L4D community rallies against sequel Comments by Robert Purchese

Here's what the glorious, blessed Team Fortress 2 community has received for free from Valve since release in October 2007:

Gold Rush update (April 2008): 1 new map, 3 upgrades for doctor, 1 new gametype.

Pyro update (June 2008): 2 new maps picked from the community (0 Valve maps), 3 pyro upgrades, no new gametypes.

Heavy update (August 2008): 3 new Valve maps, 3 upgrades for heavy, 1 new gametype.

Scout update (February 2009): 3 new maps, 3 scout upgrades, 0 new gametypes.

Spy and Sniper update (May 2009): 3 new maps, 6 upgrades, 1 new gametype.


Now, I'll be charitable and include the community-made maps in the following comparison: that's 12 maps in 18+ months. I'll be even more charitable and say a TF2 arena map is even half the size, or half as complex, as a full-blooded Left 4 Dead chapter (hint: it isn't). If the Left 4 Dead team worked at the same rate as the TF2 team at churning out free content for right-minded PC zealots everywhere, you would get an entire campaign's worth of content inside 18 months. Remember I'm being charitable here, and also ignoring the fact that Left 4 Dead maps require additional content TF2 maps don't, like the writing and recording of new survivor dialogue). That's also presuming they released the chapters one at a time, so you didn't have to wait that long to get some new levels. So... 18 months, for one new campaign.

Nah, I think I'll pay for five campaigns arriving inside a year, thanks.

In a world where most console games net you about 10 hours of entertainment, they complain about a game that's good for hours of hours, for a such a relatively small amount of cash. Valve, don't listen to them, just give us more. But don't forget Half-Life while you're at it. :-)

/loves Shakes statistics.
/needs more graphs and tables though...

Can't wait, going whip £40 out my wallet on release date, and hope their quick enough to release a 3rd one when I'll happily pay up again. I want more of the same quality of gaming that I've been enjoying the last half a year, and I am more than happy to pay for it again. Hoefully there will be a cheat to turn the zombies in the game into cheap ass pc gamers crying for more features and holding petition forms. So I can blast their face off with a shotgun, and dry hump them while swinging a chainsaw about at the same time.

chasejamie - It was £28.99 delivered (IIRC) from shopto pretty much on release.....im hoping theyve got the same deal on for L4D2.

I actually can't believe people are complaining about a sequel to one of the best games of 2008.....I don't give a flying fuck if they think it's not a 'true sequel'. 5 new campaigns, new characters, new weapons, an improved AI director, a new unannounced multiplayer mode, new boss infected......what the hell is there to complain about? Grow up, buy the game, AND ENJOY IT. There's now 16,000 people in that group on steam, i bet you 15,999 of those people will buy the game, leaving one man thinking he's better than everyone else while everyone else is having fun.

I have one little question.

Why isn't Valve working on fucking HL2 EPISODE 3 and maybe the new PORTAL???

I like L4D, it's fun, but it's not the so-called "EPISODC" half-life experience, now is it?

GET TO WORK ON THE REAL STUFF VALVE!

It wasn't time for a new L4D. It reeks of makin' a buck! Seriously.

@ penhalion

Just noticed this little tidbit - "why trade range for a different zombie death animation?"

Zombie-games really aren't your thing, are they? Dispatching zombies via a multitude of different, grisly methods is the whole reason d'etre of the genre! Imagine how dull and lifeless Dead Rising would have been if Capcom had said "We already have one melee weapon with the baseball bat. Do we really need any more?"

Where is my Half Life Episode 3?

@zoidberg

I have one little question.

Why isn't Valve working on fucking HL2 EPISODE 3 and maybe the new PORTAL???

I like L4D, it's fun, but it's not the so-called "EPISODC" half-life experience, now is it?

GET TO WORK ON THE REAL STUFF VALVE!

It wasn't time for a new L4D. It reeks of makin' a buck! Seriously.


How do you know they aren't working on HL2 EP3?? they will be!! they have more teams than the HL team ffs, the people who made L4D were brought into Valve as the game was a mod at first. They have people working on TF2 and different people on L4D, Portal again wasn't Valve it as another mod team they brought into Valve.

Why are people so dumb ?

I for one think this a fair price to pay for new maps and players and infected i mean it will be a year apart how many games have the same thing only updated each year? CoD for one as WOW was last year and MW2 is really another CoD game, but people aren't moaning?? come on get a grip.

