Sony's Phil Harrison on PlayStation 3

By Rob Fahey Published 19 May, 2005

"Everything in the demos was real-time."

Everyone expected PlayStation 3 to be quite impressive, but many people were shocked at just how much of a leap ahead of current-gen technology was showcased by Sony at its events here in Los Angeles on Monday and Tuesday. The reaction has, however, been mixed; those who saw the real-time demos in person have been left jaws agape, while those who didn't are generally highly sceptical of Sony's claims.

It's perhaps unsurprising that it turned out like this - after all, Sony could be accused of acting like the boy who cried wolf in the last generation, when PlayStation 2 and its much-hyped Emotion Engine turned out to be rather less impressive than Ken Kutaragi's rhetoric and a number of pre-rendered demonstrations might have suggested.

If PS3 really is a subterfuge - and to be honest, we don't believe for a moment that it is - then Phil Harrison would be one of the chief architects of the conspiracy. The head of Sony's development efforts in Europe, Harrison stands behind many of the most impressive demos and game trailers seen so far on PS3. We caught up with him at E3 to find out more about the new console's hardware, the software we've seen so far - and to ask the burning question about how much of it was real-time.

'Sony's Phil Harrison on PlayStation 3' Screenshot 1

Eurogamer: One question on the lips of many people at the moment: how much of what we saw in the PlayStation 3 demos was actually running in real-time?

Phil Harrison: Everything in the demos was real-time.

Eurogamer: And what about the game footage clips?

Phil Harrison: Not all of that - in fact, none of it was real-time because it was all running off video. If you make a presentation to two and a half thousand people, you're going to put some of it on video just to be on the safe side.

I've been asked this question a lot. The way we put those videos together, everything was done to specification. Everything was done to PS3 spec. Virtually everything used in-game assets; some things were rendered.

Eurogamer: How representative of what we're actually going to be seeing in PS3 games were those videos?

Phil Harrison: I think very. I think depending on the game, different games took a different approach to their way of expressing what the games are like - but clearly, something like MotorStorm uses more cinematic, replay-like cameras than you would ever enjoy in-game. So that makes a big difference... But everything is done to spec.

Eurogamer: A fairly significant number of the games we saw - including many of the most impressive ones - were from European studios. Is this indicative of SCEE perhaps focusing more on preparing for next-gen than other territories?

Phil Harrison: I just think we had great stuff to show! Yeah, I'm really proud of the way the European content has been received, and I'm delighted with the response to Heavenly Sword, MotorStorm and Killzone in particular.

But even things like The Getaway technical test - and I was at pains to point out that this was not Getaway PS3, this was what happens when a team rolls off a game and we start getting them thinking about what is their vision for taking that technology and scaling it up. I think it was a good A to B comparison, because people know what Getaway looks like on PS2, and then they were able to ramp that up on to PS3 - albeit on very early prototype hardware, so it was a bit painful along the way for them! I thought that was a great example.

'Sony's Phil Harrison on PlayStation 3' Screenshot 2

Eurogamer: So The Getaway was one of the things that was running on real hardware?

Phil Harrison: Yeah, good example - I mean, you could see actually, the way that those cameras worked. That zoom-in camera was done in real-time to capture the kind of video-like footage that we had.

Eurogamer: Some of the developers who worked on demos for the launch have said that even those aren't running on hardware approaching the full power of the final unit - so what percentage of the full performance was that running on?

Phil Harrison: It's really hard to say, because as technology gets more and more complicated, there's no concept of the "perfect" engine. We used to say on 16-bit that a game used 90 per cent of the machine's power, or Gran Turismo uses, you know, 94 per cent of PlayStation 1's power... There's no concept of the perfect game engine that uses everything. So it's hard to say.

Eurogamer: We're thinking more in terms of the actual hardware - the clock speed of the chips, and so on.

Phil Harrison: It varies between developers, because we've got different variants of the hardware with different performance characteristics. Obviously as you get closer and closer to production hardware - and typically, the final devkit that you get is production hardware, near as damn it finished - as you get closer and closer, you're using more and more like the final silicon, which will be more and more like the final clock speed.

So it only gets better from here on in - which is pretty astonishing, to think about the implications of that actually. But faster, more powerful - where you use that power is a different issue.

Eurogamer: Was most of what we saw really just showing off the graphics capabilities - stretching the RSX graphics part rather than the Cell chip? The assumption is that Cell is there for complex physics and AI...

Phil Harrison: You're right; obviously Cell allows you to do complex collisions, physics, dynamics, simulations, all of those things. Though, the Getaway demo was a good example of how you can have a living city brought to life as a result. Although it was pretty graphics, most of that power was actually Cell-based.

The Doc Ock head - the Alfred Molina head - is actually more of a Cell demo than it is a graphics demo, because we're calculating hugely complicated light sources in real-time on the Cell, even to the point where we calculate the angle at which light enters the skin, the way that the light is then coloured by your blood, and the way that it is then reflected back out. It's something called transmission. Skin is hugely complicated - if I put my finger over a light, for example, you can see that the light is coming through my skin. We were simulating that - emulating, simulating, kind of a fine line - we were simulating that on the Doc Ock head demo.

'Sony's Phil Harrison on PlayStation 3' Screenshot 3

Eurogamer: So that's really pushing the Cell rather than the graphics chipset?

Phil Harrison: Yeah. Those are really hardcore maths problems which the Cell is really good at solving.

Eurogamer: It's not just the RSX that drives the graphical quality, then - the Cell can also really be used to improve the graphics.

Phil Harrison: Well, I'll give you a couple of other examples. The terrain-rendering demo that was done by STI, which is the people who developed the Cell, doesn't use the graphics chip at all. That 3D landscape was generated in real-time from two input data sources and a software renderer running on the Cell created the final image. All that it does is output as a bitmap straight to the video hardware - it doesn't even create a single polygon, there's no concept of a polygon in that demo.

Eurogamer: How long did the developers of the various launch demos have their hands on the PS3 hardware for?

Phil Harrison: It varies from two to probably five months. We've had Cell for a bit longer than we've had the graphics chip - at least, a working graphics chip. We've had our devkits for just over five months now.

Eurogamer: Something the PS2 was widely criticised for - and which Microsoft in particular has played up very much - is being extremely hard to develop for. How does PS3 compare in that respect?

Phil Harrison: It always made me chuckle, that comment from Microsoft, because yeah, it's true, but it didn't stop us having thousands of games and 80 per cent market share. Having said that, there is an element of truth to it - PlayStation 2's architecture was more challenging for your average developer to get their heads around. Some were capable of getting their heads around it, some weren't.

'Sony's Phil Harrison on PlayStation 3' Screenshot 4

PlayStation 3, I think, is going to be cheaper to develop for than the corresponding period of PS2 development. I know that's a fairly contentious statement to make, but there's a very good reason for that. When we announced the collaboration with NVIDIA, we just talked about them making a chip - actually, they don't make anything, they're a designer, and the RSX contains an NVIDIA-designed part, which gives us fantastic GPU capabilities. But what it also gives us, and this is actually the most important bit of it, is all the toolchain and CG pipeline that comes with it, which is a very well understood development pipeline in the PC community - and, yes, in the Xbox community, frankly.

So all of that pipeline of tools and technology and plug-ins comes straight across to PlayStation 3. Plus, on the Cell side of things, IBM brings a lot of expertise and know-how to the table. Also, as you know, the PS2's EE had two microprogrammable devices, VU0 and VU1 - which were incredibly fast, incredibly powerful chips that were very difficult to program for because of their very specialist nature and the programming skills required.

Within PlayStation 3, the Cell chip, although it has a number of components inside it, they're all general-purpose CPUs. They can be programmed at a much much higher level.

Eurogamer: So we're going to see people writing for those in C, rather than having to mess around with VU code?

Phil Harrison: Absolutely. Messing around with VU code... Yeah, it's true. It's not for the faint-hearted, for sure.

Eurogamer: In terms of your devkits - obviously some people have them already, so what's the schedule going forward for delivering them to developers?

Phil Harrison: Well, clearly Monday and Tuesday have been our big coming-out parties. We're now public, so we can now be a lot more open with all of our partners about what we're doing. You'll see a lot more devkits rolling out - but exact schedules, who they're going to and what they do is not something I can discuss here.

Eurogamer: You're going to start rolling them out more rapidly now, though?

Phil Harrison: Yeah, for sure. We've been making them for some time, but obviously they're not in abundant supply at the moment.

Eurogamer: In terms of the PS3 console itself... Why does it have three network ports on the back?

Phil Harrison: Because it can be a hub, rather than just being a terminal at the end of a network. Also, we want to be able to have a Gigabit port for an IP camera. So one of the ports is an 'in', and two of them are 'through'. It can be a server as well as a terminal.

'Sony's Phil Harrison on PlayStation 3' Screenshot 5

Eurogamer: You showed demonstrations of the console running multiple applications across the two HDMI outputs - is that something which is actually built into the system's operating systems, or do games have to support it specifically?

Phil Harrison: Depending on the features that you exploit, some of it's handled by the OS, some of it will be handled by the applications. I should also explain that although yes, there are two HDMI outputs, you don't have to have only high-def devices attached to PlayStation 3 - there's also a standard PlayStation AV Multi-Out connector. So one of them could be an HD output, and one of them could be an AV Multi going to the TV.

Eurogamer: Taking the demonstration of the video chat windows in one screen while a game was being played in another - is that something we can expect as a standard OS feature, independent of the game?

Phil Harrison: The Cell can run multiple operating systems, so yes, you could do that. Now, we don't have the application up and running yet, and the resource management isn't quite final - but the purpose of that presentation was to show what is possible. Exactly how that gets unlocked is still being worked on.

Eurogamer: Online is one area where, without a doubt, Microsoft did get it rather more right than Sony last generation - Xbox Live being a much more comprehensive worldwide service than what Sony rolled out...

Phil Harrison: But more people play online games on a PlayStation 2 than on any other game console.

Eurogamer: Right, but then a lot more people own PlayStation 2s than any other game console.

Phil Harrison: Yeah, but it is something that is worth pointing out - although, personally I have a great deal of respect for what Microsoft has done with Live, and I think they've got a lot of it right.

Eurogamer: Can we expect to see Sony really working to catch up in that department on PS3?

Phil Harrison: I think that philosophically, PlayStation 2's online offering is an add-on to the hardware and software and operating system. In PlayStation 3, online is part of the DNA of the machine - in fact, the Cell processor itself is designed from the ground up to be connected to a broadband network.

So from switch on, day one of the machine, network functionality will pervade every aspect of the machine. We talked a little bit about that at the conference, but there's a lot more detail to go into about some of the really cool things - like, if your PS3 is switched on at home, it can be a media server to your PSP on the other side of the planet. Now that is incredibly cool. I could sit here in LA and navigate the data which is stored on my PS3, and download music and other data off my PS3, onto my PSP.

Eurogamer: Phil Harrison, thank you very much for your time.

Phil Harrison: Thank you.

Picture of Rob.

About Rob Fahey

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Comments (292) Latest comment 6 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Gurgeh #1 7 years ago

    Actually he said the opposite

    "Phil Harrison: Not all of that - in fact, none of it was real-time because it was all running off video"

    Now I know what you mean, but this sloppiness isn't helping your case.

    Besides which, interviewing the Sony guy, what do you expect him to say? "Yes, the stuff was rendered but it looks the way we expect the game to run, once the game has been coded and the hardware finalised" would be closer to the facts.

  • V0oD0o #2 7 years ago

    He had me in the palm of his hand until "Phil Harrison: But more people play online games on a PlayStation 2 than on any other game console."

    Bah. Twat

  • drumbaby #3 7 years ago

    Certainly cleared up that the PS3 is an absolute monster of a powerful console. An absolute monster.

  • marilena #4 7 years ago

    :)

    It's a good interview, though. Clear questions on what was pre-rendered and what not, gave the man the chance to tell us how the games will really perform. If he lied or not, that's not Eurogamer's problem at all.

  • l_p_4_7 #5 7 years ago

    If the online side of PS3 is in the consoles "DNA" then why has it not been explained further like X360 Live?

  • drumbaby #6 7 years ago

    So it's been cleared up then:

    Phil Harrison: Everything in the demos was real-time.

    Eurogamer: And what about the game footage clips?

    Phil Harrison: Not all of that - in fact, none of it was real-time because it was all running off video. If you make a presentation to two and a half thousand people, you're going to put some of it on video just to be on the safe side.

    I've been asked this question a lot. The way we put those videos together, everything was done to specification. Everything was done to PS3 spec. Virtually everything used in-game assets; some things were rendered.

    There. Cleared up, in what I just quoted there. Unless the guy is lying through his teeth, then it's all cleared up. At last. Finito.

    Move along. Nothing more to see here. :)

  • GrayFox #7 7 years ago

    \Waits until bloodthirsty Sony haters (95% of EG forum) come and start burning crosses and human like puppets in front of EG building. ;D

  • Feanor #8 7 years ago

    So the tech demos were real-time. I haven't see anybody on the Internet claim they weren't, but thanks for the info anyway.

    Again, the Unreal 3 demo on the PS3 isn't any more impressive than Unreal 3 stuff that's been shown for the Xbox 360.
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 16:17

  • ali-uk #9 7 years ago

    I like this guy.

  • drumbaby #10 7 years ago

    "the Unreal 3 demo on the PS3 isn't any more
    impressive than Unreal 3 stuff that's been shown for the
    Xbox 360. "

    But it's better looking than the Killzone 2 stuff, and that's a render!

  • Kraftwurm #11 7 years ago

    I wonder how it comes that the same people that seem to love m$ and xbox do also realize that EG is the best games site on the planet.
    I mean: why are they here in the first place?

  • Feanor #12 7 years ago

    Well, I think Killzone 2 on the PS3 looks clearly better graphically than Gears of War on the Xbox 360, a game running on the Unreal 3 engine. But one is an animation and the other is a game well into devleopment.

    @Kraftwurm: I can only speak for myself, but I don't love any games company, I own all 3 consoles and I have many more PS2 games than Xbox games, and I'm not sure which next-gen console(s) I will buy or when I will buy them. The last two games I finished were Devil May Cry 3 and Xenosaga 2, so anyone who thinks I'm pro-M$ and anti $ony (haha) is delusional.
    Edited by 2 at 19/05/05 @ 16:24

  • drumbaby #13 7 years ago

    "I particularly like this bit though:

    "Eurogamer: How representative of what we're actually going
    to be seeing in PS3 games were those videos?

    Phil Harrison: I think very.""

    Me too. PS3 games are going to look the bollocks then.

  • indotoonster #14 7 years ago

    "One question on the lips of many people at the moment..."

    EG, surely you should've asked him: "Will it lead us along the One True Path to the Zen of Gaming?" :-P

  • Carrybagma #15 7 years ago

    EG: "Can you provide a straight answer to a straight question?"
    PH: "It's really hard to say. It varies - depending."

    Ohhh I can smell it from here. New console; same old hype.
    He even borrowed the 'translucent skin' crap from Nvidia! What cheek!

  • #16 7 years ago

    " like, if your PS3 is switched on at home, it can be a media server to your PSP on the other side of the planet. "

    EG Staff, please ask Sony 9and MS) what file formats their 'media center' portions will allow, and what If any) DRM will be placed onto it.

    thanks! (And a great insight too!)

  • #17 7 years ago

    Wasp... you mean NinZENdo right?

  • Tonka #18 7 years ago

    Nintendough

  • Monsta #19 7 years ago

    Why did you have to end the interview there.

    He had just started on the interesting stuff. All this discussion as to whether the demo's were really time whilst you were talking to a man obviously willing to talk abotu PSP/PS3 connectivity over the internet.

    Get the man back here now.

    The discussion regarding fanboyism was great for while but can we leave it now (fanboys can continue being fanboys if they want) and find out more about these consoles and their features. we'll see games soon enough and until they come out we won;t really know.

  • KnickKnack #20 7 years ago

    Any Sony Fanboys actually read the article properly? Phil has just said that none of the stuff was real-time except for the tech demos (well, if the tech demos weren't running on the real tech, it wouldn't be a tech demo would it?) and rather ambigously stated that "some of it was rendered"

    Well I'd like to wager a bet, and I'd love Eurogamer to take me up on this.

    I bet that both Killzone and MotorStorm look *NOWHERE* near as lovely looking as the rendered footage that was shown. I really can't wait to see everyones reactions when real-time footage of these games come out. ala PS2

    Some people obviously don't live and learn, even respected game journos like eurogamer staff.

  • Dizzy #21 7 years ago

    A lot of funny stuff in there...

    I am not even going to comment on some of the PR bullshit in there.

    BUT I must say... a good interview EG... this is more what we expected from you dudes.

  • HenryMancini #22 7 years ago

    By Christ, I can't believe your selective quotation, yet again. Despite everything we said... you're still at it!

    Complaint this time? "Everything in the demos was real-time" on the home page, top and centre. In the article, "some things were rendered." Do you _really|_ think that's fair & balanced? Really? You don't expect every little fanboy to latch onto that and spend hours claiming that everything they saw "on ps3 was real!" when in fact, all they care about are the game demo's. Which weren't. Which were, in fact "rendered".

    www.joystiq.com is pretty good, I find.

  • Feanor #23 7 years ago

    "Feanor, what's your position on Nintyendo?"

    Hehe, Just another company who want my money. My wife has a GBA SP, and will no doubt get a DS as soon as Nintendogs come out after seeing it at Nintendo's E3 press conference. I bought a black GC just to play RE 4 and it was worth every penny. I thought I hated the GC controller but it works great for RE 4, and REmake.

    I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Japanese call their own currency "en" not "yen" like the West does, so NintENdo doesn't even need an extra letter.
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 16:39

  • HenryMancini #24 7 years ago

    "I wonder how it comes that the same people that seem to love
    m$ and xbox do also realize that EG is the best games site
    on the planet.
    I mean: why are they here in the first place? "

    Because I USED to love EG. Thought it was great. It was my home page. Will still pop in to read Kristen's stuff, but much respect for the site overall down the pan, sadly. There ya go.

    Really, www.joystiq.com is _very_ good.

  • ChocNut #25 7 years ago

    Oh man - the PSP media interoperability sounds exciting!

  • drumbaby #26 7 years ago

    "I think it would help if people sit down in front of
    3DMark2005 in order to guage what things will actually look
    like on the PS3. "

    Why? None of that looks as good as Unreal 3.0 tech' so it'd not be particularly representative.

  • Derblington #27 7 years ago

    For all the shit you've got of late (and I know I've put my 10p into it) that was an excellent article. Good job Shinji.

  • groovy #28 7 years ago

    EG : youve brilliantly avoided sequelitis in a good fifth of the games you announced, how so?

    PH: er...

    searing stuff EG, paxo would be proud

  • mash the x button #29 7 years ago

    Let's wait and see...

  • pjmaybe #30 7 years ago

    I can smell something.

    It's not sheep, no....it's not cow...

    It's BULL!

    Peej

  • myutwo33 #31 7 years ago

    sounds good

  • tonynibbles #32 7 years ago

    Oh. My. God.

    "The terrain-rendering demo that was done by STI, which is the people who developed the Cell, doesn't use the graphics chip at all. That 3D landscape was generated in real-time from two input data sources and a software renderer running on the Cell created the final image. All that it does is output as a bitmap straight to the video hardware - it doesn't even create a single polygon, there's no concept of a polygon in that demo."

