Gears criticised for stereotyping Comments by Ellie Gibson

@ Ryze

Yeah I see what you mean :)

But from his post he was implying a white racism problem which we ignore which is simply untrue.

Racism genreally is brushed under the carpet along with the drugs issue (what the fuck is going on with Winehouse and Doherty, etc?!?!?), the kids having sex issue, teenage crime and poor inner city school performance, us having to sort out our own border controls and immigration policy instead of blaming poor people for picking the easiest country to migrate to...

It's all to the detriment of the nation...

/rants about the downfall of society...

I hear ya there Ryze, f**king depressing innit!

Instead of tackling issues - there are these stupid lists of words that people can't say.

The issues just get ducked and dodged, while all the time, people feel gagged when all they want to do is express themselves.

The real problem is that people just don't seem to understand each other - and loads of (especially young) black people don't understand themselves.

They play the stereotype themselves because they think that it's the way to be 'black'. Mainly because their own culture was ripped out of their family history between 1700-1960 but hey! That's another debate!

So this 'stereotype' is made of what people think black people are, or expect them to be. It's a bloody low set of expectations (Clown or Criminal, if not an athlete) - the same thing happens with young people in Britain (low expectations - branded as 'hoodies' and tearaways - so the weak just live down to the expectations).

While the problems are not solved, the stereotypes will not go away: black low self esteem, young inner city kids in poor schools, with nothing really to aspire to... no decent visible rolemodes, only idiots get the spotlight these days, poor leaders - does Gordon Brown even talk to us as a leader?

Neither he nor the Queen have inspired me to do anything with my life.

Chuck D and Ice Cube have though. What's that all about?

It's as simple as that.

So... do I have your position right, here? That black people didn't have the right to complain about how they were portrayed on, say, The Black And White Minstrel Show because it wasn't aimed at them?

I'm not familiar with that show, or the context it was set in; but I will say this: I am against what I view/play being censored to conform to a particular political viewpoint. There is a big difference between media that promotes race hate, and one that (through lack of imagination or otherwise) pokes fun at racial stereotypes; just the same way there is a big difference between an English colleague poking fun at my Scots accent; and someone organized BNP conventions.

"Y'all don't know what it's like bein' male, middle-class an' white..."

That statement there is out and out racist.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you seem to think it means.

You are using 'Y'all' and bad composition presumably to portray the stereotypical view of a uneducated Texan 'trailer trash' white demographic. In your own terms, this is no less racist than someone portraying black suburbanites as always wearing hoodies. Of course, both might or might not be 'racist', it all depends on context and motive. The portrayal of blacks in GTA, Uncharted or Gears might be cliched, but it is NOT racist and calling it so demeans the real issues.

"There's a world of difference between "content aimed at young white men" and "content that exclusively treats women and minorities as objects of amusement for young white men". Jesus, why am I even having to point that out? "

I would agree if I thought for a second that games developers were actually setting out, with motive, to make fun of the minorities in question and spread that sentiment to impressionable members of the public. But that's not the case and you know it. Where we actually get to the point where only able bodied straight white males can be typecast, something has gone badly wrong.

I hope this helps you understand my position and I retract the 'shit blood' comment because you are making your points in a fair and reasonable manner and I really ought to do likewise. I feel a real sense of danger that politically correct viewpoints have served there purpose in this country and now gone well beyond that; and are impacting on our media, conventions, humour and way of life. When I see a person trying to insinuate that videogame I enjoy very much are somehow dangerous politically I feel pretty angry. The fact that a leading videogame magazine of a niche sector, Edge, has a left wing mandate I would normally attribute to 'The Guardian' is pretty scary.

They should have used a Tiger Woods blueprint for the Coletrain. That would be great in a firefight, imagine that squeaky little voice!

Nah, they should have made him like RJ from No Retreat No Surrender, and he should also do that same rap "Well I dance a bit and I'm pretty quick, I move to the beat so watch my feet". Now that would have been class!

Everytime you pause the game he should go:

"Stop! Hammer Time!"

So... do I have your position right, here? That black people didn't have the right to complain about how they were portrayed on, say, The Black And White Minstrel Show because it wasn't aimed at them?

