L4D community rallies against sequel
15,000 boycott Valve's "money grab".
Over 15,000 Left 4 Dead fans have joined together on Steam to campaign against and boycott the release of Left 4 Dead 2.
They claim Valve has not fulfilled promises of extra content for L4D, and that the announced innards of L4D2 do "not warrant a standalone, fully-priced sequel".
Their Steam community page (picked up by vg247) requests that Valve "honour" its original commitment to ongoing periodic content for L4D, that the sequel become a free update or that existing L4D owners be given a discount.
Valve speaker Doug Lombardi addressed fan fears about Left 4 Dead 2 on Friday, stating that the company has not "closed the book" on new content and more support for L4D1. He even promised that "there's more content coming for Left 4 Dead in the fairly short term".
"I think the short answer is: trust us a little bit," he said.
Left 4 Dead 2 adds five new campaigns, four new characters, the city of New Orleans, melee weapons, reworked guns, new ammo, new bosses, gauntlet moments, a Wandering Witch, protected Infected, limb loss, a new unannounced game mode and more control for AI directors.
The sequel is due out on 17th November for PC and Xbox 360.
Head over to our E3 hands-on impressions of Left 4 Dead 2 to find out more.
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Comments (162) Latest comment 3 years ago
Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!
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L4D2 just became even more appealing \o/
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Get a grip. Get a job. Get some self respect.
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Valve "Well, weve made this but its actually more content than the first game....so were gonna charge for it"
PC Gamers "Screw you valve, you never really loved us. Your just trying to rape more money out of us!"
Valve "More money? You just want the moon on a fucking stick dont you, you jerks....your like the people who take more than one free sample of a product and complain when its shit!"
PC Gamers ".....your point is?"
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QFT
Once again the Internet is full off whining emo gamers. Why am I not surprised?
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I play on 360 and don't feel as though I'm being ripped off. I'm looking forward to the sequel and am excited rather than pissed off.
These wingers really need to get a life. Valve owe them nothing but do owe their own families a living.
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Just look at facebook to see how many thousands of people "join" a "protest" about new flavours of crisps etc...
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"QFT" ???
The differences between LFD1 and LFD2 seem no less significant than the differences between CoD4: MW and MW2 but no-ones complaining about that sequel.
Unfortunately, Valve have gone above and beyond with free content for their fanbase and a portion of that fanbase has gotten used to it and are now just throwing their toys out of the pram. I had to pinch myself everytime we booted up Counterstrike at Uni, I couldn't believe we were technically playing it for free.
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The sad thing is they probably already mostly have well paid jobs, their Comic book guy-style nerdrage and moral indignation just overrides any and all rational sentiments including 'don't be such a frigging geek'. Probably the same people that moan and whinge on the Blizzard forums every time there is a WoW patch and threaten to boycott because their rogue has been nerfed by 0.000001%, only to carry on playing 18 hours a day as usual.
If only these people put their energies into protesting against things that really mattered like human rights abuses or fighting racism or something instead of whining and crying on the internet about a poxy thirty quid video game, maybe this world would be a different looking place.
Utter, utter arseholes.
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That's not unique to Left 4 Dead. Nearly every Xbox and PS3 game launches for more than they do on PC. Licensing costs for console releases last I checked made the difference.
As for Left 4 Dead 2, I can't say I mind paying for a full game's worth of content if that's what I'm getting. I'd have no complaints if it were free, but I'm quite happy to pay for my entertainment, especially when they do a really good job with it.
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Valve "Well, weve made this but its actually more content than the first game....so were gonna charge for it"
They've started working on Left 4 Dead 2 one month after Left 4 Dead 1. They had the chance to split up the content and distribute it as additional content.
Even if L4D2 was a cheap cash-in, which it most likely won't t be, I think Valve have have done more than enough over the years to let it slide anyway.
So, your argument is, while EA is being mocked and belittled for cashing in on various franchises, when a respectable company does it, it's fine? That's rather illogical.
While the Internet is split into two camps, both sharing a large number of morons, I am actually curious to see how it will all turn out; what will Left 4 Dead 2 will become, and how successful will it be, regardless of this boycott.
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They forgot to say that it would be a sequel rather than TF2 style content though (speaking of which, I will love Valve forever for their TF2 support)
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Shock horror you have to pay for new games so that they can pay the people that make the games so that they make more games.
games!
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I've tried in the past bringing up the arguement of the EA IPs or CoD4/5 but no-one there listens. They're probably the same mentally retarded fuckbags who charge head on into a Tank, set themselves on fire with a molotov then get punted off the building.
Screw em. I'm gonna pay for L4D2 and enjoy it. Valve deserve it.
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Valve should launch a new game just on console and see what their mewling girlie response is then.
It's like fucking Starcraft 2: "Ew, a new lighting system We don't like change. Bwah!" Cunts.
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My point was that other Devs/Publishers churn out identikit sequels and yearly franchises like there's no tomoroow and they don't get this strong a reaction. Valve have a good reputation which I don't see them starting to throw away, so wouldn't it be better to wait till L4D2 is released and actually see how much new content it contains before going mental on the internet and boycotting things?
As I've said in other threads on the forum, I think part of the reason (not the whole reason) for this being a sequel and not free or payed for DLC comes down to the popularity of the Xbox 360 version of L4D. Some console owners still aren't connected to LIVE and aren't as savvy about DLC as PC owners, but primarily providing free DLC through Xbox LIVE is a giant pain in the ass for Valve. Going the retail option to bring the L4D2 content to console players is the easier option. For example where's the free updated ontent for the Xbox version of TF2... nowhere to be seen, I wonder why.
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the main arguement was that this was 'promised' by gabe newell the messiah himself, but then he also made a lot of other promises like regular HL2 episodes and such.
theres loads about this on the rps forums...but it still makes me ashamed to call my self a PC gamer when one of the major and most creative development teams is slammed for trying to make great games.