It is absolutely batshit insane to expect the amount of content in Left 4 Dead 2 to be made available for free. Either your understanding of business and costing is entirely fucking faulty, or you simply don't grasp the amount of time, work, and money that Valve have to invest to bring out something of this size. So I'm not even going to argue with anyone who holds that thought anymore.

What I do appreciate is a more general sense of betrayal, because every one of these complainers copy-pastes that same Gabe interview snippet where he talks about supporting L4D post-launch in the same way they have TF2, and it appears now that simply isn't going to happen. Leaving aside for just a minute that to date their support for L4D has been more timely and more thorough than their support for TF2 was in the same post-launch window (ahem)... Valve do genuinely seem to have changed direction on this.

But then I guess it's sort of like when they kept pushing back the release date for Half-Life. And Half-Life 2. And Episode 1. And Episode 2. And the way they promised new Portal levels (forgot that one, didn't ya!). And I guess it took them nine years to get Team Fortress 2 out (original announce year was 1998). Or how about when they promised a Black Box alongside Orange Box, so people wouldn't have to rebuy games they already had... no wait, they changed their minds there too (and oh boy, the complaints that followed...). Not even gonna touch all the times they 'failed' the CS community.

I mean, I guess you could argue that Left 4 Dead 2 represents an unprecedented change in plans for Valve, that their rebooting L4D inside a year amounts to a broken promise that is entirely out of character...

...but you've have to be pretty fuckin' dumb.

The only thing that's unprecedented here is Valve getting a quality sequel to a quality title out in a timely fashion. That's some real end of the world shit right there! Petition it!

I have pre-ordered this so hard.

People are mental.

I mean, truly truly bat-shit bananas. This whole thing makes me vehemently shake my head from side-to-side .

By the way, is there a Left 4 Dead 2 support group? There should be one...

Right On!

HL2: Episode 3 should be free too. In fact Half-Life 2 should've been free, after all they were just trying to make a quick buck on the back of HL1....

My cash is ready, I am happy to buy it.

I just hope they have some integration worked out between the two titles so they don't divide the L4D audience into two small groups rather than one large community.

I just hope they have some integration worked out between the two titles so they don't divide the L4D audience into two small groups rather than one large community.

This is a genuine concern for me too.

I purchased L4D on day one and have poured hundreds of hours into it since (at the expense of sleep!). I even rent a dedicated server so myself and friends can have a decent game without some idiot ruining it.

As for L4D2, there's a huge amount of content being included and in no way can Valve justify giving it away for free! I'll certainly be in the queue to purchase and pre-load as soon as it becomes available.

And to all those monkey spanking freeloaders who complain because it takes them months to talk their mummy into buying a game for them - get a life and go play with an Action Man instead!

I dont agree with boycott the sequel but there is nothing embarasssing with what they are doing. Instead i actually find you fucktards for critising that way ppl that are asking for a reply to things that werent delivered. And no PC gamers arent the worst, you are incapable to understand since apparently you learned what FPS means after the Halo period, since thats when FPS genre was boosted on consoles and its a fact ( I love Halo, dont getme wrong on that one ).

So wanting to be heard for not getting what you were told or paid for is not wrong, wrong is being a sheep like you are asking them to.. Yeah get the L4D 2 and nothing wrong with it comming out, but if they thought ( keyword since apparently L4D1 isnt left back ) that they wouldnt get updates on what they bought knowing they were going to, then yeah they have every right to complain about it. Instead of you ruinning the efforts of ppl that react to things they consider bullshit you should help out on things like those. Don't think you were all raised to be letting bullshit go along unnoticed cause i dont. Geta life and learn how to react to things like they do. Apparently PC gamers have a life and know how to do so when you dont. Nuf said :) :p

Yeah!! Lets burn those bastards at Valve for not delivering on what was promised and abandoning L4D
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-valve-not-closing-the-book-on-l4d

Valve have stated in several internet interviews WHY they are making this into a sequel. What turned out to be some ideas for DLC at the start then escalated with several more, big ideas, where it came to the point where the content they were discussing was good enough to become a full sequel. Now if valve believe all this extra content is good enough for a sequel (people who do this for a fucking living) then who am i to question them? I understand why people may get a little upset, but if you look at the content valve are delivering surely you can understand WHY it is being sold as a standalone game? I've looked at the steam forums, and to me although there are some valid points, the majority of those people are just butthurt because valve haven't announced a new half life game, and the fact that they have to pay for another game. So when you say pc gamers have a life, i disagree, but that's just my opinion.

