Gran Turismo 5 Prologue

By Rob Fahey Published 8 January, 2008

Small but perfectly formed.

Nobody does demos quite like Polyphony Digital. There are times, in fact, when it feels like Sony's celebrated racing studio has given up on making games entirely in favour of turning out an endless series of demos - drawn in, perhaps, by the allure of offering up games in bite-sized chunks rather than preparing three-course feasts.

Well, perhaps not. Gran Turismo 5, we're assured, is still on its way, and Polyphony would prefer if we viewed the string of content they've drip-fed onto PlayStation Network as tasters, rather than evidence of an extraordinary demo-fetish. Gran Turismo HD was just a proof of concept. Then there are the curiously recursive releases which appeared late last year, demos of a demo, morsels of content extracted from GT5 Prologue - itself a mere demonstration of work in progress.

Prologue, however, is a sufficiently chunky - and sufficiently polished - slice of game to merit being released not only as a paid-for download, but also on a Blu-Ray disc. It's a carefully selected tasting menu at a knock-down price, designed to whet our appetites for the full meal - but, as we discovered, also surprisingly worthy on its own merits.

A La Carte

'Gran Turismo 5 Prologue' Screenshot 1

My Page is GT5's main menu - and also an impressive launchpad for tons of information and content for petrolheads.

Arguably the most remarkable thing about the game is that we're not bursting with excitement to tell you about the graphics. That's not to say that the visuals are not extraordinary, beautiful and detailed - they are all of those things, and it is no exaggeration to say that a new high watermark has been set for racing game graphics. However, the thing we're most enthralled by is not GT5's visuals, but rather, the potential it displays in other departments.

That potential is visible right from the outset, with the home screen of the game - which replaces the traditional main menu with a rather more dynamic dashboard, topped up with info pulled down from the network. Alongside the standard racing options, there are live weather reports from top race locations around the world, a calendar of upcoming racing events, news feeds from car manufacturers, and a high-definition motorsports video service called GT.tv.

As well as the feeds on My Page (as the menu is described in the game - hinting at plans for a lot more customisation in the final version), the concept of grabbing data off the network continues right throughout the game. So, for instance, you can opt to watch a guide to each course, a high-def video tour of the track, its surroundings and its history. It's exactly the kind of detail that you might expect from the car nuts at Polyphony, and the fact that it's taken off the network hints at plan for plenty more such content down the line - although hopefully by then the game will be able to download clips in the background, a missing feature in Prologue which feels like an incredibly basic and silly oversight.

'Gran Turismo 5 Prologue' Screenshot 2

As you'd expect, the cars look stunning. Now they look stunning on the inside, too - the attention to detail on the interiors is astonishing.

Whether you're excited about that kind of feature or not, of course, depends entirely on what sort of gamer you are. Plenty of people will roll their eyes and click straight through to the racing - which is fine - but we suspect that plenty of others will love the effort that has gone into making this into the full monty for any fan of motorsports. The potential for online content to actually influence the game is huge, too; if you're downloading the weather conditions for racetracks, for example, it's only a small step to being able to play on those tracks in the exact weather they're experiencing right now, or perhaps the weather they had for a real-life race last week, or a famous race a few years ago. Such features are hypothetical - but Prologue makes it very clear that this is the road Polyphony's thinking is travelling down.

For the eye-rollers, though, rest assured - Gran Turismo 5 isn't taking an age to arrive because they're tweaking the menu screens. Prologue also gives a clear look at how the driving experience is being tweaked for GT5, and we're not just talking about a tantalising glimpse - the amount of content in the game is actually pretty hefty. It's got five courses, each with two alternate layouts, and seemingly chosen deliberately to showcase as many different driving styles as possible - and 37 cars, a number that puts some full games to shame.

Test Tracks

'Gran Turismo 5 Prologue' Screenshot 3

Lovingly animated sequences featuring your pit engineers checking over the car play before the race starts. It's just like watching it on telly!

While you'll have to spend a lot of time playing to unlock all 37 cars - you start with just about enough credits to buy a decent Honda for your garage, and you'll be finishing a lot of race events before you're moneyed enough to splash out on a shiny Ferrari - all of the courses are unlocked from the moment you start playing Prologue. Suzuka Circuit (which was in the demo of Prologue, but is substantially brushed up in this version) and Fuji Speedway are present and correct, as is the GT5 version of the Eiger Nordwand course seen in Gran Turismo HD - a clear indicator of just how far GT's technology has come since then, with vastly improved lighting, piles more detail on the trackside and a gorgeous lick of pixel-paint on the scenery.

Arguably the most interesting courses, though, are the Daytona Speedway - a dull oval track which provides an excellent demonstration of the game's physics, of which more in a moment - and the London course, a twisty and occasionally nigh-on photorealistic dash around the famous landmarks near Trafalgar Square, Piccadilly Circus and Shaftesbury Avenue.

London is a superb demonstration of GT5's beautiful lighting, thanks to its tall buildings and narrow streets, and the level of detail in the buildings by the track is astonishing - even the poles and drapes of scaffolding on buildings which were being renovated when the track was created are lovingly modelled. On the downside, this track does have some nasty screen-tearing - but Polyphony seems to be gradually fixing this on other tracks (Suzuka Circuit had horrible tearing in the original demo, which is gone now), so hopefully it'll be a thing of the past in GT5 proper.

These two courses couldn't be more different. London is all about hair-raising slides through tight corners, giving the game a chance to show off just how precise its control system is - each car is solid and realistic to handle, and each one has a unique driving feel. Even controlling it with a pad, you get a strong feeling for the balance and weight of the car; for real car fans, of course, a steering wheel will be the only option.

Daytona, meanwhile, is a showcase for the game's newfound ability to handle 16 cars on the track at once - and for the superbly realistic drafting system, which allows you to speed up in the slipstreams of your rivals by listening for distinct audio cues in the flow of the wind across your vehicle. Yes, they've accurately modelled the wind noise across the bodywork. Come to that, Polyphony has also accurately modelled the engine noise of each vehicle, and the acoustics change depending on which view you're using.

Speaking of views, there's also a new in-car view, which features a perfectly realistic model of the interior of each car, which you can look around while you drive. By the time we were playing around with this feature, we confess that we felt that the obsession with detail had become a bit ridiculous - but we don't doubt that more diehard GT fans than we will adore this kind of extraordinary demonstration of vehicle worship.

One detail we're not sad to see the back of, though, is licences - long the bane of any more casual driving fan who dared cross the threshold of Polyphony's domain. We don't know if they'll return in GT5 proper, but in Prologue, you can load the game and go right into one of the arcade modes or an Event Race challenge (there's a nice selection of these, each with an interesting and challenging set of objectives) without having to successfully stop a car that handles like an angry rhino on a square the size of a paperback book first. Hurrah!

Prototype Engine

'Gran Turismo 5 Prologue' Screenshot 4

The Daytona course is a long, tilted curve - not very interesting, but a good demonstration of GT5's enhanced physics and handling.

If one failing of GT seems to have disappeared (albeit perhaps not for good) in Prologue, others do remain. Our biggest criticism of GT5 Prologue has to be that the cars are still, after all these years, absolutely invincible - coming away from the most appalling prangs without the slightest scratch to their gorgeously curvaceous and realistic bodywork.

At this stage, GT's stubborn refusal to contemplate a damage system is starting to feel ridiculous. Given the amount of work that has been put into creating the stunning graphics and realistic physics and handling, having cars that bounce off one another without even scraping their paintwork is downright odd. Of course, there are plenty of GT fans who would argue that we're missing the point - if you want a game about crashing, there are plenty of them about. GT is a game about racing.

We'd argue in response that crashing, bumping and grinding is an integral part of racing, and the whole discussion would go in circles until we were forced to admit that we only watch F1 for the crashes and then someone would mention Ayrton Senna and accuse us of being horrible human beings and it would all go a bit wrong. Anyway, the point remains - it's silly that in the most realistic driving game we've ever seen, the cars are invincible. Silly silly silly.

One of the other big appeals of Prologue - and of GT5 itself - is online play. This has long been the holy grail for Gran Turismo, and it's functionality with which Polyphony seems to have struggled for some time. Indeed, it didn't quite make it in Prologue; it wasn't until Christmas Day that it was enabled in a patch for the game, released over the network in Japan.

Sadly, as a result, we haven't been able to get multiplayer working on our test PS3. We can tell you that the game supports up to 16 players online, and that a variety of events (such as races with specific cars and configurations, or online time-trial contests) are available. We also know that Prologue's online functions are rough and ready in some regards, as befits a demo; it's got basic matchmaking functions, but no way of playing against people on your friends list or using in-race chat.

'Gran Turismo 5 Prologue' Screenshot 5

It's the London track that really shines, though - it's a bit limited in scope, but it's the best looking city track we've ever seen in a racing game.

Obviously, this is work in progress (like everything in Prologue) - the My Page screen boasts a section for integration with the yet to be launched PlayStation Home, which strongly suggests that GT5 will have far more advanced multiplayer at some point in future. For now, reports from Japan suggest a solid, lag-free racing experience, but we may have to wait for a European launch for Prologue to give you first-hand details on that. The real news here, of course, is that GT multiplayer is emerging from the mists of vapourware - at last.

