Heavy Rain

By Tom Bramwell Published 28 October, 2009

The Origami Killer app?

For a game closeted in so much mystery and intrigue, Quantic Dream has been surprisingly forthcoming about how Heavy Rain works and what it's about. We know that it sees four playable characters - FBI profiler Norman Jayden, private detective Scott Shelby, architect Ethan Mars and journalist Madison Paige - on the trail of The Origami Killer. We know that Ethan's son, Shaun, is kidnapped part way through the game and that, according to the Killer's MO, the player has four days to save him before he turns up drowned on a stretch of wasteland.

But it's still hard to predict exactly how the French developer will proceed, not least because its games - notably Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy - tend to encourage experimentation and present alternative outcomes based on your decisions, but mostly because each section of Heavy Rain that we get to play evades easy classification. Were you to show us the four levels that we've seen so far without the on-screen prompts for input that help guide the player's behaviour, you could probably convince us we were seeing four different but technologically similar games.

The Eurogamer Expo demo highlights the difference by showcasing a pair of scenarios. The first we've already covered in depth - it's Norman Jayden's run-in with Mad Jack. The other was at gamescom in August, but we spoke at greater length about Ethan Mars's night in with his son, so it bears more consideration. It sees Scott Shelby visiting a convenience store to question its owner, Hassan, whose son Reza was one of the Origami Killer's earlier victims.

'Heavy Rain' Screenshot 1

Quantic Dream's use of multiple camera angles goes beyond gloss - at times it's a vital gameplay feature.

Shelby is another of Quantic Dream's unlikely heroes - a portly forty or fifty-something private detective with a mild, avuncular manner - and Heavy Rain's unusual conversation system invites you to gently quiz Hassan by selecting from interrogation angles that literally swirl around Shelby's head. As the owner refuses to speak about his son, one can decide to sympathise, reveal that Ethan's son is in imminent danger, press forward less elegantly or even leave the store. Across a few playthroughs it becomes clear that there is one outcome - Shelby gets nothing out of the man, but before he can leave he asks if he sells asthma inhalers, and retires to the back of the store to find one.

Once you get to the back of the shop and locate the inhaler, the door jangles and a restless young man enters. He paces around before Hassan inquires whether he is after anything specific. He is - the contents of the cash register. Just as Hassan stubbornly refused to help you with your inquiries, however, so he proves reluctant to fork over his takings, even as the antsy robber waves a gun in his face.

Shelby, meanwhile, creeps around the aisles at your behest. Heavy Rain's movement controls are less obvious in promotional videos that mainly focus on one path of action through a scene, and inevitably stress the on-screen interaction prompts instead, but you're in control throughout, using the left analogue stick to turn Shelby's head and holding the R2 button to move him forward.

As you creep, prompts allow you to reach for items on the shelves - a glass bottle, for instance, and a cereal box that starts to tumble as you brush past. Whether you can avoid creating the ruckus that attracts the thief's attention, I don't know - I didn't manage it in four attempts - but it's an interesting possibility. Shelby appears to be unarmed.

He's not a bad talker though, as he demonstrates when the robber confronts him and the speech prompts start swirling again, this time bobbing up and down in nervous agitation. Shelby can reason with the robber, and eventually get into an altercation and subdue him with a few well-timed button responses. He can even goad him into taking a shot by refusing to put his hands up.

The camerawork here - as with the other demos - utilises split-screen techniques and builds suspense by refusing to answer urgent questions until it's ready: the bullet grazes Shelby's shoulder, but you won't be shown this until the robber has panicked and fled the store, leaving you to suspect you've failed. Quantic Dream's David Cage has previously said that there will be no "game over" in Heavy Rain, but it takes some believing, and we still wouldn't put it past him to let one of the playable characters die in a situation like this.

'Heavy Rain' Screenshot 2

Hassan proves just as stubborn with a gun-wielding thief as he does with Shelby's inquiries about his son.

Whether Shelby takes the robber out or takes a bullet from him, the scene concludes with the shop owner thanking him and sharing a detail about the Origami Killer. As with the earlier conversation that sent Shelby to the back of the store, there's one way for this to end, and by replaying the scene you expose the heavy hand of the machinery driving you there. Then again, you would be unlikely to replay the scene this way in normal gameplay, and it stresses the ease with which the developer suggests deviation without actually having to offer it. Other scenes will certainly allow for fuller deviation - this one happens not to, but you wouldn't know it. It's rather elegant, and being able to identify the seams by going over a scene a few times actually enhances your appreciation of how effortlessly they're concealed.

If you get a chance to try the demo more than once at the Expo this week, then, it's well worth doing so. Sony may be just as excited about shooting monsters in the face in post-apocalyptic American cities as the next publisher, but it's hard not to admire the company's faith in developers like Quantic Dream when you witness their work first-hand. As Sony's Shuhei Yoshida pointed out when we raised the subject of Heavy Rain's commercial prospects a few months ago, "sometimes the most creative products give the biggest financial success". Whether or not it turns out to be the case for Quantic Dream's latest, that enduring optimism is a feather in the PlayStation's cap.

Heavy Rain is due out exclusively for PlayStation 3 in 2010.

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

You may also like...

Comments (102) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • George-Roper #1 2 years ago

    I hate QTEs

  • Kill_Crazy #2 2 years ago

    I like innovative games.

  • MeBrains #3 2 years ago

    I don't know about this one...

  • Goodfella #4 2 years ago

    @ Roper

    Who gives a f**k what you think.

    I will be purchasing this game for sure.

  • madjim #5 2 years ago

    I want this. Now.

  • Blerk #6 2 years ago

    It's really not 'traditional' QTEs, there's no 'press this button sequence exactly as presented or you're dead'. More often than not there's a sort of 'floating cloud' of potential options and you select from them to decide what your character will do, each leading to a slightly different outcome. I played through a couple of scenarios on the demo yesterday and it's certainly interesting, although I can't imagine it having a very wide appeal - it's very slow-paced and super-heavy on the dialogue. Graphically it's gorgeous in a lot of places but 'kind of weird' in others, and the movement controls are very odd and take some getting used to. Quite unlike anything else at the show, though and worth a look just for that.

  • Zebula77 #7 2 years ago

    You know, I think this game will be important whether it's a success or not, simply on the strength of being different and innovative. I think the concept and the gaming ideas here are pretty fresh, and could potentially lead other developers to experiment more, to push video games in new directions.

    I think the industry needs this right now.

  • muttler #8 2 years ago

    Really looking forward to playing this at the London show. PS3 is where it's at this year and next!

  • Goodfella #9 2 years ago

    @donnie

    You seem incapable of understanding how business works so I'll try and explain it in very simple terms, just for you.

    You say you "just dont understand why its been given a budget by sony", well lets just imagine for one moment that every game released on the 360 was Halo or Gears related, how f**king shit would that be?

