Kojima admits MGS confuses him too News

now that he mentions so, seems to be the logical thing to do.

writers do that as well...

First thing I do after outlining a new setting for something I'm writing or creating is to establish a basic timeline for everything. That way I know I won't end up contradicting myself; I'm a bugger for forgetting small details.

0_o

So basically he's admitting he makes all that waffle up as he goes along :P

This guy is seriously up his own backside,as a newcomer to the MGS series i found MGS4 to be overblown,unwelcoming and pretentious.I was bored silly by the cut scenes(an hour, really?) and i am confused by peoples love of the series.the gameplay is nothing special(although the graphics are great) as i like to be in control of the character as much as possible.HLIFE2/BIOSHOCK are games which can tell a great story without taking the player out of the immersion/full control of the game

"Kojima told us that for Metal Gear Solid 4, he built a complete timeline for each character, which catalogued their involvement in the series and also when key historical events occurred, such as the growing conflict between the USA and Soviet Union."

Hehe, I bet it looked like that scene from Heroes where someone was trying to establish all the time lines and meetings. Just a room full of coloured string :D

@donnie080208

I to was a newbie to the series and I concur. I couldn't get my head around the hollywood blockbuster look with b-movie acting!

The rest of us have no hope then!

@donnie
I'd say most of the fans got hooked up with the first mgs on the ps1. at that time gameplay was new/different/revolutionary, and the hollywood type cinematics were kind of a first for videogames. mind you, the cutscenes were nowhere near the absurdity of the more recent ones, and by far shorter. codec calls where invasive even then though. anyway, gamers liked it. t'was a time where CDs prompted videogames to be the more movie-like possible.
then the second one came... over the top and all. fans decided to go along with it.
I have yet to play mgs4, but as I understand it, it really is the wrongest spot to pick up the series, being the "wrap up episode" it is. you lack the critical attachment to the characters that's needed.

oh, by the way, that being said, I totally agree with kojima being stuck up (and I hate when people worship him, as he'd be able to produce games without a team, that never gets any credit).
trouble is, I seem to enjoy the games he supervises.

MGS4 was a tricky one - I've played and finished all the games previous to it, but they've slowly been getting harder and harder to get into. MGS3 took a very deliberate effort before it finally rewarded me with actual gameplay. When I got to MGS4 the wall just became too steep. I couldn't be bothered to sit through the waffle any more. It's a shame because the end of MGS3 was actually genuinely moving, but MGS4 seems to hate giving players control.

I tried MGS4. I knew it wasn't looking good when I started skipping cutscenes within the first 2 minutes (that guy needs to learn the art of script editing - saying the same thing in 5 different dramatic ways is just amateur and sucks all the drama out of what is being said, I've a screen writer friend who would bite off his own tongue if he saw the way HK writes scripts).

Then I got to the gameplay and I lasted as far as one checkpoint reload.

I know there are a lot of fans of the series, and I played right through 1 and 2 (tried 3, bailed early on), but I really feel that if MGS4 came out today as a new game rather than a continuation of the series, it would be slated as beautiful looking but terribly designed.

I agree with the very long cut scenes been annoying but they tell vital parts of the story lol. I really like the MGS series. Would love to see another Acid game though.

@KANGAROOTOO Agree with your point about mgs4 coming out to day and surviving on its own merits, without the "backup"of previous installments.imo the game would be heavily marked down by critics as self indulgent and lacking any user friendly gameplay.if it wasnt for the series big name or kojima, mgs4 would never have got its budget or off the drawing board.the upcoming west orientated MGS RISING looks like he may of realised this himself.

Metal Gear as a series is all about stealth and tactics.
Its not an ideal choice for people with little patience or short attention spans.

This I think covers pretty much every complaint in this thread.

And honestly, if you haven't figured out by now whether you like Kojima's style or not - more fool you for being disappointed.

Every Metal Gear Solid title has received high critical praise and has sold very well for the obvious reason that they are very good games.

You might disagree, but evidently there are millions of people (critics included) that hold that opinion.

Unfortunately he's crafted a storyline of such lunatic complexity, implausibility and indulgence that the only way to redeem it would be: "and then Snake woke up and it was all a dream". Which I wouldn't put past him, in fact.

@GreyBeard

"Its not an ideal choice for people with little patience or short attention spans"

So true
................

@kangarootoo

"I've a screen writer friend who would bite off his own tongue if he saw the way HK writes scripts"

What's your "friend" done?

@GreyBeard

"Metal Gear as a series is all about stealth and tactics"

I think I have to (perhaps unsurprisingly) disagree. There are plenty of games out there that are much better examples of stealth gameplay. The stealth gameplay of MGS is pretty basic by modern standards.


