Gran Turismo 5 Prologue Comments by Rob Fahey

Sorry for being a little slow.

But if I sign into the Japan PS store and download (& buy i presume) GT prologue. Will I have any problems playing online with other euro people when it comes out here? and I'm guessing it's all in japanese?

Anything else I need to consider?

Cheers

"The fatal flaw with the GT games has always been the shockingly poor AI"

I have never got that argument. To me Forza 2 and PGR3/4 are just as bad when it comes to dodgy AI - The AI cars will cheerfully try and ram you off the track as if you didn't exist. I'd take GTs 'boring' AI any day over the psycho drivers in those over two games...

@Headbog ... I take it all back, they were right, you are as bad as Apologie ...

You said ... "Forza 2 took 11 weeks to reach 479k sales in the US, and 422k everywhere else"

Then I said ... "If Forza2 had sold ~1 million in 12 weeks"

You then said ... "Forza 2 was around 200k shy of that figure, and with sales less than 20k a week"

So - do you see what is wrong here? How did they lose 101k sales in one week? A mass return of Forza2?

"If Forza 2 had not flopped, it would be at similar numbers."

Hmmm, not that I want to get involved with the sales figures arguement, but Forza 2 wasn't a flop. :|

Yes it doesn't command the kind of following that the GT series enjoys, but again, that doesn't make it a flop.

GT3 Concept and GT4 Prologue were a total rip-off, and for a while I put this release in the same bag of contempt, but, where the 2 prior GT snacks were completable in a long evening or two, the fact that this offers online multiplayer extends its life pretty much infinitely.

Those who can't see the value of that, dont buy it, but for those who continue to insist this is nothing more than a paid-for demo, it is inescapably obvious that it offers vastly more than a demo would. I never characterised Crackdown as a paid for Halo3 demo, although many, many people used it as such, and paid a good deal more than this is likely to cost.

As for the Forza talk, Polyphony are peerless, and while there are lessons for them to learn to improve the series, none of them are from the direction of Turn10, yet another studio that continues to refine the art of missing the point when copying succesful franchises on Sony platforms.

"@Headbog ... I take it all back, they were right, you are as bad as Apologie ..."

Worse I'd say, as Apologie has the defense of being 'a bit simple' and can't really understand what he's talking about... Headbog is far more insideous. Things are much more pleasant with him on ignore, I'd suggest trying it ;)

Anyway, calling Forza 2 a flop is an assenine thing to say. Nearly 3.3 million sales on a 17 million installed base is anything but poor performance.

Comparing sales figures however, does not inject new life into the very staid GT series, nor does it make the it's-not-a-demo-honestly prologue offering free.

If this weren't a GT game, would anybody care? It sounds oh so incredibly plain and boring. Where are the options that have seemingly become standard with most racing games these days? Instead, we have EG acting like an in-cockpit view is something revolutionary.

Forza made a name for itself from scratch, and I dare say that Forza 1 still has more options packed in with it than GT5.

I have never got that argument. To me Forza 2 and PGR3/4 are just as bad when it comes to dodgy AI - The AI cars will cheerfully try and ram you off the track as if you didn't exist. I'd take GTs 'boring' AI any day over the psycho drivers in those over two games...

I wasn't comparing it to any of those games (I don't have a 360), I was comparing it to a couple of PC racers that have genuinely clever and challenging AI.

"It was most certainly a flop."

It most certainly wasn't a flop.

3 million+ sales for a game is great by any standards, especially for a sim (which typically has less appeal than an arcade racer!). As I said before, Forza doesn't command the same appeal as the GT series, so we wouldn't expect sales to compare.

Many games come no where near matching the sales of the big hitting games in each genre (like the Halo series, and GT series, the GTA series, etc), but it doesn't mean the other games in the genres are flops for failing to reach the heights of the distinguished few.

To claim they are flops for this reason is nonsense. :| If we took it to the extreme, we can compile a large list of games on both the 360 and PS3 which are flops by your definition despite great sales. IMO, this is food for the fanboys and nothing else. ;)

So I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with you.

@Ronuds - too true.

Whereas Forza has become the defining console racing 'sim' (lalalala can't hear you PC owners), GT has fallen uncomfortably between two stables. It's not featured enough to be called a sim, and it's not accessible enough to be called an arcade racer.