    Er, the implications of that are, unbelievable...
    CELL using processing power from idle CELL devices over networks to render game graphics?

  • Beano #33 7 years ago

    The EG interview is a missed oppotunity IMO... why not ask real questions like :

    1) What about PS3 online service ? (yes the hardware is online enabled, but that's a given!)

    2) The about the harddrive - included or optional, size, release, features, etc. ?

  • stephenchan #34 7 years ago

    HenryMancini, the thing about joystiq.com is that they are primarily a news site, they link to other people's articles and regurgiate press releases. Eurogamer is run by actual journalist with a modicum of self thought and expression. That is why I will continue to visit eurogamer long into the future. and anyway, Europe Rocks!!!! Never mind the Americans.

  • Nige #35 7 years ago

    Someone needs to grab J Allard and say - "Your games look crap, how representative of your hardware is this?" and "What do you think of Sony's showing, and their hardware claims".

    Someone also needs to point out that Gotham renders are not big, or clever... Show us some number crunching at work. If the machine comes out in 6 months, and Gotham is a launch title, there has to be something worth seeing.

    Eurogamer - any word from MS on there being an X05 this year? It'd be a good opportunity for them to pick their metaphorical teeth up off the floor. Because it sounds like they're allowing Sony to own the entire show without even attempting to pull back some dignity.

  • Putty-Man #36 7 years ago

    We're still short on actual details of teh PS3s online capabilty.

    Not the fault of EG I know.

    And do more people actually play PS2 online more than Live???

  • lennon #37 7 years ago

    Shockingly you didnt ask him if Europe were going to get shafted on launch price and dates in comparison to the rest of the world. Eurogamer phhh.

  • Nikanoru #38 7 years ago

    If it's supposed to be so insanely powerful, then how come some games look comparatively despicable when put next to others? (I'm looking at you, Eyedentify. "startling detail" my ass)

    I too think this is a load of PR bull. It's PS2 alllll over.

    I hope I'm wrong though. Oh, I really do.

    (edit: gotta learn to type)
    Edited by 2 at 19/05/05 @ 17:12

  • drumbaby #39 7 years ago

    "And do more people actually play PS2 online more than
    Live??? "

    I think one of the SOCOM games holds the current record for most online at any given time.

  • drumbaby #40 7 years ago

    "If it's supposed to be so insanely powerful, then how come
    some games looks comparatively despicable compared to the
    rest? "

    Same has to be asked of Xbox 360 running the distinctly average (for something supposedly so powerful) looking DOA4. To me it looks like a buffed up Xbox 1 game.

  • drumbaby #41 7 years ago

    "Someone needs to grab J Allard and say - "Your games look
    crap, how representative of your hardware is this?" "

    They already have. Apparently the Xbox 360 stuff was running on alpha kits, not finalised 360s, which were (allegedly) but a 3rd of the final new Xbox's power.

  • lennon #42 7 years ago

    Thats true but then to me Ghost Recon 3 looks as good as the tech demo of killzone and that is real game footage.

    More people do play PS2 online thats a fact. However it is a terrible service that I have never got working properly. Again something more questions should be being asked about.

  • Nikanoru #43 7 years ago

    drumbaby: Well, in the case of DOA4, there's not much else you can do with that kind of rendered plastic barbiedoll style. The quality pretty much maxed out with DOA3, that's probably why you don't see much of a difference. I do agree with the point you're making though.
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 17:16

  • symmetry #44 7 years ago

    Good interview, well done EG.

    1 thing, when he says things are running on "Cell", just remember that there are different types of cell processor, are they refering to the version that will be in the PS3 or a more powerful version? Because that is one thing that is never made clear.

  • twinbee #45 7 years ago

    " Shockingly you didnt ask him if Europe were going to get
    shafted on launch price and dates in comparison to the rest
    of the world."

    No point in asking that... we already know the answer.

  • #46 7 years ago

    mmnnnah ! looks lame .360 is better but dont bother sayin anything to me about it coz im rich and will buy both ...so shut up

  • blueseagull #47 7 years ago

    Edited by 3 at 19/05/05 @ 17:26

  • lennon #48 7 years ago

    " Shockingly you didnt ask him if Europe were going to get
    shafted on launch price and dates in comparison to the rest
    of the world."

    No point in asking that... we already know the answer.


    Quite but my point is they could have asked him and put him on the spot. And that is why i refuse to get excite this time about the new playstation. As Europe will be waiting till xmas 2006 to get it and even then I doubt they will make enough.
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 17:30

  • blueseagull #49 7 years ago

    > Eurogamer: Phil Harrison, thank you very much for your
    time.

    > Phil Harrison: Thank you.

    Eurogamer: No, thank you. Love to to the wife and kids, yeah?

  • Polymath #50 7 years ago

    Feanor -
    Yen is pronounced en. No hint of a y during normal pronunciation.

    I'm ready to give this whole thing a rest. I'll no doubt buy both MS and Sony's offerings. There's a reason that PR scares me... and this is it. It's so untrustworthy.

  • malarky #51 7 years ago

    Ok, well someone i know works for sony liverpool in the FMV department, and was doing some very long hours in the weeks leading up to E3. Make of that what you will.

  • Mirkan #52 7 years ago

    He's dodging the REAL subject, Matrix style, though. People want to know if Killzone was real time, and he SORT OF says it wasn't. Yet people who want to believe it was read that into his words.

    It still doesn't say, black on white, that Killzone was realtime, in-engine PS3 graphics.

    There's no reason they WOULDN'T say that if it was.

    I don't buy it. I think the hardware is impressive, and I really wanted the Killzone footage to be real for a long long time, but now 95% of my body screams that we're being PS2-ized again.

    The difference is that this time I almost bought it.
    Edited by 2 at 19/05/05 @ 17:47

  • asphaltcowboy #53 7 years ago

    So, everything in the tech demos was real-time... so he says... can we assume everything else was rendered?

  • bloodflowers #54 7 years ago

    Unless the PS3 in Japan gets a lot of nice 2D games (as the PS2 continues to, and we see few of them - BAH!), then I won't be getting one most likely.

    I hate M$, I love my PS2, but when I want to play something that needs the power of a next gen console, I generally want to be playing it online. And we all know who won /that/ contest, even if that Sony guy doesn't really want to admit it... I can be found on Xbox Live most evenings, having deserted online PS2 gaming over a year ago.

  • Kaizer #55 7 years ago

    "...everything... to spec." Sure, he doesn't guarantee that it was all realtime. But it was to spec, and that should count for something, shouldn't it? Anyway, Gears of War for the 360 looks amazing in-game, according to journalists having sat through a behind-closed-doors demonstration. So - if the PS3 is said to be even more powerful than the 360 - why shouldn't Killzone et al look like they do in the demos?
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 18:23

  • Feanor #56 7 years ago

    Someone needs to grab J Allard and say - "Your games look
    crap, how representative of your hardware is this?"
    Full Auto and Gears of War looks great, and several people, including Allard, have confirmed that the Alpha kits the 360 games are running on at E3 are less than half as powerful as the final xbox 360 will be.
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 18:04

  • Scimarad #57 7 years ago

    Judging from the comments section I think people are taking what he said to prove their respective arguments rather than actually reading the interesting stuff - Of which there is a lot in article.

    God, the internet depresses me sometimes...

    I also notice a trend towards claiming that Sony are overhyping the PS3, yet those same people seem to be swallowing this "fraction of the true power" stuff that Microsoft is saying. Hmmm...
    Edited by 2 at 19/05/05 @ 18:18

  • Feanor #58 7 years ago

    This article at IGN sure makes Eurogamer look like they came down in the last shower. Sorry guys, but the American web-sites are showing you how it's sposed to be done for once.

    http:// ps3.ign.com/articles/616/616591p1.html

    What MS are saying about 360 games not running perfectly at E3 because they are running on Alpha kits is EXACTLY what they said about the problems with Halo at E3 in 2001. And of course Halo turned out fine graphically. Sony using prerendered videos to hype up their new console is exactly what they did for the PS2, and we all know what the launch titles for that looked like.
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 18:22

  • mustardkid #59 7 years ago

    " "If it's supposed to be so insanely powerful, then how come
    some games looks comparatively despicable compared to the
    rest? "

    cos the insanely powerfull cell didnt create the software - not every game will push the system, theres gonna be a fair smattering of dross on all the systems and a goodly amount of gaming nirvana - remember sytems don't guarantee greatness - thats down to hard work and deditcation of the coders

  • asphaltcowboy #60 7 years ago

    Good link Feanor - I've highlighted the important bits:

    IGN: Is the Killzone sequence a fair example of what people can expect from realtime gameplay on PlayStation 3?

    Jan-Bart:"Yeah, it's basically a representation of the look and feel of the game we're trying to make."
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 18:26

  • Nige #61 7 years ago

    >Full Auto and Gears of War looks great, and several
    people, including Allard, have confirmed that the Alpha kits
    the 360 games are running on at E3 are less than half as
    powerful as the final xbox 360 will be.

    I'd like to believe that, but we're 6 months away from launch, and I can't help but feel that I should feel more excited than I am, and be in possession of something more tangible than some sketchy 3rd party movies. This show was an opportunity to prove beyond doubt that Xbox is a serious contender. It seems like an *extremely* critical opportunity missed to me.

    Sony have got Eurogamer (and some other key players) WELL onside. Rightly or wrongly, this perpetuates through to consumer confidence. Many chavs will be telling their mates to avoid 360 on the strength (or lack thereof) of Microsoft's earliest offerings - losing the PR battle this soon is practically fatal.

    All Microsoft needed to bring were some slick, pretty, tech demo's ... instead they brought some misguided ideals and precious little else. They can claw this back if they try hard - but only if they're not arrogantly resting on their beliefs that content, COG's, developer support etc. are the key deciders. If nobody wants your system in the first place, then none of that matters in the slightest.

  • Kiigan #62 7 years ago

    Good interview, I like Phil Harrison.

    However, there are some disingenuous comments there and he could have been a bit more honest / forthcoming about the game footage. Obviously when someone is asking if the game footage was real-time or not, they are really asking if the footage was recorded whilst running real-time on console hardware, as opposed to pre-rendered mockup FMV sequences. We all knew it was a bloody video reel in the press conference.

    Most of the game footage shown was either pre-rendered, or not running on PS3 hardware. The tech demos were obviously real-time, as was the Unreal and Getaway demos.

    No one ever claimed that the PS3 was some great subterfuge, but since the thing that got journos everywhere all excited was the actual game footage, it is important to realise that most of it was pre-rendered. And therefore pretty fucking irrelevant.
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 18:28

  • Feanor #63 7 years ago

    "Sony have got Eurogamer (and some other key players) WELL
    onside. Rightly or wrongly, this perpetuates through to
    consumer confidence. Many chavs will be telling their mates
    to avoid 360 on the strength (or lack thereof) of
    Microsoft's earliest offerings - losing the PR battle this
    soon is practically fatal."

    I dunno, are chavs really following the E3 coverage? Is anyone following the coverage apart from people who are already really interested in videogames?

  • Abscido #64 7 years ago

    Sorry guys, but the American
    web-sites are showing you how it's sposed to b done for
    once.

    Yeah, that IGN response is good, but I think you're overwhelming faith in the 'american websites' is a little unconsidered, Feanor. I already posted this response to a comment of yours in the 'bias' article, but I'll repost here. It's not meant to defend EG as such, or to attack you either, more to show that this site's reactions were evidently - if you did your research *properly* - shared by a site you advocate over EG's E3 coverage. (1up is great, too, though).

    Here is the blog of Sam Kennedy, editor of 1up, speaking of Sony's showing:

    "Oh. My. God. Now THIS is next generation. After seeing a lot of the Xbox 360 stuff over the past few weeks, I was starting to get a bit worried that the next generation leap wouldn't be large enough -- don't get me wrong, I've seen some truly amazing stuff on the 360 (like Gears of War), but nothing has absolutely blown me away. Nothing has really surprised me. Seeing some of the demos running on PS3, my jaw just dropped -- just as it did when I first saw Mario 64 on the N64, or just as it did when I saw MGS2 on the PS2. Killzone on PS3 just looks so amazing (you can catch it in 1UP's video player on the E3 page)."

    Like I said in my other comment, EG just let their initial reactions explode on to the front page, while the likes of 1up didn't - the Killzone thing obviously fooled a bunch of people, otherwise IGN wouldn't even be running an article specifically on the controversy.

  • MikeD #65 7 years ago

    I dunno, are chavs really following the E3 coverage? Is
    anyone following the coverage apart from people who are
    already really interested in videogames?

    No, but that's the thing. They always "hear it from a mate". And that mate heard it from a mate. And that mate heard it from a mate. And that mate heard it from you! (or me, or any more nerdy guy, you get my point).

    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 18:38

  • Scimarad #66 7 years ago

    But the PS3 IS very exciting and that's nothing to do with those Killzone or Motor-thingy videos.

    Just as a matter of interest, does anyone have links to the tech demos used when the PS2 was 'revealed'? I'd like to see how they match up or not to what the PS2 is ACTUALLY capable of...
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 18:52

  • mustardkid #67 7 years ago

    halo , metroid prime(s) , ico , project gotham , eternal darkness, MGS , KOTOR , zelda , resi evil, 0 + 4

    the fact that some of you have forced yourselves to miss out on some of these corking games cos of your demonising of randomly chosen hardware companies is crazyness of the highest order. no matter what claims prove false or whatever the fact is that all these consoles will be more than capable of handling some fantastic games. im cureently turning cartwheels of delight at virtually everything that is comming out of E3 .... and i wouldn't have it any other way.

  • mustardkid #68 7 years ago

    in the name of science here are the ps2 tech demos

    http://psx.ign.com/articles/067/067199p1.html?fromint=1
    Edited by 2 at 19/05/05 @ 19:00

  • Nige #69 7 years ago

    >I dunno, are chavs really following the E3 coverage?

    As MikeD says, perhaps not directly, but if you head over to BBC's site and look at the 'Have your say' section... it's been a different next gen related topic practically every day this week. This is far reaching. Burberry Chav knows 2 things; Vauxhall Nova & Playstation.

  • Vin #70 7 years ago

    "So from switch on, day one of the machine, network functionality will pervade every aspect of the machine. We talked a little bit about that at the conference, but there's a lot more detail to go into about some of the really cool things - like, if your PS3 is switched on at home, it can be a media server to your PSP on the other side of the planet. Now that is incredibly cool. I could sit here in LA and navigate the data which is stored on my PS3, and download music and other data off my PS3, onto my PSP."

    Ah, how quickly we forget all of the postulation of uses for the Ps2.

  • Scimarad #71 7 years ago

    Possibly, but on the other hand my PSP is definately living up to it's potential as a multi-use device.

  • The-Bodybuilder #72 7 years ago

    "Everything in the demos was real-time"

    That's not what the lead designer of guerilla said.

    http:// ps3.ign.com/articles/616/616591p1.html

  • mustardkid #73 7 years ago

    read the article again and work out the difference between tech demos and game demos

  • Scimarad #74 7 years ago

    Erm, I think you'll find Phil Harrison was careful differentiate between the TECH DEMOS and the 'game footage'. Er you must have missed that bit...

  • drumbaby #75 7 years ago

    ""Everything in the demos was real-time"

    That's not what the lead designer of guerilla said.

    http:// ps3.ign.com/articles/616/616591p1.html "

    He doesn't say anything to contradict Mr Harrison. He's not talking about the real time tech' demos. He's talking about the Kzone 2 footage.

  • The-Bodybuilder #76 7 years ago

    Also, why are people getting excited over pre-rendered videos of the getaway3?
    Has EG forgotten about those "real time" pics of the original getaway? You know, the one that looked NOTHING like the final game?

  • Aaarrrgh #77 7 years ago

    Phil Harrison: Not all of that - in fact, none of it was real-time because it was all running off video. If you make a presentation to two and a half thousand people, you're going to put some of it on video just to be on the safe side.

    Haha, does Phil think we're morons? WAY to dodge the question.
    Edited by 2 at 19/05/05 @ 19:55

  • vrln #78 7 years ago

    Another disappointing and biased article from Eurogamer. You have quoted "everything in the demos was real-time" when the interview itself proved the exact opposite. Not only has G4 TV also already claimed that the KillZone2 video is full FMV (they said they asked the developers). My respect for you guys has dropped alot during this E3. I mean sure you can say Halo is a 8/10 game, but this site has been so blatantly pro-sony this time it's not even funny. Playstation3 - "the real next generation" and then the MS story with "fails to impress"... Topics like these do not belong to any site that wants to be taken seriously. Should microsoft have shown only tech demos too? And besides gears of war for example easily matches anything that looked even slightly like it could be gameplay related in the tech demos.

    If I want to hear biased pro-sony PR I'll buy their official magazine, I don't expect this kind of behavior from any site that claims to be "journalism". Some facts you failed to bring up: a.) no online demonstration whatsoever from sony b.) not a single actually playable game from sony c.) dmc4, gt5,tekken6,mgs4 - am I the only one who wants new IP and not just play remade playstation one games? Techdemos are always impressive and sometimes give an outright wrong impression of the system. Anyone remember the "real time" Final Fantasy 8 dance scene that sony showed when they introduced PS2? Now today we all know alot of Dreamcast games are fully on-par or exceed the PS2 graphics.

    Not only this, but you're also failed to note that the Xbox360 specs are not carved in stone - please read any of the recent MS interviews, it is not 100% certain that they aren't including a HD-DVD drive and so on. Eurogamer took the bait completely this time, not even a hint of speculation. Yes of course the PS3 is going to be more powerful if it launchers later, but to claim it's twice as fast and so on is very unprofessional at this stage. Let the games do the talking, not the overblown specs info from the PR department. There is simply no real information to support this claim yet. And let's be honest here, the only game related demo they showed that was ABSOLUTELY stunning is KillZone2, which is obviously not realtime or even ingame.

    Do you honestly think this guy is going to say "No, some of what we showed is pure FMV and I doubt we can achieve that but this is what we are trying to achieve"?

    Disclaimer: before you judge me as a MS fanboy, I own all the current consoles (and alot more too) and am probably going to get the PS3 too eventually. And I like many PS2 games. There is simply no way around the fact that Eurogamer has handled this entire E3 with a very unprofessional "fanboy" attitude. I must say that I used to think very highly of this site, eventhough I disagree with some Xbox reviews (HALO for example), but at least you always acted rationally and so on, this like an an exact opposite.

    Last but not least, about this interview itself: it was a pretty nice interview, shame it was ruined by a PR-propaganda machine style comment that is actually proved wrong in the interview itself.
    Edited by 5 at 19/05/05 @ 20:12

  • drumbaby #79 7 years ago

    "Also, why are people getting excited over pre-rendered
    videos of the getaway3? "

    Yet again, it's real time, says Mr Harrison. Camera moving, and so forth....Probably why people are getting excited.

  • jiveguy #80 7 years ago

    So the Cell processor has been built from the ground up to support broadband and online is part of the DNA of the machine. Nice. Now, tell us about the software and services that will actually use this.

    vrln: How can you call an interview biased? The Sony man is going to tell us what he wants us to hear. EG asked some good questions after all the nonsense here.

    Hopefully they'll put their interviews with Nintendo and Microsoft soon.

  • drumbaby #81 7 years ago

    Both interviews which will feature only hard fact and 100% BS free accuracy, naturally.