    Game's don't have to be big massive sellers to be profitable and there is a large amount of people out there who would prefer to play a game that doesn't involve mindless shooting, etc. You have to try and cover all your fanbase, not just the fans of Halo and Fifa, and so on.

  • ybfelix #10 2 years ago

    Fahrenheit's last 1/3(in implied story, 1/6 in actual gameplay length) left a bad taste. But even the first half feel like a japanese Visual Novel game which to me, an asian, is not particularly new thus not as interesting as reviews made people to believe.

    From what has revealed about Heavy Rain I didn't see much departure from Fahrenheit's fomula, but all in all the actual story quality is most important when talking about the visual novel genre. Hope by clinging to Sony they have enough budget this tiime.
    Edited by 1 at 28/10/09 @ 08:59

  • frankfurter209 #11 2 years ago

    Still seems too art-gamey and pretentious. Even if you hated the plot and tone of Braid, the gameplay was brilliant by itself. I don't see QTE's pulling the same weight here.

  • Widge #12 2 years ago

    HALF LIFE 2 DOES NOT HAVE A GOOD STORY. IT HAS NO STORY.

  • UncleLou #13 2 years ago

    BUT its similar to the way a lot of people like obscure music, to say their different(interlectual?) and that others dont understand and are just sheep

    Nope, you got that wrong. Most people are sheep. And some of the sheep realise it deep down, and then use big words like "pretentious" for everything they don't understand, and react predictably just like you did. Sheep like you are boring.

  • Goodfella #14 2 years ago

    @ donnie

    Until you've played both Heavy Rain and Alan Wake please shut the f**k up and try to keep your future predictions to yourself.

  • Widge #15 2 years ago

    Alan Wake has as much in common with this as Oblivion has with Wet.

  • Kill_Crazy #16 2 years ago

    @donnie

    Remaking Monkey Island is definitely not innovation, that we agree on. Making a new game, albeit a kind of sequel, and trying something new is innovative (or at least trying to be). If no one ever tried something new because it wasn't thought to be a good idea then it would be a much blander world. If you don't like the concept of this game or didn't like Fahrenheit then that's your choice but don't just trash something that you haven't played through and that doesn't interest you.

  • ybfelix #17 2 years ago

    I agree that Half Life's story in itself is not THAT wonderful. Its strong points are in the execution of set pieces, which are revolutionary of its time.

  • Widge #18 2 years ago

    HalfLife 2 -> amazing opening, great teasers of epic plot. Remainder of games plot -> run in A to B lines to checkpoints where people point you in a tangent to which way you were running and say "That way Mr Freeman!". That is it.
    Maybe it did some more at the end of the game, I have no idea, I abandoned it around the time I was able to summon antlions with a pokeball. No plot up until that point. Hours in. If I wanted to run around and just nail enemies using the Source engine I quickly realised it was a whole lot more satisfying to hit multiplayer games and pit myself against something that wasn't an AI.

    But I suppose I agree with donnie, Heavy Rain should play like an FPS where you shoot people in the face, we're in a phase in gaming where we are finally rid of the scourge of adventure games.

  • Verminox #19 2 years ago

    Finally a game which is different from the hundreds of shoot 'em ups and FPS. So what if your not going round guns blazing all the time, and you're not in the action all the time, instead you can sit back and play the story how you want it to turn out.

  • GAmbrose #20 2 years ago

    Well it does have a story Widge, you just happen to be experiencing it entirely from the first person, without cutting to any other characters or scenes that would help put it in to context as pretty much every film ever made. I'm not going to defend it too much as it's hardly a masterpiece in storytelling (I remember completing it and having to check online to clarify what was actually going on)

    Bioshock did a better job of it, but that was a different setting. You were coming in to a society that had already torn itself apart, so they could use the audio logs story telling device. In Half-Life 2 you are the progenitor of an uprising and in the middle of a mini-war, so to speak.

    Anyway, I am looking foward to Heavy Rain. I really enjoyed Fahrenheit until it went off the rails with the matrix esque sections toward the end.

  • Widge #21 2 years ago

    Yeah, HL2 played well, the set pieces were good. But I need more, I had no motivation to play or feel a part of the story when all that happens is an A to B dash. Thats why I liked Bioshock more as a SP experience.

    Oh HL2 does have a story. Reading the timeline on wiki makes it sound amazing, but it just doesn't demonstrate it in game for me.
    Edited by 1 at 28/10/09 @ 09:11

  • Goodfella #22 2 years ago

    @ Verminox

    Absolutely, not only that but why do people like donnie have a problem with it. It's pure selfishness basically, like they want every game made to cater to their tastes and forget that other people might want to play something different.

    @ donnie

    If you're not interested in Heavy Rain stay the f**k out of the comments section with your comparitive predictions about how good Alan Wake will be. It's not compulsory to post anti PS3 game bollocks day in, day out. There are still other games that I'm sure you can enjoy so go read about them or play them.

  • Goodfella #23 2 years ago

    "QTE are the most maligned and unpopular part of the gaming medium today"

    Says who, you and a few other people here just because YOU don't like them?

    Hahahahhahahhaaa hahahahaah!

    /sigh

  • Everblue #24 2 years ago

    What's wrong with some people? If you like this game, by all means support Sony and buy it. If you don't go back to whatever FPS you are playing and let other people enjoy Heavy Rain.

  • Widge #25 2 years ago

    HL2 and Bioshock are FPS games. They do not relate. How are you relating in your logic? Can you not see this point?
    Its like berating the driving in Brutal Legend for not being up to the standard of Forza or that tackling enemies in Super Mario doesn't quite have the sophistication of combat that Street Fighter 4 has.
    You DO know this is an adventure game and absolutely could not have the structure of Bioshock or HalfLife 2.

  • interspaced #26 2 years ago

    You do not speak for me Donnie

  • Widge #27 2 years ago

    Yeah but Dead Space, I know lets compare that to Eve because thats a space game isn't it?

  • Everblue #28 2 years ago

    @Widge

    And Elite :)

  • Goodfella #29 2 years ago

    You've played Heavy Rain then, donnie?

    Thought not. Are you trying to convince us that the game is crap or are you just trying to convince yourself?

  • bad09 #30 2 years ago

    You sound quite young Donnie TBH so probably don't realise that Shenmue, regarded as one of the best games ever, was loaded with QTEs.......

    Anyway loving Fahrenheit (not finished it yet) and the more I see of HR the more interested I am. So many games to try on Friday I won't have time for them all!!!

    Edited by 1 at 28/10/09 @ 09:41

  • bad09 #31 2 years ago

    @ djronz

    31.....Wow.....

  • El-Dev #32 2 years ago

    "higher interlect"

    Too easy.

