Gran Turismo 5 Prologue Comments by Rob Fahey

DrD: the point is, what will be the price of GT (the Demo, ooops, sorry - Prologue + Full Game) be ?
Or the purchases are mutualy exclusive ?

GT's mutated into a kind of Matchbox car collection game though, with the option to drive them round tracks sometimes. It's an odd beast.

if you stop on the racing line they'll just drive through you

Surely that points to the AI fundamentally being 'on-rails'? If they haven't managed to correct this after 10 years of purely developing the same game over and over it has to be a worry.

"Surely that points to the AI fundamentally being 'on-rails'? If they haven't managed to correct this after 10 years of purely developing the same game over and over it has to be a worry."

It points to the AI not being perfect at looking at what the player is doing. It's not on rails. I've played the game and I know it's not on rails. It's clear they've written the AI to assume the player will drive properly, and when you do they race with you properly.

So it's limited, but it definitely isn't on rails and it makes for great racing.

i think i just came...

I agree, I think Forza has suppassed this game. Forza 2 has built an incredible community, with the auction house, paint jobs and tuning. Probably not set the world alight with sales, but without these additions I don't see me ever going back to the GT series now.

"'if you stop on the racing line they'll just drive through you'

Surely that points to the AI fundamentally being 'on-rails'? If they haven't managed to correct this after 10 years of purely developing the same game over and over it has to be a worry."

I have to agree with that one. I like a wide and varied range of driving games, from proper PC sims like GTR2, RACE and rFactor (a bit laughable to see GT5 being described as "the most realistic driving game ever" in this preview, unless this was aimed at the graphics - like the Forza games, it's probably what I usually call a "pseudo sim") over assorted console racers like PGR 3/4, Forza 2, Burnout, Flatout etc., and I'm having a hard time thinking of a single one with worse AI than GT4.

I can certainly settle for less than the usually extremely impressive AI in the SimBin games (often so great that you get far better and more competive races against AI drivers than even some decent online pickup races), but you really couldn't use the word AI at all about the computer controlled "drivers" in GT4.
As others have pointed out, they were utterly and completely oblivious to your - or each other's - presence on the track, and pretty much entirely on rails. Not exactly a good recipe for interesting offline races to say the least, so I'm certainly hoping they have vastly improved on that in GT5.

Aside from that I'm looking forward to trying this Prologue thing (I'm gonna need a Blu-ray player soon, so I'll probably get a PS3) - it's especially nice to see they are including cockpit views, something that shouldn't be left out of a racing game pretending to be a sim (yeah, I'm looking at you Forza :) - at least PGR4 got it right on the 360).

cockpit views are a bit weird though, the field of view is always too wide so you can actually see any of the interior, and then you end up with the sensation of driving from the back seat with 10-foot arms. When you drive in real life, you're looking through the windscreen, the cockpit is just in your peripheral vision. I mean, why not go the whole hog and draw the edges of the helmet visor in too, so you're peering at an even smaller rectangle of track?

DiRT has two interior views, one of which just has a bit of steering wheel at the bottom. That's much more like it. I guess there's no point going to the effort of modelling all the interior detail if you don't get to see it, though.

@Shinji
"Of course, the real fix for bad AI is obvious; race against other people, and that's the single biggest piece of progress in this game."

If you race against other people you know and trust, maybe. Unfortunately, I find real people are even worse than the brain-dead Gran Turismo AI as they will actively try and ram you rather than just hitting you if you were in their way on the racing line.

At least in Forza you can force simulation damage on, which will make most people realise that trying to t-bone you off on a corner will take you both out of the race. With invincible cars in GT, that won't be the case.

If you stop on a racing line, no amount of AI will create a realistic experience because it would involve 3/4s of a tonne of Audi being rammed up your arse at 200 mph. On rails or whatever. What matters is how it works when racing. The demo was decent, and if it keeps improving as Shinji says, it looks good. However, the lack of damage kills it for me - just feels wrong - so Burnout will most likely do my racing fun this year.