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And anyway, if Valve don't think it's good enough to release, they won't release it.
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Gah. Some people.
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OMG. We shall boycott Diablo 3 becuz the gfx aren't as dark and serious as they should be. GG Blizz, money-grabbing fan-forgetting traitors, FOAD!
/goes and buys D3 on release day after queuing outside shop for a week
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Do not give those people what they want, please.
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The fact is that they have said they're looking into how to make L4D2 a platform and as such if gamers are interested in importing L4D1 content into it.
In addition, if Valve say its too much stuff to add as DLC I trust them. They said the same to HL1:EP1 and EP2 and guess what.....you'll have to pay for EP3 too!!! (eventually!)This stuff costs money to develop, Valve are a business, they're raison d etre is to make money....and games. If they feel they could market a sequel this early on then fair play.
I for one will definately be buying it...getting me some FRYING PAN ZOMBIE KILLING ACTION (sorry over excitable there).
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First off. The original L4D has only four scenarios. Valve promised to add new ones and new content such as weapon upgrades and a better story arc etc. etc.
Instead they took that time to update the game and sell it as a sequel. The problem is that it isn't a sequel in any way shape or form. It's the same gameplay, the same enemies (all be it with three new skins in the form of the hazard suit, the half tank and whatever the last one was!). The new weapons don't feel any different from the old ones. You get the same (with different skins again) sub-machine gun, automatic rifle, sniper and pistols. You now also get a melee weapon too, though you could always use the guns as melee weapons anyway so why trade range for a different zombie death animation?
The long and short of it is that there is nothing in L4D2 that wasn't requested as a fix or update for L4D1 by the community some of you are bashing. Their ideas have been taken, in some cases wholesale, by Valve and used to try to sell them a full priced update. This coupled with the fact that if Valve had released the SDK. Then 90% of what Valve is offering in L4D2 would have already been added by the community anyway, is seen as a huge middle finger to their loyale fans.
A few new levels and new enemies is an add on pack, pure and simple. It in no was constitutes a whole new game!
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How long was TF2 delayed? HL2? The original HL?
YEARS!
And now Valve are able to develope, test and release a sequel within 12 months? Shows how much effort is really going in, no?
Not a lot!
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They've already harmed their reputation by announcing Left 4 Dead 2. The question is, are they going to redeem themselves by making Left 4 Dead 2 great game, and possibly offering some sort of compromise to Left 4 Dead owners? I know a lot of people here have Life (TM), and Job (TM), and they can throw away money at every game that strikes their fancy. But some people bought the game because they thought it'd have longevity. Primarily because Valve said it would be. It took them only two months to break their promise.
And why the surprise considering this reaction? EA is a whore, even though they've been trying to change that for the past months, so few react to it brashly because it's common. When a respectable company does it, there are two types of reactions: people finding it okay, because it's a respectable company and they can trust them, and people being completely outraged that the company they trusted in made the wrong turn.
Another reason why everyone's so worked about it is that every single idea in Left 4 Dead 2 - every single one, I kid you not - is taken from the community. Now, doing fanservice by including one gameplay element or two they've begged for is quite fine and admirable, but to build a game on community's ideas? Also, Left 4 Dead 2 will have multiple pathways, even if they were excluded from Left 4 Dead 1 because they do not make a Left 4 Dead game. Ironic, huh?
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penhalion, I suggest you do some informed reading on the full feature list for L4D2, and consider what sort of work and expense goes into making an 'add on pack' that is bigger and richer than the original game. Otherwise you look like just another gibbering moron.
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You've played it then? AMAZING! OK, you're the only one allowed to moan. Oh no, wait, you haven't played it at all, you're basing your unfounded whinges on something that NOBODY had played yet, and is not actually going to be released for months. Now I remember.
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penhalion
"The problem is that it isn't a sequel in any way shape or form. It's the same gameplay, the same enemies (all be it with three new skins in the form of the hazard suit, the half tank and whatever the last one was!). The new weapons don't feel any different from the old ones. You get the same (with different skins again) sub-machine gun, automatic rifle, sniper and pistols. You now also get a melee weapon too, though you could always use the guns as melee weapons anyway so why trade range for a different zombie death animation?
I thought you were describing CoD there for a moment. What you said can be applied to hundreds of FPS' and their sequels, Halo is another example that fits what you said perfectly.
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As for complaining about Valve taking cues from the community... would it better appeal to your principles if Valve ignored the community and purposefully didn't implement good ideas the community has 'begged' for? Is that really your position? Is that what you want to say here? Think it through.
If you took some time and care over your posts this sort of silliness could be avoided.
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Are some of you really that cheap?
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....and then priced it the same as a full price sequel
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But five campaigns (25 chapters) with extensive new art assets (models, textures) should be free!
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QFT = Quoted for Truth.... that means I agree with you
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A: Six months.
Bonus trivia question: how many months did it take for the first free content update to arrive for Left 4 Dead?
A: Five months.
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I liked that fact Yoss, that's the kind of thing I like to know. I'll regail everyone I play No Mercy with of that fact
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10 years online and I still don't know half the abbreviations. I only learned what IIRC was yesterday
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Oh please, mystic sir, please tell me how dost thou gaze into yon future so bright and clear?
Serioussly dude, you've completely written off Valve making more L4D1 content merely because they've announced the sequel.
You've also oh-so-conveniently ignored two major points in your rant (although, to do so would have exposed the flaws in your argument, to be fair):
1. Valve have come out and said that the announcement of L4D2 != no more content for L4D1. In fact, they have stipulated that they most definitely have NOT abandoned the first game.
2. L4D2 has more in it that new weapons and campaigns - the AI Director's control of the scenery, for example.
Well done you - you've played a pre-release of a game still almost 6 months away. It's not even finished yet you're already writing it off like it's a full-blown retail release.