    "when its clear it will not be a sales sucess(which is all that matters to them)"

    No donnie, you're the only one who bangs on about sales figures ALL OF THE TIME. It seems you can't enjoy a game unless millions of people buy it, shame really. Would you say ICO was a failure of a game, I think it sold approx 700k and is regarded as one of the greatest games on the PS2 which had an install base of over 100m when that game was released.

  • andywilkie35 #33 2 years ago

    I want this. Fahrenheit is still one of my all time favourites and this just looks incredible.

  • M_of_the_sys #34 2 years ago

    @Donnie

    "If you want an excellent story watch a decent movie or read a book,you can even press stop and start on the remote and pretend you have choices"

    I like a good story and I like games. I do happen to watch movies and read books but who are you to tell me I can't have an excellent story in a game? I love the LoK series and Final Fantasy games (to name a few) for their stories.
    It's not a surprise to see you trolling a PS3 thread but can you at least stop talking crap and clutching at straws.
    I like the look of Heavy Rain and I really like the idea of getting involved in the story. I loved Fahrenheit and the choices it gave you. Even if this is a HD Monkey Island, what's wrong with that? I love the Monkey Island series too.

  • Fletche #35 2 years ago

    Hmm shame this has turned into a Donnie comments thread, he is hungry for attention and he keeps being fed (I have him on ignore, saves me getting pissed off with him)

    Anyway, Heavy Rain, looks great and hopefully will be something different, something that will gently move gaming forward as a serious entertainment platform. We need diversity, we need games that challenge and go against what is considered the "norm" otherwise we are just going to be stuck in an ever decreasing circle of mediocrity and repetition.

  • M_of_the_sys #36 2 years ago

    @djronz

    Also likens himself to Nelson Mandella and used to be a soldier so don't mess with him!!

  • Lee_Morris #37 2 years ago

    The 2 games at the show that my non hardcore (not casual) gamer friend said she would buy when she gets a PS3 are this and Saw!

    I saw the car graveyard bit and it just really stood out from everything else I saw at the show. There were sections where the detective was walking around and examinging things, along with all the 'QTE' sections. So hopefully it can keep a good pace if it is throwing sections like that in there.

  • M_of_the_sys #38 2 years ago

    I don't like the idea that you do different things for the same outcome though. Did I read that wrong?

  • Fletche #39 2 years ago

    @M_of_the_sys

    I wondered about that, according to the article in Games magazine this isn't the case, there are different outcomes depending on your actions and the section they were testing was the same one mention in this article.

  • Beek4257 #40 2 years ago

    (Can we please stop mentioning Donnie and get on with the stuff that matters? Besides Half Life 2 is like 5 years old, which is about 10 human years ;-) Let it go already)

    I agree with Nebula that this game will probably be important for the industry in moving it forward and (therefore so is Fahrenheit in retrospect, even though I thought it to be somewhat broken). I applaud QD for at least trying, because I don't think all David Cage has said so far, is just marketing fluff.

    Something to look forward to IMHO.
    Edited by 1 at 28/10/09 @ 10:29

  • creepylizard #41 2 years ago

    @goodfella
    I'll wash your mouth out with soap, young man

  • schnide #42 2 years ago

    Mark me down all you like - Donnie talks sense sometimes. No, not all of the time - do you?

    And no you don't. Heavy Rain is a controversial title because it's promising to deliver the missing link between interactivity and storytelling, which for me are mutually exclusive. I think this is an expensive, pretentious vanity project by David Cage and I want to see this fail so that more money can be spent on promoting truly groundbreaking games like ICO.

  • Bezzy #43 2 years ago

    I have a big problem with QTEs.

    However...

    I can totally accept that there needs to be more variety in AAA games. I think Heavy Rain may do very well in that it's essentially "disruptive" in the same way that the Wii was: Fairly shallow gaming experiences when compared to things like Deus Ex, but very accessible*.

    Everyone posting here is almost certainly gaming-literate. Very often we have a real myopia when it comes to acknowledging that most games require a serious amount of gaming-literacy to access in the first place, which a vast amount of people lost, or never started to develop. We're like concert pianists complaining when a piano noob can't play a midnight sonata. With its push for story at the exclusion of deep interactivity, Heavy Rain is a comfortable stepping stone for people not used to the medium.

    I think that Heavy Rain's main "sin" in this respect is to misrepresent to newcomers what the interactive medium does best. We already know that interactive cutscenes are a game design wasteland. There were plenty of games in the 90's which proved that. Even recently, there have been failures with "non interesting interactivity" while being locked in a room while an NPC talks at you. These things do nothing to to engage players with what we know games are particularly great at. They're so close to passive entertainment (and yet worse orchastrated than passive entertainment due to the frustrating false interactive possibilities given to the player) that newcomers are going to shrug off the ability to jump around like a loon while a movie plays in the background as a novelty.

    What we need are games which are as straightforward and accessible as Heavy Rain without sacrificing depth and player expression, in order to engage newcomers for more time than it takes to dismiss them as culturally insignificant. Of course, that's not as easy as it sounds.

    *I don't believe that depth is mutually exclusive to accessibility... Just very hard to get working hand in hand.

  • TruWari3r #44 2 years ago

    I actually agree a little with Roper.

    I will be getting this game on day one and am very intrigued by all the story arc possibilities

    BUT I am a bit worried about the pacing seeing all the qte's in the game

  • Bezzy #45 2 years ago

    I also don't believe that gameplay and storytelling are mutually exclusive, but that the compatable form of storytelling in games is very different to conventional narrative in film and literature, which have been held up as false benchmarks for the medium.

    It's possible to have narrative in painting, in dance, in poetry, but people don't complain about a lack of pacing, dolly shots, etc. When the medium matures more, I think more people will accept the interactive narrative form on its own terms, rather than grading it on its ability to be "like a movie".

  • Verminox #46 2 years ago

    The different outcomes in the shop scene.

    [link url=http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=BJ_A2Tpz2UM
    ]http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=BJ_A2Tpz2UM
    [/link]

    [link url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q_9fKLKh3M&feature=rel ated
    ]http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q_9fKLKh...[/link]

    http://ww w.vg247.com/2009/10/27/eg-expo-...

  • AliRay #47 2 years ago

    I'm pretty sure this may prove popular here with EG-ers and with the gaming press, but I can't see it selling too well....

  • Goodfella #48 2 years ago

    "serious question donnie. what sort of games do you like?"

    Ones that sell loads, apparently.

  • Widge #49 2 years ago

    lol @ groundbreaking titles like Ico. Didn't that sell like SHITE on release? I'm sure it wasn't until it went out of print and people started saying "YOU BIG FUCKWITS" that it became highly desirable.

  • Benyboyuk #50 2 years ago

    I want this game so bad that it actually hurts!

