Microsoft's J Allard on Xbox 360

By Kristan Reed Published 20 May, 2005

Creativity over graphical fidelity.

The next generation console fight kicked off like never before this week with drama, claims, counterclaims, rumours, whispers and loud opinions that would put a soap opera series to shame. It's been compelling, controversial, surprising, disappointing and exciting all at the same time. You can't take your eyes off it for a second.

If there's any truth in anything we've seen this week it's that no one can really be that confident that know who has the advantage. There are more smoke and mirrors flying around at E3 this week than you'd find at a magic forum, and the best advice to anyone getting caught up in the intense arguments is to enjoy the show but take it all with a huge pinch of salt. Because nobody really knows yet. Be excited. Be disappointed. Be cynical. But don't claim you know any better than anyone else. Even J Allard admits as much in this revealing interview, conducted less than 48 hours after Sony conducted its pre-E3 briefing and played its PS3 hand.

As ever, Allard was in knockabout form. Self effacing, always willing to actually answer the question no matter how leading it might be, and seemingly realistic enough to accept that Sony has the edge in the graphics war this time, but that all three players have taken a different approach.

Allard seems convinced that Microsoft's superior online offering counts for a lot, and that selling to the next 100 million consumers (no sign of billion figures here, tellingly) is not about the graphics. Some may find this a telling statement from a man that spent a long time boasting about the superior power of the Xbox 1, but whether you agree with that statement or not is certain to rage elsewhere. Here at Eurogamer, for us it will forever be about the games, and we certainly took time to grill Allard on its strength in this area - just what's the killer app this time, and why didn't they put fully playable 360 titles on their stand? Read on to find out what one of Microsoft's key Xbox figures has to say...

'Microsoft's J Allard on Xbox 360' Screenshot 1

Eurogamer: What did you feel the reaction was the to the pre-E3 presentation?

J Allard: The reactions over the past week have all been really good, the reactions after the Monday night event were all really positive. People are really excited about what we're going to do with the brand work in terms of getting serious about broadening the audience.

A lot of people talk to me, it's interesting, I think there's probably a contrast between people who are having their first E3, and they don't really know how to make the jump between where we are today to holiday, versus the people who followed us from the very very beginning who say 'I remember in 2001when Halo wasn't that good,' and were saying 'it was a mistake you bought Bungie, the frame rate was bad and how can you show stuff on Alpha kits? It's just not going to happen', and I know how much further things are going to progress in the next couple of months.

Eurogamer: Is that why you kept Xbox 360 games away from the show floor in terms of being able to play them?

J Allard: Well, there are live demos downstairs of several different games, and even those you have to look at with a grain of salt because they're running on Alpha, so we get to final hardware and final game production, you know, it's not showing the full potential.

Eurogamer: But yet SEGA, EA and others have lots of Xbox 360 playable demo stations...

J Allard: Well we have kits running downstairs with Condemned; we're doing it as a controlled demo primarily. We have a different challenge than the publishers do. The publishers all want to show their games, so we've got to show a balanced view. We're still committed to the Xbox 1 business; we've got 200 games coming out this year that we've dedicated to the majority of our booth. [It's] what the majority of our business is going to be this year.

Our Xbox 360 launch is of paramount importance between what the journalists get to see hands on, at the publishers themselves, what they're going to see hands on here, walkthroughs and whatnot, what they got to see in the briefing and the assets we'll be releasing and the frequency at which we'll be reaching out to people between now and launch. Really we want more of the attention on Xbox 1.

Eurogamer: What are you going to be positioning as the killer app for launch?

J Allard: We're not positioning a killer app for launch.

Eurogamer: Is there a Halo equivalent for launch?

J Allard: There will be. I think there will be. Again, E3 2001 was before a holiday launch, and we thought that Halo had a good run, we thought Gotham had a good run, we thought Dead Or Alive had a good run for it, and everyone in the press thought Halo was doomed, so...WHO KNOWS?! You know, who knows? I mean it's a little early to call the winners? It's not up to us to call the winners, let the gamers decide.

Eurogamer: Will you be cheaper than your competitors for launch?

J Allard: I don't know what our price is going to be, and I don't know what their price is going to be. They got a lot of stuffed in, huh? Look at the back of that thing! Holy crap!

Eurogamer: Is it going to be cheaper than the Xbox launch though?

J Allard: We're trying to figure out that price point strategy right now. This is the first week we've had the opportunity to sit down with retailers, publishers, developers, the press, on a worldwide basis where everybody all has the same information and say "how are you going to launch this thing?"

It's one thing to stand up on stage Monday night and say we're going to launch this thing worldwide as closely as possible; we're going to do it all this year, all this holiday in all three territories. It's one thing to say it; it's another thing to do it. So we've got to go and figure out exactly how we're going to do that, what that means and what the price point should be.

'Microsoft's J Allard on Xbox 360' Screenshot 2

Eurogamer: Will you have an exclusive game from Square Enix?

J Allard: You're going to have to talk to Square on that one. My lips are sealed [squirms in chair]. We can only say what we said on Monday night; that's all we can say right now.

Eurogamer: But you chose to show off a game that was released three years ago on the PC and we were expecting much more maybe...

J Allard: Well, there was the other trailer he showed as well... He showed a second game as well.

Eurogamer: That was just a tech demo though

J Allard: It is.

Eurogamer: It's not a game is it?

J Allard: I'm not the one that's going to break the news for Square Enix; you're going to have to talk to those guys.

Eurogamer: Will it be exclusive though?

J Allard: You're going to have to talk to those guys! I'm just the platform guy [throws hands in the air.]

Eurogamer: How important are exclusives for the Xbox 360?

J Allard: I think exclusives, obviously, are critical, but just like I'd say that the platform power doesn't just come down to the hardware but software and services; exclusives aren't the only math, either. So, if you take exclusives out of the equation for a second, say 85 per cent of the content is shared. Well, we've got a better online service. If you want to play Madden Football, if you want to play FIFA Soccer, if you want to play Final Fantasy online we're going to be the best system to do that. I think the community of online service really plays a big part as well in the capabilities of the system.

While all you guys are gaming enthusiasts, and I am as well, the core audience of games - I can't begin to tell you the number of people who came up to me after the press conference and said I am Velocitygirl, or I am Beatbuilder, I'm really excited about the support you're going to have, the fact that I can be connected doing non gaming things as well, or I'm really excited about the industrial design and it doesn't have to be banished to the basement anymore. That this is actually a product that we're going to put in the family's room as opposed to an individual's room in the house, so I think that that's going to be an element of our success as well. It's something that consumers really want.

Eurogamer: You didn't reveal any new Microsoft [Game Studios] exclusives this time around. It was very much sequel sequel sequel sequel, whereas obviously last time you launched with a huge range of first party exclusives. This time it seemed like almost everything had a number on the end.

J Allard: Nah, there's Blue Dragon and Ninety-Nine Nights... There's certainly new content. It's hard to say Perfect Dark is a sequel. I don't know when the last time you purchased a new copy of Perfect Dark... quite a while ago! Kameo is new IP as well, so I think we've got a pretty good balance of first party. It's probably about fifty-fifty between sequels that people love and new IP that they'll be trying out that we've not talked about so far. Gears Of War is new IP as well.

'Microsoft's J Allard on Xbox 360' Screenshot 3

Eurogamer: But is that exclusive to Xbox?

J Allard: It's Xbox and PC.

Eurogamer: It's interesting. Why have you not made those Xbox/PC titles like Call Of Duty 2, Quake 4 exclusive to Xbox 360?

J Allard: I always get back to the gamers. Every decision we make is really focused on what the gamers want. A ton of our gamers are dual gamers meaning that they have PC and console because they prefer some aspects of PC, especially in FPSs. Okay, should we really make Quake an exclusive that you can't play on PC.

Eurogamer: You did exactly that with Halo, though, and that's the point. You yanked it off PC and made it an Xbox exclusive.

J Allard: No, no. We published Halo on both PC and Mac.

Eurogamer: Yes, but that was about two years later!

J Allard: We didn't talk about sequencing. Gears Of War will be on both platforms, but it might be on one before the other. That's a little bit more of a game time decision.

Eurogamer: Why is it important for you to be first in the next generation when you could end up having less power than your competitors?

J Allard: But we're talking about months! They [Sony] are buying the exact same sand as we are. They are! Believe me; I talk to every single person and company in the world that's making silicon. I know exactly what they're doing; they know exactly what we're doing. We're all buying from the same guys, right? I mean, we chose different partners on the graphics front but all three companies have the same partner on the CPU front. We have a price point to hit; they have a price point to hit, right? I mean, it's business. It's business. There's no special silicon that you can go and buy. You can decide how you want to tune your system, but what we really focused on was creating a balanced system, you know.

I don't think there's any material advantage to being four or five months late in terms of the power. If you do look at [Sony's] specification they've got - putting the silicon aside which is going to be a challenge because they've gone for such a complex architecture there - Blu-Ray is a huge problem. Blu-Ray is a power point. You can't buy a drive, right? It's a specification that people are arguing about every day, not just in the press, but in real standards fights. That's a real challenge. It's not as if those drives are being manufactured by 20 different companies that you can go and buy off the shelves, so I think that's going to be a real challenge for them. It might explain their date. We didn't think about them when we thought about our date. We thought about what was right for gaming, what was right for technology, what type would be available and went from there.

Eurogamer: Do you think developers are ready to make the leap to next gen now?

J Allard: Oh yeah, they're ready. The question is whether they're going to get all of the hardware they want at the time that they want it. I mean it's going to be a tough landing. We're doing everything we can. They've had dev kits for over a year now, Alpha kits and the software, they can implement the Live service today, so they're all building in their Live support. We even have camera support for them on the new dev kits, so they're really well prepared.

But as well prepared as we attempted to make it, it's still a tough landing. You know, you go from Alpha hardware today to Beta hardware next month, then you have to get on store shelves in a couple of months. It's going to be a fast landing, and that happens with every single [next gen system]. I think we eased them into it and gave them superior tools, so they can see our launch line up will be better than anyone elses in the next gen.

'Microsoft's J Allard on Xbox 360' Screenshot 4

Eurogamer: Did you see the PS3 tech demos?

J Allard: Yes.

Eurogamer: What did you think?

J Allard: I... I think tech demos are always fun to show. I liked crashing cars at GDC last year, and I think we did it at E3 again. I mean tech demos are fun but you've got to move on. People don't buy tech demos.

Eurogamer: How representative did you think they will be of final gameplay?

J Allard: I was looking forward to the games, because the tech demos - you remember the old man from last generation - I didn't buy a game on PlayStation 2 that had that kind of facial geometry. So I've got to move on to the games footage, and I think that's really up to...

Eurogamer: Was that not also a tech demo then?

J Allard: That was not tech demo. That was rendered.

Eurogamer: But didn't you use the same trick on Gotham 3 the other day?

J Allard: [Bounds up and down in chair, waves arms] We didn't, we didn't... First; I mean there's no trick because it was a combination of in-game footage and rendered footage, just like videogames are. So, I mean we had a combination of both those elements throughout. All the stuff that we did show that was game footage was all running on Alpha kits though, so I think it's coming along really really well.

You show the best that you can show. We tried to show things that were representative of what you're going to be able to buy. That was our part. In some cases it was lower than what we'd like people to think this system is capable of, but it's real, and we wanted to show people stuff that was real and say 'hey, launch is around the corner and you're going to buy games that look like this, you're not going to be disappointed'. We didn't want to set an expectation, and I think there was an expectation, just talking as a gamer, of Namco Girl. Remember Namco Girl on PS2, I remember saying 'I can't wait to get that game'. That game doesn't exist. That game is going to exist; the fidelity of the graphics of Namco Girl for PS2 will first ship on Xbox 360 called Dead Or Alive 4. Dead Or Alive 4 will have that kind of fidelity, but that's years after Namco Girl.

Eurogamer: So in terms of the game footage it was probably misleading to consumers who might expect [PS3 games] to look as good as that?

J Allard: Well, talking of a Spring launch, talking to developers, they don't have dev kits yet. I don't know how you get them. In terms of theoretical performance, maybe five years out, maybe it's possible.

Eurogamer: Were you surprised in any way at the quality?

J Allard: No, I was encouraged by it, actually. I know it makes for good drama because it oh, it's Microsoft versus Sony - I want gaming to get bigger. I think it's great that all three companies are all taking really different approaches and are bringing gaming to the next level in different ways. That's good. That's good for competition, that's good for the consumer, that's good for the industry, because it's going to grow the industry, and if it gives game creators more opportunities to go and push the envelope, that's great. One is pushing the envelope in online, one is pushing the envelope in wireless, you know, that's great. I'm all for it. We don't have to push the envelope in every direction.

Eurogamer: Don't you think in a place like LA that we have to create some dreams for gamers and show some renders and demos that create some hype?

J Allard: Yeah, that's why I'm not at all against what Sony did at their briefing. I think it's good to show people what they think the potential is. But our rule was we didn't want to show anything that we didn't think gamers could buy. I hope Sony did the same thing.

It's hard, it's subjective, right? I mean here you are months before you're going to ship the final hardware and Sony's a little bit further out... It's a guess! It's a calculated guess. You can do a lot of math and talk to a lot of artists and put a lot of time into it, but it's calculated. It's our best approximation of what you think people will be able to do.

'Microsoft's J Allard on Xbox 360' Screenshot 5

And, the thing is, it's so hard to characterise some of the big shifts that we see - the input is going to change dramatically. Voice and video are going to really have a big impact on gaming. You can't show that on the screen. We think that online communities, personalisation is going to have a huge impact on gaming. You can't show that visually in a 30 second exciting trailer. So I think a lot of people get conditioned. It's the easy thing to do, to condition yourself to say 'I just want to talk about the graphics shift'. It's not just about the graphics. Grand Theft Auto: QED. Grand Theft Auto had crap graphics; nobody played it for the graphics. Halo? It could have had weaker graphics, but people would have still loved it because the gameplay balance was perfect, the story was comprehensive enough, the world was exciting, the level design was great. Take the graphics down a notch, I'm still playing those games.

So we can't get all hung up as an industry and say it's all about graphic fidelity. You know, go and get Dead Or Alive [4]. What are they doing about new combo techniques? New tag teams? What they're doing with online and everything else? Are they pushing fighting to the next level and does it look better?

I kind of put the 'does it look better?' secondarily. Not because it's not important, not because I don't think we're not going to have a system to do it, but because we're almost good enough. You know, years ago when we were making Xbox, there was this debate. People talk about the Blu-Ray DVD thing [now, but] they would come in and they would say 'what are you doing about SACD and DVD Audio?' Higher fidelity audio, dadadada. I'm like 'I couldn't tell the difference between vinyl and CD!' It's more convenient, which is nice, and I can play it in my car and I don't have to screw up tapes, but I can't hear the difference, do I need better audio in my life?

We're almost at the point now visually where we're like, in videogames, do we need better visuals than what we saw on Monday night? [shrugs] A little bit. It's not the thing that's going to sell to the next 100 million people. The thing that's going to sell to the next 100 million people is creativity; creativity for labouring, creativity from a designer's point of view and so a hard drive can provide those tools. I think we're going to take graphics to the next notch, but graphics is not going to be the thing that's going to sell to the next 100 million systems.

Picture of Kristan.

About Kristan Reed

Kristan is a former editor of Eurogamer, dad, Stone Roses bore and Norwich City supporter who sometimes mutters optimistically about Team Silent getting back together.

Read more articles from Kristan by visiting the Kristan Reed archive page.

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Comments (217) Latest comment 7 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Lutz #1 7 years ago

    Good read... Graphics do not a great game make...

  • KnickKnack #2 7 years ago

    Yeah, I've been more bothered than usual about this; I think I'm just a bit disappointed in the Eurogamer staff; they've been too quick to pass opinion before getting hold of any concrete facts, and that's not why they're at E3.

    The sony fanboys want to hear all the good stuff about PS3 and the Microsoft fanboys want to hear all the good stuff about Xbox 360. You don't need condescending articles like "the real next gen" and "the undiluted hyperbole", it's bound to upset peeps.

  • drumbaby #3 7 years ago

    You got that right! :)

  • jumpdeveraux #4 7 years ago

    Wasn't it MS who were touting the most powerful next gen console before Sony wheeled out PS3.

    Now it's creativity over graphical fidelity.... despite an attack of sequelitis.

    My how quickly the marketing worm turns.

  • vrln #5 7 years ago

    Indeed nice read. Tough questions (ones that really needed to be asked though) and a very good interview. Seems like EG added a small "sorry about being carried away at first" between the lines. The Sony interview should have been as tough as this one too though, why didn't EG ask him why almost all the announced PS3 games are sequels to PS1 ones?