More depth and substance please GT, or go the other way and drop the sim pretentions. Perhaps some weapon addons might relieve the tedium?

@headbog
"Around 900k to around 1.1 million = around 200k"

Which is nice - but where did you get the 1.1m figure from?

@Farticus
Don't you start with the demo thing :). I'll give you until Friday to name another "demo" of such quality with similar stats in terms of circuits and cars. There are plenty of other "games" sold full price with a lot less in them.

DrDamn

I'll give you until Friday to name another "demo" that charges over £19 quid for it.

@Farticus
"It's not featured enough to be called a sim, and it's not accessible enough to be called an arcade racer."

The GT series has included both sim-like and arcade modes to suit both stables and a reasonable stab at rallying. It's accessible enough to be the best sell racing series ever.

GT isn't Forza though, it's GT. If you prefer the Forza handling and game features get a 360 and Forza 2. There are a sizable number of people out there who do like the GT gameplay and it would be crazy to suggest they change it too much for GT5. Yes they need to catch up in some areas, but there is an feel for to the game they can't change as the game would no longer be GT.

@BadBoyBoner
"I'll give you until Friday to name another "demo" that charges over £19 quid for it."

What are you coming round Farticus place to get drunk and play videogames too?

GT4Prologue, GT Concept 2001 Tokyo ... :D

Seriously 37 cars, 5 tracks + variations. It's not a full game, but they aren't charging full price.

Well, I'm reading this preview and I'm saying to myself, "what else can you do?" and I'm not finding any answers to those questions. Can you even customize the car engines? Why am I instead hearing about how the car's interiors are now fleshed out, even though that same feature is in just about every racing game these days? I know the appeal of GT's over the years has been the # of cars you can collect and the excellent handling system, but isn't it time we moved beyond just that?

No damage? No paint customization? Day/night cyles? Different weather?

Anything besides going around a track?

Oh yeah...YAY, it looks pretty! And this deserves a pricey demo? My God, you poor PS3-only owners really do have a thin lineup.

Dr.Damn

Sounds like a good night - however perhaps the question should be interpreted to not include all the GT demo's.

Fact is I would love these and think they were great - if they allowed you to get your equivalent money off the full games price - through upgrading (something they could offer online and still make a massive profit).

If they did offer the money off the full price purchase in store I would think they were great - as is - I think it's A) very cheeky and B) a spoiling tactic to hurt other developers of driving games on the PS3.

@BadBoyBoner
The spoiling tactic is not something I'd considered and a good point. Though the Sony platforms are so dominated by GT games it's a wonder anyone else bothers.

It's probably best I forget that I just remembered Forza2 is available for about £20/£25 most places these days too :).

Polyphony have already produced 2 substantial GT demos which were given away free. I don't begrudge them trying to make some money from this.

That london track screeny looks absolutely stunning!

DrDamn

"Seriously 37 cars, 5 tracks + variations. It's not a full game, but they aren't charging full price...."

....whereas Namco managed to charge full price with that kind of line-up for years with the Ridge Racer series! lol

What an awful thing to read through. Not that I really read it.

"6. G25 support is coming along nicely as well. In the demo you could H-shift, now you can also enable the clutch pedal, which works also to put your car in neutral for drifts for instance. You can't yet do exact clutching with it (half-connect the flywheel for instance), but it's already awesome that it does this much."

I understood everything up till "6." :0

"I'll give you until Friday to name another "demo" that charges over £19 quid for it."

And there's the rub my friends, demo's are free, they are charging for it so it's not a demo by definition. It might be a really shit game, it might be terrible value for money, but none of that matters as they are releasing it as a standalone game so therefore IT IS A GAME AS THAT IS THE ONLY REQUIREMENT FOR IT TO BE CLASSED AS SUCH.

Gotta love the way the anti-Sony brigade are spinning these extremely positive Eurogamer impressions. Bit of damage limitation going on I think.

Gran Turismo. Porn for sleepy car geeks.

Now Motorstorm. That's more like it. More of that please, thankyouverymuch.