@ davisorle - basically, all that comes down to is you want something for nothing.

@ davisorle

I started FPSing on Wolfenstein 3D, before graduating to Doom, then Duke Nukem, then Quake (and Wolfenstein 3D and AVP on Jaguar), SIN, Unreal, Shogo: Mobile Armor Division, Project IGI, Kingpin: Life of Crime, Heretic, Quake II, Hexen, Unreal Tournament, Quake III: Arena, Half-Life, Counterstrike, Natural Selection and that's only the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

THEN I bought Halo on console and haven't really looked back to the PC since. Do I qualify as being able to comment on these stupid idiots, then? Seeing as I've probably played more FPS than the bottom 10% of that group combined.

They're a bunch of muppets through and through - the latent Fascist in me wishes that Valve would say "Fine. You won't ever get anything from us at all then, seeing as you'll just whine that it can't shine your shoes while feeding the dog!"

15,000 idiots if you ask me... Let's hope Valve keeps doing what they're doing. Never seen a petition against CoD or any sports game that comes out without major differences every year. Oh well... sheep mentality without a doubt.

@Davisorle

Now, you see, what I'm criticising is the silly reaction to something that amounts to little more than a title announcement.

There are about six gameplay videos floating around and some other sparse details, like incendiary bullets, hazmat zombies, melee weapons, and AI controlled level layouts. That's it. We just don't know if it'll be integrated with the first game, we don't know if it'll be part of a package, we don't know how fundamentally different or not it may be to the first game. We've been teased with a few details, and that's it. How about we wait for a bit more information, maybe a bit closer to the release date, and then everyone can have a rational stance on it?

To get all worked up over something not clearly defined, when you have absolutely no other details, is more than ridiculous, it's the height of idiocy.

Especially since Valve have clearly said that L4D will continue to be expanded upon. The only issue I can see here is that the community may be divided. If L4D2 takes the original concept, runs with it, and improves upon it, I don't see why that is that much of a deal.

Well, I'm glad to see most other people view this as a load of old cockbluster.

Valve are making a sequel to a much-loved game that has more content than the original, and they've been uncharacteristically quick about it. To be frank: where's the damn problem? Also, comparisons between EA and Valve seem pretty harsh considering EA's historical dedication to flogging dead horses.

L4D has received well over 100 hours of play from me, and I already know the sequel will be the same. For 40 quid, that's a bargain.

Valve gamers are idiots - news at eleven.

Can understand them though.

So wanting to be heard for not getting what you were told or paid for is not wrong, wrong is being a sheep like you are asking them to.. Yeah get the L4D 2 and nothing wrong with it comming out, but if they thought ( keyword since apparently L4D1 isnt left back ) that they wouldnt get updates on what they bought knowing they were going to, then yeah they have every right to complain about it.

1. When you pay for L4D you are paying for the game as advertised, nothing more. You are effectively buying a license to install and play that game on your PC. If you buy it thinking that you are buying shares in it, that you own it, or have any investment or control in its development and evolution post-launch, you are foolish. This is one of the worst elements of PC zealotry, and it's the cause of complaints about Diablo II being "too bright" or, as someone else mentioned, your rogue in WoW getting nerfed. You do not own the game, and you do not have a say in what the developers choose to do with it. You are not buying futures here, you are buying an advertised product, albeit one that is subject to change. If you consider yourself so much more enlightened than your console 'kiddy' counterparts, why is it you seemingly fail to understand your end user license agreement?

2. Yes, Gabe Newell made a (fairly throwaway) remark that they would support L4D as they have TF2. Fans of L4D on PC have since interpreted that remark as a categorical promise. Never mind that to date Valve have kept that 'promise' (releasing free content for L4D faster than they did for TF2), it is ridiculous to even consider this one interview snippet as some sort of blood oath sworn between developer and consumer. If you purchased the game solely on the basis that Gabe once said in an interview that they are planning to release content and updates for it (and remember, they have released content and updates for it, and have since said they may not be finished doing so), then I would argue the basis for that purchase is so tenuous that your ~$50 should be written off as a needlessly risky investment.

3. Yes, they have ever right to complain about what they perceive to be a broken promise, no matter how silly such complaints might be; similarly, I have every right to make fun of them for doing so.


P.S. My first FPS games were Wolfenstein 3D and Ultima Underworld, and for all of the 90s I was a devout owner of a gaming PC. You do not get to lecture me about first person games... ever.