    This is a good example of a balanced, yet critical article. This said, I'm looking forward to the Xbox360 - their games so far have impressed me (at least alot of new IP, go Kameo and Gears of War!).

    jumpdeveraux: Attack of sequels? Sure the Xbox360 has more sequels than the first one, but still nowhere even near the amount that's been announced on the PS3 (or look at the PS2 library). I agree though, new IP is more fun (I still want Halo3 though!)
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 10:36

  • DB2k #6 7 years ago

    isnt 100 million a US billion?

  • Lutz #7 7 years ago

    No, a 1,000 million is a US billion.
    A million million is a english billion and a US trillion.

  • silver-jon #8 7 years ago

    Last paragraph sums it up for me. Earlier in the interview he's done the classic salesman's "Fear Uncertainty Doubt" thing about Sony's ability to deliver on their graphical promises, and to deliver systems with Blu-Ray by the first half of 2006. And then downplays the graphical difference by focusing on gameplay and online services. And I agree that we're just starting to reach a point with next gen grunt and HD television, where the graphical focus will plateau, and more time will be spent creating "real worlds" and imaginative gameplay.

    Let's see now. XBox360 likely to be priced at £300 on launch. 6 months to go. That's £50 aside per month. Job done.

  • silver-jon #9 7 years ago

    DB2K got it right. 100 million is the old US billion.
    The true (british) billion is a thousand million.
    A million million is a trillion.

  • HankScorpio #10 7 years ago

    nice article

  • Huntcjna #11 7 years ago

    Im still leaning very much towards alard and the 360, gears of war looks truly beautiful and I feel microsoft can do it right early this time they have learned from their mistakes and have a fabulous online template, sony seem a little rushed to me at the moment like they hate the fact that ms have brought things forward. I already know i will end up buying all 3 systems I love each of my current consoles in the same way its just the order of purchase but as I stand at the moment Im gonna be going 360>revolution>ps3. Sony haven't done enough to excite me it all looks very pretty but I frankly don't think they can put out a competitvely priced games system with that hardware spec and all this blu-ray rubbish. When I bought lastime I went gamecube>ps2>xbox now sony are very much at the back of the queue for me until they show me something to change my mind

  • valli #12 7 years ago

    Microsoft and creativity in the same phrase??

  • joey #13 7 years ago

    Sequels, sequels, why do people keep ranting about the endless sequles.

    They make them because we keep buying them.

    Just look at the PSP, great toy, bunch of warmed over PS1/PS2(ish) games, huge sucess. DS, again great toy, biggest title, a remake of SM64.

    Are Nintendo really finished because the Rev can play 20 years of old games, err, not by this count they are not.

    So, dont be surprised if the first thing you play on your next gen box, whatever one you buy, will be very familiar to the game you played the week before, but with better pictures, oh, and no lead from you to the box ;-)

  • Gurgeh #14 7 years ago

    I found that a good interview.

    "It's hard, it's subjective, right? I mean here you are months before you're going to ship the final hardware and Sony's a little bit further out... It's a guess! It's a calculated guess. You can do a lot of math and talk to a lot of artists and put a lot of time into it, but it's calculated. It's our best approximation of what you think people will be able to do."

    ...is exactly right

  • Gareth.de #15 7 years ago

    You gave Allard a much harder time than you did that guy from Sony.

    EG to Allard: All your games are fucking sequels and you have no original content. And you pulled some of that fucking rendered shit on Project Gotham 3 didn't you?

    EG to PH: You have some awesome looking games coming for PS3. We think they are all real-time. We like your real-time demos. Do you like us?


    If I take a glance at the list of games, demos etc. then they both appear to have the same percentage of sequels coming.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 12:34

  • bloodflowers #16 7 years ago

    "Voice and video are going to really have a big impact on gaming"

    Perhaps, if broadband ever moves past its current point. Existing online gaming just letting players /play/ and speak over the headset is too much for many broadband connections.

  • morriss #17 7 years ago

    Sold.

  • Lutz #18 7 years ago

    Silverjon: Wrong mate. The US, and generally accept, billion is 10^9 = 1,000,000,000.

    However there is also the "british" billion, which is 10^12 = 1,000,000,000,000.

    The trillion is the same. Standard now is 10^12, but the "british trillion" is 10^18.

    A quick google confirms this.

    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 10:55

  • Gareth.de #19 7 years ago

    Perhaps, if broadband ever moves past its current point.
    Existing online gaming just letting players /play/ and speak
    over the headset is too much for many broadband connections.

    Only in the UK where BT changed the definition of 'broadband' to 512kbit connections. In non-BT countries broadband is actually shit-hot. For the price of a 512kbit connection from BT in the UK, you can get a 20mbit connection in Sweden.

  • vrln #20 7 years ago

    valli: Yes it's quite ironic that the Xbox360 (and the original Xbox too) is actually a hugely innovative product. Microsoft can innovate especially if they are being the underdog. In the end gamers are the people who are going to win - it's only good that Sony finally has some real competition. Their keyboards and mice are also good. This is coming from a hardcore Linux user btw :)

  • tonynibbles #21 7 years ago

    *Waves arms around in air*

    That bit is exactly the same as in Team America when he's on the back of the Jeep, giving 'the' signal...

  • Gareth.de #22 7 years ago

    If you are British, on the other hand, a billion may be 1,000,000,000,000 (a million million), following the older convention. The 'American' system is now standard use in British government publications, and is becoming the norm in many other languages.

    Sorry, but I think the last person to actually use the word billion while meaning 1,000,000,000,000 died in the black death.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 10:58

  • spazmo #23 7 years ago

    I like these interviews...but...can you please stop rambling on about grafficks and powar! If Nintendo release games half as good looking, but twice the fun, who's the winner? As has been said, Games sell hardware and we have seen no games. So at the moment, XBox360 = PS3 = Revolution.

  • #24 7 years ago

    Eurogamer: What are you going to be positioning as the killer app for launch?

    J Allard: We're not positioning a killer app for launch.

    ROFL... this means:

    Eurogamer: Got a good game for the launch yet?

    J Allard: No.

  • OnlyMe #25 7 years ago

    It's weird that people are always getting so upset about more sequels. Of course that's what they're going to show. It's much easier to show off the new hardware by using existing intellectual property, instead of coming up with something entirely new. They want people to keep focus on what the hardware can do, not the games in specific. That's why they're primarly being shown as tech demos. By doing this, people can compare to the old games, and we get a more concrete understanding of what can be achieved with the new hardware. This goes for every console-maker out there.

    When the console actually is released, we'll have plenty of non-sequels, don't worry about that. We get sequels and we get new franchises. It's always been that way. On the PSone, we had Crash Bandicoot, Spyro and Ape Escape. These franchises continue to exist, but when the PS2 came out, other franchises took over. Like Ratchet and Clank, Jak and Daxter and Sly Racoon. This will probably be the case with the next generation too, old games will still exist, but they will be put in the backseat when new series comes out. Only a very few retain its popularity, like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid and Gran Turismo, and of course all the Marios and Zeldas.

  • RS3York1 #26 7 years ago

    Wow are Mr. Reed & EG putting out an unofficial "Sorry, we screwed up"?

    "If there's any truth in anything we've seen this week it's that no one can really be that confident that know who has the advantage."
    - Funny the words "PS3 - The Real Next Gen" sounds like EG thought Sony had the advantage..

    "There are more smoke and mirrors flying around at E3 this week than you'd find at a magic forum, and the best advice to anyone getting caught up in the intense arguments is to enjoy the show but take it all with a huge pinch of salt. "
    - "Enjoy the show": We already know you guys did, so much so you thought films were games & tried to push that nonsense on the rest of us.
    - "Huge pinch of salt": Perhaps this is some advice for the readers of your E3 coverage so far?

    "Because nobody really knows yet. Be excited. Be disappointed. Be cynical. But don't claim you know any better than anyone else."
    - "Nintendo concedes defeat" that sounded like EG was claiming to know better than Nintendo themselves.

    But hey, maybe EG really has noted our displeasure with them leaving their objectivity and critical thinking back in the UK...

    "EG: Don't you think in a place like LA that we have to create some dreams for gamers and show some renders and demos that create some hype?"

    ...Maybe not.

    Did Reed just ask J Allard if they *should* create some CG to create HYPE instead of a FACTUAL basis of where games are going? Goodness. Get back to the UK quick, your objectivity and our restored trust are waiting for you.
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 15:53

  • MikeTV #27 7 years ago

    "and seemingly realistic enough to accept that Sony has the edge in the graphics war this time"

    Did this bit of the interview not make the article?

  • vrln #28 7 years ago

    spazmo: MS have shown actual gameplay content (albeit in an early form running on dev kits), Sony and Nintendo haven't.

    Djini: Not really, just means that they aren't counting on just one game like the first Xbox pretty much did. What's Sony's flagship btw? The PS2 had TTT and RidgeRacer5, both are hardly flagship material. I think they are just going to cover as many genres as possible and then who knows what will turn out the "flagship", too early to say that. Kameo for example looks fantastic, that's my personal flagship game.

  • mustardkid #29 7 years ago

    can't help a chuckle at all those seemingly shocked at the amount of hype - E3 is supposed to be about hype - its a festival of hype - especially when new hardware is being launched - personally i enjoy it, it's good to get excited it's like the run up to xmas - and of course the reality will never live up to the hype but still ... dreams are nice.

  • vrln #30 7 years ago

    RS3York1: Heh, I made the same notice :) But hey at least they acknowledged it. The Sony interview could have used this tough questions too - I'm not saying they should have gone softer on Allard btw.

    mustardkid: News flash, journalism is not about creating dreams.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 11:07

  • IronGiant #31 7 years ago

    Good read, though they can add as many bells and whistles to LIVE as they like i'm still not interested in the service at all.

  • vrln #32 7 years ago

    Well I am, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. In 3 years broadband will be very very common, it's already pretty much in every household here (Finland). Sony's lack of a real online strategy will bite them sooner or later. For the record I cancelled my Xbox Live account due to lack of good games that support it (halo2 is the only one), but I'm definately opening it again this time. Is online as important as MS is saying, well, I don't know - time will tell.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 11:10

  • mustardkid #33 7 years ago

    vrin - get a life mate - they're reporting from a trade show not the front line in iraq you gotta expect the hype and excitement to spill over into the journalism or would you prefer the sort of flat dead writing you expect to see in a financial report?

  • vrln #34 7 years ago

    I have no problem with hyping, as long as it's done in a balanced and critical way. And yes I would prefer the type of text in a financial magazine :)

  • spazmo #35 7 years ago

    "spazmo: MS have shown actual gameplay content (albeit in an
    early form running on dev kits), Sony and Nintendo haven't."

    I'm thinking more of finished, playable, out in the store games. Eurogamer seems to equate graphical muscle with being the real next gen. I know it's a boring old saying, but goddamit, It all comes down to the games! Graphics offer a quick hit. You quickly get used to them and then you're left with the gameplay. Creating something different, a new gameplay experience, thats what developers should be striving for.

  • vrln #36 7 years ago

    spazmo: Indeed, I agree. I just meant that EG was too quick to declare a clear winner in the graphics department. I'm not claiming the PS3 isn't going to be more powerful - it probably is, but how big the difference is, is simply something noone can tell yet. And certainly noone can declare the PS3 as "the real next generation" yet.
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 11:27

  • mustardkid #37 7 years ago

    well lets just take a rational view of the situation - our boys on the front line are spending all day in videogame disneyland having their eyeballs exploded from their sockets by gaming visuals of the like that they've never seen before. then returning to their hotel rooms frazzeled after a long day of exposure to the hype machine (and poss some alchopops to eh lads?) they are writing it all up and getting it on the website so's us back home can share the experience. of course their writing is gonna be immediate, of the moment and infused with their excitement and enthusiasm.

    you can no doubt expect a return to the more sober EG when they get back and digest everything and when they finally get their hands on the finished hardware.

    but for now they're in the thick of it and i'm enjoying being on the ride too.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 11:20

  • vrln #38 7 years ago

    Yup but that sort of writing is something a journalistic site should try to avoid, eventhough it's very easy to "fall to the trap". Don't get me wrong I don't hate EG or anything, it's still a fine site - especially now that it seems like they've returned to the "bit more rational" point of view.

  • Fixxxer #39 7 years ago

    You said "Thank you" to Mr. Sony but not Mr. Microsoft!

    Cast iron proof!

  • Gurgeh #40 7 years ago

    Head over to Anandtech for a more sober view

    http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2424

    "Microsoft was running all of their Xbox 360 demos on Apple Powermac G5 machines, and Sony didn't have a single PS3-anything in their booth (with the exception of some clips from the press conference). This year's E3 was very much about current generation platforms and games, and in that respect it was a disappointment.

    We really wanted to bring you more coverage of the PS3, but aside from what we covered in our launch article, and our GPU article, there's nothing else to report at this time."

  • Salvia #41 7 years ago

    The simple fact is that the 360 was unveiled a week before Sony showed anything and the general feeling in the games industry and with a fair proportion of the customer base was "Is that it???". There were feelings that MS had dropped the ball before Sony had shown anything and this was I think reinforced when the PS3 was announced.

  • RS3York1 #42 7 years ago

    mustarkid..yes they are in a "videogame disneyland", but we're not talking about some regular joe "Hey I won a trip to E3!!" gamer.

    These folks are part of the industry, they've been to gaming conventions before and *they get paid to play while we pay to play*. If they can't keep a straight head - then let's get someone who will. The fact that EG went frontpage "OMG SONY ROX!!! All OTHERS ARE D00M3D!!!" not once or twice but multiple times based on some CG... that was just stunning in the worst of ways.

    There's no excuse for that. EG just needs to say 'sorry' and avoid doing it again.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 11:36

  • vrln #43 7 years ago

    Salvia: And what is this "fact" based on? I'm sure alot of people will disagree with you. I'm in no way claiming that the MS show was perfect or even what people were expecting, but to call it a "is that all?" is not a fact at all. What exactly do you base these "feelings that MS had dropped the ball" on? I've read a very different point of view from many respected sites and even major magazines like The Times.
    RS3YORK1: I agree, they could use some kind of official statement about it, eventhough this article already seems to say it in a way.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 11:36

  • toy_brain #44 7 years ago

    "you remember the old man from last generation - I didn't buy a game on PlayStation 2 that had that kind of facial geometry."

    Guess he never bouht Silent Hill 3 then... ahh well.
    (Sorry, I know that makes me sound like a total Sony fanboy, but its something that I've been itching to say for ages)

    Anyway, nice interview, you certainly gave the man a hard time. I almost feel sorry for the guy, reading about him squirm in his chair and wave his hands while answering questions of "WHY IS YOUR CONSOLE SO S**T" (well, more or less).
    Some interesting answers, some hilarious cases of foot-in-mouth, and some good points about 'sequlitis' which MS are getting unfairly labelled with.

  • Salvia #45 7 years ago

    They should apologise for having different opinions to you?????
    Get real; they liked the Sony stuff more than the MS stuff. End of story.

    I was more impressed by the Sony presentation than the MS one;does this mean I have to apologise to everyone as well?

  • vrln #46 7 years ago

    Salvia: You are not a journalistic website. The job of a journalist is not to impose his own opinions to others, it's to provide a balanced critical view - something EG obviously did not do this time, especially at the beginning of E3.

    The fact is, this site is not a "fansite", this is a journalistic gaming portal.

  • drumbaby #47 7 years ago

    And the journalists often give their opinions while delivering the facts. Get over it. This is not a CNN for games.

    (edit/ format bork for spelling)
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 11:44

  • Salvia #48 7 years ago

    Salvia: And what is this "fact" based on?
    What exactly do you base these "feelings that MS had dropped the
    ball" on? I've read a very different point of view from many
    respected sites and even major magazines like The
    Times.

    The fact that the majority of people in the games co. I work for and several others all said 'Is that it?', the fact that a lot of people on various gaming sites/forums were underwhelmed by the stuff they showed.

  • vrln #49 7 years ago

    There's a difference between providing opinions and posting blatantly flamebait stuff like "the real next generation". CNN for games is what every site should try to be imo. Opinions are ok in "opinion-articles", not newsposts that introduce console. They are supposed to provide the facts. And that PS3 is "the real next generation" is nowhere near a fact.

  • Salvia #50 7 years ago

    "The job of a journalist is not to impose his own opinions to others, it's
    to provide a balanced critical view"

    And IMO the balanced critical view is that Sony made a much better showing than MS.

  • covfan #51 7 years ago

    So, X-Box suffer from sequelitis? I didn't see them creating 4 ruddy versions of their best racing game. Or even releasing F1 2001 4

  • vrln #52 7 years ago

    Salvia: You still haven't provided anything that makes it a "fact". Alot of people on various forums were also impressed by it at the same time. I don't think this is a time to provide any such harsh statements like "the real next generation" after seeing a few techdemos and a prerendered FMV which is a "vision of what we are trying to achieve" (aka KillZone2, which was heralded by many sites as the truth of PS3's technological superiority).

