Halo has "a lot to learn" from COD4 Comments by Ellie Gibson

@anomagnus:

That's not my point. My point is that, during my playthroughs, the AI acted as though it was scripted. So what he's saying is that Halo is different to CoD4 because they used a "simulation" instead of scripting. But why? There is no discernable difference bar the enemies spawning in CoD4 until you cross a magical invisible line. Halo just has enemies that once dead don't come back. Does that make it any more simulated warfare? No. Can the Arbiter be killed? No. Can the Arbiter take out all the enemies on the level? No. Can the Arbiter go off on his own free will under simulated thought? No. Even the Warthog drivers are morons who can't get round a tiny bit of debris. That's why I don't get where this simulation element comes from.

I agree with squarejaw, there really is no alternative in a console FPS, and I'm not badmouthing anyone who does like the single player mode. But to badmouth me because I dispute the Bungie guy's comments? That's just childish.

@Seasidebaz - Well, i don't know what happened when you played it then. Did you try it on higher difficulty settings? When I was going through it on co-op on the highest difficulty setting the enemies were absolutely insane, outflanking us, taking different routes each time, and the AI squadmates were the same. Some of the pitched battle areas played out completey differntly each time we tried a section.

In CoD4, you can't get that, because the movements of the enemies and AI are predetermined, ie, scripted, so theres no room for variation here at all. it'll always play out the same way.

Halo 3 simulates the reactions of the various parties on the fly, according to what the various parties, players, AI characters, etc, do. Hence simulation.

Look, can I press a bit fat reset button on this thread. Clearly Halo makes people emotional, meaning that even when people write a well structured and convincing response, they can't help but end it with something like "You look like a dick. "

seasidebaz, you clearly didn't enjoy some aspects of Halo (almost everyone can agree, the flood levels were bobbins, even Bungie admit it in trusted circles). But by your own voice you enjoyed other parts of it. Your first catty comment has opened a pandora's box full of fanlove, and its made everyone get a bit stroppy. You clearly misunderstood the definition of "simulation", but have now been provided with plenty of information and clarity, and I'm sure you are man enough to admit to the misunderstanding and be delighted to have expanded your vocabulary :)

So can we all just get back onto the subject at hand. Halo and CoD4 both did ludicrously well in the shops, so we have plenty of material to compare, contrast and discuss like adults. Seriously, threads where everyone just calls everyone else a cock in uppercase letters are SO damn boring.

Tell you what. If you are all really good, we can pop back over to the C&C thread later and make more comments about Gemma Atkinson's tits. Can't say fairer than that.

@seasidebaz

berelain raises a good question. I also found that on the harder settings, the AI in Halo behaved noticeably differently. It wasn't just a matter of bigger health bars and more damaging guns. They moved and coordinated differently, and reacted to the player's movements and actions much more intelligently.

Yeah I have to agree with berelain and kangarootoo, stick it in legendary and it's a different animal. It really changes the way you play.

@ seasidebaz

did you even play halo 3?

I have yet to play the game and not discover something new.

Just last night, i watched several of the marines take down a scarab, and one of them crash their mongoose into the back of it, dropping the marines on the platform.

Can the arbiter take down all the enemies on a level? Well, hes certainly more than capable of it, as long as you move from check point to check point. If you hold back, he can destroy plenty of enemies.

As for the drivers of the warthogs, yea, some times they get stuck, but thats about the only point of poor ai you can focus on. Certainly, when i'm driving the warthog, they're more than capable of handling themselves, and are excellent shots.

The fact is, you're into semantics now. Now you're complaining because the ai cocks up once in a while. Play the game on heroic or legendary, watch the large set pieces with vehicles, and do it five times, you'll see every time, something different, as the game simulates the marines and covenant.

COD would have the same respawn over and over and over.

I notice from your gamer card for example, that you haven't really dived to far into the game, yet you feel qualified to come on here, declare your opinion, without having anything other than a cursory play of the game as evidence of your dislike.

I imagine you've finished it once on normal. Bungie themselves says the game is meant to be played on harder difficulties.

I think the whole simulation argument can be cleared up thusly -

Simulation means to simulate reality. This doesn't mean the setting has to be real. It means that a fantasy game can simulate cloth, and aliens can simulate human intelligence when creating attack/defense strategies and apply them individually (which is what Halo does and COD4 does not).