We're not sure how keen we are on the idea of paying for a game demo, and there's no question but that Prologue is a demo - the multiplayer is unfinished, the number of tracks and events is limited, and even the game engine itself is clearly a work in progress to some extent. However, we're actually pretty impressed with Prologue. The amount of content you get for your 4500 Yen (about 21 quid) is enough to keep you going for quite a while, and it's not so much a glimpse of the upcoming GT5 as a long, hard look.

For fans of Gran Turismo, then, it's well worth looking forward to the arrival of GT5 Prologue in Europe - and we suspect that for a lot of PS3 owners, this kind of graphical tour de force is exactly what they were hoping for when they bought their console. Whether it can achieve its goal of becoming not only the game, but the media centre of choice for motorsports fans is tough to say at this early stage - but it's clear that Polyphony's next opus is going to be, yet again, a stunning showcase for Sony's hardware, and a bloody good racing game to boot. Look out for Prologue in Europe in the coming months, with any luck - and for GT5, er, some time later.

Picture of Rob.

About Rob Fahey

Rob Fahey is a former editor of GamesIndustry.biz who spent several years living in Japan and probably still has a mint condition Dreamcast Samba de Amigo set.

Read more articles from Rob by visiting the Rob Fahey archive page.

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Comments (149) Latest comment 4 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • ChrisOTR #1 4 years ago

    Nice write up, I've lost interest in GT over the years though, personally... it's so..... po-faced.
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 11:30

  • philw #2 4 years ago

    Blimey that London track really does look rather nice.

  • Steroyd #3 4 years ago

    :bow: :bow:

  • Goffee #4 4 years ago

    Please remember to finish GT PSP during your lunch break guys!

  • andijames #5 4 years ago

    Didn't i hear on the grapevine not so long ago that they are adding in a damage engine but only into the finished game?

  • Tomo #6 4 years ago

    Meh.

  • steoc4 #7 4 years ago

    I picked up the Japanese version of this and played it loads over Christmas. Very very impressed with it.

  • Dizzy #8 4 years ago

    >and the level of detail in the buildings by the track is astonishing

    Yeah but why so many flat sprites for roadside detail? I prefer not to have any extras... flat stuff just breaks the illusion.

  • SteveB #9 4 years ago

    I think Forza has surpassed this series now in every way apart from the graphics.

  • BadBoyBonner #10 4 years ago

    I think ONLY the GT driving series of games could (and has/will) get away with launching a work in progress and charging for it.

    No doubt Nintendo could have done it several times over with most of their top rated franchise games - but they don't - as they don't want to come across as money grabbing twats.

    Plus releasing it on PS3 like this stifles competition and/or forces everyone elese to try a similar release schedule.

    Fact is Polyphony just need to either work harder or (the more likely) employ more staff to get a faster turnaround for their products.



  • onyxbox #11 4 years ago

    but it's not tru 1080p


    sorry :-D I thought I'd try and get in there before some idiot does.

    :-D

  • Darren #12 4 years ago

    Uh-oh... screen tearing... :?

    It's a bit disappointing to see it on the PS3 version of GT5 when the PS2 versions ran at a smooth 60 fps with none whatsoever albeit at standard definition. I did notice some tearing in the free GT HD demo (usually at the first corner) and the Japanese GT5 Prologue demo but then I was running the game at 1080p. Hopefully, dropping the resolution to 720p will fix it because nothing spoils immersion for me more than screen tearing. Yuck!

  • xAx #13 4 years ago

    you're horrible human beings :(

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #14 4 years ago

    Snore.

  • niz #15 4 years ago

    "having cars that bounce off one another without even scraping their paintwork is downright odd. "

    It's odd, but I'm actually hoping that the online modes have the typical GT collision physics meaning that it takes a really heavy hit to cause a spin. No, I'm not dirty racer but LOTS of people are. Damage is another thing altogether, I can live without it.

    PGR4 for example is rubbish online because the cars spin from the smallest contact, intentional or not. Good, clean close racing is impossible because everybody will end up spinning sooner or later. The only way to enjoy the game is to switch the collisions OFF totally. Sadly that isn't possible in the matchmaking street races.

    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 11:57

  • optimusprym8 #16 4 years ago

    whilst I should be able to find out for myself this evening, assuming Mr Postie has popped it through the door today, what about the AI? One thing that really annoys me about GT still is the utterly retarded AI of the other drivers. Are they still on-rails (with the occasional cock-up in front of you to appear more clever) and ram into you if you brake in-front of them? Forza2 showed how AI should be done.

  • Shinji #17 4 years ago

    Darren - I think the screen tearing thing is a work in progress. It's been improved significantly from the Prologue demo, so it's obviously something Polyphony are aware of and trying to fix - unlike many other developers who seem to just treat it as being an acceptable trade-off for pretty next-gen graphics. (Which it isn't - it's one of the nastiest, ugliest and most experience-breaking faults you can find in a game's visuals.)

  • DrDamn #18 4 years ago

    > No doubt Nintendo could have done it several times over
    > with most of their top rated franchise games - but they don't -
    > as they don't want to come across as money grabbing twats.

    *Cough* Pokemon *Cough*

  • Kenshin001 #19 4 years ago

    Finally got the Ferrari 599 last night. I've played online and noticed in a game cars kind of jumping at the start, like some odd glitch. All good fun though, did a supercar race on the Daytona track and cars were flying off left, right and centre. The in car mode gives an impressive sense of speed. Found the London track a bit dark but it's mad to race. The AI can be quite aggressive too which had me cursing at the TV because the player gets penalised for ramming or blocking but the AI cars apparently can do it without consequences.

  • Pike #20 4 years ago

    "...it's silly that in the most realistic driving game we've ever seen, the cars are invincible."

    Err.. As far as I know GTR 2,and Grand Prix Legends both feature solid damage models. I also fail to see what those sims have to do with some console arcade racer.
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 12:07

  • monkie_king #21 4 years ago

    PGR4 has a bunch of different courses around Westminster, about 10 or so. Not really sure what the question is.

    Has the gameplay fundamentally changed at all since the Eiger demo? I was really keen to play that until I actually got the controller in my hand, and it was the same old dull experience Polyphony has been peddling us since 1997. I think the lack of rumble really hurt too, to be fair.

    Still, look how shiny!
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 12:04

  • BadBoyBonner #22 4 years ago

    Best looking driving game by some margin - has bugger all to do with it being on PS3 but the fact the Polyphony are STILL seemingly in a league of their own when it comes to realistic colouring and lighting.

    Arguably most people can match their modeling; it then comes down to the question of who can maintain that standard with the most efficient meshes - which I don't know - but does make me think of the Bizarre interview in EDGE where MSR was being developed on Dreamcast and kept slowing down horribly in a couple of places on the track and they could not understand why - then realised one of the artists hand modeled a bench that was used with a ridiculous amount of polygons.

    It looks so beautiful does this game that the lack of anti-aliasing seems an almost criminal over sight - as without it, it still looks the best driving game ever - but with it it would look a world away from it's nearest rival.
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 12:20

  • tonynibbles #23 4 years ago

    Perfectionism ftw.

  • gizmo #24 4 years ago

    What about possibly the most important aspect, the AI?

    Are we still racing against a procession of invincible cars following an invisible line?

    If so, time to move on.

  • secombe #25 4 years ago

    The fatal flaw with the GT games has always been the shockingly poor AI, enough to make it a Time Trial only game (although it has to be said, a very good Time Trial only game), no mention of that here in the preview though...? Sure it's less important with online play now, but it's got to be a consideration.

    Off the top of my head, AI automatically smashes into you if you brake too hard into a corner, AI smashes into you if you are stopped in the middle of the track for some reason, AI has a wobbly if you aren't on the racing line (to avoid them smashing into you) then completely side-swipes you if you go anywhere near the racing line again. I swear it doesn't actually recognise that you are on the track at all.

    If a relatively small developer like Simbin can create brilliant AI drivers then I can't see why PD can't, especially as they have spent years developing these games. Seeing an Elise outbrake itself going into a corner and then finally being able to get past after 3 laps of battling is just plain magical, I get the feeling GT will not even come close to that. Even stopping cars ploughing into you if you stop in the middle of the circuit would be a nice start, show us they have a bit of intelligence.

    How it gets the title of 'the most advanced driving sim' I will never know, apart from looking nice and having lots of cars it fails in absolutely every other area compared to GTR2, for a start.
    Edited by 2 at 08/01/08 @ 12:15

  • monkie_king #26 4 years ago

    secombe: presumably something has changed now they're upto 16 cars on track. Though the worrying conclusion might be they've spent the extra CPU on more drivers instead of better drivers.

    The lack of damage only exacerbates the problems of the brainless on-rails shunt-into-you-obliviously AI in the PS1 and PS2 games.

  • TurboBailey #27 4 years ago

    Nice article.

    I have to say im a bit of a GT geek. I main reason i own a PS3 is for GT5. When that comes out - bang goes the social life.

    Laterz

  • monkie_king #28 4 years ago

    Shouldn't you have waited until, you know, it was out? Could save a bit of money that way too.

  • PCRist #29 4 years ago

    I am just not excited by this, and I was once hooked on Gran Turismo 3.

