Handhelds dominating - Squenix News

dare i say it!!


FIRST!!!

oh, cool news i guess..

Hopefully this will stop any more analysts saying that Square Enix is bound to support PS3 because it's "traditional".

SE (and all other large publishers) will go to whichever format they think will make them the most money and/or get them the widest audience, regardless of its technical merits. In fact this statement suggests they actively dislike consoles that are too complicated and too expensive for a mainstream audience.

I doubt that any of the 'never played games before' crowd are going to really enjoy Dragon Quest very much. Its appeal is very much that it's a traditional RPG, by its very nature I don't believe it's going to appeal much to casual gamers who were attracted to the DS by stuff like Nintendogs.

"Wada went on to suggest that Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 are not well-suited to the current demographic: "There are too many specs - and you also need a high-definition TV, a broadband connection and a deep knowledge of gaming - these consoles are mismatched to today’s environment." "

My sentiments exactly.

"There are too many specs - and you also need a high-definition TV, a broadband connection and a deep knowledge of gaming - these consoles are mismatched to today’s environment."

Yes, let's all re-sell old hardware as "next-gen".

"Yes, let's all re-sell old hardware as "next-gen"."

I think he's trying to say that most people don't want next gen hardware, they want simpler-to-use hardware.

And to be fair, the market seems to back up this claim: the DS is outselling the PSP, and the Wii is outselling the PS3 and 360 put together.

I agree with him. few years ago, if developer don't develop hardcore game, the company have no future. I am betting my future career on mobile consoles and casual gaming, developing games for new gamers.

@chupachups:

True - the current Wii hype proves him right... for now. In 1-2 years the situation may change, which he also admits. So should MS and Sony have waited with their next-gen consoles or made then less "future prof" ?
No - they did it right it's just called looking ahead and not sticking to old standards.

Also, if he want's to develop "simpler games" he can still do that on XBLA and PSN.. there's a growing marked for simple/casual games on 360 and PS3. The compexity is not forced on him.

Hopefully this will stop any more analysts saying that Square Enix is bound to support PS3 because it's "traditional".

No i think it was something about the way SE traditionally handle their games on the platform like Final fantasy is always built for one console etc etc.

Infact it was Yoichi Wada CEO of SE who said the Final Fantasy franchise was seen as traditional business.

The guy is an idiot.

how exactly does a console have 'too many specs'????

I have no idea on how my 360 works or what its specs are because it doesnt matter to me. I put a disc in and play a game, just like I did with PS2, PSone, SNEs, Master system. I cant see how a consoles 'specs' can put people off.

Yeah, the HD thing can seem daunting and it is a bit of a minefield as there arent really industry standards but next gen consoles work just fine on normal tellys too.

This whole surge into casual gaming seems inherently flawed to me. Granted the DS in japan has been a bit of a phenomenon but gaming is a more mainstream pastime there anyway. All these 'non-gamers' buying DS's and Wiis right now is fine, but a year down the line when they have all got nintendogs, brain training and wii sports, that will be the end of it.

A traditional gamer with a 360/PS3 or whatever, will probably buy what, maybe 10 full price games each year, maybe more. that seems a more robust demographic to hang your business model on in the long term.

so what you are saying is the DS(?!) and Wii are simply going to stop selling in a year or 2? granted the wii is still proving itself (and doing it with ease) but the DS??? you are off your rocker afghan_jones, in 1 or 2 years time i think it's more likely you will be proven to be the idiot not the CEO of Squenix

"how exactly does a console have 'too many specs'????"

HDMI output, Composite output, Blu-Ray playback, HDDVD playback, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, HDD size, 5.1 output, wireless support, bluetooth support etc etc etc.

Not really things you or I would consider to be 'specs' in the traditional sense, but to someone who does not follow the latest developments in technology its confusing as hell.
Much easier to get a machine that has the screen and speakers built-in so you dont have to worry about all that crap.
In other words - a handheald.

@afghan_jones

It’s not about console specs putting people off but about console specs that nobody is interested in.

As the original xbox showed, focusing on just the hardcore/traditional gamer is not enough to make your console profitable in 4-5 years time. PS3 and 360 make such a focus even less likely. Development cost have risen enormously, while the games don’t appeal to a wider audience. So the games are less profitable than before.

