because I'm sure I just heard... Yes, definitely, the cows have just come home and are putting the kettle on. Discussion over.
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This is what unsettles me, and one of the reasons for the BBFC's decision -- desensitisation. Another reason of course is that the game lacks even the moral "protagonist surviving against villains" setup that the first one had. You explain how the lead character of this game is an amnesiac who may or may not be mentally ill, who is able to kill innocent people in the game world. The implication is that "It's okay because he's crazy." But no, it's not okay. Letting players fulfil extremely detailed murder fantasies in the first game was only tenuously acceptable; but letting players fulfil extremely detailed murder fantasies as an amnesiac psycho? It's psychologically dangerous.
I don't think any psychologically healthy person can turn into a killer by playing a violent game; but it certainly cannot aid their psychological health either. It can only make healthy people grim and desensitised, and give unhealthy people some very dangerous material to fuel their illness.
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Some level of (sane) censorship is a sad necessity in society, methinks, because human beings are capable of saying and (more relevantly) listening to some incredibly loathful and hurtful things (beastiality, racism, paedophilia as examples) - but that doesn't mean this censorship can be justified because, to me, the reason for singling out Manhunt 2 is not depravity, or violence, or blood, or even evidence of hurtful impact on adults, but because it's a videogame and those have been in the news recently.
Even if it's repulsive, trashy 'entertainment' I can't see how the BBFC can ban it on this level and yet not the myriad of low budget, high sadism torture porn which exist solely to show human suffering and usually the violent antagonist winning. Or indeed Scary Movie sequels. To me it reeks of hypocracy to censor on this 'level'.
This is what unsettles me, and one of the reasons for the BBFC's decision -- desensitisation.
Or you could view it as the human brain being more than aware it's only a game (something the BBFC noted), and thus not emphasising (not in the sense of desentisation, but in the sense of know this isn't real) as with 'real' people in realistic violence. I've played most of the most violent (unbanned) games methinks, but I still wince at the very sight of blood in reality. My personal thoughts would be that any rational adult knows the difference enough between an interactive game and reality (or a believable simulcra like a movie) not to wince at it - and those who don't know the difference between a game and reality I'd expect to have deeper rooted issues than video-game desensitization.
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If you want semi-skimmed you're screwed though. and have you seen the mess they make? honestly, you think they'd wipe their feet, but noooooo........
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Yeah, they can put the kettle on and do the milk but they always fuck up pouring the water and doing the stirring due to having hooves rather than opposable thumbs. Useless bloody bovines.
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As for killing aliens - how do you know those aliens don't have caring families back at their home planets that will miss them? Huh?
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I believe to overcome this, our society must accept some games can be for adults only.
It just wont happen on a games consol.
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No it's not. It's not a simulator anything. It's a damn game. If I want to chop heads off in games for whatever reason, let me.
I'd also like to point out there still isn't solid scientific evidence that states playing violent games somehow has more 'negative' effects on your brains than watching similarly violent movies. There just isn't any grounds for this ban other than the BBFC going 'oh this unremitting bleakness, no one should be allowed to CHOOSE to play this!'
One hundred percent shit of the bull.
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There are a whole lot of people (and I am not just talking about children) out there who need someone to make decisions for them and give them some rules and regulations. You may be sane enough to sit through all of the Face Of Death and Guinea Pig flicks and play all the violent games in the world, but that doesn't mean they should be readily available without certification or that there shouldn't be a censorship system.
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Although not all, I must add. There have been some decent anti-censorship arguments in this thread; shame they are in a minority.
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Why? Why do you?
Nothing illegal was done to create this game so why the hell should I as an adult be banned from playing it?
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So because there are crap parents, the rest of us should be punished.
Let's ban cars, films, knives and anything else with an age rating. Since of course age restrictions don't work in your world.
Why not prosecute the parents who do this instead?
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There are lots of things that are banned even though nothing illegal was done during the creation.
Whether or not this is right or not is another matter. But a precedent is not being set here, which is why other than a few rabid Daily Mail readers and video games enthusiasts nobody really gives a f'k.
"Let's ban cars, films, knives and anything else with an age rating. Since of course age restrictions don't work in your world. "
As far as I'm aware, age restriction enforcement played no part in the BBFC decision.
I do agree with your point that parents should be held responsible if their kids see this stuff. But that brings a whole new level of infringing people's privacy etc.
"This is a videogame. I find the violence in this no worse than the violence in any other games because (and this is the science bit, fact fans)- IT'S NOT REAL. "
Again, the point of this is ?? There are many bad things you could depict in a game that aren't real but I suspect the majority of people would rather not see being used as entertainment.
"Shouldn't you be more worried, all you moral crusaders, about people who chose to do that when that's not the point of gta, rather than in a game like this where violence is the main driving force behind the plot? "
This whole discussion is passing you by isn't it ? The main driving force is the whole fucking reason for the ban. From the BBFC spokesman, "'unrelenting focus on stalking and brutal slaying, and the sheer lack of alternative pleasures on offer to the gamer.'".
I hate bloody censorship. It's a bad thing - but the arguments against it here are so confused, and display such a wobbly grip of logic.
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Manhunt? Couldn't care less tbh....
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The only way I can see of getting across to people like this, is to make it so the boxart has no image on it and a great big '18' certificate in the middle of the box with a warning of the content directly underneath.
All these sort of games should be kept hidden behind the counter, so you have to ask the salesperson for it, they would then have to call the manager, who would have to agree that the person is def over the age of '18'.
The disc itself should also come with '18' printed on it, filling the whole disc. If you're over the age of 18 you shouldn't be fussed by boxart anyway.
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I didnt say I couldnt tell the difference, I said some people could be affected in a negative way by games like this. If this means you have to 'suffer' (and I find the use of the word suffer to be quite laughable in the context of being denied access to a videogame) then I think thats an okay thing.
In terms of UK prisons, not sure where that came form but try looking at places with real shitty prisons in the third world or Russia. People still commit crimes there and their prisons are awful so no real evidence that would make a difference.
And personally I have no real beef with id cards other than how freely the information is available to people and how easy they are to forge/duplicate.
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if we want and need a healthy civilisation then we need limits
the trend in horror movies and now games to push and push the limits is disturbing
mind pollution everywhere. But we need to take responsicbility also and err be excellent to one another!
I'm voting as always with mi wallet and Hope all games like this tank
what do we really need more visciousness what are we humans or wolves
I thing big store and retailers should make a stand too and parents need to grow up too amean look around there too much immaturity out there man.
but I also suspect that a good multivitamin woud help calm peops down!
some stuff err snuff needs banning but genrally we need better games in which we learn sumat more then kill kill kill
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"Not that kids will play these games and become foaming castrationists, but that they'll view disembowelling a stranger and hanging him with his own guts as just another task to be performed to get to the next level."
But the question there is then: Why are these kids playing this game in the first place? These games are not made for kids and are rated as not for kids, so measuring them on a "suitable kids level" measurement makes a rating system useless. Your bottom line there is that there shouldn't be any rating system at all and all games should be suitable for every age, as "they will play it anyway". I definately don't want to defend MH2, but hey, if a kid watches a movie or plays a game that was not made for it, then the cheapest scapegoat is the producer.... If you go down that lane on the end of it stands an american system, where you can blame McDonalds for your own stupidity of dumping hot beverages onto your lab, as they made it so hot. But this is not a world i want to live in. I expect the next person to have the reasonability to not drop hot beverages onto their lap. And that they are neighter selling nor buying games like that for kids. And if this reasonability isn't existent, then there should be a law for it. But please, don't prohibit media because of our believe they would be harmful for people they aren't intended for in the first place..