  • mustardkid #53 7 years ago

    It is essential that they do report their opinions as well as the facts - i don't just want to know how many polygons were being chucked around the screen - i want to know if the experience fired them up or left them cold.

    the facts don't always speak for themselves and opinion pieces can cover those intangible qualities that make a game good or bad despite it's tech.

  • RS3York1 #54 7 years ago

    Salvia - I wouldn't want an apology so much if EG didn't decide it was appropriate to publish a piece essentially saying 'it's ok to criticize us, but don't criticize us...even if we were so decidedly unbalanced (and yes biased) that we headlined Nintendo was already finished & Sony had already delivered truely next generation wares when we haven't played *anything* from either company'.

    You don't have to agree with me or vrln on much but he's right - EG isn't a fan site. And until the name gets changed to EuroPlaystationGamer you can't just brush it off such slanted coverage as acceptable.

    You don't owe me an apology because we disagree but if you don't do your job then publically say "no YOU'RE wrong" when we say "Hey do your job properly!" - well you better believe I'd like an apology that's just as public, forget the 17th page retraction. It's past that now.
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 12:02

  • vrln #55 7 years ago

    Salvia: Much better showing you say... What did they actually show except a few non-ingame 15 second videos? You think that's a better showing than actually displaying some playable titles on dev-kits? I quess MS should have showed alot of small techdemos and some prerendered visions and alot of people would be praising them right now. Slightly off topic but this question was really out of touch imo in the interview, the other ones were good.

  • MoFo #56 7 years ago

    Yeah vrln, the Eurogamer guys have always said that their reviews are their opionated take on a game. This has always been the case here. And hence E3 reporting is their opionated take on E3. I'm enjoying reading what they have to say more so than any other non-opionated sites. There seems to be a conspiracy here to turn EG in to a boring site like all the others. Am I the only one that can see this? You're all out to get me. Noooo...help me please...ahhh.

  • mustardkid #57 7 years ago

    vrin i take that this is the quote that upset you

    " You know what? Frankly, going on what I've seen so far, I'm not even convinced Xbox 360 and PS3 are the same generation."

    clearly a personal opinion in an article tagged as an opinion piece and not once presented as a fact

  • FLCL #58 7 years ago

    why did eurogamer give him such a hard time?! i think i know the answer

    *Waves arms around in air*

    jeez!! J.Allard you are no longer on MTV wake up!!!
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 12:00

  • Salvia #59 7 years ago

    What bit don't you understand? It is a fact that I have experienced a lot of people in and out of the games industry that felt the 360 unveiling was an anti-climax.

    I can see where EG is coming from with the Headline "The Real Next-Gen" as a lot of what was shown by MS did not look like much of a technological leap from the XBox. Sony may have cheated by showing some rendered stuff but they also showed where they wanted to take the platform whereas MS's offerings didn't seem to raise the bar that much (with the exception of GoW, which in my opinion was not indicative of the final gameplay.It may have been using the game engine but it looked like a purely scripted sequence rather than someon playing the game).

  • vrln #60 7 years ago

    It's not that, it's the whole picture. They did it to Nintendo too. And any journalist should take tech demos with at least some slight criticism. If Sony had not shown the prerendered KillZone2 video I doubt they would have been as positive, that had a huge impact everywhere. The developers have already said it's not in-game, it's just a vision that they are trying to achieve. Also if you look at the specs they aren't that far off, the entire "different generation" thing is not something a journalistic site should be saying at this point. When both consoles have games running on beta/final dev kits then they can start judging like that - so far Sony has shown nowhere even near enough evidence to make that point believalable.

    Last but not least, even if they have opinions in their articles they shouldn't use the articles topic as a flamebait - what I'm talking about is this whole "Nintendo concedes" "The Real Next Generation" and "Fails to impress". That stuff simply is out of the picture at this point.

  • vrln #61 7 years ago

    Salvia: Please download Cliffy B:s ingame demonstration of Gears of War first, it looks exactly like it does in the trailers. The gameplay itself looks a bit like Brute Force, which some people aren't very fond of.

    Just saying that "I work in the industry" is no rational argument, alot of people work in the industry and I highly doubt there is any common opinion (except perhaps in your circle, there are alot of circles that only praise MS too) yet.

  • Graeme_N #62 7 years ago

    Good interview, I think Allard was quite open in his answers.

    The only thing I think was a blatant lie was when he said that they weren't considering Sony when they set the release date. That's nonsense. I think they're still smarting over the fact that Sony's "inferior" console easily beat them in the previous generation, and I recall them saying over a year ago that they would not make the mistake of giving Sony a head start again.

  • vrln #63 7 years ago

    In all honesty I doubt Microsoft ever even believed they could oust the PS2 with the Xbox. What they did try is to get a decent marketshare amount and make Xbox a commonly known brand - in that they succeeded. The next generation will tell who's going to be the winner, but they are in a better starting point this time than they were with the Xbox.

  • RS3York1 #64 7 years ago

    Salvia says:

    "Sony may have cheated by showing some rendered stuff but they also showed where they wanted to take the platform whereas MS's offerings didn't seem to raise the bar that much (with the
    exception of GoW, which in my opinion was not indicative of the final gameplay.It may have been using the game engine but it looked like a purely scripted sequence rather than
    someon playing the game)."

    Whoa hold on there pal. You want to have it both ways. When Sony shows CG movies it "showed where they wanted to take the platform ". Yet when MS shows in-engine Gears of War you brush it off saying it "was not indicative of the final gameplay" & "it looked like a purely scripted sequence rather than someon playing the game"?!?

    Offside my friend! Offside!

    What we've seen of Gears of War is far and away more indicative of final gameplay than the Killzone or Motor Sport CG renders. And movies don't get any more scripted than things can be. Are you sure you're in the market for a video games console or a DVD player?

    Furthermore, how can you asses that MS didn't raise the bar that much on gaming while Sony has?...especially since since Sony had no games of thier own to show! The only upcoming games Sony had in real-time were Unreal Tournament 2007 & Fight Night 3, both of which are multiplatform releases. Some interesting conclusions you've come to my friend, very interesting.
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 12:26

  • Gareth.de #65 7 years ago

    It's painfully obvious that MS never imagined they would win the current console war - they said themselves they just wanted to establish themselves as a credible console manufacturer and not just someone who makes Flight Simulator for the PC.

    Simply making stuff up and referring to it as fact is not journalism, Salvia.

    It's lame. EG as a whole is really losing the plot here.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 12:17

  • Gareth.de #66 7 years ago

    Thanks ;)

  • meggsy #67 7 years ago

    I'm loving these interviews, keep it up EG.

    p.s. - Shigsy next please?

  • Zomoniac #68 7 years ago

    I'm entertained by this bit:

    I couldn't tell the difference between vinyl and CD!' It's more convenient, which is nice, and I can play it in my car and I don't have to screw up tapes, but I can't hear the difference, do I need better audio in my life?

    This is from the guy selling this machine on its high definition video. Personally, I, and I think most people in the world, can hear a much bigger difference between vinyl and CD than I can see a difference between 480i and 720p TV sets. If digital AV clarity isn't important why is he selling his system on it?

  • Graeme_N #69 7 years ago

    I never meant to suggest that MS were expecting to win the current-gen war, but I think that their next-gen plan was always to come out before the PS3, because they realised that the PS2's installed base was more of an advantage than the Xbox's technological superiority, and if the PS3 got a similar lead, then it would probably be the same story all over again. So to say that they weren't considering Sony when setting the release date strikes me as being nonsense.

  • vrln #70 7 years ago

    "She's a girl: she doesn't understand this 'technology'
    stuff. Get her back to the kitchen where there are some
    dishes waiting to be washed."

    That was uncalled for, actually pretty low. Gender and false gender-stereotypes have nothing to do with this argument.

  • Salvia #71 7 years ago

    When Sony shows
    CG movies it "showed where they wanted to take the platform
    ". Yet when MS shows in-engine Gears of War you brush it off
    saying it "was not indicative of the final gameplay" & "it
    looked like a purely scripted sequence rather than someon
    playing the game"?!?

    No not at all. I was merely pointing out that the 360 had its fair share of rendered stuff too.

    "The only upcoming games Sony had in real-time were
    Unreal Tournament 2007 & Fight Night 3, both of which are
    multiplatform releases."

    True, true but I'm still looking forward to the PS3 more than the 360 based on what was shown at E3.

  • Negotiator #72 7 years ago

    This guy Allard is so honest it's a joy to listen to him, sony are all about smoke and mirrors and nobody knows what Nin are about, at least M Soft tell it how it is. They still have to convice me to buy a 360 but I'm interested at the moment.

  • Salvia #73 7 years ago

    "Simply making stuff up and referring to
    it as fact is not journalism, Salvia. "

    But they didn't make anything up did they?

  • Derblington #74 7 years ago

    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 12:35

  • Mashum #75 7 years ago

    Great interview by Mr Reed & the most interesting piece I have read on any of the next gen consoles - bravo.

  • Xerx3s #76 7 years ago

    See? You CAN write a reasonably good article WITHOUT bashing M$ to favor $ony fanboys! Almost the right questions! Now if you would do this on the same lvl with $ony, then take a look at how much their lies hold up.

    And besides, i said it before and ill say it again: Raw horsepower (terraflop for the n44bs) doesnt make good grafs! I still have the oppinion that the 360 will have superior graf's because it has a far smarter system of realising tasks. Yeah, go flame $ony fanboys, but we'll see at the launch.

    And i quote: "Well, talking of a Spring launch, talking to developers, they don't have dev kits yet.". Say that they get their dev kits as of right now, that means that they have to build up the entire game in less than a year! MEANING THAT ALL LAUNCH GAMES NEED TO BE RUSHED!

    Also, because $ony is the only one who can make BR discs, they need to send a build to $ony every time, wait till it is created and send back, and then test how it works! If thats $ony's idea of taking the bumps out of the production proces, then i fear that its gonna be a looooooooooooooong time before anything good comes from there.

  • Salvia #77 7 years ago

    " This guy Allard is so honest it's a joy to listen to him
    ,... at least M Soft tell it how it is."

    If you think that any companies ever 'tell it how it is' then you're sorely mistaken.

    "E3 2005: Most embarrassing thing ever

    So far E3 has been good; a fair number of meetings, the press conferences, etc.

    But here's the worst thing ever. The Xbox360 press conference was kind of done "in the round", that is, the presenter stood on a circular platform with the audience all around. The audience behind the presenters was on the stage, and at first they looked normal. But the press conference started about 40 minutes late, so we on the main floor had a lot of time to look at these people. They seemed like they could be developers or bloggers or something... they were all 20'ish, in jeans and T-shirts and whatnot. But, they were all fairly attractive - or at least the women were - as was noticed by the people behind me.

    The next thing we noticed was that none of them wore the little circular pins we all had been given when we came in. Hmmm. Weird.

    But the last hint came when a shapely woman came forward with the Xbox360 in a pack and put it on the stage. Suddenly this audience erupted into applause. They were hired guns! At every cue they went crazy, clapping and cheering and pumping their arms, nodding their heads, etc. Microsoft had brought its own supporters along with them, just in case they got a chilly reception at the press conference!

    That's just horrible. I felt sorry for them - what did they think they were doing? I could only think that perhaps they brought these people along to provide a pretty backdrop for the camera shots. Ooo, look at all the pretty, hip people! They all want Xbox360! Look how excited they are! It was like an infomercial.

    It was completely embarrassing, and the real audience caught on quickly. I think MS would have gotten a much better reception had they not tried to stack the deck at their conference. As one friend said, "It's like a Bush press conference!""

  • RandolphScott #78 7 years ago

    This is making me very angry. What is a critical balanced view if not an opinion?

    How is 8/10 a fact?

    EG thought the Sony presentation was the most impressive and that the line-up looked best. They said so and now you are accusing them of being fanboys because they have that opinion. Do you do that when they give a 9/10?

    If you don't like it then go onto a different site that agrees with your opinions. Personally I don't need critics to agree with my opinion ('cos guess what) I haven't got one. I haven't seen the 360, PS3 or anything else. I want to hear about the reactions that journalists I trust have had to things.

    It would be a sorry state indeed if we were just presented with the facts.

    "Here are the specs for the PS3 and they did a demo with ducks and water."

    Just stop accusing people of bad journalism everytime they state an opinion...you dicks.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 12:40

  • vrln #79 7 years ago

    I think they did, they stated that PS3 is "the real next generation" and that "nintendo concedes". I'm actually looking forward to both consoles, but I have to admit I prefer the franchises on the Xbox. Sony simply haven't shown much so far. The Sony footage that was proved to be real-time didn't look any better than the best Xbox360 real-time footage. The only difference is that Microsoft showed pretty much of it while Sony almost nothing, so of course there's also some less impressive stuff on the MS side.

  • Yaz #80 7 years ago

    "No not at all. I was merely pointing out that the 360 had
    its fair share of rendered stuff too."

    There's a big difference between rendered cinematic intros and cut scenes (easy to identify) and rendered sequences made to look like actual gameplay (Killzone). :|

  • Nige #81 7 years ago

    There's an interesting article on the 360 GPU on HardOCP.com - not sure if that's already been touted around here?

    It's a bit more technical than most of what's been written elsewhere.

    A lot of what I've been reading so far would suggest that the ATI silicon possibly doesn't exist in a working form right now... it certainly sounds as though developers don't have it yet.

  • vrln #82 7 years ago

    RandolphScott: The moment someone has to start using insults and rude words it's a sign they don't have anything to support their arguments. Did you read the text before this actual interview started? EG pretty much took back their judgements already. I'm not talking about opinions - a journalistic site should not pass judgements quickly and should always try to retain a more or less balanced view. There's nothing wrong with saying that they prefered the Sony conference, but there is something wrong about having topics like "The Real Next Generation" and "Fails to impress". I didn't like the MS press conference that much either, I think it was too geared too much at the MTV generation, but I did like alot of other things they have shown etc.

  • Tonka #83 7 years ago

    They were hired guns!
    Aha! Me and my friends were just talking about this whilst watching the conference at lunch. We all agreed that gamer girls in the US are really hot.

  • Bertie Verified Senior Staff Writer, Eurogamer.net #84 7 years ago

    Har, great interview Mr. Reed :)

    J. Allard was obviously in a good mood, meaning microsoft have done well this E3? His open attitude made for a great read, I'll certainly be getting an Xbox, and probably one of those sony things, too.

    Deleted a couple of posts up above for those that noticed and are wondering.

    I can't really say much about EG's coverage and avoid a flame from someone - odd that: it's almost as if not everyone will always agree with you.

    Tom's written a piece about EG's content over E3, and numerous people have expressed my sentiments in defense of this site's coverage. You're welcome to post your own opinion, just as we do, just keep it cool and mature.

  • Gareth.de #85 7 years ago

    "Simply making stuff up and referring to
    it as fact is not journalism, Salvia.

    But they didn't make anything up did they?"

    It was actually directed at you - hence why your name is at the end of it.

  • Yaz #86 7 years ago

    "A lot of what I've been reading so far would suggest that
    the ATI silicon possibly doesn't exist in a working form
    right now"

    True, developers don't have it yet (they will in the beta devkits), but the silicon does exist has has done so since November. Check out the following interview with ATI (also very interesting);

    Inside XBox 360's Graphics-
    http://www.firingsquad.com/features/xbox_360_i nterview/default.asp

  • Ryu #87 7 years ago

    I love the way how male testosterone takes over when new consoles are launched and ALREADY people are judging a 'book by it's cover'.

    Despite not having played a game on any of the new machines, I CANNOT believe that people (including EuroGamer) have already decided on who is going to win this so-called war.

    I think some people need to calm down, lower the adrenaline levels, and engage some brain cells. Since when has superior specs and unveiling shows been integral to the industry? History has shown that superior specs mean almost nothing. Yet every 4-5 years when a manufacturer unveil specs, members of community go doe-eyed and start dribbling at ultimately unimportant numbers.

    I give it 3-4 maybe longer, before developers will be able to exploit the full potential of these next-gen machines, and thats means 3-4 years before we see the likes of Killzone2 graphics. Sure the graphics may be pretty, but if the gameplay and atmosphere is piss-poor, I won't buy into it.

    Nintendo haven't been left behind, they have merely explored other avenues of gaming. Nintendo still dominate the GAMING genre, the others are no longer part of the gaming genre, they are in a genre of their own, one obsessed by prettier graphics, by more money-making sequels, by higher numbers.

    Jack of all trades, Master of none...