I adored the first Gran Turismo, but even with GT2 the magic was starting to wear off. GT4 was an improvement over 3, and I did enjoy it to an extent, but it ultimately came down to the same boring on-rails AI racing. If they can improve that, maybe I can find some GT love again.

headbog wrote: "If you'd even remotely bothered to follow this thread rather than jumping on anything remotely negative about your favourite console, you'd realise that 2.2 million of those sales are from a bundle that people bought regardless of what was in the pack."

Firstly headbog, there's no reason to be patronising and insulting. I haven't insulted you and claimed you're this and that, therefore try sticking to the discussion and leave the insults aside please.

Secondly, (as some know here already), I own neither a 360 nor a PS3 (no point explaining why at the moment), but I will own both in future. Currently, I'm happy with my PC and last gen consoleS, therefore don't play the fanboy card please. :)

Sales are sales, it doesn't matter how you dress it up (or dress it down) or where they came from. It doesn't matter whether it comes from bundles, seperate sales, bargains or even from the company forcing gamers to purchase the game at gunpoint (ok, exaggeration). Those are the Forza 2 sales, and so it most certainly isn't a flop.

As I said before, we can play this same game with games for all consoles, breaking down the sales accordingly, comparing them to other games, time scales, expectations etc and find ways to claim almost any game is a flop when measured against the conveniently chosen set of parameters. But that's not the basis of a useful discussion, since it's nothing more than a way of proving what you *want* to believe.

"Except Forza dropped off the top 50 having not even outsold it's previous version, clocking in around 1.08 milion before the bundle appeared. Do you seriously think that a game that previously took over 5 months to reach around a milion suddenly started selling all on it's own merit again?"

As I said, conveniently chosen parameters.

"Disagree all you like, you are being selective."

No, I'm speaking the facts as they are, not modifying the conditions to promote a personal point of view.

I look forward to your response (hopefully it doesn't feature the attitude expressed in your previous reply ;)).

headbog wrote: "One doesnt need to own a particular brand of console to favour one over the other"

And simply stating an opinion that Forza 2 is not a flop does NOT indicate a bias for a particular 'favourite' console, just as I haven't assumed your views means the opposite!

I could just as easily state your apparent anti-Forza pro-GT comments together with your comments elsewhere that the PS3 has much untapped power but the 360 has very little (which is wrong btw), indicates a strong Sony/PS3 bias, but I prefer to stick to the points instead.

"If nobody purchasing an XBOX for the entire chritmas season has a choice but to buy it with those two games, then no, they do not count as proper sales."

Well actually they do, because you cannot assume everyone who purchased the bundle didn't want Forza 2. Like I said, sales are sales, whether you like it or not. It doesn't matter whether you think it's unfair or shouldn't be counted, those are still sales of Forza 2, and therefore the game is not a flop (however much you may want it to be :|).

"Go right ahead - it wont stop the forza series from being a comercial flop."

Just as it won't stop you being wrong. So obviously there's nowhere for this discussion to go other than..."Oh yes it is", "Oh no it's not", "Oh YES it IS", "Oh NO it's NOT", "OH YES IT IS", "OH..." I think you get the point. :)

"If I sold a game for 5 months and sold 5 copies, then gave it away for free ith the Daily Mail for 1 month"

Sorry, but games in bundles are not "given away free", even if technically it may seem that way sometimes. So your arguement ends there. But as I said, we could go round and round in circles, saying if this and if that, but it wouldn't change our opinions just as it doesn't change the sales figures for Forza 2.

So whether you think it was a commercial flop or not doesn't actually matter (except as a point of discussion on a forum). ;)

Dear headbog,

The only flops around here are the Sony PSP and PS3

Yours truly,

The World

:DDDDD

"Yes, it does seem as if it is a 'yes it is, oh no it isnt' argument, but you REALLY are streting it. Do you HONESTLY beleive that, 5 months after the game was out and sold less than 1.1 million, it suddenly saw millions more people clamouring to play it?"

And can't you see that since in 5 months Forza 2 on the 360 already matched/exceeded the TOTAL sales for Forza on the XBox (which sold just over a million!), then that hardly makes it a flop!

