Heavy Rain Comments by Tom Bramwell

interesting one this, I like that they are trying to do something different, but good concepts do not necessarily make a good game, I look forward to seeing how it turns out though

I AM SOLD!!!!

Len Goodman is in it, hopefully you get to shoot him in the face!

Five minutes of my life were spent on reading this article and attempting to decipher what the heck it was about.

They were wasted minutes.

"whats with all the confussion? have none of you ever played farienhiet or nomad soul, netiher those games were made up of just QTE just look shenmue wasnt. Or maybe you realise that and its just 360 owners spreading propaganda early on"

What?!?

I honestly cannot tell from that whether you think Fahrenheit and Nomand Soul were good or bad.

Err, and thanks for the outta-left-field Alan Wake comment. Very refreshing.

"have none of you ever played farienhiet or nomad soul, netiher those games were made up of just QTE "

Nomad Sould was excellent, but Farenheight, after an incredibly strong start with all the knife hiding, was just twirly thumbstick bobbins. I gave up shortly after some crappy dream sequence thingy.

Whilst I genuinely hope this succeeds and actually turns into a good game, the 2 words that spring to mind most readily whenever I read about it are "Hubris" and "Vapourware".

It's never a good sign when developers start having press conferences so long before the final product is nearing completion. Or even nearing the beginning. Months of effort (probably) millions of Euros spent and what do they have to show for it?

Thought Farenheit was great, so ill just hope for this to turn out good aswell. Game or not.

So many idiots in one place. Wait until it's released you tossers, then perhaps you can pull your heads from your asses and make some kind of constructrive argument for or against it.

Most of the discussion is about Fahrenheit. Is that still allowed, so long as we stick to "constructrive" critisism?

Agree with Kangaratoo - good post.
Also agree with Garulon - I really enjoyed Nomad Soul, hated Fahrenheit.

I think Kanga pretty much hit the nail on the head with his comment about Cage being a frustrated film-maker.

this is the sort of thing that u expect to be a launch title. Woo look that pretty gwafix type thing. and then bargain bin within a week

EDIT typo

Sounds like snake oil of the highest order.

I just trollied off to look up the origin of the term snake oil, as I know what it means but not where it comes from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil

A very appropriate comparison actually, as it all seems to hinge not on what something actually IS... but what it is claimed it can do :)

"Indeed! And then EG goes on to say that they think he's wrong about this, but don't really say why. Why is he wrong to avoid the completely bobbins ending to Fahrenheit?"

I think you missed something there. EG was being a little clever, saying a realistic/ "ordinary" story arc wouldn't be as interesting as the alternative, but rather more interesting.

The Dragon's Lair reference is apt, in the worst-case scenario. Even then, if it's so much as tolerable, it might be worth playing through just to watch all the pretty, cutting-edge graphics, see an interactive story play out, etc. Could go either way.

a bit of variety never hurt anyone

Ah. Predictably excessive hatred on the comments, without anyone really knowing what the product is. If this is the typical attitude of gamers, then fresh and interesting ways to use gaming technology are going to struggle to sell. Which is a real shame.

Hopefully there are enough open-minded people from the general public interested in this game to encourage more of it.

@Chufty excessive criticism because no one knows what the product is, because David Cage doesn't want to tell us, and also because fans of Omikron: The Nomad Soul and those who felt the opening sections of Fahrenheit showed promise that was squandered are fed up of the nonsense Quantic Dreams are babbling about, and would much rather play a videogame than an interactive slideshow, HD or otherwise...

It's Art. You muindanes would not Understand it.

The scene in the Diner from Fahrenheit is one of the best sequences in any game ever. More of that please.

Is that still allowed, so long as we stick to "constructrive" critisism?

Of course it's still allowed.