  • vrln #82 7 years ago

    I'm not calling this interview itself biased, just the way Eurogamer announced it: " "Everything in the demos was real-time." It's only natural that each company will try to show their own system in a superior light in every regard.
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 20:17

  • drumbaby #83 7 years ago

    It's what the guy said.

  • iffats #84 7 years ago

    Feanor great link to the ign article. Notice how most of the writers there thinks the killzone demo is nowhere near real.

    Are we forgetting Killzone 1 was meant to be a Halo killer but turned out to be nothing special. Are we now saying the same team is working on one of the games of E3.

    Man this is getting depressing I will prob buy all three consoles as i have done this generation but the reporting here is not impartial at all. Guys what is going on with you and LA. Please bring back the impartiality.
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 20:21

  • vrln #85 7 years ago

    Yes, and if he says that the gameplay videos were not real time after that it's not something you should include in the article topic as it gives out a false impression.

  • Syrette #86 7 years ago

    clearly Eurogamer thought they could relieve themselves of any and all deserved blame by pinning their hopes on a misinterpreted quote by Phil Harrison.

    not very impressive.

  • Freek #87 7 years ago

    There is no misinterpreted quote there. The demos they showed were real time, including the impressive Getaway concept video.
    The game footage consisted of things either in progress or putt toghther with game assets.
    When you render something, what do you get? Flawless anti aliasing. A problem with the PS2/Xbox and older PC hardware, it coulden't match that so you got things that looked fake. But that would no longer be an issue with Xbox 360, PS3 and top line PC hardware so it doesn't matter if you render it out as long as the pollycount and texture resolution is the same as what you use in the game.
    Like with the EA NBA 06 teaser. It was prerendered, people cried fowl (including me) but they're showing real time footage at the booth and it matches up with the prerendered stuff, except without the weather effects.

    The mere fact that the disscusion even exist is evidence of that: you can barely see the difference between next gen games that run in real time or stuff that's a prerendered mock up.
    Edited by 2 at 19/05/05 @ 20:49

  • vrln #88 7 years ago

    Freek: Your logic is slightly flawed. First of all, of course it's actual game art, or art that has been mode for the game. This does NOT mean that the final game is going to look anywhere near this. For example there was no LOD (level of detail) system at all in KillZone2. If you say "everything in the demos was real-time" that means everything they demoed, if you quickly glance at it. Even the gameplay videos are demos. A tech-demo on the other hand is another thing, but even that would be misleading as that would imply everything else was real time too, which it obviously wasn't.

    I don't believe your in any position to say this is really what the next gen will look like - I'm a militant agnostic in this regard. I don't know and neither do you :) Remember that sony claimed the PS2 could render toy story in real time and do games that look like the FMV in PS1 games - the reality was nowhere even near that. It's pretty much a fact that the KillZone2 video looked like as if from another system compared to the real time Unreal demo for example.

    When you render something, you get exactly what you want to render as it doesn't matter if it takes an hour per frame to render ;)

  • Feanor #89 7 years ago

    "Like I said in my other comment, EG just let their initial
    reactions explode on to the front page, while the likes of
    1up didn't - the Killzone thing obviously fooled a bunch of
    people, otherwise IGN wouldn't even be running an article
    specifically on the controversy."

    Sorry, but your comparison of one blog at 1up (that never said anything as ridiculous as EG's "real next generation" nonsense) to half a dozen alarmingly one-sided articles by Eurogamer just doesn't wash. And what's more, Eurogamer still haven't admitted that their reaction to prerendered footage was way over-the-top at best.

  • Feanor #90 7 years ago

    "Both interviews which will feature only hard fact and 100%
    BS free accuracy, naturally."

    Well, hopefully the BS will only be coming from Nintendo and MS and not Eurogamer itself for a change.

  • vrln #91 7 years ago

    Feanor: Indeed, if you look at the articles from IGN/GAMESPOT and so on noone had anything even near as blatantly pro Sony as here on Eurogamer. There was not even a hint of professional sceptism that every journalistic site should have. Sony showed very very little (none?) actual interactive gameplay content, there's no way to get around that fact. Alot of sites took the bait and posted the KillZone2 video as "realtime gameplay", including the largest gaming site in Finland (it was actually the only video they posted at first!) - this gave a very wrong impression to people, and I actually think it was a bit cheap to make the KillZone2 FMV trailer look as if it's "in-game".

    edit: The least Eurogamer could do is to at least post an editorial that they got a bit carried away and so on, I think it's very far fetched to claim that the Xbox360 showing is weak and it's a "fact" that the PS3 is the "real next generation". And this is coming from someone who looks forward to both consoles, not just the Xbox360.
    Edited by 2 at 19/05/05 @ 21:12

  • Freek #92 7 years ago

    Actaully that reality was totaly true. Look at the older PSone FMV now, they look like crap, they diden't age well at all. Now look at Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3, the Silent Hill games. They do look as good as the old FMVs and at times better.
    We're all in the same posstion, all I am saying is that if you look at what's been proven to be real time and highly impressive on both the PS3 and Xbox 360 you'll notice a consistend level of quality that matches up with the mock ups.
    Now you can be all pessimistic and jaded and claim it won't look like that but there's no evidence to back up that statement either.
    If and when the games apear and they don't look as good as the mock up the developer showed they'd be found out and I'm sure the reviews will reflect that but there's no reason to go there now.

    Sure you get exactly what you want, duh, but if you use the same quality of objects you're going to use in the game, what you render will look like the final game.

  • Xerx3s #93 7 years ago

    *G* They really got you by the balls eh? "Everything was real" Sure. I remember that they said that when they launched the last console. I also remember how much of that actually turned out to be true (nada).

    Comman EG! Where is your are the good questions you usually ask? You open a question line, but dont do anything with the answer! You just take for granted what you get! IE: fire some real questions away about the PRE RENDERD videos!

    " I wonder how it comes that the same people that seem to love
    m$ and xbox do also realize that EG is the best games site
    on the planet.
    I mean: why are they here in the first place?" Thats because they usually are pro games journalists, instead of the sony fanboys that they turn out to be now.

  • vrln #94 7 years ago

    Freek: There is no rational argument possible right now for claiming that this (the most popular example being KillZone2) is exactly what the next generation will look like. We simply cannot take that as a fact until the games hit the stores, or at least you can see an interactive demo of someone playing the actual game itself. So far Sony has not provided any interactive gameplay material, there's no way to get around this. If you are claiming the otherwise you have blind faith in Sony. Faith is no basis for an argument though. Fact is that you don't have any proof that games will look like this, and I don't have any proof either, but the difference is that I'm not claiming I have proof.

    About the PS2 games looking like PS1 FMV, oh please. To claim any PS2 games look even anywhere close to the FF8 FMV is extremely far fetched. It's no secret that the PS2 is very weak graphically and suffers from many design flaws, such as the lack of much VRAM. Go see the original tech demos Sony showed of the PS2 and then claim the games look like that today. The tech demos Sony showed looked pretty much like the FFVII movie "realtime" PS3 scene. PS2 games all have pathetic resolution textures, are jaggy and are nowhere even near what Sony promised originally.

    Edit: And metal gear solid 2-3 look horrible compared to the FMV in Final Fantasy 8, which was demoed "realtime" on the "PS2" ages ago.
    Edited by 2 at 19/05/05 @ 21:21

  • Freek #95 7 years ago

    Obviously not FF8 since that was one of the games made at the end of the hardware cicle, atleast not the big scenes but look at the older stuff. That is what was claimed; Ps2 graphics look like CGI in old PSone games and it's true it holds up.
    The jaggies and low res textures were only a problem in launch titles.

    They only demoed a scene out of FF8, the dance scene wich only had a few chracters in it and a simpel backround, MGS/Silent Hill games look atleast as good as that.
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 21:24

  • vrln #96 7 years ago

    And one more comment about Eurogamer - I've read this site for ages and hold it in a very high regard... except for this E3 coverage that has been a complete fiasco. I'm no blind MS fan, I own all the current consoles and all of them have good games.

  • Feanor #97 7 years ago

    "Actaully that reality was totaly true. Look at the older
    PSone FMV now, they look like crap, they diden't age well at
    all. Now look at Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3, the Silent Hill
    games. They do look as good as the old FMVs and at times
    better."

    Not true - there is still no PS2 game that looks as good as the FMV from Final Fantasy VIII. Sorry, but you're just wrong.

  • vrln #98 7 years ago

    Freek:

    Fact is, Sony demoed the FF8 dance scene in "real tme" when they first showed the PS2. They said the consoles games will look like that. This is not about the FMV that were in the first 50 PS1 games. They never demoed that - and franktly there is no PS2 game that comes even close to that either.

    "The jaggies and low res textures were only a problem in
    launch titles."
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 21:31

  • Feanor #99 7 years ago

    Freek - do you realize that Sony suppsoedly showed FFVIII FMV running in real time on a PS2 before the PS2 launched, and 5 years later the PS2 still hasn't had a game that looks like that?

  • Freek #100 7 years ago

    Final Fantasy 8

    http: //game.pchome.net/2004/06/18/mgs3_03da.jpg
    Metal Gear Solid 3 (link won't work form some reason)

    The level of detail is the same. People see CGI now and think that it looked the same back then wich is obivouly not true. The technology has progressed considrably since then.
    Edited by 6 at 19/05/05 @ 21:35

  • #101 7 years ago

    Yeah EuroPS3gamer you've really shown your selves up! I hope Sony payed you enough to replace the respect that most of us have lost for you!

  • vrln #102 7 years ago

    I'm fully aware how FF8 FMV video looks like and the screenshot you just pasted looks pathetic compared to it. And it's a cutscene video, not a gameplay one. Even the most hardcore Sony fan should be able to admit that the PS2 has been dissapointment in the graphics department. Hell, even the Dreamcast still has superior graphics in many games. Go ahead and play DC's Soul Calibur next to SC2 on the PS2. Or check Virtual Fighter 3 vs Virtua Figher 4. The actual gaming products on the PS2 are very weak visually compared to the competition. Did I mention the GameCube also walks over the PS2 in the graphics department? (oh and it's supposed to be inferior on paper)

  • vrln #103 7 years ago

    Btw is that the best screenshot of MGS3 you could find? The real deal looks like this most of the time:
    http://image.com.com/gamespot/ima ges/2004/screen0/914828_20041118_screen009.jpg
    http://image.com.com/gamespot/ima ges/2004/screen0/914828_20041202_screen005.jpg
    http://image.com.com/gamespot/ima ges/2004/screen0/914828_20041118_screen016.jpg

    If that is even comparable to any FMV on the PS1, I believe your living in a dream world :)

  • Freek #104 7 years ago

    They demod the dance sequnce, wich featured the least detail characters and enviroments. Non of the large battle sequince or huge machinery non of the fluffy detailed jackets Squal always wears . Just some characeters like

    these: http://www.gamecritics.com/feature/artgallery/ff8/art 07.jpg

    The cloths are simpel, the dress is part of her body, his chain is 2D plane with an alpha map.
    The anti aliasing doesn't hold up but the level of detail does.
    And lets not forget Silent Hill 3 either:
    http://www.gamecritics.com/feature/artgallery/ff8/art 07.jpg
    http://195.157.98.220/assets/articles/a521 14/ss_preview_SH3screen3.jpg
    Edited by 4 at 19/05/05 @ 21:57

  • vrln #105 7 years ago

    Not in my eyes at least, and I think the vast majority will disagree with you. The dance scene had alot of other people dancing as well and had many closeups of very high-poly faces, hair etc. There is nothing on the PS2 that even comes close. Franktly there is nothing on the PS2 that even comes close to the more simple FMV in FF8 either. By the way they also claimed it could do Toy Story in real time. It was also being talked as a poweful supercomputer (notice a pattern?), and quess what, people took the bait - the Dreamcast died and everyone was shocked at the pathetic looking launch games that looked nowhere even near the current Dreamcast games.

    Sorry, Sony will have to provide realtime gameplay footage this time to make me a believer.
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 21:59

  • Scimarad #106 7 years ago

    So, are you honestly saying that games like MGS2 & 3, God of War and Gran Turismo 4 aren't as impressive as those PS2 tech demos?!? I think you are one that needs your eyes testing.

    On a slightly different note: AAGGGGHHHH!!!!! WHY HAS THIS SITE BEEN INVADED BY MORONS!!!

  • Les #107 7 years ago

    "On a slightly different note: AAGGGGHHHH!!!!! WHY HAS THIS
    SITE BEEN INVADED BY MORONS!!! "

    That's what you get in a Micro$oft-ed world...

  • KnickKnack #108 7 years ago

    We'll see who the morons are when the real KZ2 comes out and we see what the real-time graphics look like. I'm looking forward to it very much

  • Kiigan #109 7 years ago

    I must say, it's a strangely inflammatory decision on the part of Eurogamer to include the quote "Everything in the demos was real-time" on the front page. It's clearly misleading, disingenuous, and a little out of context. Perhaps EG are just enjoying getting the Xbox 360 apologists all worked up :) :)

  • Scimarad #110 7 years ago

    For the last time just FFS grow up!!! Just go and actually play some bloody games or something...

    Er, that wasn't directed at you, Kiigan:-)
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 23:02

  • Jmog #111 7 years ago

    So, did gamesindustry.biz copy Eurogamer's interview or was it the other way around? They are identical.

  • el_pollo_diablo #112 7 years ago

    I've had a revolutionary idea.

    I'm going to give it two years, perhaps three, before I even think about buying the new playstation, or xbox, or nintendo console.

    By that time, there will be perhaps five games out that I want to play. Because the truth is, better graphics are all shiny and nice, but Getaway on PS3 or Fable 2 on X360 are still going to be shite.

  • OnlyMe #113 7 years ago

    I can't believe people complain about the PS2 being a dissapointment when it came out. I for one had NEVER seen a game as good looking as SSX, and that was a launch title.

    And seriously, people are still saying the Dreamcast have better graphics than the PS2? What are they on? I have about 100 Dreamcast games, and close to NONE of these games look as good as the average PS2 game. There's always gonna be a couple of games that stand out. Shenmue looks good, but not THAT good. It was a artistically well crafted game, but the graphics aren't that good. And definately nothing the PS2 wouldn't handle. Soul Calibur is probably the best looking Dreamcast game, and Soul Calibur 2 looks a bit better. See past the anti-aliasing, people. We all know the PS2 didn't do anti-aliasing very good, but look past that and the graphics are incredibly detailed and nothing to complain about. And I can't even imagine how anyone could compare Virtua Fighter 3tb with Virtua Fighter 4.

    But, anyway. The PS3 will really be a fantastic piece of hardware. I was MORE than satisfied with the PS2. I think the demos we've seen will be a close representative as to what we'll actually get, and that's good enough for me. The Xbox 360 also looks like a great machine, and I'll probably buy that simply because it's being released so early. When the PS3 comes out I'll buy that one. And when the Revolution comes out, I'll most likely buy that one too, because it'll probably be very cheap. And if it's cheap, and it contains games... I'm on it. Well, if it contains games I'll buy it either way.

  • chacha #114 7 years ago

    Could all this pro-sony stance have anything to do with the fact that eurogamer were not invited to the xbox 360 mtv launch party like most other websites.
    Call me sceptical but i cant help but feel the above is the case, seeing as how biased and one sided the E3 coverage has been on this site...

  • stephenchan #115 7 years ago

    OnlyMe, great comment man. respect.

  • stephenchan #116 7 years ago

    Eurogamer.net and gamesindustry.biz are sister websites, much like engadget.com and joystiq.com. They share articles and content.

  • Scimarad #117 7 years ago

    Indeed, I don't ever remember being disapointed in the PS2.
    Edited by 1 at 19/05/05 @ 23:24

  • stephenchan #118 7 years ago

    IMO, the Killzone graphics were done to the specification of the PS3, not on actual PS3 hardware as outlined in the interview. However, "to spec" doesn't factor in the potential bottlenecks that may be evident in a system and most systems never reach their full potential...

    If the PS3 can actually perform @ 2TFLOPS, those KZ graphics would be no problem... but how many people actually think that this is not just a theoretical peak and is actually achievable?

  • stephenchan #119 7 years ago

    me neither actually... the only time i was disapointed was when i saw the Getaway, that was such a letdown.

  • kflarsen #120 7 years ago

    If you would take the time to download the PS2 tech demo movie clips that someone above gave links to, you would quickly find that the infamous dance scene from FF8 is NOT THE FMV FROM THE GAME. In fact, it could easily be done on a PS2 (from what i can make out from the blurry captures).

    That does not clear Sony from a lot of other atrocious hype though. But let's at least try and stick to fact.

  • OnlyMe #121 7 years ago

    The demos weren't available on IGN anymore. I would like to see them, and if anyone have a working link for these PS2 demos, please give them to us.

  • Genji #122 7 years ago

    OnlyMe,
    I think what people were referring to with regards to the DC having better graphics was the early generation of PS2 games, like Tekken Tag Tournament and such. It took a while for developers to harness the power of the PS2.

  • kflarsen #123 7 years ago

    But I just downloaded them 15 minutes ago! This was the link:

    http://psx.ign.com/articles/067/067199p1.html?fromint=1

  • zaffazzaffaz #124 7 years ago

    Well if the killzone 2 trailer was in-game as you fanboys so claim then i take it this must be in-game aswell (stupid retarted fanboys)
    This GHOST RECON 3 Trailer blows the KILLZONE 2 TRAILER OUT THE WATER SILLY WAYS!!

    Its only been on the web for an hour but its already getting 10/10 ratings and being compared directly with the killzone 2 trailer.

    I know this trailer is not in-game much like the killzone2 trailer. I just wanna see the sony fanboys squirm after they see this trailer!!
    They will probably either then say, they are both in-game or both not in-game. lol this should be fun just check this trailer though!!!
    ITS BREATH TAKING!! (caution 50mb download but IT IS IN HD!!)

    Quicktime format:- http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=6044&type=mov

    WMV Format:-     http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=6044&type=wmv

  • Hades #125 7 years ago

    Playstation World hasn't been annouced because it hasn't been finalized, they've been working for over two years now. They've pulled senior Net+ profesionals from Silicon Vallye .Unfortunately I got kicked out of Network administration back then :-(. I think that's the reason GT4 wasn't online, because the network isn't running yet.I really hope they us Cell servers, that would load off some of the work from the PS3 Cell Unit.I expect a lot from "Playstation World". I'm really sure I wont be disappointed

  • OnlyMe #126 7 years ago

    Oh yeah, I saw the demos. Those graphics are definately doable on the PS2. That Final Fantasy VIII dancing scene was NOTHING like the one in the actual game, and Silent Hill, Metal Gear Solid all look as good as or better than this dancing scene.

  • Carrybagma #127 7 years ago

    Dear EG,

    Please hurry up an publish the next unfactual interview with another corporate bozo so that this contentious thread can die quietly (and then be repeated).

    Thank-you.

    PS. Anandtech have a nice article comparing the two GPUs, which comes to no definite conclusion due to lack of info.
    PPS. Don't Sony & MS *both* refer to pre-rendered cutscenes as 'real-time' as long as they are played off the disk? More weasel-words; playing on people's conceptions of what 'real-time' is.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 00:15

  • Abscido #128 7 years ago

    Sorry, but your comparison of one blog at 1up (that never
    said anything as ridiculous as EG's "real next generation"
    nonsense) to half a dozen alarmingly one-sided articles by
    Eurogamer just doesn't wash.

