Fable II Post-Mortem Comments by Christian Donlan

i also sacrified the dogg, do regret it, but am playing through the game now as evil in local co-op and am playing it now more as a real hack slash game. loads of fun. do miss the option to set the difficulty up. fights are to easy. local co-op is really nice.
* the fight's should have combo's
* don't really like the expression system, it's a bit childish
* love the bread crums trail
* why is their money in the game? just to force you into the property management thing?
* put a property management menu in there....
* loved the colourfull world, graphics and all that

"* put a property management menu in there.... "

Too right. I didn't do ANYTHING with furniture, as it was clearly going to be a pain in the arse. And having to trek around looking for stuff I hadn't bought yet in each town (still doing it I suppose) was hardly a flowing experience.

Okay, I finished the game last night, so I have some things to say about the "choice".

SPOILERS, all of it:

I'm betting there are a lot of people like me who chose "Sacrifice" and wish they didn't. I knew I'd be losing my dog permanently, so I'm not complaining about that. Although actually, I WILL complain: there are now things in the game I can't get because I don't have a dog to dig them. After I got back to Albion I bought Farmer Giles's house and it had a dungeon attached, which was a 15-minute grind with hollow men, and what was at the end of it? An empty room. I was so perplexed that I looked at a guide online, which said your dog is supposed to dig here to find a secret "master" weapon. It doesn't work if you dig on your own. Thanks Mr Molyneux! You couldn't have tweaked it so that buried rewards are above-soil when the player has lost their dog? No?

The trouble with the choices is that any moral person will think "Sacrifice" is more important. Thousands of people who were worked to death in slavery, or my dog? Hmm, no choice at all. But then you aren't rewarded by seeing the game world change at all. Oh, they erect a statue, but apart from the chunky base, it's still just human-sized like all the others. And it's tucked away in a corner of Bowerstone Old Town. Where is the influx of new Albion citizens? Why doesn't it affect any of the towns at all?

The "Love" option could have been clearer. When I went to deal with Lucien, I had a lesbian wife (who I had stopped caring about), and a loving husband and children (who I really did care about). Lucien said that he killed my WIFE, and I thought, "Oh that's okay, I never even see her any more. At least you didn't touch my husband and kids." So when I was given the "Love" choice at the end, it didn't seem like I was losing anybody except my dog. But when I got back to Albion, I was dismayed to find all families dead. Mr Molyneux, why didn't you get Lucien to say: "I killed all your husbands and wives and children"? Would have been clearer.

All of those sound like bugs to me. Shit ones, but bugs all the same. The husbands/wives oversight in particular is a bit clumsy.

"I get what you're saying, and I'm probably wrong about this, but it seems like you approached the game with a pre-concieved notion about how to "properly" play it, and it didn't fit into Fable 2 correctly."

So, I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I think I was playing the game by letting my character develop completely organically, but then at the end of the game all that ended and was replaced by a jarringly contrived good/bad decision. As I said, to take the 'keep the dog' option would have meant completely abandoning my organic character development and making a completely cynical decision as a 'gamer' rather than a 'character'.

If I'm feeling any emotional 'loss', I'm again feeling it outside the game, if that makes any sense. I feel more like I did when my Final Fantasy VII save corrupted and I had to start again, as opposed to the emotion I felt when Aeris died. (Do I really need to put that in a 'spoiler'? Better safe than sorry, I suppose. :D)

I'm not missing the character of my dog, I'm frustrated because I'm not doing this:

"I've played more of the game, completed more of the quests, since me and Lord Lucien had our sit-down than. I've become convinced the "main" quest was only there to provide enough direction so that by the time it ended you were firmly evolving as a character in Albion, and now you're established enough that the game can become more "sandbox" than "epic RPG"."

Because I've lost a load of functionality that made the game easy/fun to play, and if I want it back I have to start the game again. By contrast, when Aeris died I wasn't just gutted because I was going to have to train up a new support class character to take into battles, I was gutted because she was one of my favourite characters.