Muppet. (would have used stronger words, but the Internet filter at work would pick them out)
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Gold Rush update (April 2008): 1 new map, 3 upgrades for doctor, 1 new gametype.
Pyro update (June 2008): 2 new maps picked from the community (0 Valve maps), 3 pyro upgrades, no new gametypes.
Heavy update (August 2008): 3 new Valve maps, 3 upgrades for heavy, 1 new gametype.
Scout update (February 2009): 3 new maps, 3 scout upgrades, 0 new gametypes.
Spy and Sniper update (May 2009): 3 new maps, 6 upgrades, 1 new gametype.
Now, I'll be charitable and include the community-made maps in the following comparison: that's 12 maps in 18+ months. I'll be even more charitable and say a TF2 arena map is even half the size, or half as complex, as a full-blooded Left 4 Dead chapter (hint: it isn't). If the Left 4 Dead team worked at the same rate as the TF2 team at churning out free content for right-minded PC zealots everywhere, you would get an entire campaign's worth of content inside 18 months. Remember I'm being charitable here, and also ignoring the fact that Left 4 Dead maps require additional content TF2 maps don't, like the writing and recording of new survivor dialogue). That's also presuming they released the chapters one at a time, so you didn't have to wait that long to get some new levels. So... 18 months, for one new campaign.
Nah, I think I'll pay for five campaigns arriving inside a year, thanks.
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/needs more graphs and tables though...
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Why isn't Valve working on fucking HL2 EPISODE 3 and maybe the new PORTAL???
I like L4D, it's fun, but it's not the so-called "EPISODC" half-life experience, now is it?
GET TO WORK ON THE REAL STUFF VALVE!
It wasn't time for a new L4D. It reeks of makin' a buck! Seriously.
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Just noticed this little tidbit - "why trade range for a different zombie death animation?"
Zombie-games really aren't your thing, are they? Dispatching zombies via a multitude of different, grisly methods is the whole reason d'etre of the genre! Imagine how dull and lifeless Dead Rising would have been if Capcom had said "We already have one melee weapon with the baseball bat. Do we really need any more?"
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I have one little question.
Why isn't Valve working on fucking HL2 EPISODE 3 and maybe the new PORTAL???
I like L4D, it's fun, but it's not the so-called "EPISODC" half-life experience, now is it?
GET TO WORK ON THE REAL STUFF VALVE!
It wasn't time for a new L4D. It reeks of makin' a buck! Seriously.
How do you know they aren't working on HL2 EP3?? they will be!! they have more teams than the HL team ffs, the people who made L4D were brought into Valve as the game was a mod at first. They have people working on TF2 and different people on L4D, Portal again wasn't Valve it as another mod team they brought into Valve.
Why are people so dumb ?
I for one think this a fair price to pay for new maps and players and infected i mean it will be a year apart how many games have the same thing only updated each year? CoD for one as WOW was last year and MW2 is really another CoD game, but people aren't moaning?? come on get a grip.
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What I do appreciate is a more general sense of betrayal, because every one of these complainers copy-pastes that same Gabe interview snippet where he talks about supporting L4D post-launch in the same way they have TF2, and it appears now that simply isn't going to happen. Leaving aside for just a minute that to date their support for L4D has been more timely and more thorough than their support for TF2 was in the same post-launch window (ahem)... Valve do genuinely seem to have changed direction on this.
But then I guess it's sort of like when they kept pushing back the release date for Half-Life. And Half-Life 2. And Episode 1. And Episode 2. And the way they promised new Portal levels (forgot that one, didn't ya!). And I guess it took them nine years to get Team Fortress 2 out (original announce year was 1998). Or how about when they promised a Black Box alongside Orange Box, so people wouldn't have to rebuy games they already had... no wait, they changed their minds there too (and oh boy, the complaints that followed...). Not even gonna touch all the times they 'failed' the CS community.
I mean, I guess you could argue that Left 4 Dead 2 represents an unprecedented change in plans for Valve, that their rebooting L4D inside a year amounts to a broken promise that is entirely out of character...
...but you've have to be pretty fuckin' dumb.
The only thing that's unprecedented here is Valve getting a quality sequel to a quality title out in a timely fashion. That's some real end of the world shit right there! Petition it!
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People are mental.
I mean, truly truly bat-shit bananas. This whole thing makes me vehemently shake my head from side-to-side .
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HL2: Episode 3 should be free too. In fact Half-Life 2 should've been free, after all they were just trying to make a quick buck on the back of HL1....
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I just hope they have some integration worked out between the two titles so they don't divide the L4D audience into two small groups rather than one large community.
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This is a genuine concern for me too.
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As for L4D2, there's a huge amount of content being included and in no way can Valve justify giving it away for free! I'll certainly be in the queue to purchase and pre-load as soon as it becomes available.
And to all those monkey spanking freeloaders who complain because it takes them months to talk their mummy into buying a game for them - get a life and go play with an Action Man instead!
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So wanting to be heard for not getting what you were told or paid for is not wrong, wrong is being a sheep like you are asking them to.. Yeah get the L4D 2 and nothing wrong with it comming out, but if they thought ( keyword since apparently L4D1 isnt left back ) that they wouldnt get updates on what they bought knowing they were going to, then yeah they have every right to complain about it. Instead of you ruinning the efforts of ppl that react to things they consider bullshit you should help out on things like those. Don't think you were all raised to be letting bullshit go along unnoticed cause i dont. Geta life and learn how to react to things like they do. Apparently PC gamers have a life and know how to do so when you dont. Nuf said
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http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-valve -not-closing-the-book-on-l4d
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I started FPSing on Wolfenstein 3D, before graduating to Doom, then Duke Nukem, then Quake (and Wolfenstein 3D and AVP on Jaguar), SIN, Unreal, Shogo: Mobile Armor Division, Project IGI, Kingpin: Life of Crime, Heretic, Quake II, Hexen, Unreal Tournament, Quake III: Arena, Half-Life, Counterstrike, Natural Selection and that's only the ones I can remember off the top of my head.