I dunno, i have been invited to the group by some twat whos being blocked and there are around 16,000 members now. Other groups i have been invited into from L4D players have over 500,000. This group is a tiny minority for PC gamers and most likely includes people who didnt like L4D at all and rabid fans who want the next slice of HL2.

Yes they did break some promises as it was released light on content with valve saying we wiill keep it updated for a while. But its such a good game and with so much replayability its not much paying £30 for an improved and larger game.

Yosserian your comparision to TF2 saying they would have added only 1 new campaign in 18 months is a bit silly as apart from maps they have introduced new weapons with completly new characteristics and worked out all the balancing issues that comes with it. A set of L4D maps where the director does the work for you would be simple in comparison.

@Yoss,

Dammit, I very much want to take up the obvious gauntlet and lecture you about FPS's, but your argument is correct and to do so would be churlish.

Yosserian your comparision to TF2 saying they would have added only 1 new campaign in 18 months is a bit silly as apart from maps they have introduced new weapons with completly new characteristics and worked out all the balancing issues that comes with it. A set of L4D maps where the director does the work for you would be simple in comparison.

The director isn't magic, chum. You have to tell him where he can spawn zombies, and how, and make sure that those zombies have a route to every place the survivors can get. You have to devise ways for the special infected to get around the map. You have to structure and balance crescendo events, weapon and health spawns, tank and witch spawns, all the while worrying about traditionally singleplayer concerns like pacing and difficulty curves. Make no mistake: L4D levels are far larger and far more complicated than the average TF2 arena map. They require much, much more work, especially on the balancing side. I was being really, really charitable with the comparison.

I didn't bother going into TF2's class and weapon updates, because surely everyone here knows that L4D2 contains more than twenty new pieces of weaponry and equipment, as well as three new special infected, new director AI, deformable zombies, and plenty more I won't take the time to list. I was talking solely about the complexity of L4D levels and making a comparison with the TF2 release schedule because I didn't think the rest of it needed to be spelled out. Guess I was wrong.

Gearskin:How long was TF2 delayed? HL2? The original HL?

YEARS!

And now Valve are able to develope, test and release a sequel within 12 months? Shows how much effort is really going in, no?

Not a lot!

TF2, HL2 and 1 were Valve developed games.

Turtle Rock Studios is behind Left 4 Dead 1 and 2.

The best thing about this comments thread is it reminded me of Kingpin, and my friend calling me in excitedly from the other room to look at a turd modelled in full 3D floating in a toilet bowl.

My God, davisorle, you're so full of it. Some of the people you're aiming that bullshit at include people that have been playing FPS since the olden days (includes me), for fuck sake. Grow up.

I for one welcome L4D2, I have played the first (on both platforms) for an obscene amount of hours.

Kingpin was great. It's been ten years since it's release - I just don't think it's safe for Grey Matter to announce a sequel yet.

/readies petition

The fact that a campaign requires 4 complete maps as opposed to one demands a big commitment from modders. Currently I only know of one potential high quality full custom campaign (made with the original hl2 hammer editor). Unfortunately there's been no updates recently, maybe that guy is busy wrestling with the new nav map creation function (that spawns mobs. Properly) that came with the sdk. The fact that the sdk came so late didnt help.

I fear that left4dead 1 may see very little custom content if at all. Shame really. I had a play around with the left4dead sdk, making stuff and getting it running in game is incredibly easy and intuitive. There's alot of potential in there.

You can just turn the director on and yes it does do the leg work for you. People proved that in the first week when they stuck them in other source levels and it worked. Yes I know there are alot of balancing and placement issues that need to be put in place but its not that difficult and the same goes for TF2 levels. I think your size comparison is wrong aswell, most of the levels in tf2 are made of 3 sections and some are completly new game modes.
Dont get me wrong i am not complaining that L4D2 should be released as free content, i am just saying that comparing all the content released for free on TF2 to one campaign of L4D is so far off the mark its untrue.

My only other gripe is they didnt get the SDK out before announcing L4D2. I know the content will be brought across but serious map makers are going to wait for all the new content first.

A little googling turned up Kingpin on this list of 'pooey games' (wtf?):

http://anna-ghislaine.blogspot.com/2007/...

Seems I am not the only one who remembers it for this reason.

A friend of mine just made an interesting comment:

"Could this be anything to do with pressure from M$ not wanting Valve to release more free updates on the 360?"

Is there a petition boycotting the petitioners? I'd consider joining that.

Someone start one.