"Arguably most people can match their modeling; it then comes down to the question of who can maintain that standard with the most efficient meshes"

Alot of that comes from doing GT3 when it was in early development they car models were 4MB each then Sony told them the system how much memory the PS2 would have and they had to work on drastically reducing that whilst keeping the cars looking the same as in early screen shots,

As for paying for prologue i'm really quite happy paying for 5 tracks with 2 varients each and 30+ cars. Hopefully Sony will continue their trend of being nice to europe with their online content and only charge £15

I'id also argue the GT is probably Sony biggest console seller in europe, so if the final game lives up to the promise of prologe it could be what boosts sony to catch up with MS

ps. now i hate having to do this but it seems a requirement on EG these days, please note I said catch up with MS NOT suppass, this is mearly an observation of the potential qualtiy of GT5 and at no point have I expressed any desire or belief in the demise of either PS3 or 360 I have both and enjoy both equal and in the same respect I have my greduges with both Sony and MS equally.

Sorry for double post but this made more sence as separate issue.

Now I don't know if this is still the case but wasn't one reason given in past versions of GT for the lack of crash damage was that one or two car manufactures would only give them the rights to reproduce the in an "as new" state, saying that they were not alowed to deform the car in anyway?

Some quick points:

1. the online Christmas patch also solves most of the tearing issues with the London track. It's great to see you can play just about everything with in-car view now without any slowdown. Impressive! The Corvette and Viper are really awesome to drive in, but of course the F430 is something special too.

2. sixteen cars on track is just awesome, even more so combined with the in-car view. It's also a really good in-car view, as you can still actually see the track rather well. ;) Though a track like London is easier with bumper cam

3. online with 16 players seems to work well, even as a European annoying the Japanese with my lousy connection I still have had some good sixteen player races. This is no doubt in part again thanks to Sony's helpful online setup, which doesn't seem to eschew setting up a few dedicated servers for us. Kudos to Sony for that. Also the ultimate plug-n-play auto-configuration works great. Microsoft, take note! (I have both consoles and wheels for both too ;) )

4. the race options are already very customiseable. They can set up races with any number of restrictions regarding aids (e.g. professional mode only, N3 tires, no assists, track x, car y, etc.). Right now they select races for us on their servers, and are adding new ones every two weeks. While I'm sure this way they are making us beta-test some of the online, it's all for the greater good. ;)

5. The AI is heaps better now. Not perfect (it drives a FF car like an FR one for instance), but better than most console games in that it knows when you are side by side with it even in a corner, and will avoid hitting you as best as it can, even putting a tire in the dirt rather than hit you.

6. The penalty system is coming along nicely. Still some flaws in it, but I like that when someone crashes for instance, they become transparent very quickly. For instance, a car goes off track, then when it comes back on for whatever reason, it will be transparent. I'm one of those oddballs who doesn't like damage and rather sees luck taken out of the equation in racing games (real life would be nice too). Much nicer to lose because you suck then because someone tapped someone in the rear, that car spun out, and took you and someone else along in the first corner, for instance. Right now it's main flaws are that sometimes when someone hits you you still get too much of a penalty (most of the times though it corrects this immediately, which is good) and sometimes you become solid again too close to another car, for instance.

6. G25 support is coming along nicely as well. In the demo you could H-shift, now you can also enable the clutch pedal, which works also to put your car in neutral for drifts for instance. You can't yet do exact clutching with it (half-connect the flywheel for instance), but it's already awesome that it does this much. I'm personally playing still with the DF Pro (will get clutch eventually, just not yet, rather have a second PS3 first for that price :D) but even there I notice that the force feedback has improved in richness and detail. Lovely.

Add all this up - real Ferrari's, lovely cockpits, much better AI, 16 cars on track, online, online with all the previous combined, etc. Superb!

These are just some quick points. Man, I love the F430 time trial. It's brutally hard, with no aids, pro-mode, N3 tires, and it's just really hard to stay on the track, not spin out, not brake too late, lovely. Physics are absolutely awesome in this game.

I've always been one of the bigger fans of the series, but this time the step forwards is absolutely phenomenal, by far the biggest steps in any of its generations so far.

@Miths, the whole cockpit view has made me think this is the way all racers should be in the future ie first person drivers. People talk about realistic damage (which is fair enough, though truly realistic would mean I would likely hardly ever finish a race) and then drive their car around the track from remote control helicopter. The in car view completely changes the nature of the racing IMO.

There's a bit of a be-careful-what-you-wish-for factor with damage. I doubt there are many people who'd like to race for 20 laps then misjudge one corner and crack a wishbone against the armco. Maybe on the PC sims.