    I will quote the blog again. And the point of it, like I said, is not a direct comparison with all the EG articles, but to show that the *opinion* of this blog, from the EDITOR, is the exact same and in just as strong terms. And the reason I quote it is because of your original statement that 1up don't get carried away like 'fanboys'.

    In his piece on Sony's show:

    "Oh. My. God. Now THIS is next generation. After seeing a
    lot of the Xbox 360 stuff over the past few weeks, I was
    starting to get a bit worried that the next generation leap
    wouldn't be large enough"

    The *first line* in his piece on Microsoft:

    'Well, it was pretty obvious this would be somewhat of a letdown after getting wowed by the PS3 for two hours."

    I think this whole EG bashing is silly, to be honest. You tout IGN around - these are the guys that claim Gears of War is a killer app and that subsequenly Halo 3 doesn't matter any more *after watching a demo of it!!!* They didn't even play it FFS.
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 01:02

  • Feanor #129 7 years ago

    Geez, you're slow. A quick reaction in one, ONE personal blog on 1up doesn't compare to half a dozen editorial articles on Eurogamer by three different people.

    Just read IGN's take on the Killzone demo that I linked to earlier if you want some decent journalism.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 02:50

  • RS3York1 #130 7 years ago

    My goodness am I at the proper web address? I thought the URL stood for "European Gamer" not "European Playstation Gamer" - Or would that be "European Playstation Watcher" since EG thinks the PS3 is the real next generation WITHOUT PLAYING ANY GAMES.

    Good thing this isn't an RPG cause EG's Trustworthiness over the last 3 days just went -72.

  • spillz #131 7 years ago

    I have to say that this PS3 vs X360 debacle has been an absolutely huge balls up from EG.

    EG quotation for tagline:

    "I have ... absolutely huge balls"
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 05:11

  • MrGrumpy.au #132 7 years ago

    Sony really need to get their head out of the sand with online, their current satellite network implementation is such a complete joke that I haven't been online with it for about a year (just sick of it). You end up having large numbers of different accounts for different games, theres no way to see where friends are, it's just not all SOCOM online Sony!!!

    The biggest joke is the games that use gamespy, you have to use several accounts because the Codemasters account (V8 Supercars 2) will not work with the Activision/Lucas Arts/Midway/etc. accounts. This I wouldn't have minded as much if the one gamespy account worked for all but alas it doesn't.

    I bought the network adapter the week it came out (Oct-03, from memory) and the only thing I use them for now is to link my 2 PS2's up for LAN games of GT4, MTX Mototrax and V8 Supercars 2 (with the occasional iLink games of GT3 & GT Concept).

    I'm very dissapointed with PS2 online.

    (I won't get started with the DNAS bypassers and AR MAX idiots, hopefully they fixed that crapola by now.)

    /shurgs
    Edited by 4 at 20/05/05 @ 06:02

  • drumbaby #133 7 years ago

    "Yes, and if he says that the gameplay videos were not real
    time after that it's not something you should include in the
    article topic as it gives out a false impression. "

    Yes, because newspapers and other news websites NEVER use puns or selected sentences as headlines....do they?

    Again, it is what the guy SAID.

    :rolleyes:

    Anyone would think we're talking about a plane hijacking or a murder here, instead of GAMES and GAMING.

    :Doublerolleyes:

  • 3william56 #134 7 years ago

    Well said DB. One point to add - how come it's the people who were actually at the presentations and demos, and are (mostly) experienced game journos who were blown away (by both the 360 and the PS3), and the teenage back seat drivers on the internet who've seen the vids at best on grainy postage stamp quicktime movies who are b*tching?

    And as for EG bias - bullsh*t. The EG 360 articles were just as positive, until Sony unzipped the shiny monster out of their pants, and blew everyone away. There's not a general game site around who weren't frothing at the mouth over that one. Nerdy nit picking about one or two of the vids doesn't change the fact that on the information available at the moment, the 360's a great machine, but the PS3 might out muscle it. Which is nice, but at the end of the day, IT'S THE GAMES, STUPID!

    Jeez - you wouldn't think it'd be so hard to sell a bunch of whizz-bang shiny tech to people, would you.

  • TILT #135 7 years ago

    "Indeed, if you look at the articles from
    IGN/GAMESPOT and so on noone had anything even near as
    blatantly pro Sony as here on Eurogamer."
    http:// ps3.ign.com/articles/614/614755p1.html This one isn't exactly anti-Sony... so it seems EG aren't the only ones impressed by Sony's presentation. Actually, IMHO, I think IGN and GS had the same level of indifference towards xbox360 and enthusiasm for PS3 as EG, so I don't really see why EG is being picked on so much.
    It's also nice (well, not really) to see how all the discussion revolves around the graphical capabilities of the consoles, and not one bit about the games themselves.

  • Scimarad #136 7 years ago

    Christ, what a bunch of f**cking idiots!! You really don't update your opinion in slightest do you?

    Okay I will try and break this into very small sections that you might - MIGHT - just be able to grasp.

    1. This article says that the TECH DEMOS are running in real time. THE TECH DEMOS.

    2. This article says that the GAME VIDEOS are mostly pre-rendered and are representetive of what they think they can achieve with the hardware.

    3. It has already been established that similar TECH DEMOS released for the PS2 have been surpassed by actual ingame content. MGS2 for one blows them totally out of the water. GT3 was better than the GT TECH DEMO. FFX-2 had better character models than the Rinoa & Squall demo. These are FACTS. And as for God of War...

    4.Taking the above into consideration it is reasonable to assume the TECH DEMOS shown for the PS3 are reasonable demonstration of it's abilities.

    Please, stop regurgitating the same crap and actually read the articles not just the bits required for you to make your point.
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 07:54

  • keenest #137 7 years ago

    It is interesting to note in the IGN Killzone 2 article the Jan-Bart says it is hard on their development PCs to replicate what they are doing, as the PS3 is so powerful. I'm pretty sure these boys are working with top of the line PCs.

    This implies their PCs can't properly reproduce what they can do on the PS3.

  • FLCL #138 7 years ago

    so here you go! the Cell is actually used for graphics.. hear that Jason Ocampo?!!!! (gamespot)

  • Eighthours #139 7 years ago

    Those IGN quotes in full. Now for IGN to say on their PS3 site that they don't think the Killzone stuff is real, even the people who work on the PS2 site with their notorious bias, is surely worth noting.

    So now we come to it... What do IGN editors think. Is the Killzone video real? Will the game look like that?

    Jeremy Dunham - IGNPS2
    "I don't think so. I think the only way the game will look like that is if they spent several more years in development and knew how to exploit the PlayStation 3 to its fullest. I have no doubt that they can produce cutscenes that good, but then again, the cutscene gave that away!"

    Ed Lewis - IGNPS2
    "We're probably going to see similar type graphics...hopefully. Because that's what they're aiming for, but...oh man. Hopefully. I mean, right now it's just a concept video. What will it be? I don't know. It's way too early to tell."

    Ivan Sulic - IGNPS2
    "Hell no."

    Juan Castro - IGNCube
    "Yes. It will. On PS4... 2009. Or maybe 2015."

    David Clayman - IGNXbox
    "No. No. No. If that's the style of the game, it will look like that, but not at that level of quality. That had separate animations for every single movement. That is not a game. It was total CG. Those little things giveaway stuff like that real well."

    Doug Perry - IGNXbox
    "It doesn't look real to me, but it's what I want the game to look like and I hope. But I don't think the developer is capable of that, especially based on the first game."

    Stephen Butts - IGNPC
    "No. The video is real in the sense that it exists in this time continuum, but no, it does not reflect what the game will look like."

    Dan Adams - IGNPC
    "No."

    EG really do seem to be digging an even bigger hole for themselves. Instead of acknowledging possible mistakes, they seem keen on justifying themselves to the last. In the worst possible way this actually reminds me of Spong's attitude to their mistakes, and a week ago I never ever thought I'd be mentioning the 2 sites in the same breath.

  • borkey #140 7 years ago

    On the other hand, most Xbox360 demos seem to be done on macs ...

    http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=24 20&p=5

  • vrln #141 7 years ago

    Sad to see there are so many blind Sony fans here, I quess I'm outnumbered. Anyone who claims to be satisfied with the PS2 graphics either does not care about graphics or doesn't have much experience of gaming in general. All of the best PS2 games are pretty horrible graphically most of the time, there's no real way to get around that fact, no matter how much you love your favourite system. No, GT4, MGS2-3 and FF10 are nowhere near anything what Sony promised and franktly look very inferior to what's on Xbox/GameCube. That doesn't mean they aren't good games though, but I'm at least tired of the old "let's make more sequels for PS1 games yay" ideology. The PS2 can only reach decent graphics in non-gameplay, this is apparent in all of the most popular games. The actual gameplay graphic itself, sorry, is nowhere near the amount of hyping Sony gave to their system. Then again I don't think this matters to you, as you want to believe.

    As for branding me a MS fan, yes, I do think Xbox has a far game superior lineup this generation. I like playing games based on new IP, not endless sequels and the mainstream stuff that EA creates. I do however own all Sony's consoles and alot of games for them too so I'm in a very good position to say this without being a blind fan. Sure PS2 has some great games too though, but visually they have been a huge disappointment to me (and most games have been a disappointment content wise too).

    As for the comments that "hey, newspapers do the same", are you really being honest? You think it's justified because others do it too? The newspapers that do this kind of stuff have failed in journalism, and so has EG this time. The media is supposed to present a balanced critical view of everything, but I quess the majority here doesn't care because they only care about one platform and luckily it's the one EG likes the most.

    About the comments about KillZone2 developers, you are aware that these guys are the same people who launched the VERY hyped, "looked awesome in all screenshots but when it was released it looked like crap", very poor Halo clone? Sure they can do better, I have no doubt about it but the current situation is that they are not a respected developer in the eyes of gamers and you should take everything with even slight criticism until they actually show something that is real gameplay footage.

    3william56: You did notice that you actually proved your own argument false in that statement? You know, the whole "IT'S THE GAMES!" part - this is exactly what Sony has NOT shown so far so I'm sorry, your argument doesn't hold at all. And besides it's blatantly obvious that the EG E3 articles have been nowhere near balanced, they even note it themselves in their blogs that they were disappointed at MS while Sony showed the "real next generation". There are many respected sites that did not take the PR as badly as EG, in fact EG is probably the worst in this aspect.

    As for all the PS2 took a while to reach its power talk, it didn't take a while, it took ages. Even then it's still nowhere near what was promised. Everyone here seems to think this is what the launch games will definately look like when Sony has shown nothing except a few 10 second tech videos and some prerendered things.

    Scimarad: You are aware that using curse words and flaming is a sign that you don't have rational arguments? Please read the article again, the exact quote in the topic of the story is "Everything in the demos was real-time". Note demos, not tech demos, this refers to everything and is very misleading, especially since he disputes it himself after that. Fact is, there has been no real interactive gameplay footage shown so far, and until that changes your in no position to claim the PS3 can achieve that. Neither am I, so the only reasonable choice is to remain agnostic until Sony actually show more.

    TILT: I agree, I have never noted that Sony's presentation wasn't impressive or wasn't worth hyping. There is a big difference between hype and blatant fanboyism though. I don't think any other site had the same level of enthusiasm though, at least they didn't post articles that had clear provocative flamebait topics that look very unprofessional. The point about graphics itself is exactly my point, so far there is not a single PS3 game even announced that I care about except MGS4. This doesn't mean it won't have good games though, but right now what Sony has showed in that regard is weak.

    Another disclaimer for everyone that judges everyone who retain a rational critical view of the PS3: I'm pretty sure I'll end up buying the PS3 too as it'll have its share of great games. To me there's not a single impressive game shown so far though.
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 10:17

  • mash the x button #142 7 years ago

    "I've had a revolutionary idea.

    I'm going to give it two years, perhaps three, before I even
    think about buying the new playstation, or xbox, or
    nintendo console.

    By that time, there will be perhaps five games out that I
    want to play. Because the truth is, better graphics are all
    shiny and nice, but Getaway on PS3 or Fable 2 on X360 are
    still going to be shite".

    This makes perfect sense and blows all the daft ideas and suppositions on this thread out of the water.
    Thanks el pollo diablo.
    As I said already, let's wait and see, or do you all really believe the hype? The proof is in the pudding, as the saying goes.

  • itamae #143 7 years ago

    Heh, this whole (ultimately pointless) discussion reminds me of a recent 'Psychological Science' article I've come across a few hours ago. From the authors' conclusions:

    "We draw three pragmatic conclusions: First, the repetition of tentative news stories, even if they are subsequently disconfirmed, can assist in the creation of false memories in a substantial proportion of people. Second, once information is published, its subsequent correction does not alter people’s beliefs unless they are suspicious about the motives underlying the events the news stories are about. Third, when people ignore corrections, they do so irrespective of how certain they are that the corrections occurred."

    Full article here (http://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/ira q_misinformation.pdf)

  • Gareth.de #144 7 years ago

    Phil Harrison: I just think we had great stuff to show! Yeah, I'm really proud of the way the European content has been received, and I'm delighted with the response to Heavenly Sword, MotorStorm and Killzone in particular.

    So does this mean Sony will stop shitting on Europe with delayed hardware and inflated prices?
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 10:35

  • zErOb_cOOl #145 7 years ago

    Lost interest half way through. The Sony guy seemed to be jumping through the 'press response training' hoops very well though.

    All high-level, "I'm not entirely sure whats going on...but I expect...", answers you expect to hear, usual corporate bull...., from what I read anyway.

    Its going to be massively powerful though, thats for sure. And will be the next gen console I purchase (maybe as well as a Revolution.)

  • vrln #146 7 years ago

    Good point, Sony has treated Europe very poorly so far (PSP september launch anyone?). Nintendo hasn't treated us well either though. No matter how much you dislike Microsoft you have to admit that they have been pretty quick in bringing games etc here. I'm hoping all 3 will treat Europe better this time - MS hasn't been perfect either, it took too long for the first Xbox to be released here etc.

  • zErOb_cOOl #147 7 years ago

    "So does this mean Sony will stop shitting on Europe with
    delayed hardware and inflated prices?"

    You know, if theres one thing that seriously makes me want to just stop being bothered playing video games all together, this is it.

    I'm SICK of Europe nearly always getting a bum deal, due to games and movie releases being delayed, and then sold at increased prices!

    Its as though Europe is an afterthought, and simply an attempt to make more cash if a product does well in Japan/ the US.

    Us Euro gamers should go on strike. Teach Sony/M$/Ninty a lesson.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 10:11

  • Yaz #148 7 years ago

    "So does this mean Sony will stop shitting on Europe with
    delayed hardware and inflated prices?"

    Yep, for Europe, it's been the same old story every generation, but this time, you have to hand it to MS with it's worldwide launch of XBox 360 in November.

  • drumbaby #149 7 years ago

    "As for
    the comments that "hey, newspapers do the same", are you
    really being honest? You think it's justified because others
    do it too? The newspapers that do this kind of stuff have
    failed in journalism, and so has EG this time. The media is
    supposed to present a balanced critical view of everything,
    but I quess the majority here doesn't care because they only
    care about one platform and luckily it's the one EG likes
    the most. "

    But this is nothing new, either to this site, or to the world of journalism (good and bad) and besides, it's actually very easy:

    Headlines are there to get you to read the article. If after reading the article you're still 100% going by the headline's implied suggestion rather than being capable of making your own mind up by comprehending the story's actual content, then you've only yourself to blame.

  • Gareth.de #150 7 years ago

    "...everything... to spec." Sure, he doesn't guarantee that
    it was all realtime. But it was to spec, and that should
    count for something, shouldn't it?

    So PS3 does FMV as well as the demos - so what?

  • drumbaby #151 7 years ago

    "Anyone who claims to be satisfied with the
    PS2 graphics either does not care about graphics or doesn't
    have much experience of gaming in general."

    I'm satisfied with Devil May Cry 3's graphics. God of War's graphics. Sly Racoon's graphics. Rygar's graphics. Onimusha 3's graphics. Monster Hunter's graphics. Ghosthunter's graphics.

    I care about graphics. Not over gameplay. But I care about graphics.

    I'm also a very experienced gamer. I play alot of games. I own a Gamecube too. Have played on Xbox. I also own an Alienware Pentium IV 3.0 ghz/ ATI 9800 Pro based PC, and have played (among others) DOOM 3, and Half Life 2, and these are both great games....graphically.

    So, I guess there are going to be some exceptions to your rather bizzare little rule.

    :)
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 10:37

  • drumbaby #152 7 years ago

    Btw, what is it with this website now borking your formatting after an edit?

    It's a pain in the a55!

  • jawolf #153 7 years ago

    Change that to:
    U.S. gamers should go on strike. Teach Sony/M$/Ninty a lesson.

    Then something might happen ;o)

  • vrln #154 7 years ago

    "But this is nothing new, either to this site, or to the
    world of journalism (good and bad) and besides, it's
    actually very easy:
    Drumbaby:

    Headlines are there to get you to read the article. If after
    reading the article you're still 100% going by the
    headline's implied suggestion rather than being capable of
    making your own mind up by comprehending the story's actual
    content, then you've only yourself to blame."

    So should sites intentionally mislead? I don't think so, and fact is the majority that read this article will not analyze the text at all, they are already so pumped about PS3 they probably will fail to note it. Misleading topics are a sign of failed journalism, I don't care if "everyone does it too".

    About your other comments, fair enough, don't get me wrong I do respect your point of view. It's a question of opinion if PS2's graphics have been a disappointment or not, but there's no way to go around the fact that they have not been on par to what Sony promised. I know many other hardcore gamers and they have all been hugely disappointed by the PS2's graphics. If you play on many other platforms too I find it very odd that you don't see the PS2 to be quite horrible in the graphics department though. The games are a different matter, I love MGS etc. Sure one can be satisfied with decent graphics too, but if you compare the PS2 to other gaming platforms on the market right now (including other consoles) it's pretty hard not to note that it's lacking there. Graphics aren't that important in the end though, PS1, Gameboy and the Nintendo DS are all great examples.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 10:50

  • Yaz #155 7 years ago

    "Btw, what is it with this website now borking your
    formatting after an edit?"

    Yeh, this website went down briefly a few days ago and the formatting after an edit has been a problem every since. :(

  • drumbaby #156 7 years ago

    "If you play on many other platforms too I
    find it very odd that you don't see the PS2 to be quite
    horrible in the graphics department though. The games are a
    different matter, I love MGS etc."

    Hey, they're not as good. I'm not blind to the fact. As pretty as Jak 3 and Ratchet & Clank games are (and all the others I've played) the PS2 looks like a game platform a whole year older than GCN and Xbox...which funnily enough is what it is. The graphics certainly aren't horrible though. GT4 is arguably the best looking racer on all systems. That opinion is shared by many gaming sites, btw.

    In my opinion you're exaggerating, where as in your opinion perhaps I'm being too kind? I don't know for sure there, but the PS2 is the oldest of the bunch, and I'm realistic as to what I expect to see running on it.

    Based on the promises made for PS2, and the end result, a certain amount of caution is obviously advised for PS3 (and Xbox 360 funnily enough, because nothing's been set in stone, with alpha kits being used etc). However, I'm not going to forever penalise Sony, and in turn anyone who gets behind a Sony presentation, based on hyperbole from the past. Had Xbox and GCN shipped a whole year earlier do you think they'd have the graphical edge they have now? I doubt it. Would they have tried to wow us with tech' demos, in order to usher in the future? Of course. Msoft aren't innocent of that particular ruse, even now. It's marketing. It's hype. It's what they all do.