    I love Farenheit with a passion, I found the story both interesting and absorbing and the way that the narative was told from different protagonists made the story all the more engaging.

    I may be in the minority but I feel that in an age filled with the likes of your Halo's and Cod's, which are equally good in their own right, I really enjoy the change of pace that a game like Farenheit/Heavy Rain offers. They provide the chance to sit back and immerse yourself in a well written story driven experience.

  • Goodfella #51 2 years ago

    @ Widge

    Yeah cause we all know games that sell loads must be brilliant and games that don't must be 'shite'.

    Pillock.

  • Goodfella #52 2 years ago

    So just shooters and racers then. Why am I not surprised that you're a gaming philistine.

  • Boomerang #53 2 years ago

    Wow, i'm really glad i came hereso i could read the comments on this article and didn't get a wall of bitching and childish fighting.

    Get a room.

    0_o

  • Edwin #54 2 years ago

    remember

    'please do not feed the monkeys'

  • kdoggdayton #55 2 years ago

    My xbox blew up and killed my family. I don't like it anymore.

  • coomber #56 2 years ago

    I'd love to read this article and learn more about this game but, as it seems to be one giant spoiler, I'll give it a miss, thanks.

  • schnide #57 2 years ago

    I really wish I hadn't defended a man who said that ICO was boring, but my points overall still stand.

    Interactivity and storyteling are mutually exclusive. A good game ties the two seamlessly. Heavy Rain is trying to overlap the two, and I say that's impossible and so it bloody well should be.

  • BillMurray #58 2 years ago

    Played this yesterday and quite liked it. Using the shoulder buttons to walk is fucking weird though.

  • M_of_the_sys #59 2 years ago

    @schnide

    That's your personal feeling to this. It doesn't mean it's impossible. I personally like the feeling of controlling the story.

  • Ace_McCloud #60 2 years ago

    Farenheit was a really interesting concept that suffered from being ahead of its time. The story and the hardware just didn't match the vision. In the end, the game sucked a big one!

    This has loads of potential, but the amount of work that needed to be done on Farenheit has me sceptical to see whether they can pull ot off here. Still credit to them for thinking outside the box.

  • schnide #61 2 years ago

    @M_of_the_sys

    Personal feeling has nothing to do with it, it's a pretty strong theory and I'd like to debate it to be convinced otherwise. A story is by default linear to take you on a pre-defined journey, taking in specific emotional highs and lows.

    The more interactivity you're given, the more variation you have - even assuming that the game can cater for that many meaningful variations. That waters down the emotional impact, allowing for too many variations which are either meaningless, boring or both.

    By the way, are you looking forward to the mini-game where you cut up a pizza for your son? Or maybe you'll somehow bypass that branch of the game, missing out on such a high point for videogaming.

  • freakzilla #62 2 years ago

    I'm happy for and all but what's new here? I don't see anything that's not already been shown a few months earlier.

  • M_of_the_sys #63 2 years ago

    @schnide

    I personally believe you can have both. Is this not an element of Role Playing where you control the story through interactive actions?

    When you suggest that it waters down the emotional impact, that's you speaking for yourself. I, on the other hand, might feel more emotionally tied to the story as I may feel I've created it to a certain extent.

    I'm not suggesting that silly little mini-games will add to emotional ties to the story (unless he doesn't eat the pizza after I went to all the effort to cut it up for him!!) but being able to choose the path you take as a result to actions you have chosen will certainly have some impact.
    Edited by 2 at 28/10/09 @ 13:01

  • MeBrains #64 2 years ago

    Donnie: uncharted2,op flashpoint2,rainbow6,l4d,dirt2,gta4 BOGT/L+D

    ok, so a good game, an FPS, a TPS, a TPS, a race game and GTA-forgot the sequel number which scored well I presume. That is great for you. You are entitled to your own personal favorites. But, while they may have been great great games, they are all sticking to tried and tested formulas. Formulas people enjoy, no wonder they sell heaps (Halo anyone?). Ico, SotC, TLG, Okami, Heavy Rain do NOT stick to tried and tested formulas, so they do not sell heaps. BUT they do innovate and create universes which are unique to gaming. Even though their sales will forever be far far below these of games like Halo, their importance to gaming should never be taken lightly. I dread the day publishers will stop investing money in games like this. And we almost were there a few years ago.

    BTW. I bought Ico, as well as SotC and Okami the day they came out. All games I happily shelled out for - full price ~ €60. U2 would have been another and TLG will be. "All" other games _to me at least_ are not worth it and I happily wait for them to arrive bargained.
    Edited by 1 at 28/10/09 @ 13:10

  • Fletche #65 2 years ago

    Not sure why you can't have an interactive story, I think we now have the tech to allow developers to do this but it would take some talent in the writers to make sure that whatever choice you take creates a story branch that is as exciting or emotionally evocative as the others.

    Yes you would have to have finite endings, that's understandable, but that doesn't mean you can't have a multitude of different ways of getting to them, each way creating a different emotional response. To me this is like the old Fighting Fantasy books multiplied by a million, but it is the same concept at a basic level.

    And whoever said Ico was boring is a freak!

  • makeamazing #66 2 years ago

    I think its stupid of people to say this game is rubbish when its not even out or having played it. Same with Alan Wake... no one has played it. Of course its fine to say you dont like this type of game or concept, say that and move on...Who knows if either game is any good... we will have to wait and see. Alan Wake looks too much like Alone in the Dark from what I have seen, but they could make something amazing. Who knows... not me as i havent played it :).

    BUT... I for one applaud Sony for trying different games and concepts, sure some will not appeal to me and some will not be massive hits... but you know what, at least they are trying something different to the usual 3rd party games we can already get in abundance. Will i like Heavy Rain, I have no idea.. but I will buy it because i do like story driven games, perhaps it will be pap, but i will buy it and see. Certainly wont let Sony haters tell me what i can or cant buy, or what i will or wont like.

    From a commercial prospect, people (a couple, you know who you are)... think that 1st Party games should just be Racing or FPS, why cover those when you can do that AND do something different. You know what is going to sell machines, have a wide range of games that do not just cover FPS and Racing. Perhaps some who are slating Sony forget about Avatars, Lips and Natal approach from MS. Its about trying to cover a wide range of bases to sell to more users.

  • TopKatt #67 2 years ago

    @M_of_the_sys

    "I like a good story and I like games."

    But which is best? There's only one way to find out. FIGHT!!!!

  • schnide #68 2 years ago

    @M_of_the_sys

    I personally believe you can have both. Is this not an element of Role Playing where you control the story through interactive actions?

    FF7. Could you have chosen any better (in terms of overall emotional impact, and thus I would argue, story) plot twist than Aeris dying? Like that individually or not, that game is one of the first things that comes to my mind in terms of the story that a good game can offer. You don't choose what happens - you're given the illusion that you do, but all you're really doing is following it and getting to successive points where it unfolds further.