COD4 may simulate environments, weapons and clothing and situations, but it's not as successful in simulating a tactical battle environment as Halo. It does, however, attempt to simulate the feeling of being in a battle by throwing a lot of enemies and fire into the mix, but is comparatively shallow.

To be fair, my first comment got posted exactly the same time I read that it was a "simulation"

I can't account for co-op, but in single player on all difficulties (bar the hardest - didn't play that very long) there is a very predictable movement pattern to the enemies based on player input, which is quite easy to exploit. Between difficulties it does vary massively, but there's always a pattern. Thus probably why what I saw the AI do could be construed as a highly scripted pattern, to the point that when death occurs, all that needs to be changed is where you stand ever so slightly, or shoot a different enemy first, or whatever, and that will usually allow you to avoid bullets etc.

I think there has been some misunderstanding all round, I can accept that my view of a simulation is probably a lot stricter than most people's, and I need to open my mind a bit more, but that comes from being a developer where a simulation is everything or nothing ;)

Also, I may join you in the C&C thread. For some reason I've not been this interested in a C&C game since the first one... ;)

@anomagnus: Moved house so didn't have broadband then sold xbox about a month before I got back online, hence lack of updates. There's a few more points on my gamerscore, not sure how many. I can really understand that Halo is a personal experience, but from my personal experience, the single player was lacking. MP was where it was at ;)

I think when Bungie says simulation, they mean 'simulated decision process'. So rather than telling the enemies what to do, which equipment to use, etc. in a given situation, the 'sandbox' nature of their gameplay means they have to leave all that largely up to the A.I. I recall listening to one of the gameplay designers talk about how he could only give 'hints' to the A.I, and even he was often surprised by how it reacted.

That doesn't mean the A.I's reactions are themselves realistic, or that they don't fall into patterns of behaviour, only that the game designers have necessarily limited control of them, which makes scripting difficult (because they can't be completely certain that an enemy will react in the same way 100% of the time).

If SP Halo is lacking, honestly, play it on Heroic and Legendary. That's how you solve it.

I think subtlesnake pretty much nailed it with his description there.

Bungie have explained in the past that the AI behaviours are less obvious at lower difficulties, not because they tone them down, but because the enemies have less health and get killed before they can move very far from their starting location which is always the same.

There has to be a sweet spot between COD/HL2 scripting, Halo's sim and Left 4 Dead's random spawns to create the ultimate replayable campaign.

I found Halo tedious and boring personally.

I played the (rather dull) campaign once, tried the multiplayer and hated all the jumping idiots, then went back to CoD multiplayer which was much more enjoyable.

One reason I hated the Halo 3 Campaign was because they copied the single worst bit from Halo 1, the final buggy race. And the Flood are quite simply the most uninspired and boring enemy ever created.

Master Chief is still fucking awesome though.

COD4's multiplayer is horrifically overhyped. I still pop in on Halo 3 now and again for a blast in MP, almost a year on.

And seriously, don't say this to appease the whiners, Bungie. COD4's SP campaign is good for one run, that's it, finito. I would still enjoy playing through the Halo 3 campaign again now.

NONONONONONO!

please dont take the delightfully emergent gameplay of halo and replace it with the piss weak scripted shite of COD4.

Ive played Halo's campaign through about 10 times on various difficulties and each time it was different experience with different tactics needed. Eveyr time there was something new that surprised me.

COD4 has none of that. You play it once, youve seen all it can possibly offer. The higher difficulties dont change enemy intelligence or how they act, just make the whoel thing a frustrating tedium of trial and error until you know exactly where enemies pop out every single time. In a way its like Time Crisis in that to beat it on the higher difficulties you dont need actual skill, just ak nowledge of where people pop up.

completing these games on their highest difficulty settings makes you age... horribly

Just my opinion people. I didn't like it and much prefer CoD MP. I prefer the fact you only need to shoot people a few times to kill them, not empty entire clips and still need to run up and punch them in the face!

Of course, my favourite MP ever is GRAW. You simply can't beat the ablilty of one shot kills with any weapon.

@
seasidebaz

"Between difficulties it does vary massively, but there's always a pattern"

But there SHOULD always be a pattern. That is good game design. If there was never a pattern, the player would never be able to form a strategy or improve through practice.