    My actual objection is to the ridiculousness of your statement that anyone who thinks PS2 graphics are any good is obviously bla bla bla...That's a patently ludicrous statement. The PS2 is running some seriously good looking games, and it's a whole year older. Some of them are nearly on a par with the best that GCN and Xbox have to offer, and that's pretty good going. While the games contuinue to come out for it, and continue to give me enjoyment, and also continue to improve graphically (which they are) I'm certainly not going to start feeling as if I'm a gamer lacking in any seriousness or an ability to spot good graphics.

    Puh-leez!

  • OnlyMe #157 7 years ago

    Check the tech demos from the PS2 again, and compare them to the best looking games on the PS2. Notice that the graphics on the PS2 has actually EXCEEDED the tech demos. Sony hyped the machine a bit too much, but at least, what we saw was what we were given in the end. If people stop listening to what Sony says and create impossible graphics in their own minds, and watch the demos instead and compare them to the final products, MAYBE you wouldn't all be so dissapointed?

  • IronGiant #158 7 years ago

    "Anyone who claims to be satisfied with the
    PS2 graphics either does not care about graphics or doesn't
    have much experience of gaming in general. All of the best
    PS2 games are pretty horrible graphically most of the time,
    there's no real way to get around that fact, no matter how
    much you love your favourite system."

    What a load of toss.

  • vrln #159 7 years ago

    IronGiant/Drumbaby: I admit I went too far there, sorry about that - if you replace satisfied with "good enough compared to what Sony said" I stand by that statement.

    Drumbaby: Yes I do think you're being too kind :) Alot of people probably think I'm being too harsh. I certainly don't agree with the GT4 thing, I think it looks horrible in-game (replays look great), certainly nowhere near Forza for example. I've gotten the exact opposite impression about what gaming sites think of GT4 being the best racing game graphically - at least many gaming media I've read have stated it doesn't look that different compared to GT3 (in-game that is).

  • vrln #160 7 years ago

    One more thing (not going to use edit as that would bork the text):
    Being 1 year earlier is no excuse imo, Dreamcast was one year earlier than the PS2 and still didn't suffer from the "PS2-effect" (jaggies and horribly washed out textures).

  • vrln #161 7 years ago

    IronGiant: Even if you'd be right about the PS2 reaching the techdemo status (which I definately don't agree on), how about the fact it took 5 years? In which case, you are comparing theoretic techdemos to 1st gen in-development software. I remember when a played an import PS2 from Japan around the time when it was released, and I was horribly shocked. Sure games have improved since then but even then the entire argument that the PS3 is superior based on these demos is flawed.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 13:26

  • drumbaby #162 7 years ago

    vrln, I won't argue the toss about GT4. After all I said opinion.

    As many big-name review sites have the opinion Forza's gfx < Gt4's as the other way around. I'll let that fact speak for itself. Even if you refuse to acknowledge that this is indeed the case, read IGN's previews and review for a start ("A good but not great looking game.";)....just one example. As many sites say the opposite. I said 'arguably'....remember?

    The number of big-name websites saying that PS2 game X looks as good as most Xbox/ GCN games is pretty big too. I won't post links, as they're not too tricky to find...just look at a few reviews for any of the games I've mentioned earlier. Jak 3's a good place to start, as is God of War.

    One more thing (not going to use edit as that would bork the
    text):
    Being 1 year earlier is no excuse imo, Dreamcast was one
    year earlier than the PS2 and still didn't suffer from the
    "PS2-effect" (jaggies and horribly washed out textures).

    Dcast graphics were smoother than PS2 graphics at launch, BUT comparing to it to the best looking PS2 games circa late 2001 and beyond, here's where even latter day Dcast games start to look a bit ropey in comparison.

    Certainly PS2 looked ropier straight out of the blocks. But now it's doing stuff (please see my previous posts for ready made lists of games) that very possibly is ahead of what Dcast would have been capabale of had it not been stomped into exctinction as a platform.

    Ps2 was/ is a bitch to code for. Dcast wasn't. PS2 games of today are noticeably smoother, more colourful and more detailed than the best on Dreamcast. They're very nearly up there with some of the best on Xbox and GCN. That's my point...not a comparison to a defunct console who's back catalogue has been left looking rather drab since the PS2 dev' tools have finally boosted PS2 performance.

    God of War and MGS3 running on a Dreamcast? I very much doubt it. Ratchet and Clank or Gt4 running at launch on a PS2? Yet again I very much doubt it. All I care about is that my PS2 is NOW running games nearly on a par with other systems which don't really interest me games wise, and as I said before, it being a year older makes it all the more impressive.

    Do I give a damn about what the Dcast was doing before PS2 came along? Certainly not. Nothing the Dcast ever rendered throughout its short life ever wowed me graphically. Plenty of PS2 games, ever since I saw Devil May Cry and Silent Hill 2, have done, though.

  • Feanor #163 7 years ago

    "One point to add - how come it's the people
    who were actually at the presentations and demos, and are
    (mostly) experienced game journos who were blown away (by
    both the 360 and the PS3), and the teenage back seat drivers
    on the internet who've seen the vids at best on grainy
    postage stamp quicktime movies who are b*tching?"

    Utter bullshit. I'm in my 20's and saw the PS3 videos on my 32" inch TV because the American game channel G4 showed them in their nightly 2-hour E3 special. And the G4 hosts, unlike Eurogamer, had the brains to at least question what obviously prerendered videos like Killzone will look like as an actual game.

  • vrln #164 7 years ago

    Drumbaby: Good points, I agree there are some exceptions to the rule, but they are pretty rare. It's also fair to note though that we can't know how "far" the Dreamcast could have gone, since it died so early and never enjoyed much popularity so companies didn't pour that much money into DC game development either. As for MGS2, I think Shenmue II looked almost as good or better in many places and the only fairly visually impressive section was the beginning in MGS2. Sonic adventure on the DC also looks cleaner than on the PS2.

    I've never claimed Microsoft is innocent either, every company does blatant PR (abuse), but I think Sony is clearly the most effecient in hyping.

    I quess most of this is a question opinion, I've mostly played my Xbox (PS2 is gathering dust right now), but I've never seen a PS2 game that really impressed me visually (this includes GT4/MGS3/Jak & Daxter etc) compared to what's on the Xbox or GameCube. I'm refering to games like Jade Empire, Halo2, Ninja Gaiden, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Fable and Starwars @ GC. I don't think there is anything on the PS2 that comes even close. This doesn't mean I don't think the PS2 doesn't have its share of great games (GTA3/MGS2-3 rock), I'm mostly talking about the visual side.
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 14:04

  • Feanor #165 7 years ago

    "3. It has already been
    established that similar TECH DEMOS released for the PS2
    have been surpassed by actual ingame content. MGS2
    for one blows them totally out of the water. GT3 was better
    than the GT TECH DEMO. FFX-2 had better character models
    than the Rinoa & Squall demo. These are FACTS. And as for
    God of War... "

    These are NOT facts. They are just your opinion, and it's an opinion that a lot of people don't share. Where is the PS2 game with facial models like the Old Man demo they used to sell the PS2? It doesn't exist.

  • JHuxley #166 7 years ago

    "Where is the PS2 game with facial models like the Old Man demo they used to sell the PS2? It doesn't exist."

    Because, as far as I'm aware, nobody has tried to make 'The Old Man's Head' game yet. If the PS2 was dedicated to redering nothing but an old man's head, I'm sure it could do it just fine. Probably make for a rubbish game though.

    "ignore poster"

    Can we have an 'ignore ALL posters' button please?

  • vrln #167 7 years ago

    JHuxley: Not that I agree with your points, but what about the "Toy Story" game? Alot of companies have tried to create it and failed miserably (Ratched & Clank). The ignore all posters button is easy to find, just don't open the comments section at all.

    edit: and by miserably I mean the visual quality, not the game itself.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 14:21

  • chacha #168 7 years ago

    "Because, as far as I'm aware, nobody has tried to make 'The
    Old Man's Head' game yet. If the PS2 was dedicated to
    redering nothing but an old man's head, I'm sure it could do
    it just fine. Probably make for a rubbish game though. "

    sony when showing the ild mans head lead the consumer to believe that graphics in game would be as good as the old mans head not that the ps2 could make a game with solely the old mans head. They were trying to imply that a games like tekken would feature visuals as good as the old mans head

  • OnlyMe #169 7 years ago

    And, believe it or not, Silent Hill 3 has that.

  • Freek #170 7 years ago

    Tech domes were shown in 1999. Launch titles looked like shit, gets people anoyed. And rightly so, games that aproached the things they showed diden't apear untill years later.
    And Toy Story was ofcourse never reached,that was pure nonsense, but then they diden't actauly show tech demos of that either.

  • JHuxley #171 7 years ago

    Quite right Freek, although a (very good) MGS2 demo was available around the European launch so I wouldn't say 'years'.

  • Dr_Fripp #172 7 years ago

    "vrln:
    I quess most of this is a question opinion, I've mostly played
    my Xbox (PS2 is gathering dust right now), but I've never
    seen a PS2 game that really impressed me visually (this
    includes GT4/MGS3/Jak & Daxter etc) compared to what's on
    the Xbox or GameCube. I'm refering to games like Jade
    Empire, Halo2, Ninja Gaiden, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Fable and
    Starwars @ GC."

    Haha, Fable??? Jade Empire?? Forza's graphics impressive and GT4's not?? The true mark of a jaded gamer. Anyone even *remotely* close to anything graphics-related will burst out in tears after reading this. I guess you're just sold by higher-detailed textures in most cases. Cheap.
    Edited by 3 at 20/05/05 @ 15:16

  • vrln #173 7 years ago

    Dr_Fripp: I may be jaded, I quess so. My main problem is the lack of FSAA and the blurry textures, that really annoys me. Of course this is just my opinion though. If my statement sounded like a definition of a "jaded gamer", then I must know alot of them... :)

    JHuxley: Yeah that demo was called Zone of the Enders :p

  • Dr_Fripp #174 7 years ago

    "FSAA and the blurry textures"

    There we go. Currently, the filtering (FSAA included) on the XBox isn't THAT much better. Even stronger, the bi/trilinear filtering annoys me, which gets even more accentuated with the higher detailed textures. On the ps2 they somehow managed to reduce this effect.

    Only if you're able to look past filtering, you can make a really sound judgement on the impressiveness of the graphics. Especially some of the titles you mentioned completely fail to do the job in that area (NG looks good tho), that's why I responded. XBox does have its share of impressive-looking games (maybe even moreso than ps2), but your claim is either biased or uninformed. I'll just assume the last one, since you admitted your ps2 has been collecting dust.
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 16:03

  • vrln #175 7 years ago

    Your talking as if the PS2 can even get near (by near I mean close enough that you couldn't really tell which one looks better) the Xbox in a graphical way, which is quite far fetched. It's no secret that every game that's out for both platforms looks alot better on the Xbox than on the PS2. The PS2 simply cannot handle many effects very well that the Xbox can, as they have completely different graphics systems (the custom geforce3/4 being superior). I would like to see how Doom3 would look on the PS2 ;) Or perhaps Halflife2? I'm not a fanboy as I play all platforms, but I give credit where credit is due, and in console graphics that's Microsoft right now. The GameCube also has many very good looking games. I admit some of my game examples weren't the best, but how about DOA-Ultimate/NG/Halo2 - I don't believe any of those are possible on the PS2 without sacrificing the graphics. I actually haven't played Forza btw, just watched a few videos which looked awesome- I may be wrong about that, I don't care about racing games.

    My PS2 has indeed collected dust for quite some time already, and will continue to collect dust until there's a new game for it that I'm interested in.
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 16:15

  • drumbaby #176 7 years ago

    So does the PS2.

  • vrln #177 7 years ago

    More about graphics... The PS2 may have high polygon counts, but filtering and effects are where it simply doesn't hold up to Xbox/GCube. I find those far more important than the raw polygon number.

  • Dr_Fripp #178 7 years ago

    vrln:

    "Your talking as if the PS2 can
    even get near the Xbox in a graphical way, which is quite
    far fetched."

    Why? Because you think there are no graphically impressive games on the ps2? You are taking your own opinions as facts to support your future arguments. What I said was, that the ps2 can indeed, in SOME areas (I mentioned just one!), do things as good or maybe even better than the XBox when it comes to filtering, while this would've sounded as madness a few years ago. Still, this defines only a fraction of what constitutes "impressive" graphics.

    And of course, cross platform games don't look that good on the ps2 (I'll be the first one to admit that), but they won't show up in any "impressive-looking ps2 games"-list either.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 16:18

  • vrln #179 7 years ago

    Well if you compare PS2's best looking exclusive games to the competition's exclusive games, I simply don't see any comparison possible. They indeed do look that unimpressive to me.

  • vrln #180 7 years ago

    I judge games compared to the competition. By PS2 graphics standards (most games look very bad), some games do shine, but if you compare to Xbox/Cube they simply aren't all that impressive if you ask me. Many developers have also said that certain games were better suited for the Xbox as they would have been close to impossible to create on the PS2 (for example Doom3).

    ps: you've also failed to note that most multiplatform games are created on the Playstation2 as the primary platform, then ported to Xbox. Following your logic they should look good as they have originally been optimized for PS2. Examples of this: Most things EA does, MGS2 etc - all look better on the Xbox eventhough they have originally been made primarily for the PS2.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 16:22

  • Dr_Fripp #181 7 years ago

    That's what I'm pointing at. Technically, the XBox does more impressive things, for sure, but thanks to a lot of *very* good programmers, the ps2 has put out impressive-looking games as well, even with the technical handicap. You fail to see that, and that is jsut sounding uninformed, and even laughable with the given examples.

  • Dr_Fripp #182 7 years ago

    Doom3 is not a game that's suited for the ps2, no, because even the XBox cannot handle it (Sorry, but if we're talking a difference, then this is a real good example).

    Take for example the top 10 greatest looking games that I thoght IGN posted. If you think that these aren't impressive, but you do place Fable and Jade Empire (while it looks nice and clean, just doesn't do anything that's graphically impressive) in your list...sorry.

    It's just like someone trying to argue that Hlaf Life 2 looks good. A revamped Quake 1 game, for Christ's sake.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 16:25

  • vrln #183 7 years ago

    So your argument is that eventhough PS2 is weaker technology wise, there are certain hardcore developers that can bring an amazing amount of power from the hardware? I actually agree with that, but that amazing amount of power regarding to the hardware isn't enough imo. There are also alot of talented Xbox developers who can bring an amazing amount of power from the Xbox - Bungie for example. If you compare the games that these two talented studios make, I haven't seen any top PS2 game that can compare to the top Xbox games in a visual way.

  • vrln #184 7 years ago

    Let's see, a revamped Quake1 game... You are aware that Valve built them engine almost entirely from scratch for HL2? About the Doom3 comment, last time I checked it runs pretty well on the Xbox. Yes it's a good example of a game that really takes every inch of power from the Xbox, and in a way also proves that Sony's hardware simply isn't up to the task, no matter how godlike the developers are.

    about Doom3 on Xbox: http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/action/doom3/review.html
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 16:29

  • Dr_Fripp #185 7 years ago

    If I, for instance, make an engine that can run MGS3 twice on the PS2 and make a game with it, then it will look graphically impressive, no matter how much better it would've looked on the XBox. Actually, MGS3 already features an impressive engine, and while it might've looked much better on the XBox, it still does things I don't generally see very often. So yes, it's impressive.

    Oh, maybe you want to check out the source for yourself before you comment on posts regarding the HL2 engine. Revamped from the ground up...yeah sure. And doom3 does have an impresive engine, so ok, it's also impressive on the XBox, I'll give you that one. But I'm used to a bit more than that on the pc, that's why. Just like with the XBox->ps2 ports.
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 16:31

  • vrln #186 7 years ago

    It all depends on from which point of view you look at it. If you take into consideration the amount of VRAM etc on the PS2, yes, they have some impressive stuff for it. If you compare to the competition, no I don't think they do.

  • Dr_Fripp #187 7 years ago

    I don't look at technical specs to decide impressiveness of the games itself. I look at stuff that's actually been done better, like models or animations, or certain effects that I haven't seen before, or, like doom3, how complex they can make stuff (and that's different than just slapping a higher res texture on a model).

    I consider, for example, doom3's choice of lighting very impressive, but so is the whole look of MGS3/GoW/JAK3.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 16:37

  • vrln #188 7 years ago

    I'm fully aware that HL2 uses some parts of old Quake1 code, it has been stated in various interviews, but to call it based on Quake1 is nowhere near the truth. Have you actually completed HL2 on a modern PC? All the pixel shader and lighting stuff it has is obviously very far from anything the PS2 can achieve. Not to mention the lipsynch system and so on.

  • vrln #189 7 years ago

    If you are talking about a game itself, that's a completely different discussion and I fully agree that there are many impressive games on the PS2. I was talking about strictly a graphics point of view.

  • Dr_Fripp #190 7 years ago

    The pixel shaders are the *only* thing HL2 has going for it, but they are still pretty much separate effects, and it feels like that too. That, combined with lipsynch will not make a game good-looking, especially not in the sparsely implemented way in HL2. Especially the pixel shaders: I still don't think they're used in an impressive way in HL2.

    You know that something's impressive when you can't see exactly how they've done things anymore. Again, this has nothing to do with processing power, but you still seem to insist it does.

    It's a bit like a good piano player playing on an old piano: he can still do impressive things although the overall sound will be horrible.
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 16:43

  • vrln #191 7 years ago

    I respect your point, there are alot of games that have style on the PS2. ICO for example wipes the floor with many Xbox titles in an artistic way, I'm not denying that. I was simply talking about sheer graphics, not the style itself. And MGS4 is more impressive as a game than Halo2 if you ask me.

  • JHuxley #192 7 years ago

    There's one game that can settle this argument easily - Burnout 3. It's a plain fact that the PS2 version looks almost as good as the Xbox version, which is easily amongst the most graphically attractive games for either system. Sure, it was a feat of genius on Criteron's part not easily repeated, but it proves that the PS2 is capable of delivering some - both technically and aesthetically - fantastic graphics.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 16:44

  • vrln #193 7 years ago

    If there's one exception out of 50+ games that share the same platform I think that alone speaks for itself :) Burnout 3 is a great game though.

  • Dr_Fripp #194 7 years ago

    Yup, I totally forgot about Burnout 3.

    I still don't think you understand what I'm saying: somebody who is used to good filtering (like a pc gamer these days), would look directly through the worse XBox filtering and say "Ah, this is crap, but it's hard to see how they've done these amazing grpahical effects/systems. That's why the graphics are impressive, although the filtering is drab". This still doen't mean that the XBox's graphics aren't "up to todays standards" and so can't be considered "impressive"anymore.

    Man I really get sick of that word.

  • drumbaby #195 7 years ago

    From my pov (the 'does it look any good' pov) a game like God of war looks amazing whatever way you paint it.

    A game as gorgeous looking (yes, in-game it's amazing too) as GT4 running at 60 fps is an achievement.

    A game with as much onscreen action as DMC 3 running at 60 fps with its gorgeous dynamic lighting isn't too shabby an achievment. Jaggies are there, but this game is about as fast as it gets for a 3rd person actioneer.

    A game as jaggy free as R&C 3 running at 60fps with huge draw distances in the environments, and consistently rich colours isn't to be sniffed at.