    What Heavy Rain needs to do is convince you fully that you're responsible for everything that happens along the way, even if you're not. And if you are, then every plot twist you produce has to be a tenth as interesting as Aeris dying - or it'll be just as boring as cutting up a pizza.

  • Postumo #69 2 years ago

    I liked Fahrenheit, but i don't see the replay value in this one as i didn't see it on Fahrenheit. Ok, the scenes can go on different directions based on your decisions, but the result is similar. Maybe the game has a few different endings. I always end up watching them on youtube.

    The game looks great, but, as someone said before, it shows no physics, your control over the character is very limited and that doesn't stress the engine too much. It can't compete with other games like uncharted, GOW, Mass Effect, etc. In those game you have total control, you interact with the scenario, you modify it, there are physics all around... Fahrenheit also looked great, but nobody said it was TOP Tech.

  • M_of_the_sys #70 2 years ago

    @schnide

    "What Heavy Rain needs to do is convince you fully that you're responsible for everything that happens along the way, even if you're not. And if you are, then every plot twist you produce has to be a tenth as interesting as Aeris dying - or it'll be just as boring as cutting up a pizza."

    I agree but you're saying this is impossible are you not?

  • infinitecontinues #71 2 years ago

    I'm really hoping this one lives up to my expectations of it. Hopefully will have the same impact as a videogame as Se7en did as a film - bleak and depressing, but seriously awesome.

    As long as it sorts out the frankly awful control system that Fahrenheit had. Would prefer not to be walking into walls for half the time ;)
    Edited by 1 at 28/10/09 @ 14:08

  • schnide #72 2 years ago

    @M_of_the_sys

    Essentially, yes I'm saying it's impossible. That, or David Cage has suddenly become one of the world's greatest writers who has found the perfect basis for a story which has so many different outcomes at every meaningful point that no variation you choose (or play, or write, or whatever the hell he'd call it) can possibly make it anything other than a dull or incongruent experience.

  • paulf #73 2 years ago

    I really want this game to be very very good

  • old_skool #74 2 years ago

    Heavy Rain isn't just trying to tell a story, but trying to do something that isn't well implemented in any other games, make you think that your actions affect the story, make you part of the story.

    The only game to my mind that comes close is maybe Knights of the Old Republic.

  • mukki #75 2 years ago

    I played Fahrenheit Indigo Prophecy to end which was somewhat anticlimactic
    and yes I think QTE suck too... but they seem to be trying a different approach with this one

    and far a branching story line
    I hope that this doesn"t turn in a very pretty looking 3D Choose Your Own Adventure book...
    and let us hope the narrative is not like silence of lams meets silent hill...

    I want games that tell good stories dammit!

  • schnide #76 2 years ago

    @donnie's latest comment

    Your spelling and grammar are suspect, but your argument is fair.

    Edit: Damn you, EvilBob
    Edited by 2 at 28/10/09 @ 16:34

  • mukki #77 2 years ago

    @Bezzy well said! agree 100%

  • EvilBob_leeds #78 2 years ago

    @Schnide

    That's suspect, not circumspect. Circumspect means this. There's nothing about Donnie that could be described as "prudent".

    And his point is rubbish. Just because there where a glut of rubbish FMV loaded games on the back of CD-ROMs doesn't mean a) That they were all rubbish (Conspiracy springs to mind, as do the FMV Zorks) b) That things might not have moved on since then or c) That this game is devoid of new ideas. On the contrary, Farenheit effectively proved that this studio have no shortage of good ideas.
    Edited by 1 at 28/10/09 @ 16:27

  • schnide #79 2 years ago

    You're right about circumspect EvilBob - heeded and corrected. I have learnt something today.

    I don't think Donnie was blaming the medium of FMV, but the idea that by streaming some elements of interactivity into a story you could produce something more worthy than what we have already. I'm up for new mediums and exploration in gameplay, but this isn't the direction it can or needs to go in.

    Beyond the fad of the Choose Your Own Adventure and Fighting Fantasy games, when has anyone thought about letting you have a say in what happens in a book or a film in any real way? And when did anyone suggest we needed a backstory to a game of Pong?

    I'm not suggesting there's no room for gameplay and story in games - of course there is, and there are different types of games. But both cannot happen at the same time.

    And even though Cage is right to say we need more maturity in gaming, he certainly isn't the man to present it. As another poster put it several months ago, all the lead characters in this game have names like they're in Universal Soldier.
    Edited by 1 at 28/10/09 @ 16:41

  • Rodchenko #80 2 years ago

    schnide, not sure why you are so hung up on the mutual exclusion of storytelling and interactivity. Those are structural choices of (re)presentation in the first place, which have little relevance to the actual quality of the content told and you'd have to define what you would still consider storytelling as opposed to what you don't consider storytelling anymore. I could say, that the history of weblinks I visited during a day is telling a story, even though much randomness and side-stepping is involved, and maybe it's a much more interesting story than that of the dull book I finished last night even though it contained some interactivity and user-choice.

    Now, when you look at a movie like 'Amores Perros', you have 4 different storylines which develop parallely and culminate in one shared incident (a car accident). All HR does (as an analogy), is to make you decide for one of these storylines. There will still be a car accident at the end, but the way each player reaches it, will be (slightly) different based on their actions and decisions at certain waypoints. There is also no 'missing out' on something because all other storylines collapse and are (by concept) no longer accessible to you the moment you decide to go down one particular route . Of course, you could save and go back and see whether at the waypoint you decided to slice a pizza for your son (because that's too dull for you) you could have had more bang for the buck instead. But that's not the way the game is designed (at least in my understanding).

    Cage actually said, he'd like everyone to play through the game only once, so that everyone has only one individual story. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' way of playing it, and (again, by concept) there is no better or worse storyline among all the potentialities. Don't really see, why this -- a very common concept in literature and the movies - is generating so much cynicism from your side, expecially since I think it lends itself perfectly to interactive media (which, as an output, still produces a linear story in the end).

    That this, or something similar, has been tried before, is another discussion. But by that measure we could pretty much toss every modern day computer game into the bin.


  • El-Dev #81 2 years ago

    Well said Rodchenko, but if you showed some of the posters Amores Perros they'd say nothing happened except the car crash.
    Edited by 1 at 28/10/09 @ 17:43

  • George-Roper #82 2 years ago

    "6/10. Whilst the storytelling is good, QTEs continually serve to draw the player out of the game world rather than help enforce their presence inside it."

    Called it. Watch this space.

  • schnide #83 2 years ago

    Perhaps I'm so 'hung up' on the issue because they're mutually exclusive. Storytelling - note the 'telling' - is linear. It has to be. In order for any one story to reach it's maximum potential, it must be finely tuned so that all plot points are relevant to each other and crescendo in a natural conclusion.

