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GC: Next generation could see unified console - Dyack News

PC PlayStation 2 Xbox Xbox 360 PlayStation 3 Wii
News by Tom Bramwell

21 August, 2007

Outspoken developer Denis Dyack outlined his vision of a one-console future in a speech at GCDC yesterday, arguing that the history of commoditization in other industries meant the standardisation of gaming hardware was an inevitability - and something we might see as soon as the next cycle of console hardware.

Dyack, president of Too Human developer Silicon Knights, believes that a "unified gaming standard" is on the horizon - and that "just like a DVD, just like a camera, everyone would know what those specs are". It's an argument Dyack has made in public before now, and with an hour of GCDC to fill he seized the opportunity to expand on what he admitted was a contentious point of view. "If you talk about commodification to a hardware manufacturer, they usually turn white," he joked.

In the future, companies like Sony, Microsoft, Toshiba, Samsung, Sharp and Dell would line up to deliver gaming systems of comparable power that supported all gaming software, Dyack predicted. In the rare case of a game that didn't work, "it would be the hardware manufacturer's fault", he said, removing a number of burdens from software developers' shoulders.

This standardisation, as he put it, would mean better hardware at lower prices, the abolition of a first-party product approval service, cheaper development due to the loss of multiple SKUs, resultant lower game prices, and a 100 percent market share for developers to target rather than a range of big fractions marked Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft, which is the current model.

Remarking that he wished he'd "gone back to back" with Stormfront's Don Daglow - because he firmly rejected the idea that the predictable console cycle Daglow identified would recur ad infinitum - Dyack said that the increased difficulty of working within the current business model was symptomatic of "performance over supply" - a strong indicator that commodification is in the offing.

"We've got a bunch of pressures that are now starting to push us to a certain direction," he said of games development. He argued that things like the rising costs of development and staffing needs, a more even split of market share between three platform holders, and the reality that a successful game needs to sell a "frightening" number of units to make back investments, meant that it was "increasingly difficult to be successful".

Equally important, he said, was how little distinction there was between PS3 and Xbox 360 graphics. "We're starting to reach a perceptual threshold where the average consumer can not tell the difference between the next-generation consoles," he argued. "I think this trend's going to continue."

Citing renowned polymath Ray Kurzweil's belief that technological growth will not slow down according to Moore's Law - the belief that the number of transistors on an integrated circuit doubles every 24 months, and that this cannot go on forever - he said other divergent technologies would take over to compensate and that gaming consoles would grow closer still in technical capacity.

But perhaps most importantly, he said, there are simply too many games. "A couple of years ago in November there were 250 games released. There's not enough consumers to play all those games," he told the room, remarking almost exasperatedly that a "normal market" would never produce a situation where Resistance: Fall of Man - Insomniac's PS3 launch shooter - and Epic Games' Gears of War for 360 were not actually competing for the same buyer.

He also challenged the belief that Nintendo Wii will continue its meteoric rise. "With the Wii adoption rate, Nintendo's come out of the gate much faster than anyone expected," he admitted. "Short term, I think everyone agrees Nintendo's doing great - long term, they might not take that bet."

Nor is he convinced that PC gaming has much life left in it. "I think the PC is the ultimate 'no standard', which is the opposite of where I think we're going," he said. "That whole market's going in circles and it's going to go nowhere...Unless there's some kind of standardisation there it's going to get worse and worse."

In a Q&A session following his talk, Dyack said that services like Xbox Live would be able to endure in this one-console future - perhaps akin to the way Blockbuster serves film and television.

Admitting that the interface for a unified console would be a sticking point, he nonetheless said he felt we were "there" with current efforts, and that changes would still be possible.

He also admitted his concern that the commoditization of film pointed to a future where developers were brought together for projects contractually, rather than given full-time positions - something he said that Silicon Knights "would fight" because it was "dehumanising".

Concluding that a one-console future - the title of his talk - was inevitable, he said that the current model would endure for as long as people could afford it, but that once developers and publishers started to find it too difficult to compete, change would occur naturally. "Next generation, you could see people agreeing on one platform," he said. "I think this model, if it occurs, will change everything."

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Comments: 1-50 of 236 in total | next 50 »

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Dreddnaught
21/08/07 @ 07:18
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This isn't the first time someone's gone on about a single unified console, and it won't be the last.