    Maybe Eurogamer should rename themselves Euromultimedia or Eurographicswhore. Thier focus of gaming, where innovations and originality is important, not higher numbers, has been blurred.
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 12:54

  • Gareth.de #88 7 years ago

    "She's a girl: she doesn't understand this 'technology'
    stuff. Get her back to the kitchen where there are some
    dishes waiting to be washed.

    That was uncalled for, actually pretty low. Gender and false
    gender-stereotypes have nothing to do with this argument."

    Give me a break - if you think I mean that then please put your PC back in its box and send it back to PC World.

  • Juriel #89 7 years ago

    Heh...this actually got me to be more positive about X-Box 360. The guy at least wasn't spouting marketing talk, or acting weird. But was just 'this is business, we go to the same tech guys, and so on'. Which was a refreshing change from the 'you are the colony' bit.

  • vrln #90 7 years ago

    Gareth.de: I'm not claiming you meant it, but such comments shouldn't be posted imo.

  • vrln #91 7 years ago

    Yeah, it's Jay I think.

  • Tonka #92 7 years ago

    Is his first name really just "J" ?
    It's acctually Jay, just like Homer J Simpsons middle name.

  • Salvia #93 7 years ago

    " "Simply making stuff up and referring to
    it as fact is not journalism, Salvia.

    But they didn't make anything up did they?"

    It was actually directed at you - hence why your name is at
    the end of it."

    Oh yes because I made some stuff up and then tried to pass it off as journalism didn't I?

    Idiot.

  • #94 7 years ago

    I think most of the staff here at EG were born with playstation pads in there mouths never mind. we dont have to listen to there PS3 bullshit do we? the PS3 will be an amazing machine but so will the 360, and the revolution will be good as well, me if i had the money id buy em all!

  • pantherboy #95 7 years ago

    I think he makes a good point though on what the sony demos tell us about the game in terms of possible hardware for the console. (same for the 360 demos but more ps3 since their hardware is not as close to finalised)

    I mean they could have a custom super computer running all those games under his podium and no one would know? Untill we actually see games running on final hardware its hard to know which is more powerful. On paper they seem just about the same.

  • Bertie Verified Senior Staff Writer, Eurogamer.net #96 7 years ago

    Yeah, you're so right Jazon.

  • Yossarian #97 7 years ago

    As regards 'sequelitis', have people actually looked at the Xbox 360 titles currently announced in development? I can't find a comprehensive list of them anywhere (there are reportedly around 140), but of the 40 or 50 I found with any sort of concrete details surrounding them, MORE THAN TWENTY ARE BRAND-NEW IPs:

    2 Days to Vegas
    Saint's Row
    The Outfit
    Kameo: Elements of Power
    Full Auto
    Condemned: Criminal Origin
    Dark Sector
    The Darkness
    Lost Odyssey
    Prey
    Dead Rising
    Gears of War
    Strangehold
    Demonik
    Alan Wake
    Possession
    Metronome
    The Godfather
    King Kong
    Frame City Killer
    Huxley
    Ninety-Nine Nights

  • vrln #98 7 years ago

    I agree, that question was uncalled for - at least EG should have asked the Sony guy the same. They are by far in a worse "sequel-mania" position.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 13:25

  • smelly #99 7 years ago

    Why is it the only thing gamers care about is power?

    I'm fed up reading "revolution is going to be shit because it's not as powerful" (regardless of them not knowing how powerful it actually is!)..

    or "ps3 is going to be brilliant as it's the most powerful..".. etc etc.

    But yet, if you look at posts about the GAMES of E3 (i.e. the things that actually MATTER) there are next to no posts about them! Its the games that matter, not the tech specs.. who cares if one machine has slightly more accurate lighting than the other, as long as they play well?

  • Nige #100 7 years ago

    Taking a step back, it's funny that people could argue so much, essentially based on the semantics of 2 things which (as far as the rest of the world is concerned) are exactly the same.

    I'm not being a liberal, or cussing anyone. I personally find it quite entertaining; but I'll leave you to consider the parallels.

  • Gurgeh #101 7 years ago

    People seem to be forgetting that there are no XBox 360s or PS3s running at E3. None of the demos were or are being played on either. The alpha kits for XBox 360s are Powermacs; there are no PS3 kits at all. There are dummy boxes but they are non-functional.

  • vrln #102 7 years ago

    Yes but MS did show playable games running on dev kits, Sony did not.

  • Yossarian #103 7 years ago

    I'm also curious why Eurogamer haven't gotten around to covering the fevered discussion all over the Internet of how the Xbox 360 GPU has turned out to be significantly meatier than Microsoft let-on, thanks to an interview with some ATI guy.

  • Polymath #104 7 years ago

    Nice read... Haven't read the comments yet, but Good job Kristan!
    More like this... balanced, and with critical questions.

  • Dabs #105 7 years ago

    Jesus, you roasted him! Now, I'm looking forward to the PS3 far more than the X360 and right now plan to only get the former, but even I can spot blatant, venemous bias when I see it.

    EG to Allard: Your company are dishonest, PC game-poaching, sub-human scum, aren't they?
    Allard: Well I ...

    EG to Harrison: Nice pecs, have you been working out? Oh, and thank-you so much for your time!
    Phil: Heh, my pleasure, that was a piece of piss - you practically did my job for me, heh!

    Honestly, it's plain to see where this backlash you're getting is coming from.

  • vrln #106 7 years ago

    I think most of the interview (everything except the sequel comments) was actually very good, but the Sony interview should have been exactly like this too - tough, critical and journalistic.

  • Nige #107 7 years ago

    >Why is it the only thing gamers care about is power?

    Spot the Nintendo owner...

    (Sorry Smelly, that was purely meant as pith! Not a dig) :-)

  • ClansOfIntrigue #108 7 years ago

    I don't know why people think EG was tough on Allard - seemed like they asked the questions he expected to be asked and was given chance to give the answers he wanted. If it were me, I would have really called him on this bit:

    "We didn't think about them when we thought about our date. We thought about what was right for gaming, what was right for technology, what type would be available and went from there."

    Giving XBox 1 the shortest product life-cycle a games machine has known is "right for gaming, right for the technology"? Bullshit, it was a business decision and nothing else - they haven't made the $$ on XBox1 so they're cutting their losses and hoping that being first to market with the "next-gen" machine will get them a decent installed base before they have to compete with Sony again...

  • Ryu #109 7 years ago

    LOL dabs, v true.

  • Carrybagma #110 7 years ago

    Not all Sony staff are corporate bozos. Here's an extract from an article on the Beeb:

    [snip]
    "I'm super adverse to this idea of just getting more and more revenue out of our players," said Mark DeLoura, Manager, Developer Relations at Sony Computer Entertainment America.

    "Me as a player, I am not going to keep buying stuff over and over again, unless I am super keen on the title."

    For game enthusiasts, the next-gen consoles could be bad news as spiralling costs could mean game publishers end up putting out new versions of current games.

    "I do worry that we are going to see decreased risk and decreased innovation," said Mr DeLoura.

    "I fear that players are going to get bored because when they go to the store, they will see the games they played last year."
    [snip]

    (htt p://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4562705.stm)

    Fairenuf, eh? Maybe we shouldn't be so keen on promising to buy one console or another before we know how much they're going to cost, and how much the games are going to cost too. I'd rather go back to playing Monopoly or cards with my mates then shell out ludicrous sums for hypeware.

  • Polymath #111 7 years ago

    "Did Reed just ask J Allard if they *should* create
    some CG to create HYPE instead of a FACTUAL basis of where
    games are going? Goodness. Get back to the UK quick, your
    objectivity and our restored trust are waiting for you. "

    Agreed!

    "And yes I would prefer the type
    of text in a financial magazine :) "
    At it's best, Eurogamer is reminiscent of the likes of a games "Economist". Maybe not everyone is a fan of that style, but I am...

    "And IMO the balanced critical view is that Sony made a much
    better showing than MS."
    I don't think anyone is arguing with you, here Salvia. It's just that it was reported in a way that implies other, inappropriate things.


  • smelly #112 7 years ago

    "Spot the Nintendo owner... "

    ?? Its microsoft who are saying graphics dont matter now, did u not read?

    Look at the current gen, the ps2 graphics are well behind the other two, thats not stopped people buying it has it?

  • reto #113 7 years ago

    An interviewer actually asking hard questions? Why couldn't you have done a similar interview for POP3?

  • vrln #114 7 years ago

    Polymath: Exactly - there's nothing wrong with stating that the Sony conference was more impressive, it's the fact it was all presented in a blatantly imbalanced way as if it was a sure thing that the Xbox360 is just a "Xbox 1.5".

    I agree about that question too, that's also not a very good one - and at least if they asked MS this, they should have asked Sony something like this too:
    "You have shown next to none no real gameplay footage while Microsoft actually showed in-game footage running on dev kits. Don't you think it's misleading to create a FMV (KillZone2) that looks as if it's in-game?"

  • mustardkid #115 7 years ago

    sony may or may not be over-hyping ps3 capabilities

    but

    what would be really funny is....

    if MS are over-hyping their one




    psych!!!!

  • Nige #116 7 years ago

    >>?? Its microsoft who are saying graphics dont matter now,did u not read?

    Tee hee - wind 'em up, and watch 'em go... :-)
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 14:26

  • vrln #117 7 years ago

    Nige: Actually if I recall correctly Allard has said in another interview that they are still looking forward trying to keep the "PS2 vs Xbox --> Xbox version looks better" thing. It was in the TeamXbox interview I think, he refered that their dev tools are superior.

  • vrln #118 7 years ago

    Oh and by that I didn't mean I agree with them - I think the PS3 is probably going to be better graphically, of course since it's going to be launched later. If the difference is anything major or even as big as the Xbox vs PS2 one, that's another topic to discuss.

  • zaffazzaffaz #119 7 years ago

    Microsoft showed actuall running games on alpha kits wit 30% the final power of xbox 360 product. These Alpha kits dont even contain the brand new custom GPU thats made by ATI that the xbox 360 will boast!
    Those of you who believe this is a lie, here is the proof....

    "Poking our noses around the side of the demo station and peering through the vaguely camouflaging air grills revealed the shocking truth: behind the Xbox 360 unit sat two Apple G5 computers."

    link :- http://gamesradar.msn .co.uk/news/default.asp?pagetypeid=2&articleid=35906&subsect ionid=1586

    link:- http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/615/615667p1.html?fro mint=1

    PS3 just showed tech demos. why didnt they show gamplay and any running games?

    I mean dont get me wrong i will buy both system because i was still impressed by Sony's presentation, but the lack of playable games and the nice scripted rendered movies just made me think we are having an unveiling of the PS2 all over again "PS2 Will be able to generate toy story graphics" and then 'PROVED' it with CGI from final fantasy and other games. I mean enough of the BS already. Show the true potential of the lovely PS3 machine!!! dont you agree?

    I like this interview with allard, he says it calmly, conservative and is very true to what he says even though he was getting grilled by EG!

    Anyways if microsoft wanted to put on a show like Sony did then they would have showed this during their presentation reather than gameplay!!

    This is a trailer of Ghost Recon 3 and directly competes with what sony showed off at their press conference, namely their killzone 2 trailer. xbox 360 doubters, download and watch this then alleviate your fears that 360 is extremely underpowered compared to the PS3.

    ITS BREATH TAKING!! (caution 50mb download but IT IS IN HD!!)

    Quicktime format:- http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=6044&type=mov

    WMV Format:-     http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=6044&type=wmv

  • mad_caddy #120 7 years ago

    worst E3 ever.

    I've never been so bored of such over hyped junk.

    Long gone are the days when they showed good stuff at E3, stuff that wasnt marketting hype, this years was penned as something special and it turns out to be nothing more than childish mud slinging (no, I'm not talking about the motorstorm video).

  • Les #121 7 years ago

    I think Allard's comments were quite thoughtful, especially considering he's from M$. Shame that slipped once, with M$'s "PS3 will be hard to program for" mantra. 360, Revolution and PS3 are all based on multiprocessor PowerPC technology, which as far as I know is different from the standard PC stuff. The multiprocessor setup is quite new for gaming and it will be a challenge for all three platforms to tap into that power.

  • fade2darc #122 7 years ago

    people keep accusing Eurogamer of being biased but, in all honesty, Xbox owners are used to this kind of thing. I've lost count of the number of articles/features/reviews i read slagging off the box.

    I'm just so used to it. Does it spoil my enjoyment of the xbox? Not at all.

    J Allard will always be loathed as he works for Da Big Evil Microsoft Empire, this will always rattle our Rage Against The Machine loving friends.

    G4TV, Gamespot, Games TM (mag),Gamecentral (Ceefax) and now Sonygamer, er sorry Eurogamer will continue to try and make us Xbox gamers feel dirty..........but so what I kinda like feeling dirty.

  • vrln #123 7 years ago

    Anyone else noticed btw that Allard accidentally slipped that the Square Enix Xbox360 tech demo is actually a work-in-progress game?

  • smelly #124 7 years ago

    Do you lot actually PLAY the games on your systems? Or are you too busy masturbating over sales figures and specs to actually get around to playing anything?

    Are the games you play THAT boring that all you care about is the graphics/specs/which machine is best?

  • Salvia #125 7 years ago

    Sod this! Anyone fancy a pint?

  • Tonka #126 7 years ago

    vrln > I think the PS3 is probably going to be better graphically, of course since it's going to be launched later

    That means, of course, that the Revolution will kick both of their a***s

  • MoFo #127 7 years ago

    mad_caddy, agree with you there buddy. I'm struggling to find anything to get excited about. Maybe this is why this EG thread is so popular. Far more entertaining than the rest of the E3 pap going on.

  • asphaltcowboy #128 7 years ago

    J Allard is the man! :D

  • vrln #129 7 years ago

    Tonka: If Nintendo really wanted to focus on a powerful Playstation-style console, yes, but I think it's great they're taking another direction.

    I actually agree with the E3 comments, I was expecting to see more "next-gen" (=xbox360, not original xbox) stuff from Microsoft too.

  • krudster #130 7 years ago

    Quick point: I did the Allard interview, Rob did the Sony one for GI and we borrowed it.

  • smelly #131 7 years ago

    "Far more entertaining than the rest of the E3 pap going on."

    have you seen spore? The new mario ds game? Bully (which is going to be huge I reacon)? King Kong (looks bloody lovely)? GTA PSP?

    etc etc? Now THEY are things at E3 to get excited about.. as THEY are games..

  • Juxxxer #132 7 years ago

    On the other hand EG people did a very good job when giving us something to discuss. Look at how many comments and how much discussion all this PS/3/60 has arosen.

    Maybe they are wickier than we think.

  • smelly #133 7 years ago

    "If Nintendo really wanted to focus on a powerful Playstation-style console"

    They've already said that technically their graphics will be on par with the other systems.. so I'd imagine they do...

  • krudster #134 7 years ago

    Also: this wasn't a one to one interview. Although I cheekily asked most of the questions, there were a few that a Franch bloke chipped in with; specifically the one about allowing gamers to dream. He was basically advocating the hype, which I personally don't subscribe to. I would rather there was a truthful representation of the system's power too. The problem this week is that it's difficult to ascertain whether those (really very impressive) PS3 demos *were* representative or not. If they are, then great. If not, we'll be sure to kick Sony for it at a later date.

  • Carrybagma #135 7 years ago

    So, did you invite him to share a bottle of Absinthe, or was that Mr.Fahey too??

    :o)

  • vrln #136 7 years ago

    Juxxxer: that's true :p

    smelly: Well Nintendo have said it for themselves that they are not trying to directly compete in the graphics market this time, instead Revolution will be very small and quiet, but only about 2-3 time sthe power of GameCube, which is nowhere near the PS3 for example.

  • Eighthours #137 7 years ago

    Now that kind of interview is why I come to Eurogamer. You do so much of a better job than the other guys when it comes to asking the tough questions. That's EG back to its best.

    Oh, and cheers for this admission: "If there's any truth in anything we've seen this week it's that no one can really be that confident that know who has the advantage", which directly contradicts a whole load of your pieces this week, and your editorial!

    As many others have said, saying "Sony's press conference was way better than Microsoft's" is a perfectly reasonable opinion which few could argue with. However, the "PS3 is the real next generation" and "Nintendo have conceded" headlines, along with the way in which you totally swallowed the rendered videos without even questioning them at the time (which come on, admit it: surely you regret that now. I bet that, behind the scenes, you guys have been going "Whoops".... I mean, you must have!!), didn't equate to balanced opinion based on any factual evidence at all!!

    Still, as I said in the first paragraph, back to form EG!!

  • MoFo #138 7 years ago

    smelly, I'm happy for you that those games excite you. Personally, BF2 is the only one I'm trully looking forard too. i hope it's not because I'm getting old!

