L4D community rallies against sequel

By Robert Purchese Published 8 June, 2009

15,000 boycott Valve's "money grab".

Over 15,000 Left 4 Dead fans have joined together on Steam to campaign against and boycott the release of Left 4 Dead 2.

They claim Valve has not fulfilled promises of extra content for L4D, and that the announced innards of L4D2 do "not warrant a standalone, fully-priced sequel".

Their Steam community page (picked up by vg247) requests that Valve "honour" its original commitment to ongoing periodic content for L4D, that the sequel become a free update or that existing L4D owners be given a discount.

Valve speaker Doug Lombardi addressed fan fears about Left 4 Dead 2 on Friday, stating that the company has not "closed the book" on new content and more support for L4D1. He even promised that "there's more content coming for Left 4 Dead in the fairly short term".

"I think the short answer is: trust us a little bit," he said.

Left 4 Dead 2 adds five new campaigns, four new characters, the city of New Orleans, melee weapons, reworked guns, new ammo, new bosses, gauntlet moments, a Wandering Witch, protected Infected, limb loss, a new unannounced game mode and more control for AI directors.

The sequel is due out on 17th November for PC and Xbox 360.

Head over to our E3 hands-on impressions of Left 4 Dead 2 to find out more.

Picture of Robert.

About Robert Purchese

Bertie is Eurogamer's Senior Staff Writer. When he's not hunting down news stories he's often found playing with his kids or gabbling about fantasy games and strange online worlds.

Read more articles from Robert by visiting the Robert Purchese archive page.

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Comments (162) Latest comment 3 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Ninja_Tino #1 3 years ago

    So embarrassing. What is it with these people? PC gamers are the worst.

  • Xerx3s #2 3 years ago

    I missed out on the first but I will probably pick this up.

  • Wastelander #3 3 years ago

    That's 15,000 less fucking idiots to listen to online then.

    L4D2 just became even more appealing \o/

  • GreyScale #4 3 years ago

    Fuck em. They are all going to buy it anyway. Fucking nerds, they really annoy me.

  • tesco #5 3 years ago

    You're right, its embarrassing, little boys and girls having a tantrum because they have to pay for a sequel.
    Get a grip. Get a job. Get some self respect.

  • Buztafen #6 3 years ago

    PC Gamers "We want free stuff!!"

    Valve "Well, weve made this but its actually more content than the first game....so were gonna charge for it"

    PC Gamers "Screw you valve, you never really loved us. Your just trying to rape more money out of us!"

    Valve "More money? You just want the moon on a fucking stick dont you, you jerks....your like the people who take more than one free sample of a product and complain when its shit!"

    PC Gamers ".....your point is?"

  • daz_john_smith #7 3 years ago

    Wow! This seems excessively harsh, I mean Valve have been incredibly good to their fans in the past and this is how the fans are repaying them. Even if L4D2 was a cheap cash-in, which it most likely won't t be, I think Valve have have done more than enough over the years to let it slide anyway.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 09:20

  • Dizzy #8 3 years ago

    "which it most likely won't t be, I think Valve have have done more than enough over the years to let it slide anyway"

    QFT

    Once again the Internet is full off whining emo gamers. Why am I not surprised?
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 09:22

  • andywilkie35 #9 3 years ago

    I feel sorry for Valve - they've got one of the best track records in the business and usually take their time to release their products, making sure they're top quality. They've come up with a sequel to a great game yet 15,000 people are having a go, yet Activision and EA do this every year without fail on the majority of their IPs and noone bats an eyelid!

  • Colin8703 #10 3 years ago

    What's strange is that the price will still £15 to £20 cheaper than the Xbox version on release.

    I play on 360 and don't feel as though I'm being ripped off. I'm looking forward to the sequel and am excited rather than pissed off.

    These wingers really need to get a life. Valve owe them nothing but do owe their own families a living.



  • Madafunkola #11 3 years ago

    Any internet based protest should be ignored. Clicking a button doesn't really count as making a stand.
    Just look at facebook to see how many thousands of people "join" a "protest" about new flavours of crisps etc...

  • daz_john_smith #12 3 years ago

    @Dizzy

    "QFT" ???

    The differences between LFD1 and LFD2 seem no less significant than the differences between CoD4: MW and MW2 but no-ones complaining about that sequel.

    Unfortunately, Valve have gone above and beyond with free content for their fanbase and a portion of that fanbase has gotten used to it and are now just throwing their toys out of the pram. I had to pinch myself everytime we booted up Counterstrike at Uni, I couldn't believe we were technically playing it for free.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 09:50

  • GreyScale #13 3 years ago

    Get a grip. Get a job. Get some self respect.

    The sad thing is they probably already mostly have well paid jobs, their Comic book guy-style nerdrage and moral indignation just overrides any and all rational sentiments including 'don't be such a frigging geek'. Probably the same people that moan and whinge on the Blizzard forums every time there is a WoW patch and threaten to boycott because their rogue has been nerfed by 0.000001%, only to carry on playing 18 hours a day as usual.

    If only these people put their energies into protesting against things that really mattered like human rights abuses or fighting racism or something instead of whining and crying on the internet about a poxy thirty quid video game, maybe this world would be a different looking place.

    Utter, utter arseholes.

  • Toothball #14 3 years ago

    @Colin8703:

    That's not unique to Left 4 Dead. Nearly every Xbox and PS3 game launches for more than they do on PC. Licensing costs for console releases last I checked made the difference.

    As for Left 4 Dead 2, I can't say I mind paying for a full game's worth of content if that's what I'm getting. I'd have no complaints if it were free, but I'm quite happy to pay for my entertainment, especially when they do a really good job with it.

  • ChthonicEcho #15 3 years ago

    I do find some of the points the boycott initiators make flawed, but the comment section here is surprisingly brewing with even more ignorance. That's odd, Eurogamer's community is usually far more sophisticated than that.

    Valve "Well, weve made this but its actually more content than the first game....so were gonna charge for it"

    They've started working on Left 4 Dead 2 one month after Left 4 Dead 1. They had the chance to split up the content and distribute it as additional content.

    Even if L4D2 was a cheap cash-in, which it most likely won't t be, I think Valve have have done more than enough over the years to let it slide anyway.

    So, your argument is, while EA is being mocked and belittled for cashing in on various franchises, when a respectable company does it, it's fine? That's rather illogical.

    While the Internet is split into two camps, both sharing a large number of morons, I am actually curious to see how it will all turn out; what will Left 4 Dead 2 will become, and how successful will it be, regardless of this boycott.

  • kinky_mong #16 3 years ago

    Truly fucking pathetic.

  • the_dudefather #17 3 years ago

    To be fair, Valve did say when it came out that they would add content for L4Din the form of new chapters, characters and enemies (which could still come out at some point I guess, but the sequel puts a damper on that it seems)

    They forgot to say that it would be a sequel rather than TF2 style content though (speaking of which, I will love Valve forever for their TF2 support)
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 09:54

  • megastar #18 3 years ago

    wow! what a bunch of cocks!!

    Shock horror you have to pay for new games so that they can pay the people that make the games so that they make more games.

    games!

  • viper_h #19 3 years ago

    Those steam forums are full of almost as much shit as the GameFAQs forums now.

    I've tried in the past bringing up the arguement of the EA IPs or CoD4/5 but no-one there listens. They're probably the same mentally retarded fuckbags who charge head on into a Tank, set themselves on fire with a molotov then get punted off the building.

    Screw em. I'm gonna pay for L4D2 and enjoy it. Valve deserve it.

  • DDevil #20 3 years ago

    75% of them probably pirated it to begin with anyway.

  • Weezer #21 3 years ago

    Whiny fucking PC owners. "We want to pirate your games and play them for nothing and then moan when we don't get extra free content on top of that." Lives: get some.

    Valve should launch a new game just on console and see what their mewling girlie response is then.

    It's like fucking Starcraft 2: "Ew, a new lighting system We don't like change. Bwah!" Cunts.

  • daz_john_smith #22 3 years ago

    @ChthonicEcho
    My point was that other Devs/Publishers churn out identikit sequels and yearly franchises like there's no tomoroow and they don't get this strong a reaction. Valve have a good reputation which I don't see them starting to throw away, so wouldn't it be better to wait till L4D2 is released and actually see how much new content it contains before going mental on the internet and boycotting things?

    As I've said in other threads on the forum, I think part of the reason (not the whole reason) for this being a sequel and not free or payed for DLC comes down to the popularity of the Xbox 360 version of L4D. Some console owners still aren't connected to LIVE and aren't as savvy about DLC as PC owners, but primarily providing free DLC through Xbox LIVE is a giant pain in the ass for Valve. Going the retail option to bring the L4D2 content to console players is the easier option. For example where's the free updated ontent for the Xbox version of TF2... nowhere to be seen, I wonder why.
    Edited by 2 at 08/06/09 @ 10:06

  • autogunner #23 3 years ago

    i think the point was that L4D was shipped with the idea that there would be loads of content updates, ala TF2, but instead there is this sequel barely a year after the game shipped.

    the main arguement was that this was 'promised' by gabe newell the messiah himself, but then he also made a lot of other promises like regular HL2 episodes and such.

    theres loads about this on the rps forums...but it still makes me ashamed to call my self a PC gamer when one of the major and most creative development teams is slammed for trying to make great games.