I just know someone who hasn't been paying attention is now going to say "Why didn't you save the dog then? You made the choice and now you're crying about the consequences."

If I choose saving the dog just to keep the game being fun, then the game's already clunky morality system chokes its final death rattle. If I lose the dog, I lose the fun sandbox endgame element. Catch 22. PM seems to think this final decision worked and worked well. I found it forced and contrived, and anybody who is properly role-playing as anything other than a selfish cad end up with a game that is massively less fun. I don't really see that as proof that it was a triumph, as a lot of other people seem to.

Still a great game mind, and I'll be getting the DLC, but if PM thinks everyone really liked the ending (as he said in this interview) then I want to set him straight on a few things. ;)

After all this time, I see your point.

You lose the dog because that is what your character would do, but instead of the only (potentially) "negative" result being the emotional impact of that choice burning a hole in your heart, an accompanying far more contrived and "gamey" result is that you can no longer find random stuff to dig up or be guided to treasure chests (which in turn makes the game less fun, but for the wrong reason).

I think earlier talk of the archaeologists quest being broken kind of confused things. Nothing is broken as a result of losing the dog, but the emotional impact of losing man's best friend can't be seperated from the "number crunching" impact of losing a game sub-mechanic. And after reflection I agree that this dilutes and confuses the fundamental choice the player is being asked to make.


... after a bit more reflection, this is perhaps still like real life but with a different balance. If exactly the same choice existed in real life, the emotional loss of a dog would still be apparent AND the functional loss of your best sheep herder would also be apparent. But perhaps the emotional loss would count for more than the loss of the sheep herder?

Is perhaps the very root of all of this that PM chose not to let you get a different dog? I suppose in real life you might go out and find another good treasure hunter dog, which would never really mean as much to you in your heart as your original Dave-the-dog, but would at least still get the job done? Would it have made the choice even more profound, if the only penalty for the player was a purely emotional one?

I've thought about this a bit more, and I've changed my mind almost completely I think.

It actually feels now as if PM wanted people to sometimes choose the dog over all of the people of Albion, because this would reinforce his idea that players would genuinely fall in lonve with the dog.... BUT its like he secretly didn't believe that would be the case, and so he loaded the dice by making it such that a player who revives the dog also gets back their various treasure hunting mechanics too.

Its as if he could point at a player reviving the dog and say "Look, the bond between player and dog was so strong the player sacrificed all those people, even though they had been playing a good and pure character up until that time". And then hope the player doesn't pipe up and say "naaah, I just wanted the treasure hunting mechanic back 'cos I haven't got all of the silver keys yet".

Hmmmm.

I got the bit with Theresa - she's obviously going to turn on you. I felt it was a bit cheap though - kind of an anti-climax. Reminded me a bit of Crackdown where you find out you're the vanguard of a police state.

To make up for it I decided to rampage through the capital killing everyone I could find, including the re-spawning guards. From 100% good to 100% evil in about 15 mins.

Does anyone know an equally quick way to get back to 100% good? I can't open a demon door 'cos I need a particular expression that I won't get unless I am 50% good (I am currently about 95% evil).

I killed all the temple of light dudes ages ago and I'm not sure what other regular activity I can do that will get me in good order. I'm scoffing tofu as fast as I can, but that shit doesn't exactly grow on trees.