  • Nemesis #139 7 years ago

    Good interview; that one. Really enjoyed reading through.

  • vrln #140 7 years ago

    krudster: It was a great interview, I certainly don't agree with a few questions (the sequel mania and the hype thing being those questions), but most questions were very good ones and ones that are rarely asked. This is just a very different interview style wise than the other (Sony) one, that's what fired up some heavy discussion.

    Anyways, it's an interesting time to be a gamer, I'm sure looking forward to all next-gen consoles as I'll probably end up owning them all at some stage. Right now gaming has gotten a bit bland if you ask me, these new consoles are going to bring some energy back.

    edit: and the this interview being different, I meant that in a good way - all interviews should be like this, tough and to the point :)

    and another edit: the other one isn't bad either (apart from the totally misleading topic quote), it's just of a very different style (I prefer the tougher style) - the contrast is what caused all this discussion.
    Edited by 2 at 20/05/05 @ 15:35

  • lennon #141 7 years ago

    Fair point Eighthours its a good article but another inconsistency. Why are EG prepared to push MS so hard yet ask Sony a question about their online plans and you get a weak answer and thats ok then. Why did you not push them on this and the price and launch issues as well. Give some balance to what you are saying.
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 15:32

  • Polymath #142 7 years ago

    Eighthours - Agreed.

    "PS3 will be hard to program for" mantra. 360, Revolution
    and PS3 are all based on multiprocessor PowerPC technology,
    which as far as I know is different from the standard PC
    stuff. The multiprocessor setup is quite new for gaming and
    it will be a challenge for all three platforms to tap into
    that power. "

    I think you're probably right. But that said, from the tech discussions, I think that the cell may have a better theoretical potential, but reaching it will take more learning. Some of the assessments of the PS3 vs 360 paper architecture have noted that if developers lag in making truly multithreaded games, that the 360 should have an advantage. Later on, that might reverse. Additionally, given that most games are cross platform, you rarely see the max of any platform. It would be funny... "rate limiting step = Revolution" thus, the revolution becomes the most efficient product!

    :)

  • vrln #143 7 years ago

    lennon: it seems like the other interview is taken from another site (gameindustry) after all, it wasn't "made for EG", that's why they are so different in style.

  • smelly #144 7 years ago

    "Well Nintendo have said it for themselves that they
    are not trying to directly compete in the graphics market"

    No they havent. In terms of graphics What they DID say is that the revolution is on par graphically with the other two.

    "instead Revolution will be very small and quiet,but only about 2-3 time sthe power of GameCube"

    yes, they've said that well done.

    "which is nowhere near the PS3 for example"

    depends what you measure "power" to mean. Do you measure power as textured/lit polygon throughput? In which case then 2 or 3 times better than cube is a hell of a lot better than ps2, and probably in line with ps3/xbox360.

    What do you measure "power" as? Especially as most of you are only interested in graphics? 3 times the "power" is pretty meaningless number i'd say.

    If they were just going for the cheap low-spec graphics approach, why the hell would they pay through the nose for custom ibm/ati chips?

    I do like the way that fanboys can read one sentence and interperet it as a million other things...

  • captain-future #145 7 years ago

    People don't buy tech demos.

    I know some guy here at EG that ... nah they don't but tech demos or?

    Why did you EG guys grille J Allard about rendered tech demos -> go to Sony.

  • Gareth.de #146 7 years ago

    Why did you EG guys grille J Allard about rendered tech
    demos -> go to Sony.

    Answer: Because he doesn't work for Sony.

  • Gareth.de #147 7 years ago

    Quick point: I did the Allard interview, Rob did the Sony
    one for GI and we borrowed it.

    Then it's a shame Rob didn't take your question sheet with him instead of the rim-licking job he did take...

  • captain-future #148 7 years ago

    Is his first name really just "J" ?

    J Allard is too cool to be called "James" anymore.

    http://www.bu.edu/alumni/bostonia/2003/spring/allard/
    Edited by 3 at 20/05/05 @ 16:15

  • vrln #149 7 years ago

    smelly:

    Let's review the facts: a.) Nintendo has said Revolution will be very very small and quiet. b.) Nintendo has said it's only going to be around 2-3 the power of the GameCube c.) Nintendo have constantly talked about specs not being that important anymore, and instead emphasized the Revolutions backwards compatibily to their entire library/the fact it's friendly for new game devs who have a great idea but not much cash. You also simply cannot put PS3/Xbox360 level hardware in a 2-3 dvd case box, it just doesn't work that way right now. How much stuff they can fit in without heat etc problems depends on how late they launch of course. Who knows I'm certainly not the one who can predict the evolution of technology, but the way it looks like right now there is no way they are going to be on the same level technology wise as MS/Sony this time. This is apparent from everything Nintendo has talked about for the last year imo.

    From this you can already draw the conclusion that they are not trying to become the most powerful system there is, if your system is the size of 2-3 dvd cases it's impossible to make it as powerful as the PS3 (or frankly anywhere near as powerful). Sure the number doesn't mean much, but Nintendo has been telling all the time that they are going to concentrate on gameplay (also hardware) innovation. It's also no secret that EA and the other big publishers are not very fond of the GameCube and I doubt they will be all over the Revolution either. Nintendo is trying to find its own path, not trying to directly compete. It's a bit like the Nintendo DS vs PSP thing.

    This doesn't mean that Nintendo can't be successful this time, they will probably be in a different price bracket and so on. I'm probably getting one and many of my finest gaming experiences have been on Nintendo (N64 and SNES). I also currently own a GameCube (viewtiful joe rocks) and like it alot more than my PS2, so it's pretty far fetched to lable me as a fanboy.

    Btw the fact they are buying from ATI/IBM doesn't mean anything, they are huge corporations (especially IBM) that can provide anything the customer wants. I'm betting Nintendo has ordered a CPU that can fit into a 3 DVD case without catching fire.

  • captain-future #150 7 years ago

    @vrln

    good point. IMHO Nintendo lets the bullies have their fun and go for the "second" position. cheap, fun and small many buyers will buy EITHER ps3 or x360 but as well revolution (even if only to play zelda etc.).

    smart thinking. Nintendo is the last company with some dign... nah... I won't say that (remembering the NES price ripp-off) with the gaming approach and not a "media-hub-station-box".

  • vrln #151 7 years ago

    I agree, the prime war is going to be fought between the two "media-hubs". Alot of gamers are going to get a second system and the Revolution is simply perfect for that, I'm definately getting one - just because of the 20 years backwards compatibily (downloadable). It will of course, as usual, have its share of awesome next-gen titles that are only on Nintendo.

    Nintendo actually made money with this generation too, eventhough they are in the third place right now - MS did not. That's what I think Nintendo is aiming next round too.

  • The-Bodybuilder #152 7 years ago

    "good point. IMHO Nintendo lets the bullies have their fun
    and go for the "second" position. cheap, fun and small many
    buyers will buy EITHER ps3 or x360 but as well revolution
    (even if only to play zelda etc.)."

    Is that why they are third this generation?

    I wonder what the EG staff must be thinking? They slipped up withing 24hrs, and it seems the slip up (being so gullible) will hurt them for a while.

    P.S: Krudster (or any staff reading), did you get to play the PD0 demo like some other sites did? Did you get to see a level demonstration for gears of war too?

  • fluds #153 7 years ago

    Sony do not win with games or machines they win because they are called Playstation, we all know that mothers and aunties buy systems and they know of only make brand name, we have all heard it "would you like an xbox playstation for christmas". I go with xbox because of live and online, I can hook up to my media centre and it will have great games, I would like to hear about Sony plans for online it was all I was interestred in (as both machines will be very similar and so will the games they run apert from a few exclusives). As for how a game looks, well I have a theory and I know it will not be popular with PS3 but with pc games and xbox games being developed with the same tools I see PS3 games (multi format) being ported from these technologies, will there be a difference, I doubt it, for me its down to features and ease of use (online and compatability). As for discs, blue ray, I'm from the uk and will probably not see that for 3-4 years, hell HD tv will be afew years of unless price drops dramatically, by thyen they will be building next-next gen consoles I will plug into my head and watch on my eyes. Will Sony sell more.......probably but not because they have a better console or better online gaming (which I highly doubt) but because they are playstation and Microsoft are forever rowing upstream because of a noisy minority internet community. Well thats my 2p

  • soco #154 7 years ago

    unless the development tools are absolutely amazing (that'd be a miracle for Sony) then the PS3 will be hardest to develop for. the 360 just has basically normal cores, so they can basically just do multithreaded programming with basic thread synchronization. the PS3, however, requires you to DMA shit to each SPEs local memory (as they don't seem to be able to _directly_ access main memory). there are also no caches on the SPEs as that's what the local memory acts a bit like. this means that they can work mostly like threads but they have to do a lot of special memory copying to and from main memory and other SPEs. this requires special software architectures or even more special synchronization. the hardest part here is going to be designing the software interfaces and debugging. since a lot of game engines still do a basic single threaded approach (ignoring audio playback, and occasionally input and networking) it's gonna be a huge jump for all the consoles.

    as with nearly all game consoles, they'll eventually get about 80-90% out of it, but the fear is that for most software (the ones that aren't exclusive) they're gonna do just a small handful of threads so that the software is more easily portable between the 360 and the ps3. thus meaning you'll likely not see a lot of that extra power used in the ps3 for a long time (exactly what they've been trying to say with the "future-proof" thing), chances are it's going to be quite a long while before the 360 is maxed out as well. again, just like all consoles in the past.

    one thing the 360 will probably have over the ps3 again is the APIs. Microsoft has much more expertise when it comes to software and API design. true you can find a billion windows programmers who will complain about the APIs, but that's because most of them are over 10 years old and still backwards compatible. most devs really like DirectX and some of the other newer APIs and Microsoft has been making some of this stuff work in extra threads, to make it easier for the developer, for years.

    the thing that really worries me about the p3, is that i think that like the PSP, sony is trying to rush it again. they've already downgraded the CELL processor by one SPE, which is now "redundant" which makes one think that they're having processor production problems already. they'll eventually clear up, but maybe not before they have to downgrade the specs again. then they're mostly tied to the lowest common denominator.

    i hope the editors clean up some of this mess they've created with a really good post-E3 report. the only people who really got outclassed were the EG editors. they got taken by the PS3 hype machine, like many other journalists, they just haven't been cleaning up the mess. it took them 2 days after other news sites to even get the idea across that the 360 was running on alpha hardware that was 25-35% of what the final expected hardware would be.

  • Scimarad #155 7 years ago

    It is absolute crap of the highest order to say the PS2 never had games that equalled those PS2 tech demos...

    You know I really like my XBox but sometimes it's so hard to remember that after listening to Allard...

  • vrln #156 7 years ago

    Allard is a pretty good at PR if you ask me.

  • velocity_girl #157 7 years ago

    should have asked him why 'around the sun' was so disappointing

  • Scimarad #158 7 years ago

    But this does kind of support the idea that the PS3 will kick the X360's arse from a graphical perspective.

  • vrln #159 7 years ago

    There's no proof yet that the PS3 games will look clearly superior. Also remember that the Xbox360 will have second generation games when PS3 is out.

  • Artemus #160 7 years ago

    Anyone else noticed Allard appears in the Juiced advert on the front page.

  • smelly #161 7 years ago

    "Sony do not win with games or machines they win because they
    are called Playstation, we all know that mothers and aunties
    buy systems and they know of only make brand name, we have
    all heard it "would you like an xbox playstation for
    christmas". "


    Yeah.. and about 8 or so years ago you could say the same thing about nintendo....

    Means nothing! :-)

    I *do* find it depreesing that fanboys are more interested in brand names/how powerful a machine may or may not be, as opposed to the games?

  • lennon #162 7 years ago

    "It is absolute crap of the highest order to say the PS2
    never had games that equalled those PS2 tech demos... "

    Maybe but did they ever take us to the 3rd place with their emotion engine? I think not.... (its all marketin crap and they all do it)
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 19:36

  • Scimarad #163 7 years ago

    Yes, does that bitterness suggest that you were one of the few idiots that bought that overenthusiastic hype? Hmmm

    Anyway, back to the tech demos...

    "I *do* find it depreesing that fanboys are more interested
    in brand names/how powerful a machine may or may not be, as
    opposed to the games? "

    I just can't seem to help it:-(

    I love my Xbox, Gamecube and PS2 but I just cannot get my head around the fact that a certain section of the gaming community just seems to irrationally detest the PS2. Why? Just why would you do that?? It makes no sense whatsoever! It's like the Wookie Defense.

    And I always waste my time trying to make the fools see reason:-(
    Edited by 1 at 20/05/05 @ 19:46

  • lennon #164 7 years ago

    Bitter that I shelled out £300 quid + another £150 on games at launch yes. Am i bitter that my £300 was a good long term investment now then no although looking back I wish i'd waited for some good games and a price drop. No matter how flashy the tech demos are Sony will have to wait for my money this time round.

    How bitter you gonna be when it turns out ps3 aint gonna live up to the hype? :)

  • vrln #165 7 years ago

    I'm bitter at the PS2 because a.) it still hasn't got many games I like, eventhough it has a huge library b.) it destroyed my favourite console, Dreamcast c.) it has been a huge disappointment to me graphics wise, even today.

    I loved the PS1, I just feel the PS2 didn't live up to the first one.

  • vrln #166 7 years ago

    Btw, to those here that have been claiming that it isn't sure that the Revolution will be less powerful than PS3/Xbox360:
    http:/ /cube.ign.com/articles/617/617000p2.html

    Shigeru Miyamoto confirms it there. I think it's a good idea though, if Revolution is affordable and so on I'll definately buy one just for the great 1st party games.

    An interesting quote about showing all the prerendered stuff btw:
    "I do think it's very irresponsible for people to say, "This is what we're running on. This is the power of our machine," when they're not even running on final boards. I think the professional's job is to not believe those numbers. "

    I think he has a point.

  • Scimarad #167 7 years ago

    I think the key word in that is 'I feel'. Personally I just can't understand that; I think the PS2 more than lived up to the PS1. Most of my favourite games are on the PS2.

    I'll just grit my teeth and put it down to a difference in taste...

  • vrln #168 7 years ago

    Yeah, it's a question of opinion. Anyway I'm glad the next generation is finally coming, I'm more or less bored with all current consoles to be honest.

  • Blerk #169 7 years ago

    J Allard has a PS2? :-D

    Does Bill know?

  • Calgon #170 7 years ago

    Anyone seen the comparisons going round in light of more information shed by MS/ATI, MS looks a lot more favourable now, if true it would mean Xbox360 has the most powerfull, most advanced and efficient GPU , and PS3 has the most powerful CPU - *only in some areas mainly floating point*, not General Purpose as it it only has one core and seven SPEs which are there for floating point, on the other hand 360 will have three cores which could come in handy.

    For the CPUs put it this way for some common things(floating point) where alot of work must be done 1 smart guy and 7 not so smart guys are going to get the job done done faster for that task. On some occasions those more complex tasks would be better done by 3 smart guys.


    So really they could well be neck and neck each having their strong points in some areas but ultimatly in most multiformat games you wont see an advantage on either side.
    Since they are so close(Im pretty sure of that now after recent news) its going to be up to the software which is where MS winner I think... They built the compiler along side the hardware step by step so its going to be very efficient, and the hardware should be put to good use. Developement tools is also a strong point for MS and then we have devs which they have... if MS can get a good head start they have a really good chance next gen.

    The 360 is looking better and better to me now.

  • Yossarian #171 7 years ago

    Yeah, Calgon, I mentioned this a while back, but nobody bit. Seems like the Xbox's GPU is it's secret, hush-hush weapon.

  • beep #172 7 years ago

    To quote Bowser, "BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA!".

  • #173 7 years ago

    Yeah the PS3 is all hype! The people who know anything about games and hardware know the 360 is the more balanced machine and there for the best!

  • drumbaby #174 7 years ago

    Hooray!

  • drumbaby #175 7 years ago

    "There's no proof yet that the PS3 games will look clearly
    superior. Also remember that the Xbox360 will have second
    generation games when PS3 is out. "

    It could be like the reverse of second gen' PS2 games vs first gen' Xbox games....the difference could be like that...

    I'm joking m8, don't worry. Personally I blame the Newkie Brown.

  • inpHilltr8r #176 7 years ago

    re: PS3 will be hard to develop for

    I love how so many people are now experts on the relative complexity of different approaches to parallel programming. Somehow X360's 3x2 system is believed to be simpler than PS3's 1+7, yet both present incredible hurdles to developers who have been used to single processer systems. Unlike, say PS2 developers, who have already had to learn how to make a system with 4 unique processors sing.