Don't want one.

"We've got a bunch of pressures that are now starting to push us to a certain direction," he said of games development. He argued that things like the rising costs of development and staffing needs, a more even split of market share between three platform holders, and the reality that a successful game needs to sell a "frightening" number of units to make back investments, meant that it was "increasingly difficult to be successful"

That means he's shitting spending 80 mil on the first installment on Too Human and might not make a return.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 21/08/07 @ 08:21
disc
21/08/07 @ 07:19
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Next generation could also see a unified game engine and let anyone make a game as easy as they can cook food.
JonFE
21/08/07 @ 07:24
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It's easy to see the logic behind all this and from the consumer's view it could be a blessing (fanboys excluded), however I don't think that Microsoft, Nintendo or Sony (in alphabetical order) would agree with him.
afghan_jones
21/08/07 @ 07:24
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Sounds bloody awful. Really hope this doesnt happen.

A single unified console would stagnate the market for ages. He uses DVD as an example but look how difficult it is proving for the industry to push HD-DVD or Blu-ray into the mass market.

A standard format means there is little incentive for a hardware manufacturer to take risks and push newer tech.

At present however much the fanboyism of the Console Warz grates on people, it is the high level of competition in the market that forces the big 3 to keep pushing aggressively to take their consoles to new places.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 21/08/07 @ 08:26
Talha
21/08/07 @ 07:25
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Have we seen a unified television? A unified radio? A unified digital camera? A unified handheld gaming console?

I fail to see where is he coming from on this.
presbyterrorion
21/08/07 @ 07:25
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A open standard console with a linux-based OS would be awesome.
afghan_jones
21/08/07 @ 07:27
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@Talha

I think he means if you go out and buy a DVD you know it will work on any DVD player and he wants to be able to buy a game and have it work on any console in effect.

crazyhorse174
21/08/07 @ 07:28
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Have we seen a unified television? A unified radio? A unified digital camera? A unified handheld gaming console?

I fail to see where is he coming from on this.


I agree.

His logic is balls here. On this logic, all games companies will get together to form one company and only release one game for the machine.

Piss off Dyack and concentrate on making games...although I hear your pretty piss at that as well - how long has Too Human been in development? It was originally being developed for the Enigma machine back in 1944 you say...?
Talha
21/08/07 @ 07:29
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In a competitive market, nothing 'unified' can come into being since someone somewhere is always coming up with something new.

Edit: @Afghan: OK, he might mean that - but I don't think that is within the realms of possibility. Because DVD players do not sell on the basis of movies but on features. In their case output is the same. However, in case of consoles, output is inextricably tied to the hardware. You could say a PC fulfils that vision somewhat but that is its own spectacular mess.

Edited 1 times, most recently on 21/08/07 @ 08:34
Dreddnaught
21/08/07 @ 07:31
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"A standard format means there is little incentive for a hardware manufacturer to take risks and push newer tech."

Imagine how boring it would be. How long a lifespan would a single unified console have ? Without the competition of another format, there would be very little drive to develop and expand the tech further.

As much as I loath splashing the cash to fund my obsession, I'd prefer that to a stale single format.

And as for Dyak comparing a single unified console to a camera or dvd, thats ridiculous. yea, everyone knows the specs for a camera, but look how quickly cameras are developing, is that what would happen with a single console ? A new one every six months ?


Eoin
21/08/07 @ 07:33
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Have we seen a unified television? A unified radio? A unified digital camera? A unified handheld gaming console?

Television: we've had two major TV standards for years, but they're not competing, with each enjoying complete dominance in their own territories. Buy any TV, from any manufacturer, and you will be able to watch any TV show that goes over the air in the country that you bought it. This is the model that Dyack is talking about.

Radio: pretty much yes. We have a defined way that radio signals can be sent and a defined range of frequencies that they should be sent over. Buy any radio and you can listen to any (analogue) radio station.

Digital cameras: Not really a relevant example since digital cameras are meant for recording content, not receiving it, and digital cameras are mostly meant to be interoperable with PCs rather than each other, but even then we have DCF and PictBridge.