re. theresa
she already has turned on you. The reason Lucien tries to kill you in the starting sequence is he was given a prediction that he would be killed by a hero. The reason you want to kill him, is him killing your sister. Just think on top of hero hill towards the end of the game Lucien says something along the lines of "I've always done just what she (Theresa) told me to".
Then think about Luciens diary (translated by Theresa) Did it not seem like large portions where left out. ie. the reason for him wanting to kill you, why he cared if Garth was one of the three. Lucien was a pawn, played (along with you) by theresa. She played him into building the spire and she played you into getting the spire for her. He was a rubbish end boss. He wasn't rubbish because it wasn't a standard boss fight with me waiting for him to open his mouth or some other rubbish weak point, he was rubbish because he was a nobody.
Really the end choice was a minor gripe for me. The total and utter lack of any finality in the game annoyed me far more. There's a ridiculous amount of unfinished business in the world. (Knothole Glade, that other town in the original fable with snow around the place, the northern islands with Scythe, restoring Oakvale, meeting up with Garth, Hammer, and Stephen Fry at later points and Rose if you picked the love option or do you get a letter from her regardless of your choice? ).
Someone used Star Wars as a defence for this episodic content. But the first film tied up all its loose ends, and all the story lines it had begun. It could stand on its own and be a complete story. The second was advertised as a part of trilogy and they never tried to decieve anyone into thinking that it was going to finish off the star wars story.
Fable 2 did, it was never called Fable 2 - episode 1, which it basically is. It was priced as a full price game, it was always represented as a full game and its not.
The part of Fable I loved was realising I could crap myself, staying drunk throughout the hobbe cave occasionally stopping to puke on guy who lost kid, stiking fear in my enemies with a dreaded sock puppet show, basically the expressions.Having a gang bang with a half dozen women, collecting STD's and sharing them with wife (she gave me the first one so she deserves it, never marry a prostitute).
But the main story line was ... who knows i'll judge it when they bother finishing it. The fighting was easy, but quite enjoyable. The people of albion are a disaster, there incredibly annoying, and with the odd exception (bards, lute player in Bower Old Town, Storyteller in Gypsy camp) vacuous. They seem to have a hive mind - If one hates you they all hate you (I'm actually going to attempt to completely and utterly wipe them out today, anyone know if its possible). Breadcrumb trail was fine, you can turn it off if it bothers you and its a nice option. For every part they did well they made a monumental cock up
end essay ... sorry

@ kangarootoo

Give some money to a beggar, think 1k = 1 good

GET IN! Cheers dude.

Man, that beggar is going to be frickin' delighted to see me.

Mine wasn't gave her 500k and she said thanks gave her another 500k and she said 'meh, you've already given me money' or something to that extent. The dreaded sock puppets of death came out at that point.

But perhaps the emotional loss would count for more than the loss of the sheep herder?

Is perhaps the very root of all of this that PM chose not to let you get a different dog?

That thought occurred to me too. If the dog (or indeed any of the people) had a bit more personality, then I might feel the loss a bit more and they wouldn't have to remove all dog functionality to get the point across. If I'd had to train my dog like a Black and White creature instead of reading a book to him I'd have much more of an investment in him. They could give me a new dog, but I'd have to retrain him and he'd never be quite the same, so I'd feel the loss and it would be set in a far better context. The fact that I'm now the king of Albion and can't find another hound at any price just makes it seem even more forced.

Re: virtuosity. As well as giving money to beggars, you could also have massive adulterous gang bangs - as long as you wear a rubber. Having a three in a bed romp with a married woman and two prostitutes was apparently so 'virtuous' it caused me to sprout a fucking halo!

@kaya08

Nuts. Sounds like they may have capped the "good" benefit available so that millionaires can't just buy their way into heaven.

@PlugMonkey

"If the dog (or indeed any of the people) had a bit more personality, then I might feel the loss a bit more"

I found this to be completely the case with my short lived wife. I got married, but found the experience utterly hollow (not sure quite what I was expecting, but there you go) as she was no different to every other person who would declare their undying love for me just because I had let off in my pants and dusted the strongs of a banjo for 5 seconds.

So I took her on a one way day trip to the Temple of Shadows (ahes, if anyone is interested in the outcome) and consequently the authorities took away my offspring (which actually did make me feel a bit bad, even though I had never seen the wee nipper's face). As soon as I got back into town from my jolly day of coporate murder, I had 3 or 4 villagers all vying to be her replacement because they liked the look of my posh trousers. "Where is the love?" I asked myself.