But reducing someone to the term 'frustrated movie writer', just because he takes the liberty to investigate other channels for his creative vision than just the one you want to pigeonhole him in, is hardly 'constructive criticism' in my book. Even if he were (a frustrated movie writer), how exactly would that allow you to make a statement on the actual quality of the final product (or the lack thereof) -- especially since we don't know much about it?

It seems hardcore gamers are quite a conservative bunch...

wow great preview of nothing..

Outsourced game development... No real game content? Will this be postponed? Yes. Super ego designer? Yes. Will it be good? Doubt it.

I seldom judge games based on preview content, but this gives me a feeling of "Metal Gear Solid interactive movie" mixed with massive flop since there doesn't seem to be any game.

@Chufty/PrivateJoker

If we'd all suddenly picked on a game at random then you'd have a point.

However, the developer in question has deliberately gathered together a whole bunch of journalists (presumably from all over Europe), shipped them to Paris then shown them, well, nothing really. This makes them, pretty much, fair game. If you're going to paint yourself bright purple and then dance naked on the platform at Kings Cross station during rush-hour, you can't complain if a few people look at you funny.

I loved fahrenheit and this looks like it will be more of the same with a better story, cant wait.

I hope it doesn't flop simply from the point of view of he is trying to bring something different and mature to the gaming world. Let's face it games are childish and woefully inferior to film or literature and this type of narrative is way overdue. With any luck the game will add breadth and depth to the PS3 library.

Ah the Internet, a fountain of knowledge at your fingertips but also, and sadly a medium for millions of people with an opinion.

I'm weary of forums and comments sections. They're just battlegrounds for people to upstage each other with humourous comments and personal digs.

Heavy Rain? I would put money on myself loving the game but I'm sure someone will tell me otherwise.

judging by the comments one would expect game's coming out for the Wii

Finally some sort of return to old school point and click like interactivity.

"Ah the Internet, a fountain of knowledge at your fingertips but also, and sadly a medium for millions of people with an opinion.

I'm weary of forums and comments sections. They're just battlegrounds for people to upstage each other with humourous comments and personal digs. "

Fuck off and stop reading them then
See problem solved

Anyway

If they manage to get the feel of the first part of Fahrenheit then I think the game could be good, especially for a lazy sundays game, but if it turns into a story as strange, and as many bad game design decisions (stealth part anyone? QTE?) then it'll be a flop, and unfortunantly a deserved one.

Looks great, but then I loved Fahrenheit. Weak last third, but otherwise one of the freshest and most atmosphereic games of the last few years.

Now stop it with the silly exclusivity and make a PC version of Heavy Rain, so I can actually buy it.

Guys, you did read that Cage wants to avoid cutscenes?
Since he says that you can't accuse him of being a frustrated movie director!

And we already got to see quite a lot of the game, I thought the GC Gameplay Trailer looked very promising and then there was this half hour presentation in french.
Personally, I haven't played Fahrenheit, but heard all kinds of opinions on it.

The QTEs make me a bit unsure, they could still take Heavy Rain down. But since Quantic Dream has a huge budget this time around and because David Cage seemed to have learned a lesson or two it might be an amazing game in the end. We'll see.

If the game gets anywhere near the majestic feeling of riding on the back of a Collosi in Shadow of the Collosus ill eat my wii. But seriously as everyone has said all the mock up offered was ahuge qte, whats the point in being in an interactive if the player has so little interaction. If qte's are included ,even if it's just for action segments, it's still a cop out.

@ farticus:
Heck yes Fable was a good game -- but I consider myself lucky since I didn't play it until last year. All I remember of the launch were the howls of outrage at the non-growing trees, "Peter lied!", and so forth. For every one person who mentioned the game itself was pretty good, 25 people would declare it pure, unrefined vomit, based solely on the pre-launch belief in Fable -- Nothing Will Ever Be The Same: The Game (tm), and all of that was based pretty overwhelmingly on the prophetic musings of Mr. M.