Handheld games consoles: Dyack's point is sort of that the games market is different, so saying that the games market is different, with all due respect, isn't adding anything to the debate.
HiredMan
21/08/07 @ 07:33
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I reckon ol' Denis had 1 too many La Phroag's before that interview/press release
peasoup
21/08/07 @ 07:33
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How would this work? All dvd players are not created equal....would we have the same scenario with a console?
jack_klugman
21/08/07 @ 07:34
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The console manufacturers could compete on price and additional platform-specific add-ons (Live for example). It'd just be so much easier for developers if they could essentially produce a single SKU which would "just work" across the board.
[maven]
21/08/07 @ 07:35
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How about you leave Too Human out of this, and discuss what he actually said?
I think his argument of commodization is that if performance stops being a differentiating factor (and he assumes we're almost there now with current consoles), then commodization will naturally occur. Obviously, the publishers and developers would be all for this, with the platform holders fighting it all the way because they (and I) can't see much of a way to provide added value that distinguishes theirs from their competitors' offerings.

In general, I find these reports from GCDC quite interesting — I don't necessarily agree, but they provide interesting perspective.
DB2k
21/08/07 @ 07:37
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I think this is the Phantom :)
Talha
21/08/07 @ 07:39
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OK now I sort of see the point - thanks to everyone for clarifying it. But still, I see it more possible in terms of platform/middleware, rather than the actual hardware. Just like flash movies/games do not care which PC they're on.

So yes, he shouldn't have said unified console, rather, a unified gaming standard. I still maintain that innovation will take a noticeable downturn if games are commoditized in such a way.
jack_klugman
21/08/07 @ 07:41
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You already get multiple companies producing DVD players and televisions, all which have to adhere to basic standards, but which are all competing for the same market. In fact one wonders why Microsoft don't simply license out the Xbox name, take a cut of all hardware sales and save themselves costly manufacture.
Sebo
21/08/07 @ 07:42
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This is never going to happen.

But there is an interesting point in there. Developers are finding that there investments are now too big not to get a guaranteed return, he claims.

Maybe the arguments I've heard of a future of Wii-style party titles isn't that far off the mark.

Les
21/08/07 @ 07:44
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This will never work. What’s the incentive for a hardware maker to create such a platform?
DanMW
21/08/07 @ 07:45
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I can't see it happening any time soon (if ever) maybe I'm too narrow minded
Dizzy
21/08/07 @ 07:46
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At least the forums would be peaceful with a unified consoles.
Eoin
21/08/07 @ 07:47
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Obviously, the publishers and developers would be all for this, with the platform holders fighting it all the way because they (and I) can't see much of a way to provide added value that distinguishes theirs from their competitors' offerings.

Well, there's a couple of advantages for the current platform holders too.

Firstly, assuming a DVD-like model, which is the only one that makes sense, we also assume a licensing body and we clearly have to assume that Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony will be key members of that. They'd all get license money from every game released on the single standard.

It might not be as much as they get now, but it would be a much larger market with much less risk. Over the past 10 years or so, we've seen the home console market share of Nintendo take a real beating (possibly recovering now), Sega's completely vanish, and Sony's under real threat.

Secondly, a single standard would reduce (and distribute) the cost of research and development of a console, and mean greater economies of scale for hardware manufacturers.

Thirdly, as far as added value goes, look what DVD player manufacturers have done. We have DVD players that just do basic playback, portable players, DVD drives in PCs, high-end players, and superconvergent devices that do everything. There's no reason why a single games hardware standard couldn't produce the same kind of thing.

Imagine a Nintendo model that just played the games and nothing else, a Sony model that played the games but also music, movies, photos, etc, a HP model where the player was built into a PC, a portable Creative model that was was also an MP3 player....lots of differentiation there.
peasoup
21/08/07 @ 07:48
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No way Dizzy, no doubt we'd have "well my panasonic Unified console has HDMI 2.2 your Sanyo only has 1.9..pffff"
Sebo
21/08/07 @ 07:51
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Actually, that's a fair point about the basic standard.

If developers were given a basic standard to develop to, and Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo incorporated it into their machines it would save the developers a hell of a lot of time and money on making ports, thus making them more profitable and hopefully in turn meaning better games and quicker turn arounds.

But then this is potential suicide for any of the three console manufacturers because they are then competing on a totally level playing field. I can't see them handing over the keys to the kingdom.