    I mean, sure, it looks fantastic, but the price of that beauty is high, and the rewards best reaped in screenshots, and not gameplay, where the slightest collision with a barrier renders the appearence comical, like a bumper car going at 150mph. Polyphony specialise too much for my liking. Of course, for some they specialise in the important parts, and I hope such people thoroughly enjoy the game.

  • Kryon #30 4 years ago

    Gran Turismeh is one of the most boring racers ever made, meh.

  • StarchildHypocrethes #31 4 years ago

    This looks sexy.

    The full game is one of the few things that might convince me to invest in a PS3.

  • secombe #32 4 years ago

    thank fuck it's not like those PC anal-fests though. Proper driving simulation sucks any element of enjoyment out of a game. Fine for driving nerds with glasses too thick to get a drivers license, but I'll stick with actual gameplay thanks.

    I was playing GTR2 (an 'anal-fest') just yesterday and I battled with a car over 4 or 5 laps before finally squeezing through on a slow corner. The sense of achievement of just overtaking a single car was immense, how is that not 'gameplay'? And all this on a track that wasn't even originally in the game (a user created one, so shows how clever the AI really is). Beats being shunted around by AI every single time.

    I want to like GT (which is why I'm here, trying to get some thoughts on the AI) as it does a few things so well, but the actual driving has always let it down a lot, which is kind of important.
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 12:21

  • UncleLou #33 4 years ago

    thank fuck it's not like those PC anal-fests though. Proper driving simulation sucks any element of enjoyment out of a game. Fine for driving nerds with glasses too thick to get a drivers license, but I'll stick with actual gameplay thanks.


    Except that Simbin's games not only have a million options how accurate you want them to be as a sim, they also have a ton more "gameplay" due to the fact that they're all about racing aginst AI.

    As much as I love Gran Turismo (and will end up buying a PS3 for it), it really is a lot more anal - meditative time trial driving and car collecting, so you're basically talking bullshit. :p
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 12:22

  • Shinji #34 4 years ago

    The AI is definitely better, in that it's no longer just following an invisible line on the track - it reacts to what you're doing in a much more dynamic and intelligent way. That said, it's very obviously a work in progress - another poster described it as being "aggressive", and while that's one way of putting it, I'm not sure that some of the weird ramming behaviour is actually intentional.

    AI has always definitely been a black hole for GT - I think Prologue shows that they're actually trying to fix it this time, but decent AI for the other drivers is still in its infancy to some extent. Of course, the real fix for bad AI is obvious; race against other people, and that's the single biggest piece of progress in this game.

  • monkie_king #35 4 years ago

    frod: totally agree, but that's actually not one of GT's strongest points these days. I wouldn't say PGR4 is the perfect driving game by any means, but it's really refreshing to have different gameplay types to mix things up, after the ceaseless grind of the GT series.

    Fingers crossed Polyphony have woken up and actually changed the gameplay after all these years, rather than just the graphics. Asking 21 quid for a demo to find out is a disgrace though.

    I guess Sony need something tangible to keep people buying PS3s though. "Look how amazing this game is! It'll actually be out one day, too!"

  • secombe #36 4 years ago

    As much as I love Gran Turismo (and will end up buying a PS3 for it), it really is a lot more anal - meditative time trial driving and car collecting, so you're basically talking bullshit. :p

    Precisely, GTR2 is actually about the driving, how is that anal?! It's also perfectly balanced for any level of user, I have the difficulty set to 115% (damage at 200%) which is just a tiny bit too good for me to cope with, that makes it so much fun as it's an achievement to work through the grid and a real buzz when you finally pass a certain car.

  • captainrentboy #37 4 years ago

    It looks undeniably sweet, and I'm sure it'll be like a gift straight from the hands of God for the GT fans out there when it finally gets released.
    But nothing plays more like a total snorefest for me than the GT series of games, they're just soooo bloody dull. It's definitely one for the car nuts out there.

  • miiiguel #38 4 years ago

    headbog, you do get a kick in writting "anything MS" and "flop" in the same phrase. Where the heck did you get that Forza 2 "flopped" ?

    on-topic: it looks pretty good. not sure if I agree with the "pay for a demo" thingy, though.

    I never enjoyed these kinda game though. PGR rock my boat, I dislike Forza 2(which apart form US budles flopped, so I'm happy...), too.
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 12:33

  • DrDamn #39 4 years ago

    Seacombe, you appear to be under the impression that your comments are helping the case for GTR2. :).

  • Pike #40 4 years ago

    What is wrong with Secombe's comment? That he enjoys diffculty that is perfectly tuned to his skill level? That he prefers driving games to be more about racing and less about resembling Pokemon?

  • miiiguel #41 4 years ago

    I bet you'll get car selection in 2D in a patch down the road...

  • DrDamn #42 4 years ago

    Where are you lot getting demos with 5 courses (each with 2 alternate layouts) and 37 cars exactly? It's budget priced. Don't fancy it, don't buy it.

    Forza 2 a flop? 3m+ in sales. Some from pack-ins, but a pack-in designed to help sales. That Wii Sports eh? What a flop that was in the US and Europe - take out pack-in sales and it sold bugger all ...

  • monkie_king #43 4 years ago

    DrDamn, fun is where you find it, I reckon. And close racing is always good for adreneline-fueled sweaty-hands tense racing. That's one of the odd things about GT though, the freedom of vehicle choice and modification sometimes makes it hard to find a good fair race, where you don't either totally dominate, or get annihalated because you brought the wrong car. I know the later GTs made steps toward fixing that with the single-make and unmodified challenges etc., but you can still grind most of the game by just saving up and slapping massive turbos on everything.

  • secombe #44 4 years ago

    Seacombe, you appear to be under the impression that your comments are helping the case for GTR2. :)

    I don't need to offer a case for GTR2, my point is that why can't PD just sort out the AI? They've had a decade to do it but appear to just concentrate on nice visuals and buying as many car licences as possible. If a small developer can get it almost spot-on within 2 releases, what the hell are PD doing?

    I was under the impression people bought racing games to erm, race. Strange thought, I know.

  • pjmaybe #45 4 years ago

    London Track?

    /asplodes

    Peej

  • steoc4 #46 4 years ago

    Heh, an overwhelmingly positive preview followed by a thread of almost entirely negative comments about features people haven't tried.

    Having played the game lots I can say the AI is great to race against. It doesn't cope well with the player acting weird - if you stop on the racing line they'll just drive through you - but when you're racing properly they give up quite a fight and when you're in a pack of cars you can clearly see drivers jostling for position, drafting eachother, trying to outbreak eachother, sometimes running off road.

    You really have to work hard to get past cars too - there may be no damage but there is a penalty system which temporarily slows you down for hitting cars or walls and is very effective at making you race properly.

    Combine that with the best graphics I've seen in a game, and the perfect car handling I'm used to from Polyphony, and you have a fantastic game.

  • miiiguel #47 4 years ago

    DrD: the point is, what will be the price of GT (the Demo, ooops, sorry - Prologue + Full Game) be ?
    Or the purchases are mutualy exclusive ?

  • monkie_king #48 4 years ago

    GT's mutated into a kind of Matchbox car collection game though, with the option to drive them round tracks sometimes. It's an odd beast.

  • secombe #49 4 years ago

    if you stop on the racing line they'll just drive through you

    Surely that points to the AI fundamentally being 'on-rails'? If they haven't managed to correct this after 10 years of purely developing the same game over and over it has to be a worry.

  • steoc4 #50 4 years ago

    "Surely that points to the AI fundamentally being 'on-rails'? If they haven't managed to correct this after 10 years of purely developing the same game over and over it has to be a worry."

    It points to the AI not being perfect at looking at what the player is doing. It's not on rails. I've played the game and I know it's not on rails. It's clear they've written the AI to assume the player will drive properly, and when you do they race with you properly.

    So it's limited, but it definitely isn't on rails and it makes for great racing.

  • McLovin85 #51 4 years ago

    i think i just came...

  • Mr_Brown #52 4 years ago

    I agree, I think Forza has suppassed this game. Forza 2 has built an incredible community, with the auction house, paint jobs and tuning. Probably not set the world alight with sales, but without these additions I don't see me ever going back to the GT series now.

  • Miths #53 4 years ago

    "'if you stop on the racing line they'll just drive through you'

    Surely that points to the AI fundamentally being 'on-rails'? If they haven't managed to correct this after 10 years of purely developing the same game over and over it has to be a worry."

    I have to agree with that one. I like a wide and varied range of driving games, from proper PC sims like GTR2, RACE and rFactor (a bit laughable to see GT5 being described as "the most realistic driving game ever" in this preview, unless this was aimed at the graphics - like the Forza games, it's probably what I usually call a "pseudo sim";) over assorted console racers like PGR 3/4, Forza 2, Burnout, Flatout etc., and I'm having a hard time thinking of a single one with worse AI than GT4.

    I can certainly settle for less than the usually extremely impressive AI in the SimBin games (often so great that you get far better and more competive races against AI drivers than even some decent online pickup races), but you really couldn't use the word AI at all about the computer controlled "drivers" in GT4.
    As others have pointed out, they were utterly and completely oblivious to your - or each other's - presence on the track, and pretty much entirely on rails. Not exactly a good recipe for interesting offline races to say the least, so I'm certainly hoping they have vastly improved on that in GT5.

