LittleBigPlanet boss "annoyed" by controls News

/umbrella up

I thought they were fine, any problems I've had I've fixed using better level design. Not that I'm any good.

this will turn ugly

My suggestion (Can I write this Mr Thought Police?):

Keep the automatic layer switching only when you walk from thin to thick layers.

Never switch automatically when jumping, unless the user pushes a direction while he is jumping/falling.



Also:

Make it a toggle, Automatic layer switch On/Off.

I don't have a problem with the switching on the actual dev levels... in fact people should really use them as a source of inspiration of level structure. On a few people's games I've played I've had myself randomly jumping into the background through lack of foresight (or testing). Whenever I'm doing a bit that needs a deft touch, or is a bit of platforming, I really put some thought into how SB is going interact with the layers.

I remember reading that more dev tools will probably be released via DLC over time, which is nice. More tools = more clever levels, plus it gives people the chance to fully learn the existing toolset without being dumped in with a massive cluster of toys to play with.

Not had this much game creation fun since Amiga days of yore!

another day another lbp article if this isnt the best selling game of the year it will be a miracle

Media Molecule co-founder Mark Healey has admitted that controlling LittleBigPlanet "annoys" him, but insisted the studio can "refine" this after the game releases.

I'd say controls are at the core of a game such as this.
If they're not right then they should fix them before release, not after.

"the studio can "refine" this after the game releases"

as a software developer that kind of attitude really fucking annoys me, I know in business there are timescales/budgets and things sometimes need to go out before it is absolutely perfect, but the control system is fairly key to the gameplay.

"'There's times when it annoys me actually, but we can work on that if we want, and refine it.' [snip] Healey added that the game had been designed so that changes could be made post-release, via a downloadable update."

My most hated industry practice right there.
If you know the game has problems then don't launch it, shit happens but don't you dare knowingly sell me a faulty product.

its hardly a faulty product if your a core gamer you wont have any problems with it, it just isnt that natural for a casual gamer but my wife managed to figure out how to do control it quite quickly and she rarely plays anything thats not singstar or buzz

As some others have said, the controls are not a problem if you DESIGN YOUR LEVELS WELL! So stop all the bitching about post-release updates; I'd rather post-release updates were possible than developers having to ship a faulty game and never fix it, or (worse) you have to buy the game again as a "Director's Cut" to get the fix.

Finally! Someone actually criticizing their own game, and promising to fix it, rather than shill, shill, shill all day. Respect, Mr Healey! Though from what I've heard, the responsiveness is more of an issue than that lack of vocabulary. I recommend you fix that foundation before adding things.

But if you ARE going to do a back flip, I sort of hope it's via use of hands, so you run fast, tap the "grab" button, and the sudden torque sends you into a flip, like this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6dS09GFvZxU


That way you're using your existing verbs to do cool extra stuffs.

And as far as post-release changes go... well, LPB is the sort of game which will really benefit from not being bought early. The choice content will have a chance to rise to the top, and you'll get a better overall experience. Post-release changes go hand in hand with that concept. Just wait for patches and whatnot, and you'll do yourself a favour.

hope they keep in mind that reviews are made on release code, if its improved drastically afterwards the reviews that people read won't reflect this..

So his mother's not a hardcore playa, huh? Iiiinteresting.

"As some others have said, the controls are not a problem if you DESIGN YOUR LEVELS WELL!"

People dont, though. I spent ten minutes trying to jump onto a car the other day, only for me to jump off it, onto another block.

I quit out and gave it a bad review.

Buuuuuuuut.....this is probably the worst aspect of the game, especially since the analogue is a little wooly.

So stop all the bitching about post-release updates; I'd rather post-release updates were possible than developers having to ship a faulty game and never fix it, or (worse) you have to buy the game again as a "Director's Cut" to get the fix.

i'd rather they got the game right in the first place - y'know, like people used to do.

@Bitesize

Yeah, cause all games were bugfree and great in the past!

htf can you mess up controls in a 2d platformer?

@mingster

Ddi you not read the article? Its not strictly 2d which is where the problem comes from.

menage: well done, point completely missed.