By the time I played it, the outrage had faded, so I got to enjoy what turned out to be a suprisingly fun game (I say suprisingly because it's not my usual genre of choice, and after the first few hours I was convinced it would suuuuuuuuuuuck, but it was only $10 and I was bored so might as well keep playing . . . then before I know it I'm enjoying the game immensely) without the hate storm raging around me.
Like I said before, I'd love if he pulls this off, but cryptic hints at something indicerpherable and no actual demonstration send up HUGE warning flags for me. Someone mentioned the term "snake oil" in an earlier post. The first rule of being a flim-flam man: you've GOT to demonstrate something to make the rubes think there's something behind your patter. Sure, the "demonstration" may be entirely faked, a convienent plant in the audience that "volunteers" to come on stage and try you elixir, tries it then loudly declares "Zowee!! that cured my Herpes!! you're a miracle worker, Professor Potiono! I'll buy you're whole stock -- it's too good to let it get away!!" As Peter M admits with a chuckle now, Fable certainly taught him not to talk about something revolutionary until you're 100% positive you can pull it off. Even moreso with HeavyR, if I read this properly the HR director is the one that called the press to gather round, I've got something to tell you, you won't believe what's happening behind this curtain to my secret lair, werein I am prestidigating a chemical concoction so extra-revolutionary, so astounding . . . it may well change the way you think about life and death itself. Now shoo, and send in the next marks. Peter M's greatest sin was being unable to restrain himself whenever somebody got a mike in front of him (something it looks like MS and Lionhead security are slowly curbing, no doubt with a 5,000 volt remote activated dog collar under his now-constant turtlenecks) -- calling the press is an extremely deliberate move, that unfortunately has only a few possible rationales from my vantagepoint, and the majority of those are related to setting up a hustle.

"Heavy Rain" answers on why i bought the PS3

Does anyone else find the quantity of "why isn't it a game" comments (as in, more than one) absolutely bloody exasperating? This is something that at the very least should completely shake up the way game narratives and plotlines are constructed and executed and yet many of the comments seem to be "where's the mofoing crosshairs? Where are the power-ups?"

Innovation can fuck right off.

"This is something that at the very least should completely shake up the way game narratives and plotlines are constructed and executed"

It's exactly that kind of marketing bullshit that is putting people off the game.

If he'd had said 'it's a great story-driven adventure' then I suspect people would be far more receptive, as I think that's what people are after.

If the story is good then the control method doesnt have to be contrived or esoteric. For example (but not exclusively) point-and-click works in this medium, and works well. QTE's do not.

The story in Farenheit was utter toss, so I wouldn't get my hopes up!

Mayans and AI!!! feck off!!

Reading the comments here. It suddenly occurs to me that you guys really didn't realise the concept of heavy rain was utter bollocks after seeing the original presentations in the house.

Where as a lot of gamers immediately realised that the level of detail being claimed meant that the game would in no way be user controllable. It had to be a quicktime fest with pre-created scenes and canned (all be it in engine) interactions. Why? Well simply because none of the current gen consoles are powerful enough to constantly pump out the graphics and features being claimed and also handle processing of AI and user input.

The days of companies spouting bollocks claims and being believed are slowly passing. The general populace are far too tech savy these days to take such crud at face value.

Doesn't help that these are the guys who also did Farenheit (good but, hardly an interactive marvel).

@noller

"But reducing someone to the term 'frustrated movie writer', just because he takes the liberty to investigate other channels for his creative vision than just the one you want to pigeonhole him in, is hardly 'constructive criticism' in my book"

Well if I had done that, you would be quite right. But I did not.

I reduce him to frustrated movie writer for several other reasons.

1. The gameplay mechanics of Fahrenheit were clearly underdeveloped.
2. The characters were hollow stereotypes.
3. The story development was amateur.
4. The binding together of the story and gameplay was inventive at times, but heavy handed or absent at others.

And most crucially
5. I really got the sense that DG did not consider the player to be the most important part of the whole deal.