PGR4 does fairly decent cosmetic-only damage, which is better than nothing, but it's still a bit dumb when you lock up and slide into a concrete barrier at 50mph, then drive off with slightly scuffed paint.

Rallisport2 on XBox got it just right for me--fantastic body damage, doors and bonnets flying off, lights getting broken in night-races, windows smasheing, but you could take quite a lot of punishment before it started to affect the handling, or mess up your gearbox. There's definitely a balance that would work for GT, minor collisions affecting your aerodynamics a little to affect grip slightly or reduce top speed, heavier crashes making the car pull to one side etc. Kind of pseudo-simmy, which is GT's thing.

Apologies Seacombe, it's just when you make comments like "I have the difficulty set to 115% (damage at 200%)" it all does seem a bit on the geeky side. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that, but it is most certainly on the hardcore side of Sim racing.

The problem the GT series has is that it was so genre defining in the first place it has to go quite a way to distinguish itself from a previous release. Lots of things it was the first game to do very well and many games after it have copied them. It also has to balance change - like all series games - with maintaining the games personality.

I think it is time Polyphony moved on to a different series of games, anything starts to get stale after 4 games. Start from a blank page.

@Miiguel
"DrD: the point is, what will be the price of GT (the Demo, ooops, sorry - Prologue + Full Game) be? Or the purchases are mutualy exclusive?"

The prologue game is obviously a stop gap to keep Sony happy. So if you really want to play soon, or if you want a GT racer without too much of the sometime overwhelming content of a full release get Prologue. If you want the full GT experience then wait. Even with different content no one is forcing you to buy both or indeed - either.

"I think it is time Polyphony moved on to a different series of games, anything starts to get stale after 4 games. Start from a blank page."

You have a point but it does look like there are some new features coming to this, even if they are with the extras that surround the game. Like Burnout Paradise it's better to stick with a name people know, as only a small percentage of people follow gaming like we do. For a lot of the mass market they just walk in a shop or see an advert and go "ah cool a new GT game must be good" and go and buy it. For some it's probably not until they get in the shop that they find out it doesn't work on their PS2 so grab a PS3 with it bundled in.

Edit/ punctuation!!

@Moz
Oh yeah I'm not suggesting they go out and produce a FPS. They could even tag the game with GT in small letters. They just need to try something different as there is not many places a straight circuit racer can go. I wouldn't be surprized if the full GT5 release does have some surprizes along the lines of Game3.0 Sony like to push - but it's tricky to see what beyond what Forza or Test Drive Unlimited have already done.

@Gnort
"If you race against other people you know and trust, maybe."

Well thats the idea. Plenty of communities out there who do follow good rules on these things and play for the enojoyment. It's not that difficult to find some like minded gamers.

yeah. when.

"Oh yeah I'm not suggesting they go out and produce a FPS"

/looks at The Club*

/sniggers


For me, this is probably the reason I will get a PS3, as long as I can use my Driving Force Pro with this 'demo' then I couldn't care less TBH.




* I'm well aware it's not an FPS, but the point stands.

One question I haven't seen answered: how does the handling model compare with the one in Forza 2?

I am looking forward to this being released on the Euro region soon (I hope!!)

@DrD

One thing I don't always understand is why people are always looking for something drastically new, in the really world racing doesn't change drastically every couple of years, people still find playing foot or rugby to be entertaining.

Surely it the same with these incremental style releases, you get improved graphics, better physics, some new tracks new cars based on real world designs. For racing enthusiasts who don't have the money to go racing them selfs this is ideal.

Yes you could just go play GT3 but it doesn't have the latest cars in it. To me racing games fall under the sports sim heading you have some that appeal to sports fans Forza or GT and others that appeal to "gamers" burnout, Ridge racer.
It's just the same as having the Fifa games and Mario striker or sencible soccer.

This constant drive for "true" inovation is starting to drive me nuts, I was looking forward to a fun pick up and play burnout game and what do we get? Burnout paradise that ultimate yawn fest of teedium. Games have matured past the point of constant game play inovation, if the film industry try to inovate as much as games developers seem to be trying to then we have films with people walking about on their hands for no other reason then it being something new and different.

So when the "full" game gets a release, you all will have played this then?

This trend of releasing bite size chunks of a game, are helping to kill the gaming industry imo.

DULL.

