EVE boss questions MMOs

By Robert Purchese Published 23 May, 2007

"Why make a clone of WoW?"

EVE Online boss Hilmar Veigar Petursson has questioned developers that create World of Warcraft clones, and reckons there's plenty of other genres to exploit - including his own company's specialist area of sci-fi, GamesIndustry.biz is reporting.

For the CEO of Icelandic developer CCP, Blizzard's market-leading MMO already represents the pinnacle of the fantasy genre, and studios need to forget some of the history associated with massively multiplayer games in order to try something new.

"I just don't understand why people do yet another fantasy game. Why make a clone of World of Warcraft?" said Petursson, in an exclusive interview with GamesIndustry.biz.

"World of Warcraft is the perfect implementation of this [genre]. It's been done. Do something else.

"This might have something to do with the fact that the birthplace of massively multiplayer games is in the MUD, and the MUDs were very fantasy-driven, and the whole sort of level treadmill and all these things - it's so ingrained into the people developing it that people always fall into the same traps," said Petursson.

While EVE Online seems to have the space-based MMO market sewn up, Peturrson says he would welcome another company entering the sci-fi market, as it would help expand his 200,000 strong user base.

"If Blizzard were to make Starcraft the MMO and make an accessible game similar to World of Warcraft, I think it would actually add to our subscriber base rather than retract," he said.

"We saw it when World of Warcraft came out. About six to eight months after it came out we saw people coming to EVE, because they had played through WoW and they were looking for the next thing to do.

"We've also gone through the launch of Earth and Beyond, and we've been through the launch of Star Wars Galaxies; it created more opportunities than issues for us," he revealed.

The full interview with Hilmar Veigar Petursson will be published on GamesIndustry.biz next week.

Picture of Robert.

About Robert Purchese

Bertie is Eurogamer's Senior Staff Writer. When he's not hunting down news stories he's often found playing with his kids or gabbling about fantasy games and strange online worlds. @Clert on Twitter.

Read more articles from Robert by visiting the Robert Purchese archive page.

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Comments (46) Latest comment 5 years ago

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  • PearOfAnguish #1 5 years ago

    Why make a clone of WoW? That's easy: money.

  • NewYork #2 5 years ago

    MUD?

  • gaijin #3 5 years ago

    Tiger feet?

    Actually that's got an extra D i think. Multi-User Dungeon.

    (edited for usefulness)
    Edited by gaijin at 23/05/07 @ 14:01

  • ZuluHero #4 5 years ago

    text based mmo. EDIT: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD
    ">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD
    </a>

    What i dont get is that millions of mmo players cry out for different settings in mmo's, but no one listens.

    maybe it'll take a respected member of the dev community for people to start listening :S
    Edited by ZuluHero at 23/05/07 @ 14:02

  • PearOfAnguish #5 5 years ago

    I wanted to like EVE, but I was expecting something with real-time combat. Mouse-clicky action isn't fun.

  • ZuluHero #6 5 years ago

    agreed - its like a glorified spreadsheet manager.

    /ducks ;)
    Edited by ZuluHero at 23/05/07 @ 15:04

  • Mr_Brown #7 5 years ago

    He's got a point. Making a clone of WoW isn't easy money, its most likely going to fail. Publishers think that MMO's are like regular games, if something does really well, they copy it and think it'll sell well too. But with MMO's you have to spend way more time on them and pay every month. Why is anyone going to play through WoW for 100's of hours (paying through the nose) and then give it up to play the same game for another few 100 hours?

    If anyone is going to replicate the sucess of WoW and if the genre has a real future developers and publishers need to be putting different things out there and risk losing loads of money, or just be happy with only just breaking even.

  • Macross #8 5 years ago

    yeah agreed, i like eve, but even I think its a bit too dry and cerebral sometimes (which is why i guess i only play it for about 2 months every year :p)

  • UncleLou #9 5 years ago

    I wanted to like EVE, but I was expecting something with real-time combat. Mouse-clicky action isn't fun.

    Fair enough, though I don't see such a big difference. It feels more like you're the captain of a ship with a big crew whom you're giving orders, but it works well imo. I mean, you don't see Commander Adama grab a flightstick and steer the Galactica, do you? ;)

    Anyway, the guy has a point, EVE is completely unique, and seems to do quite well in itw own niche.