Eoin
21/08/07 @ 07:52
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In fact one wonders why Microsoft don't simply license out the Xbox name, take a cut of all hardware sales and save themselves costly manufacture.

Right now I suspect it's because it would be difficult for other companies to pay the licensing costs, sell the Xbox 360 for the same price as it is now, and still make a profit. There's also the consideration that Microsoft, competing as they are in a difficult market, do for the moment need a unified brand.

It's still an interesting question though, and if this ever does happen, I can see Microsoft being the initiators of it.

What’s the incentive for a hardware maker to create such a platform?

I'm not sure how much the PS3 cost Sony, but certainly hundreds of millions of dollars/pounds/Euro. Under the current model, they're probably going to spend that again next generation. And the one after that, and the one after that....

For what? How many more generations of 50-times-more-powerful consoles do we need?
Dreddnaught
21/08/07 @ 07:54
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@ Eoin

So what happens if the big 3 of Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo put their heads together and create a next gen unified console that will play any game.

What happens in 3 years time when Sony and Microsoft decide, "hey, we want to upgrade, make the machine better, capable of better grafix !"

Nintendo goes, "actually no, there's plenty of life left in the system, and we're JUST reaching the point where we're getting the best out of it "(which we all know is true for any console)

Because, out of the 3, theres a majority, would a new console have to be created ? or would Sony or Microsoft sneak away with a lot of internal R&D and create a new own branded console that wipes the floor with the unified one ?

Greed is good.
JohnnyWashnGo
21/08/07 @ 07:55
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3DO?
sickpuppysoftware
21/08/07 @ 07:57
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3 letters - 3DO

edit - SNAP!
Edited 1 times, most recently on 21/08/07 @ 09:05
squarejawhero
21/08/07 @ 07:59
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It's kind of inevitable that the games world will follow towards a contractual method of development. Simply put as games have become more expensive, keeping people on rolling projects (unless you're a massive studio like EA) isn't financially viable and will lead to studio closures. Studios have already closed or laid off swathes of staff purely because of this - it doesn't make sense to keep people on you're not using. AFAIK many production artists (not 3D artists) and writers are still hired as freelancers. The thing is not all studios are funded as well as SK and will no doubt keep a core group together (producers, art director, lead designer) and crew up as needed.

To do it any other way, unless you've got money coming out of your ears, is impractical.
Xiaokiraa
21/08/07 @ 08:00
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So long as I can still play games on my PC I don't really care.
mazzl
21/08/07 @ 08:02
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i think one console could be great,
just agree on some kind of minimal spec, and brands can do there own things from there on.
and if it evolves to slow, you will see sony or nintendo or ms doing there own thing again. i'm all for.
PlugMonkey
21/08/07 @ 08:03
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"In the rare case of a game that didn't work, "it would be the hardware manufacturer's fault", he said, removing a number of burdens from software developers' shoulders."

So as a developer, the hardware manufacturers would be responsible for the config testing of my game, and if it didn't work then it would be up to them to modify the hardware? Doesn't sound likely. Trying to make a game for multiple versions of a unified hardware would be like the config testing nightmare of PC development multiplied by the config testing nightmare of mobile phone development.

"Have we seen a unified television?"

Erm, yes. Last time I checked, I pick up the same programs regardless of what brand of telly I own. That's pretty much exactly what he means. Lots of different console manufacturers making consoles that all play the same content.
Mentalist(air)
21/08/07 @ 08:04
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If this generation had seen a single standard platform agreed between a consortium of the industry's current top players, then Wii would not exist. I could rest my case there, but I won't. The sort of reasoning Dyack is using there is exactly the same as Trip Hawkins used before trying to sell the world the 3DO. And they ended up with their format dead, trying to push ever-shittier Army Men games upon the world until they ran out of money.

In any case, it seems like open standards are a thing of the past. Whereas in the past we had CD and DVD, the next generation of music comes as MP3, WMA, AAC, Sony's format (I forget its name) with maybe one of several types of DRM built into them. And even disc-based HD video has two competing standards, let alone various download services or on-demand rentals from TV services.

and finally, he suggests:

the abolition of a first-party product approval service

The system pioneered by Nintendo to make sure console owners didn't have to put up with quite the level of buggy and otherwise problematic mess that PC gamers have to deal with? The thing that restored confidence in videogames as a whole in the largest market in the world after the early 80s slump? The thing that ensures the likes of Xbox Live (or even just the function of the start button in menus) are integrated consistently across all titles so users can benefit from familiar experiences, and not be subject to obtuse and ill-thought through basic functionality?