THEN I bought Halo on console and haven't really looked back to the PC since. Do I qualify as being able to comment on these stupid idiots, then? Seeing as I've probably played more FPS than the bottom 10% of that group combined.
They're a bunch of muppets through and through - the latent Fascist in me wishes that Valve would say "Fine. You won't ever get anything from us at all then, seeing as you'll just whine that it can't shine your shoes while feeding the dog!"
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Now, you see, what I'm criticising is the silly reaction to something that amounts to little more than a title announcement.
There are about six gameplay videos floating around and some other sparse details, like incendiary bullets, hazmat zombies, melee weapons, and AI controlled level layouts. That's it. We just don't know if it'll be integrated with the first game, we don't know if it'll be part of a package, we don't know how fundamentally different or not it may be to the first game. We've been teased with a few details, and that's it. How about we wait for a bit more information, maybe a bit closer to the release date, and then everyone can have a rational stance on it?
To get all worked up over something not clearly defined, when you have absolutely no other details, is more than ridiculous, it's the height of idiocy.
Especially since Valve have clearly said that L4D will continue to be expanded upon. The only issue I can see here is that the community may be divided. If L4D2 takes the original concept, runs with it, and improves upon it, I don't see why that is that much of a deal.
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Valve are making a sequel to a much-loved game that has more content than the original, and they've been uncharacteristically quick about it. To be frank: where's the damn problem? Also, comparisons between EA and Valve seem pretty harsh considering EA's historical dedication to flogging dead horses.
L4D has received well over 100 hours of play from me, and I already know the sequel will be the same. For 40 quid, that's a bargain.
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Can understand them though.
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1. When you pay for L4D you are paying for the game as advertised, nothing more. You are effectively buying a license to install and play that game on your PC. If you buy it thinking that you are buying shares in it, that you own it, or have any investment or control in its development and evolution post-launch, you are foolish. This is one of the worst elements of PC zealotry, and it's the cause of complaints about Diablo II being "too bright" or, as someone else mentioned, your rogue in WoW getting nerfed. You do not own the game, and you do not have a say in what the developers choose to do with it. You are not buying futures here, you are buying an advertised product, albeit one that is subject to change. If you consider yourself so much more enlightened than your console 'kiddy' counterparts, why is it you seemingly fail to understand your end user license agreement?
2. Yes, Gabe Newell made a (fairly throwaway) remark that they would support L4D as they have TF2. Fans of L4D on PC have since interpreted that remark as a categorical promise. Never mind that to date Valve have kept that 'promise' (releasing free content for L4D faster than they did for TF2), it is ridiculous to even consider this one interview snippet as some sort of blood oath sworn between developer and consumer. If you purchased the game solely on the basis that Gabe once said in an interview that they are planning to release content and updates for it (and remember, they have released content and updates for it, and have since said they may not be finished doing so), then I would argue the basis for that purchase is so tenuous that your ~$50 should be written off as a needlessly risky investment.
3. Yes, they have ever right to complain about what they perceive to be a broken promise, no matter how silly such complaints might be; similarly, I have every right to make fun of them for doing so.
P.S. My first FPS games were Wolfenstein 3D and Ultima Underworld, and for all of the 90s I was a devout owner of a gaming PC. You do not get to lecture me about first person games... ever.
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Yes they did break some promises as it was released light on content with valve saying we wiill keep it updated for a while. But its such a good game and with so much replayability its not much paying £30 for an improved and larger game.
Yosserian your comparision to TF2 saying they would have added only 1 new campaign in 18 months is a bit silly as apart from maps they have introduced new weapons with completly new characteristics and worked out all the balancing issues that comes with it. A set of L4D maps where the director does the work for you would be simple in comparison.
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Dammit, I very much want to take up the obvious gauntlet and lecture you about FPS's, but your argument is correct and to do so would be churlish.
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The director isn't magic, chum. You have to tell him where he can spawn zombies, and how, and make sure that those zombies have a route to every place the survivors can get. You have to devise ways for the special infected to get around the map. You have to structure and balance crescendo events, weapon and health spawns, tank and witch spawns, all the while worrying about traditionally singleplayer concerns like pacing and difficulty curves. Make no mistake: L4D levels are far larger and far more complicated than the average TF2 arena map. They require much, much more work, especially on the balancing side. I was being really, really charitable with the comparison.
I didn't bother going into TF2's class and weapon updates, because surely everyone here knows that L4D2 contains more than twenty new pieces of weaponry and equipment, as well as three new special infected, new director AI, deformable zombies, and plenty more I won't take the time to list. I was talking solely about the complexity of L4D levels and making a comparison with the TF2 release schedule because I didn't think the rest of it needed to be spelled out. Guess I was wrong.
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YEARS!
And now Valve are able to develope, test and release a sequel within 12 months? Shows how much effort is really going in, no?
Not a lot!
TF2, HL2 and 1 were Valve developed games.
Turtle Rock Studios is behind Left 4 Dead 1 and 2.
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I for one welcome L4D2, I have played the first (on both platforms) for an obscene amount of hours.
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/readies petition
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I fear that left4dead 1 may see very little custom content if at all. Shame really. I had a play around with the left4dead sdk, making stuff and getting it running in game is incredibly easy and intuitive. There's alot of potential in there.
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Dont get me wrong i am not complaining that L4D2 should be released as free content, i am just saying that comparing all the content released for free on TF2 to one campaign of L4D is so far off the mark its untrue.