Just get Sega Rally instead. At least you'll have fun.

@J.C.
"This trend of releasing bite size chunks of a game, are helping to kill the gaming industry imo."

I think the idea is that it is actually trying to save it. Games cost loads to produce - too much in fact. As an audience we are also very demanding. Just look at the people here claiming something with 5 tracks and 37 cars is a "demo" and should be given away free. Maximizing the revenue that a developer gets from a game is what the industry needs to do to survive.

So I dont have an Xbox360 (as a matter of fact I own a PS3 with a copy of this GT5 prologue) but I don't think it's fair to say that the London track is the best city track in a racing game. It feels somewhat flat at times, some buildings façades aren't modeled in 3d but done with texturing, which I think it's quite lame considering the level of detail the city tracks in PGR4 have. The cars look great nonetheless. But overall I can't help to show my dissappointment with GT5. It's not just about the graphics (which have yet failed to impress me, not real 1080p, slowdown and most tracks are just boring!) but about gameplay. I'm bored of GT, it hasn't evolved in ages. It may be a great simulator but it's just too boring, dull. I can't stand more than 5 mins playing this and, what's even sadder, GT1 for the PSOne felt more fun.

DrDamn: would you like this to become a regular thing, then? Pay 20 quid for MGS4: Prologue 12 months before the full game comes out? And for God of War 3: Prologue?

What about if you could get the full game exclusively 3 months earlier if you bought the prologue? Would you be happy to effectively pay twice to get the game early?

Ultimately it's down to the market to decide, and people will vote with their wallets. But GT4 Prologue must have done well enough for them to pull the same scam again, and personally it's not a precedent I'm fond of.

Similar to what someone said above, surely this is more like FIFA: Road to the World Cup than the potential examples you give. It's not like there's a story or anything.

Think of it as an expansion pack that comes before the main game rather than after it.

@Monkie_king
You don't have to buy them. I'll just buy what I want based on the value I'll get out of it. I've got no problem with developers getting more money out of people to ensure they can continue to produce games.

Smaller games is sometimes all I have time for these days too. So why pay full price for a game if I can pay less for a smaller portion and get my fill there?

Don't look at it as a money making scam, look at it as options.

@monkie_king: in the context of racing games of this magnitute then I quite like the prologue approuch as it can be a good 3 to 4 years between games and having this chance to play the game a year earlier is good as long as it doesn't cost too much. And paying to have 5 tracks and lots of cars is imo better then getting 1 track for free. Though I do feel that as you are paying for what is effectivly an advanced preview then at least 2 of the tracks in prologue should only appear in the final game if you have prologue, or buy a £5 track pack a small while after the main game launches, thus making the prologue games into advance DLC.

While in an ideal world we would pay for this or DLC for the matter the fact remains that making games is costly and we live in a capitalist society. People sit there going oh I don't want to pay for this or that but at the same time you do want it and if you want it enough that you'll pay for it, then people are going to charge you for it. It's a simple fact of business.

@ Xiphos

I'm confused as to exactly what your grudge is about? Do you not enjoy a large amount of cars from which to pick in a racing game?

Xiphos, yeah but 136 of them are Skylines.

On the Prologue thing, I'm all for episodic content, optional DLC, XBLA and alternative distribution channels, but the GT thing is far more cynical. Basically, Polyphony have completely missed their deadlines yet again, Sony desperately needs games for the PS3, and prologue serves to keep the hype machine rolling, and keep people interested in the console. Nothing wrong with that, I'm sure the promise of GT Mobile sold a few PSPs back in the day.

However, since it's basically a stop-gap, a fudge, and an apology, it ought to be free IMO. This isn't a struggling independent game studio we're talking about, it's one of Sony's largest studios, and GT5 is a money-no-object killer app for the hardware. PS3 owners are holding their breath for GT5, and to me it smacks of exploitation that Sony are charging so much to drip-feed this game to people who are desperate enough for games that they'll pay for it twice.

However, this is a free market, if you think it's worth the asking price, then go ahead and pay it. I know some people say XBox Live should be free, and I'm happy to pay for that because it's worth it to me. I think game demos should be free, but then I'm not everybody.

As I said above, I'm confused how this can be considered any more of a demo when compared to GT5 than FIFA:RTWC is when compared to FIFA?