Dennis Dyack has comprehensively proved himself to be an idiot in this statement. Any shred of respect I may have had for him (bearing in mind that i already thought of him as a whining little bitch, who couldn't take lukewarm previews) has evaporated.

I hope Epic fuck his ass raw in court now.


Edit: typo
Edited 1 times, most recently on 21/08/07 @ 09:05
chicknstu
21/08/07 @ 08:05
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It would be great for developers and all... but not so great for consumers / gamers. Because there'd be no competition between console brands, because there'd be no motive them to 'up their game plan', improve their hardware, or fund independant new IP.
ZeroAX
21/08/07 @ 08:06
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pc gaming is unifed and you call it dead. wii is bringing new customers (my girlfriend started with wii sports played rayman then excite truck(a REAL game as you would call it) and now is playing all the kirby games she can find) and you say it's going to fail. man this guy only accepts his own ideas and brinds up things that come from the top of his head to support them. idiot imo.



unified would not work cause it'll just be a pc in a box.
Steroyd
21/08/07 @ 08:07
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I think he means if you go out and buy a DVD you know it will work on any DVD player and he wants to be able to buy a game and have it work on any console in effect.

Good look getting the three to agree on the same specs to run said games.

Nevermind sharing the R&D to make such a console.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 21/08/07 @ 09:07
jiveguy
21/08/07 @ 08:09
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Won't this just lead to the situation we see in PC gaming where some games require certain versions of an OS or graphics library to work? Won;t some manufacturers be constantly adding new features to differentiate themselves? And while they might not be part of some standard, games producers might come along and try to use them in some way and consumers just end up with a PC like arms race, trying to keep up or get fed up and give up on the thing.

Edit: In the time it's taken me to write this it looks like some of these questions have been addressed :)
Edited 1 times, most recently on 21/08/07 @ 09:10
Steroyd
21/08/07 @ 08:13
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i dunno, teh demise of fanboyz sounds good to meh :-D

no-one can argue with them apples!


Are you shitting me this wouldn't eliminate fanbois, instead of Console warz we'd just have Game warz neverthless.

Ma Killzone betta than ur Halo, no Fifa iz betta dan Pro Evo (which we already frikken get), LocoRoco pwns katamary etc etc. Hell it could escalate to Publisher fanboyz, Nintedo Games are the shit while Microsoft games are shit lolilollol.

There will always be fanboyz.
Sebo
21/08/07 @ 08:14
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Would Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo sell more of their machines if there was a basic standard. I'm 100 percent certain the answer is no.

In fact, all three of them would lose out because if there was a basic standard other manufacturers, the likes of Samsung, Nokia etc would jump in on the market and grab their slice, thus reducing the traditional threes share of the pie.

So although I appreciate it's a dream scenario for developers, because they get the widest audience they can with a reduced amount of outlay, it's never going to happen for them.



haowan
21/08/07 @ 08:19
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The PC is already like this, in a way. And now we have various CG languages for drawing graphics by using Shaders, which is the kind of standard this man is talking about. I think it's a good idea personally.
Rev. Stuart Campbell
21/08/07 @ 08:21
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Christ, gamers are stupid.

- Isn't it great to have to spend nearly £1,000 if you want to play all this generation's best software instead of just a fraction of it?

- Isn't it great that developers have to spend half their time rewriting the same game for multiple formats instead of developing brilliant new games?

- Isn't it great that fantastic games only make half as much money as they might do, slashing the rewards that their creators get?

- Isn't it great that we all have to go through this cycle of expensive purchasing every five years in order to get a fractional increase in graphical performance, because we ALL know that graphics are more important than gameplay?

- Wouldn't it be awful to still have to endure the eye-watering hideousness of games like Shenmue, Soul Calibur and Halo?

- Where would we be without this constant "aggressive innovation" from the hardware manufacturers? We'd still be living in some awful caveman world where, for example, the DS was more popular than the vastly technically superior PSP.