A game which has sold 1 million is not a flop however much you may want to convince yourself (unless the developement was so costly that it fails to make a profit). We can all quote reasons why we think a game should have or could have sold more, but at worse that only makes the sales for the game *disappointing*, it doesn't automatically make the game a commercial flop.

So we can all speculate all day on how many sales Forza 2 would have had without the bundles, but if 'only' selling 1 million makes it a flop, then there are many high profile games for both the 360 and PS3 which are flops according to you.

Lovely2cu wrote: "The only flops around here are the Sony PSP and PS3"

Again, you're viewing a 'flop' in the same way as headbog, and it's wrong. The PSP and PS3 are not flops just because their sales are below certain people's expectations. :|

"The PSP and PS3 are not flops just because their sales are below certain people's expectations."

Um, yes they are. The PSP was meant to become a new iPod style hi-tech gadget phenomenon, to rival and overtake Nintendo handhelds. It failed

The PS3 was meant to be this sooper dooper console/computer, the ultimate in all-round digital entertainment, the world's premier media hub. It's anything but.

Yes, both have flopped and badly.

Going by headbogs logic, every single PS3 game (and indeed the PS3 console itself) are all total flops.

Weird, I actually agree with him!

"However, I am merely repeating myself to those that refuse to see that Forza 2 did not do any better than it's predecessor, which did badly for a game with it's profile and positioning."

And again you're ignoring the facts.

Forza was released on the XBox in May 2005! Like to guess what the XBox userbase was at that time? It was about 20 million!

http://journal.pcvsconsole.com/?thread=8...

In total, Forza sold just over 1 million on the XBox.

Forza 2 was released on the 360 at a time when the 360 userbase was about HALF that of the XBox, and yet it surpassed the sales of Forza in 5 months.

So how is that not doing better than it's predecessor? :)

love2cu wrote: "Um, yes they are. The PSP was meant to become a new iPod style hi-tech gadget phenomenon, to rival and overtake Nintendo handhelds. It failed"

Failure to take the number one spot, whether it's games or consoles, does not make it a flop!

"The PS3 was meant to be this sooper dooper console/computer, the ultimate in all-round digital entertainment, the world's premier media hub. It's anything but."

Doesn't matter what you think of it, despite it's expense, it has sold at a similar rate to the 360 since launch. It is disappointing given the sales of the previous Playstation consoles? Yes? Is it a flop? No.

"Let this discussion end before you make a mockery of yourself. "

I think we just passed through the irony event horizon........

@Yaz

"Doesn't matter what you think of it, despite it's expense, it has sold at a similar rate to the 360 since launch. It is disappointing given the sales of the previous Playstation consoles? Yes? Is it a flop? No."

I dunno man, the PS2 was kinda like Michael Jackson in the 80's (i.e. the bollocks). The PS3 is kinda like Michael Jackson now (i.e. just bollocks). My point is, I think if you fall (far) behind what you've achieved in the past (and what is now expected of you) it does kinda put you in the 'bit of a flop' camp.

"Yaz: As I pointed out, GT3 did considerably better, and ended up growing its sales with the PS2 - whereas Forza simply stopped selling once it had reached the same audience it had with the XBOX version."

GT is not more relevent than the DS is to calling the PSP a success or flop!

Forza 2 continued to sell and you can'' exclude the bundles. Unless you can extrapolate the number of gamers who bought a bundle with Forza 2 but didn't actually want the game, then it's just pointless guesswork on your part.

"Most games that are considered successes are selling millions in a few weeks, not months."

Nonsense, it depends on the game, whether it's from a high selling series, the size of the userbase at the time, hype and advertising.

If a game sells well and makes a decent profit, and most important of all - gamers enjoy playing it, then it's a success afaik.

"Technically speaking, everything but the Wii and DS has been a total flop"

I disagree. But then you know that already. :)

"The PS3 flopped to start with, but since the latter part of the year, things have picked up the pace - culminating with Blu-Ray being pretty much the trojan horse that Sony hoped it would be."

But surely headbog, Bluray is a flop, right? I mean it's only done so well because it's packed in with the PS3, right? So it must be a flop and Bluray sales aren't really better than HD-DVD because you get one 'free' when you buy a PS3, right?

headbog wrote: "You live in cloud cukoo land mate. Keep that optimism going."