    Aside from that I'm looking forward to trying this Prologue thing (I'm gonna need a Blu-ray player soon, so I'll probably get a PS3) - it's especially nice to see they are including cockpit views, something that shouldn't be left out of a racing game pretending to be a sim (yeah, I'm looking at you Forza :) - at least PGR4 got it right on the 360).

  • monkie_king #54 4 years ago

    cockpit views are a bit weird though, the field of view is always too wide so you can actually see any of the interior, and then you end up with the sensation of driving from the back seat with 10-foot arms. When you drive in real life, you're looking through the windscreen, the cockpit is just in your peripheral vision. I mean, why not go the whole hog and draw the edges of the helmet visor in too, so you're peering at an even smaller rectangle of track?

    DiRT has two interior views, one of which just has a bit of steering wheel at the bottom. That's much more like it. I guess there's no point going to the effort of modelling all the interior detail if you don't get to see it, though.
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 13:16

  • Gnort #55 4 years ago

    @Shinji
    "Of course, the real fix for bad AI is obvious; race against other people, and that's the single biggest piece of progress in this game."

    If you race against other people you know and trust, maybe. Unfortunately, I find real people are even worse than the brain-dead Gran Turismo AI as they will actively try and ram you rather than just hitting you if you were in their way on the racing line.

    At least in Forza you can force simulation damage on, which will make most people realise that trying to t-bone you off on a corner will take you both out of the race. With invincible cars in GT, that won't be the case.

  • 3william56 #56 4 years ago

    If you stop on a racing line, no amount of AI will create a realistic experience because it would involve 3/4s of a tonne of Audi being rammed up your arse at 200 mph. On rails or whatever. What matters is how it works when racing. The demo was decent, and if it keeps improving as Shinji says, it looks good. However, the lack of damage kills it for me - just feels wrong - so Burnout will most likely do my racing fun this year.

  • Moz #57 4 years ago

    "Arguably most people can match their modeling; it then comes down to the question of who can maintain that standard with the most efficient meshes"

    Alot of that comes from doing GT3 when it was in early development they car models were 4MB each then Sony told them the system how much memory the PS2 would have and they had to work on drastically reducing that whilst keeping the cars looking the same as in early screen shots,

    As for paying for prologue i'm really quite happy paying for 5 tracks with 2 varients each and 30+ cars. Hopefully Sony will continue their trend of being nice to europe with their online content and only charge £15

    I'id also argue the GT is probably Sony biggest console seller in europe, so if the final game lives up to the promise of prologe it could be what boosts sony to catch up with MS

    ps. now i hate having to do this but it seems a requirement on EG these days, please note I said catch up with MS NOT suppass, this is mearly an observation of the potential qualtiy of GT5 and at no point have I expressed any desire or belief in the demise of either PS3 or 360 I have both and enjoy both equal and in the same respect I have my greduges with both Sony and MS equally.

  • Moz #58 4 years ago

    Sorry for double post but this made more sence as separate issue.

    Now I don't know if this is still the case but wasn't one reason given in past versions of GT for the lack of crash damage was that one or two car manufactures would only give them the rights to reproduce the in an "as new" state, saying that they were not alowed to deform the car in anyway?

  • Arwin #59 4 years ago

    Some quick points:

    1. the online Christmas patch also solves most of the tearing issues with the London track. It's great to see you can play just about everything with in-car view now without any slowdown. Impressive! The Corvette and Viper are really awesome to drive in, but of course the F430 is something special too.

    2. sixteen cars on track is just awesome, even more so combined with the in-car view. It's also a really good in-car view, as you can still actually see the track rather well. ;) Though a track like London is easier with bumper cam

    3. online with 16 players seems to work well, even as a European annoying the Japanese with my lousy connection I still have had some good sixteen player races. This is no doubt in part again thanks to Sony's helpful online setup, which doesn't seem to eschew setting up a few dedicated servers for us. Kudos to Sony for that. Also the ultimate plug-n-play auto-configuration works great. Microsoft, take note! (I have both consoles and wheels for both too ;) )

    4. the race options are already very customiseable. They can set up races with any number of restrictions regarding aids (e.g. professional mode only, N3 tires, no assists, track x, car y, etc.). Right now they select races for us on their servers, and are adding new ones every two weeks. While I'm sure this way they are making us beta-test some of the online, it's all for the greater good. ;)

    5. The AI is heaps better now. Not perfect (it drives a FF car like an FR one for instance), but better than most console games in that it knows when you are side by side with it even in a corner, and will avoid hitting you as best as it can, even putting a tire in the dirt rather than hit you.

    6. The penalty system is coming along nicely. Still some flaws in it, but I like that when someone crashes for instance, they become transparent very quickly. For instance, a car goes off track, then when it comes back on for whatever reason, it will be transparent. I'm one of those oddballs who doesn't like damage and rather sees luck taken out of the equation in racing games (real life would be nice too). Much nicer to lose because you suck then because someone tapped someone in the rear, that car spun out, and took you and someone else along in the first corner, for instance. Right now it's main flaws are that sometimes when someone hits you you still get too much of a penalty (most of the times though it corrects this immediately, which is good) and sometimes you become solid again too close to another car, for instance.

    6. G25 support is coming along nicely as well. In the demo you could H-shift, now you can also enable the clutch pedal, which works also to put your car in neutral for drifts for instance. You can't yet do exact clutching with it (half-connect the flywheel for instance), but it's already awesome that it does this much. I'm personally playing still with the DF Pro (will get clutch eventually, just not yet, rather have a second PS3 first for that price :D) but even there I notice that the force feedback has improved in richness and detail. Lovely.

    Add all this up - real Ferrari's, lovely cockpits, much better AI, 16 cars on track, online, online with all the previous combined, etc. Superb!

    These are just some quick points. Man, I love the F430 time trial. It's brutally hard, with no aids, pro-mode, N3 tires, and it's just really hard to stay on the track, not spin out, not brake too late, lovely. Physics are absolutely awesome in this game.

    I've always been one of the bigger fans of the series, but this time the step forwards is absolutely phenomenal, by far the biggest steps in any of its generations so far.
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 13:25

  • Kenshin001 #60 4 years ago

    @Miths, the whole cockpit view has made me think this is the way all racers should be in the future ie first person drivers. People talk about realistic damage (which is fair enough, though truly realistic would mean I would likely hardly ever finish a race) and then drive their car around the track from remote control helicopter. The in car view completely changes the nature of the racing IMO.

  • monkie_king #61 4 years ago

    There's a bit of a be-careful-what-you-wish-for factor with damage. I doubt there are many people who'd like to race for 20 laps then misjudge one corner and crack a wishbone against the armco. Maybe on the PC sims.

    PGR4 does fairly decent cosmetic-only damage, which is better than nothing, but it's still a bit dumb when you lock up and slide into a concrete barrier at 50mph, then drive off with slightly scuffed paint.

    Rallisport2 on XBox got it just right for me--fantastic body damage, doors and bonnets flying off, lights getting broken in night-races, windows smasheing, but you could take quite a lot of punishment before it started to affect the handling, or mess up your gearbox. There's definitely a balance that would work for GT, minor collisions affecting your aerodynamics a little to affect grip slightly or reduce top speed, heavier crashes making the car pull to one side etc. Kind of pseudo-simmy, which is GT's thing.

  • DrDamn #62 4 years ago

    Apologies Seacombe, it's just when you make comments like "I have the difficulty set to 115% (damage at 200%)" it all does seem a bit on the geeky side. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that, but it is most certainly on the hardcore side of Sim racing.

    The problem the GT series has is that it was so genre defining in the first place it has to go quite a way to distinguish itself from a previous release. Lots of things it was the first game to do very well and many games after it have copied them. It also has to balance change - like all series games - with maintaining the games personality.

    I think it is time Polyphony moved on to a different series of games, anything starts to get stale after 4 games. Start from a blank page.

  • DrDamn #63 4 years ago

    @Miiguel
    "DrD: the point is, what will be the price of GT (the Demo, ooops, sorry - Prologue + Full Game) be? Or the purchases are mutualy exclusive?"

    The prologue game is obviously a stop gap to keep Sony happy. So if you really want to play soon, or if you want a GT racer without too much of the sometime overwhelming content of a full release get Prologue. If you want the full GT experience then wait. Even with different content no one is forcing you to buy both or indeed - either.

  • Moz #64 4 years ago

    "I think it is time Polyphony moved on to a different series of games, anything starts to get stale after 4 games. Start from a blank page."

    You have a point but it does look like there are some new features coming to this, even if they are with the extras that surround the game. Like Burnout Paradise it's better to stick with a name people know, as only a small percentage of people follow gaming like we do. For a lot of the mass market they just walk in a shop or see an advert and go "ah cool a new GT game must be good" and go and buy it. For some it's probably not until they get in the shop that they find out it doesn't work on their PS2 so grab a PS3 with it bundled in.

    Edit/ punctuation!!
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 13:38

  • DrDamn #65 4 years ago

    @Moz
    Oh yeah I'm not suggesting they go out and produce a FPS. They could even tag the game with GT in small letters. They just need to try something different as there is not many places a straight circuit racer can go. I wouldn't be surprized if the full GT5 release does have some surprizes along the lines of Game3.0 Sony like to push - but it's tricky to see what beyond what Forza or Test Drive Unlimited have already done.