Whether we like it or not, casual gaming will be the direction the video game industry will go. Because that’s where the money’s at.

It's debatable just how "future proof" the 360 is when MS already talked up their next-next gen plans earlier this year. I'll wager those golden years everyone seems to refer to when they say "not yet" in terms of Wii sales and the graphical/gameplay appeal of 360/ps3 games won't actually come. (If it does I bet it'll be on the PS3 while MS are prepping their new console)

I often hear how the gap between the Wii and the 360 hardware wise will grow more significant over time, but the 360 has been out for nearly two years already, so how long will it actually be before we get this period where it all gets justified? Will it just magically produce visuals one day that are irreplacable with last gen ones? And to whom?

Until that extra power means more than HD resolutions and HDR "normal" people won't care. Soon enough devs will feel that their 2½ year development period on each game just isn't worth it. That, and the money invested means vastly less "must have" games than last generation with huge gaps between them, coming out ONLY in the most sales heavy seasons of the year continuing the trend of march and september as the only really significant shopping times. They'll realise that they can produce a game with the exact same appeal gameplay wise in half the time with the snazzyness toned down and sell it to an infinitely larger audience.

I'd write a disclaimer but I'll just say it and hope that's sufficient; I own all the consoles and I don't have particular interest invested in any one of them. These are just objective observations.

I'll also say that even though I like what the Wii is doing and fully support that direction, agreeing with my points doesn't mean signing under the death warrant on graphics heavy consoles. That's not my desire either.

What he's also forgetting is that hardcore gamers buy more games. Yes the Wii is selling well (at the moment - the Gamecube also sold well at the beginning of it's life) but what about the games to console ratio? I doubt anyone who owns a Wii and any other console has more games on the Wii.

Also as for this more casual gamers push... I'm sorry but I don't want "mass market" games like Little Britain, Hulk, PotC:AWE Spiderman3 etc. I want Mass Effect, Okami, Bioshock etc.

OK I know the money you make by selling easy risk free games the more money you can risk on original games, but I wish the market was just focused on good games.

Finally the reason behind the DS's success is lot's of easy to pick up quick gaming where you can achieve something on a 2 minute tube journey (and save your progress). Dragon Quest doesn't really fit this formula (unless you can save anywhere... including inside 40min conversations/cut scenes).

afghan_jones is getting a lot of stick for his comments, but overall I agree.

The DS has amazing sales and will stay that way. It'll be the highest selling console of all time sooner or later.

The Wii on the other hand is unconvincing. Sales are one thing, but I think the motion sensing will prove far less influential than touch screen has. The line-up also appears not to be improving.

That's the crux of it. The 360 has a proven track record over the last year of bringing good games to us, and the PS3 will certainly have some killer apps in the next couple of years. On the other hand my Wii purchase is starting to give me the same feeling as my Gamecube did.

Nintendo used exactly the same design philosophy in making the Wii as it did in making the DS*, even though the handheld market is a very different beast.


*Low cost of production, profitable hardware. low spec, innovative control system.

/hides

"What he's also forgetting is that hardcore gamers buy more games. Yes the Wii is selling well (at the moment - the Gamecube also sold well at the beginning of it's life) but what about the games to console ratio?"

Matters far less if you sell your console at a profit, as Nintendo does with the Wii. For publishers, this doesn't really matter, although it could mean Nintendo charges them less for releasing games on the Wii, therefore making the games more profitable.

@Simon

So you're trying to tell me that Oblivion could be done on the Wii? Bethesda disagree.

The 360 has already justified itself, especially in relation to the Wii. In terms of both hardware and software.

Les: "Matters far less if you sell your console at a profit, as Nintendo does with the Wii. For publishers, this doesn't really matter"

Yeah, but it's gonna matter for the poor sods who bought Wiis expecting real games. If the demographic of the Wii is mostly casual gamers you're going to get nothing but rubbish. Enjoy.

"The 360 has already justified itself, especially in relation to the Wii. In terms of both hardware and software."

To the traditional gamer, yes, but as a commercially viable console, the answer is still no.

"To the traditional gamer, yes, but as a commercially viable console, the answer is still no."

Strong software sales and now profitable hardware isn't viable? MS seem to have learned a lot from their failures with the original Xbox. The 360 looks like it'll turn them a healthy profit as well as increasing their marketshare.