All this "takes the liberty to investigate other channels" stuff just sounds to me like another flavour of "at least he tried". Which is exactly the apologist sentiment I referred to in an earlier post.


"It seems hardcore gamers are quite a conservative bunch... "

Well firstly, you seem to assume that I'm not into the kind of game that DG is trying to produce. You would be 100% wrong in that assumption. And this raises another part of the issue.

There is this suggestion that DG is doing something new, and that anyone who doesn't like his work must not like this new direction. I suggest he is in fact NOT doing anything particular new, and what I personally have issue with is the quality of his work when viewed alongside the better examples (which I think are great).

When I played Fahrenheit, there was very little about it that struck me as not itself being conservative. Name me one part of Fahrenheit that you thought was original and I bet I can find you a prior example in video game history.

The reason why the thread has dissolved into meh is because its a high profile system exclusive thread. Wait until an Alan Wake one starts, its going to be full of the same thing. Its like when a Gears 2 one was present, moans about scripts, teh homosecks, brown. Then Killzone 2, will be rubbish because first one was, pre-rendered trailer, grey. We're all old moany mehs!

3. The story development was amateur.

That doesn't even begin to describe it. According to my save profile, when Fahrenheit dropped its 'plot twist' into the mix, I was 95% of the way through the game. The equivalent of a new plot element being introduced five minutes from the end of a film. You just can't do that and expect your audience to feel anything other than completely cheated.

Ah. Predictably excessive hatred on the comments, without anyone really knowing what the product is. If this is the typical attitude of gamers, then fresh and interesting ways to use gaming technology are going to struggle to sell. Which is a real shame.

Now, if my scepticism stemmed purely from the fact that Cage is trying to do something fresh and interesting, then this would be a valid point. But the truth of the matter is that exactly the same rhetoric surrounded Fahrenheit - which I fell for it hook, line and sinker - and then the game frankly failed to deliver on any of it. Can you really expect me to approach this with the same enthusiasm? Espeically when there doesn't actually seem to be anything there yet.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Do you fight the internet again in a QTE stylee?

I know the games not out yet, but I'd though i'd break down why everyones being so sceptical to those who think everyone's bashing for no reason.

1. His rhetoric reminds a lot of us oldies of the "interactive movie" speak of the pre-PlaySation era which produced nothing but truely awful games.
2. A lot of these 'innovations' have good reasons behind not being implemented in other games. For example, the whole when hiding in a cupboard you have to hold the controller in an uncomfortable way so relate more with the character thing. All this does is give you an uncomfortable control scheme. If people got a punched in the face everytime they lost at Virtua Fighter it wouldn't encourage them to get better or relate more but stop them playing.
3. Lack of interactivity. It seems painfully clear that you can only act with things that they want you to interact with. Why can't you throw a pillow in the situation he describes? What are the chances of having to move a pillow in one of the other 'scenes' to find a gun hidden underneath or because you need to stuff it down the toilet to flood the room or whatever. This makes the game look like a series of binary descisions or one of those adventure books (if you want to punch the elf turn to page 23 if you want to run away turn to page 18).
4. Arrogance. There are plenty of games out there with good stories, some linear like JRPGs and most adventure games, and others more interactive like Western RPGs and some other adventure games, most have good characterisation as well. And all of them started life as a game, not a tech demo.
5. The lack of any real information. He hasn't explained what the game actually is leaving us to read between the lines and assume either point and click adventure minus the point and click or interactive movie with a bit more character movement (or just possibly Myst).

In short the best we can hope for from this game is a modern BladeRunner (which was bloody fantastic, so no bad thing but not that orginal) or at worst a modern Dragons Lair (which sucked). I personally suspect it will be somewhere inbetween with the success of the game ultimately resting on the quality of it's 60 puzzles, sorry 'scenes' and how well the story connects them together.