  • DrDamn #66 4 years ago

    @Gnort
    "If you race against other people you know and trust, maybe."

    Well thats the idea. Plenty of communities out there who do follow good rules on these things and play for the enojoyment. It's not that difficult to find some like minded gamers.

  • urban #67 4 years ago

    yeah. when.

  • ruttyboy #68 4 years ago

    "Oh yeah I'm not suggesting they go out and produce a FPS"

    /looks at The Club*

    /sniggers


    For me, this is probably the reason I will get a PS3, as long as I can use my Driving Force Pro with this 'demo' then I couldn't care less TBH.




    * I'm well aware it's not an FPS, but the point stands.

  • Eighthours #69 4 years ago

    One question I haven't seen answered: how does the handling model compare with the one in Forza 2?

  • aidey6 #70 4 years ago

    I am looking forward to this being released on the Euro region soon (I hope!!)

  • Moz #71 4 years ago

    @DrD

    One thing I don't always understand is why people are always looking for something drastically new, in the really world racing doesn't change drastically every couple of years, people still find playing foot or rugby to be entertaining.

    Surely it the same with these incremental style releases, you get improved graphics, better physics, some new tracks new cars based on real world designs. For racing enthusiasts who don't have the money to go racing them selfs this is ideal.

    Yes you could just go play GT3 but it doesn't have the latest cars in it. To me racing games fall under the sports sim heading you have some that appeal to sports fans Forza or GT and others that appeal to "gamers" burnout, Ridge racer.
    It's just the same as having the Fifa games and Mario striker or sencible soccer.

    This constant drive for "true" inovation is starting to drive me nuts, I was looking forward to a fun pick up and play burnout game and what do we get? Burnout paradise that ultimate yawn fest of teedium. Games have matured past the point of constant game play inovation, if the film industry try to inovate as much as games developers seem to be trying to then we have films with people walking about on their hands for no other reason then it being something new and different.

  • J.C #72 4 years ago

    So when the "full" game gets a release, you all will have played this then?

    This trend of releasing bite size chunks of a game, are helping to kill the gaming industry imo.

  • xNickNackx #73 4 years ago

    http://fa rm2.static.flickr.com/1268/1184...

  • DrDamn #74 4 years ago

    @J.C.
    "This trend of releasing bite size chunks of a game, are helping to kill the gaming industry imo."

    I think the idea is that it is actually trying to save it. Games cost loads to produce - too much in fact. As an audience we are also very demanding. Just look at the people here claiming something with 5 tracks and 37 cars is a "demo" and should be given away free. Maximizing the revenue that a developer gets from a game is what the industry needs to do to survive.

  • sopaman #75 4 years ago

    So I dont have an Xbox360 (as a matter of fact I own a PS3 with a copy of this GT5 prologue) but I don't think it's fair to say that the London track is the best city track in a racing game. It feels somewhat flat at times, some buildings façades aren't modeled in 3d but done with texturing, which I think it's quite lame considering the level of detail the city tracks in PGR4 have. The cars look great nonetheless. But overall I can't help to show my dissappointment with GT5. It's not just about the graphics (which have yet failed to impress me, not real 1080p, slowdown and most tracks are just boring!) but about gameplay. I'm bored of GT, it hasn't evolved in ages. It may be a great simulator but it's just too boring, dull. I can't stand more than 5 mins playing this and, what's even sadder, GT1 for the PSOne felt more fun.
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 14:16

  • monkie_king #76 4 years ago

    DrDamn: would you like this to become a regular thing, then? Pay 20 quid for MGS4: Prologue 12 months before the full game comes out? And for God of War 3: Prologue?

    What about if you could get the full game exclusively 3 months earlier if you bought the prologue? Would you be happy to effectively pay twice to get the game early?

    Ultimately it's down to the market to decide, and people will vote with their wallets. But GT4 Prologue must have done well enough for them to pull the same scam again, and personally it's not a precedent I'm fond of.

  • ruttyboy #77 4 years ago

    Similar to what someone said above, surely this is more like FIFA: Road to the World Cup than the potential examples you give. It's not like there's a story or anything.

    Think of it as an expansion pack that comes before the main game rather than after it.

  • DrDamn #78 4 years ago

    @Monkie_king
    You don't have to buy them. I'll just buy what I want based on the value I'll get out of it. I've got no problem with developers getting more money out of people to ensure they can continue to produce games.

    Smaller games is sometimes all I have time for these days too. So why pay full price for a game if I can pay less for a smaller portion and get my fill there?

    Don't look at it as a money making scam, look at it as options.

  • Moz #79 4 years ago

    @monkie_king: in the context of racing games of this magnitute then I quite like the prologue approuch as it can be a good 3 to 4 years between games and having this chance to play the game a year earlier is good as long as it doesn't cost too much. And paying to have 5 tracks and lots of cars is imo better then getting 1 track for free. Though I do feel that as you are paying for what is effectivly an advanced preview then at least 2 of the tracks in prologue should only appear in the final game if you have prologue, or buy a £5 track pack a small while after the main game launches, thus making the prologue games into advance DLC.

    While in an ideal world we would pay for this or DLC for the matter the fact remains that making games is costly and we live in a capitalist society. People sit there going oh I don't want to pay for this or that but at the same time you do want it and if you want it enough that you'll pay for it, then people are going to charge you for it. It's a simple fact of business.

  • ruttyboy #80 4 years ago

    @ Xiphos

    I'm confused as to exactly what your grudge is about? Do you not enjoy a large amount of cars from which to pick in a racing game?

  • monkie_king #81 4 years ago

    Xiphos, yeah but 136 of them are Skylines.

    On the Prologue thing, I'm all for episodic content, optional DLC, XBLA and alternative distribution channels, but the GT thing is far more cynical. Basically, Polyphony have completely missed their deadlines yet again, Sony desperately needs games for the PS3, and prologue serves to keep the hype machine rolling, and keep people interested in the console. Nothing wrong with that, I'm sure the promise of GT Mobile sold a few PSPs back in the day.

    However, since it's basically a stop-gap, a fudge, and an apology, it ought to be free IMO. This isn't a struggling independent game studio we're talking about, it's one of Sony's largest studios, and GT5 is a money-no-object killer app for the hardware. PS3 owners are holding their breath for GT5, and to me it smacks of exploitation that Sony are charging so much to drip-feed this game to people who are desperate enough for games that they'll pay for it twice.

    However, this is a free market, if you think it's worth the asking price, then go ahead and pay it. I know some people say XBox Live should be free, and I'm happy to pay for that because it's worth it to me. I think game demos should be free, but then I'm not everybody.
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 15:00

  • ruttyboy #82 4 years ago

    As I said above, I'm confused how this can be considered any more of a demo when compared to GT5 than FIFA:RTWC is when compared to FIFA?

  • DrDamn #83 4 years ago

    I too am happy to pay for Live and yes demos should be free, thats why I downloaded the GT5P demo - for free - before Christmas. GT5P itself is not a demo, it's a game. Don't want it, don't think it's good value - then don't buy it.

    It may be a stop gap of sorts, but it is also indicative of the amount of time games take to develop these days. Many man hours go into each car (less so into each Skyline ;0). Yes Polyphony are poor at getting games out quickly, they still need cash flow regardless of the money hat given to them by Sony.

  • JYM60 #84 4 years ago

    Quality write up. Definately importing now.

    But what's wrong with the licences? Free cars! \o/

  • monkie_king #85 4 years ago

    "We're not sure how keen we are on the idea of paying for a game demo, and there's no question but that Prologue is a demo - the multiplayer is unfinished, the number of tracks and events is limited, and even the game engine itself is clearly a work in progress to some extent."

    Is it GT5? No? Then it's a demo. If you're happy to pay for it, go for it, but don't make excuses for Sony.
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 15:26

  • JYM60 #86 4 years ago

    Probably should have read a comment or two before posting. Pointless posting now.

    GThaterslol

  • JediMasterMalik #87 4 years ago

    I think you should fuck off with walls of text no one's going to read.

  • DrDamn #88 4 years ago

    @Monkie_king
    And from the self same article ...

    "Prologue, however, is a sufficiently chunky - and sufficiently polished - slice of game to merit being released not only as a paid-for download, but also on a Blu-Ray disc. It's a carefully selected tasting menu at a knock-down price, designed to whet our appetites for the full meal - but, as we discovered, also surprisingly worthy on its own merits."

    Sorry to labour the point, but you are not being forced to buy this. If you don't want it then don't buy it ffs.

  • Moonprince #89 4 years ago

    1+

    Funny that they think someone will actually read all that shit!

  • monkie_king #90 4 years ago

    Right, so it is a demo, but it's big enough to merit the price tag. I'm not disputing that, I'm happy to agree to differ. But to me it's like your waiter saying "sorry, your meal is going to be another 20 minutes, but here's some breadsticks in the meantime. That'll be 5 pounds".

  • DrDamn #91 4 years ago

    You obviously don't go to classy enough restaurants, cos that's exactly what they do. Bread - £2.50 - cheeky gits.

    To use your own analogy it is like going to a restaurant and having the option of having a starter (GT5P) whilst waiting for the main course. If that is not to your tastes then just have breadsticks (GT5P Demo - free) or some nibbles at the bar (GTHD - free).