ManicDrunkMonk +1

This is perhaps a bit cynically stated, but since Ninty makes a profit on the Wii, they can allow it to slowly bleed to death as the Cube did, since they already made a profit on every sale. They simply do not have the pressure that MS and Sony have to make a profit on the software.

The casual market really is a new market though, and I think Nintendo played real smart here. They managed to use this new market as well as existing Nintendo fandom and enthusiasm to sell an underpowered machine for the amount of money they do (undercompetative compared to Sony and MS in terms of value) and with a lack of compelling titles.

"Yeah, but it's gonna matter for the poor sods who bought Wiis expecting real games. If the demographic of the Wii is mostly casual gamers you're going to get nothing but rubbish. Enjoy."

Depends on your definition of 'real games' and 'rubbish'. If you're a hardcore gamer, than Wii might not be attractive. But the hardcore are also becoming a less and less attractive demographic with the rising production cost of 'hardcore' games and their relatively small numbers.

@Les

I wasn't really thinking about money from a console manufactorers point of view (I don't think Nintendo are in any kind of trouble - far from it) more a publishers point of view. If console A has 10million units and console B has 15million units but sales on console A will be 25% and sales on console B will be 10% if you had to pick one console to relase your game on would it be console A or console B?

For those of you haven't got GCSE Maths it would be console A as sales would reach 2.5million as opposed to 1.5million.

To look at this theory in a real setting gamesindustry.biz quoted 1st week sales of Spiderman 3 as 73% PS2 and 25% Xbox 360. That leaves the other consoles* and the PC fighting over just 2% of total sales.

*I heard rumours the PS3 version was delayed which, if true, would exclude it from these percentages.

PS Consoles and Handhelds are different markets.

"Depends on your definition of 'real games' and 'rubbish'. If you're a hardcore gamer, than Wii might not be attractive. But the hardcore are also becoming a less and less attractive demographic with the rising production cost of 'hardcore' games and their relatively small numbers."

The thing is, casual gamers don't buy many games at the price-point of Wii games. I live with a "casual gamer" who bought a Wii. He has bought ZERO games for it. In fact it's been in it's box since Jan, once the appeal of Wii Sports wore off. Why would casual gamers spend £40 on games, especially the type of games you're talking about? They wont.

The definition of hardcore gamer is so vague. I suppose I'd be called a "hardcore gamer" in that I buy a crapload of games and play them on any system.

Therefore I also own a Wii and a bunch of games for that, so how does my supposed hardcoreness negate owning and enjoying Wii games?

And they are enjoyable. I think "casual" games has gotten a bad ring to it, but there's really value in a game you can just pick up and have a go at and not worry about the cumbersome profile setups and statistics and elaborate narrative and mission structures and all that. I mean there's that too on the system in the likes of Zelda and Sonic, but many of the games - and this is something I think consistently appeals to a lot of people "bored" of games - are no frills FUN. Mario Strikers takes about 20 seconds to get into a match that lasts 5 minutes max, and it's just a blast whether you're insanely good at it or not.

I think this is a quality people underestimate. I mean yes, I can just pop over into Forza 2 when I want a meatier and more time consuming experience, and I prolly wouldn't want to trade that away entirely.. but even so, there's nothing inherently wrong or stupid about those fast-fix games.

On the contrary, games take themselves so seriously nowadays I think we HAVE to have them. I mean jesus, in another report on this site right now a guy goes on about political messages in games. :O

@ Simon

But is the price you pay for the Wii and it's games really worth it for such an experience? Shallow, quick-fix games/mini-games are all well and good but at full price? No thanks.

Anyway, isn't the whole point of LIVE Arcade for such quick-fix games?

SimonM7

I see your point. In fact the main thing missing from the 360 (and PS3) line up are nice pick up and play games and party games like Singstar or Buzz. However that is partly what XBLA is there for. Also in the long term there is no reason why party games (or disc based pick up and play games) won't work on the 360 (or PS3), Forza 2 on the Wii is a different story.

PS. Can just say it's nice to have a decent debate on these forums for once. With everyone making valid points and reasonable arguments without fanboy accusations or name calling.