My only other gripe is they didnt get the SDK out before announcing L4D2. I know the content will be brought across but serious map makers are going to wait for all the new content first.
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[link url=http://anna-ghislaine.blogspot.com/2007/11/pooey-game s.html
]http://an na-ghislaine.blogspot.com/2007/...[/link]
Seems I am not the only one who remembers it for this reason.
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"Could this be anything to do with pressure from M$ not wanting Valve to release more free updates on the 360?"
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Someone start one.
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The "best" part about this is though that the reason why they make a number 2 in the series is because of the console crowd, not the PC crowd. They are easier to sell to.
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It's not solely an issue of size, it's an issue of complexity. A TF2 level by design is simpler, flatter, more cartoon-y, with less extraneous detail than the average building in L4D. There's simply far fewer brushes in a TF2 level than in a L4D one.
And yes, I have seen the videos of the Director populating other Source levels and spawning hordes, but it's a far, far cry from levels which are actually designed and built for that purpose, which work as advertised, and which are balanced and paced properly. It's the difference between people getting the portal gun to work in HL2 levels, and the properly finished and polished Portal levels. L4D gameplay requires that when not in a safe room you can always be reached by the horde (and even today there are blind spots in some of the existing L4D maps, including the exploits people found for survival). Fine-tuning that, making sure the specials always have access to you, have places they can spawn freely, and can move around the levels with ladders, secret rooms etc., and generally pacing and balancing the environments, makes it a far trickier business. L4D levels are basically singleplayer levels, with a lot of the same concerns, as opposed to multiplayer arenas. And when you factor in story elements and everything else (mainly writing, acting, and recording dialogue -- all of which costs, and has to be paid for -- but also littering the levels with the sort of detail we saw in L4D with grafitti on safe-room walls etc.)... it's a longer and more complex process.
Also, re: game modes being added in TF2, L4D2 will also have Survival levels (presumably for each of its crescendo events, same as L4D1), and another game mode yet to be announced.
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We've all seen the gameplay vids of this sequel... same engine, same gameplay, subtle alterations that you won't even notice.
And lets not forget that L4D was a full priced game, took YEARS to make... and shipped with about 4 hours of content, all told.
That's sad.
Valve puts too much faith in their community to do the work. L4D2 is arguably the second half of the original game we never got.
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They already announced that anything created using the SDK will work happily in L4D2, although obviously people won't be able to use all the Director 2.0 stuff like dynamic weather yet.
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I've played those '4 hours' for maybe ~200 hours, and had fun 90% of the time. I still play those '4 hours', over and over, with friends, enjoying myself. Thank God they didn't put more 'content' in there, or I don't know how I'd find the time to sleep or eat.
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This is the simple truth. If L4D was just a PC game there's no way a sequel would even be considered yet.
The argument that EA and Activision do yearly updates is completely missing the point. Valve is not EA, and while some of the criticism is clearly over the top, I believe this is the main reason why people are disappointed with Valve.
PC gamers just don't want Valve to "do an Epic" and become another console-centric developer churning out sequels for the Christmas market, and are hoping L4D isn't a sign of things to come.
Most console gamers don't realise just how special Valve are to the PC community, and therefore don't realise why we hold Valve to a higher standard than other developers.
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Most PC gamers don't realise that Valve are a business and are here to make money to pay their staff so they can pay their mortgages etc and get new money to make new games and content for older games at the end of the day there in this business to make money if they did it for the love of the games only you wouldn't see any extra content at all.
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I'm a PC gamer, so cut that shit out. Valve are special to me, always have been and always will be. I get it. But L4D is special to me and I'm looking forward to L4D2.
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That argument would make sense if I hadn't bought the original Half-Life on the day it was released, and didn't own every Valve game except L4D on PC. Hell, I've played Half-Life 2 five times across three platforms. I understand how special Valve are, because they're my favourite developer. I still think the announcement of L4D2 as a full-priced game released a year after the original is awesome. In a way I am part of the PC community, just not a part you want to acknowledge when making inane arguments about why shit should be free.
Still doesn't disguise the fact that it's not packing much content at all. Regardless of how much fun you personally find it.
Oh my God, listen to yourself. You're telling me I should care more about the objective 'content' a game has over how much actual genuine fun I personally get out of that game?! In what world is this a rational way to think about the value you are getting from games?
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5 new campaigns all that new vs. fun i cant wait! and if it costs me another £5 so be it.
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Straw man. Pretty much everybody on the planet reliases that any company has the aim of making money.
Assumptions people that want L4D2 are CONSOLE GAMERS who JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND/That argument would make sense if I hadn't bought the original Half-Life on the day it was released
It was a generalisation sure, but I'm willing to bet that most of the people calling out the"morons, whiners, cheap-asses" etc. are console gamers, and those on the petition are PC gamers. There is clearly a difference in opinion between the two groups as a whole, and I don't see why people get personally insulted when that is pointed out. Obviously this doesn't mean that every PC owner is disgusted with Valve's behaviour.
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You're willing to bet that the people petitioning on Steam are PC gamers? That's a real leap of faith there, buck.
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I'm sure you knew the point I was making, but chose a patronising snide remark instead of addressing it.
Fits the theme of the thread at least I suppose - insults and dramatic tearing down of arguments that aren't being made in the first place.
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I was worried that we'd have to wait another couple of years - thank God they've really pulled out all the stops. That's a good effort right there.
And, if anything, Valve has saved me lots of money. Rather than go out of an evening, I've opted to stay in with L4D.
Valve: Game developer and Personal Finance Assistant.
Is there anything they can't do?
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I also believe painting L4D2 as an 'add on pack' or 'expansion pack' or 'DLC' is ridiculous given the scope of the content they have announced (much of which has not yet been shown). And let's not forget Valve have charged for expansion packs in the past, albeit not at full price. If you don't recognise that L4D2 is worth more than e.g. Opposing Force, then I really don't know what to say to you.