    The more interactivity you have, the more you unravel the connections between these plot points. For what you're suggesting to work, Cage needs to be not only a good writer (in my opinion, he isn't, and if you're film literate enough to be citing Amores Perros I'm surprised you would be either) but an astoundingly good writer.

    He needs to be able to write not only Seven as you saw it, but also a version of Seven where Freeman and Pitt don't uncover Spacey's character using a library card but still have pacing as good as when they do and later in the story. He also needs a version where you don't decide to follow Spacey out into the wasteland but instead just shoot him in the police station, and somehow still have as much climactic impact as when you'd otherwise find Paltrow's head in a box.

    That's only two major plot variations, and takes an incredible amount of fine tuning to the point where you'll potentially end up with a completely different story, both of which have to be as good as each other if you're not just going to be better off watching Seven as a film in the first place. If you are, what's the point of Heavy Rain?

    If you're not, then you're going to have to have a lot of interactivity where in fact you can only have one outcome despite all the promises otherwise the plot points will spiral out even more wildly. And that means you won't really have control over the story. Or you're going to have lots of interactivity over things that really don't affect the story - like how fast you cut up that pizza.

    Are you getting any of this yet?

  • schnide #84 2 years ago

    Oh and by the way - would Amores Perros have been a better experience if you'd only been able to see one of the storylines, you got to choose which dog Bernal fought with and you didn't even know the other storylines ever existed?

  • Collymilad #85 2 years ago

    "@ Roper

    Who gives a f**k what you think.

    I will be purchasing this game for sure."

    And so who gives a f**k what you think? What a c***

  • Gecks #86 2 years ago

    a game's plot becomes compelling when it embraces the medium, not those that shoe-horn in something that would be better served by a film or book. would romeo and juliet still be good with a thumb-biting QTE?

    Ico has a plot you could summarise on a postage stamp, but it remains one of the finest fairytales I've experienced thanks to the relationship the characters potray thanks to the players actions. Yorda is initially a walking keycard, initially...

    Not sure about heavy rain.
    Edited by 2 at 29/10/09 @ 15:12

  • M_of_the_sys #87 2 years ago

    ^^
    What a surprise.

  • Aname #88 2 years ago

    Schnide I disagree. If storytelling and decision making were truly mutually exclusive how can you explain the Fighting Fantasy/Choose Your Own Adventure fad to which you referred? Or text adventure games? Deus Ex? KOTOR? Or even GTA IV, which allowed the player to make some choices which significantly affected the story? Clearly they cannot be mutually exclusive as examples already exist. I'm not talking here about the quality of story writing in any of these examples, as that is dependant on the author not the format.

    To state that Seven would not work as well as a story if decision making were introduced is beside the point - some books won't work as well as films and vice versa, it doesn't negate either medium as a format.

    You say yourself an astoundingly good writer could be able to pull off what Rodchenko was suggesting (having equally good stories no matter what choices were made) - so I think rather than storytelling and decision making being mutually exclusive as you stated, they might be difficult or problematic to reconcile, but by no means impossible.
    Edited by 7 at 29/10/09 @ 17:48

  • schnide #89 2 years ago

    @Aname

    Fighting Fantasy and text adventure games had a lot of the action taking place in your head. Both were good for their time, but I don't see many people playing them these days and that's because we've all moved significantly on.

    The technology now exists for us to have avatars in realistic and believable settings. That's why we have GTA - and in that, you can turn on a TV and sit that and watch it all day if you want to. But that isn't fun, and it isn't gameplay. GTA's a sandbox game where you can choose to follow the story or do whatever the hell else you like.

    Heavy Rain, in my understanding, allows you to do very little else bar follow (sorry, 'decide') the story. That's unless you look at the minigames or want to pick up and examine realistically modelled cornflake boxes - which in my mind isn't fun but hey if you want that, you go for it.

    Heavy Rain is claiming to offer you an interactive narrative rather than an interactive environment. So for you to have real effect on the story, the game needs to offer a near infinite number of story paths. Given that this just isn't possible, the game in my opinion is doomed to fail as anything other than an illusory QTE curio.

    The only way it will work as a convincing narrative is if there are in fact a very limited number of outcomes which gameplay and pacing have been modelled tightly around. That's fine, and what all good games with a story do, it just isn't what David Cage keeps saying it is.

  • Aname #90 2 years ago

    @Schnide

    "Fighting Fantasy and text adventure games had a lot of the action taking place in your head. Both were good for their time, but I don't see many people playing them these days and that's because we've all moved significantly on. "

    The point I was making was that these examples and the others I listed disprove your idea that story telling and decision making were mutually exclusive. I thought I'd made that clear, but you've chosen to duck those questions. As for the format having moved on, well, whatever, that's again beside the point, at least from your original argument which you seem to have changed from that mutual exclusivity to "I think Heavy Rain will be shite", which is a rather pointless and tedious discussion as the game hasn't been released yet. You may be right, you may be wrong, time will tell.

    I enjoy many different genres of games, some reactions based, such as shooters and racers, some more cerebral such as strategy games or puzzlers.. I would welcome though a sort of modernised, mature take on the Fighting Fantasy/Choose Your Own Adventure format, whereby decision making and choices are the main form of interactivity, something more thoughtful and hopefully much deeper than the sort of interactivity many games currently offer. If that's not for you, fine, I really don't care, but I don't see how that form of interactivity can be seen as in any way inferior to twitch based games.

    In fact I think as Bezzy pointed out before, this sort of interactivity could attract those who might be considered by some as non-gamers, or those who aren't "game literate", who don't like reactions-based twitch gameplay, but might like the idea of decision making, choice based gameplay such as that Heavy Rain is promising.

    "Heavy Rain is claiming to offer you an interactive narrative rather than an interactive environment. So for you to have real effect on the story, the game needs to offer a near infinite number of story paths. Given that this just isn't possible, the game in my opinion is doomed to fail as anything other than an illusory QTE curio."

    Well this is just bizarre. Where do you get the idea that near infinite possibilities must be necessary to have any real effect any the story? Just ONE choice in a narrative could have a huge effect on the story, again I refer you to the choices given in GTA IV. Obviously Heavy Rain is emphasising this aspect as the main point of interactivity and so will feature many more options, but as you refer to Fighting Fantasy/Choose Your Own Adventure you should see easily how a reader or in this case player can have many significant choices to make which radically alter a narrative.

    "Heavy Rain, in my understanding, allows you to do very little else bar follow (sorry, 'decide') the story. " So you are honestly saying you don't see how in any game the player can even conceivably alter a story, even when such examples abound?