Cheers for the gangbang tip as well. I guess so long as one legitimate spouse is present it is considered to be a holy act. Though I might write the Pope and ask if he agrees before I run it by my girlfriend, just for extra leverage.

My good character was rewarded for keeping the shadow seal by getting bright red eyes. I've heard of other people having flies flying around their character despite having morality and purity maxed, some of the characteristics seem to be independent of morality / purity sliders.

@kangarootoo

Did it not work, I went from 100% evil to 100% good in two donations. (both 500k)

Also with the dog's personality I found the more attention you paid to him, the more personality (and skills) he got.
Like I spent about an hour one day getting him to piss on town guards. After a while he just started doing it on his own accord. Also if you reward him after finding chests / dig spots / silver keys his 'sensor' range grows bigger and if you reward him at the end of fights when he finishes off a downed enemy he becomes more aggressive.

I've not tried the beggar thing (I'm at work). I was just guessing they might have capped it. I'll give it a shot sometime over the weekend, and I'm sure all will be well.

Btw, does anyone know where I can buy a strumpet's skirt and a farmer's hat (in the game, obviously)?

"Cheers for the gangbang tip as well. I guess so long as one legitimate spouse is present it is considered to be a holy act. Though I might write the Pope and ask if he agrees before I run it by my girlfriend, just for extra leverage."

Oh god, no. She wasn't my wife. She just happened to be in a house I was robbing. And the prostitutes just kept following me round everywhere and refused to leave, so I thought 'what the hell'. Woke up with a halo. Quite a night that must have been.

I never married, for the same reasons as you state. When almost every woman in the kingdom is throwing themselves at me, and the few that remain can be convinced if I just change my hat, there didn't seem to be any particular reason to pick one in particular. There's just no difference apart from a few different adjectives when you view their details.

This made the final decision even more skewed I guess, as I didn't have a family. My generally good natured character was basically being asked to damn thousands of people in order to save his dog, who by this stage must have been at least 35 years old. That's 245 in dog years. He deserved to go and live on that nice big farm my parents told me about.

kaya08 - Thinking about it, if my dog was replaced by a crap dog who refused to fight and spent half the time getting me to dig up bones, I would actually miss my old dog more wile still retaining the basic dog functionality.

"Oh god, no. She wasn't my wife. She just happened to be in a house I was robbing"

Lol. Hehehe, that tickled me.

I spent a ridiculously long time messing around with my dog. I could live without the functionality, the dig spots by and large are pretty worthless, it would be losing one of the very few personalities in the world and basically an extension of my character that I would've missed.

EDIT: sturmpet skirt (or tart skirt) is in bloodstone clothing shop. Farmer hat (or yokel hat) is in Oakfield clothing shop btw

Whoohoo!

You are a mine of info. With my yokel hussy like clothing and mad crazy charity givin' skilz, I shall be the talk of the town (insert pun about it opening doors here).

I called my dog Ross Kemp

@ kanga:

AS far as I know, the quickest way to max good or evil is drop or jack rents/prices as far as possible, assuming you have lots of property. Haven't tried this myself, but I've been told that this will flip the morality scale rapidly, again assuming you've accumulated lots of property.

edit: . . . although max morality swing in 2 donations to beggars certainly trumps this pain-in-the-ass method for rapidity and simplicity. Okay, 2nd fastest way?

@ squeaky:

can't get weapon under farm: that might not be a mising dog thing, but rather a glitch thing. I've still got poochie, cleared every goddamn inch of the dungeon, and no dig prompt. Stepped on all the trigger plates, killed all hollow men . . . nothing.

Anybody lose Poochie and still get the weapon under the farm?

@Plug:

Hmmmmm . . . . I'm deeply conflicted at this point -- darn you and you cogent, valid argument! This is teh Interwebs, for God's sake!

