Fable II Post-Mortem Comments by Christian Donlan

Generic comment asking for the rest of the game now please

*yawn*

So those three choices at the end, albeit simple, were very engaging.

Not for me it wasn't. It was a massive let down.

And seriously, can I have my dog back now? I was planning on finishing stuff like the archeologist quest, but now I can't because the choice I made at the end of the story has broken my game.

Great interview, helped mostly by the fact that PM gives great copy. More power to him, I say. Fable 2 was great.

Good interview. Nice job EG.

>but now I can't because the choice I made at the end of the story has broken my game.

Should have made another choice then. You are responsible for your actions.

Peter Molyneux: It was definitely part of the pacing. A lot of games and films have this arc which is always the same: the baddies get tougher, the weapons get bigger, you're building yourself up for a really big fight and then everyone dies, and that's it. We wanted to mix it up and make it more unexpected.

Umm, thats called a RPG you tosspot.. this is one gamer who will never play a Peter Bolloxyneux game ever again.

The main problem with fable is that the storytelling is absolutely appauling. The story itself is so bog standard and simple it's embarrassing. Peter Molyneux and his team have showed once again their total lack of understanding of narative and the way stories work. They spend millions of pounds and man hours on perfecting moss in stone walls and skip over the thing that could elevate their games righ to the top.

I was so dissapointed with Fable it is untrue. A wonderfully designed world that was ultimately shallow and entirely unrewarding. I don't know why Lion Head seem to feel that NPC's that you can't interact with in any meaningful way add to the atmosphere in a world and the way quests just appeared in your log was frankly shocking. Everything about it just reminded me that this was a game, at no point did it ever feel like i was in an interesting world I wanted to discover or at the heart of a great story. I knew there WAS nothing to discover. Choices were presented to you ni such abrupt and badly thought out fashion. The shadow court is a case in point. Great idea, introduced terribly with the choice presented to you clumsy and badly thought out. The choice had no meaning. you didn't know the girl, she had never been introduced before. Even the worst novelist can tell you that is just plain bad.

Until games designers realise that they need to employ the services of serious professional writers who actually know about character development and how to tell even vaguely original stories this is going to happen time and time again.

10/10 Eurogamer? Seriously - shame on you. Scores like this only reinforce the view that video games are immature and unsophisticated. They could be so, so much more.

More big words from the man who makes so-so games

Actions speak louder, no?

Ugh...any comments section talking about PM or Fable immediately turn to shite. Probably by a bunch of people who've never even played Fable, either.

Being a 360 owner, I for one am happy to have PM on my side!

Loved the game! Looking forward to going through it again - only this time I'm bringing my dog back! I'm guessing the dog will be useful in the upcoming DLC. Also, I can't get the completionist achieve, so I need the lil' moggy to give him the expression item from pub games. Next time, all the suckers who got roped in to building the spire are not coming back!

So you can't die. But, at the same time I really didn't want scars!!! ha ha. I think getting knocked out in Fab2 is worse than getting killed and not having any real consequence other than replaying the last save point. My face was a mess by the end.

Thank you Peter and everyone else involved - fantastic game! Oh, and cheers for dishing out Pub Games codes on Lionheads blog.

Good interview. Nice job EG.

>but now I can't because the choice I made at the end of the story has broken my game.

Should have made another choice then. You are responsible for your actions.

Hmm. Breaking the game was not highlighted as one of the consequences of my actions, and it wasn't as a consequence of my actions anyway, it was as a consequence of an arbitrary and highly contrived decision I was forced to make, none of options of which made any real sense. Had it been as a result of my actions, something might have come of me repeatedly shooting that Stephen Fry voiced **** in the back of the head through the whole final section of the game. But no. That wasn't allowed.

Also, I sacrificed THAT dog. There must be another one somewhere in this blighted kingdom. A semi-tame balverine would do.

The upshot is that I would right now still be playing the game if I could, as it is I'm not because it's broken. If that's the effect Molyneux was going for then good for him. It worked.

That last bit about the sense of wonder is spot on; here's hoping.

The game was fantastic, and I absoloutely loathed the first one.

Good work, Pete. Now... can I have my dog back? PLEASE?!

well i liked it anyway

I loved F2, it's a bit short but one of te highlights this year.

I think you can still finish the Arch quests without the dog. just follow the line I heard, it will tell you when you need to dig.

The shadowcourt girl was actually pretty cool, who cares if you knew her or not, she's still fucked, or you are. It actually felt more engaging because I didn't know her, saves me some crying cutscene. It wouldn't make any sense if you knew her in the story as well, it's a big world, would be a huge coincedence if you did. Thta would be bad storywriting right there. Not everything has to tie together in a story.