  • TheTingler #24 3 years ago

    Yeah, I know, I guess console owners are used to shelling out for a "sequel" every 12 months.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 10:04

  • Eraysor #25 3 years ago

    I have no problem with buying it, so goodbye annoying players!

    And anyway, if Valve don't think it's good enough to release, they won't release it.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 10:07

  • HMAN #26 3 years ago

    15,000 (who we all know will buy it in the end) against hundreds of thousands of people who are quite happy

  • TheBoyChris #27 3 years ago

    Jesus. They need to get a grip. If you don't want to buy it, DON'T BUY IT. And I'm pretty sure no-one can say that L4D wasn't worth the money unless there's extra content, the game is amazing fun?!

    Gah. Some people.

  • GreyScale #28 3 years ago

    It's like fucking Starcraft 2: "Ew, a new lighting system We don't like change. Bwah!" Cunts.

    OMG. We shall boycott Diablo 3 becuz the gfx aren't as dark and serious as they should be. GG Blizz, money-grabbing fan-forgetting traitors, FOAD!

    /goes and buys D3 on release day after queuing outside shop for a week

  • Slipstream #29 3 years ago

    If anyone from Valve is reading this. Please aknowledge that there are gamers who appreciate you and your work ethics, we recognise the good deads you have done in the past with free DLC, the allowance of user generated interfaces for your exisiting product and your unique effort that goes into your products.
    Do not give those people what they want, please.

  • DFawkes #30 3 years ago

    Screw that, if they called it a Mission Pack I'd have bought it, stick 2 on the end and it makes no difference to me, I want it so badly! I can understand the objections I suppose, but I don't share the concerns.

  • Fleisch #31 3 years ago

    I don't see what the fuss is about, its just more of a shock as its coming from Valve who normally are, if anything, slow on releasing content and sequels.

    The fact is that they have said they're looking into how to make L4D2 a platform and as such if gamers are interested in importing L4D1 content into it.

    In addition, if Valve say its too much stuff to add as DLC I trust them. They said the same to HL1:EP1 and EP2 and guess what.....you'll have to pay for EP3 too!!! (eventually!)This stuff costs money to develop, Valve are a business, they're raison d etre is to make money....and games. If they feel they could market a sequel this early on then fair play.

    I for one will definately be buying it...getting me some FRYING PAN ZOMBIE KILLING ACTION (sorry over excitable there).

  • penhalion #32 3 years ago

    Wow! A lot of sad commenters here today.

    First off. The original L4D has only four scenarios. Valve promised to add new ones and new content such as weapon upgrades and a better story arc etc. etc.

    Instead they took that time to update the game and sell it as a sequel. The problem is that it isn't a sequel in any way shape or form. It's the same gameplay, the same enemies (all be it with three new skins in the form of the hazard suit, the half tank and whatever the last one was!). The new weapons don't feel any different from the old ones. You get the same (with different skins again) sub-machine gun, automatic rifle, sniper and pistols. You now also get a melee weapon too, though you could always use the guns as melee weapons anyway so why trade range for a different zombie death animation?

    The long and short of it is that there is nothing in L4D2 that wasn't requested as a fix or update for L4D1 by the community some of you are bashing. Their ideas have been taken, in some cases wholesale, by Valve and used to try to sell them a full priced update. This coupled with the fact that if Valve had released the SDK. Then 90% of what Valve is offering in L4D2 would have already been added by the community anyway, is seen as a huge middle finger to their loyale fans.

    A few new levels and new enemies is an add on pack, pure and simple. It in no was constitutes a whole new game!

  • Gearskin #33 3 years ago

    penhalion - QFT!

    How long was TF2 delayed? HL2? The original HL?

    YEARS!

    And now Valve are able to develope, test and release a sequel within 12 months? Shows how much effort is really going in, no?

    Not a lot!

  • ChthonicEcho #34 3 years ago

    My point was that other Devs/Publishers churn out identikit sequels and yearly franchises like there's no tomoroow and they don't get this strong a reaction. Valve have a good reputation which I don't see them starting to throw away, so wouldn't it be better to wait till L4D2 is released and actually see how much new content it contains before going mental on the internet and boycotting things?

    They've already harmed their reputation by announcing Left 4 Dead 2. The question is, are they going to redeem themselves by making Left 4 Dead 2 great game, and possibly offering some sort of compromise to Left 4 Dead owners? I know a lot of people here have Life (TM), and Job (TM), and they can throw away money at every game that strikes their fancy. But some people bought the game because they thought it'd have longevity. Primarily because Valve said it would be. It took them only two months to break their promise.

    And why the surprise considering this reaction? EA is a whore, even though they've been trying to change that for the past months, so few react to it brashly because it's common. When a respectable company does it, there are two types of reactions: people finding it okay, because it's a respectable company and they can trust them, and people being completely outraged that the company they trusted in made the wrong turn.

    Another reason why everyone's so worked about it is that every single idea in Left 4 Dead 2 - every single one, I kid you not - is taken from the community. Now, doing fanservice by including one gameplay element or two they've begged for is quite fine and admirable, but to build a game on community's ideas? Also, Left 4 Dead 2 will have multiple pathways, even if they were excluded from Left 4 Dead 1 because they do not make a Left 4 Dead game. Ironic, huh?

  • Yossarian #35 3 years ago

    The team that worked on L4D is independent of the team that works/worked on Half-Life 2 and its episodes, bar a little crossover in e.g. the writers. Strange to see Valve villified for taking too little time to release a project. I suppose they can't win with you geniuses.

    penhalion, I suggest you do some informed reading on the full feature list for L4D2, and consider what sort of work and expense goes into making an 'add on pack' that is bigger and richer than the original game. Otherwise you look like just another gibbering moron.

  • midnight_walker #36 3 years ago

    "The new weapons don't feel any different from the old ones."

    You've played it then? AMAZING! OK, you're the only one allowed to moan. Oh no, wait, you haven't played it at all, you're basing your unfounded whinges on something that NOBODY had played yet, and is not actually going to be released for months. Now I remember.

  • daz_john_smith #37 3 years ago

    I wonder if there'd be this kind of outrage if they waited 5 years and announced the same game but obviously with better graphics.

    penhalion
    "The problem is that it isn't a sequel in any way shape or form. It's the same gameplay, the same enemies (all be it with three new skins in the form of the hazard suit, the half tank and whatever the last one was!). The new weapons don't feel any different from the old ones. You get the same (with different skins again) sub-machine gun, automatic rifle, sniper and pistols. You now also get a melee weapon too, though you could always use the guns as melee weapons anyway so why trade range for a different zombie death animation?

    I thought you were describing CoD there for a moment. What you said can be applied to hundreds of FPS' and their sequels, Halo is another example that fits what you said perfectly.
    Edited by 2 at 08/06/09 @ 10:45

  • Yossarian #38 3 years ago

    Left 4 Dead 2 does not have 'multiple pathways'; it has variable but still singular and linear pathways. Even if it did have multiple pathways, that would not be 'ironic', I'm afraid.

    As for complaining about Valve taking cues from the community... would it better appeal to your principles if Valve ignored the community and purposefully didn't implement good ideas the community has 'begged' for? Is that really your position? Is that what you want to say here? Think it through.

    If you took some time and care over your posts this sort of silliness could be avoided.

  • Tomo #39 3 years ago

    Exactly. Frankly that's bullshit penhalion. I'd like to see the community implement new characters, enemies and weapons. The new maps are going to be designed by professionals. They will most probably be excellent. There is so much wrong with your post it's painful to read.

  • Buztafen #40 3 years ago

    Its fucking £30 guys.....i can spend more than that on a takeaway on sunday....

    Are some of you really that cheap?

  • GreyScale #41 3 years ago

    I would absolutely LOVE IT if Valve came out and said 'ok we will listen to the boycotters, we will release this content as DLC'

    ....and then priced it the same as a full price sequel

  • Yossarian #42 3 years ago

    Fun fact: the very first apartment building in the first chapter of No Mercy contains more brushes (blocks making up the structure of it) than an entire Team Fortress 2 level.

    But five campaigns (25 chapters) with extensive new art assets (models, textures) should be free!

  • Dizzy #43 3 years ago

    @daz_john_smith

    QFT = Quoted for Truth.... that means I agree with you ;)

  • Yossarian #44 3 years ago

    Trivia question: how many months did it take for the first free content update to arrive for Team Fortress 2?

    A: Six months.

    Bonus trivia question: how many months did it take for the first free content update to arrive for Left 4 Dead?

    A: Five months.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 11:00

  • Buztafen #45 3 years ago

    Its always meant 'Quite Fucking True' in my head....

  • DFawkes #46 3 years ago

    I used to think QFT meant Quit Flipping Talking, or similar. I was wrong, obviously.

    I liked that fact Yoss, that's the kind of thing I like to know. I'll regail everyone I play No Mercy with of that fact :)

  • Snidesworth #47 3 years ago

    I can see where the boycotters are coming from but their reaction is blown out of proportion. There does sound like there's enough stuff in L4D2 to warrant a full game release, but people are never happy when something was promised to them and then not delivered. I grumbled a bit when I heard about the price tag. I'm not going to boycott the game, but I won't pretend I didn't feel a little put off. That said, Valve have got a full game's worth of content there, as much as most sequels to other series do. I'd *like* it if there was a discount for those who already own L4D, but I don't expect it or feel that I should *demand* one. I'm not one of the people who think that Valve can do and have done no wrong, though.