"Do you fight the internet again in a QTE stylee?"

answer contained in article which you read I'm sure

3. Lack of interactivity. It seems painfully clear that you can only act with things that they want you to interact with. Why can't you throw a pillow in the situation he describes? What are the chances of having to move a pillow in one of the other 'scenes' to find a gun hidden underneath or because you need to stuff it down the toilet to flood the room or whatever. This makes the game look like a series of binary descisions or one of those adventure books (if you want to punch the elf turn to page 23 if you want to run away turn to page 18).

Cage said that in that situation it doesn't make sense for the character to throw the pillow around. Don't forget, you're not controlling yourself in the game, but you're controlling a character. So you're only allowed to do things that fit the personality.
It's like in any other adventure. I mean in Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis there was certainly no lack of interactivity. The three paths feature makes it also a bit more comparable to Heavy Rain. And while you could solve situations in many different ways you couldn't let Indy wear women's clothes to disguise himself and go around unnoticed, for example.

5. The lack of any real information. He hasn't explained what the game actually is leaving us to read between the lines and assume either point and click adventure minus the point and click or interactive movie with a bit more character movement (or just possibly Myst).

The game will be released in 2010. Don't you think it's a bit early for this?

"Cage said that in that situation it doesn't make sense for the character to throw the pillow around. Don't forget, you're not controlling yourself in the game, but you're controlling a character. So you're only allowed to do things that fit the personality."

My life. That is about the wooliest, waffliest, most pretentious excuse I think I've ever heard for lack of freedom and choice.

The correct answer is of course "its a piece of computer software, and as such it can't accomodate a truly open choice structure", but instead he comes out with feeble nonsense about it not being fitting to the personality of the character in the video game, as if to suggest that his game COULD give you endless choice and freedom but that it would be in poor taste to do so. Nothing but nothing but ridiculous.


"It's like in any other adventure. I mean in Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis there was certainly no lack of interactivity. The three paths feature makes it also a bit more comparable to Heavy Rain."

Exactly. Not that different really, once we wipe off all of the pretentious nonsense such as that above, to any of the classic video game adventures of the last 20 years (only not as good). Exactly what I have been saying since the start.

only not as good? Or am I misreading you there, putting a label on an unreleased title.

Ok, that was slightly cheap, but as has been mention before expectation of Heavy Rain is being based on previous titles such as Fahrenheit.

Of course I cannot KNOW what Heavy Rain will be like, but given how much control DG has over the production and design, and given how much control he had over the production and design of Fahrenheit, and given how much hype and how little proper information there is about Heavy Rain, and given how much hype and how little proper information there was about Fahrenheit before its release, and given how Fahrenheit ended up being disappointing in several ways..... I think I am allowed to make a leap of faith or two.

I would LOVE to be wrong, as I would love HR to be good so I could enjoy playing. I said exactly the same thing before Fahrenheit came out, as my spidey sense was tingling then too. It was right last time though, and DG isn't giving me anything else to go on.

New game title : "Condemned : by EG comments". lol

Anyway, QD's still working hard on a final control setup ; trying NOT to get into your dreaded QTE type of gameplay. Read about it here ;

- http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?pager....

Ppl screaming 100% interactivity in any way they please = approaching GTA sandbox concept. Don't forget this is an adventure game, submerging you into a story. If you look at the public presentation you can clearly see that you can basically interact with
all that matters in context of the scene ; you can even have the character sit down on the sofa ; scrub to 10:55 mins :

- http://www.gamekyo.com/videoen13496_heav...

I think there's not really "arrogance" from QD's / DC's side. The man's just very animated and in creative-spirit about his game.
A lot of people just want to see it fail, merely because it's a PS3 game. Just wait 'n see and maybe you'll be happily surprised.

* about the amount of game info : developer/publisher Ubisoft is even more secretive & vague about Splinter Cell Conviction ;
based on their 'once' proud SC franchise.

Fair enough, I guess we'll see on delivery with this one.