  • ruttyboy #92 4 years ago

    "Is it GT5? No? Then it's a demo."

    Eh? Just because it has GT5 in the name? If they took the same game and sold it under a completely different name and denied all associations (when asked) with the GT franchise would it still be a demo?

  • monkie_king #93 4 years ago

    Well, it was EG's analogy to start with. I can see where you're coming from though, and to be honest if I didn't have a 360 I'd probably cave in and get this to tide me over.

  • steoc4 #94 4 years ago

    "Is it GT5? No? Then it's a demo. If you're happy to pay for it, go for it, but don't make excuses for Sony. "

    There was already an actual real GT5P demo, with one track and 10 cars, which was completely free. GT5P is a large game with a progression structure that you will need to sink dozens of hours into to unlock everything. It's great value for money.

    It may not be as big as GT5 but GT5 will be one of the biggest games released in years, in terms of the amount of content.

    My GT3 save file had lap records set in 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005, at which point I bought GT4. GT5P is the third Gran Turismo game I've payed money for in 7 years, and I'll be happy to pay for GT5 next year too considering the hundreds of hours I've sunk into them.

    It's no worse than going from PGR3 to PGR4 or pretty much any other similar franchise. And if you don't want to buy a discount price game with a ton of excellent content, nobody is forcing you to.

  • DrDamn #95 4 years ago

    @Headbog
    If Forza2 had sold ~1 million in 12 weeks then it was already on the verge of overtaking the 1.01 million Forza 1 sold on the original XBox to 24 million owners.

    In fact a 1:10 attach rate before bundles is better than the over all 8:120 which is what GT4 has managed is it not?

  • monkie_king #96 4 years ago

    headbog: FYI I was saying the same thing about GT4 Prologue back in the day. I think it's really a philosophical point whether you view it as a stand-alone mini-release or a cut-down sop to keep people interested until the real game comes along. If you want it, go ahead, it's not like you're swamped with quality games on the PS3 oh no did I really just say that I'm such an xbot!

    edit: in all seriousness, I'm personally more concerned that this represents the thin end of the wedge, and massive uptake will give Sony's beancounters ideas. On the other hand, I suppose maybe it is a legitimate approach to funding long-term development projects, a kind of early-adoption for software. After all, if you're happy to pay, then I guess everyone's a winner (though all these concepts and prologues and demos of prologues inevitably push the full game's release back somewhat). It would be nice if Prologue owners got some kind of discount off the full game though, or some free/exclusive DLC etc.
    Edited by 2 at 08/01/08 @ 16:15

  • Milk #97 4 years ago

    Sorry for being a little slow.

    But if I sign into the Japan PS store and download (& buy i presume) GT prologue. Will I have any problems playing online with other euro people when it comes out here? and I'm guessing it's all in japanese?

    Anything else I need to consider?

    Cheers

  • Scimarad #98 4 years ago

    "The fatal flaw with the GT games has always been the shockingly poor AI"

    I have never got that argument. To me Forza 2 and PGR3/4 are just as bad when it comes to dodgy AI - The AI cars will cheerfully try and ram you off the track as if you didn't exist. I'd take GTs 'boring' AI any day over the psycho drivers in those over two games...

  • DrDamn #99 4 years ago

    @Headbog ... I take it all back, they were right, you are as bad as Apologie ...

    You said ... "Forza 2 took 11 weeks to reach 479k sales in the US, and 422k everywhere else"

    Then I said ... "If Forza2 had sold ~1 million in 12 weeks"

    You then said ... "Forza 2 was around 200k shy of that figure, and with sales less than 20k a week"

    So - do you see what is wrong here? How did they lose 101k sales in one week? A mass return of Forza2?

  • Yaz #100 4 years ago

    "If Forza 2 had not flopped, it would be at similar numbers."

    Hmmm, not that I want to get involved with the sales figures arguement, but Forza 2 wasn't a flop. :|

    Yes it doesn't command the kind of following that the GT series enjoys, but again, that doesn't make it a flop.

  • Hughes. #101 4 years ago

    GT3 Concept and GT4 Prologue were a total rip-off, and for a while I put this release in the same bag of contempt, but, where the 2 prior GT snacks were completable in a long evening or two, the fact that this offers online multiplayer extends its life pretty much infinitely.

    Those who can't see the value of that, dont buy it, but for those who continue to insist this is nothing more than a paid-for demo, it is inescapably obvious that it offers vastly more than a demo would. I never characterised Crackdown as a paid for Halo3 demo, although many, many people used it as such, and paid a good deal more than this is likely to cost.

    As for the Forza talk, Polyphony are peerless, and while there are lessons for them to learn to improve the series, none of them are from the direction of Turn10, yet another studio that continues to refine the art of missing the point when copying succesful franchises on Sony platforms.

  • ronuds #102 4 years ago

    If this weren't a GT game, would anybody care? It sounds oh so incredibly plain and boring. Where are the options that have seemingly become standard with most racing games these days? Instead, we have EG acting like an in-cockpit view is something revolutionary.

    Forza made a name for itself from scratch, and I dare say that Forza 1 still has more options packed in with it than GT5.

  • secombe #103 4 years ago


    I have never got that argument. To me Forza 2 and PGR3/4 are just as bad when it comes to dodgy AI - The AI cars will cheerfully try and ram you off the track as if you didn't exist. I'd take GTs 'boring' AI any day over the psycho drivers in those over two games...

    I wasn't comparing it to any of those games (I don't have a 360), I was comparing it to a couple of PC racers that have genuinely clever and challenging AI.

  • Yaz #104 4 years ago

    "It was most certainly a flop."

    It most certainly wasn't a flop.

    3 million+ sales for a game is great by any standards, especially for a sim (which typically has less appeal than an arcade racer!). As I said before, Forza doesn't command the same appeal as the GT series, so we wouldn't expect sales to compare.

    Many games come no where near matching the sales of the big hitting games in each genre (like the Halo series, and GT series, the GTA series, etc), but it doesn't mean the other games in the genres are flops for failing to reach the heights of the distinguished few.

    To claim they are flops for this reason is nonsense. :| If we took it to the extreme, we can compile a large list of games on both the 360 and PS3 which are flops by your definition despite great sales. IMO, this is food for the fanboys and nothing else. ;)

    So I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with you.
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 17:18

  • DrDamn #105 4 years ago

    @headbog
    "Around 900k to around 1.1 million = around 200k"

    Which is nice - but where did you get the 1.1m figure from?

    @Farticus
    Don't you start with the demo thing :). I'll give you until Friday to name another "demo" of such quality with similar stats in terms of circuits and cars. There are plenty of other "games" sold full price with a lot less in them.

  • BadBoyBonner #106 4 years ago

    DrDamn

    I'll give you until Friday to name another "demo" that charges over £19 quid for it.

  • DrDamn #107 4 years ago

    @Farticus
    "It's not featured enough to be called a sim, and it's not accessible enough to be called an arcade racer."

    The GT series has included both sim-like and arcade modes to suit both stables and a reasonable stab at rallying. It's accessible enough to be the best sell racing series ever.

    GT isn't Forza though, it's GT. If you prefer the Forza handling and game features get a 360 and Forza 2. There are a sizable number of people out there who do like the GT gameplay and it would be crazy to suggest they change it too much for GT5. Yes they need to catch up in some areas, but there is an feel for to the game they can't change as the game would no longer be GT.

  • DrDamn #108 4 years ago

    @BadBoyBoner
    "I'll give you until Friday to name another "demo" that charges over £19 quid for it."

    What are you coming round Farticus place to get drunk and play videogames too?

    GT4Prologue, GT Concept 2001 Tokyo ... :D

    Seriously 37 cars, 5 tracks + variations. It's not a full game, but they aren't charging full price.

  • ronuds #109 4 years ago

    Well, I'm reading this preview and I'm saying to myself, "what else can you do?" and I'm not finding any answers to those questions. Can you even customize the car engines? Why am I instead hearing about how the car's interiors are now fleshed out, even though that same feature is in just about every racing game these days? I know the appeal of GT's over the years has been the # of cars you can collect and the excellent handling system, but isn't it time we moved beyond just that?

    No damage? No paint customization? Day/night cyles? Different weather?

    Anything besides going around a track?

    Oh yeah...YAY, it looks pretty! And this deserves a pricey demo? My God, you poor PS3-only owners really do have a thin lineup.

  • BadBoyBonner #110 4 years ago

    Dr.Damn

    Sounds like a good night - however perhaps the question should be interpreted to not include all the GT demo's.

    Fact is I would love these and think they were great - if they allowed you to get your equivalent money off the full games price - through upgrading (something they could offer online and still make a massive profit).

    If they did offer the money off the full price purchase in store I would think they were great - as is - I think it's A) very cheeky and B) a spoiling tactic to hurt other developers of driving games on the PS3.


  • DrDamn #111 4 years ago

    @BadBoyBoner
    The spoiling tactic is not something I'd considered and a good point. Though the Sony platforms are so dominated by GT games it's a wonder anyone else bothers.

    It's probably best I forget that I just remembered Forza2 is available for about £20/£25 most places these days too :).

    Polyphony have already produced 2 substantial GT demos which were given away free. I don't begrudge them trying to make some money from this.
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 17:47

  • kangarootoo #112 4 years ago

    That london track screeny looks absolutely stunning!