What MGS is really about (i.e. what it does that few other games do) is epic stories and characters (put a positive or negative spin on the word epic, as you see fit).

If MGS didn't have its bonkers cutscenes and "save the world" story lines, nobody would give its rather sub-par stealth gameplay a second look. The gameplay mechanics are playing second fiddle to what is otherwise a superbly rendered and animated action movie.


I'm a huge fan of stealth games, but I'm not really a fan of MGS. And I don't believe I am short on patience or an attention span. The games I consider to be the height of the stealth and tactics genre are games like Thief and Hitman. Compared to these examples, the stealth and tactical content of MGS is barely tangible.

@KrissAkabusi

Why on earth did you put the word friend in quotes? Are you suggesting I made him up?

Second, what has it got to do with anything what he has written. Are you suggesting that somebody needs to have written a Hollywood blockbuster before they can identify the flaws in HK's script writing?


Here is a question for you, just to cut through the chaff. Do you think HK writes good scripts? Scripts that would stand up outside of the games business? Scripts that would get picked up for film, stage or TV?

@kangarootoo

Lot of words, not a lot of answer though. What has your friend worked on?

@KrissAkabusi

How can I make this clearer. I am ignoring your question because it is irrelevant.

You are attempting to conduct Ad Hominem, suggesting that if my friend had not worked on a world scale, his critisisms of the writing of others is not valid. This is utter nonsense.

Would you approach a music teacher at a university and tell him that any comment he might make about the work of U2 is irrelevant, because he himself has not had a hit record?

Do you understand?

"Every Metal Gear Solid title has received high critical praise and has sold very well for the obvious reason that they are very good games."

I just want to focus everyone's attention on the fact that being a "good game" does not automatically assume having "good gameplay". there are many titles that end up being more than the sum of their parts for some weird voodoo reason (3 out of 5 games in the legacy of kain series are among my favourites only for the setting, story, characters... while the gameplay is just an ordeal to suffer through in order to get to the next cutscene. the other two [the soul reaver ones] I find are also pleasant to play).
this is neither an attack on the mgs series, nor on greybeard.
just... let us be mindful when thinking things through.

Just because MGS4 doesn't force you to play in a stealth mode , doesn't mean that's not what its basically about!

The game gives you a wide variety of tools and weapons to get through the story, but the ultimate goal is to complete the mission without being seen by the enemy and when a confrontation is forced you should resolve it without the use of lethal force.

The game hammers this point home repeatedly in the dialogue and cut-scenes (not to mention the way the "emblem" awards are handed out) so its a very difficult thing to miss!

@Kangarootoo

I'm sorry dude, but by your own admission you only played the game up to the first checkpoint reload and were skipping the cut-scenes from 2 minutes in - That doesn't sound to me like you've given the game a fair shake and certainly doesn't encourage me to believe that your opinion is a fully informed one.

MGS4 plays very differently according to the difficulty setting chosen and the weapons loadout you have at hand. It genuinely is the sort of game that rewards repeat play because of the ludicrous range of weapons and gadgets you eventually have at your disposal.

Although the story/level-design of the game makes it a very "channelled" experience, the key message is that as a gamer you are encouraged to try different tactics and methods. I can understand that approach may not to be everyone's taste, but its not an unreasonable design philosophy.

i think what kangorootoo means put in a more crude way, is that without the hype and production values of a big budget series, mgs4 would have sunk without a trace.i agree completely

@kangarootoo

I understand that you are avoiding the question.

HK is a top entertainer. But we want new franchises from him, preferably cyberpunk-oriented. Enough of MGS already!

MGS 4 had a terrible storyline. If you think differently you are an idiot. This is not an insult it is fact.

Gameplay wasn't too hot either and the boss battles were disappointingly mundane. They got it right with MGS3 and got it all wrong with MGS4.

@KrissAkabusi

Clearly you don't understand. Let me try again.

I am not avoiding your question. I am point blank dismissing your question as an irrelevant diversion tactic.

You may think that by pressing the issue you are somehow scoring internet points over me. By all means, maintain that illusion if it makes you feel good. But as homework, go and look up Ad Hominem.


Clearly you think that the dialogue in MGS is high quality stuff. I simply do not. I believe that said dialogue would not get very far outside of the games business. If you disagree with that, well all power to you.

time line is easy.

everything in mgs happens. . . two years ago

@kangarootoo

Is it really that hard to say what your friend has worked on?

who the hell minused my innocent little mgs joke?

hope you are happy living without a HEART you bastard

: (

@KrissAkabusi

Sweet Jesus. It is not relevant. Of course I could say what he had worked on, but I could equally say what kind of tea he prefers. If I answer your the question, I will be condoning its presence in the discussion. Its not happening, and you really need to understand why.