My confusion seems to be based on the fact that I agree with what you say, but don't end up at the same feeling, and I'm not clear as to why that is. Everything you point out is a true and real deficiency in the game, no doubt. I guess I just ended up feeling different at the end, which may well be strongly related to Poochie still being around. (I wuvs my Poochie-Woochie! Wes I do! Who's a good Poochie?)

Maybe if you chose "Sacrifice" a big Poochie statue in the center of Bowerstone to pull the heartstrings every time you stop by? Or paintings on walls in every home, to follow you with painted eyes whenever you go into someone's house? Or mabye occasionally in the woods or a dungeon, you hear a faint barking, or catch a glimpse of Poochie in the distance, but can never catch him? Something to make it more of an emotionally painful consequence as opposed to just "no more digging up crap". And there certainly should be more of a payoff for the decision -- the ressurected townsfolk build you a unique, magical house, eclusive additional quests, etc.

Loss of functionality without a replacement or comparable addition is a flaw, agreed and no argument. I guess I've decided that 98% of the stuff Poochie finds is useless/worthless/pointless at this stage (another meatpie? Thanks Poochie . . . you're the greatest!), so losing that didn't feel like it would change the game from "fun" to "not fun" to me. I felt like the greatest benefit of Poochie is like Kara said -- he's the only damn character (aside from the Heroes) that has more depth than Paper Mario, and he's the only character I control the evolution of: I ignored him completely for a day or so, then noticed that not only wasn't he alerting to anything, but his tail stayed between his legs, he whinedat me if I stood stil too long, etc. I felt guilty and spent an hour playing fetch and giving treats, and he sprang back to life . . . but became a complete wimp and constantly demanded I play with him. It was a refreshingly wierd dynamic in a game -- here were demonstrable, impactful changes in a game character, than frankly didn't have any effect on the actual gameplay, just changed how I thought about the character. It seemed like a unique aspect to Fable2, that I was spending time on "irrevelant" aspects and received satisfaction from it. Still, you're certainly illustrating a painful and glaring defeciency in the game.

@kaya and her spoiler plot explanation:

Man, I hope you're wrong, although you make a persuasive argument. I hope you're wrong . . .

. . . not because it's not a good "story" twist but because that just seems like a complete peversion of the Teresa character from the 1st game. Granted, she wasn't too well developed as a character, and what little we did learn certainly didn't make her a saint, but she didn't give any suggestion of "mad despot in training", which seems like what your hypothesis would have required. I liked her being amoral and self-serving in the first . . . I'd have to see a HELL of a substantial explanation to justify her turning into an Evil Ultimate Baddie.

But yeah, I totally missed the connections you pegged. Good eyes.

Hmmmmm . . . . I'm deeply conflicted at this point -- darn you and you cogent, valid argument! This is teh Interwebs, for God's sake!

Heh heh. Sorry. I'm not playing by the rules. ;)

I reckon if I'd chosen the 'save the dog' ending I probably might feel differently as well. I don't think I made my initial point very well either - which was more about the final choice being rather forced and contrived than the fallout of sacrificing the dog, which really just compounded the issue.

If I'd lost the dog for a better reason, I wouldn't have minded the consequence as much. If sacrificing the dog was less of a handicap, I wouldn't have minded the decision being so contrived.

Don't know if anyone is still reading this.

I found that massive beggar donations made me good but not moral. A price drop of most of my Bloodstone properties did the trick though after I came back to the game after a few days away. So my character that used to be super evil and corrupt is now a bastion of saintlyness. And I finally ate enough celery that he isn't all fat anymore too (not suggesting being fat is evil OR corrupt btw).

@busboy33

"can't get weapon under farm: that might not be a mising dog thing, but rather a glitch thing. I've still got poochie, cleared every goddamn inch of the dungeon, and no dig prompt. Stepped on all the trigger plates, killed all hollow men . . . nothing.

Anybody lose Poochie and still get the weapon under the farm?"

This one bugged out on me at first too: once I left the dungeon and cam back in, the "dig spot: activated my dog straightaway.