    Still, I'm sure that the faith in MS's ability to ship quality software tools on time, is in no way misplaced.
    Edited by 2 at 21/05/05 @ 01:27

  • siro #177 7 years ago

    I'm quite sure that all 3 systems will live well throughout the next generation product cycle. They all have their trades and will bring some wonderful games to us. And that's what counts, right? RIGHT??

    I dig the Allard guy. He did honest answers despite the agressive, almost offensive questioning by EG. Scored some points for MS here.

  • brombeer #178 7 years ago

    How management...First it's super graphics and power now it's creativity when Microsoft fell on it's face by NOT having the most powerful console (on paper)? Microsft creative? Like Jade Empire or Fable? Don't make me laugh! Funny guy that Allard. A real manager. Wonder which course he did follow. 'Colonising Ants' and 'Zen and kids' I think.

  • vrln #179 7 years ago

    brombeer: I'm not sure if that's supposed to be a troll or an argument, I'd vote for troll. You obviously haven't read many Allard interviews, he states in pretty many that he doesn't expect Sony to have any technology lead in the actual games, as their development tools are superior and so on. About Microsoft being creative, well, count the new decent IP on the Xbox and then the PS2 - that speaks for itself. I'm not claiming MS has been creative because of actually wanting to be, it's more like they had to create their own IP. Xbox360 will tell if they are going to just milk the old IP or continue to create new ones.

    inpHilltr8r: Agreed, it's too early for any such comments and I highly doubt Sony hasn't learned from their mistakes too. The 1+7 vs 3+2 thing is slightly misleading though, the architecture of the PS3 is very different compared to anything out now, compared to the multicore+hyperthreading approach. This doesn't mean it's any more difficult to develop for of course. Time will tell.

  • #180 7 years ago

    "NEWSFLASH" "NEWSFLASH" "NEWSFLASH"

    The Xbox 360 "IS MORE POWERFUL" than the PS3!

    Goto the link below and all will be explained:

    htt p://xbox360.ign.com/articles/617/617951p1.html

    By the way, I'm going to post this on every comments page on this site; because this is the type of information Eurogamer doesn't want you to see because this site is bias towards the PS3!

    If I get banned, so what! At least some of you would of saw this news by then!
    Edited by 1 at 21/05/05 @ 12:40

  • captain-future #181 7 years ago

    Microsoft is NOT a very creative company but a very thourough one.
    The learn from mistakes and take feedback seriously and put in to good use in the next version (of their software products).

    I guess it's pretty much the same with X360. First round was to sniff the air - BTW: the are not the "strong second contender" in the market place (numberwise they are almost identically to Nintendo - in sold units worldwide).

    But you got to give them credit: it's really true. everybody laughed at microsoft for entering the console market. the burnt a lot of money to get a foot in the door with xbox and they will do everything to be better in the next-gen.

    IMHO the biggest problem of MS are:
    penetrating asian markets and not enough exclusive games.

    what I hear from a friend of mine (working as a producer for a small game company) is that software support and services from MS are way better than Sony's because of the simple fact that Sony is in a position to be arrogant against game developers. MS must give developers a good reason and a fair share of earnings from the online services and they have the means to really really annoy Sony.

  • OnlyMe #182 7 years ago

    It's not a very big deal to enter the console market when you have the amount of cash Microsoft has, and with the well-oiled PR machinery. They are still worthy of a laugh, because, simply put, they have done nothing noteworthy to gain the position they are in now. It's all about the money, and how many games have they actually created? How many first party titles do they have? The biggest titles on Xbox are bought for. And they've basically brought nothing new to the table. With Xbox they made a powerful console. This time they only upgrade and make an even more powerful console. How original. That can be said about Sony too, but at least they have more than one game franchise, and they continously create more. Halo is about the only MS franchise, while the rest of the exclusives can just as quickly become multi-platform or leave for another console. Not unlike the GTA franchise on the Playstation 2.

    That said, I'll probably end up with all three consoles sooner or later, and I have a feeling that my first one will be Xbox360. If all of them came out at the same time, I'd probably end up with a PS3. Depends on the launch titles.
    Edited by 1 at 21/05/05 @ 13:12

  • jiveguy #183 7 years ago

    I think xbox live is noteworthy, I think a company that has no history in the console market to become a strong competitor is noteworthy. Anyone who thinks Sony, Nintendo or Microsoft are in this business to do anything more than make money is just fooling themselves. But they also know that to make those wads they need to have good games for us to play and decent hardware to play them on. Don't claim that one company is only there for the money when all of them are.
    Edited by 2 at 21/05/05 @ 13:30

  • captain-future #184 7 years ago

    hehe. obviously MS is not "in it" for the money at the first look. IMHO MS tries to bring the "PC" to the living room through the backdoor (and then cash in on "must have" services like LIVE).

    @OnlyMe: GTA is not PS2 exclusive, not even MGS is. and you have to congratulate MS for the first and only homogenious online service in the history of video gaming. beside that you have some good points - but that's exactly what I said before (not very creative, no big deal exclusive games (I don't consider Halo a special game but a huge marketing phenomenon).

    one more question: you keep talking about first party sony games? which ones? because Jak, GTA, MGS, DMC etc. are not.

    almost forgot: TECMO is a strong franchise on Xbox. I have all their games because they are must haves IMHO.
    Edited by 1 at 21/05/05 @ 13:57

  • Mirkan #185 7 years ago

    Just a general comment about J Allard; I like the guy. I dunno, some people just feel human (although there's prolly tons of training behind acting like that and getting that feeling across as what's essentially a PR person) and I think he does.

    I like how he doesn't answer questions the macho way of "we're not worried" or taking stabs at the opposition the way fanboys generally do.

    Disregarding the MTV marketing which was never geared towards the kind of gamer I am anyway, I think MS came out of this whole hype machine pretty much unscathed (which is probably the opposite of the general opinion on this site) because in the end, they showed games, not CG trailers.

    No matter how much of "this is the way it'll actually look when it's for real!" you throw at me regarding the PS3 demos, I still feel like a complete idiot for ever believing they were real. To me, the presentation that made me crap my pants in anticipation now carries little to no weight at all, because all we REALLY know for a fact is that you can have a lot of pretty ducks in a pretty bathtub in a pretty bathroom. Oh and there's Killzones, DMCs, Final Fantasies and Tekkens coming. Big surprise.

    Dispite all that, J Allard just feels like a pretty confident guy that the 360 is well put together and that it'll deliver what the gamers expect and then some. Kudos, really.

    I'm a multiplatform gamer, by the way. I even defended Killzone in the comments thread for that review on this site, so I sure WANTED all the PS3 stuff to be every bit as exciting as it looked at first glance. So yeah, don't colour me just another fanboy.

  • johlee_99 #186 7 years ago

    Hehe... Well, this is a European based site. You gotta expect a bit of anti-Microsoft here, regardless if they had discovered the cure to every diease known to man, EG might post a negative slant.

    Great interview though, met J. Allard at Starbucks in Redmond, WA a few years ago while at a business meet. Guy had hair back then and was a hardcore gamer junkie as you see now. MS had better give him a raise and half to keep this guy. He's truly gamer gold... :-D

    And by the way, the link in the previous post was wrong for IGN. Here it is:

    htt p://xbox360.ign.com/articles/617/617951p1.html
    Edited by 1 at 21/05/05 @ 14:37

  • Gareth.de #187 7 years ago

    Hehe... Well, this is a European based site. You gotta expect a bit of anti-Microsoft here, regardless if they had discovered the cure to every diease known to man, EG might post a negative slant.

    So why is EG rimming Sony? That's not a European company either - in fact, we have shitloads more in common with MS than we do with Sony.
    Edited by 1 at 21/05/05 @ 14:48

  • Gareth.de #188 7 years ago

    From the above website:

    The Xbox 360's CPU has more general purpose processing
    power because it has three general purpose cores, and Cell
    has just one.

    Now I'm behind MS on this one as Sony is full of shit with
    its hardware releases, but simply comparing processor power
    by the number of processors is lame. By that definition, the
    Saturn is more powerful than the PS3 because that also had 3
    general purpose CPUs.

    They were only 33mhz SH-1 processors but who cares? There were THREE of them!!!!!!

    Gay.

  • ClansOfIntrigue #189 7 years ago

    Dave J UK - don't take everything you read on faith, of course Microsoft are going to say their specs are more powerful... though reading that article I am suspicious it was even written by Microsoft, 'cause it sounds like the language of a 14 year old fanboy. If it was, I'm sure it was their marketing department, not their engineers, so read it like you would an advert. As far as I'm aware, all 7 cores on the cell processor are general purpose, they have exactly the same instruction set and access to memory & other parts of the system.

    That said, specs don't really mean a lot these days. It's just a box that plays your games, whoever makes it, and it doesn't matter how many teraflops it can handle if the games suck. Speak to any developer about the regrets they have about their game and the answer is unlikely to be "we didn't have the cpu/gpu power to do this", it's going to be "we didn't have *time* to do this". If most games seem to feel as if they're not quite finished when they hit the shops, it's because they're really not - things always have to be cut due to time constraints, and there will be many features the developers wanted to put in but couldn't because of time, or wanted to polish & tune better but couldn't because of time. More processing power helps this to a degree because the developers don't have to spend so much time optimising and cheating to get stuff into memory or get the frame rate up, but then user's expectations for content increase by the same amount so you end up back where you started. The biggest factor on how good the games will be is not the number of textured lit polys the machine can draw, it's the tools that the developers have available to them to help them put in all the content they want you to have.

    In this area, Microsoft definitely do have an advantage, because there's a ton of tools & code & information out there for DirectX. PS3 programmers are going to have to learn a whole new system when they start making games, with hacky compilers & exporters that have been written afresh, whilst X360 programmers should be able to adapt existing DirectX code & tools very quickly. Sony seem to be aware of this, however, and we'll have to see how much effort they've put into addressing the problem and making sure their developers can get their games up & running on the machine as quickly as possible - so that their development time can be spent on things that *actually* matter like putting together game mechanics and levels.

    The most true thing I've read in the past week is that "gamers don't buy tech demos, they buy games". Since we're *far* too early to be able to make meaningful statements about the games on either platform, let's all just take a chill-pill and wait until there's something to fight about that actually matters?

  • Nikanoru #190 7 years ago

    Haha, read all those pages of long and fucking boring numbers and specs and stupid useless bullshit....then listen to Iwata's speech again.

  • smelly #191 7 years ago

    I find it interesting that when nintendo plyed down graphics and said innovation and playability were what mattered, all the fanboys said "well that must mean their system is shit then", despite nintendo saying that their system is graphically comparable to the other two, the fanboys took that because nintendo have said games are more important than graphics to mean their graphics are crap...

    But now microsoft are sayin the same thing... And the fanboys rejoice...

    But erm.. who has the best track record for this kinda thing?

  • OnlyMe #192 7 years ago

    @captain-future: Yeah, the live is noteworthy, but then again, considering the experience with online gaming on the PC, I expected nothing less from them. Although the online gaming part may well be changing in the next generation, depending on how well Sony does it this time, or Nintendo. Anyway, the first party titles I was talking about was The Getaway (which may or may not be a good game someday), ICO, Shadow of the Colossus (not yet released though), The Mark of Kri and its sequel, Gran Turismo series and last but definately not least, God of War. First or Second party, I consider that the same thing, since it's Sony actually OWNS the companies. That way I could consider Naughty Dogs games too - the Jak and Daxter series. Not sure about Insomniacs Ratchet and Clank series though. Are they owned, or do they only have an exclusivity deal.

    To straighten things out a bit, I don't consider games that only are exclusive under a timed contract as PURE exclusives. That kind of exclusivity is always subject to change. Games like Jak and Daxter are created by a company OWNED by Sony, therefore it's more "pure" than, for example Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy or Grand Theft Auto, that either are exclusive for a certain amount of month, or until the contract expires or invalidated.

    Truth is, I don't really see much difference between first party and second party titles. The only difference is the name of the division, or company, the actually employees are coming and going all the time anyways. The main thing is, as long as it's a company that's owned by Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo, I count it as "in-house", regardless if it's theoretically wrong or not. Not unlike Rare or Bungie for Microsoft.

    BTW, Microsoft really doesn't have much of an eye for quality, have they? I mean, Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath and Psychonauts both were originally Xbox exclusive (heck I bought an Xbox because of Psychonauts back then), but they manage to support crap like BOTH Blinx games? And they spent millions on Rare, and I think that Nintendo pulled the longest straw in that deal, at least from what we've seen so far.

  • Gareth.de #193 7 years ago

    How the fuck is the Revolution going to give comparable graphics to the other 2 consoles? It's only 2/3 times more powerful than the Gamecube - The Cell processor is quoted as 35 times more powerful than the PS2's EE.

    If by 'comparable' Nintendo mean that there will be a moving image on a TV then sure. But if they mean the same quality of graphics then they're talking out of their Jap arses.

    Discuss and debate.

  • drumbaby #194 7 years ago

    Damn! I just ignored our Dave :)

  • vrln #195 7 years ago

    OnlyMe: What Microsoft did is they tried ALOT of different things and threw money everywhere and then looked back to see what failed and what didn't. Sure they made mistakes but it also brought them fantastic stuff like Forza and Halo.

  • Ginza #196 7 years ago

    Head on over to www.greenhillzone.co. uk to talk more about this article.

  • brombeer #197 7 years ago

    When M$ is so creative, why can't they even implement backwards compatibility then? Sony as hell can: the PS3 even plays old PS1 games. The PS2 could do that already! The CPU's and GPU's were all different on those systems, so it's no argument! It's important to me, because I have a large games collection and I don't want to have six consoles under my TV...

    And saying that it will be easier to develop on Xbox than PS3: it's bullshyte. Developers of the PS2 are already familiar with programming multiple hardware threads (4 in this case), Now its 7. It's the Xbox 360 programmers who have to learn this.

    I'm not a Sony fanboy, but I get a bit frustrated by Microsoft. The backwards compatibilty which simply is not there (I think newly compiled versions of the most popular games (i.e. Microsoft Games) will be sold seperatly), really gets me annoyed. If Allard is a hardcore gamer, he should know better...
    Edited by 1 at 22/05/05 @ 05:18

  • RS3York1 #198 7 years ago

    brombeer said:

    "When M$ is so creative, why can't they even implement
    backwards compatibility then? Sony as hell can: the PS3 even
    plays old PS1 games. The PS2 could do that already! The
    CPU's and GPU's were all different on those systems, so it's
    no argument!"

    A couple things to think about.
    1 - Backwards compatibility is not the relative of creativity. In fact it promotes you experiencing the same thing again instead of playing something new. Is it nice? Yes. Creative? No.

    2 - Sony designed the chips in the PS1 & PS2. Therefore they own the designs and can use them in any form without concern. nVidia designed the GPU in the Xbox 1 & Intel designed the CPU - MS is no longer using those 2 manufacturers, but each manufacturer owns their respective chip design and any propriety technology invovled in those chips.

    Because nVidia owns the tech in the Xbox 1 GPU and MS is using ATI, MS must either pay nVidia for their tech or find a way to get the code to work without it. The two situations aren't even close - So you better believe there's an argument.

    brombeer said: "And saying that it will be easier to
    develop on Xbox than PS3: it's bullshyte. Developers of the
    PS2 are already familiar with programming multiple hardware
    threads (4 in this case), Now its 7. It's the Xbox 360
    programmers who have to learn this."

    You sure about that?

    Do you know why there's such a large disparity in technical competence between games like GT4 & multiplatform game X? *Most developers didn't really bother with the PS2's vector units*. Why? Because they were difficult to utilize and the tools Sony supplied didn't rectify that problem.

    nVidia is helping with the development tools so Sony will have help this time around - that's a good sign. However, games are built around the world on MS APIs to work on the most prevalent gaming platform - Windows-based PCs. Oddly, Windows is also a piece of Microsoft software.

    Plus developers have been saying the same thing about MS with the Xbox & Xbox 360 - MS has the best developer support. XNA seems to be built with easing the load off of devs - which would include multithreading problems. You can't escape the simple fact - MS = Huge Software company. Sony = Huge Electronics/Media company. PS3 for ease of development? It's possible. PS3 easier to develop for than Xbox 360? Try again.

    Finally, its already been established that you won't have to buy recompiled Xbox 1 games for your Xbox 360.

    "The usually recalcitrant Microsoft bypassed its external public relations company, telling GameSpot directly that, "Our goal is to have every Xbox game work on Xbox 360. You will NOT need to purchase a new 'version.'"

    - http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/05/20/news_6126204.ht ml
    Edited by 1 at 22/05/05 @ 07:50

  • Errol #199 7 years ago

    brombeer said:

    "When M$ is so creative, why can't
    they even implement
    backwards compatibility then? Sony
    as hell can: the PS3 even
    plays old PS1 games. The PS2
    could do that already! The
    CPU's and GPU's were all
    different on those systems, so it's
    no
    argument!"