I'm not familiar with that show, or the context it was set in; but I will say this: I am against what I view/play being censored to conform to a particular political viewpoint. There is a big difference between media that promotes race hate, and one that (through lack of imagination or otherwise) pokes fun at racial stereotypes; just the same way there is a big difference between an English colleague poking fun at my Scots accent; and someone organized BNP conventions.

Yes, of course a difference between media that promotes race hate and media poking fun at racial stereotypes. Absolutely no argument there.

There's also a difference betwen poking fun at racial stereotypes and perpetuating and exploiting racial stereotypes, though.

Oh, and check this out. Would you agree that it's racist, irrespective of the intentions of its creators?

"Y'all don't know what it's like bein' male, middle-class an' white..."

That statement there is out and out racist.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you seem to think it means.

You are using 'Y'all' and bad composition presumably to portray the stereotypical view of a uneducated Texan 'trailer trash' white demographic.

I'm using "y'all" and bad composition because I'm quoting noted South Carolina redneck Ben Folds, as it goes.

"There's a world of difference between "content aimed at young white men" and "content that exclusively treats women and minorities as objects of amusement for young white men". Jesus, why am I even having to point that out? "

I would agree if I thought for a second that games developers were actually setting out, with motive, to make fun of the minorities in question and spread that sentiment to impressionable members of the public. But that's not the case and you know it. Where we actually get to the point where only able bodied straight white males can be typecast, something has gone badly wrong.

I'm not sure I've made myself clear, here. "For the amusement of" doesn't translate to "deliberately making fun of". As I said in a previous post, 90% of female characters in games are ornamental fantasy-fodder. 90% of black characters in games are clichéd comic relief or ghetto stereotypes. They're that way because their sole purpose in the game is to pander to the perceived tastes of their target demographic.

I'm not suggesting for a second that developers deliberately set out to demean women and minorities. I'm just saying that it's unhealthy to have the media constantly telling young white men that women and minorites exist only to amuse them. It’s an unhealthy – and yes, even dangerous - trend even if that message isn't the developers' intent. I think that's part of what Morgan Grey was getting at in the original article when he was talking about games reinforcing "casual" racism.

Like it or not, we are part of the privileged majority. As such, in all good conscience we have a responsibility to be aware of the inherent, ingrained biases and bigotries that are so widespread and “normal” that we don't even realise we're affected by them. And we have a responsibility to respect the views and opinions of people outside that majority, whose experiences we can’t remotely understand.

I appreciate it’s difficult to see that, largely because of the sense of entitlement that’s built up by having the world largely run for your benefit for 20 or 30 years. But how can you possibly deny that the media – ALL media - still largely treats women and minorities pretty badly, how can you deny that that’s a problem, how can you deny that we’d be better-off as a culture if that wasn’t the case?

I hope this helps you understand my position and I retract the 'shit blood' comment because you are making your points in a fair and reasonable manner and I really ought to do likewise. I feel a real sense of danger that politically correct viewpoints have served there purpose in this country and now gone well beyond that; and are impacting on our media, conventions, humour and way of life.

The term “politically correct” has become so totally debased it’s utterly worthless. Worse than worthless, actually – it’s lead to anyone expressing even the most mild, most reasoned questioning of the status quo getting lumped in with apocryphal right-wing fairy-tale bollocks about schoolkids being forced to sing “Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep” by well-meaning teachers and dismissed out of hand.

Way, way, WAY too often, people spit out the phrase “You’re just being politically correct” to justify their defensive gut reaction to being told that what they’re doing is upsetting other people, and to avoid having to examine the implications of the uncomfortable question that’s being asked. See: this comments thread.

The fact that a leading videogame magazine of a niche sector, Edge, has a left wing mandate I would normally attribute to 'The Guardian' is pretty scary.

I’m not sure I’d agree that Edge has a “left wing mandate”. Even so, if you want a games mag that revels in exploitative images and the tackier end of gaming you’re not short of choices, man.

Unlike someone who’s looking for a positive, non-stereotypical black videogame character. See?

edit - Bloody links.