    I think rather than any real discussion about the nature of narrative and interactivity you are just trying to put down this game despite not knowing how it will turn out. And that's a debate I really can't be arsed with. Whether Heavy Rain itself delivers on its promises or not, I hope that this is a genre that will succeed.

    Edited by 6 at 30/10/09 @ 20:16

  • man.the.king #91 2 years ago

    @donnie

    "interlectual"

    Interlectual? Ah, I see now why you might not like Heavy Rain.

  • man.the.king #92 2 years ago

    @ djronz and bad09

    "apparently hes 31 (not his mental age though) likens himself to jesus and has the balls to post in internet forums!"

    Not only Jesus! You forgot Nelson Mandela :)

    31.....Wow.....

    Or maybe he is just 13 and dyslexic :)
    Edited by 4 at 30/10/09 @ 23:51

  • schnide #93 2 years ago

    Yes, Aname, you've got me entirely pegged.

    "The point I was making was that these examples and the others I listed disprove your idea that story telling and decision making were mutually exclusive."

    By the way, they don't in the slightest.

    Fighting Fantasy follows very strict linear paths where the only real interaction you have is choosing to turn to one page or another. All the in-between parts take place in your head, at your own pace. There is no need for dramatic pacing in the sense of modern games, books or films.

    And text adventures usually have only one real path, with the gameplay occurring in you figuring out how to go along it, and trying out what words do and don't work. You always follow the same story.

    Heavy Rain wants to give you the whole experience in terms of pacing, dialogue, emotions (!). Only for this to be congruent, it has to be linear. This means real gameplay which doesn't truly affect what happens, but only convinces you that it does. Cage is claiming this isn't linear.

    And if you want to explain just how the choices in GTA make any real difference aside from one or two key points, please do.
    Edited by 1 at 31/10/09 @ 13:00

  • Aname #94 2 years ago

    The fact there were any changes in the story the player experienced at all is the point, that choices could be made and different stories told, no matter how different. The differences could be major or minor, there could be only a few possible paths or many. Let's say for example at the beginning of GTA IV you the player had the choice not to work with Roman, in fact you choose to turn your back on him for his deception in getting you into Liberty City in the first place. Then Rockstar could - if given enough time and resources - have made a very different story path. Do you agree that would be possible? And that further choices then could have been made possible? And that this would result a very different outcome from the original path?

    Also, the reason I chose Fighting Fantasy/Choose Your Own Adventure as an example was your own words:

    "Beyond the fad of the Choose Your Own Adventure and Fighting Fantasy games, when has anyone thought about letting you have a say in what happens in a book or a film in any real way?"

    Though now you seem to be insisting that they were linear and without real choice.
    Edited by 4 at 31/10/09 @ 15:31

  • busboy33 #95 2 years ago

    I watched the three videos of the "different" scenarios that play out in the convenience store, and I'm more worried by this game than ever.

    The "branching paths" remind me of Mass Effect. You can go through different scenes with different responses, and they will result in different conversations/actions, but for the most part the overall scene ends the same. That's fine . . . it adds to replayability, and customizes the story to suit the player.

    BUT . . . all that does is add flavor to the underlying GAME.

    I didn't see any "game" in these videos. It was more of an animated "choose your own adventure" book. Again, that's fine and entertaining . . . but its not a game. Was the "game" in walking (akwardly) to the back of the store? In creeping up on the gunman? Assuming you can actually sneak up on him, the scene doesn't end any differently, does it? Either you get shot at and the storekeeper gives you the clue, you talk the gunman into leaving and the storekeeper gives you the clue, you wrestly with the gunman and knock him out and the storekeeper gives you the clue, or you possibly sneak up on the gunman and take him out. I'm assuming that even if that is possible . . . you still get the same clue from the storekeeper.

    It's certainly stylish. I don't personally like the spinning options (difficult to read and select), but no question it is artistically nice. The graphics are great. But I don't see a "game" here, and haven't in any of the video released so far. I see an animated book, or one of those selection movies ("if you want the hero to shoot the monster, press '1'. If you want the hero to run away, press '2'. If you want the hero to play dead, press '3'. Choose now!!";).

    Interesting? Yes. Involving? Yes (or certainly can be assuming the story is up to snuff). Fun? That's iffy.

    A game? No.

  • schnide #96 2 years ago

    @Aname

    Of course that would be possible, and it would be two different stories. Particularly in an open world game, that's not difficult. And it's not particularly different from sitting in front of your DVD player and choosing whether to put in Amores Perros or Big Momma's House.

    You are nevertheless in either example following a linear story path which in itself easily stays congruent and believable as it doesn't have to change. If you suddenly were given the power to start fine tuning either of those stories within themselves, it opens up hundreds, thousands of connotations.

    What is the point of a game that lets you make lots of choices within the context of a story where they're cumulatively likely to make less narrative sense, than one excellent story you were just tricked into convincing you played a part in?

  • Aname #97 2 years ago

    @ Schnide

    Good grief of course the story "output" is linear, as is the output of a flow chart, say. Again beside the point, my point was in my example a story would be told, real choice offered and therefore story telling is not mutually exclusive with decision making. That's all my point has been. You are claiming the two cannot coexist while in the example you have accepted as possible, they obviously do.

    You can call these different paths different stories, again that is the entire point, that real choice can be offered with different stories resulting.

    And yes, the amount of paths obviously increase with the more real choices offered. I don't see this as a problem here other than in terms of effort required to produce each result.

    You make assumptions though that narrative must necessarily suffer. A fairly decent writer would be able to tell more than one interesting story given one setting, group of characters and situation, or be a to tell a story with variations within it well. Homer did this, when he told his stories, some details would change from one telling to the next. A good example in film might be Run Lola Run which gives 3 alternative stories that could arise from the initial starting situation (great film btw). The 3 stories together though are still regarded as one overall plot. I'm sure some stories could actually benefit from the choice-based game format, as others can benefit from being film or novel format.

    "What is the point of a game that lets you make lots of choices within the context of a story where they're cumulatively likely to make less narrative sense, than one excellent story you were just tricked into convincing you played a part in?"

    I don't know what to say here, other than the idea of being able to make real choices in such a game certainly appeals to me.

    Another way to look at it might be this:

    A writer, in a format such as a traditional linear novel, necessarily must make certain choices, and discard some variations, alternatives and sub-plots that may have been interesting but did not fit with the one storyline that was eventually decided upon, or were disregarded for other reasons. For each story that is told, all these other stories remain untold. In this format at least these alternatives may still be told.

    Take Trainspotting, for example. There are some things which happen in the book version, but not in the film, and vice versa. Which story is the definitive version? I would argue neither, as both are told well and work well in the format they are presented in. It's not difficult to imagine a writer might want to tell many variations, many sub-plots or alternative stories, that a traditional linear format would not allow. In this way this format is in some ways closer in nature to the roots of storytelling, where variations would occur between different tellings, such as in the Homeric tradition. There was no one "definitive" version.