Halo isn't (shouldn't be) just about being good at putting the corss hair over things. It is also about combat strategy and flanking. Without a pattern in enemy behaviour, that element of the game would be missing.

I would dispute that the behaviour patterns are as easy to recognise and exploit as you suggest. I know several ludricrously hardcore players of Halo, and they still consider playing through on Legendary to be quite a challenge.

Lets hope it never learns CoD4 lousy hit-detection and matchmaking.

+1 at Fab4.

The thing is seasidebaz, the AI isn't predictable or scripted at all, well in comparison to CoD4 anyway, so I've come to the conclusion that you're just lying to try and make your point.

@funkyd:

Thing is, I know it's not scripted, I know the thing's completely AI-driven, I'm just stating my observations. Similar thing happened with Gears of War, when I pointed out that Dom doesn't know how to use cover / stay alive / shoot / anything, I just get blasted because "it doesn't happen to anyone else", apparently. Anyway, argument about that closed. I found out how to exploit it, go me, roll on next Halo cos I'm hoping for some INCREDIBLY good things from it.

well i hope bungie isn't serious. I loved al the ingame cutscenes, especially the one when MC found Cortana, that's all i need from scripted events (that scene is so memorable to me.) i can't stand CoD4's constantly respawning enemies. I played through on normal, and thought hey, why don't i try and get some more achievements on veteran, because that is how i play games. Beat on normal, and if it's good, beat it on hardest difficulty. Cod4 with it's constant respawn makes the game almost un-enjoyable. If i take out my enemies like clockwork and feel good about it, but only to have those same batch of enemies come running back and not even have moved yet, that is rather frustrating. Cod4's design is very backwards as far as game generations go.

Please bungie do not go backwards in game development, because of the competition, let IW be good at scripted games, i love the sandbox form of Halo. Just improve the AI (which i thought was great by the way.)

So as long you don't learn to putt the player behind botllenecks of infinite enemy spawn points!

You would think some people would realise that he is talking about creating a bit more scripted scenes into Halo, so you get some kind of memorable moment in the game. I can remember nearly the whole CoD4 campaign. In Halo 3 the campaign sucks after one playthrough. Can't remember any of it and thats coming from somebody who put god knows how many hours into exploring every single little piece of Halo 2's campaign, running tanks up mountains ftw!

I tell you what is very interesting, if you read the full interview he goes on to mention they have loads of assets for a new Myth game, which they can make now they're seperate from Microsoft...

I thought COD4 was terrific although ultimately I preferred COD2. I was shocked at what a crock H3 was, to look at and to play. OK, I'm hardly a FPS fan buy my God I really was shocked to see how bad it looked and the (to me) utter lack of a coherent storyline (I have no previous H experience) killed it for me after an hour ...

The storyline is perfectly coherent, if you've played the previous games. If not, then it's like watching the Matrix sequels without having seen the original.

The scripting in CoD 4 sucked frankly. Sure, it made sure you always saw what they wanted you to see, but it played the same every time you played it. It was too easy to abuse the scripting, you constantly felt railroaded and limited by it. Halo has none of these problems with it's single player. MP, well that's a different kettle of fish. Unlocks are addictive but they really aren't my cup of tea either.

Guess I'm just a halo fag huh? :P

I have one question which is loosley related to this thread but I think I might get a good response judging from the comments all of you have already made.

My situation is this... I absolutely loved the single player campaign for COD4, and I have never played any of the Halo games... reasons being that I have never been interested, never owned an xbox of any kind and I can't stand playing FPS's wish a console controller (I have COD4 on PC). I'll admit that there may be a few instances in COD4 that are a bit too scripted, but I think that the scripting is part of the style of the game which makes it so immersive. Anyways, that is off topic. I have been becoming more and more curious about Halo and this thread in particular has really got me interested in the style of the game.

For a while now I have been contemplating getting Halo 1 and 2 on PC (getting an xbox is out of the question for me since I prefer PC and simply cant afford a new console) so that I can catch up on the story and then hope that they port Halo 3 to PC aswell. I just want to know if the PC versions are actually any good at all and if all of you guys think this would be a good way for me to get into Halo. Any advice is welome. Cheers