  • BadBoyBonner #113 4 years ago

    DrDamn

    "Seriously 37 cars, 5 tracks + variations. It's not a full game, but they aren't charging full price...."

    ....whereas Namco managed to charge full price with that kind of line-up for years with the Ridge Racer series! lol
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 17:58

  • JYM60 #114 4 years ago

    What an awful thing to read through. Not that I really read it.

  • Feanor #115 4 years ago

    "6. G25 support is coming along nicely as well. In the demo you could H-shift, now you can also enable the clutch pedal, which works also to put your car in neutral for drifts for instance. You can't yet do exact clutching with it (half-connect the flywheel for instance), but it's already awesome that it does this much."

    I understood everything up till "6." :0

  • ruttyboy #116 4 years ago

    "I'll give you until Friday to name another "demo" that charges over £19 quid for it."

    And there's the rub my friends, demo's are free, they are charging for it so it's not a demo by definition. It might be a really shit game, it might be terrible value for money, but none of that matters as they are releasing it as a standalone game so therefore IT IS A GAME AS THAT IS THE ONLY REQUIREMENT FOR IT TO BE CLASSED AS SUCH.

  • betahoven #117 4 years ago

    Post deleted at 09:36:16 17-12-2011

  • George-Roper #118 4 years ago

    Gran Turismo. Porn for sleepy car geeks.

    Now Motorstorm. That's more like it. More of that please, thankyouverymuch.

  • Agent_Llama #119 4 years ago

    I adored the first Gran Turismo, but even with GT2 the magic was starting to wear off. GT4 was an improvement over 3, and I did enjoy it to an extent, but it ultimately came down to the same boring on-rails AI racing. If they can improve that, maybe I can find some GT love again.

  • Yaz #120 4 years ago

    headbog wrote: "If you'd even remotely bothered to follow this thread rather than jumping on anything remotely negative about your favourite console, you'd realise that 2.2 million of those sales are from a bundle that people bought regardless of what was in the pack."

    Firstly headbog, there's no reason to be patronising and insulting. I haven't insulted you and claimed you're this and that, therefore try sticking to the discussion and leave the insults aside please.

    Secondly, (as some know here already), I own neither a 360 nor a PS3 (no point explaining why at the moment), but I will own both in future. Currently, I'm happy with my PC and last gen consoleS, therefore don't play the fanboy card please. :)

    Sales are sales, it doesn't matter how you dress it up (or dress it down) or where they came from. It doesn't matter whether it comes from bundles, seperate sales, bargains or even from the company forcing gamers to purchase the game at gunpoint (ok, exaggeration). Those are the Forza 2 sales, and so it most certainly isn't a flop.

    As I said before, we can play this same game with games for all consoles, breaking down the sales accordingly, comparing them to other games, time scales, expectations etc and find ways to claim almost any game is a flop when measured against the conveniently chosen set of parameters. But that's not the basis of a useful discussion, since it's nothing more than a way of proving what you *want* to believe.

    "Except Forza dropped off the top 50 having not even outsold it's previous version, clocking in around 1.08 milion before the bundle appeared. Do you seriously think that a game that previously took over 5 months to reach around a milion suddenly started selling all on it's own merit again?"

    As I said, conveniently chosen parameters.

    "Disagree all you like, you are being selective."

    No, I'm speaking the facts as they are, not modifying the conditions to promote a personal point of view.

    I look forward to your response (hopefully it doesn't feature the attitude expressed in your previous reply ;)).
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 20:30

  • Yaz #121 4 years ago

    headbog wrote: "One doesnt need to own a particular brand of console to favour one over the other"

    And simply stating an opinion that Forza 2 is not a flop does NOT indicate a bias for a particular 'favourite' console, just as I haven't assumed your views means the opposite!

    I could just as easily state your apparent anti-Forza pro-GT comments together with your comments elsewhere that the PS3 has much untapped power but the 360 has very little (which is wrong btw), indicates a strong Sony/PS3 bias, but I prefer to stick to the points instead.

    "If nobody purchasing an XBOX for the entire chritmas season has a choice but to buy it with those two games, then no, they do not count as proper sales."

    Well actually they do, because you cannot assume everyone who purchased the bundle didn't want Forza 2. Like I said, sales are sales, whether you like it or not. It doesn't matter whether you think it's unfair or shouldn't be counted, those are still sales of Forza 2, and therefore the game is not a flop (however much you may want it to be :|).

    "Go right ahead - it wont stop the forza series from being a comercial flop."

    Just as it won't stop you being wrong. So obviously there's nowhere for this discussion to go other than..."Oh yes it is", "Oh no it's not", "Oh YES it IS", "Oh NO it's NOT", "OH YES IT IS", "OH..." I think you get the point. :)

    "If I sold a game for 5 months and sold 5 copies, then gave it away for free ith the Daily Mail for 1 month"

    Sorry, but games in bundles are not "given away free", even if technically it may seem that way sometimes. So your arguement ends there. But as I said, we could go round and round in circles, saying if this and if that, but it wouldn't change our opinions just as it doesn't change the sales figures for Forza 2.

    So whether you think it was a commercial flop or not doesn't actually matter (except as a point of discussion on a forum). ;)

    Edited by 3 at 08/01/08 @ 21:13

  • lovely2cu #122 4 years ago

    Dear headbog,

    The only flops around here are the Sony PSP and PS3

    Yours truly,

    The World

    :DDDDD

  • Yaz #123 4 years ago

    "Yes, it does seem as if it is a 'yes it is, oh no it isnt' argument, but you REALLY are streting it. Do you HONESTLY beleive that, 5 months after the game was out and sold less than 1.1 million, it suddenly saw millions more people clamouring to play it?"

    And can't you see that since in 5 months Forza 2 on the 360 already matched/exceeded the TOTAL sales for Forza on the XBox (which sold just over a million!), then that hardly makes it a flop!

    A game which has sold 1 million is not a flop however much you may want to convince yourself (unless the developement was so costly that it fails to make a profit). We can all quote reasons why we think a game should have or could have sold more, but at worse that only makes the sales for the game *disappointing*, it doesn't automatically make the game a commercial flop.

    So we can all speculate all day on how many sales Forza 2 would have had without the bundles, but if 'only' selling 1 million makes it a flop, then there are many high profile games for both the 360 and PS3 which are flops according to you.
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 21:47

  • Yaz #124 4 years ago

    Lovely2cu wrote: "The only flops around here are the Sony PSP and PS3"

    Again, you're viewing a 'flop' in the same way as headbog, and it's wrong. The PSP and PS3 are not flops just because their sales are below certain people's expectations. :|

  • lovely2cu #125 4 years ago

    "The PSP and PS3 are not flops just because their sales are below certain people's expectations."

    Um, yes they are. The PSP was meant to become a new iPod style hi-tech gadget phenomenon, to rival and overtake Nintendo handhelds. It failed

    The PS3 was meant to be this sooper dooper console/computer, the ultimate in all-round digital entertainment, the world's premier media hub. It's anything but.

    Yes, both have flopped and badly.

  • Kryon #126 4 years ago

    Going by headbogs logic, every single PS3 game (and indeed the PS3 console itself) are all total flops.

    Weird, I actually agree with him!

  • Yaz #127 4 years ago

    "However, I am merely repeating myself to those that refuse to see that Forza 2 did not do any better than it's predecessor, which did badly for a game with it's profile and positioning."

    And again you're ignoring the facts.

    Forza was released on the XBox in May 2005! Like to guess what the XBox userbase was at that time? It was about 20 million!

    [link url=http://jo urnal.pcvsconsole.com/?thread=8498
    ]http://jo urnal.pcvsconsole.com/?thread=8...[/link]

    In total, Forza sold just over 1 million on the XBox.

    Forza 2 was released on the 360 at a time when the 360 userbase was about HALF that of the XBox, and yet it surpassed the sales of Forza in 5 months.

    So how is that not doing better than it's predecessor? :)

  • Yaz #128 4 years ago

    love2cu wrote: "Um, yes they are. The PSP was meant to become a new iPod style hi-tech gadget phenomenon, to rival and overtake Nintendo handhelds. It failed"

    Failure to take the number one spot, whether it's games or consoles, does not make it a flop!

    "The PS3 was meant to be this sooper dooper console/computer, the ultimate in all-round digital entertainment, the world's premier media hub. It's anything but."

    Doesn't matter what you think of it, despite it's expense, it has sold at a similar rate to the 360 since launch. It is disappointing given the sales of the previous Playstation consoles? Yes? Is it a flop? No.

  • Eurytus #129 4 years ago

    "Let this discussion end before you make a mockery of yourself. "

    I think we just passed through the irony event horizon........

  • Kryon #130 4 years ago

    @Yaz

    "Doesn't matter what you think of it, despite it's expense, it has sold at a similar rate to the 360 since launch. It is disappointing given the sales of the previous Playstation consoles? Yes? Is it a flop? No."

    I dunno man, the PS2 was kinda like Michael Jackson in the 80's (i.e. the bollocks). The PS3 is kinda like Michael Jackson now (i.e. just bollocks). My point is, I think if you fall (far) behind what you've achieved in the past (and what is now expected of you) it does kinda put you in the 'bit of a flop' camp.