Loved Fable 2.

Felt I needed to comment to balance out the bullshit from just about everyone else so far.

I think he gave some honest answers which is refreshing for once. I'm holding out on buying ths because my brothers version broke. I've not read up on the problem but it's quite widespread, right? Seems a shame because I think it looks stunning!

@ Plugmonkey

The game isn't broken because you can't complete a quest. That is one of the consequences of the choices you made. It wouldn't really mean much if you can make any choices you wanted to and not have to face any consequences for those actions. I'm sure if that were the case, you'd complain about that too.

Play the game again and choose something else. It's not that difficult and you've probably bitched and moaned about it so much to this point that you could've easily just done it over again and saved yourself some time - and us some grief.

Absolutely fantastic game with more charm and humour than every other release this year put together. Very deserving of it's 10/10.

Also very easily my GOTY.


West country accents RULE!!

"We had these mechanics called crescendos which were supposed to build up so that it was only later in the game that you realised, "Wow, I'm really cool,""

What are these crescendos? I don't think I encountered them. I'm not even being sarcastic or mean about it, I just don't know what he means.


@PlugMonkey

There is no WAY you can blame the devs for you choosing not to revive your dog. Your dog is clearly and consistently the ONLY way you can find and dig up random treasure, and at no point did the game EVER suggest there was another dog in the kingdom (one of the loading screen messages even jokes about there being no other dogs), and you CHOSE to not revive your dog, and the game told it would remain dead if you chose that option..... and yet you complain now that you have no dog. YOU CHOSE TO HAVE NO DOG.

Seriously dude, take some responsibility. Do you complain in cinemas when you run out of popcorn because you ate it all?

I've seen quite a few people raise this same "complaint" and actually I think it demonstrates the effectiveness of what PM and co achieved with that decision. Some gamers (people) are too used to getting everything, and when presented with a proper decision that forces them to leave something significant behind, they make the choice but whine about it afterwards. And even try and blame someone else because they aren't happy with their OWN choice.

Bizarre.

P.s. you can still complete the archaeologist quest. I gave up my dog well before I even began that mission, and I found it made no difference at all. When you get to the right area for each artifact, just read the archeologist's note again.

@ronuds

Do you work for lionhead or something? You seem a little too eager to shoot down the opinions others have of this game. The reality is that the game wasn't liked by many because it was once again nothing like described by PM.

I thought it was a great interview and article, and it brings me a day closer to getting hold of Fable II.

It was just released too near to the gush of games that I'm still playing.

EG forgot to ask if we will be able to resurrect the dog ...

Awesome game.

"Then out of the blue you had Lost and Dexter, and TV was where it was at."

He was clearly a very busy man in the last decade (or two). :)

"The reality is that the game wasn't liked by many because it was once again nothing like described by PM."

Correction: Your opinion is that the game was nothing like described by PM.

The fable I played was pretty much exactly what PM said was being delivered. Charming, emotive, and with consequence.

"Personally, if you're defining easy as, "Well, I should have died five times here and had to repeat the same combat over," I think that's just tedious.
It's not about easy and hard, it's about entertainment and tedium."

and also...

"The experience of being lost is not what you want. The experience of exploring is what you want."

I will quite often berate PM for talking a lot and not doing much, but Fable 2 changed my attitude a fair amount (I realise that a lot of the key ideas may not of actually been his own). Both the comments above show that he (somebody) still GETS it. Its about fun, and sometimes games make players do things that just aren't fun with NO real justification.

Fable 2 didn't really do that. It never said "but you HAVE to just try not to kill that innocent person by accident" or "you HAVE to just find your way through this maze, even though it is boring".


And I'm sure I read in a feature about the upcoming DLC that it will include something that lets you ressurect the dog (that you chose to leave dead).

For years people have complained about choices in games not having real consequences. Now here people are complaining that Fable II -does- have some choices with real consequences. The thing about consequences is that once you get them, you have to -deal- with them. I knew I'd lose the dog, and I knew that'd make me less likely to want to continue the game. But I still made that choice because it felt right, and I'm pleased I did.

There are other things I dislike about fable 2, but actually giving you meaningful decisions was one thing I think it did pretty well.

The problem with Fable 2 is... actually, apart from a few GUI issues, I don't have any problems with it. I FUCKING LOVED IT and quite cheerfully don't give two hoots what all you moaners hated about it. I LOVED IT.