  • daz_john_smith #48 3 years ago

    @Dizzy
    10 years online and I still don't know half the abbreviations. I only learned what IIRC was yesterday :p

  • bioreit #49 3 years ago

    @ penhalion

    Oh please, mystic sir, please tell me how dost thou gaze into yon future so bright and clear?

    Serioussly dude, you've completely written off Valve making more L4D1 content merely because they've announced the sequel.

    You've also oh-so-conveniently ignored two major points in your rant (although, to do so would have exposed the flaws in your argument, to be fair):

    1. Valve have come out and said that the announcement of L4D2 != no more content for L4D1. In fact, they have stipulated that they most definitely have NOT abandoned the first game.

    2. L4D2 has more in it that new weapons and campaigns - the AI Director's control of the scenery, for example.

    Well done you - you've played a pre-release of a game still almost 6 months away. It's not even finished yet you're already writing it off like it's a full-blown retail release.

    Muppet. (would have used stronger words, but the Internet filter at work would pick them out)

  • bioreit #50 3 years ago

    Oh and Yossarian - nice one dude! Well played on showing up the whiners with one nice little factoid :-)

  • Yossarian #51 3 years ago

    Here's what the glorious, blessed Team Fortress 2 community has received for free from Valve since release in October 2007:

    Gold Rush update (April 2008): 1 new map, 3 upgrades for doctor, 1 new gametype.

    Pyro update (June 2008): 2 new maps picked from the community (0 Valve maps), 3 pyro upgrades, no new gametypes.

    Heavy update (August 2008): 3 new Valve maps, 3 upgrades for heavy, 1 new gametype.

    Scout update (February 2009): 3 new maps, 3 scout upgrades, 0 new gametypes.

    Spy and Sniper update (May 2009): 3 new maps, 6 upgrades, 1 new gametype.


    Now, I'll be charitable and include the community-made maps in the following comparison: that's 12 maps in 18+ months. I'll be even more charitable and say a TF2 arena map is even half the size, or half as complex, as a full-blooded Left 4 Dead chapter (hint: it isn't). If the Left 4 Dead team worked at the same rate as the TF2 team at churning out free content for right-minded PC zealots everywhere, you would get an entire campaign's worth of content inside 18 months. Remember I'm being charitable here, and also ignoring the fact that Left 4 Dead maps require additional content TF2 maps don't, like the writing and recording of new survivor dialogue). That's also presuming they released the chapters one at a time, so you didn't have to wait that long to get some new levels. So... 18 months, for one new campaign.

    Nah, I think I'll pay for five campaigns arriving inside a year, thanks.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 11:10

  • lolife.se #52 3 years ago

    In a world where most console games net you about 10 hours of entertainment, they complain about a game that's good for hours of hours, for a such a relatively small amount of cash. Valve, don't listen to them, just give us more. But don't forget Half-Life while you're at it. :-)

  • Buztafen #53 3 years ago

    /loves Shakes statistics.
    /needs more graphs and tables though...

  • chasejamie #54 3 years ago

    Can't wait, going whip £40 out my wallet on release date, and hope their quick enough to release a 3rd one when I'll happily pay up again. I want more of the same quality of gaming that I've been enjoying the last half a year, and I am more than happy to pay for it again. Hoefully there will be a cheat to turn the zombies in the game into cheap ass pc gamers crying for more features and holding petition forms. So I can blast their face off with a shotgun, and dry hump them while swinging a chainsaw about at the same time.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 11:14

  • Buztafen #55 3 years ago

    chasejamie - It was £28.99 delivered (IIRC) from shopto pretty much on release.....im hoping theyve got the same deal on for L4D2.

  • Jimbob89 #56 3 years ago

    I actually can't believe people are complaining about a sequel to one of the best games of 2008.....I don't give a flying fuck if they think it's not a 'true sequel'. 5 new campaigns, new characters, new weapons, an improved AI director, a new unannounced multiplayer mode, new boss infected......what the hell is there to complain about? Grow up, buy the game, AND ENJOY IT. There's now 16,000 people in that group on steam, i bet you 15,999 of those people will buy the game, leaving one man thinking he's better than everyone else while everyone else is having fun.

  • zoidberg #57 3 years ago

    I have one little question.

    Why isn't Valve working on fucking HL2 EPISODE 3 and maybe the new PORTAL???

    I like L4D, it's fun, but it's not the so-called "EPISODC" half-life experience, now is it?

    GET TO WORK ON THE REAL STUFF VALVE!

    It wasn't time for a new L4D. It reeks of makin' a buck! Seriously.

  • bioreit #58 3 years ago

    @ penhalion

    Just noticed this little tidbit - "why trade range for a different zombie death animation?"

    Zombie-games really aren't your thing, are they? Dispatching zombies via a multitude of different, grisly methods is the whole reason d'etre of the genre! Imagine how dull and lifeless Dead Rising would have been if Capcom had said "We already have one melee weapon with the baseball bat. Do we really need any more?"

  • Optyk #59 3 years ago

    Where is my Half Life Episode 3?

  • HoriZon #60 3 years ago

    @zoidberg

    I have one little question.

    Why isn't Valve working on fucking HL2 EPISODE 3 and maybe the new PORTAL???

    I like L4D, it's fun, but it's not the so-called "EPISODC" half-life experience, now is it?

    GET TO WORK ON THE REAL STUFF VALVE!

    It wasn't time for a new L4D. It reeks of makin' a buck! Seriously.


    How do you know they aren't working on HL2 EP3?? they will be!! they have more teams than the HL team ffs, the people who made L4D were brought into Valve as the game was a mod at first. They have people working on TF2 and different people on L4D, Portal again wasn't Valve it as another mod team they brought into Valve.

    Why are people so dumb ?

    I for one think this a fair price to pay for new maps and players and infected i mean it will be a year apart how many games have the same thing only updated each year? CoD for one as WOW was last year and MW2 is really another CoD game, but people aren't moaning?? come on get a grip.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 11:31

  • Yossarian #61 3 years ago

    It is absolutely batshit insane to expect the amount of content in Left 4 Dead 2 to be made available for free. Either your understanding of business and costing is entirely fucking faulty, or you simply don't grasp the amount of time, work, and money that Valve have to invest to bring out something of this size. So I'm not even going to argue with anyone who holds that thought anymore.

    What I do appreciate is a more general sense of betrayal, because every one of these complainers copy-pastes that same Gabe interview snippet where he talks about supporting L4D post-launch in the same way they have TF2, and it appears now that simply isn't going to happen. Leaving aside for just a minute that to date their support for L4D has been more timely and more thorough than their support for TF2 was in the same post-launch window (ahem)... Valve do genuinely seem to have changed direction on this.

    But then I guess it's sort of like when they kept pushing back the release date for Half-Life. And Half-Life 2. And Episode 1. And Episode 2. And the way they promised new Portal levels (forgot that one, didn't ya!). And I guess it took them nine years to get Team Fortress 2 out (original announce year was 1998). Or how about when they promised a Black Box alongside Orange Box, so people wouldn't have to rebuy games they already had... no wait, they changed their minds there too (and oh boy, the complaints that followed...). Not even gonna touch all the times they 'failed' the CS community.

    I mean, I guess you could argue that Left 4 Dead 2 represents an unprecedented change in plans for Valve, that their rebooting L4D inside a year amounts to a broken promise that is entirely out of character...

    ...but you've have to be pretty fuckin' dumb.

    The only thing that's unprecedented here is Valve getting a quality sequel to a quality title out in a timely fashion. That's some real end of the world shit right there! Petition it!

  • Sub-kamikaze #62 3 years ago

    I have pre-ordered this so hard.

    People are mental.

    I mean, truly truly bat-shit bananas. This whole thing makes me vehemently shake my head from side-to-side .

  • lolife.se #63 3 years ago

    By the way, is there a Left 4 Dead 2 support group? There should be one...

  • colostomyexplosion #64 3 years ago

    Right On!

    HL2: Episode 3 should be free too. In fact Half-Life 2 should've been free, after all they were just trying to make a quick buck on the back of HL1....

  • StooMonster #65 3 years ago

    My cash is ready, I am happy to buy it.

    I just hope they have some integration worked out between the two titles so they don't divide the L4D audience into two small groups rather than one large community.

  • Yossarian #66 3 years ago

    I just hope they have some integration worked out between the two titles so they don't divide the L4D audience into two small groups rather than one large community.

    This is a genuine concern for me too.

  • andy #67 3 years ago

    I purchased L4D on day one and have poured hundreds of hours into it since (at the expense of sleep!). I even rent a dedicated server so myself and friends can have a decent game without some idiot ruining it.

    As for L4D2, there's a huge amount of content being included and in no way can Valve justify giving it away for free! I'll certainly be in the queue to purchase and pre-load as soon as it becomes available.

    And to all those monkey spanking freeloaders who complain because it takes them months to talk their mummy into buying a game for them - get a life and go play with an Action Man instead!

  • davisorle #68 3 years ago

    I dont agree with boycott the sequel but there is nothing embarasssing with what they are doing. Instead i actually find you fucktards for critising that way ppl that are asking for a reply to things that werent delivered. And no PC gamers arent the worst, you are incapable to understand since apparently you learned what FPS means after the Halo period, since thats when FPS genre was boosted on consoles and its a fact ( I love Halo, dont getme wrong on that one ).