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That's as unexpected as, oooh.... as everyone who signs a petition boycotting a sequel like this going out and buying it on day of release.
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Silly billies.
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With respect, that's naff logic. Like complaining that Tetris has no content because there's only that one table to play on.
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On quite a few points there I agree with you. I would certainly agree that was has been proposed for L4D2 would be ridiculous as free new content. Even after the incredible support for TF2 that would have overly-generous.
But what about throwing us a bone here? One of those 5 new campaigns could have come to L4D1, with the rest going to the sequel? Or maybe bring one of those new weapons in?
Rightly or wrongly, many (PC) gamers bought the game on idea that there would be more content forthcoming - I genuinely thought it seemed a little light on content when I bought it for me (and two friends), but seeing as every Valve multiplayer game has had additional content released at a later date, and the head of the company said that would be also true this time around, I think it's a little unfair to be called an ungrateful, whining moron who probably pirated the game anyway just because I took that at face value.
This is why I say some people just don't get it, because if you have any experience of Valve's previous games and MO then you would have to admit there was some surprise when you heard that a sequel was coming instead of that content. Even if you don't agree with the point of view you should be able to see why some might take it the wrong way.
As to your last point, I suspect that despite being an expansion pack, there was more genuinely new content and plain hard work gone into Blue Shift than there is in L4D2. But of course I haven't seen the game yet and I suspect Valve still hacve a few things up their sleeve, so I couldn't really say yet
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"PC gamers just don't want Valve to "do an Epic" and become another console-centric developer churning out sequels for the Christmas market, and are hoping L4D isn't a sign of things to come.
Most console gamers don't realise just how special Valve are to the PC community, and therefore don't realise why we hold Valve to a higher standard than other developers. "
Well, maybe the thieving ghets that are quite a hefty percentage of PC gamers should accept a modicum of responsibility for all those games they pirate, forcing devs like Epic to look more towards console gamers as a means of ensuring monetary reward for their hard efforts.
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Perhaps they should.
That doesn't really make those that pay for their games feel any better though, nor does it make the move from respected and innovative developer to lowest common denominator middleware and shovelware peddler any more welcome.
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I mean, I'm broke but £40 is hardly the end of the frigging world is it?
I wish these cheese dicks would just shurrup and realise just how truly wonderful this is going to be.
I mean if Jesus reappeared tomorrow, I wouldn't give a crap compared to L4D2!
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"Rightly or wrongly, many (PC) gamers bought the game on idea that there would be more content forthcoming"
And which part of Doug Lombardi's statement that " "It's definitely not the case that we're closing the book on L4D and saying, 'Next time you get anything is when the sequel comes out'" " cancels out that assumption by PC gamers?
Or maybe you and all the others are coveniently ignoring that assertion.
I just don't get why the announcement of a sequel seems to automatically mean to PC gamers that the original is being abandoned, especially when, as Yossarian so eloquently proved, L4D got content far quicker than TF2.
Nothing better to bitch and whine about, I guess...
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The TF2 updates don't really need big changes to improve the game, L4D2 does, and the comments of 'same engine' needs to be looked at as it clearly is a new engine Director 2.0 in't something that can be slapped on to the orginal, we are talking some serius AI here and all those variables etc can't be taken lightly - if they did just 'slap it on' for free most would be complaing how buggy it is.
The only issue I truly have with L4D2 was it was accounced too soon in L4D's lifecycle they could have at least accounced it on L4D's 1st birthday - instead they've shot themselfs in the foot as for the next chunck of months they wont get any new users to L4D as L4D2 would be deemed 'better' to buy.
What really would sort this out easily is players with L4D get 'unlocks' in L4D2 based on their progress in L4D that wouldn't be hard to do as they can just use the achevment system to do that... Everyone wins then.
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The argument that EA and Activision do yearly updates is completely missing the point. Valve is not EA, and while some of the criticism is clearly over the top, I believe this is the main reason why people are disappointed with Valve.
PC gamers just don't want Valve to "do an Epic" and become another console-centric developer churning out sequels for the Christmas market, and are hoping L4D isn't a sign of things to come.
Most console gamers don't realise just how special Valve are to the PC community, and therefore don't realise why we hold Valve to a higher standard than other developers.
Yes, they're so precious to you that you jump a bloody bandwagon slating them when they've given you so much for free. Have some trust in them ffs!
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Quote me where I have slated them. I don't think you can.
I'm just saying that there is some middle ground and both sides have some valid arguments, but as usual such a position cannot be reasonably held on EG. Everything is black and white, and everyone is either a c**t or a hero.
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I'm just saying that there is some middle ground and both sides have some valid arguments, but as usual such a position cannot be reasonably held on EG. Everything is black and white, and everyone is either a c**t or a hero.
Apologies for tarring you with the same brush! I've had two days of reading the Valve bashing by some and it got to me. But I do take you up on the Epic comment because they were churning out year-on-year sequels on the PC long before Gears of War came along (UT 2003 and 04 come to mind -but they too offer a load of content for nothing). That and I don't like you implying it's the fault of the consoles! If it were wouldn't we have Half Life Ep 3 by now? Or how about a full blown retail Portal 2?
And you give the people who are upset about L4D 2 too much credit. Have you read some of the things they're upset about? They're no different to the divs who complained about Diablo III being too colourful.
If Valve don't keep to their L4D promise (there's a YouTube of it knocking about) then I'll understand the rage, but some of the crap I've read makes me wish the people who complained about L4D 2 being so bright it didn't fit in with L4D do get shafted deep and hard.
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So you're saying that because you found 4 hours worth of game entertaining EVERYONE should find 4 hours worth of game entertaining?
By any standard L4D lacks content.