@ manic_mouse

Well don't confuse accessible with shallow. Soul Calibur allows anyone to have fun with it, but you can technically play it on a more advanced level too.

Mario Strikers isn't shallow, it's just easy to get into. I wouldn't place it alongside mobile phone shootoffs Luxor, Bejeweled, Zuma and the like, and the career modes (and the fact that you can play the cups with up to three friends co-operatively) gives it heaps of value beyond its quick-fix exterior.

That said, the value of something like Wario Ware at 35 quid is certainly up for debate, but the whole mini-game compilation orgy criticism leveled at the Wii is really quickly becoming more myth than fact.

Sure enough, in theory XBLA could be home to these types of games, but I dunno if it's done a particularly good job of it so far. There's potential there, but it doesn't seem like anyone is interested in making a lasting game for it. Maybe it's because it lacks the authencity of a retail game? Released alongside Galaga and Rally X I suppose I can't blame them.

It's like.. if a game is released on the XBLA then you and me and a lot of other people just won't really take the game seriously, and I think that's reflected in devs reluctancy to make anything worthwhile for it. I mean sure we'll put down a few quid for the likes of Geometry Wars, but do you really trust Outpost Kaloki to deliver anywhere close to the level of content you'd get off of a similar PC game? I think people are prone to underestimate a more ambitious game for the XBLA, and anything above the magical price level of 800 points is doomed. Not a very inviting climate for a significantly more engrossing experience than Luxor.

@ RexRunti

Impressive math skills! ;-) But if the development cost of the game for console A would be twice as high as for the game on console B, it's an entirely different story...

I'm not disputing the importance of games sold per console. But it's just one factor amongst many.

"Also in the long term there is no reason why party games (or disc based pick up and play games) won't work on the 360 (or PS3), Forza 2 on the Wii is a different story."

From a technical POV, you're right. But especially the 360 brand isn't generally associated with party games. It’ll be quite hard to change the perception of the public that xbox = halo, like Viva piñata has shown.

Well with broadband now free with a telephone package and 32" LCD TVs being available for £350 I think he's living in the past slightly. High def, always connected gaming is happening for a lot of people right now.

I dont think specs are that off putting for casual gamers as they really dont look at them. Casual gamers see adverts for FIFA 08 or Gears of war on tv and say ooh look, that looks ace, ill buy a 360. Its only the hardcore who go and compare stats between consoles.

For the Wii, I totally agree with other posters that although Nintendo make a profit on the consoles, the take up rate for the games is pitiful compared to 360 or PS2.

Ive probably bought 8-10 games for various 'traditional' consoles since christmas. I doubt all the people who scrabbled for a Wii in december have bought more than 1-2 games each. Long term, this just isnt going to work.

The DS will continue to do well as it does straddle demographics well, especially in japan but i doubt Dragon quest will be a hit on DS outside of Japan itself.

The main reason I called the guy an idiot is that I think we can all agree that the market for 40 hour japanese RPGs could generally be seen as falling into the 'hardcore' bracket rather than the 'casual'.




Also, to echo what was said above, hurrah for a sensible debate rather than fanboy name calling.

Just adding another twist to the mathematics of how to release a game but PC, PS3 and XBox 360 are all very simularly specced. The Wii is uniquly under powered when compared with current gen platforms so as the previous gen fades (PS2 essentially is all that's left) that combined with it's uniques controller will actually increase costs of development.

More serious games like Call of Duty 3 don't really work on the Wii and while I agree XBLA is more there for the WAGs of hardcore gamers there is nothing stopping party/pnp games appearing on the 360. Some already do although Rav Rabbids and Fuzion Frenzy probably should be kept quiet. I suppose MS need to give as strong a push to Monster Madness as Forza and Gears.

Oh and going back to the original article there is no way Dragon Quest will ever be a casual game.

The Wii and DS do not generally appeal to those of us that like 'traditional' games. I know this as I own both and can safely say that I get far more entertainment from the platforms i.e. XBox 360/PS3 and the PSP that offer more more traditional game experiences than what Nintendo are currently serving up.

There are exceptions with Zelda, Metroid, Mercury Revolution and Mario Galaxy but generally the entertainment value of games on the current generation of Nintendo platforms I feel is really laclustre and I know why.