    So wanting to be heard for not getting what you were told or paid for is not wrong, wrong is being a sheep like you are asking them to.. Yeah get the L4D 2 and nothing wrong with it comming out, but if they thought ( keyword since apparently L4D1 isnt left back ) that they wouldnt get updates on what they bought knowing they were going to, then yeah they have every right to complain about it. Instead of you ruinning the efforts of ppl that react to things they consider bullshit you should help out on things like those. Don't think you were all raised to be letting bullshit go along unnoticed cause i dont. Geta life and learn how to react to things like they do. Apparently PC gamers have a life and know how to do so when you dont. Nuf said :) :p

  • daz_john_smith #69 3 years ago

    Yeah!! Lets burn those bastards at Valve for not delivering on what was promised and abandoning L4D
    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-valve -not-closing-the-book-on-l4d

  • Jimbob89 #70 3 years ago

    Valve have stated in several internet interviews WHY they are making this into a sequel. What turned out to be some ideas for DLC at the start then escalated with several more, big ideas, where it came to the point where the content they were discussing was good enough to become a full sequel. Now if valve believe all this extra content is good enough for a sequel (people who do this for a fucking living) then who am i to question them? I understand why people may get a little upset, but if you look at the content valve are delivering surely you can understand WHY it is being sold as a standalone game? I've looked at the steam forums, and to me although there are some valid points, the majority of those people are just butthurt because valve haven't announced a new half life game, and the fact that they have to pay for another game. So when you say pc gamers have a life, i disagree, but that's just my opinion.

  • GreyScale #71 3 years ago

    @ davisorle - basically, all that comes down to is you want something for nothing.

  • bioreit #72 3 years ago

    @ davisorle

    I started FPSing on Wolfenstein 3D, before graduating to Doom, then Duke Nukem, then Quake (and Wolfenstein 3D and AVP on Jaguar), SIN, Unreal, Shogo: Mobile Armor Division, Project IGI, Kingpin: Life of Crime, Heretic, Quake II, Hexen, Unreal Tournament, Quake III: Arena, Half-Life, Counterstrike, Natural Selection and that's only the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

    THEN I bought Halo on console and haven't really looked back to the PC since. Do I qualify as being able to comment on these stupid idiots, then? Seeing as I've probably played more FPS than the bottom 10% of that group combined.

    They're a bunch of muppets through and through - the latent Fascist in me wishes that Valve would say "Fine. You won't ever get anything from us at all then, seeing as you'll just whine that it can't shine your shoes while feeding the dog!"

  • b00n #73 3 years ago

    15,000 idiots if you ask me... Let's hope Valve keeps doing what they're doing. Never seen a petition against CoD or any sports game that comes out without major differences every year. Oh well... sheep mentality without a doubt.

  • Sub-kamikaze #74 3 years ago

    @Davisorle

    Now, you see, what I'm criticising is the silly reaction to something that amounts to little more than a title announcement.

    There are about six gameplay videos floating around and some other sparse details, like incendiary bullets, hazmat zombies, melee weapons, and AI controlled level layouts. That's it. We just don't know if it'll be integrated with the first game, we don't know if it'll be part of a package, we don't know how fundamentally different or not it may be to the first game. We've been teased with a few details, and that's it. How about we wait for a bit more information, maybe a bit closer to the release date, and then everyone can have a rational stance on it?

    To get all worked up over something not clearly defined, when you have absolutely no other details, is more than ridiculous, it's the height of idiocy.

    Especially since Valve have clearly said that L4D will continue to be expanded upon. The only issue I can see here is that the community may be divided. If L4D2 takes the original concept, runs with it, and improves upon it, I don't see why that is that much of a deal.

  • Fido128 #75 3 years ago

    Well, I'm glad to see most other people view this as a load of old cockbluster.

    Valve are making a sequel to a much-loved game that has more content than the original, and they've been uncharacteristically quick about it. To be frank: where's the damn problem? Also, comparisons between EA and Valve seem pretty harsh considering EA's historical dedication to flogging dead horses.

    L4D has received well over 100 hours of play from me, and I already know the sequel will be the same. For 40 quid, that's a bargain.

  • peak_performance #76 3 years ago

    Valve gamers are idiots - news at eleven.

    Can understand them though.

  • Yossarian #77 3 years ago

    So wanting to be heard for not getting what you were told or paid for is not wrong, wrong is being a sheep like you are asking them to.. Yeah get the L4D 2 and nothing wrong with it comming out, but if they thought ( keyword since apparently L4D1 isnt left back ) that they wouldnt get updates on what they bought knowing they were going to, then yeah they have every right to complain about it.

    1. When you pay for L4D you are paying for the game as advertised, nothing more. You are effectively buying a license to install and play that game on your PC. If you buy it thinking that you are buying shares in it, that you own it, or have any investment or control in its development and evolution post-launch, you are foolish. This is one of the worst elements of PC zealotry, and it's the cause of complaints about Diablo II being "too bright" or, as someone else mentioned, your rogue in WoW getting nerfed. You do not own the game, and you do not have a say in what the developers choose to do with it. You are not buying futures here, you are buying an advertised product, albeit one that is subject to change. If you consider yourself so much more enlightened than your console 'kiddy' counterparts, why is it you seemingly fail to understand your end user license agreement?

    2. Yes, Gabe Newell made a (fairly throwaway) remark that they would support L4D as they have TF2. Fans of L4D on PC have since interpreted that remark as a categorical promise. Never mind that to date Valve have kept that 'promise' (releasing free content for L4D faster than they did for TF2), it is ridiculous to even consider this one interview snippet as some sort of blood oath sworn between developer and consumer. If you purchased the game solely on the basis that Gabe once said in an interview that they are planning to release content and updates for it (and remember, they have released content and updates for it, and have since said they may not be finished doing so), then I would argue the basis for that purchase is so tenuous that your ~$50 should be written off as a needlessly risky investment.

    3. Yes, they have ever right to complain about what they perceive to be a broken promise, no matter how silly such complaints might be; similarly, I have every right to make fun of them for doing so.


    P.S. My first FPS games were Wolfenstein 3D and Ultima Underworld, and for all of the 90s I was a devout owner of a gaming PC. You do not get to lecture me about first person games... ever.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 12:34

  • roz123 #78 3 years ago

    I dunno, i have been invited to the group by some twat whos being blocked and there are around 16,000 members now. Other groups i have been invited into from L4D players have over 500,000. This group is a tiny minority for PC gamers and most likely includes people who didnt like L4D at all and rabid fans who want the next slice of HL2.

    Yes they did break some promises as it was released light on content with valve saying we wiill keep it updated for a while. But its such a good game and with so much replayability its not much paying £30 for an improved and larger game.

    Yosserian your comparision to TF2 saying they would have added only 1 new campaign in 18 months is a bit silly as apart from maps they have introduced new weapons with completly new characteristics and worked out all the balancing issues that comes with it. A set of L4D maps where the director does the work for you would be simple in comparison.

  • Sub-kamikaze #79 3 years ago

    @Yoss,

    Dammit, I very much want to take up the obvious gauntlet and lecture you about FPS's, but your argument is correct and to do so would be churlish.

  • Yossarian #80 3 years ago

    Yosserian your comparision to TF2 saying they would have added only 1 new campaign in 18 months is a bit silly as apart from maps they have introduced new weapons with completly new characteristics and worked out all the balancing issues that comes with it. A set of L4D maps where the director does the work for you would be simple in comparison.

    The director isn't magic, chum. You have to tell him where he can spawn zombies, and how, and make sure that those zombies have a route to every place the survivors can get. You have to devise ways for the special infected to get around the map. You have to structure and balance crescendo events, weapon and health spawns, tank and witch spawns, all the while worrying about traditionally singleplayer concerns like pacing and difficulty curves. Make no mistake: L4D levels are far larger and far more complicated than the average TF2 arena map. They require much, much more work, especially on the balancing side. I was being really, really charitable with the comparison.

    I didn't bother going into TF2's class and weapon updates, because surely everyone here knows that L4D2 contains more than twenty new pieces of weaponry and equipment, as well as three new special infected, new director AI, deformable zombies, and plenty more I won't take the time to list. I was talking solely about the complexity of L4D levels and making a comparison with the TF2 release schedule because I didn't think the rest of it needed to be spelled out. Guess I was wrong.

  • Saint_of_Killers #81 3 years ago

    Gearskin:How long was TF2 delayed? HL2? The original HL?

    YEARS!

    And now Valve are able to develope, test and release a sequel within 12 months? Shows how much effort is really going in, no?

    Not a lot!

    TF2, HL2 and 1 were Valve developed games.

    Turtle Rock Studios is behind Left 4 Dead 1 and 2.

  • Yossarian #82 3 years ago

    The best thing about this comments thread is it reminded me of Kingpin, and my friend calling me in excitedly from the other room to look at a turd modelled in full 3D floating in a toilet bowl.

  • psychokitten #83 3 years ago

    My God, davisorle, you're so full of it. Some of the people you're aiming that bullshit at include people that have been playing FPS since the olden days (includes me), for fuck sake. Grow up.

    I for one welcome L4D2, I have played the first (on both platforms) for an obscene amount of hours.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 12:57

  • Sub-kamikaze #84 3 years ago

    Kingpin was great. It's been ten years since it's release - I just don't think it's safe for Grey Matter to announce a sequel yet.