    These games look good to my eyes. Compared to anything else out there....yes even compared to DOOM 3 and HL2 running on my Alienware rig. Lower resolutions notwithstanding, these titles have wrenched as many 'oohs and aahs' from me as stuff running on much more powerful kit.

    I'm not at all easy to please either. I remember when PoP:SoT came out and every one was raving about how good it looked for a PS2 game. Erm, no. Compared to the best of the best on PS2 it looks blurry and washed out.

    There's a collective of devs working on PS2 that seem to get consistently good results. Capcom, Cambridge Studios, Konami, Polyphony, Naughty Dog, etc. There's also a fair amount that you just look at their ouput and you think 'why are you using the old dev kits!'

    If God of War was the PS2's graphical norm...alot of this PS2 graphics bashing would come to an end. See this game running in progressive scan and be amazed. seriously. :)

  • JHuxley #196 7 years ago

    But that's exactly my point vrln - Criteron proved that it could be done. And remember, this is a great looking game for Xbox too. Not every developer has access to Criteron's resources (they developed renderware remember) or the gusto to stick by their promise to deliver 'the best looking Xbox game on the PS2', which they came pretty damn close to achieving.

  • Dr_Fripp #197 7 years ago

    For a pc gamer to say "hey, this is impressive":

    Is something they *wouldn't* say with Fable and JE!

    Is something they *would* say with MGS3/Halo2 (although I still think Halo2 isn't that graphically impressive either).
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 16:52

  • vrln #198 7 years ago

    I've never heard of this God of War game, nor have I seen DMC3. Definately need to check some reviews then. I haven't actually touched my PS2 for half a year (yes I'm bitter - at least when I abandoned it things were really this bad) :)

    JHuxley: Yes they are an amazing dev-house, I'm not denying that, but if you take the best PS2 has to offer you have to compare it to the best the competition has. Ok I can finally admit that there is some impressive stuff on the PS2 too (but less impressive when you compare to the best of Xbox). Either way, I'm glad this console generation is ending soon. I think Sony has learned from their mistakes too and it's going to be a tough battle.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 16:57

  • Dr_Fripp #199 7 years ago

    "yes even compared to DOOM 3 ... running on my Alienware rig"

    Careful there buddy, no criticizing Doom3! Oh wait, that wasn't your point. :p

    Anyway, I'm still amazed when I go from HL2 to Doom3...from anything to Doom3 really, just as much as I was when I went from UT to Quake3 from time to time.

    There's just something about good graphics that cannot be captured in resolutions/filtering or specs.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 16:56

  • vrln #200 7 years ago

    Yeah it's a question of opinion (if you find doom3 or HL2 more impressive). I certainly like the clean pixel-shaders-everywhere look (HL2) more than Doom3's bumpmapping and awesome lighting effects, but both look very good if you ask me.

  • JHuxley #201 7 years ago

    "I think Sony has learned from their mistakes too and it's going to be a tough battle."

    Can't disagree there. Both MS and Sony have some fantastic hardware on the horizon...no matter what your allegion it's going to be an exciting time.

  • vrln #202 7 years ago

    As a completely off topic note, does EG have some sort of unofficial or official IRC channel somewhere? Would be easier to discuss there.

  • Dr_Fripp #203 7 years ago

    "but less impressive when you compare to the best of Xbox"

    That might be so, I won't dispute it.

    "I think Sony has learned from their mistakes"

    Showing techdemos on devkits with way too much RAM was a mistake, yes. But you cannot blame them for not having pixel-shaders or something like that, because the manufacturing process required for such an enormous amount of transistors simply wasn't there at the time.

  • Dr_Fripp #204 7 years ago

    An IRC channel, cool idea.

  • vrln #205 7 years ago

    Anyone know if there's a EG channel already or should we start a new one? :) Anyways, I'll be back later, gtg get some food.

  • Dr_Fripp #206 7 years ago

    http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=24 23&p=2

    Anandtech 's summary of the Ati and Nvidia GPU's

    Very interesting. So Ati doesn't really have 256GB/sec bandwidth between GPU and eDRAM...
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 17:29

  • Scimarad #207 7 years ago

    I can't believe people seem to be bashing the PS2 for not quite managing to match the graphics of the Xbox, a technically superior machine that came out much later. More amusingly many of these people who make this complaint would be quick to claim "Oh, I'm much more interested in gameplay than graphics..."

    You know if the Xbox360 is unsuccesful (and for the record, I hope not) I think we're gonna have to put up with the same crap we constantly get from DC apologists in relation to the PS2.

  • vrln #208 7 years ago

    I've never said I'm interested in graphics more than gameplay, I'm saying that both are important. Who knows what the next generation will bring, what counts is that there will be good games on all platforms.

    Yes I am bitter about the DC vs PS2 thing :p Microsoft has the $ to support their system even if it doesn't win though, that's what counts - Sega did not.

  • Dr_Fripp #209 7 years ago

    I was bitter about 3dfx as well in the day (now I could be considered an "Ati fanboy", but I'd just call it an "Anti-nVidia-stance";)...but both companies seem to have been hampered by a management that couldn't retain the position these companies were in, although they had good products (in the pipeline). It wasn't just the consumer, I think.

  • Scimarad #210 7 years ago

    And while were all being honest I would have been very bitter if the PS2 had fallen to the Xbox:-)

  • vrln #211 7 years ago

    While we're at it I'm also bitter about the Atari Jaguar failing - it has many good games :)

  • Dr_Fripp #212 7 years ago

    I was bitter about the Saturn losing it from the Playstation (or rather, Virtua Fighter and Sega Rally against Tekken with Ridge Racer), until FF7 and Gran Turismo came along...

  • vrln #213 7 years ago

    Indeed, those were the days. I'm hoping the next-gen consoles can get some of innovation (gameplay related) the 32bit consoles had alot. It's something PS2 (and yes, the Xbox too in many cases) have been lacking imo.

  • Dr_Fripp #214 7 years ago

    I couldn't agree more. The PC has known better days as well...Around the start of this millennium, things have become a bit bleak on the originality/atmosphere front. Unreal 2 was the perfect example.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 19:28

  • vrln #215 7 years ago

    I've given up PC gaming completely, there hasn't been any good games out for a long time. HalfLife2 was good though, I actually installed windows for a week because of it. Now that the next generation consoles can do high resolutions as well (and perhaps even hook up to PC monitors) I'll quit PC gaming alltogether.

  • Dr_Fripp #216 7 years ago

    I actually found Half-Life 2 to be sub-par as well...the atmosphere of the first game was totally ruined by a plot-presentation that even I could improve on, and those npc's were simply awful (No barney, I'm *not* your friend. Go play with JarJar Binks).

    The mods will be great tho :p:p

  • vrln #217 7 years ago

    Hehe, HL2 sure has it's share of problems but I actually liked it alot. This is pretty odd since I hated the first Halflife with a passion. I think it's a shame PC no longer has games like Fallout 1-2, baldurs gate 1-2, Deus Ex (easily top 3 ever material imo). PC games are turning more like consoles games all the time - and franktly consoles are better at console games.

  • OnlyMe #218 7 years ago

    The PS2 doesn't have innovation you say?

    ICO? The Mark of Kri? Shadow of the Colossus? Sly Racoon? Jak and Daxter? Grand Theft Auto? Metal Gear Solid? Katamari Damacy? Burnout? The Getaway (although not a good game, it was innovative for it's presentation)? Stuntman?

    I see lots of innovation.

  • savant #219 7 years ago

    "Everything in the demos was real-time" is a rather disingenuous tagline. Eurogamer's bias in the whole Sony vs Microsoft debacle is once again obvious. Other sites have raised the point that the most impressive game demos at the E3 presentation were CG "simulations of what may be possible" rather than realtime, so isn't it about time Eurogamer took it like a man, admitted it was wrong, and apologised?

    I used to hold this site in high regard, but the last few days have seriously led me to doubt the editors' journalistic integrity.

  • inpHilltr8r #220 7 years ago

    I've never heard of this God of War game, nor have I seen
    DMC3.

    Then I suggest that your comments on PS2 graphics should be taken with a pinch of salt.

  • Les #221 7 years ago

    Strange, that if you don't say exactly what some people want to hear, all of a sudden your biased...

  • vrln #222 7 years ago

    inpHilltr8r: Because there might be two exceptions to the rule out of PS2's massive game library? There are always some exceptions, but I doubt the general rule is any different because of that. I also highly doubt these games even come near to the best looking games on the Xbox right now.

  • vrln #223 7 years ago

    Les: The article topic quote is misleading, there's no way around it really. That is biased and has nothing to do with "what people want to hear".

  • El_MUERkO #224 7 years ago

    I love Sony tech but their attitude and their ability to fuck over europe annoy me, we deserved the PSP sooner and at a fairer price point and the same will probably be said about the PS3 in 12 months, I'll still buy one thou, cause they are outstandingly good consoles that are supported to the hilt by Sony and a list of 3rd parties longer than for any console past or present.

    We all know the PS3 is going to blow us away, we all know that, some of us who've felt hard done by in the past may no like to admit it but its gonna rock, its gonna wipe the floor with the XBox and have us all buying HDTV's or I'll eat my hat.

  • vrln #225 7 years ago

    "We all know the PS3 is going to blow us away, we all know
    that, some of us who've felt hard done by in the past may
    no like to admit it but its gonna rock, its gonna wipe the
    floor with the XBox and have us all buying HDTV's or I'll
    eat my hat."

    That's a pretty bold statement, I doubt we all "know" that :-) By the way, the past or present comment is a bit out of touch, remember NES/SNES? They were supported pretty well and pretty long too by third parties.

    edit: and last time I checked the Nintendo DS was outselling the PSP 3:1
    Edited by 1 at 21/05/05 @ 11:18

  • #226 7 years ago

    "NEWSFLASH" "NEWSFLASH" "NEWSFLASH"

    The Xbox 360 "IS MORE POWERFUL" than the PS3!

    Goto the link below and all will be explained:

    htt p://xbox360.ign.com/articles/617/617951p1.html

    By the way, I'm going to post this on every comments page on this site; because this is the type of information Eurogamer doesn't want you to see because this site is bias towards the PS3!

    If I get banned, so what! At least some of you would of saw this news by then!
    Edited by 1 at 21/05/05 @ 12:41

  • Dr_Fripp #227 7 years ago

    Lol! this guy's comparison is one big scam (of course). Example: to compare *system* bandwidth, this guy just adds all numbers MS ever talked about, including the 200-something GB/sec bandwidth from the eDRAM to the logic on this *same* daughter die (so this isn't even the bandwidth to the GPU itself).

    Terrible. Especially that IGN would post something like this under the idiotic excuse "Make of it what you will, but be clear we know Microsoft has clearly slanted this info, and we're not endorsing it, just printing their version."

  • vrln #228 7 years ago

    Yup, I don't think MS is a very trustable source - but neither is Sony, who has been claiming that it's "superior", which I highly doubt. To be honest though, respected PC hardware sites like hardocp and anandtech have published articles stating that the Xbox GPU at least may be superior. Either way to be honest I don't care THAT MUCH about graphics, all next-gen consoles are going to be "good enough". Of course better graphics are always a plus but I'm waiting for the games - they are the ones that count and they are also the reason I prefer the Xbox right now.

  • drumbaby #229 7 years ago

    ;)

  • vrln #230 7 years ago

    If you meant that to me I'm probably getting a PS3 too, I can't live without MGS4 :-) My favourite is still MS though - Live absolutely rocks for example. And one more note about the tech specs war, it has to be noted that MS has a track record of delivering what they promise (in consoles ;), the Xbox never let me down graphically, nor do I think that the 360 will.

  • Dr_Fripp #231 7 years ago

    Well, that bit of info wasn't even "from MS". Some nutjob hacked it together. Must've been a hoax or something; I shouldn't even have bothered.

  • savant #232 7 years ago

    Look, the whole point here is:

    a) Sony showed game demos that were rendered rather than realtime.
    b) News sources and games sites reported that everything they saw was amazing, how the Xbox 360 was outgunned and how the PS3 was the "real next gen".
    c) Since learning the truth, EG has been one of the few sites not to at least print an editorial apologising and explaining the situation.

    It's fucking sickening.

  • Feanor #233 7 years ago

    "A game with as much onscreen action as DMC 3 running at 60
    fps with its gorgeous dynamic lighting isn't too shabby an
    achievment. Jaggies are there, but this game is about as
    fast as it gets for a 3rd person actioneer."

    Much as I love DMC 3, it slows down noticeably sometimes. Not that often, but it's far from locked at 60 fps. PLus Lady looks a lot cuter in the high-res artwork than in the game, hehe.

  • Les #234 7 years ago

    Vrln,

    The headline quote (I repeat "quote", as in "not the opinion of Eurogamer";) is exactly what everyone wants to know about the interview and is neither misleading nor biased (assuming that it is what Mr. Harrison said of course).

  • vrln #235 7 years ago

    Les,

    Sure we can argue about sematics, but I'm not sure what your definition of "demos" is. For most readers it means everything they showed (=demoed) in their presentation. There would be absolutely no problem whatsoever if this was the only thing he had said (and if it had been true). Fact is however, he admits in the same interview that well, in fact none of the "gameplay" videos, including KillZone2, was real-time. In fact he admits they were all prerendered video. If this isn't a blatantly misleading quote to actually advertise the interview itself I'm not sure what is. It's blatantly misleading and gives a completely false impression.

    Just because it's something "everyone wanted to know about the interview" is clearly no reason to post something as the interview topic, as it's as already said not only rubbish, it's also franktly not true at all. If Harrison would have said "everything in our technology demos was real-time, but our gameplay videos were all prerendered to show a vision that we are trying to achieve", that would have been completely ok. The job of a journalistic website is not to tell people what they want to hear, it's to tell them how things actually are.

    I'm really not the only one here who has come to this conclusion, I think the majority of the people who are going to buy the PS3 agree with. Judging from the comments it certainly seems that way. The KillZone2 "gameplay-video" in my humble opinion is close to scam by Sony, at least it's nowhere near fair play to show something that obviously has nothing to with the current reality. This has already been confirmed by gamespot, ign, and the developers themselves have already said it's merely a "vision" of what they are trying to achieve.

    What this article says to the casual mainstream gamer who probably might not even read it very thoroughly, is that all what Sony showed was in real-time. This is already amplified by the fact that many sites fell for the trap and posted the KillZone2 "in-game video" as proof of the PS3's technological superiority. In other words the topic used in this interview is a prime example of misleading. Sure if you read the interview rationally you can see that it's not true at all, but for example if Allard would say in an interview that: "Sure many people may say that the PS3 will absolutely dominate this generation, but it's not really not that simple etc etc" and then you would have "the PS3 will absolutely dominate this generation" as the topic. Sure this example is exaggerated, but the basic idea is the same. One shouldn't advertise an interview with a statement that is not only false, but actually proven false in the interview itself.

    It is biased because it gives a false impression to people and further fuels to wrongful Sony CGI-propaganda that so many sites took without even the slightist hint of sceptism, even after Sony's "emotion engine" that was supposed to render Toy Story in real time. It's also misleading due to the fact it gives a completely wrong impression which is actually proven false in the actual interview itself.

  • Freek #236 7 years ago

    There's always a stand out quote or tagline from an interview or article under the title, that's not bias that's how the site works. If a person doesn't bother to read the interview fully to see what's meant by something that is entirely thier own problem and has nothing what so ever to do with the website.
    If a person thinks a headline or a single quote holds any meaning they're idiots, not EGs problem what they think or how they come by that idea.
    They're a games site, not a net nanny.
    Edited by 3 at 22/05/05 @ 00:45

  • captain-future #237 7 years ago

    "Everything in the demos was real-time.".

    hmmm, I thought the tag lines was meant ironic.

    even after Sony's "emotion engine" that was supposed to
    render Toy Story in real time.
    if they really said that: BRUAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHHHAAAA!
    Edited by 1 at 22/05/05 @ 01:19

  • drumbaby #238 7 years ago

    "Vrln,

    The headline quote (I repeat "quote", as in "not the opinion
    of Eurogamer";) is exactly what everyone wants to know about
    the interview and is neither misleading nor biased (assuming
    that it is what Mr. Harrison said of course). "

    Bravo Les. Someone else who can spot the commonly used device of a headline containing words from the subject himself, in a way to inspire readership. This happens in the reporting of news.

    And if a reader is still influenced by the tone of the headline, despite having read the entire article, maybe they need to calm down a little, and re-educate themselves in how to look at the big picture. Or read the article again until they understand it.

    :/

  • vrln #239 7 years ago

    Freek: First of all, Eurogamer is a journalistic site that covers video games. I would suggest you to go read some basic literature about the practise and ethics of journalism. It's not that simple that they should just randomly take some quote out of the interview and use that to advertise it. Especially not a quote that is misleading and blatantly false.

    Drumbaby: Yes the topic should of course be something that inspires readship, but it should not be something that is blatantly false and gives a completely wrong impression. That is against all basic rules of journalism, I'm not sure how you guys can even defend that. Just because alot of other sites and magazines also don't follow journalistic criteria you think EG shouldn't either? That's no excuse at all if they want to have journalistic integrity.

    Of course readers should and will notice in the interview that the quote was false, but I can't see how your defending a blatantly misleading topic quote? Surely there was alot of other things they could have quoted for that without sacrificing journalistic integrity. "This happens" is no excuse at all. It shouldn't happen on sites and magazines that want to be taken seriously.

  • kaosridder #240 7 years ago

    who the hell runs this site? Daft people? Its all over the friggin net, that Phony used CGI. Many of the vidoes were just that. VIDEOS!!! Real-time my certain bodypart. Yeah. The vidoes were really rolling of a video when you saw it. Is that it?
    I cant believe that some peeps actually still backs up this shyte site. U-n-b-e-l-i-e-v-a-b-l-e.

  • OnlyMe #241 7 years ago

    Hey you! Yeah you! vrln I mean. You're biased AGAINST Sony anyway, so your opinion doesn't matter anyway. Bad graphics on the PS2? Pffft. Eurogamer being biased? Tsk tsk. Bad boy! Sit!

    My argumentations are very strong. Yes they are. Hah!

    /end of stupid pointless post

  • vrln #242 7 years ago

    OnlyMe: Sorry for not "getting" the joke :p I deleted this reply...
    Edited by 2 at 22/05/05 @ 14:05

  • kaosridder #243 7 years ago

    vrln ignore the guy. I bet his ego is so merged with sony that he got a PS2 for brains, the disktray coming out of his forehead.

  • MoFo #244 7 years ago

    Vrln, will you let it rest already! You sound like a scratched record. You just come across as a Microsoft biased Sony basher. You've clearly stated that EG are terrible journalists (I still prefer to refer to them as game enthusiasts). You seem to be preaching your ethical journaistic nonsense to an ever diminsihing crowd that has grown tired and moved on to enjoying games again.

    Look, this is a games site, not the US senate deciding to invade another country. No one's going to die and nothing bad will happen if EG make out that the PS3 will be better than the XBOX2.

    Just go take some more of those blood pressure tablets and everything will be fine again.

  • OnlyMe #245 7 years ago

    vrln: sorry if I offended you. Shame you couldn't take an obvious joke. Ah well.

  • vrln #246 7 years ago

    OnlyMe: Well, I think I owe you an apology, I missed it completely heh :/ I quess my sense (or lack of) humour is pretty bad sometimes.