I also made damn sure I got my dog back. I also got ALL the ending achievements...

:D

Yes! I loved Fable 2 and I'll definitely be getting the DLC. Great game. This and Fallout 3 were my favourite games of the year. And to echo what others have said here, losing your dog is a result of you deciding to do so.

I thought Fable II was brilliant, altho the NXE update lost my save (so obviously I'm not annoyed at PM or Lionhead or anything, not their fault!) so when I was 5 silver keys and 5 gargoyles away from the end I lost them!

He said something about "the story can't wait for another Fable" so I'm going to interpret that as "there will be another Fable in the future", wahey!

is this DLC free or we gotta pay?

ronuds - Well, look at you mr conclusion jumpy man. You've managed to pinpoint my entire personality from two forum posts. Apparently.

This big final decision is supposed to be the final moral choice in a game about morality. If I have to cynically reason:

Well, option (a) is choosing to stop playing the game, (b) is choosing to carry on playing the game and (c) is already pointless because I have an extra million gold pieces every time I boot the console anyway. So I guess I'll choose (b).

then I'm not really making a moral choice any more, am I?

I chose to sacrifice my dog. That's a shame. I liked him. He was cute. And we'd had lots of adventures together.

But now I've gone through denial, anger and into acceptance I wan't to keep playing a game I was really, really enjoying; but I can't because the only remotely interesting remaining questline is fucked. That's a bit annoying, isn't it? Or is even the tiniest criticism too much for you? The game was great, but the last decision was contrived and forced me to stop playing.

menage - I'll give that a go, although I'm mostly holding out to see if the DLC resurrection temple rumours are true.

Christ, the way some of you guys talk you'd think Peter Molyneaux had personally come round to your houses and raped your wallpaper or something.

I thoroughly enjoyed Fable and Fable 2, warts and all, and I personally found the lack of lengthy final boss battle hugely welcome and refreshing. It made the game about your character and your choices, and not about how good you personally were at pressing buttons. A lot of Fable 2 critics just don't seem to get that. You have to look at the game a certain way. If you don't, it becomes rather flat. But if you actually take some ownership for your character and your actions, it becomes so much more, and all those that don't are really missing out on a pretty unique experience. It certainly has its faults, of course.

Anyway, good interview EG. Molyneaux always seems very humble about his involvement and what his team have done; and good on him. And I think he's right about the revolution of gaming that needs to happen soon. Games have become very nearly mainstream now- and with just the right push they really could be the massive entertainment and storytelling medium that they have the potential to be.

Good interview. I actually picked my dog to be ressurected.

Can I have some monies??

My game of the year, and the first game my wife has ever completed.

You can you get your dog back in the new content, there's a place called the temple of ressurection....

matrim83: I'll see what I can do for you. I own just about everything and I haven't turned it on for a week so I should be minted. ;)

I couldn't get a lend of your mutt, could I?

A dog, a dog. My kingdom for a dog!

I think it's the first game where you can actually shit yourself, so, kudos to them.

I didn't like people coming into my house all the frikkin time when I wanted some action with my wife though.

"The reality is that the game is liked by many"

Fixed that for you.

Emo whiners barely like anything. I wonder why some of you still game. And ooooohhh.. Peter promised something and it didn't turn out as I expected. Go cry with your mommy FFS. It is only a game. Get angry about global warming/taxes/the government/Bush or something else that affects your lives.

>A dog, a dog. My kingdom for a dog!

So missing the little bugger are you? :) Why did you NOT have him resurrected then?

The Molyneaux haters are a great example of why you should never pander to hard core gamers when designing a game. You are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't with these people.

@penhalion

"the reality is that the game wasn't liked by many because it was once again nothing like described by PM."

Maybe that's why I'm enjoying Fable2 so much that I've dropped Fallout 3 (having hit lvl20) - as, in my opinion, PM is a tosser, I've ignored anything he's said about the game prior to his release and only paid attention to word of mouth and a few reviews. I've found that going in without any expectations of what's supposed to be in there has meant that I'm not disappointed or annoyed by any missing features that had been promised, just happy with what is in there. If that makes any sense...

I started ignoring PM shortly after Dungeon Keeper, when it was obvious that the finished product bore no reality to PM's hype (or the original design documentation). And when Evil Genius turned up and demonstrated how Dungeon Keeper should have worked...

I am speechless menage.

It has nothing to do with crying cut scenes.

If anyone had any brains at lionhead you would have saved the girl or met the girl doing an earlier quest. Such as:

I am winging this - completely making it up off the top of my head to show how fucking easy it would be if they just thought about things A LITTLE BIT.