The games on Nintendo machines are not for people who actually like video games at all. They are for people who have little to no interest in them and would actually be offended by the very thought that they found video games entertaining in any way. Putting it bluntly these are people that think its ok to play Soduko on their DS but would rather be trepained by a drunk monkey that is armed with a rusty spoon than play Forza 2 for 10 seconds.

In summary then the Wii and DS are made for people who hate video games i.e. the overwhealming majority of the planet. Nice market to go after eh? Hmmm.

@ Kropotkin

What a load of tosh. So people who don't "just" enjoy the same old thing over and over "hate" videogames? That's just stupid.

I agree that traditionalists and somewhat conservative gamers (nothing bad about those people) will push things like gyro control and the stylus away, but the notion that you can't enjoy those things in the capacity of a proper gamer is just ignorant.

“I doubt all the people who scrabbled for a Wii in december have bought more than 1-2 games each. Long term, this just isnt going to work.”

I’m not sure. Wii is profitable right now, while the ultimate hardcore gamer machine, the xbox, wasn’t in it’s four year life cycle. Despite it’s high games:console ratio. I don’t think a machine that caters mainly for the hardcore can ever be profitable within 4-5 years. Developing such a machine is just too expensive. Even Microsoft will drop out eventually if it can’t extent the reach of xbox to the casual market or generate other streams of revenue like downloadable movie/music content.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the hardcore console gamer market will collapse in the end and games like Gears of War, Halo, Resistance, etc. will move to the PC platform.

“The Wii is uniquly under powered when compared with current gen platforms so as the previous gen fades (PS2 essentially is all that's left) that combined with it's uniques controller will actually increase costs of development.”

Designing the gameplay will probably take more effort but I don’t expect that that increase outweighs the reduced development cost of creating lower def in-game assets. But I’m no game developer, so maybe someone else has some insights with regards to this?

I totally agree with you on Dragon Quest. Though it might be that the DS will be the new PS2: appealing to both the hardcore and casual gamer. As last gen has shown, that’s quite an attractive combination. :-)

Ah we're getting our markets confused again. The handheld market is different from the console market. Most (most not all) console games need to be aimed at the person who comes home from work and wants to relax/escape on their sofa. It's the same sort of market as DVDs and television sometimes we want something substantial like 24 or Infernal Affairs other times we don't like Big Brother or Josie and the Pussycats. Sometimes we want to share our experiences with others which is where party games etc. come in.

Handhelds are a different kettle of fish. People need to dip in and out and shouldn't get too engrossed. Also by necessity the games need to be simple to play and quick to make advancements. This where the PSP ran into difficulties as it (initially) focused on portable playstation games. People don't want Gran Turismo on a hand held they want Mario Kart. They don't want Tomb Raider, Gears of War or Command and Conquer they want Loco Roco, Nintendogs and Tetris.

Meanwhile those same handheld games while still fun on consoles just aren't substantial enough for the modern gamer. It may of course be enough for the "casual gamer" but eventually even games like WarioWare and Pheonix Wright look basic when compared with Spiderman 3, Pirates of the Carrabian and GTA which will always be the games people want consoles for.

“Ah we're getting our markets confused again. The handheld market is different from the console market.”

I’m under the impression the handheld and console gaming experience are converging more and more. Partly because handhelds have evolved enough to be able to replicate stand-alone console type games and partly because more casual games appear to work on a console as well.

There is no reason why you couldn't implement something like Oblivion or Forza on Wii if you were willing to take a serious graphical hit. If what's left afterwards is not a great game, that may say more about the importance of graphics to the game than the platform. Don't forget, Carrier Command & Captain Blood came out on the Spectrum in the end.

There is also no reason why a hardcore game experience (by which I mean deep and engrossing) can't happen on a casual platform. Most people bought a SNES for Mario and then stuck around for Zelda or Final Fantasy. If the userbase is big enough someone will take a risk on a proportion of those users being interested in a longer play experience.

PS. I would rather cut my brain out with a rust can-opener than play Forza for 20 minutes but I don't think I hate videogames.

@wizbob

If you would genuinely prefer to take your own life in a prolonged and painful manner rather than play forza 2 for 20 minutes you should probably get yourself a nice padded cell. I'm not sure you should be allowed to use a computer either to be honest.