    /readies petition

  • wonton #85 3 years ago

    The fact that a campaign requires 4 complete maps as opposed to one demands a big commitment from modders. Currently I only know of one potential high quality full custom campaign (made with the original hl2 hammer editor). Unfortunately there's been no updates recently, maybe that guy is busy wrestling with the new nav map creation function (that spawns mobs. Properly) that came with the sdk. The fact that the sdk came so late didnt help.

    I fear that left4dead 1 may see very little custom content if at all. Shame really. I had a play around with the left4dead sdk, making stuff and getting it running in game is incredibly easy and intuitive. There's alot of potential in there.

  • roz123 #86 3 years ago

    You can just turn the director on and yes it does do the leg work for you. People proved that in the first week when they stuck them in other source levels and it worked. Yes I know there are alot of balancing and placement issues that need to be put in place but its not that difficult and the same goes for TF2 levels. I think your size comparison is wrong aswell, most of the levels in tf2 are made of 3 sections and some are completly new game modes.
    Dont get me wrong i am not complaining that L4D2 should be released as free content, i am just saying that comparing all the content released for free on TF2 to one campaign of L4D is so far off the mark its untrue.

    My only other gripe is they didnt get the SDK out before announcing L4D2. I know the content will be brought across but serious map makers are going to wait for all the new content first.

  • Yossarian #87 3 years ago

    A little googling turned up Kingpin on this list of 'pooey games' (wtf?):

    [link url=http://anna-ghislaine.blogspot.com/2007/11/pooey-game s.html
    ]http://an na-ghislaine.blogspot.com/2007/...[/link]

    Seems I am not the only one who remembers it for this reason.

  • AliRay #88 3 years ago

    A friend of mine just made an interesting comment:

    "Could this be anything to do with pressure from M$ not wanting Valve to release more free updates on the 360?"

  • chudders #89 3 years ago

    Is there a petition boycotting the petitioners? I'd consider joining that.

    Someone start one.

  • Sub-kamikaze #90 3 years ago

    Can someone tell me why Microsoft would intervene? I genuinely don't understand why they would. I'm probably being very slow. This is nothing new.

  • Spekingur #91 3 years ago

    Wow. So many haters towards PC gamers here, I could almost mistake it for a bunch of Nazis.
    The "best" part about this is though that the reason why they make a number 2 in the series is because of the console crowd, not the PC crowd. They are easier to sell to.

  • Toothball #92 3 years ago

    Hmm, it'd be rather nice if you could export the L4D content for use in L4D2, in the same way that you can currently do with Rock Band. Quite unlikely though.

  • Yossarian #93 3 years ago

    You can just turn the director on and yes it does do the leg work for you. People proved that in the first week when they stuck them in other source levels and it worked. Yes I know there are alot of balancing and placement issues that need to be put in place but its not that difficult and the same goes for TF2 levels. I think your size comparison is wrong aswell, most of the levels in tf2 are made of 3 sections and some are completly new game modes.

    It's not solely an issue of size, it's an issue of complexity. A TF2 level by design is simpler, flatter, more cartoon-y, with less extraneous detail than the average building in L4D. There's simply far fewer brushes in a TF2 level than in a L4D one.

    And yes, I have seen the videos of the Director populating other Source levels and spawning hordes, but it's a far, far cry from levels which are actually designed and built for that purpose, which work as advertised, and which are balanced and paced properly. It's the difference between people getting the portal gun to work in HL2 levels, and the properly finished and polished Portal levels. L4D gameplay requires that when not in a safe room you can always be reached by the horde (and even today there are blind spots in some of the existing L4D maps, including the exploits people found for survival). Fine-tuning that, making sure the specials always have access to you, have places they can spawn freely, and can move around the levels with ladders, secret rooms etc., and generally pacing and balancing the environments, makes it a far trickier business. L4D levels are basically singleplayer levels, with a lot of the same concerns, as opposed to multiplayer arenas. And when you factor in story elements and everything else (mainly writing, acting, and recording dialogue -- all of which costs, and has to be paid for -- but also littering the levels with the sort of detail we saw in L4D with grafitti on safe-room walls etc.)... it's a longer and more complex process.

    Also, re: game modes being added in TF2, L4D2 will also have Survival levels (presumably for each of its crescendo events, same as L4D1), and another game mode yet to be announced.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 13:22

  • Gearskin #94 3 years ago

    The Mod community for L4D has already produced more content than Valve themselves.

    We've all seen the gameplay vids of this sequel... same engine, same gameplay, subtle alterations that you won't even notice.

    And lets not forget that L4D was a full priced game, took YEARS to make... and shipped with about 4 hours of content, all told.

    That's sad.

    Valve puts too much faith in their community to do the work. L4D2 is arguably the second half of the original game we never got.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 13:24

  • Yossarian #95 3 years ago

    Hmm, it'd be rather nice if you could export the L4D content for use in L4D2, in the same way that you can currently do with Rock Band. Quite unlikely though.

    They already announced that anything created using the SDK will work happily in L4D2, although obviously people won't be able to use all the Director 2.0 stuff like dynamic weather yet.

  • Yossarian #96 3 years ago

    and shipped with about 4 hours of content, all told.

    I've played those '4 hours' for maybe ~200 hours, and had fun 90% of the time. I still play those '4 hours', over and over, with friends, enjoying myself. Thank God they didn't put more 'content' in there, or I don't know how I'd find the time to sleep or eat.

  • skillian #97 3 years ago

    the reason why they make a number 2 in the series is because of the console crowd, not the PC crowd. They are easier to sell to.

    This is the simple truth. If L4D was just a PC game there's no way a sequel would even be considered yet.

    The argument that EA and Activision do yearly updates is completely missing the point. Valve is not EA, and while some of the criticism is clearly over the top, I believe this is the main reason why people are disappointed with Valve.

    PC gamers just don't want Valve to "do an Epic" and become another console-centric developer churning out sequels for the Christmas market, and are hoping L4D isn't a sign of things to come.

    Most console gamers don't realise just how special Valve are to the PC community, and therefore don't realise why we hold Valve to a higher standard than other developers.

  • Gearskin #98 3 years ago

    Still doesn't disguise the fact that it's not packing much content at all. Regardless of how much fun you personally find it.

  • HoriZon #99 3 years ago

    Most console gamers don't realise just how special Valve are to the PC community, and therefore don't realise why we hold Valve to a higher standard than other developers.


    Most PC gamers don't realise that Valve are a business and are here to make money to pay their staff so they can pay their mortgages etc and get new money to make new games and content for older games at the end of the day there in this business to make money if they did it for the love of the games only you wouldn't see any extra content at all.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 13:36

  • psychokitten #100 3 years ago

    And more of the same. Assumptions people that want L4D2 are CONSOLE GAMERS who JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND

    I'm a PC gamer, so cut that shit out. Valve are special to me, always have been and always will be. I get it. But L4D is special to me and I'm looking forward to L4D2.

  • Rubarack #101 3 years ago

    It's not like Valve to do this kind of half-hearted, quick cash in sequel. To some extent I bought L4D despite it's lack of content, because this is Valve the one company you can really trust to keep supporting a game and not to replace it until they can truly offer something more. But it seems it's not Valve any more, they're turning into another EA, with quick cash in sequels one after another populated with draconian DRM and tossed aside at a moments notice. It's a shame but I'm not going to complain about "betrayal", just when they announce a new game they'll have to work damn hard to get my attention, just like everyone else does these days.

  • Yossarian #102 3 years ago

    Most console gamers don't realise just how special Valve are to the PC community, and therefore don't realise why we hold Valve to a higher standard than other developers.

    That argument would make sense if I hadn't bought the original Half-Life on the day it was released, and didn't own every Valve game except L4D on PC. Hell, I've played Half-Life 2 five times across three platforms. I understand how special Valve are, because they're my favourite developer. I still think the announcement of L4D2 as a full-priced game released a year after the original is awesome. In a way I am part of the PC community, just not a part you want to acknowledge when making inane arguments about why shit should be free.



    Still doesn't disguise the fact that it's not packing much content at all. Regardless of how much fun you personally find it.

    Oh my God, listen to yourself. You're telling me I should care more about the objective 'content' a game has over how much actual genuine fun I personally get out of that game?! In what world is this a rational way to think about the value you are getting from games?

  • HoriZon #103 3 years ago

    I have had my money out of L4D bought it for £35 the day it came out and still rack up on average 15/20 hours on it a week, one vs. game can take up to 2 hours if not longer with the EG peeps!

    5 new campaigns all that new vs. fun i cant wait! and if it costs me another £5 so be it.

  • Sub-kamikaze #104 3 years ago

    Yossarian, a plea for rationality is like hunting for a needle in a haystack factory made of haystacks in the county Haystack.

  • skillian #105 3 years ago

    Most PC gamers don't realise that Valve are a business and are here to make money

    Straw man. Pretty much everybody on the planet reliases that any company has the aim of making money.

    Assumptions people that want L4D2 are CONSOLE GAMERS who JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND/That argument would make sense if I hadn't bought the original Half-Life on the day it was released

    It was a generalisation sure, but I'm willing to bet that most of the people calling out the"morons, whiners, cheap-asses" etc. are console gamers, and those on the petition are PC gamers. There is clearly a difference in opinion between the two groups as a whole, and I don't see why people get personally insulted when that is pointed out. Obviously this doesn't mean that every PC owner is disgusted with Valve's behaviour.

    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 13:44

  • Yossarian #106 3 years ago

    "...and those on the petition are PC gamers."