@rumrum4444

SONY IS FINISHED !!!

.

!!!

lol @ rumrum's posting history

I can only respect statements such as this. However, it is funny to compare populace reaction to this guys admiting some problems (and promissing post release updates) and Molyneaux's.

There's nothing actually wrong with the controls. It's just, as others have said, that they've tried to make it cater for everybody, so the game often interprets what layer you intend to be moving to and shifts you in that direction on the z axis. Given that the majority of games have not historically done this sort of thing, it's a change that kinda jars with the more experienced gamer, but one that might well be welcomed by the "casual" gamer.

I kinda agree with one of the other posters, have the auto-layer control switchable in the settings such that you can turn it on if you want (like pilot assist in Wipeout HD). Do that and the basic controls would be flawless, particularly for the experienced gamer.

That aside, the controls generally don't get in the way very often anyway, no more so that the occasional camera glitch annoys in even the most polished 3rd person games, or whatever. It's not down to lack of polish, or buggy code. It is, at worst, just too much hand holding - it's TCS and ABS for platformers - something that's best left off if you're experienced. If they add that as an option - perfect.

This makes happy. I'm glad that MM has acknowledged the problem and that it irritates as much as it can others. Even better, they're looking in to how to rectify it. Props to you sir.

Listen to Mr disc's wonderful idea too. :)

"But if you ARE going to do a back flip, I sort of hope it's via use of hands, so you run fast, tap the "grab" button, and the sudden torque sends you into a flip, like this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6dS09GFvZxU"

Heh. Awesome. :D

teh doomed

@arbiter

yes I agree with you, I guess I had the wrong choice of words in my comment, but I don't agree with releasing something that you yourself are not happy with. maybe it's just the way I work, nature of being a developer I guess, but I hate releasing work that I don't feel is at the right level for release. then again from a business angle you've got to release it and make money at some point.

good saying btw, I'll remember that one!

I think he should be careful ... changing the controls will break user created levels, so you can't do it too often.

I agree that it's not always ideal, but as mentioned, you can design your levels easily so that it is never a problem. Right now the biggest problem for me has been not being able to jump down to a layer when that layer is too low inbetween the other two. But that's something you can remedy with design.

I personally think the controls work pretty well right now, though if anything I would probably add climbing and wall jumping.

Wait, I think I have a solution ... you could make some general level options which allow the user to use or disable certain control aspects. Toggles switching certain abilities on or off. It would be fun to disable jumping for instance for some levels, and enable climbing or a double jump in others. Then you can also add dying from falling down to far, etc. This would actually be a plus rather than a minus, as it is fun to be able to design a level that forces you to use certain features.

Ohwell, time you chuck my PS3 in the bin, Motorstorm Pacific Ridge looks ***t too!

It just takes a little bit to get used to moving to the background and foreground. Just press X and either up or down to get to where you want him to.
They'd want to sort out the sack persons ability to move his hand through his head. Doesn't really look good when that happens.
Same with some clothes too.

There's times when it annoys me actually, but we can work on that if we want, and refine it. But if it sells a shitload and we make loads of cash we'll probably just say fuckit and go on holiday

"specifically moving the character between planes in the "2.5D" perspective."

I have the BETA and I agree with the comment!

BETA-user as well, and whilst I noticed some difficulty in going from one to the other, I hardly felt it was annoying. Maybe that kind of thing that frustrates if you end up dying as a result of it?
Either way, I haven't had this much fun with a 2D title since Loco Roco on the PSP. It's frickin' brilliant!

Hmmm... not played it yet (no betas downunder!) but it would seem a simple L3 or R3 stickclick to switch layers would work fine.

/longs for the days that developers finished their fucking game before selling it

@ Arbiter:

I'll think you'll find it was George Lucas that said:

"A movie is never finished, only abandoned."

I can't say that I've ever heard of that being applied to the games industry though.

To switch layers (from those who have not played), you press up or down. It works fine. Also the game will try and jump up onto background ledges and stuff, switching layers automatically. One one of the dev levels you have a hill in the foreground, you run up it, jump and it auto takes you the the hill in the mid distance and then once again in background.