    With the example of Seven, while I would argue that worked best in the format it was presented, and was not intended to work in this format, variations could be imagined for the sake of argument. Let us take the example of Brad Pitt's character (I forget the name) becoming Wrath and killing Kevin Spacey's character. The writer might have considered alternative endings. I'm not that writer, but could imagine if the story were made into a choice based game, the player might decide not to kill Kevin Spacey's character. Perhaps then we would see another side to Spacey's psychopath, when things for once do not go according to his plans, and he is no longer in complete control. Thwarted, unfamiliar with failure and unable to cope, perhaps he would become enraged by this, ironically becoming Wrath himself (as well as Envy, was it?). As I say though, I am not that writer, but you could see how that writer might be able to imagine another satisfying conclusion. Actually, I always found Seven to be overrated pap and the conclusion very unsatisfying, as I found it rather unbelievable that Spacey's psychopath could so precisely predict the actions of others with that degree of certainty. Anyway, that's all subjective - some people may prefer one alternative of a story, others another. Indeed many films have been released with alternative endings or other variations within as director's cuts or similar.

    The choice-based game format could I think even benefit certain stories or themes. Run Lola Run's 3 alternative stories allowed the film to explore themes such as free will vs determinism, and it would not be difficult to imagine the power of decision making could be employed by the writer to explore similar themes in perhaps a more powerful way than other formats might allow, and deal with ideas such as choice and consequence by giving the player that choice. Or to illuminate the limitations of choice some people might be faced with in some situations by placing the player in those situations, giving them that choice and then showing the consequences that arise.

    "Of course that would be possible, and it would be two different stories. Particularly in an open world game, that's not difficult. And it's not particularly different from sitting in front of your DVD player and choosing whether to put in Amores Perros or Big Momma's House."

    I think that is completely wrong. The setting, characters, history, mood, the initial situation, the themes, the style of story telling, the world the story occurs in, all these things would be shared. As I stated with Run Lola Run, while there are 3 alternative stories, together they are considered one plot, each revealing more about the world, the different characters, and the situation, as well as presenting the alternative story-lines. I'm sure there are other examples in film and literature as well. Perhaps you could consider them somewhat similar to a collection of short stories based around the same characters and situation, though obviously more integrated than that and existing in a shared time-line, where alternatives show us different aspects of the overall plot.
    Edited by 27 at 10/11/09 @ 20:16

  • butler` #98 2 years ago

    an extended QTE with awful controls hidden behind some nice gloss

  • schnide #99 2 years ago

    @Aname

    Edited 24 times? :)

    Am I saying that there can only be one way a story ever occurs? No of course not. Even some of the greatest stories ever told have flaws in them, things that don't quite stay true to the characters. But there certainly is what's approaching an optimum, because each plot points corresponds well with the others. The characterisation remains constant. As soon as you make changes, that reverberates outwards to other plot points, other aspects of a character.

    Run Lola Run is an example where those three stories have been specifically designed to be watched in succession. Each different viewpoint exists to cast a new light on the others. If you'd been given the option at the start of the film in making a decision that only allowed you to see one of those viewpoints, would it have been superior? It's the same as the Amores Perros example a page or two back.

    There is an inverse relationship between interactivity and storytelling. The more interaction you introduce, the more you weaken the narrative structure. Cage wants different gamers to talk about their own path through Heavy Rain. I somehow doubt that the forums are going to lit up with people saying "so, did you disarm the robber with a frying pan or some carefully chosen words? Wow, how thrilling!"

  • Aname #100 2 years ago

    @ Schnide

    Edited 26 times now. I'm a pedant. :D I knew you'd pick me up on that too :).. Anyway..

    "Am I saying that there can only be one way a story ever occurs? No of course not." Right. So you concede that decision-making and story telling are not actually mutually exclusive? That's what you were previously stating. Problematic or difficult, whatever, not impossible though?

    Yes, Run Lola Run was specifically designed for that format - and Heavy Rain has been specifically designed for its format. As I said every format has its strengths and weaknesses.

    I don't know how Heavy Rain will turn out, but I like the idea of a game primarily choice based and it is something I would enjoy if done well.

    I'd doubt people would light up the forums with the sort of discussions you mentioned either (though I appreciate having different options in such a scene). But if a game did offer many variations and real choices and pulled it off well, I could well imagine people discussing that for a long time. I don't know if Heavy Rain will succeed in all its promises, but the concept and format of decision-based rather than reaction or twitch based gaming is something I think could work and is something I'd love to see realised well.

    I disagree about your inverse relationship theory, too. I think that as I argued in my last post, the format could be beneficial to storytelling in some cases, I won't repeat what I've written here though.
    Edited by 7 at 10/11/09 @ 21:35

  • schnide #101 2 years ago

    Well I understand and accept your opinion, even if I don't agree with it. I think it's fundamentally failing to celebrate the differences in medium between games and films. Steven Poole has written a pretty good column about that in Edge this month.

    In the meantime, I think the best solution to the kind of game it sounds like you're looking for is Fallout 3. That to me best celebrates what games can do with a narrative. There's an overarching storyline, one in which you can only really have two main outcomes, and lots of smaller subplots which again have one or two outcomes. You're given the illusion that you're crafting some huge narrative, when in fact all you're doing is choosing the order. Because the subplots don't really relate to each other, how you come across them in between blasting generic raiders mixes action with story and negates the need for pacing.

    Heavy Rain won't have that luxury - but we will see how, and if, it does it instead at the start of next year.

    In the meantime, I've enjoyed debating it with you.

  • Aname #102 2 years ago

    Well I think I specifically mentioned the strengths of film as opposed to games, and of the written word, and the spoken word as well, thought I'd made that point very clearly, several times. I also believe though that interaction, decision-making and the possibility of using alternative story-lines have their own strengths in storytelling as well.

    I tried Fallout 3 and really didn't get into it, too repetitive, too dull, it didn't grip me enough so I haven't played it enough to talk about how it handled its narrative.

    Anyway I think we're done :) I suppose I enjoyed the debate as well, though clearly I'm right and you are wrong :p

    As for Heavy Rain, have to wait and see. I'm not really defending the game itself, just the idea of decision or choice based games, I think done well it could be very interesting, and appeal to many more people than those interested only in twitch type gameplay (which I enjoy as well) or what is traditionally thought of as gaming. Imagine playing a character in a storyline similar in setting and maturity to say, The Wire, what choices could or would you make? Or Rome (the series)? That's what is interesting to me, the possibility of being put into completely new environments, what would you do, what consequences would happen, what could all this say about us?

    Anyhoo, yeah. Said all I've meant to now I think. I'll probably check out that column though, thanks for that.
    Edited by 4 at 01/11/09 @ 22:13