If you want to believe that. Fine. :)

"Meanwhile anyone with half a brain can see Forza hasnt done nearly that well."

If you think it hasn't done as well as YOU expect, that's your opinion, but that doesn't make it a flop.

Kryon wrote: "But surely headbog, Bluray is a flop, right? I mean it's only done so well because it's packed in with the PS3, right? So it must be a flop and Bluray sales aren't really better than HD-DVD because you get one 'free' when you buy a PS3, right?"

:-D


EDIT: Anyway, thanks for the discussion guys, it was a great distraction from some very boring work I'm in the middle of. Ah well, no rest for the wicked...it's back to work for me. Cya. :)

Kryon wrote: "But surely headbog, Bluray is a flop, right? I mean it's only done so well because it's packed in with the PS3, right? So it must be a flop and Bluray sales aren't really better than HD-DVD because you get one 'free' when you buy a PS3, right?"

Haha, answer that headbog! If Forza 2 is such a failure for having great pack-in sales, I wonder what that makes Blu-Ray? Jebus, the ratio of standalone BR player to DVD player sales must be absolutely pitiful! :DDD

Is "apples and oranges" the new net slang for " I've just been pwned" ?

'Bluray sales aren't really better than HD-DVD because you get one 'free' when you buy a PS3, right?'

Except that pack-ins arent included in Nielsen sales data...

Kryon not liking a PS3-only game...unbelievable eh?

Perhaps we should annoint him as Bill Gates' successor!

"Is "apples and oranges" the new net slang for " I've just been pwned" ?"

It would seem so

Blu-Ray may now be beating HD-DVD but it is no where near the Trojan Horse than Sony hoped for. Firstly the bulk of Blu Ray players are PS3's and statistics show that a very large number of PS3 owners are totally unaware that the PS3 actually plays Blu Rays. Not impressive.

Secondly, whether Blu Ray or HD-DVD both are getting absolutely blown away by old DVD, which is plenty good enough for the vast majority of people. Blu Ray (or HD DVD) will need an absolutely staggering turn around if it is to dislodge old style DVD before we head into digital distribution. And thus far it is not looking at all likely. Particularly when you can buy a standard DVD for £5 or less in the sales and upscaled it looks plenty good enough on a standard sized LCD TV. And when Blu Rays, in shops, which is where the casual buyer still buys their movies from, Blu Ray DVDs cost well over £20.

I would buy a ps3 just for this. Im sure many others who havnt invested in next gen will also.

question for those of you currently playing this:

Has the "GT bounce" been removed? Where you overtake a car on the inside of a tight corner, slam into them, and "bounce" off at full speed?

No doubt the graphics are mind-melting, and the replay views and smooth camerawork are tops. I've been turned off of GT since Forza strictly because of the "bounce" and other unrealistic driving physics. I can respect not wanting to show damage (I like it, but I can appreciate all pretty cars staying pretty), but when somebody clips my rear quarter panel at 150+ knh, then we should both go flying -- the videos I've seen on the InterTubes aren't showing this kind of "sim" driving -- and if it's just gorgeous bumper cars then I can hold off on buying the PS3.

**Yes, I'm a 360 fan. Not speaking ill of the the game because of that -- I genuinely get infuriated at the not-even-close-to-reality driving physics. I'm not looking for "total sim" realism, but something that handles more realistically than PGR or the like . . . which GT hasn't done for a long time. Give me those graphics and something even remotely approximating real driving, and Sony's sold a console.**

busboy33 wrote: "Has the "GT bounce" been removed? Where you overtake a car on the inside of a tight corner, slam into them, and "bounce" off at full speed?"

Unfortunately not, the "GT bounce" remains the same. :(

http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/16810

Thanks Yaz

Yah . . . .no.

for those wondering what I mean by "GT bounce", 5:05 into Yaz's link -- "real driving simulation" my left testicle.

Here's an example of the "bumpercar" physics:
http://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&new...
at 1:09 into the video. The player does a PIT manuever at 250+kmh -- neither car moves.
an example of what should happen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g4CIYR7lIk

like I said -- I'm not looking for complete realism, but for pete's sake! I'm a graphics whore, but I think I'll hold onto my $500 for now.