LOL @ Ryze :D

I reckon Rodafowa should also say "Stop! Hammer time!" at the end of his posts, otherwise they could go on forever, a bit like the one above ;)

That's why I normally just stick to being pithy, sarcastic and totally unconstructive, man. It's usually easier for everyone concerned. ;)

eurogamer should stop scouring MTV for gaming related news. i mean, it's bloody MTV, innit?!

@Rodafowa

Woah that's a wall of text there, even by my standards.

I don't disagree that perpetuating stereotypes can be a bad thing if it leads impressionable people to an uneducated and prejudicial view which carries over to their daily life. If this 'Minstrel Show' did that, then it's a bad thing - the fact that there were no other balancing or alternative images available at the time is highlighted in the article and would lead me to believe this example better represents historical views which most educated people have thankfully left behind. But we need to draw the line somewhere - we can't rule out genuinely humourous and well intended ribbings based on said stereotypes; which we understand as adults are not realistic; nor should we censor setting RE5 in an African village because it *might* offend a small section of the community because they associate it with unrelated experiences.

"Like it or not, we are part of the privileged majority. As such, in all good conscience we have a responsibility to be aware of the inherent, ingrained biases and bigotries that are so widespread and “normal” that we don't even realise we're affected by them. And we have a responsibility to respect the views and opinions of people outside that majority, whose experiences we can’t remotely understand. "

I would agree with this if you took out the word 'privileged' and took out 'whose experiences we can't remotely understand'.

ALL media - still largely treats women and minorities pretty badly

This is utter tosh. Prime time telly is largely dominated by female interests. The most 'risky' humour on a network channel is 'The Friday Night Project' This is another debate.

'I’m not sure I’d agree that Edge has a “left wing mandate”. Even so, if you want a games mag that revels in exploitative images and the tackier end of gaming you’re not short of choices, man.

Unlike someone who’s looking for a positive, non-stereotypical black videogame character. See? '

The common stereotypes in games might get boring fast, but it's a pretty big jump to say that the black guy in GoW 'reinforces casual racism'; and an absolutely ludicrous jump to Barret's Mr T pastiche in FFVII doing the same.

some of the comments on here are absolute classics. i have lol at some especially the cole should be like tiger woods. saying his lines in a squeaky voice would be so convincing. or the hammer time comment. both classics.

For me what do people expect stereo types are everywhere , you cant make a die hard 4 with bruce willis fininding god and not firing guns its just not right. Its bs all the guys comments , the only none stereo type charecters are in the matrix neo and morpheus are class and he is not your average black stereo type or what about agent smith the office wearing stereo type.

Gears is guilty of doubleplusungood crimethink. Rewrite fullwise.

I found the G-man in Half-Life to be offensive to people with stutters. I don't have a stutter myself, but I TAKE IT UPON MYSELF TO FEEL AGGRIEVED ON THEIR BEHALF. Which is not in the least bit patronising, surely? HE BELITTLES THEIR PAIN.

look, If they didn't make him a stereotype, nobody would know he was black in the first place.

lol seriously. These types of characters are chosen because people can generally relate to the stereotypes. If this subject hadn't have been brought up for example, it wouldn't have made any difference to me if Marcus had been black, but no, he probably would've got slated for being a tough Black guy...seriously, what a doofus.

Uh oh, Resident Evil 5 is quite deep into its development!

i thought this was only a game myself.. the people in it are the hardest bastards that can be mustard at the time to pin the hope of that world onto - the survivors. what the fuk does he want them to be a bunch of poets and philosophers ? and i too have been on XBL the americans are all absolute tossers for the most part, no idea if they are black or white they all speak like the crazy bastards off jerry springer and i find there ignorance of the rest of the planet limitless and hidious!
the black americans hate the whites for keeping them down -true! half the world hates america for the kind of protectionism and trade bullying that has kept them living in poverty while the americans waste more per day that any race on earth.

i think the section of america that this rant is aimed at has bigger fish to fry than worrying why a marine in a videogame come across like an extra from boys in the fuking hood!

the americans arent paranoid at all - everyone is out to get them!!