You help an old lady who has lost her missing daughter. She is so unhappy she is making her younger sons life a misery. You go into a cave, fight some mobs and pull her out of there. The old lady is so happy she changes her ways and the boy and the girl are both happy. How sweet. Before you leave the family decide to move away to another town to start afresh. (yes i know this is lame but it also exactly like most of fable 2's quests)

You meet the girl again heading towards the shadow court. Everything has gone wrong with the family and her mother is ill but she's heard about some legendary beings who may be able to help. Then you get hit with the choice at the shadow court. Everything about that decision now carries more weight.

Oh look what I just did. I just dramatised your journey through Fable 2 with one tiny little tweak.

Thats not even a good example. I just made it up. But if you don't want that kind of thing in your games you are an idiot. And it's not about tying everything up its about characterisation and plot develoment. Have you even read any books? Lionhead obviously haven't.

Would love to see Lord of the Rings where all the characters you meet throughout the trilogy have no connection with each other. they just appear say some lines, kill a few orcs and bugger off. That is exactly what Fable 2 does. It's amateur and indicative of a entertainment medium still acting like a toddler. I don't want hardcore games. I want clever games. I'm an adult. Not a child. Additions like this would make MORE casual gamers interested in games not less. I can't believe more people can;t see that.

kangarootoo - But playing it as I was, as a game where I was portraying a character, a character who wasn't the sort of chap to sacrifice thousands of people for his pet, how am I supposed to approach this big final moral decision?

If I choose option 2 purely and cynically so I can keep playing the game, then the final morality choice has failed because my response is nothing to do with my character or the other characters or the context of the story. That's bad.

If the result of this choice is that I now find the rest of the game unplayable and so stop playing, that's also bad. Isn't it? I'm not sure why this statement is causing quite as many tantrums as it is. I'm frankly amazed that anyone didn't find that final choice to be rather contrived.

Re: The archeologist - I went to the next clue location, nothing happened to indicate it was or wasn't the right location because my dog was dead, so I stopped playing. Edit: Well, I stopped doing that quest, and then I ran out of other quests and stopped playing.

It's not like I'm threatening Molyneaux with violent death or anything. I just thought the ending of his otherwise great game was a bit bobbins and didn't really work.

Top man.

@PlugMonkey

Ok, re the quest that apparently isn't working (as it was confusing me for a bit too). If you are in the right location, simply hit down on the D-pad to read the note again (maybe flip it for info, this might not be neccesary) and then hit A to put it away. A big sparkly breadcrumb trail (unless you turned it off in the options menu.....) should appear guiding you, sans dog, to the spot where you can get busy with your spade in the time honoured tradition.

I agree that the design around this is not that clear, but its not broken, and it should not be used as a stick to beat the choice you were previously given regarding your hound.

Hmmm, maybe PlugMonkey has me on ignore.

No, I'm all ears. :D Give me half a chance.

So what exactly do I do? All the previous archeologist quests I went to the location, the dog would go "Woof! Woof!" and then run off towards the treasure. Now I go to the location and...nothing happens. Nothing in the game has given me any indication that there is any alternative method, other than the dog that found all the other ones. I couldn't be arsed to bang my head against a wall with it - tis the season to play one of the others on the games mountain, especially when you've technically finished this one - and so I stopped and did something else. Which is not really what you want your customers to do, in my opinion, but what the hell do I know?

Edit: OK, so it's not 'broken'. Can I get away with 'contrived and subsequently confusing'? ;)

ON his comments on controllers, it's complete rubbish, some people are always phobic of buttons and always will be theyd be put off by the fact it was a game before the controller.

Penahlion: I thought it was pretty accurate to what was promised.
There are some issues yes. The latter half of the game is considerably less well developed than the first.

Personally I put that down to MS forcing it out of the door before it was finished.

OTOH: the story definitly needs work.

>Oh look what I just did. I just dramatised your journey through Fable 2 with one tiny little tweak.

A little tweak that will probably take 3 weeks to implement in game code. Writing computer games is sadly not like writing books. Once your game design is up and running you will have to play withing the rules/boundaries. And who knows.. maybe there is a quest in the game where you meet that girl? Fable uses out of order questing... so they are limited in linking them together in sequence but it offers the players a wider choice of paths to take.

"OTOH: the story definitly needs work."
What for? If you do a Copola level plot, like GTA IV, the majority of users don't give a shit... It's useless... :/

"More big words from the man who makes so-so games"

More words from a petty man that has done nothing note worthy in his life.

Your actions indeed speak volumes.