A unified format wouldn't affect the introduction of the Wii, because the Wii isn't in competition with the 360 or the PS3 in any sane person's mind, any more than your TV is in competition with your hi-fi. A single format is great news for gamers, great news for developers, great for innovative gameplay and great for jobs. The only people it's bad for are the hardware manufacturers, who can't steal 25% of the price of every game sold and would have to come up with a more sensible business model, like the manufacturers of every other kind of hardware do, and still seem to make a profit out of.

Unfortunately, as long as the gaming market chiefly comprises idiot fanboys and tech-whores such as those infesting this thread, quoting polygon counts and teraflops at each other in an embarrassing playground dick-waving contest, we'll keep getting screwed. Let's hope the Wii finally smashes through to the mainstream audience - as it's doing fairly spectacularly so far - and consigns these nerds to the dustbin of history.
Dreddnaught
21/08/07 @ 08:22
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PC gaming ISN'T unified.

Are you saying my 3 year old PC will be able to play Crysis ?

PC's are constantly evolving because the games require more and more to run them.
moggsy
21/08/07 @ 08:24
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It's been tried before by Microsoft of all companies - anyone heard of the MSX? It didn't work out too well unfortunately.

Maybe it's time has come again, and this time it will be successful?
Edited 1 times, most recently on 21/08/07 @ 09:25
woodnotes
21/08/07 @ 08:26
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The Wii's success so far this generation goes to prove that we're still a million miles away from a 'standard'. All three console manufacturers have their own direction, 1st party studios and interests, and that isn't going to change in the forseeable future. Not unless two out of the three manufacturers dramatically pull out of the market, anyway. And that won't happen. One, maybe, but not two - if one drops out it automatically gives both the others more marketshare.
moggsy
21/08/07 @ 08:27
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Would Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo sell more of their machines if there was a basic standard. I'm 100 percent certain the answer is no.

They generally make a loss on hardware so this is no big deal. In fact I'm sure they'd love the fact that they didn't have to manufacture the hardware - especially MS.
woodnotes
21/08/07 @ 08:28
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@ Moggsy - yes, the MSX, although x86-based computers are no different - they all run Windows. Even the Sony Vaio and Apple Mac.

"They generally make a loss on hardware so this is no big deal. In fact I'm sure they'd love the fact that they didn't have to manufacture the hardware - especially MS. "

Then they might aswell be a third party publisher. But they want to own the hardware so they get the license fees for every third party game sold on their platform. So they can make revenue from Xbox Live. So they can make huge profits on accessories like play & charge, 120gb HD. So they can make profits on delivering multimedia content like films, XBLA games, etc. There's so much profit to be made if you can just get the hardware right, and that's something they're learning.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 21/08/07 @ 09:30
All_the_girly_men
21/08/07 @ 08:28
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"Let's hope the Wii finally smashes through to the mainstream audience - as it's doing fairly spectacularly so far - and consigns these nerds to the dustbin of history."

Amen, brother!
Dreddnaught
21/08/07 @ 08:29
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@ Rev.

Of course the Wii is in competition with the 360 and the PS3, it's a video games system after all, it's the same market.

But then you go and say you hope the Wii crushes both of them to get to the mainstream audience, which the other 2 have failed to do.

Make your mind up man.
NegativeZero
21/08/07 @ 08:29
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Have we seen a unified television?

Yes. PAL and NTSC are both examples. Multiple manufacturers make a device that handles one or two standards.

A unified radio?

Yes. The signal is encoded in the same way. Multiple manufactuers make a device that handles one or two standards.

A unified digital camera?

Yes. They all take photos in standardised formats - RAW and JPEG mainly. Multiple manufactuers make a device that handles one or two standards.

A unified handheld gaming console?

Again, yes. Java games on cellphones.

On a more pertinent level, most portable devices use ARM processors and almost every desktop PC uses a processor which interprets x86 instruction codes.

It seems to me that what Dyack is really saying is that he sees a future where there are a few console 'standards' or baselines, and multiple companies may make products that conform to that standard. Games made to that standard are expected to play the same on any hardware that meets it. It's the same approach that's used in manufacture of TVs, CD players, DVD players and everything else.

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