    You're willing to bet that the people petitioning on Steam are PC gamers? That's a real leap of faith there, buck.

  • skillian #107 3 years ago

    You're willing to bet that the people petitioning on Steam are PC gamers? That's a real leap of faith there, buck.

    I'm sure you knew the point I was making, but chose a patronising snide remark instead of addressing it.

    Fits the theme of the thread at least I suppose - insults and dramatic tearing down of arguments that aren't being made in the first place.
    Edited by 2 at 08/06/09 @ 13:51

  • Sub-kamikaze #108 3 years ago

    L4D is a wonderful game. And now we can have another one! It doesn't get better than that!

    I was worried that we'd have to wait another couple of years - thank God they've really pulled out all the stops. That's a good effort right there.

    And, if anything, Valve has saved me lots of money. Rather than go out of an evening, I've opted to stay in with L4D.

    Valve: Game developer and Personal Finance Assistant.

    Is there anything they can't do?
    Edited by 4 at 08/06/09 @ 14:01

  • Yossarian #109 3 years ago

    I think I could agree that generally console gamers are far more willing to pony up for DLC, and are far less used to getting free content. But I also think PC gaming's sense of entitlement is ludicrous, and that's from someone who enjoyed the fruits of Epic's free content for UT growing up.

    I also believe painting L4D2 as an 'add on pack' or 'expansion pack' or 'DLC' is ridiculous given the scope of the content they have announced (much of which has not yet been shown). And let's not forget Valve have charged for expansion packs in the past, albeit not at full price. If you don't recognise that L4D2 is worth more than e.g. Opposing Force, then I really don't know what to say to you.

  • chasejamie #110 3 years ago

    Left 4 Dead 2 should just be a 360 exclusive. Leave the PC gamers with the original and thier mods/updates etc, and what not. Half of them will probably just get a pirate version anyway.

  • Sunyavadin #111 3 years ago

    Valve? Making cynical cash grabs?


    That's as unexpected as, oooh.... as everyone who signs a petition boycotting a sequel like this going out and buying it on day of release.

  • Sub-kamikaze #112 3 years ago

    Probably rising to the bait, but when have Valve ever made a cynical cash grab? When, in their previous track record, have they ever made such a move? Why was this expected?

    Silly billies.

  • Fido128 #113 3 years ago

    Still doesn't disguise the fact that it's not packing much content at all. Regardless of how much fun you personally find it.

    With respect, that's naff logic. Like complaining that Tetris has no content because there's only that one table to play on.

  • skillian #114 3 years ago

    @Yossarian

    On quite a few points there I agree with you. I would certainly agree that was has been proposed for L4D2 would be ridiculous as free new content. Even after the incredible support for TF2 that would have overly-generous.

    But what about throwing us a bone here? One of those 5 new campaigns could have come to L4D1, with the rest going to the sequel? Or maybe bring one of those new weapons in?

    Rightly or wrongly, many (PC) gamers bought the game on idea that there would be more content forthcoming - I genuinely thought it seemed a little light on content when I bought it for me (and two friends), but seeing as every Valve multiplayer game has had additional content released at a later date, and the head of the company said that would be also true this time around, I think it's a little unfair to be called an ungrateful, whining moron who probably pirated the game anyway just because I took that at face value.

    This is why I say some people just don't get it, because if you have any experience of Valve's previous games and MO then you would have to admit there was some surprise when you heard that a sequel was coming instead of that content. Even if you don't agree with the point of view you should be able to see why some might take it the wrong way.

    As to your last point, I suspect that despite being an expansion pack, there was more genuinely new content and plain hard work gone into Blue Shift than there is in L4D2. But of course I haven't seen the game yet and I suspect Valve still hacve a few things up their sleeve, so I couldn't really say yet ;)

  • bioreit #115 3 years ago

    @ skillian

    "PC gamers just don't want Valve to "do an Epic" and become another console-centric developer churning out sequels for the Christmas market, and are hoping L4D isn't a sign of things to come.

    Most console gamers don't realise just how special Valve are to the PC community, and therefore don't realise why we hold Valve to a higher standard than other developers.     "

    Well, maybe the thieving ghets that are quite a hefty percentage of PC gamers should accept a modicum of responsibility for all those games they pirate, forcing devs like Epic to look more towards console gamers as a means of ensuring monetary reward for their hard efforts.

  • skillian #116 3 years ago

    Well, maybe the thieving ghets that are quite a hefty percentage of PC gamers should accept a modicum of responsibility for all those games they pirate, forcing devs like Epic to look more towards console gamers as a means of ensuring monetary reward for their hard efforts.

    Perhaps they should.

    That doesn't really make those that pay for their games feel any better though, nor does it make the move from respected and innovative developer to lowest common denominator middleware and shovelware peddler any more welcome.

  • bigshot316 #117 3 years ago

    It exasperates me that some sad fuckers are actually so irate about this that they are petitioning.
    I mean, I'm broke but £40 is hardly the end of the frigging world is it?
    I wish these cheese dicks would just shurrup and realise just how truly wonderful this is going to be.
    I mean if Jesus reappeared tomorrow, I wouldn't give a crap compared to L4D2!
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 14:31

  • bioreit #118 3 years ago

    @ skillian

    "Rightly or wrongly, many (PC) gamers bought the game on idea that there would be more content forthcoming"

    And which part of Doug Lombardi's statement that " "It's definitely not the case that we're closing the book on L4D and saying, 'Next time you get anything is when the sequel comes out'" " cancels out that assumption by PC gamers?

    Or maybe you and all the others are coveniently ignoring that assertion.

    I just don't get why the announcement of a sequel seems to automatically mean to PC gamers that the original is being abandoned, especially when, as Yossarian so eloquently proved, L4D got content far quicker than TF2.

    Nothing better to bitch and whine about, I guess...

  • neilqpr #119 3 years ago

    I bought fifa there a while back. It only has one 'level' and the game lasts for five minutes. What an outrage!

  • Kremlik Verified Co-Founder, Crash To Desktop #120 3 years ago

    I'm still finding is funny how everyone is assuming this is all pc gamers - I'm sure those 360 users that just picked up the GOTY version for full price for a disk with a FREE update on would be pissed atm too.I find it also interesting how everyone compares L4D to TF2 when they aren't exactally the same game type, it's like comparing the Resi Evil Outbreak (which I feel is what L4D roots are from) to CoD4/5 online.

    The TF2 updates don't really need big changes to improve the game, L4D2 does, and the comments of 'same engine' needs to be looked at as it clearly is a new engine Director 2.0 in't something that can be slapped on to the orginal, we are talking some serius AI here and all those variables etc can't be taken lightly - if they did just 'slap it on' for free most would be complaing how buggy it is.

    The only issue I truly have with L4D2 was it was accounced too soon in L4D's lifecycle they could have at least accounced it on L4D's 1st birthday - instead they've shot themselfs in the foot as for the next chunck of months they wont get any new users to L4D as L4D2 would be deemed 'better' to buy.

    What really would sort this out easily is players with L4D get 'unlocks' in L4D2 based on their progress in L4D that wouldn't be hard to do as they can just use the achevment system to do that... Everyone wins then.

  • Saint_of_Killers #121 3 years ago

    This is the simple truth. If L4D was just a PC game there's no way a sequel would even be considered yet.

    The argument that EA and Activision do yearly updates is completely missing the point. Valve is not EA, and while some of the criticism is clearly over the top, I believe this is the main reason why people are disappointed with Valve.

    PC gamers just don't want Valve to "do an Epic" and become another console-centric developer churning out sequels for the Christmas market, and are hoping L4D isn't a sign of things to come.

    Most console gamers don't realise just how special Valve are to the PC community, and therefore don't realise why we hold Valve to a higher standard than other developers.

    Yes, they're so precious to you that you jump a bloody bandwagon slating them when they've given you so much for free. Have some trust in them ffs!

  • skillian #122 3 years ago

    Yes, they're so precious to you that you jump a bloody bandwagon slating them when they've given you so much for free.

    Quote me where I have slated them. I don't think you can.

    I'm just saying that there is some middle ground and both sides have some valid arguments, but as usual such a position cannot be reasonably held on EG. Everything is black and white, and everyone is either a c**t or a hero.

  • Saint_of_Killers #123 3 years ago

    Quote me where I have slated them. I don't think you can.

    I'm just saying that there is some middle ground and both sides have some valid arguments, but as usual such a position cannot be reasonably held on EG. Everything is black and white, and everyone is either a c**t or a hero.

    Apologies for tarring you with the same brush! I've had two days of reading the Valve bashing by some and it got to me. But I do take you up on the Epic comment because they were churning out year-on-year sequels on the PC long before Gears of War came along (UT 2003 and 04 come to mind -but they too offer a load of content for nothing). That and I don't like you implying it's the fault of the consoles! If it were wouldn't we have Half Life Ep 3 by now? Or how about a full blown retail Portal 2?

    And you give the people who are upset about L4D 2 too much credit. Have you read some of the things they're upset about? They're no different to the divs who complained about Diablo III being too colourful.

    If Valve don't keep to their L4D promise (there's a YouTube of it knocking about) then I'll understand the rage, but some of the crap I've read makes me wish the people who complained about L4D 2 being so bright it didn't fit in with L4D do get shafted deep and hard.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 15:12

  • Gearskin #124 3 years ago

    @Yossarian

    So you're saying that because you found 4 hours worth of game entertaining EVERYONE should find 4 hours worth of game entertaining?