I too am happy to pay for Live and yes demos should be free, thats why I downloaded the GT5P demo - for free - before Christmas. GT5P itself is not a demo, it's a game. Don't want it, don't think it's good value - then don't buy it.

It may be a stop gap of sorts, but it is also indicative of the amount of time games take to develop these days. Many man hours go into each car (less so into each Skyline ;0). Yes Polyphony are poor at getting games out quickly, they still need cash flow regardless of the money hat given to them by Sony.

Quality write up. Definately importing now.

But what's wrong with the licences? Free cars! \o/

"We're not sure how keen we are on the idea of paying for a game demo, and there's no question but that Prologue is a demo - the multiplayer is unfinished, the number of tracks and events is limited, and even the game engine itself is clearly a work in progress to some extent."

Is it GT5? No? Then it's a demo. If you're happy to pay for it, go for it, but don't make excuses for Sony.

Probably should have read a comment or two before posting. Pointless posting now.

GThaterslol

I think you should fuck off with walls of text no one's going to read.

@Monkie_king
And from the self same article ...

"Prologue, however, is a sufficiently chunky - and sufficiently polished - slice of game to merit being released not only as a paid-for download, but also on a Blu-Ray disc. It's a carefully selected tasting menu at a knock-down price, designed to whet our appetites for the full meal - but, as we discovered, also surprisingly worthy on its own merits."

Sorry to labour the point, but you are not being forced to buy this. If you don't want it then don't buy it ffs.

1+

Funny that they think someone will actually read all that shit!

Right, so it is a demo, but it's big enough to merit the price tag. I'm not disputing that, I'm happy to agree to differ. But to me it's like your waiter saying "sorry, your meal is going to be another 20 minutes, but here's some breadsticks in the meantime. That'll be 5 pounds".

You obviously don't go to classy enough restaurants, cos that's exactly what they do. Bread - £2.50 - cheeky gits.

To use your own analogy it is like going to a restaurant and having the option of having a starter (GT5P) whilst waiting for the main course. If that is not to your tastes then just have breadsticks (GT5P Demo - free) or some nibbles at the bar (GTHD - free).

"Is it GT5? No? Then it's a demo."

Eh? Just because it has GT5 in the name? If they took the same game and sold it under a completely different name and denied all associations (when asked) with the GT franchise would it still be a demo?

Well, it was EG's analogy to start with. I can see where you're coming from though, and to be honest if I didn't have a 360 I'd probably cave in and get this to tide me over.

"Is it GT5? No? Then it's a demo. If you're happy to pay for it, go for it, but don't make excuses for Sony. "

There was already an actual real GT5P demo, with one track and 10 cars, which was completely free. GT5P is a large game with a progression structure that you will need to sink dozens of hours into to unlock everything. It's great value for money.

It may not be as big as GT5 but GT5 will be one of the biggest games released in years, in terms of the amount of content.

My GT3 save file had lap records set in 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005, at which point I bought GT4. GT5P is the third Gran Turismo game I've payed money for in 7 years, and I'll be happy to pay for GT5 next year too considering the hundreds of hours I've sunk into them.

It's no worse than going from PGR3 to PGR4 or pretty much any other similar franchise. And if you don't want to buy a discount price game with a ton of excellent content, nobody is forcing you to.

@Headbog
If Forza2 had sold ~1 million in 12 weeks then it was already on the verge of overtaking the 1.01 million Forza 1 sold on the original XBox to 24 million owners.

In fact a 1:10 attach rate before bundles is better than the over all 8:120 which is what GT4 has managed is it not?

headbog: FYI I was saying the same thing about GT4 Prologue back in the day. I think it's really a philosophical point whether you view it as a stand-alone mini-release or a cut-down sop to keep people interested until the real game comes along. If you want it, go ahead, it's not like you're swamped with quality games on the PS3 oh no did I really just say that I'm such an xbot!

edit: in all seriousness, I'm personally more concerned that this represents the thin end of the wedge, and massive uptake will give Sony's beancounters ideas. On the other hand, I suppose maybe it is a legitimate approach to funding long-term development projects, a kind of early-adoption for software. After all, if you're happy to pay, then I guess everyone's a winner (though all these concepts and prologues and demos of prologues inevitably push the full game's release back somewhat). It would be nice if Prologue owners got some kind of discount off the full game though, or some free/exclusive DLC etc.