What would you do if I told you what he had worked on? Respond by saying "well he isn't as famous as HK, so he wouldn't be allowed to say HK's scripts are crap"?

You haven't looked at Ad Hominem yet have you. Please do so, and everything will be come clear. I am not facilitating your use of such a tactic, so get used to it dude. Seriously, go and look it up. In fact, let me help you out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

@kangarootoo

Presumptuous. Look that one up.

@kangarootoo: so what tea does your scriptwriter friend prefer, then?

kangarootoo might or might not have his reasons not to divulge the mysterious work, but I don't understand this fixation, this purely internet obsession with "pic or it didn't happen".

I agree that you don't need to be a scrip writing god to judge someone else's work, if backed up with convincing reasoning.
the general "well, you do better if you can" defense holds no weight. at all.
firstly, maybe you COULD do better, but lack the resources to do so. and pitching your idea with no background is even harder than pitching your idea with a well established background that nobody cares about anymore, and you're trying to escape.
secondly, you do not need to be able to do better, if you have enough experience with other material in order to elaborate a good comparison line.

for instance, I believe "the count of monte cristo" to be rubbish. yes, yes, it has a nice story of betrayal and revenge, some interesting characters, ecc. but the writing is diluted and repetitive beyond belief, and character interactions would be considered ludicrous even in theater. I liked it, really, it's just poorly written.
and how am I daring to say so? me, whom cannot write two cohesive chapters for the life of me?
I've read enough books to have a basis of comparison on what I believe to be good and bad literature. of course each author has his own unique writing, and I have my preferences, but that's taken into account. it's poorly written. it's objectively and technically poorly written. I still like it. you are not forbidden to like it either, even if it's not perfect.

eeeerr. all this rant to say. yeah. whatever work that friend did it's irrelevant.
but that also was an irrelevant argument to begin with. you don't need friends with experience in script writing to back your claims.

finally on topic: I can't say anything about mgs4's script quality as I haven't played it yet. however I'm fairly sure that if you're missing background, you're missing out on the script. and that might be another kind of flaw all together, but alas... those are sequels for you.

Despite the large amount that moan about MGS4 I actually thought it was by far the best in the series, a return to form after the two overated PS2 instalements, it had a great story that actual made sense of all the bo-llarks that happened in the 2 awful PS2 games and its one of the few games that really used the PS3's power to produce gameplay and enviroments that wouldn't have been possible on a lesser machine. But what do I know eh?

Seriously, I don't mind the games but I have to switch off during the story part of it. It is just ludicrous. And it reminds me of what my mother used to tell us as children about telling a lie and then having to tell a bigger lie to cover that lie and so on. That whole crapola for not being able to pick up and use guns from people you overpowered or killed turned into a whole idiotic storyline. One so insane I'd be too embarrassed to pitch it. Of course Kojima didn't need to pitch it. He is "Big Boss" and everyone just does what he wants. I operate under the suspension of disbelief in games and movies, but the MG series is just too insulting.

To be honest I didn't completely understand the story of MGS4. I got the gist of it, and thought the characters and their relationships were pretty well constructed. All in all, it was great fun to play, and was pure entertainment. That being said, I'm no new comer.

I'll definitely play it again, and I'm still playing it a lot online.

I've never played it, until recently it's been a Playstation exclusive no?

@donnie080208 as a vet of the Metal Gear games I found MGS4 to be complete crap, full of pointless speeches and cut scenes that explain stuff that could of been explained in the half the time with a bit of script editing.
I know the games are known for the cut scenes but theres a limit, plus the game wasn't even that fun...Considering MGS4 is the reason I wanted a PS3 I felt kinda...Bummed!

Still thanks to Killzone 2 and Uncharted I found solice in the fact that MGS4 isn't the only game worth having a PS3 for.

raion,

Counte of Monte Cristo just needed a good editor for the middle bits. still an awesome book and despite its 1000 page length, probably shorter than MGS4.

Alexander Dumas > Kojima

@KrissAkabusi

Presumptious?

Are you just planning on firing off words at me? What the f*ck has presumption got to do with anything? What exactly, in the name of Homer Simpson, have I PRESUMED?

Or did "presumptious" just seem like a big word that you felt would make you look clever if you used it in a sentence? Perhaps you start by looking up the word "relevant".

Clearly you don't even know what we are disagreeing about, so I'm going to let this one slide. Please feel free to have the last word if it makes you feel special.


@raion

So somebody else understand what I am saying. Thankyou for bringing independant sanity.


@Golgo

I've honestly never asked him. Its probably earl grey or something like that.