    By any standard L4D lacks content.

    Single player is non-existent.

    Multiplayer has 4 "scenarios", a limited weapon set, 4 player skins and 5 enemy types.

    Big Whoop!

    It's hardly anything in this day and age.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 15:14

  • GreyScale #125 3 years ago

    Do you play and enjoy L4D Gearskin? You're being a hypocite if you do. If you don't play it, then what does it matter? No one cares what you think constitutes 'content'.

  • gringohairpiece #126 3 years ago

    Don't have any issues with them releasing L4D2. At the end of the day we can choose to buy it or not. I am however bloody pissed off that we are still waiting for the updates to TF2 on the 360 that PC owners have had for ages. I appreciate the delivery system is different but even so it's been a bloody long wait for nothing....

  • Gearskin #127 3 years ago

    @GreyScale

    I have it on PC, via STEAM.
    I haven't sunk that many hours into it, if I'm honest. Not the main game anyway. I tired VERY quickly of repeating the campaigns. I've actually spent more time with the content produced by fans. Some of it is very good.

    I especially like the solo mod, where you play it alone against zombies that have been slowed down a bit.

  • Sunyavadin #128 3 years ago

    I for one can't wait because L4D just got BORING for me.

    It's the same old crap. Every time. With not enough variation to keep my interest.


    I'm just gonna assume the existing game was a beta, and this, if it lives up to the promises, is the full game.

  • Gearskin #129 3 years ago

    @CountFapula

    Brilliant logic. I guess people who aren't directly affected by the topic aren't allowed an opinion then? Is this just on videogames, or everything in life?

  • Gearskin #130 3 years ago

    I liked the first game and bought it, specifically on PC, because I expected it would get further support from Valve. I think I might have actually paid MORE when buying it through Steam to get it on release.

    I care because I put money down.

    Aren't you the same twonk who sounded off against Bioshock 2 multiplayer and Infamous recently?
    Ignored.

  • bioreit #131 3 years ago

    @ Gearskin

    "because I expected it would get further support from Valve"

    You fail at basic reading and comprehension. Doug Lombardi was quoted on this very site promising that the announcement of L4D2 did NOT consitute an abandonment of L4D1 in terms of new content.

  • ThemisB #132 3 years ago

    Disgraceful, pathetic, pointless and embarrassing. Valve should just pull the PC version, teach them all a lesson. But they've too much respect for their consumer (more than most other developers - and this is coming from a PS3 owner!) to do something like that.

    People just don't like change, even when they don't actually know anything about the change and fail to consider whether or not it might just be a hell of a lot better. Which it will, because Valve rarely let us down.

  • Gearskin #133 3 years ago

    @bioreit

    With the sequel due inside of 6 months, we won't be seeing anything substantial added to the original. They'll get some tools out to the Mod community and leave the support to them.

  • Spekingur #134 3 years ago

    @psychokitten: Do not assume that ONLY console gamers want L4D2. I play L4D on the PC and I love it. I also want L4D2. The point I was trying to make was that the reason why L4D2 turns up so soon is more likely because of consoles rather than PCs. Thus it feels more like a cash-in on the console crowd rather than the PC crowd. And I think it is funny to see all these comments about pirating (comments who I can only assume are from console owners). We all know that if you could download pirated stuff through consoles people would do exactly that. And the assumption that most of the petitioners are pirates? Seriously? And that pirates affect the sales of Valve's software?
    Just recently there was a good talk about digital downloads, through things like Steam. If released only on that kind of a platform you can cut alot of costs with packaging, shipping, etc. And I have no doubt, at all, that Valve has gotten their monies worth of L4D ten times over.

    As for L4D2, I'm just hoping for a map where you'll have to wade through water (New Orleans maybe? (watch the movie Hard Rain and imagine it full of infected)) - and I almost wish for a tower where I could just sit for hours and hours sniping down infected. Call it 'Clear the town of infected' game mode. And I just wish Valve would bring us locations from around the world. Like Paris, Venice or somewhere in the Middle-East. With known landmarks. Battle the infected whilst trying to get to the top of one of the pyramids in Giza!
    Edited by 2 at 08/06/09 @ 16:23

  • psychokitten #135 3 years ago

    Do not assume that ONLY console gamers want L4D2. I play L4D on the PC and I love it.

    Please read my comment again, I never implied that at all. I'm a console gamer AND a PC gamer, I bought the first game on both platforms because I had different friends playing on either.

    It's OTHER people in this comment thread that seem to assume everyone in favour of L4D2 is a console gamer, you should direct your post at them, rather than me. I'm just tired of the attitude people have towards others because of platform (whether it's console warzzzz or PC fanboys slagging console users).

  • GreyScale #136 3 years ago

    L4D2 looks like absolutely amazing bloody fun, I don't know how fans of the original can read the previews and watch the trailer and the only thing that concerns them is the fact that it isn't going to be free for them. Unbelievable.

  • wired009 #137 3 years ago

    I think Valve is making some big marketing mistakes with L4D2. They are essentially releasing an expansion, and it seems to me they would stand to make more money by maintaining support for the first game. When you release a sequel, it usually puts a huge dampener on the previous title in the series. Why didn't they want to release L4D2 as paid DLC? Why didn't they want to release L4D2 as an expansion? Think about it. So instead of earning (price of game1[$40] + price of DLC[~$10-15]) or (price of game1[$40] + price of expansion[$30]) they will end up with (price of game 2[$50]). Releasing as a sequel kills a lot of the sales and marketing momentum that was generated with the first game, and as we have witnessed, alienates the fanbase (15,000 people buying expansions or not buying sequels is still worth a decent amount of money, however you want to look at it). You might say that Valve has nearly maxed out the sales potential for L4D1. I think they can still reel in a lot of new customers by bundling both games together. Releasing L4D2 as an expansion is really a smarter move that makes customers happy by giving them more content and still makes a lot of money for Valve, which some of the posters seems to care strongly about.

  • Gearskin #138 3 years ago

    It's options though, more to work with. It can't be denied that more mutations on the basics would make the game better. Like the extensive settings in Halo's multiplayer.

    The mod community has done a lot with L4D

  • skillian #139 3 years ago

    Why didn't they want to release L4D2 as paid DLC?

    Without wishing another 10 people to jump on me, I think it's genuinely because of the console factor. Releasing that much content as a digital download is difficult when there are numerous hoops that need to be jumped through and you can't rely on people even having a hard drive in the first place.

    This is what I meant when I say this wouldn't be a sequel if it was just a PC game, it's not a fanboy argument or "slagging console users", it's a valid problem for the situation that Valve find themselves in.

    There's no way Valve wanted a repeat of the TF2 debacle, and this is just the fairest way to ensure both platforms have equal access to the same content.

  • DocRobotnik #140 3 years ago

    How dare Valve do what every other publisher in the world does and produce a timely sequel to a popular game.

    Fucking smacktards and their bloody petitions - I bet they don't vote.

  • makeamazing #141 3 years ago

    So let me get this straight, lots of people here are complaining about lots of people over there who are complaining...LOL.. funny.

    I dont agree with the L4D expansion, which it is, but i will vote by not purchasing it. Especially considering I got well screwed with the price of L4D on steam.

  • localnotail #142 3 years ago

    ok. 154 comments is a lot to get through. Is it worth it? Or shall I just ask - is this really the latest instalment of PC (tightwad technological superiority) vs XBOX (fun! fun! fun!)?

    for what it's worth, I'd like to place myself in the pro-L4D2 camp.

    /waves "Frying pans FTW" banner excitedly and holds out her hard-earned cash in readiness
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 18:16

  • GiarcYekrub #143 3 years ago

    Who'd get this worked up over a game? Some people need to gain some perspective. Anyway at least it has Zombies in it and it's not prequel

  • barnard666 #144 3 years ago

    in the words of the EDF - I AGREE. make it DLC

  • Spekingur #145 3 years ago

    You know, Rockstar should create a DLC for GTA4 where Liberty City has become zombie infested. But they won't because they are too focused on creating material that is bound to create lots of fuss in the media.

  • Pablo2k5 #146 3 years ago

    15,000 spoilt 11 year olds opinions don't count.

    ...besides, the game was probably bought for them by their parents, the little shits!
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/09 @ 18:34

  • bad09 #147 3 years ago

    Well I don't do that much PC gaming anymore so speaking as L4D console player I'm happy to support this sequel. In an industry where gamers are now milked with DLC in the most blatantly disgusting rip off ways and the cost of a (complete) single game spirals, devs like Valve/Criterion etc. giving FREE DLC away deserve our cash IMO.

    If snooty PC owners don't want a sequel to one of the best of last year don't waste your money on 'em Valve give it to 360 and why not love the PS3 guys some more, I'm sure many of them would LOVE L4D (1 and 2). Just give PC the content you already said will still come for L4D1 and leave the sequel on the consoles!


  • FogHeart #148 3 years ago

    Here's what happened:-

    1) They release L4D
    2) Immediately after Valve staff tell the press that it will be expanded with new maps, monsters, movies and weapons - "Like TF2" they said.
    3) L4D players start to fill their Steam forum with ideas for maps, monsters, movies and weapons.
    4) One month after release, Valve do their brainstorming session and decide to put all new maps, movies, monsters and weapons into a sequel.
    5) L4D fans continue to submit their ideas. Valve have publicly stated that they read the forum and take on board what's said, so the fans know this is where to put down their wishlists. Meanwhile Valve are using the forum for ideas that they'll put into the sequel, while the fans are submitting ideas for a game they think they already have.
    6) Valve never tell the L4D fans about the sequel that they've been supplying ideas for- it's sprung on them at E3.