    MoFo: When I have I said EG are terrible journalists? I have only provided criticism of the E3 coverage. If you read me other "statements" you would know that I actually like EG (and still do), what shocked me is the quality of this E3 stuff compared to the other content I have seen from this site during the many years I have been reading this site. I have never said that EG is rubbish and so on, I still respect this site, I just think they should at least make some kind of opinion article or at least tone down some of the clearly "we took the PS3 hype a bit too badly this time" articles. Although it seems like there already is such a statement in the Allard interview. I've merely been replying to these people who defend this as if it's completely normal and that it's nothing special at all.

    I think you've taken my comments a bit too seriously, I'm not exactly preaching ethics in rage or anything :p Just because I've been active in this thread doesn't mean I'm on some kind of crusade against EG. You are right though, I'll shut up now, so this will be my last post in this thread (and probably in the other thread I'm active on here too). You do have a point that obviously noone here cares about my "preaching".

    As for the Sony basher comments, well I don't exactly see how criticising a company with rational arguments is bashing. Last time I checked I still play all consoles and believe all of them have their strong and weaker points (I still stand by my opinion that the PS2 has the most of them, but this has nothing to do with the PS3, but I do think all PS3 information at this stage should be taken with sceptism).

    Of course this isn't that serious, but I at least prefer the serious journalistic style of economic magazines etc - and I think most of the content on EG share that style. Obviously alot of people disagree with me about this though.

    Ok I quess this is all :)

    (disclaimer: for the record I'll still keep following this site eventhough I don't agree with the editors opinions regarding PS3/Xbox360 - I'll leave the "preaching" to other sites forums. This is still one of best gaming sites imo, even if it keeps the current Xbox1.5 vs. Real Next Generation stance)
    Edited by 2 at 22/05/05 @ 13:37

  • Scimarad #247 7 years ago

    "comments, well I don't exactly see how criticising a company
    with rational arguments is bashing. Last time I checked I
    still play all consoles and believe all of them have their
    strong and weaker points (I still stand by my opinion that
    the PS2 has the most of them, but this has nothing to do
    with the PS3, but I do think all PS3 information at this
    stage should be taken with sceptism)."

    That's all very well...assuming you treat Nintendo and Microsoft by the same rules.

  • Carrybagma #248 7 years ago

    Ahhh... is it really over at long last? What an incredible (and perhaps pointless) thread this was. I'm still none the wiser about the relative merits of Xbox360 and PS3, although I'm definitely sure that Mr. Harrison is a slippery, corporate type who can be relied upon to neither confirm nor deny anything of relevance. Oh well.

    I just pasted this entire thread into Word, removed the dates and 'ignore poster' bits, left the poster names, and it came to over 21.5 thousand words! Incredible!

  • Les #249 7 years ago

    "I just pasted this entire thread into Word, removed the
    dates and 'ignore poster' bits, left the poster names, and
    it came to over 21.5 thousand words! Incredible!"

    That's about as pointless as this threat itself... ;-)
    Edited by 1 at 23/05/05 @ 13:11

  • Dizzy #250 7 years ago

    http://www.penn y-arcade.com/view.php3

    Nuff said

  • Shinji #251 7 years ago

    vrln :-

    I'm not responding to a lot of the posters on these threads, mostly because there are simply too many comments to read and still have a hope of getting any work done, but you make some pretty fair and reasoned points that I feel I should reply to.

    We talked for a long time - myself and Tom mostly - about how we should approach covering the conferences, and made a conscious decision to actually take an opinionated stance. We held - and still hold - strong opinions about which platforms made the strongest showing, and we made a decision that Eurogamer should reflect those opinions as well as conveying the simple facts to people.

    That's one of our big selling points as a site; we have opinions, and the arguments to back them up. People are free to disagree with what we think, obviously - that's the whole point! If there weren't people out there who thought we were talking rubbish about the next-gen conferences etc, that'd be pretty damn weird.

    However, I'm a bit perplexed by the claim that we should be apologising for expressing opinions, or that we were somehow hoodwinked by Sony. All of us here are pretty experienced writers - I have ten years experience of writing professional games coverage, I think Tom has around seven or eight and Kristan has similar. Pat has more years than my brain can possibly comprehend. I'm also originally a programmer by trade, so I have more than a passing familiarity with the technological side of the business. We're not kids who walked into the first console unveiling we've ever seen and started spaffing over renders.

    NEVER have we claimed that Killzone or MotorStorm were anything but renders (although actually, the Killzone guys now claim that it was all done in-engine and then composited in a video editor - make of that what you will). We were impressed mostly by genuinely real-time tech demos and by the promise shown by the game renders. You seem to be making the assumption that we were astonished to learn that the game footage wasn't real time, and should apologise for being misled; but we were never misled, were always perfectly aware of what we were seeing, and I for one absolutely stand by my opinion that the PS3 had a more impressive unveiling than Xbox 360 did.

    Is that because I'm biased? You could look at the volume of Xbox games I've played and loved in the last few months alone (and the lengths I went to to blag some particularly lovely Jade Empire artwork to frame for the living room of my new house!) and make that judgement. I own every current-generation console and handheld, and quite honestly, play no favourites between them. I can honestly say that on the several occasions I've met and chatted with J Allard, I've genuinely liked him a lot, and the same goes for many of the other Xbox team members, past and present. All the rest of the EG staff have similar stories; Pat's last job was editing a rather good Xbox magazine, in fact!

    As to the sub-heading on the article, which some people have a problem with... Well, I'm throwing up my hands in despair at this point. Some of you seem to want us to be able to encapsulate the ENTIRE meaning of the article in a one-line quote. Sadly, wonderful though myself, Tom and Kristan may be, none of us are actually capable of curing cancer through laying on of hands, turning water into wine, or making Norwich win the Premiership (sorry Kristan!). If readers are incapable of reading the article body, I really don't think we can tak responsibility for them running off with false impressions from the headlines and subheadings we write. We assume intelligence in our readers, and we'd like if you would too :)

    In summary; we're not about to apologise for stating our honest, and I believe well-founded, opinions. We love Xbox, we're interested by Xbox 360 (and love many of its games - look out for some particularly glowing previews later this week), but we felt that PS3 outclassed it at its coming-out party. We're not declaring a victor in the overall war, and have never claimed to; there's a long time until November, let alone until next year's PS3 launch, and anything can (and probably will) happen. And we will, absolutely, continue to call them as we see them, describe spades as spades, hold contentious opinions, annoy fanboys, and hopefully hold the respect and attention of those people who just genuinely love games, in all forms, shapes and sizes, as much as we do.

  • Shinji #252 7 years ago

    ... Wow, that was longer than I thought it would be. Anyone fancy a beer? :)

  • Scimarad #253 7 years ago

    Well said.

  • Les #254 7 years ago

    Indeed.

  • captain-future #255 7 years ago

    @Shinji

    right opinion:
    I wrote it somewhere before that I think that EG has used "opioniated" style to report from E3. Of course you will not apologize... what for? I like to disagree with Eurogamer (as I also stated before).

    wrong topic:
    personally I find it a pitty that you post it here. you should've posted it in the J Allard Interview topic because you really really grilled J Allard while handling Phill Harrison with velvet gloves.

    "everything in the demos was real-time" and "then composited
    in a video editor" yeah right...
    Edited by 1 at 23/05/05 @ 23:13

  • Shinji #256 7 years ago

    captain-future - I tried to explain that a bit in the J Allard thread. Ultimately, there are less things to grill Harrison on than Allard, because his console is far further away from launch, so the details are less set in stone.

    We got him saying that the tech demos were real-time but the game footage wasn't. That's an honest, reasonable answer - I don't see what more I could have pushed for here, at this point in time. The tech demos WERE blatantly real-time, because we could watch them being controlled live; the game footage, he admits, wasn't. I honestly think the Harrison interview only seems soft because he wasn't evasive in his answers, and therefore left me with less room to press him than Allard did with Kristan. Whether he outright lied is another question entirely - I personally don't believe so, but others may have a different perspective.

  • tengu #257 7 years ago

    They're beyond reasoning with.

  • Scimarad #258 7 years ago

    As I said somewhere else; People seem to have got themselves in a position where Harrision is the villain and Allard is good guy somehow. Personally I actually quite like Harrison based on his presentation in the press conference. On the other hand Allard just pisses me off with all 'Faux Cool' crap AND that comment about the PS2 not living up to it's tech demos which is blatantly not true and easy to verify.

    Difference is, I'm mature enough not let my opinions of the people twist my opinion of what they are saying - unlike some people apparently.

  • KnickKnack #259 7 years ago

    Shinji, while I have always repsected and read this site for the quality reviews and interesting members of the forums, I can't help but feel you really were hoodwinked by the sony boys, despite what you might say.

    I can't figure out how else you can arrive at the conclusion that Sony outclassed Microsoft, based on renders and some tech demos. How does that signify what the "real next gen" is going to be? In the end, the only logical explanation is that you actually thought the renders were real. Heres a quote from another article on eurogamer:

    "But the biggest impression was probably left by MotorStorm from UK-based Evolution, which threw so much mud and so many explosions at the viewer that we lost count. Mud would splatter the screen, the guy would glance at the speedo, the wipers would come on only for a bike to land on the windshield and the car to be propelled through the air and explode, and the camera move on to the next one. Hyperbole is inevitable, but we're probably going to have to come up with an entirely new vernacular to articulate just how "exhilarating", "jaw-dropping" and all the rest this stuff really is in light of what we've been sitting in front of for the past five years"

    You're talking about a render like it was in-game. Am I missing something though, is there some other reason, other than the impressive renders, that made you know for sure that PS3 was the "real next gen" and had someway "outclassed" the real in-game footage from the likes of Microsoft? Seriously, I'd like to know what it was that brought you to this logical conclusion.

    May you always have your own opinions, may you always tell it like you see it, but for the love of god may you always put your hand up and admit that even experienced journos like yourselves can get it wrong sometimes.

  • Feanor #260 7 years ago

    Very well put, KnickKnack. The Eurogamer guys just don't seem to realize that they talked about prerendered videos like they were gameplay footgae, and coming out after the fact to say "Oh we always knew it was rendered" just doesn't wash.

  • Shinji #261 7 years ago

    Wondered how long it'd take our favourite cheerleader to show up. Hi Feanor! :)

    Regarding the footage... We were shown pre-recorded video which is, according to the developers we spoke to, the people behind the hardware (both at Sony and at NVIDIA) and a number of third party developers working on the hardware but not showing demos at the presentation, very representative of the graphical quality that PS3 will be capable of producing. This stuff was extremely impressive, and we said so.

    You obviously couldn't play a game like MotorStorm from the angles and viewpoints demonstrated in the trailer video. Phil Harrison said that himself. Killzone is a more questionable one - you COULD play a game in that manner, and there's absolutely no doubt that the console COULD create a graphical experience of that quality. The question mark is over whether the developer can create an experience with that level of quality and intensity; that's the kind of stuff that's held back by budget and time constraints, not the console hardware. You need to throw animators and gameplay scripters at the problem.

    I also think we're interpreting the word "render" pretty differently. These things are created very carefully so that the render process matches the spec of what the machine can do - they're not just pumped out of 3D Studio or Maya at high settings to make everything look pretty and shiny. Also, it's my understanding that many of the game footage clips shown were actually rendered with a real PS3 graphics engine, but not at full speed, and then put together to look right in a video editing application (which is fairly common practice even with "real" game footage - loads of companies release game trailers which have been rendered out of their game engine with framerate problems that are subsequently ironed out by some judicious nipping and tucking in Adobe Premiere or Final Cut Pro).

    And then there's the specifications. Regardless of Microsoft's FUD, those specs are damn impressive - and while I wouldn't be prepared to say that based just on my own technical knowledge, I spent a lot of last week (and this week so far) talking to game developers who really know their shit about this kind of stuff, and their perspectives on it have reinforced my own rather than challenging it. I'll be taking their word over the word of posters on the IGN forum, thanks very much :)

    Considering all that, I think it's pretty fucking unfair to imply that we got this wrong on anything other than a personal opinion level (where of course, there really isn't a right or wrong). Those demos were awesome demonstrations of what the system could be capable of in the right hands. I have no doubt that much like the PS2 demos years ago, in three or four years time (or less, given how much easier PS3 is to develop for) we'll be looking back at them and realising that real games actually look BETTER.

    Of course, in saying that, I fail to display the trendy Sony-bashing cynicism that's so "in" this month! :)

  • Feanor #262 7 years ago

    Hey, I think Eurgamer is the best videogame web-site on the Internet. I just think, as does KnickKnack and many others, that there were obvious problems with your E3 coverage. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and all the media at E3 got to do was watch a video of PS3 pudding that wasn't even cooked in a PS3 oven! :)

    Can't you see that claiming the PS3 to be the "real next generation" when nobody in the world has so much as played a game running on a PS3 dev kit is just nonsense? In fact you could say that it was "pretty fucking unfair". And I for one am not a Sony basher at all. I'll be getting a PS3 eventually for Xenosaga 3, Final Fantasy XIII and a dozen other PS3 exclusives. If I came across a web-site that said Xbox 360 was the real next gen based on the information/spin MS has put out post-E3, I would have the same problems I have with Eurogamer for claiming the PS3 humbled the 360 technically.

  • KnickKnack #263 7 years ago

    I think the whole issue of how a journalist balances critical discussion and unbiased opinion is a slippery slope, and so I'm not going to try and argue with you. You don't agree that Eurogamer's report from E3 was anything other than simply "expressing opinion" and not the flamebait that I saw it as being.

    Needless to say, I'm not unhappy with any website expressing opinion, but I do want a level of journalistic integrity when it comes to reporting the news, and in this instance, the developments from Microsoft and Sony at E3 have been woefully reported. I don't think it's fair for you to hide behind the idea that just because it's your opinion, there is no right and wrong. You have a responsibility to your readers to get them the facts, and the facts above all else.

    And so you know, I've been working in the games industry now for 3 years, and I've been doing computer graphics for over 10. It doesn't make me a know-it-all by any means - I'm not a producer :) - but I know a render when I see one, whether it's Max, XSI, Maya, Lightwave, Brazil, VRay, Mental Ray or a realtime demo running on a graphics card. The biggest giveaway is usually the motion blur (great motion blur is really hard to do in-game. It's very possible, and is definately going to happen on this next generation of console, but is very hard to do on a per-pixel basis across all the objects and on the entire screen; Killzone and Motor Storm had amazing quality motion blur, whereas Gears of War and many other real games had none).

  • Les #264 7 years ago

    "If I came across a web-site that said
    Xbox 360 was the real next gen based on the information/spin
    MS has put out post-E3, I would have the same problems I
    have with Eurogamer for claiming the PS3 humbled the 360
    technically."

    It's not just Sony saying PS3 is the more powerful one, 3rd party developers are stating it too. Those guys have used the actual dev-kits and they of all people should know.

  • Scimarad #265 7 years ago

    But if all the evidence points towards the PS3 totally outclassing the Xbox360 why should Eurogamer NOT say it? So what if they offended a bunch of people who seem somehow genetically predisposed to dislike Sony?

    Everybody seems to be recycling the same old crap without actually answering any of what Shinji said!

  • Feanor #266 7 years ago

    "But if all the evidence points towards the PS3 totally outclassing the Xbox360 why should Eurogamer NOT say it?"

    Because the evidence DOESN'T do anything of the sort. The main in-game (not prerendered) evidence for the PS3 being more powerful is an Unreal 3 demo that doesn't look any better than Gears of War. And judging consoles based on press release tech specs is no better, especially when the tech behind each console is hardly straightforward to understand, especially the PS3's tech. You don't have to look far to find tech sites who know a lot more than Eurogamer questioning if the PS3 is really that much more powerful.

    If the PS3 isn't more powerful than the 360 then something is seriously wrong given that the PS3 will launch 6 months or more after the 360 does. But anyone who claims to know today that the PS3's technology clearly outclasses or humbles the 360's is full of crap.

  • Les #267 7 years ago

    "The main in-game (not prerendered) evidence for the PS3 being
    more powerful is an Unreal 3 demo that doesn't look any
    better than Gears of War."

    The PS3 version had a steady frame rate.

  • Scimarad #268 7 years ago

    "Because the evidence DOESN'T do anything of the sort"

    Well, excuse me but I believe it was Eurogamer who saw this stuff first hand and Eurogamer who interviewed developers all of which seemed to indicate that their response was justified. I don't believe you have done either of those things...

    Guess whose opinion I'm more likely to respect.

  • moggsy #269 7 years ago

    But anyone who claims to know today that the PS3's technology clearly outclasses or humbles the 360's is full of crap

    What even the developers who own both dev kits? I've not seen such rabid fanboyism since I was at school (quite some years ago).

    It's EG's current opinion that the PS3 is shaping up to offer more impressive gaming experiences than the XBOX 360.

    Does this mean EG think the PS3 will have all of the best games? No.
    Does this mean EG think you'll have more fun on the PS3 than the XBOX 360? No.
    Does this mean EG think that Sony has already won the next gen battle? No.

    They've simply expressed an opinion based on the material which is currently available i.e. theoretical end products from BOTH companies. I can't see why anyone has a problem with this. The more intelligent readers have lapped the EG articles up with the stage now set for an epic console war between Sony and Microsoft and maybe even Nintendo (the underdog but don't write them off yet).

    So quit whining about EG's coverage and take your ringside seat for the most interesting console battle there has been in quite some years...

  • Scimarad #270 7 years ago

    Exactly

  • Dizzy #271 7 years ago

    >It's not just Sony saying PS3 is the more powerful one, 3rd
    >party developers are stating it too. Those guys have used
    >the actual dev-kits and they of all people should know.

    Quite amazing since there are no real Cell chips yet...

  • Les #272 7 years ago

    "Quite amazing since there are no real Cell chips yet..."

    Well, actually is does exist. I don't think it's in mass production just yet, but a couple of months ago Sony presented the first finished Cell processors.

  • Feanor #273 7 years ago

    "What even the developers who own both dev kits? I've not
    seen such rabid fanboyism since I was at school (quite some
    years ago). "

    Fuck you're dumb. Just because someone has a different opinion doesn't make them a fanboy. I have a PS2 with 20+ games, am definitely going to get a PS3 and I'm a fanboy? Grow up a little. Not even the Xbox 360 dev kits are final hardware, the PS3 won't be released for a year, MS have released a wad of information/spin/hype claiming the 360 will be more powerful, but yet we ALREADY know that the PS3 humbles the 360 tech wise? Please.

    Which developer who owns both dev kits has said that the PS3 humbles the 360? That's something krudster said, not any quoted developer.

    "The PS3 version had a steady frame rate."

    we don't know exactly what the PS3 version was running on, while the Xbox 360 version was running on an actual dev kit that is claimed to be 1/3 as powerful as the final Xbox 360 will be. Do try to keep up.

    "Does this mean EG think that Sony has already won the next
    gen battle? No."

    But EG do think the PS3 is the real next generation, which means they think the Xbox 360 is not really a next generation console. So, in fact, EG must believe there will be no next gen battle as Sony is the only competitor.
    Edited by 1 at 25/05/05 @ 14:42

  • moggsy #274 7 years ago

    Fuck you're dumb.

    Pot kettle black...

  • Les #275 7 years ago

    "we don't know exactly what the PS3 version
    was running on, while the Xbox 360 version was running on an
    actual dev kit that is claimed to be 1/3 as powerful as the
    final Xbox 360 will be. Do try to keep up."