  • Yaz #131 4 years ago

    "Yaz: As I pointed out, GT3 did considerably better, and ended up growing its sales with the PS2 - whereas Forza simply stopped selling once it had reached the same audience it had with the XBOX version."

    GT is not more relevent than the DS is to calling the PSP a success or flop!

    Forza 2 continued to sell and you can'' exclude the bundles. Unless you can extrapolate the number of gamers who bought a bundle with Forza 2 but didn't actually want the game, then it's just pointless guesswork on your part.

    "Most games that are considered successes are selling millions in a few weeks, not months."

    Nonsense, it depends on the game, whether it's from a high selling series, the size of the userbase at the time, hype and advertising.

    If a game sells well and makes a decent profit, and most important of all - gamers enjoy playing it, then it's a success afaik.

  • Yaz #132 4 years ago

    "Technically speaking, everything but the Wii and DS has been a total flop"

    I disagree. But then you know that already. :)

  • Kryon #133 4 years ago

    "The PS3 flopped to start with, but since the latter part of the year, things have picked up the pace - culminating with Blu-Ray being pretty much the trojan horse that Sony hoped it would be."

    But surely headbog, Bluray is a flop, right? I mean it's only done so well because it's packed in with the PS3, right? So it must be a flop and Bluray sales aren't really better than HD-DVD because you get one 'free' when you buy a PS3, right?

  • Yaz #134 4 years ago

    headbog wrote: "You live in cloud cukoo land mate. Keep that optimism going."

    If you want to believe that. Fine. :)

    "Meanwhile anyone with half a brain can see Forza hasnt done nearly that well."

    If you think it hasn't done as well as YOU expect, that's your opinion, but that doesn't make it a flop.

  • Yaz #135 4 years ago

    Kryon wrote: "But surely headbog, Bluray is a flop, right? I mean it's only done so well because it's packed in with the PS3, right? So it must be a flop and Bluray sales aren't really better than HD-DVD because you get one 'free' when you buy a PS3, right?"

    :-D


    EDIT: Anyway, thanks for the discussion guys, it was a great distraction from some very boring work I'm in the middle of. Ah well, no rest for the wicked...it's back to work for me. Cya. :)
    Edited by 2 at 08/01/08 @ 22:33

  • lovely2cu #136 4 years ago

    Kryon wrote: "But surely headbog, Bluray is a flop, right? I mean it's only done so well because it's packed in with the PS3, right? So it must be a flop and Bluray sales aren't really better than HD-DVD because you get one 'free' when you buy a PS3, right?"

    Haha, answer that headbog! If Forza 2 is such a failure for having great pack-in sales, I wonder what that makes Blu-Ray? Jebus, the ratio of standalone BR player to DVD player sales must be absolutely pitiful! :DDD

  • Kryon #137 4 years ago

    Is "apples and oranges" the new net slang for " I've just been pwned" ?

  • Vic #138 4 years ago

    'Bluray sales aren't really better than HD-DVD because you get one 'free' when you buy a PS3, right?'

    Except that pack-ins arent included in Nielsen sales data...

    Kryon not liking a PS3-only game...unbelievable eh?

    Perhaps we should annoint him as Bill Gates' successor!
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/08 @ 22:40

  • lovely2cu #139 4 years ago

    "Is "apples and oranges" the new net slang for " I've just been pwned" ?"

    It would seem so

  • Eurytus #140 4 years ago

    Blu-Ray may now be beating HD-DVD but it is no where near the Trojan Horse than Sony hoped for. Firstly the bulk of Blu Ray players are PS3's and statistics show that a very large number of PS3 owners are totally unaware that the PS3 actually plays Blu Rays. Not impressive.

    Secondly, whether Blu Ray or HD-DVD both are getting absolutely blown away by old DVD, which is plenty good enough for the vast majority of people. Blu Ray (or HD DVD) will need an absolutely staggering turn around if it is to dislodge old style DVD before we head into digital distribution. And thus far it is not looking at all likely. Particularly when you can buy a standard DVD for £5 or less in the sales and upscaled it looks plenty good enough on a standard sized LCD TV. And when Blu Rays, in shops, which is where the casual buyer still buys their movies from, Blu Ray DVDs cost well over £20.

  • élbéróss #141 4 years ago

    I would buy a ps3 just for this. Im sure many others who havnt invested in next gen will also.

  • busboy33 #142 4 years ago

    question for those of you currently playing this:

    Has the "GT bounce" been removed? Where you overtake a car on the inside of a tight corner, slam into them, and "bounce" off at full speed?

    No doubt the graphics are mind-melting, and the replay views and smooth camerawork are tops. I've been turned off of GT since Forza strictly because of the "bounce" and other unrealistic driving physics. I can respect not wanting to show damage (I like it, but I can appreciate all pretty cars staying pretty), but when somebody clips my rear quarter panel at 150+ knh, then we should both go flying -- the videos I've seen on the InterTubes aren't showing this kind of "sim" driving -- and if it's just gorgeous bumper cars then I can hold off on buying the PS3.

    **Yes, I'm a 360 fan. Not speaking ill of the the game because of that -- I genuinely get infuriated at the not-even-close-to-reality driving physics. I'm not looking for "total sim" realism, but something that handles more realistically than PGR or the like . . . which GT hasn't done for a long time. Give me those graphics and something even remotely approximating real driving, and Sony's sold a console.**

  • Yaz #143 4 years ago

    busboy33 wrote: "Has the "GT bounce" been removed? Where you overtake a car on the inside of a tight corner, slam into them, and "bounce" off at full speed?"

    Unfortunately not, the "GT bounce" remains the same. :(

    http://www.g amevideos.com/video/id/16810

  • busboy33 #144 4 years ago

    Thanks Yaz

    Yah . . . .no.

    for those wondering what I mean by "GT bounce", 5:05 into Yaz's link -- "real driving simulation" my left testicle.

    Here's an example of the "bumpercar" physics:
    [link url=htt p://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&newsid=21294
    ]http://ww w.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&new...[/link]
    at 1:09 into the video. The player does a PIT manuever at 250+kmh -- neither car moves.
    an example of what should happen:
    [link url=http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=4g4CIYR7lIk
    ]http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=4g4CIYR7lIk
    [/link]

    like I said -- I'm not looking for complete realism, but for pete's sake! I'm a graphics whore, but I think I'll hold onto my $500 for now.

  • BadBoyBonner #145 4 years ago

    Kryon

    "I dunno man, the PS2 was kinda like Michael Jackson in the 80's (i.e. the bollocks). The PS3 is kinda like Michael Jackson now (i.e. just bollocks)."

    Just a thanks from me for posting the funniest post I have read in a long time. Nice one!

  • rotmm #146 4 years ago

    headbog,

    So, by your reckoning, to date there hasn't been a single PS3 game released that can be considered anything other than a flop?

    Interesting point of view.

  • rotmm #147 4 years ago

    headbog,

    Sorry, the "only into its 2nd year" argument makes no sense. Many 360 titles sold exceptionally well in the first year and the same should have been true for the PS3, given the relative scarcity of games.

    But to date, the only PS3 games that have sold well are those that formed part of bundles... motorstorm and resistance. So even those, by your reckoning, were failures. So when you say most have been flops, what you really mean is that ALL PS3 games have been flops.

    Whereas on the 360, in it's 1st year, you had million plus sales for Perfect Dark, PGR3, Gears, Call of Duty 2, Ghost Recon, Oblivion, Dead Rising and others.

    So the PS3 games, and therefore the PS3 itself, can all be considered flops. Whereas the 360 games, and by extension the console itself, can be considered a reasonable success.

    As I said, an interesting point of view.

  • Kryon #148 4 years ago

    headbog, how many times do people have to pwn you before you get a clue?

  • jiggles100 #149 4 years ago

    I can't believe people still argue about the success/failure of PS3. Anybody who has done their homework knows that Since PS3 european launch the 2 systems have pretty much been selling 1:1. Halo3's release caused a surge in sales of MS' console. This last week, ending 05/01/08, the PS3 shifted 60,000 more units than x360. The recent economic crisis in America could, potentially, push the MS into the cold as consumer spending power decreases in their home region. The future is as yet uncertain, but I would expect to see PS3 catch up on cumulative sales by end of 2008 assuming that the additional GTA4 content doesn't dent SONY's sales ledger too hard.

    As for GT5p - It's a sentimental thing for me. I saw GT1 and ran out to buy a PS1. In it's day the most expansive racing experience available on a console. FFVII arrived that year ... reminisces ... aah those were the days! I digress! My point being similar to many here that GT cannot hold onto its crown of glory from yesteryear. The game hasn't changed. After playing Motorstorm so long I'm not sure I can go back to driving around clinical racing tracks. Give me the smell of petrol and the taste of mud in my mouth.

    /baulks at lack of physics damage but will still buy GT5p for sentimental reasons.

    /waits patiently for Motorstorm 2 (assuming they fix all of the following split-screen/load times/presentation/stupid slo-mo every freakin' crash!)
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 08:52

  • napalm68 #150 4 years ago

    Sounds nice. I wish the real game would hurry up and turn up... Still due in July?

    And I wonder if they will finally have damage, rather than impregnable cars... (in the full version I mean - not in the prologue it says)
    Edited by 2 at 12/01/08 @ 02:20