    Now, Valve have done nothing they aren't allowed to do. Just like all those MPs who claimed on crazy expenses, they didn't do anything illegal, it just feels rudeand bad mannered. Not immoral, it's not that bad, and it's their game etc etc...but they have said one thing and then done another, which is very unlike them, they have run contrary to their philosophy where they say they won't nickel and dime existing customers for small updates - instead they just lump them together in a premium BIG update, which is quite unlike them too.

    We don't feel cheated on money - I still play most nights but I must say the four campaigns feel VERY routine by now, and I have no more L4D stories to tell - I can't say I haven't had my money's worth. But when I consider everything TF2 got, L4D feels like the younger son who watches his naughtier elder brother get showered with gifts from doting aunts and uncles while we get just enough to keep quiet.

    Yes, I am a middle child :)

  • cwk27 #149 3 years ago

    Really, what I don't get is why everyone from both sides are resorting to name calling, simply on the basis of the platform they use. Stuff like "If snooty PC owners don't want a sequel to one of the best of last year don't waste your money on 'em Valve give it to 360" and the like.

    I mean really guys, please don't assume that because one party uses one platform, they're all tarred with the same brush.

    Now personally, I can understand all the complaints that've been brought up. I've followed the arguments and suggestions on the Steam forums since release, I've given a couple of my own too these past few months.

    I also remember really wishing that I could play more campaigns, and didn't really like survival mode.

    Now when the next game comes out, I'll probably order it anyway, I mean who am I kidding, I love this game.

    But even the more hardcore console fans amongst you have to at least see why people are pissed.

    Fogheart's comment really sums it up. Valve aren't doing anything illegal or wrong. It just feels a little rude and badly thought out.

    IMO, Valve should really quickly come up with their update for L4D1 or at least announce their update plans to keep the wolves at bay. Because all that everyone's pissed off about is due to their perceived inequality when they hear about all this great news for L4D2 with no bone for L4D1. This information discrepency makes people think that L4D2 is getting all the glory and with nothing concrete announced for L4D1 anymore, they make the assumption that whatever they'll get is of far lower value.

    To be fair to the anti camp though, I can't really see them releasing much more than Matchmaker 2.0 and the official SDK for L4D1. To release any new weapons or special infected would take attention away from L4D2 and make it seem less special. At best, they might introduce the new Charger infected and different ammo types, but I highly doubt it if it's going to be a highlight of their sequel.

    Personally, just a new campaign for versus would be perfect and would quell any problems that I may have. I don't need any new special infected for now, just some new campaigns.

  • autogunner #150 3 years ago

    I play TF2 almost every day for an hour or two, I spent ages playing L4D with my family and firends for maybe a month after its release, and for a couple of weeks after the DLC, the experience was better than all those hours on TF2, and some new experiences will be greatly appreciated.

    Its a bit criminal that I will have to buy 4 copies for each member of my family so we can all play at once though...
    Edited by 1 at 09/06/09 @ 00:00

  • smelly #151 3 years ago

    me didnt like L4D - but i dont see why this couldnt just be a mission pack?

  • Hog-lumps #152 3 years ago

    Just a comment to the people moaning that the realease is too soon for valve to have had time to create significat content to warrent a sequel.

    From watching the developer commentry and press releases, I understood that one of the key reasons that valve created the AI director was that it freed up the teams recources to concentrate on level design and art assets. The AI can then simply popultate their finished levels, control pace/tension, lighting/sound etc. automatically without much extra input from the developer.

    This streamlined development process must surely be quicker/easier and more productive than the more traditional way? - so surely it's no surprise that they've come up enough content for a sequel already??

    Personally, I'm excited about more L4D and during these economic times I don't think its a surprise that they want to charge for it it either.......
    Edited by 1 at 09/06/09 @ 08:49

  • kangarootoo #153 3 years ago

    @penhalion

    "The long and short of it is that there is nothing in L4D2 that wasn't requested as a fix or update for L4D1 by the community some of you are bashing."

    So bloody what. Requesting a feature doesn't give you a right to it for free. Or are you suggesting that Valve "pinched" the ideas of the community and should give the results back for free? Ideas are two a penny, its making the actual game content that takes time and money.

  • kangarootoo #154 3 years ago

    @skillian

    "Most PC gamers don't realise that Valve are a business and are here to make money

    Straw man. Pretty much everybody on the planet reliases that any company has the aim of making money."

    Oy! That isn't a strawman. Its a supposition that is pertinent to the discussion. In a conversation focussing on people complaining about not getting stuff for free, the profit making activities of a company are quite relevant.

  • bioreit #155 3 years ago

    @ Gearskin

    "With the sequel due inside of 6 months, we won't be seeing anything substantial added to the original. They'll get some tools out to the Mod community and leave the support to them. "

    Shut up. You're not only ignoring comments made by employees of Valve, you're using your own speculation and presenting it as irrefutable fact.

    If you're a typical example of one of the people criticising Valve for this, they really have nothing to worry about, because you must find it difficult to successfully open your front door before dying of starvation. Not that you could figure out how to open the shiny receptacles of food in your cupboards anyway - probably you resort to bashing them against your door in the vain hope that bringing them together will open both for you.

  • bioreit #156 3 years ago

    @ FogHeart

    You missed out

    "Valve actually release content for L4D, and far quicker than they ever did for TF2, too".

    Kind of makes a mockery of your argument that bit, doesn't it?

    Although I guess leaving out an actual integral prt of that debate does somewhat add weight to your (false) assertion...

  • IronCladChicken #157 3 years ago

    Why are the Console owners here whining about PC owners?
    No PS3/Xbox360 comparison tests for the PS3 owners to get excited over?
    No new sales figures getting the M$ boys angry with Nintendo again?

    Seems like the console owners here are far bigger douches than the PC owners comapining about Valve (I don't own L4D so don't care myself)

  • bad09 #158 3 years ago

    @ IronCladChicken

    Er.....L4D 1 & 2 are on 360 to...

  • Bremenacht #159 3 years ago

    Those people who say it should be DLC: Have you played it? Can you verify that it has DLC-levels of quality & quantity?

    Having said that, I'm fine with the moaning: it'll help keep Valve honest.

  • kangarootoo #160 3 years ago

    In hindsight, I'm not sure I made my own view as clear as I could.

    I got tens of hours of top knotch gameplay out of L4D... and still continue to do so. It was one of the best games of recent years - a reference book for quality design. And it was damn tense to boot - exactly the way any horror game should be.

    So for all those complaining about free stuff that apparently they should be getting but aren't... I have to ask "what exactly is it that is making you unhappy"?

    If you are enjoying playing L4D, then keep doing that. And if you don't want to buy this sequel, don't.

    Does anyone genuinely find their experience is suffering because of the absense of free DLC? This just feel to me like the same old "pile of sweets" analogy I have used so often before. And it goes like this.

    1. Child has bag of sweets.
    2. Child enjoys bag of sweets and has a big ol' grin on its face.
    3. Child discovers other child has larger bag of sweets.
    4. Child's own bag of sweets suddenly doesn't look so great. Smile disappears. Child cries and bawls.

    Personally, I don't give a f*ck what sweets anyone else is eating. I'll be quite happy playing L4D for a fair while yet, and when I've finally exhausted it (assuming Valve don't supply me with some DLC in the mean time, as they have SAID they will in short sentences of easy to understand words) I'll buy the sequel and be happy for another 30+ hours of top quality zombie shootin' fun.

  • DAN.E.B #161 3 years ago

    Yeah i can sort of understand some being a bit pissed off about all the promises of DLC and it did seem like a lifetime for valve to get the other two maps up and running on VS.
    however news of a full blown sequel coming this november is the best gaming news ive heard in a long time.
    it maybe much of the same but when the the games this good why change it?
    truth is more of the same is exactly what we all want
    UBISOFT is a prime example of a company who seems hell bent on changing all there biggest titles into something new and all you end up with is one dissapointment after another, SplinterCell is not as good as it once was! nor is Ghost Reacon.(third person WTF?)
    im all for pushing things forward ect but only when its better!
    bottom line is L4D is one of, if not the best game this gen if Valve wants to keep doing sequals of L4D well thats just fine with me!
    keep up the good work guys!

  • YourMessageHere #162 3 years ago

    These people complaining about broken DLC promises are somehow worse than console gamers complaining about broken DLC promises for what reason precisely (other than "All PC gamers are pirates" or other consummate bullshit, that is)?

    In a thread where mention of Valve's tendency to deliver games late and make promises they don't in the end deliver on is so very very rife, there seems a disproportionate amount of blind faith in them too. They're a very good firm and they consistently make excellent games, but it's wise to keep in mind that they are far from infalliable, especially when it comes to doing what they say they will do. I'd be amazed if this actually launches on time and/or has everything they claim it wll at launch. This protesting behaviour is a bit daft but, speaking as someone who's fallen foul of Valve's undelivered promises/claims/advertised features before (most notably the ongoing "games on steam will be cheaper than retail, because there's no middleman and no packaging costs and distribution is much cheaper!" one), it's somewhat understandable that people are pissed off at them.