    According to Epic, the PS3 version was running on actual PS3 hardware. The CLAIM that the dev kits are 1/3 as powerful as the final xbox360 will be was made by poor M$. But of course everything they say is the truth, right Feanor?

  • vrln #276 7 years ago

    Shinji:

    First of all, thanks for the (very) thorough reply - I already promised to quit posting here, but I quess promises are meant to be broken. I still can't exactly say that I agree with all of your points though.

    I'm not trying to tell that I'm supporting a vision of a site that has no opinions whatsoever. I do still believe though, that these opinions should not affect articles in this way - what I mean by this is that opinion articles in my opinion are better suited for specific blogs or articles that have specifically marked as editorial opinions. Something like "Our take on the E3 PR" or something similar. I respect your opinion about you having made a conscious decision to have an opinionated stance this time, but I just can't see why this stance had to go as far as it did, to actually flagging the first release-articles with statements like "The Real Next Generation". You do of course have your arguments for it, but I simply don't feel you have been equally fair to all parties.

    I'm not sure if all that was directly targetted to me, but I have never targetted your (or this sites) journalistic professionalism as a whole. I have been very blunt about certain articles though in my replies to people here that have supported (in my opinion) pretty far fetched stances of journalism in general. By this I have never meant the entire EG content as a whole. Quite the opposite in fact, I stated many times that I actually like almost everything on the site - especially the writing style, which is very critical (and in addition rational, which is something not that many sites share). I'd be lying if I said that I don't feel that these recent E3 articles (some, not all of them) have been in a very different style from my point of view at least though. What I have targetted is these few recent articles which do not have the same usual style that in my opinion everything else here shares. I've actually read this site for a pretty long time, but never actually got the urge to create an account here.

    I've also never implied that you are kids who walked into their "first E3" and took the bait - I've seen previous E3 coverage from this site too and I still stand by my opinion that I don't think they share the same journalistic style. What I simply don't agree with is that how can you have such strong opinions from the little that Sony showed so far? I have absolutely nothing against someone stating that they felt the PS3 showing was very good and the MS one was clearly more problematic, but article topics like "The Real Next Generation" go a bit too far if you ask me.

    Nor have I ever claimed that you actually said the KillZone trailer for example was fully in-game, but I do believe that was "in between the lines" in your PS3 coverage, especially since it was very positive on Sony's part. At least it was not presented in a critical way. I've watched all of the press conferences and I would still say that the KillZone2 trailer in particular looks as if from another console compared to the (proven) real-time UT2007 demonstration. I wasn't really talking about the various (proven) real-time tech demos Sony showed - only about the ones that seem to have made the biggest impression, KillZone2 in particular.

    I'll take back some of my comments, I agree I went too far. I quess I took everything a bit too seriously, especially after replying to certain (not all) posts that may have been more or less related to trolling. For one, I'll take back the apology remark - but I still disagree with you on some points though. For example, I'm fully aware that you guys are experienced journalists, but I still can't come to any other conclusion than that you "took the bait from Sony" a bit too heavily, after reading some of the certain E3 articles. The introduction text in the Allard review, from my point of view, seems to prove this - the general sense of criticism and sceptism is simply very different there and I feel alot of people would agree with that. I'm not that sure anymore if it's meant as some sort of small "oops" statement, but I at least can't help to see it as anything else. The style is simply very different compared to the initial E3 reports. I'm fully aware it was written by someone else, but the general style on this site is very similar no matter who wrote it - I believe you guys have all a pretty similar writing style.

    No I don't think you are biased in a "real way", but I still would say that EG took the bait pretty hard this time :) I have to remind here that I've always just talked about this E3 coverage, I don't think this site has any bias anywhere else. Sure there are some reviews that alot of Xbox fans don't agree with, but I have to admit they are not "flamebait" material - they're still backed up by valid arguments. In my personal opinion the Halo 1 review is the only Xbox review I actually disagree with, and I think this site has a pretty fair and balanced view usually. By usually I mean that this E3 stuff is the exception. I simply can't come to any other conclusion than that these recent E3 articles do not share the same amount of sceptical criticism that you guys usually have. And by this I don't really mean being biased, that's a statement I have used in a wrong context a few times here - what I mean is that EG's coverage "took the hype bait" and ignored their usual standards in sceptism and criticism for articles related to the next-gen console unveilings.

    About the sub-heading, I've never said that you should be able to encapsulate the entire meaning of an article in one single line. Franktly I'm fully aware that's impossible. What I've been talking (and sometimes rambling) about, is that I simply don't see why the one single line has to be exactly this? Especially since it's actually proven false in the actual interview itself. I know Harrison explains it pretty well in the actual interview, but I do find it misleading in the way that "demos" is a very general term and simply believe this one line gives a false first impression of the actual interview itself. I'm not claiming you would have had to be able to wrap up the entire interview in one single line, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, but what I stand by is that anything except this one line would have been good. I do agree that you should of course assume that your readers have a certain level of intelligence, but I still stand by my opinion that the topic is misleading and a pretty bad choice. It is of course actually clarified within the interview itself, but it's a question of principle. In my opinion that's irrelevant - what matters is that the topic chosen does not accurately display the article (by this I don't mean it should display it as a whole, simply that it shouldn't contain misleading elements). By this I'm not trying to give you lessons in journalism, frankly I'm fully aware that you know and understand it alot better than I do. I still don't exactly see how you feel there's nothing wrong about the topic itself though. I'm not trying to tell this is a huge mistake, but it's just something that definately cought my eye.

    You may say that you are not declaring a winner yet, but I just feel some of your articles do not represent that feeling. What I'm talking about is, for example, the PS3 "The Real Next Generation" vs. "The Undiluted Hyperbole", which seems to have a very strong "Xbox360 looks like a next Dreamcast while PS3 is the Real Thing (tm)" -feeling. I'm aware that isn't exactly declaring a winner, but it is a very strong point of view to take after seeing the first tech demos and not much (close to zero) actual PS3 gameplay material. Sites should have opinions and stand behind them, it's just that in my opinion EG went too far this time. I also cannot fail to miss the introduction in the Allard interview, which has a very different tone compared to the first E3 articles about the "Real Next Generation", which sounds almost as if directly from one of Sony's PR advertisements. To clarify a bit, as I already said I'm not criticising the fact that you found Sony's show more impression, but I simply don't feel that the articles were as fair and balanced (sorry for using a Fox news term, that was not mean to be a "in-between-the-lines" insult) as the usual content and news coverage on EG. As for standing by your opinions, I agree with some of them, not all though, but I do respect them. I still would have expected some sort of clarification (apology is a too strong word perhaps) about certain things though, if I said I wouldn't I'd be lying. This doesn't mean that i don't respect this site - I'll continue reading it and still hold it in high regard. Obviously one can't always agree with everything. I hope you didn't take this as a flame, this is in no way intended as such. Keep up the good work btw. I'll continue posting comments after all I think. Discussions like these are pretty interesting (and rare) on gaming sites.

    I'll post another comment on the Allard thread too, with replies to certain other things.

  • moggsy #277 7 years ago

    But EG do think the PS3 is the real next generation

    So Feanor, to sum up, you're getting your knickers in a twist about one slightly over the top headline? Headlines are there to draw people into an article. You did read the article, didn't you...?

  • Les #278 7 years ago

    "EG's coverage
    "took the hype bait" "

    What hype? Sony didn't hype anything, M$ did. And that backfired.

  • Smugglarn #279 7 years ago

    What about the jaggies seen in some demos?!

  • vrln #280 7 years ago

    Les: What hype? For example:

    - "the next generation starts when we say so"
    - "Xbox360 is just Xbox 1.5 - we are the real next generation" -style claims
    - the whole KillZone2 "in-game trailer" controversy
    - the very large amount of prerendered game trailers they showed
    - performance claims of the PS3 being clearly superior compared to the Xbox360, yet still showing close to none actual interactive gameplay footage running on prototype PS3 hardware

  • vrln #281 7 years ago

    I do agree though that MS made a mistake by showing too much stuff that was in development. In my opinion they should have just showed PGR3, Kameo and Gears of War (playable) and just say that these other titles are in development and will be out pretty soon too, but we're saving showing them for later.

  • Feanor #282 7 years ago

    "Fuck you're dumb.

    Pot kettle black... "

    You called me an anti-Sony fanboy when the PS2 is my favourite console and the console I have the most games for. Therefore, you're the dumb one, not me.

    "According to Epic, the PS3 version was running on actual PS3
    hardware. The CLAIM that the dev kits are 1/3 as powerful as
    the final xbox360 will be was made by poor M$. But of course
    everything they say is the truth, right Feanor?"

    The PS3 isn't final yet, the Xbox 360 isn't final yet. I don't take anything big, profit-driven companies like $ony or M$ tell us as the truth. You'd do well to do the same. All I'm saying is it's too early to judge exactly how much more powerful the PS3 will be than the Xbox. Why is that such an awful position to take?

    "But EG do think the PS3 is the real next generation

    So Feanor, to sum up, you're getting your knickers in a
    twist about one slightly over the top headline? Headlines
    are there to draw people into an article. You did read the
    article, didn't you...?"

    I read all of EG's E3 coverage, something you don't seem to have done. There was plenty more than one headline. Now go away, little man.
    Edited by 1 at 25/05/05 @ 16:54

  • moggsy #283 7 years ago

    Feanor, so you're not denying that you wear knickers then?

  • Les #284 7 years ago

    Vlrn: Sony came, Sony saw, Sony conquered. Without building any hype in advance. Sony let the PS3 create the hype itself. Claiming that Sony determines when the next generation begins is no hype, that's being arrogant.

    As for the Xbox 1.5 remark, again from a conceptual standpoint, Xbox 360 is not a great leap forward. Xbox 360 can roughly do the same as the current Xbox but with way more power. While the entertainment centre is not exactly a new idea (Sony developed it when designing the PS2), Cell technology is. Whether linking Cell appliances will really happen or not in the future, it is a totally new concept (although I doubt it will impact gaming. A game which states "in order to enjoy this game you need to link at least 4 PS3s together" will not sell many copies) in consumer electronics (distributed computing itself of course is not).

    During the PS3 presentation Sony NEVER said Killzone was realtime, nor did they say this of any of the other clips shown. I see those clips more like trailers to sell the games themselves than to sell the PS3. Like every current FF trailer is filled with CGI. I never expected the same cinematic experience as in MotorStorm or Killzone to actually happen in-game, but I do expect this kind of graphical detail from a next generation console. DOA4 quality graphics are not a big enough improvement for me to warrant buying a new console. Whether PS3 delivers that or not, I do not know.

    Fight Night and the Unreal demo were real-time though and even the tech demonstrations were more impressive than most 360 demo's. M$'s claim that the dev kits running their stuff were only at 30% of 360 power came after they were outclassed by PS3. And Epic (not Sony) says that the Cell dev kits are also running way below their final specs. I agree with you that M$ did itself a major disservice if they showed gamefootage that did not accurately represent their games when they will ship. But that's their fault. I think it's more likely that M$'s trailers underestimated the power of 360 than that the PS3 trailers overstated the power of PS3.

    But we will have to wait and see until PS3 finaly launches...
    Edited by 1 at 25/05/05 @ 19:34

  • vrln #285 7 years ago

    Les:

    Without building any hype in advance? What exactly are the tens of different CELL hyping news announcements that have been around for a very long time already? There's been hype about the CELL (which is the core of the PS3) for years already. I agree though that the "next generation begins when we say so" isn't really hype in a way, it's indeed foolish arrogance. It's exactly the same kind of attitude that Nintendo used before they lost their dominant status. It is hype in the way that it relates to the other comments, especially the Xbox 1.5 one. It has a "hidden" note about the claimed technological superiority of the PS3.

    The Xbox 1.5 remark on the other hand is very far fetched. The Xbox360 is a giant leap forward, there's no way around it really. Everything is custom designed (unlike with the Xbox) for the console. It's a completely different design attitude this time. The GPU is a prime example, it's really custom tech created for console gaming this time. If your criteria for being not a giant leap forward is doing roughly the same as before but not with as much power, there hasn't been much real development for ages. The PS3 is less revolutionary than Sony wants you to believe. It's the same rhetoric they used with the PS2 as well.

    Sony did not invent the entertainment centre, I'm not even sure if that can be attributed to any single company, but when the PS2 came it out surely wasn't something Sony innovated. The linking of CELL processors is pure utopia with todays technology, the latency and bandwith issues make it impossible for anything other than running SETI@home or something similar. The CELL architecture does have it's strong points with that, but it's not like parellel processing via the internet is impossible right now. Distcc for Linux, SETI@home and so on, the list goes on. For gaming purposes of being a "CELL" in a network over the internet is pure utopia right now, purely because of technological issues. Perhaps in 20 years. Originally Sony was supposed to have many CELL chips in the PS3, and later on it's just one.

    Yeah Sony didn't say it was realtime, but if you show a "gameplay video" it's exactly what you mean, even if you don't actually say the words. Either way it's misleading. If you except that amount of graphical detail, my quess is that you'll be bitterly disappointed when the PS3 is finally out. Perhaps stuff like that will happen after 5 years (the competition will probably look similar then too), but for launch titles or even 1st gen titles it's pretty unrealistic. Gears of War is pretty close to that quality btw, I just have to wonder why MS showed all of that incomplete software when they could have just hugely hyped those games that look the best.

    DOA4 is the worst looking Xbox360 game if you ask me, it looks almost as if they had just only finished porting DOA ultimate to the 360 and then made some new textures for it. It's not a very fair comparison, you could use Kameo/Gears of War instead. I agree though, if DOA4 is what games will actually look like I don't think it's a real next generation either, but that's not going to be the case - the hardware specs are very impressive. The biggest suprise is why they even decided to show something that's so easy to attack.

    Tech demos are always more impressive than the actual games, I don't get your logic at all there. It's a completely different thing to have an actual game running than a technology demo that can use all the power just to draw one certain small techdemo. There are just so many things that will bring down the graphics in an actual game. Fight Night and Unreal 2007 are both multiplatform titles that will be out on both systems. It's also not really fair to judge the few real-time demos Sony showed against the worst in-development games MS showed. It would be fairer to compare to the technologically most advanced Xbox360 games, Gears of War in particular, which looks just as good or even better than those two demos.

    Indeed, it was a bad mistake from Microsofts part to show too much stuff that was in development. I fully agree that it's better to have trailers that might overstate the performance, than trailers that are actually running on dev kits that have 30% of the final system power. There's not much I can argue with you here. As you said though, there's no way to know until the PS3 actually launches. What counts for many people though, is that they have already been playing next-gen stuff for almost a year then :) (or perhaps even longer if Sony does the standard "Europe-trick" again).

  • Les #286 7 years ago

    Vlrn: if a rubber DUCK looks better rendered than actual game character models, in my view that says something...

    As for Gears of War, the footage that I saw was of poor quality and it's hard to judge it on that. If the guys that actually saw it say it looked great, than I'm sure it does.

    LFC won the CL! Am I glad I decided to watch the second half despite the 0-3 score!
    Edited by 1 at 25/05/05 @ 22:33

  • vrln #287 7 years ago

    Les: There are many videos of Gears of War around, including one where Cliffy B plays it in real-time. And yes it does look as good or better than any real-time stuff that was shown on the PS3.

    Regarding the duck comment, well, if the entire system is set to draw ducks, I don't see why it shouldn't look better? Tech demos always (99.99% of the time) look better than the final products, just look at Nvidia's or ATI's various demos you can get for the (windows) PC.

  • Les #288 7 years ago

    Well, I still say the duck has way more personality than the stiff Gears of War character. ;-)
    Edited by 1 at 26/05/05 @ 16:22

  • vrln #289 7 years ago

    That's another thing, there are alot of old games out there that have more personality than anything on any current consoles if you ask me :)

    edit: I found something I just have to post. I present you the original PS2 hype article with some absolutely fantastic gems: htt p://money.cnn.com/1999/03/01/life/playstation/

    So the PS2 has 50 times the 3d power as the Dreamcast? Toy Story in real time? Yeah sure, Tekken Tag Tournament looked pretty "advanced" (*cough*) next to Soul Calibur (especially on VGA) :) Comedy gold, I rest my case.
    Edited by 5 at 26/05/05 @ 17:45

  • Les #290 7 years ago

    They don't say it has 50 times the power of Dreamcast in that story but something way more vague. As for the Toy Story quote, was that made by someone from Sony? Can't see it in the article, which is in general of poor quality. If so, than of course that was an exaggeration and not very smart.

  • vrln #291 7 years ago

    "PlayStation 2, though, is claiming to be able to handle 50 times more 3-D image data than the Dreamcast, allowing it to create characters similar in appearance to those in the Walt Disney film "Toy Story."

    And if your going to pick on the "3-D image data", please, you know exactly what is meant there - arguing about semantics is fairly far fetched. I highly doubt CNN posts anything that hasn't come from Sony in such an article. How about just admitting that it was overhyped?
    Edited by 3 at 26/05/05 @ 19:34

  • Les #292 7 years ago

    I don't deny that there was much hype around PS2. But I'm not totally sure that all that hype can be traced back to Sony. Back in those days gaming was less mainstream than it is now and reporters in regular media clearly didn't have a clue what they were reporting on. Even today that's often the case.

  • vrln #293 7 years ago

    So you are actually implying that the media made up (a certain amount of) claims of the PS3? The media does not make up such stuff, every single thing can be traced to the Sony's PR department. Journalistic principles apply no matter how big the industry is, and it was big before the PS2 was even released. The gaming industry was huge back when the PS2 was just being hyped, things have not changed that much in that sector. You seem to imply that the PS2 has "changed" the entire gaming industry to the point that before the worlds largest mainstream journalistic sites before could have made up claims regarding it, which I don't exactly agree on :)

    edit: I removed some stuff that was uncalled for, eventhough I do find you to be sometimes supporting Sony fairly militantly :p

    Edited by 7 at 27/05/05 @ 13:06

  • Les #294 7 years ago

    I was talking about PS2. Seems very clear to me, this time.

  • #295 7 years ago

    Click on the link if you want to know how much Sony are
    crapping there pants about the Xbox 360!

    http://www.ccfx.net/nextbo xforum/viewtopic.php?t=2322&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

  • captain-future #296 7 years ago

    late but finally the truth:

    from PSM magazine back in June, but thanks to my non-french abilities not discovered until now:

    http: //www.jeux-france.com/images2_4_10872.html

    the footage [killzone demo] came from the game engine running on a PS3 alpha kit, but was sped up from only about 5 frames per second to 60fps for the demo

    so in fact it was real-time just @ 5 frames per seconds - pretty clever marketing gag.

  • adiva #297 7 years ago

    when is the ps3 avaliable in the uk

  • Arwin #298 6 years ago

    In retrospect, this was one of the most revealing interviews on the PS3 since E3, and I find it very intriguing how much of it turns out to be true, right down to the location free capabilities of the PSP and PS3. If June 15 sees the PS3's launch (last week of Spring) then March 15 (last week of Winter) can be that magical date on which we get the final info. The Xbox 360 also really kicked off 3 months before launch, with actual launch date information and lots of game info being released in that timeframe. If Sony launches the PS3 around June 15th in Japan, and are ready for production now, they have plenty of time to get enough PS3s ready for launch. It would also be a perfect date, as all the world is watching during E3 and without a doubt the PS3 would take center stage again. Launching the system proper in the wake of that will create a lot of buying energy - only events like E3 make the daily newspapers after all. It all makes a lot of sense and is going to be very, very exciting.