Single player is non-existent.
Multiplayer has 4 "scenarios", a limited weapon set, 4 player skins and 5 enemy types.
Big Whoop!
It's hardly anything in this day and age.
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I have it on PC, via STEAM.
I haven't sunk that many hours into it, if I'm honest. Not the main game anyway. I tired VERY quickly of repeating the campaigns. I've actually spent more time with the content produced by fans. Some of it is very good.
I especially like the solo mod, where you play it alone against zombies that have been slowed down a bit.
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It's the same old crap. Every time. With not enough variation to keep my interest.
I'm just gonna assume the existing game was a beta, and this, if it lives up to the promises, is the full game.
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Brilliant logic. I guess people who aren't directly affected by the topic aren't allowed an opinion then? Is this just on videogames, or everything in life?
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I care because I put money down.
Aren't you the same twonk who sounded off against Bioshock 2 multiplayer and Infamous recently?
Ignored.
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"because I expected it would get further support from Valve"
You fail at basic reading and comprehension. Doug Lombardi was quoted on this very site promising that the announcement of L4D2 did NOT consitute an abandonment of L4D1 in terms of new content.
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People just don't like change, even when they don't actually know anything about the change and fail to consider whether or not it might just be a hell of a lot better. Which it will, because Valve rarely let us down.
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With the sequel due inside of 6 months, we won't be seeing anything substantial added to the original. They'll get some tools out to the Mod community and leave the support to them.
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Just recently there was a good talk about digital downloads, through things like Steam. If released only on that kind of a platform you can cut alot of costs with packaging, shipping, etc. And I have no doubt, at all, that Valve has gotten their monies worth of L4D ten times over.
As for L4D2, I'm just hoping for a map where you'll have to wade through water (New Orleans maybe? (watch the movie Hard Rain and imagine it full of infected)) - and I almost wish for a tower where I could just sit for hours and hours sniping down infected. Call it 'Clear the town of infected' game mode. And I just wish Valve would bring us locations from around the world. Like Paris, Venice or somewhere in the Middle-East. With known landmarks. Battle the infected whilst trying to get to the top of one of the pyramids in Giza!
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Please read my comment again, I never implied that at all. I'm a console gamer AND a PC gamer, I bought the first game on both platforms because I had different friends playing on either.
It's OTHER people in this comment thread that seem to assume everyone in favour of L4D2 is a console gamer, you should direct your post at them, rather than me. I'm just tired of the attitude people have towards others because of platform (whether it's console warzzzz or PC fanboys slagging console users).
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The mod community has done a lot with L4D
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Without wishing another 10 people to jump on me, I think it's genuinely because of the console factor. Releasing that much content as a digital download is difficult when there are numerous hoops that need to be jumped through and you can't rely on people even having a hard drive in the first place.
This is what I meant when I say this wouldn't be a sequel if it was just a PC game, it's not a fanboy argument or "slagging console users", it's a valid problem for the situation that Valve find themselves in.
There's no way Valve wanted a repeat of the TF2 debacle, and this is just the fairest way to ensure both platforms have equal access to the same content.
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Fucking smacktards and their bloody petitions - I bet they don't vote.
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I dont agree with the L4D expansion, which it is, but i will vote by not purchasing it. Especially considering I got well screwed with the price of L4D on steam.
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for what it's worth, I'd like to place myself in the pro-L4D2 camp.
/waves "Frying pans FTW" banner excitedly and holds out her hard-earned cash in readiness
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...besides, the game was probably bought for them by their parents, the little shits!
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If snooty PC owners don't want a sequel to one of the best of last year don't waste your money on 'em Valve give it to 360 and why not love the PS3 guys some more, I'm sure many of them would LOVE L4D (1 and 2). Just give PC the content you already said will still come for L4D1 and leave the sequel on the consoles!
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1) They release L4D
2) Immediately after Valve staff tell the press that it will be expanded with new maps, monsters, movies and weapons - "Like TF2" they said.
3) L4D players start to fill their Steam forum with ideas for maps, monsters, movies and weapons.
4) One month after release, Valve do their brainstorming session and decide to put all new maps, movies, monsters and weapons into a sequel.
5) L4D fans continue to submit their ideas. Valve have publicly stated that they read the forum and take on board what's said, so the fans know this is where to put down their wishlists. Meanwhile Valve are using the forum for ideas that they'll put into the sequel, while the fans are submitting ideas for a game they think they already have.
6) Valve never tell the L4D fans about the sequel that they've been supplying ideas for- it's sprung on them at E3.
Now, Valve have done nothing they aren't allowed to do. Just like all those MPs who claimed on crazy expenses, they didn't do anything illegal, it just feels rudeand bad mannered. Not immoral, it's not that bad, and it's their game etc etc...but they have said one thing and then done another, which is very unlike them, they have run contrary to their philosophy where they say they won't nickel and dime existing customers for small updates - instead they just lump them together in a premium BIG update, which is quite unlike them too.
We don't feel cheated on money - I still play most nights but I must say the four campaigns feel VERY routine by now, and I have no more L4D stories to tell - I can't say I haven't had my money's worth. But when I consider everything TF2 got, L4D feels like the younger son who watches his naughtier elder brother get showered with gifts from doting aunts and uncles while we get just enough to keep quiet.
Yes, I am a middle child
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I mean really guys, please don't assume that because one party uses one platform, they're all tarred with the same brush.
Now personally, I can understand all the complaints that've been brought up. I've followed the arguments and suggestions on the Steam forums since release, I've given a couple of my own too these past few months.
I also remember really wishing that I could play more campaigns, and didn't really like survival mode.
Now when the next game comes out, I'll probably order it anyway, I mean who am I kidding, I love this game.
But even the more hardcore console fans amongst you have to at least see why people are pissed.