Where this falls apart is when people have done poor level design. I've seen levels which has a background which is basically made of one huge background chunk of material on the background pane with random shapes used to cut "windows" in them for variety. Ok, you can tell its been knocked up quickly big style, but the effect of this is if you're busy trying to navigate a platform section that the user has knocked up, you can find yourself jumping into the background by accident.

Of course, on the pre-made levels this hasn't been an issue whatsoever. Well design so layer swapping occurs when it naturally should do. What is needed is for people to think and take experience from the main levels.

Check something like Skate To Victory. You go into the castle and there are some tense platform sections, if you notice its all done in one planes width so there are no opportunities for messups.

Also people have to remember the three planes when doing something like making a staircase. I played an assualt course which was mainly spent falling off the stairs into the background. The same applies for obstacles.

Everything I make will be amazing naturally.

I'd much rather they worked on the controls in the create part of the game. A more free flowing camera that doesn't necessarily follow the player would be good, and the whole "glueing stuff together" business annoys the cr@p out of me. Perhaps they should go back to actually using small dots of glue instead of this "press x longer to glue", where you end up glueing everything together including the background.

Think you'll find the saying is 'art is never finished, only abandoned'. Lucas may have appropriated it, but it's an ages-old phrase.

And anyone who thinks that hitting a final deadline on-time and bug-free is a simple practice and should happen every time has obviously never, ever worked in games development.

So let me get this right;
The co-founder of Media Molecule had said that controlling LittleBigPlanet "annoys" him and yet a whole load of people jump out to defend the game saying "build your levels right"...
Fanboys at their best *sigh*

Did this guy just play the game for the first time yesterday?

@ Rirekon

This is one game you're simply not allowed to criticize...even if you're one of the creators of it. :p

People forget (or ignore) what he said immediately after was:

But on the whole, we got to a good place with it I think, because we wanted to cater for my mother and someone that's a hardcore player, so it was hard to get the balance there."

In other words the controls have to cater to a large range of gamers. Personally I think they could do with some tweaking (having actually played it myself unlike many critics) but to make out it is some game destroying defect is approaching hysterical.

@Rirekon

If you want to paraphrase, then yeah. Otherwise, if you look to the detail, I personally said nothing about his experience playing, I said "yeah, I've seen issues with the controls, especially in X scenario, hugely remedied by good level design as seen in the official levels". But hey, if you want to go off on one, you do whatever you feel you have to....

@ Widge;
Did I mention you specifically? No, I don't think I did ;-)

2D games are last gen, please people don't buy this shit. If it sell's well we are gonna see a whole load of shit 2D games again, don't let it happen.

@Arbiter
"@BBIAJ

Allegedly it was Leonardo Da Vinci who coined the phrase originally, although plenty of other people have used it subsequently!

Regardless of its origins, It's absolutely true though."

Damn you! I wanted to say it and (try to) sound smart. ;(

It's undoubtedly true.

I personally have no real problem with problems being fixed after release I (and I expect most of those on this site) have the net at home and no problems with using it. Then again I'm a software engineer and know all about how hard software is to get right first time (software is hard, who said that? Never mind).

As for this issue; this is not a bug it's just something the boss (Healey not Springsteen) isn't entirely happy about (for all we know the others on the team love it). If they do tweak the controls after launch I'm sure they'll make the new controls available as an option (classic controls or new) rather than force the user to use the new one. It's additional post release support no-one slates Valve for releasing map packs for TF2 so why should they do it for this?

And whoever said that it'd break existing levels, why would it? Existing games often offer multiple control schemes and switching between them doesn't break anything.

@Negotiator

"2D games are last gen, please people don't buy this shit. If it sell's well we are gonna see a whole load of shit 2D games again, don't let it happen."

Err... which 2D games are you ranting about?

Having just seen some remarkable comments and after checking some of your posting history Negotiator, I cansafely say you are a knob. Welcome to my ignore list.

Negotiator - you, sir, are a cretin. Now bugger off and play Flashback for a few hours, then come back and see if you still want to reiterate your ill-conceived comment.