    A couple things to think about.
    1 -
    Backwards compatibility is not the relative of creativity.
    In fact it promotes you experiencing the same thing again
    instead of playing something new. Is it nice? Yes. Creative?
    No.

    2 - Sony designed the chips in the PS1 & PS2.
    Therefore they own the designs and can use them in any form
    without concern. nVidia designed the GPU in the Xbox 1 &
    Intel designed the CPU - MS is no longer using those 2
    manufacturers, but each manufacturer owns their respective
    chip design and any propriety technology invovled in those
    chips.

    Because nVidia owns the tech in the Xbox 1
    GPU and MS is using ATI, MS must either pay nVidia for their
    tech or find a way to get the code to work without it. The
    two situations aren't even close - So you better believe
    there's an argument.

    brombeer said: "And saying
    that it will be easier to
    develop on Xbox than PS3: it's
    bullshyte. Developers of the
    PS2 are already familiar
    with programming multiple hardware
    threads (4 in this
    case), Now its 7. It's the Xbox 360
    programmers who have
    to learn this."

    You sure about that?

    Do
    you know why there's such a large disparity in technical
    competence between games like GT4 & multiplatform game X?
    *Most developers didn't really bother with the PS2's vector
    units*. Why? Because they were difficult to utilize and the
    tools Sony supplied didn't rectify that
    problem.

    nVidia is helping with the development
    tools so Sony will have help this time around - that's a
    good sign. However, games are built around the world on MS
    APIs to work on the most prevalent gaming platform -
    Windows-based PCs. Oddly, Windows is also a piece of
    Microsoft software.

    Plus developers have been
    saying the same thing about MS with the Xbox & Xbox 360 - MS
    has the best developer support. XNA seems to be built with
    easing the load off of devs - which would include
    multithreading problems. You can't escape the simple fact -
    MS = Huge Software company. Sony = Huge Electronics/Media
    company. PS3 for ease of development? It's possible. PS3
    easier to develop for than Xbox 360? Try again.


    Finally, its already been established that you
    won't have to buy recompiled Xbox 1 games for your Xbox 360.


    "The usually recalcitrant Microsoft bypassed its
    external public relations company, telling GameSpot directly
    that, "Our goal is to have every Xbox game work on Xbox 360.
    You will NOT need to purchase a new 'version.'"

    -
    http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/05/20/news_6126204.ht ml

    Do you really expect anybody to read this ?

  • abeit #200 7 years ago

    From this E3 it looks like the DS and PS3 came out smiling while revolution was a disappointmen. X-Box wasfair enough.

  • vrln #201 7 years ago

    Errol: Yes, actually alot of people probably find that post very good. I sure do. It was a very good replyif you ask me.

    brombeer: Where to start... What exactly has backwards compatibility to do with creativity? I'm not sure if I follow your logic. You are aware that x86 and powerpc are completely different architectures and that x86 is not owned my Microsoft? Or that the Nvidia cards have a completely different architecture and so on compared to ATI cards and that Microsoft does not own the rights to it. The problem with backwards compatibility is a legal problem less than a technical one. I for one could care less about backwards compatibility, never played any PS1 games on my PS2 either. The fact that PS2 had it doesn't really mean anything at all, you are aware that the PS1 tech is so ancient it's practically free so they just includes it in the hardware? And last but not least, you have absolutely no idea whatsoever how the Xbox360 backwards compatibility is going to turn out. Microsoft has already said that you will NOT have to buy any recompiled games. What they have said is that they will have backwards compatibility, at least for most games. I'm betting all of my Xbox games will fall to that category, and if one doesn't I honestly could care less, and I doubt others care that much either as long as almost everything works.

    Next up, development. You are aware that development tools play a very big role here? MS is not the #1 software company without having any talent there. They obviously know that stuff very well and that's reflected to the first Xbox already - the development tools are superior. The fact that Sony is getting help from Nvidia with the tools already says alot, doesn't it? I'm not saying that the PS3 dev tools will be horrible, obviously I can't know that, but Sony's track record here is not as good as Microsofts, that is a simple fact. How example will knowing VU code help programmers with PS3 games that will likely be programmed in C? Your architecture comparison is too simplified. The CELL is a very complex CPU and it's not simply "multithreaded programming just as on the Xbox360". It doesn't have 7 full cores that people are used to. It has "normal" 1 core and 7 something else, something exotic, something new. The Xbox360 on the other hand has "normal" 3 cores with hyperthreading, which is not exactly new. Everyone will have to learn parallel programming on the next gen of course, but your comparison is simply far too simplified. Judging from all this, it's actually the Xbox360 that is most likely easier to develop for, not the PS3.

    It has been denied by many parties at Microsoft that you will not have to buy any recompiled binaries and so on.
    Edited by 1 at 22/05/05 @ 14:03

  • brombeer #202 7 years ago

    It's creative that a PS3 still runs PS1. As a chief programmer, I can say that with confidence. Programming is a creative process, as is hardware development. And Microsoft has made more claimes which didn't come true. E3 was a nice example! I WANT to play the library of Final Fantasy again from part I to XII and I can. I think it IS important, so don't tell me it's false. My opinion is TRUE. For me it's TRUE. You may differ in opinion, but it is still true. Furthermore I do know (probably more than you) about the differences in CPU's and GPU's. And that's where creativity comes looking around the corner. Making the one architecture working on the other architecture, via emulators. It is not for nought that they were very silent about backwards compatibilty. They are not creative enough to make it work. Windows is a nice example of that. Sony can make a PS1 and PS2 work on a derivate of a PowerPC processor. So could Microsoft.
    Edited by 1 at 22/05/05 @ 12:25

  • brombeer #203 7 years ago

    Funny how you all take in Microsoft's 'information' as being true. You'll see...

  • Gareth.de #204 7 years ago

    Errol: Yes, I found that post very interesting.

    Bckwards compatability IS important for me as I already have 3 consoles under my TV and another one collecting dust in the cupboard. I don't want to have to add any more, and if the 360 could do the job of the Xbox, my Xbox would suddenly find itself on ebay.

    As for how exactly they are going to do it - anyone remember Bleem! for Dreamcast? Early in development they stated that *most* PS games would work on Dreamcast but not all... of course in the end they went with specialised versions for different games. Sony sued them into the ground though because the games were for their console. If some kind of Bleem!-type emulator was to run on Xbox 360 with MS approval though... this could pave the way for Xbox games!

  • vrln #205 7 years ago

    I'm sorry for the tone of my reply, it was a bit out of touch - so was your first post though if you ask me :) First of all, If your a programmer by profession I find it a bit odd that you can make such statements about backwards compatibility as you obviously are aware of the architecture issues (same goes for your statement about development). Many Xbox project members have already denied the "buy a recompiled version" thing, I don't see how they could blatantly lie to the public - I quess we'll see in 5 months then.

    The problem isn't really the emulation, Microsoft purchased the company behind the best x86 on ppc emulator so I think they have the skill. The problem is the legal issues around it. If I recall correctly Sony is including the PS2 chipset in PS3, so it comes with PS1 and PS2 compatibility. I agree there, you have a very good point - Microsoft could also include some things of the first Xbox, I think they are saving money there :) What are these claims that MS has promised that haven't become true (console wise, not OS)?

    About the backwards compatibility being important, I never claimed my opinion about that is some kind of fact and that your wrong. I just meant to say that it isn't important for everyone. I admit though that it is important for many people and I can understand that - I don't like having many consoles near the TV either, not to mention the cable jungle. It's just that I rarely (=never) play any last-gen games to be honest, old retro stuff is another thing though. That's just me though and I'm sure alot of people will disagree.

    The main point doesn't change though, which is that MS has already confirmed the "buy a recompiled version" as a false rumour. Sure they haven't actually said how the backwards compatibility will work, but they have said the majority of games will work. What exactly that means remains to be seen, but that already is good backwards compatibility in my eyes. My quess is that since they have a HD by default, they will include recompiled binaries of around ~100 games or so on the harddrive by default, and that it'll work completely transparently.

    Sure I think you probably know alot more than me about CPU/GPU differences and architectures, I'm not even trying to deny that. Your previous post (the one I answered to) doesn't exactly show that though. The CELL is nowhere near the more or less conservative CPU choice that the Xbox360 has chosen, and that the multithreaded programming statement is far too simplified (and I think you know it too, even better than I do) too. As I already said though, developers for both platforms will obviously have to learn multithreaded parallel programming. The same goes for development tools, as a professional programmer I find it a bit odd that you can so easily state that the PS3 will be just as easy to program for, especially since MS has some very good tools out there and the PS2 has been a pain to program for (Sony even admit it themselves). Of course though, I don't think Sony is dumb either and has learned from their mistakes - how much though, that remains to be seen. I' m still critical at this point - Sony has not actually proven much yet.
    Edited by 1 at 22/05/05 @ 13:12

  • captain-future #206 7 years ago

    some random thoughts put in this posting.

    1. I read a lot of the long posting here because the are informative.
    2. Am I the only one who gets more and more the feeling that X360 sounds a bit like Dreamcast?
    3. Sony did it: the pulled the marketing stunt of the year because everybody wanted to believe their pre-rendered real-time tech-demos powered by millions of gigaflops or something...
    4. I like J Allard too. Although he's a strange guy... but I believe he is dedicated to gamers.
    5. I'm going to buy every next-gen console IF the price is right (definition of the "right price" for me is: 299 EUR max.) If it's more expensive in the beginning I will wait.
    6. I own every console since the NES with the exeption of SEGA (except Dreamcast which I own).
    7a. I'm biased against Sony because of their fake demos and sloppy PS2 design (I've my third already because the other 2 broke) and you gotta hate that MPEG chip in it. poor picture quality OMG!
    7b. I like Sony for their great collection of exclusive games and because of their backwards compatibility.
    8a. I'm biased against Microsoft because the introduce next-gen a year too early for my taste and I think Halo is just plain mediocre.
    8b. I like MS for waking up the marketing, lowering prices on consoles and cool online service.
    9a. I'm biased against Nintendo because the will "sure as hell" get a lot of money from me with their backwards revolution and for having no good third party support on Gamecube.
    9b. I like Nintendo for their "laid back attitude" about next-gen, their exclusive franchsises like Zelda...

  • Scimarad #207 7 years ago

    "...and you gotta hate that MPEG chip in it. poor picture
    quality OMG! "

    Huh?

  • brombeer #208 7 years ago

    @vrln: Thanks for your vote of confidence now. It was a very good comment you gave there. A bit different from the previous :) I certainly think so too that it's a money and time issue that Xbox isn't backwards compatible. They just WANT to be the first, since they think that's how the PS2 got such a huge base of users. I don't blame them, but they omit certain features that gamers, especially in my age category (I'm 34), just want. For me it's certainly a no-buy for Xbox 360. I'm feeling a bit conned by having a rather large Xbox library which I probably can't play anymore on the Xbox 360. I already have three consoles now. It's enough. I want to replace, not stack up.

    And it's true the PS2 was difficult to program, but seeing the larger library of PS2 games than Xbox games and (in my opinion) better games for the system, I think it's not that big an issue. Don't forget the dev-kit has evolved too in these 5 years. And all this expertise will be quite a handy legacy for the programming of the PS3. It's not going to stop publishers creating games for the PS3, that's for sure. They would be cutting their own hands off. Or be taken over by Microsoft, right Bungie? ;-)
    Edited by 3 at 22/05/05 @ 16:59

  • Gareth.de #209 7 years ago

    A couple of points:

    1. Gamers really have no choice to buy the 360 if they want a
    next gen console without having to wait another year...

    Erm, that's really pointless. There's lots of life left in the current generation (even on Xbox) so no-one HAS to upgrade. They will because they want to, not because they are forced to by some unknown entity. If everyone was forced to buy a next-gen console simply because it was the only one on the market, we'd have a new 'next-gen' console released every 3 months as it would be a serious cash-cow.

    2. Although I'm sure MS has lots of tools and development aids for all the developers out there who are making 360 games, it's not quite as straight-forward as some people on here are saying as the ATI GPU is *not* powered by DirectX, nor is it powered by OpenGL. The API it is powered by is loosely based on these yes, but to take advantage of the specific functions of the card it has been changed, so it's not just a case of PC developers porting stuff right over in a matter of 3 minutes like some would have you believe.

    My source? http://www.extremetech.com/art icle2/0,1558,1818127,00.asp?kc=ETRSS02129TX1K0000532



  • malloc #210 7 years ago

    Ermm, anyone understand what he was saying?

    The way he talks, he knows that M$ have a lot of power (well money) they just don't know what to do with it to get what they want. It's slightly comical, and no wonder he's squirming.

  • dk_rare #211 7 years ago

    So to sum this up:

    Sony and M$ embarresed themselves by touting specs, Nintendo owned them both by pointing that out and saying that they (Nintendo) are about creativity.

    So now xbox are in damage control, with Allard just emulating what Nintendo said.

    Great.

  • brombeer #212 7 years ago

    @dk_rare: That's about the gist of it, yeah...

  • Les #213 7 years ago

    This story has been on top of the page for the whole weekend! Eurogamer is biased in favour of 360! ;-)

  • Scimarad #214 7 years ago

    " So to sum this up:

    Sony and M$ embarresed themselves by touting specs, Nintendo
    owned them both by pointing that out and saying that they
    (Nintendo) are about creativity.

    So now xbox are in damage control, with Allard just
    emulating what Nintendo said.

    Great."

    So basically, marketting bull all round and fanboys using it all as an excuse to align selves on the appropriate side. Ahhhh, what a show of maturity...:-)

  • Moggo #215 7 years ago

    When I first read Eurogamer's perspective of the big kerfuffle surroundoing their opinion on the Xbox 360, I agreed with what they had to say in their editorial in answer to speculation they were bias.

    However, after reading more of the articles since then, there seems to be a hell of alot of hypocrisy coursing through the staff's veins of EG. Xbox 360 copped a cruel serve from the editors, and this seems unfair when you note that PS3 mirrored alot of the mistakes EG criticised Microsoft for committing, yet did not cop the same treatment. Nor was Harrison grilled to the extent that Allard was, despite the fact the PS3 had alot more to answer for in terms of WHERE THE HELL WAS THE IN-GAME FOOTAGE?

    Christ. I do not believe EG is bias in any shape or form, but they do not help themselves with some double standards in recent days. I'll continue reading EG religiously, but blimey. You certainly made me question some things...

  • jawolf #216 7 years ago

    Vrin-
    the reasons why MS is the biggest software company =
    *Purchasing and repackaging competition
    *Allowing the lowest common denominator to program- VB, Wizard based coding for VC++.
    *Running campaigns of FUD against competition
    *Making software incompatible with competing products( DR Dos, Java )
    *Making a good initial contract with IBM!
    [/i]How example will knowing VU code help programmers with PS3 games that will likely be programmed in C.[/i]

    My counter question would be, how would general programming in C on a PC/XBox get you ready for controlling 6 distinct processors (tell me how many Windows C apps are programmed well with threading). I'm guessing parallelisation of a problem is a new thing for many developers, unless you are in the distributed computing area. Coding for the VU would get you in the mindset for parallel processing - see http://playstation2-linux.com/ files/agdc2002/Introducing_PS2_to_PC_programmers.ppt&quo t; for a good read. The idea of the producer-consumer and parallelisation is something the PS2 introduces a developer to very well. It lends well to the multiple SPE design (process-> give to next unit-> process-> give next unit etc). It also lends well to XBox 360's programming(maybe they should offer a DCOM interface ;o) )

    The Xbox360 on the other hand has "normal" 3 cores with hyperthreading, which is not exactly new.
    Apart from database servers and rendering packages, tell me how many applications use hyperthreading/multi-processor items well? Look at most sites benchmarks for games. For many programmers, who have never used threading before, it will be a non-trivial step. Without learning thread safe coding and figuring out how to break up a problem into units of work the hardware will not perform brilliantly. Not all problems do have a solution that lends well to multiple cores.

    If I was making a choice over who to code the XBox 360- I'd choose a PS2 developer over a PC developer. Most of the stuff I fix in my time as a programmer is fixing rubbish done in those wonderful development tools MS provides(yes both in C/C++ and the damn awful Visual Basic)! The reason MS has so much success in the outside world is because their tools hand hold the developer, and don't promote understanding of what is being produced in wizards. It is like being breast fed for your whole life and never needing to find your own food(you live but you'd never survive on your own without the supple nipple of Visual Studio)!

    The concept of recompiling an application and offering a binary for backwards compatibility is good for us, and not Microsoft. The more targeted the application/game is for the XBox hardware the more effort will be needed to port it! It is a win for the end user, who in effect it is getting a free port of the application (if only you got that when you moved from Windows Office to Mac Office!).