Fogheart's comment really sums it up. Valve aren't doing anything illegal or wrong. It just feels a little rude and badly thought out.
IMO, Valve should really quickly come up with their update for L4D1 or at least announce their update plans to keep the wolves at bay. Because all that everyone's pissed off about is due to their perceived inequality when they hear about all this great news for L4D2 with no bone for L4D1. This information discrepency makes people think that L4D2 is getting all the glory and with nothing concrete announced for L4D1 anymore, they make the assumption that whatever they'll get is of far lower value.
To be fair to the anti camp though, I can't really see them releasing much more than Matchmaker 2.0 and the official SDK for L4D1. To release any new weapons or special infected would take attention away from L4D2 and make it seem less special. At best, they might introduce the new Charger infected and different ammo types, but I highly doubt it if it's going to be a highlight of their sequel.
Personally, just a new campaign for versus would be perfect and would quell any problems that I may have. I don't need any new special infected for now, just some new campaigns.
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Its a bit criminal that I will have to buy 4 copies for each member of my family so we can all play at once though...
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From watching the developer commentry and press releases, I understood that one of the key reasons that valve created the AI director was that it freed up the teams recources to concentrate on level design and art assets. The AI can then simply popultate their finished levels, control pace/tension, lighting/sound etc. automatically without much extra input from the developer.
This streamlined development process must surely be quicker/easier and more productive than the more traditional way? - so surely it's no surprise that they've come up enough content for a sequel already??
Personally, I'm excited about more L4D and during these economic times I don't think its a surprise that they want to charge for it it either.......
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"The long and short of it is that there is nothing in L4D2 that wasn't requested as a fix or update for L4D1 by the community some of you are bashing."
So bloody what. Requesting a feature doesn't give you a right to it for free. Or are you suggesting that Valve "pinched" the ideas of the community and should give the results back for free? Ideas are two a penny, its making the actual game content that takes time and money.
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"Most PC gamers don't realise that Valve are a business and are here to make money
Straw man. Pretty much everybody on the planet reliases that any company has the aim of making money."
Oy! That isn't a strawman. Its a supposition that is pertinent to the discussion. In a conversation focussing on people complaining about not getting stuff for free, the profit making activities of a company are quite relevant.
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"With the sequel due inside of 6 months, we won't be seeing anything substantial added to the original. They'll get some tools out to the Mod community and leave the support to them. "
Shut up. You're not only ignoring comments made by employees of Valve, you're using your own speculation and presenting it as irrefutable fact.
If you're a typical example of one of the people criticising Valve for this, they really have nothing to worry about, because you must find it difficult to successfully open your front door before dying of starvation. Not that you could figure out how to open the shiny receptacles of food in your cupboards anyway - probably you resort to bashing them against your door in the vain hope that bringing them together will open both for you.
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You missed out
"Valve actually release content for L4D, and far quicker than they ever did for TF2, too".
Kind of makes a mockery of your argument that bit, doesn't it?
Although I guess leaving out an actual integral prt of that debate does somewhat add weight to your (false) assertion...
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No PS3/Xbox360 comparison tests for the PS3 owners to get excited over?
No new sales figures getting the M$ boys angry with Nintendo again?
Seems like the console owners here are far bigger douches than the PC owners comapining about Valve (I don't own L4D so don't care myself)
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Er.....L4D 1 & 2 are on 360 to...
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Having said that, I'm fine with the moaning: it'll help keep Valve honest.
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I got tens of hours of top knotch gameplay out of L4D... and still continue to do so. It was one of the best games of recent years - a reference book for quality design. And it was damn tense to boot - exactly the way any horror game should be.
So for all those complaining about free stuff that apparently they should be getting but aren't... I have to ask "what exactly is it that is making you unhappy"?
If you are enjoying playing L4D, then keep doing that. And if you don't want to buy this sequel, don't.
Does anyone genuinely find their experience is suffering because of the absense of free DLC? This just feel to me like the same old "pile of sweets" analogy I have used so often before. And it goes like this.
1. Child has bag of sweets.
2. Child enjoys bag of sweets and has a big ol' grin on its face.
3. Child discovers other child has larger bag of sweets.
4. Child's own bag of sweets suddenly doesn't look so great. Smile disappears. Child cries and bawls.
Personally, I don't give a f*ck what sweets anyone else is eating. I'll be quite happy playing L4D for a fair while yet, and when I've finally exhausted it (assuming Valve don't supply me with some DLC in the mean time, as they have SAID they will in short sentences of easy to understand words) I'll buy the sequel and be happy for another 30+ hours of top quality zombie shootin' fun.
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however news of a full blown sequel coming this november is the best gaming news ive heard in a long time.
it maybe much of the same but when the the games this good why change it?
truth is more of the same is exactly what we all want
UBISOFT is a prime example of a company who seems hell bent on changing all there biggest titles into something new and all you end up with is one dissapointment after another, SplinterCell is not as good as it once was! nor is Ghost Reacon.(third person WTF?)
im all for pushing things forward ect but only when its better!
bottom line is L4D is one of, if not the best game this gen if Valve wants to keep doing sequals of L4D well thats just fine with me!
keep up the good work guys!
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In a thread where mention of Valve's tendency to deliver games late and make promises they don't in the end deliver on is so very very rife, there seems a disproportionate amount of blind faith in them too. They're a very good firm and they consistently make excellent games, but it's wise to keep in mind that they are far from infalliable, especially when it comes to doing what they say they will do. I'd be amazed if this actually launches on time and/or has everything they claim it wll at launch. This protesting behaviour is a bit daft but, speaking as someone who's fallen foul of Valve's undelivered promises/claims/advertised features before (most notably the ongoing "games on steam will be cheaper than retail, because there's no middleman and no packaging costs and distribution is much cheaper!" one), it's somewhat understandable that people are pissed off at them.