Can someone tell me why Microsoft would intervene? I genuinely don't understand why they would. I'm probably being very slow. This is nothing new.

Wow. So many haters towards PC gamers here, I could almost mistake it for a bunch of Nazis.
The "best" part about this is though that the reason why they make a number 2 in the series is because of the console crowd, not the PC crowd. They are easier to sell to.

Hmm, it'd be rather nice if you could export the L4D content for use in L4D2, in the same way that you can currently do with Rock Band. Quite unlikely though.

You can just turn the director on and yes it does do the leg work for you. People proved that in the first week when they stuck them in other source levels and it worked. Yes I know there are alot of balancing and placement issues that need to be put in place but its not that difficult and the same goes for TF2 levels. I think your size comparison is wrong aswell, most of the levels in tf2 are made of 3 sections and some are completly new game modes.

It's not solely an issue of size, it's an issue of complexity. A TF2 level by design is simpler, flatter, more cartoon-y, with less extraneous detail than the average building in L4D. There's simply far fewer brushes in a TF2 level than in a L4D one.

And yes, I have seen the videos of the Director populating other Source levels and spawning hordes, but it's a far, far cry from levels which are actually designed and built for that purpose, which work as advertised, and which are balanced and paced properly. It's the difference between people getting the portal gun to work in HL2 levels, and the properly finished and polished Portal levels. L4D gameplay requires that when not in a safe room you can always be reached by the horde (and even today there are blind spots in some of the existing L4D maps, including the exploits people found for survival). Fine-tuning that, making sure the specials always have access to you, have places they can spawn freely, and can move around the levels with ladders, secret rooms etc., and generally pacing and balancing the environments, makes it a far trickier business. L4D levels are basically singleplayer levels, with a lot of the same concerns, as opposed to multiplayer arenas. And when you factor in story elements and everything else (mainly writing, acting, and recording dialogue -- all of which costs, and has to be paid for -- but also littering the levels with the sort of detail we saw in L4D with grafitti on safe-room walls etc.)... it's a longer and more complex process.

Also, re: game modes being added in TF2, L4D2 will also have Survival levels (presumably for each of its crescendo events, same as L4D1), and another game mode yet to be announced.

The Mod community for L4D has already produced more content than Valve themselves.

We've all seen the gameplay vids of this sequel... same engine, same gameplay, subtle alterations that you won't even notice.

And lets not forget that L4D was a full priced game, took YEARS to make... and shipped with about 4 hours of content, all told.

That's sad.

Valve puts too much faith in their community to do the work. L4D2 is arguably the second half of the original game we never got.

Hmm, it'd be rather nice if you could export the L4D content for use in L4D2, in the same way that you can currently do with Rock Band. Quite unlikely though.

They already announced that anything created using the SDK will work happily in L4D2, although obviously people won't be able to use all the Director 2.0 stuff like dynamic weather yet.

and shipped with about 4 hours of content, all told.

I've played those '4 hours' for maybe ~200 hours, and had fun 90% of the time. I still play those '4 hours', over and over, with friends, enjoying myself. Thank God they didn't put more 'content' in there, or I don't know how I'd find the time to sleep or eat.

the reason why they make a number 2 in the series is because of the console crowd, not the PC crowd. They are easier to sell to.

This is the simple truth. If L4D was just a PC game there's no way a sequel would even be considered yet.

The argument that EA and Activision do yearly updates is completely missing the point. Valve is not EA, and while some of the criticism is clearly over the top, I believe this is the main reason why people are disappointed with Valve.

PC gamers just don't want Valve to "do an Epic" and become another console-centric developer churning out sequels for the Christmas market, and are hoping L4D isn't a sign of things to come.

Most console gamers don't realise just how special Valve are to the PC community, and therefore don't realise why we hold Valve to a higher standard than other developers.

Still doesn't disguise the fact that it's not packing much content at all. Regardless of how much fun you personally find it.

Most console gamers don't realise just how special Valve are to the PC community, and therefore don't realise why we hold Valve to a higher standard than other developers.


Most PC gamers don't realise that Valve are a business and are here to make money to pay their staff so they can pay their mortgages etc and get new money to make new games and content for older games at the end of the day there in this business to make money if they did it for the love of the games only you wouldn't see any extra content at all.

And more of the same. Assumptions people that want L4D2 are CONSOLE GAMERS who JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND

I'm a PC gamer, so cut that shit out. Valve are special to me, always have been and always will be. I get it. But L4D is special to me and I'm looking forward to L4D2.