    If an underpowered CPU/GPU combo give me more fun games, I'm all there!
    I had better stop ranting
    (edited url to presentation- and formatting - doesn't like unordered lists without breaks)
    Edited by 2 at 23/05/05 @ 11:32

  • Les #217 7 years ago

    "hehe. obviously MS is not "in it" for the money at the first
    look. IMHO MS tries to bring the "PC" to the living room
    through the backdoor (and then cash in on "must have"
    services like LIVE). "

    The ONLY reason M$ went into the console business is that it saw Sony's intentions with the PlayStation brand as a threat to it's Windows cash cow. Sony wants to make PlayStation the media portal in everly living room. If Sony succeeds, consumers that e.g. only need a device for web browsing and viewing pictures from their digital cameras will not have to buy a PC anymore. And this will hurt M$. Because virtually every PC that is bought comes with a copy of Windows installed and in this way the majority of M$'s revenues are created.

    So M$ is willing to take losses on the Xbox because it has to. Xbox must be a success, otherwise longterm earnings will come under threat. I think that if Sony said to M$ "Alright, we will use Windows Media Edition as the OS for PS3" M$ would immediately pull the plug on 360. M$ doesn't want to be a hardware company and once they have forced Sony and Nintendo out of the mainstream market, they will probably license other companies to build the Xbox, much like every company nowadays can build PCs.
    Edited by 1 at 23/05/05 @ 12:09

  • Shinji #218 7 years ago

    Nor was Harrison grilled to the extent that
    Allard was, despite the fact the PS3 had alot more to answer
    for in terms of WHERE THE HELL WAS THE IN-GAME FOOTAGE?

    Um. For a start, Allard and Harrison were interviewed by different journalists, in very different settings, which explains much of the different approach. For another thing, Harrison was pretty honest about most stuff I felt - he said straight out that the game footage wasn't real-time, admitted that the company had catching up to do with MS in the online area, answered hardware questions straight up and so on.

    Sure, I could have pressed him by shouting "WHERE'S THE IN-GAME FOOTAGE?" at his face over and over again, but the answer isn't exactly obscure, is it? It's 12 months from launch and sod all developers have dev kits, so there isn't any! Point me at a console a year from launch that's shown off real-time game footage...

    Sony has tough questions to answer, you're right - but they don't have answers for them right now, and can't be expected to, given how far away their launch is. As soon as they're in a position to know, we'll be asking those questions, but the simple reality of the situation is that there's a lot more to grill a man with a console launching in five months over than there is when you're talking to a man with a console a year or more away.

  • Scimarad #219 7 years ago

    Unfortunately I think you're wasting your breath with a lot of people, Shinji :-(

    It seems that an awful lot of people have somehow maneuvered themselves into a Microsoft:Good, Sony:Bad point of view despite what anyone says. And before anybody says the reverse is also true I certainly don't see much evidence of it...

    Hopefully people will start acting with a bit more objectivity and maturity before long - And that goes for BOTH sides (not heard much from the hardcore Nintendo fanboys!)

    I think most of MY anticipation is now pointed towards a certain PC game called Spore...


    What's with the formatting screwup when you edit?
    Edited by 1 at 23/05/05 @ 18:19

  • Yossarian #220 7 years ago

    Hey look guys, Penny Arcade got it right today!

  • Scimarad #221 7 years ago

    I rest my case

  • Yossarian #222 7 years ago

    Why? Because I pointed out a site maintained scepticism about all sides, but came to the fairly straightforward conclusion that there was more to be sceptical about on Sony's front?

  • Carrybagma #223 7 years ago

    Shinji on in-game footage:
    "It's 12 months from launch and sod all developers have dev kits, so there isn't
    any! Point me at a console a year from launch that's shown off real-time game footage...

    Sony has tough questions to answer, you're right - but they don't have answers for them right now, and can't be expected to, given how far away their launch is."

    So, Sony showed footage of things we may not ever get to play, powerpointed some some numbers and gave a irritatingly evasive interview and yet you still maintain that your socks deserved to be blown off by it all?? I wouldn't have really cared if you hadn't bothered to try defending this position!

    Let's say Nintendo has pinched some of the action scenes from Revenge of the Sith before anyone had seen them and passed them off as being 'representative' of what they were hoping to achieve, would you have been even more impressed? Did the merits of the 360 and PS3 really come down to the style of each company's presentations? (For that's all is was - style over substance). Having mentioned Nintendo, although some posters may be correct in assuming that they gave a relatively low-key presentation because they didn't have a powerful console to show off, I'd still give them credit for not attempting to fool people (and journalists).

    I've not bothered with other games sites for E3 coverage, so I've been pretty accepting of what you've written so far. In one important aspect you've let me down, and that's in terms of balance. Your coverage could be characterised as crack cocaine - a big rush and then a low, by which I mean that your next-gen coverage has completely eclipsed anything from the actual show that may have been good in isolation. Maybe there was not much good there anyway(!), but I found myself waiting for the next wonderful bit of next-gen news that never came, and paying little attention to everything else. Perhaps I'm in a minority of one, but for everything I've read in this thread and the Phil Harrison one, I feel you shot yourselves in the foot.

    Still, I'm looking forward to your post-E3 analysis, and -hell!- you even provoked me to register and join in the posting!

    Edit: Urghh - sorrrry. Another long post, as if anyone needs more....
    Edited by 1 at 24/05/05 @ 00:33

  • Shinji #224 7 years ago

    by which I mean that your next-gen coverage has completely
    eclipsed anything from the actual show that may have been
    good in isolation

    I think this was always going to happen. The next-gen stuff is big, new and controversial. We're in the astonishing position now where generally reasonable people on both sides of the argument are getting so hot under the collar about it that they're spinning incredible conspiracy theories, making up nonsense technobabble to justify their positions and accusing people of outright lying in a way which would be hugely commercially damaging for them if it were true. That kind of thing doesn't happen every day in the games business! It was inevitable that it would dominate the front pages.

    We hope to really redress this balance in the next couple of weeks, though. We didn't spend all of E3 chasing down next-gen scuttlebutt - myself, Tom and Kristan all have huge lists of game previews and interviews to sort out over the coming days, and we'll be trying to cover pretty much every major title that caught our eyes on the show floor. Now that the next-gen madness has died down a bit for a while, it's time to talk about the games we'll actually be playing in the next six months, and that's where our coverage will focus for the next while :)

  • Scimarad #225 7 years ago

    Might I suggest you please, please re-introduce the "Lastest Comments" sections - It really keeps discussions alive.

  • Moggo #226 7 years ago

    Now, don't get me wrong fellas, I do not believe that EG is biased at all, nor do I think they meant to come across so pro-Sony as much as you ultimately did. However, I AM of the strong belief that you fucked up.

    I simply feel that you were unbalanced in your analysis of the Xbox 360 and PS3 when they were side by side. You criticised Microsoft's IN-GAME FOOTAGE as not being next-gen enough, but when Sony presented CGI footage and game cutscenes, you boys certainly loved that! "The real next-gen", you labelled this CGI footage. That is utter crap.

    If KillZone ends up looking even remotely as it did in this pre-rendered footage EG took as an indication of the real next-gen, then I'll be ahead of you in the queue on launch morning. But sheesh, if you're going to criticise Xbox's showing, which provided actual game footage, a true indication of what the next-gen may look like, at least then put things into perspective.

    You can't tell me that between fake presentation and a realistic presentation, that fake will win out simply because it looks shinier. It just makes for bad journalism. There was no fact in Sony's presentation. At least Microsoft had a semblance of fact in there's.

    Like Penny Arcade said, "They even showed the intro from Final Fantasy VII in "Real Time(!!!!)," but I can't possibly be the only person who remembers they trotted out a "Real Time" dance scene from VIII when they launched the PS2 - can I? You ever see shit like that on your Playstation 2?"

    And I'd just like EG to clarify one thing.

    From the "Reaction, Not Bias" article, you said the following:

    "we can comfortably say that there was a heck of a lot of stuff going on in real time at the Sony conference. You can't pause computer-generated pre-rendered imagery and rotate around the objects using a control pad."

    However, then you said this:

    "For another thing,
    Harrison was pretty honest about most stuff I felt - he said
    straight out that the game footage wasn't real-time".

    Well, which one is it?

    Edited by 2 at 24/05/05 @ 14:53

  • Shinji #227 7 years ago

    I can't possibly be the only person who
    remembers they trotted out a "Real Time" dance scene from
    VIII when they launched the PS2 - can I? You ever see shit
    like that on your Playstation 2?

    Er, yes. Yes I have. Have you SEEN the real-time dance scene demo recently? It looks awful compared to the graphics in modern PS2 games - miles behind stuff like MGS3 or Xenosaga, for example. People seem to have forgotten that they didn't actually render the cutscene as seen in FFVIII in real-time, they rendered significantly lower detail versions of the characters dancing around in a largely empty room.

    The years have not been kind to Sony on this. People remember the PS2 tech demos as being something they really, really weren't.


    Well, which one is it?

    It's both. There was a pretty even combination of real-time and pre-generated footage at the Sony conference. All the tech demos and the Unreal demo were real-time. Most of the game footage was pre-generated (whether that involves being actually rendered to spec, or being pre-generated from a real engine and composited in a video package).

  • Les #228 7 years ago

    Those PS2 tech demo's really haven't aged well and like Shinji says most current PS2 games look way better. Shame that 'someone' said "PS2 never lived up to the tech demos" and that all kinds of fools go copy that statement without checking whether it's true or not...

    As for the PS3 footage showed on E3, I thought Fight Night was the most impressive. Even though the backgrounds were rather bland, the character models and animation were truely stunning, way better than what was shown in the Killzone video. And it was real-time, just like the Unreal 3 demo, which by the way ran quite smooth on PS3...

  • Scimarad #229 7 years ago

    " Now, don't get me wrong fellas, I do not believe that EG is
    biased at all, nor do I think they meant to come across so
    pro-Sony as much as you ultimately did. However, I AM of
    the strong belief that you fucked up. "

    And I am of the strong belief that I trust their opinion far more than I trust the people complaining about them - The fact that you brought up those bloody PS2 demos again shows you haven't particularly checked your facts. If that is FFVII demo is as demonstrative of the power of the PS3 as those PS2 demos were it is going to pretty damned impressive indeed.

  • Mr_Brown #230 7 years ago

    Well I have to admit I didn't agree with EG E3 comments at all. But I have to give them credit for that interview. They asked him hard questions but I think Allard spoke sense and hopefully brought Eurogamer back to their senses too.

    Graphics don't make a game. And 'great graphics' don't make a console more 'next gen' that another. Something Eurogamer have certainly stated. I'm really looking forward to getting 360. Software wise they are stronger than Nintendo and PS3, maybe because they haven't announced any solit info yet. Which is the effect Microsoft want. I hope this interview as put things into perspective for Eurogamer and I hope they don't let hype get the m carried away again.

  • Les #231 7 years ago

    "Software wise they are stronger than Nintendo and PS3,
    maybe because they haven't announced any solit info yet"

    I don't get this. Probably my own fault though. But it still is funny that the company that is now constantly shouting that Xbox has superior graphics to PS2 now says that for the next-gen graphics will not be important...

    Of course graphics will not make a game. Disgaea is my all time favourite PS2 game and that could have been done on PS1 or maybe even SNES. But as M$ has few great exclusive IP, it must score in the multi-platform area. IF they can't play the "better graphics" in the next round, that will seriously hurt them. Why buy a 360 if you can get the better looking Pro Evo, Madden, Need for Speed, Collin McRae, Tony Hawk, Prince, etc. etc. on PS3l, along with a whole bunch of strange and innovative little titles? Only a rushed Halo 3 comes to mind...
    Edited by 1 at 24/05/05 @ 21:13

  • vrln #232 7 years ago

    I'm back :) I quess I'll have to continue this argument after all. First of all I'll apologise for some of my comments, they were a bit too "rambling" and not very thought out, in other words written with too many emotions (well, frustration) in mind (for example the first reply to brombeer). If someone compares this to my other post on the Harrison thread, no this is not some kind of veiled request for a EG apology.

    jawolf: I'm fully aware why Microsoft is the #1 software company. I don't think that it's that simple though, they do have alot of talent and actually good products too. Actually I believe they more or less deserve their current position. Sure they have been "slightly" abusing their position sometimes, I've never even tried to deny that. I don't exactly buy the whole "M$ is evil" mentality though, it's just a company that is trying to make money. Sometimes with slightly shady ethics, but I don't really think other companies are any different in that regard. I'm actually a hardcore (GNU/)Linux user so I'm fully aware of the various "Get the facts!" campaigns and so on.

    As for the comments about the C vs VU thing. I admit your right here - my argument was flawed. Parallel programming is going to be new to everyone though, to some more than to others. Programming on the PS2 is still not near what's actually in store for next-gen consoles, but I'm not qualified to comment much about that, as I'm no developer. And last, about the backwards compatibily, the precompiled binaries thing isn't sure at all yet, it's purely speculation. Time will tell what happens :)

    lavalant: I think you have a good point there, I at least find it hard to "go back" to the last (or current, depending on your point of view) once a new console is out. Retro stuff is another thing though. Alot of people I know share this opinion at least. With the Dreamcast you could never be sure if the company is there to stay, but MS does have the resources so I think the early launch might turn out to be a pretty good idea.

    Scimarad: What do you base your argument that you trust a certain person more than others on? I find it a pretty odd statement. It's the words that count, not the authority level. Sure professionals are professionals and must have a pretty good insight on the things since it's their job, but that doesn't mean you can just throw away any comments that oppose their point of view, especially if they are actually provided with good arguments.

    Shinji:

    I admit I haven't seen the original tech-demos for a long time and that I have a memory of them being something unbelievable - and your probably right that time has made those memories golden. The FF8 dance scene in real time is just one example though - Sony provided a pretty impressive amount of far-fetched PR talk regarding the PS2 and I still strongly disagree that the PS2 has come anywhere near those promises. This includes pretty many things, for example the realtime Toy Story claim, overall talk about the PS2 being a "supercomputer", the "Old Mans face", trees having invididually animated branches that use a physics engine and so on. The list goes on, I don't think any single company, with the exception of Nintendo during the "Project Reality" days has managed to overhype a single product that badly. The PS2 also suffers from many technical flaws, like the very small amount of VRAM compared to what games would have already liked to use in this generation.

    I've talked about Sony having a track record doing this kind of thing, and I still stand by that statement. This doesn't just include hardware, but software itself: KillZone and The Getaway are prime examples of overhyped, even blatantly false advertising. I do not believe Sony has much integrity left in this regard, which is why I'll continue to take everything they say with alot of sceptism until the PS3 development is further along. One good example of the software side is The Getaway: http://koti.mbnet.fi/jadelor/random/fuck%20you,%20sony .jpg
    Edited by 2 at 25/05/05 @ 16:27

  • vrln #233 7 years ago

    There's something odd with editing posts right now... my previous post didn't include around 50% of the stuff I wrote, so I'm continuing it here:

    small disclaimer about that anti-sony pic I pasted: I have NOT made it, nor do I host it, it's just something that was pasted to me on IRC. I have nothing at all to do with that picture itself, nor do I support the use of offensive language like that either. I do agree though that the screenshots there are a pretty good example of blatantly false advertising and hyping that Sony has done in the past - in one word misleading. I'm not claiming Sony is the only one who does it, but they have a pretty good (well, bad) track record concerning it.

    About the comments about Sony being further away, you have a good point there, it's certainly something I didn't think much about. What I still disagree with though, is that in my opinion the same argument wasn't applied to the E3 coverage this time.

    To no-one in specific: I believe it's far too early to say Microsoft is in "damage control" right now. They haven't lost anything yet, the race hasn't even started yet. To all who claim the PS3's complete technological superiority (I'm not claiming PS3 won't be more powerful - it should if it's launched later, but I mean the Xbox 1.5 vs Next Gen talk), there have been some pretty good articles from respected technology/hardware sites that state that it's anything but certain that the PS3's architecture will prove to be far superior. One good example is http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-1.a rs/1

    Anyways, it's a pretty interesting time to be a gamer. The console launch/1st gen games timeframe is at least my favourite by far. After that things always settle down a bit... We should enjoy the heated discussion (and sometimes too heated heh) and the rumour-fever while it lasts :)

  • rugbydude #234 7 years ago

    Why are most of the stories here about PS3? Isn't 360 coming out first? From the stories I've seen here this site is very pro PS3.

  • #235 7 years ago

    Click on the link if you want to know how much Sony are
    crapping there pants about the Xbox 360!

    http://www.ccfx.net/nextbo xforum/viewtopic.php?t=2322&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0