  • Lacero #10 5 years ago

    I can't tell if he's decrying the cookie cutter games everyone is making or decrying the cookie cutter settings everyone is using.

  • ZuluHero #11 5 years ago

    I think that what was originally intended was that Devs wanted to copy WoW's game model, from an accessibly PoV and make it so the casual player could enjoy them.

    But somewhere along the line it got blurred and people started trying to make carbon copies of WoW.

  • Gurgeh #12 5 years ago

    The flaw in his argument is the success of Lord of the Rings Online, which borrows a lot from WoW. If you have a good franchise name then you can get away with making yet-another-fantasy MMO.

    EVE does what it does well but it's one of those games I find a lot more interesting to read about than to play. I'm hoping the WH:40k game turns out good but there's almost no information to go on yet so it's years away.

  • ZuluHero #13 5 years ago

    Agreed Gurgeh,

    As per Mr_Brown's rhetorically asked question, "Why is anyone going to play through WoW for 100's of hours (paying through the nose) and then give it up to play the same game for another few 100 hours?"

    People who have quite happily moved from WoW to play LotRO, that’s who. Like many others and myself! :)

    I think the point is that the 'copy' still has to have the quality and the pizzazz otherwise it’s going to be a failure. I don’t think that using the same model over and over will work for many companies in the long run, otherwise you just hit a saturation point in the market, and there won’t be enough people to play your game! ;)

    Edited by ZuluHero at 23/05/07 @ 14:25

  • NewYork #14 5 years ago

    If anyone ever made an ancient Arabic/Middle Eastern setting, that would be awesome.

    Sand rules.

  • PearOfAnguish #15 5 years ago

    Fair enough, though I don't see such a big difference. It feels more like you're the captain of a ship with a big crew whom you're giving orders, but it works well imo. I mean, you don't see Commander Adama grab a flightstick and steer the Galactica, do you? ;)

    Absolutely, I've got nothing against EVE, just not what I personally would like from a spacey MMO. Something with the scope of EVE and X3 with Freespace-style combat* and the ability to land on, and invade, planets would do me. Easy! :)


    *but hopefully with the addition of super-powerful lasers and realistic physics that lets you saw bits off a ship, or blow holes right through them, or blow holes in them then get out and board the ship in your spacesuit...

  • ZuluHero #16 5 years ago

    "Something with the scope of EVE and X3 with Freespace-style combat*"

    Yay - i'm not alone! :)

    EDIT: @newyork

    what about a rome/Mythological mmo?

    http://www.eurogamer.net/game.php?game_i...
    Edited by ZuluHero at 23/05/07 @ 14:36

  • NewYork #17 5 years ago

    Ooh, that sounds cool, too.

    Beats another freakin' medieval Europe setting, anyway.

  • pauleyc #18 5 years ago

    Spreadsheet manager, huh?!

    /calculates powergrid and CPU requirements, loads correct ammo, compensates for optimal gun and ammo range, decreases transversal velocity, considers launching drones instead of hybrid turrets but decides otherwise after examining his skills

    /fires railgun at ZuluHero

    But Petursson's right though. I would very much welcome Freelancer/Elite Online, a MMOG version of KotOR or even a proper Matrix Online (hell, maybe someone should remaster the Fallout IP to fit such a game environment - but not Interplay) rather than another Vanguard or Woodelf Online.
    Edited by pauleyc at 23/05/07 @ 15:15

  • Foxis #19 5 years ago

    "MUD?"

    /feels extremely old
    /dies :)

  • Jigglybean #20 5 years ago

    Star Wars Galaxies had probably the best system at launch. Its skill tree could allow players to pick and choice the skills they wanted, rather than the straight forward levelling up we see now (which Galaxies now has).

    Lord of the rings online is just the same as Warcraft in every way. I don't play warcraft because I didnt like it, LoTRo is the same, so ive stopped playing that now as well.

    MMOs need to create a sense of adventure and excitement, which I think is still some way off

  • pikemon #21 5 years ago

    lol

    there is more to "fantasy" than the generic (and somewhat lame) fantasy style that wow is doing.

    if anyone would do a playable fantasy MMORPG with

    - artsy, attractive visual style/atmosphere
    - truly original and engaging background story/fantasy world
    - gameplay not revolving around grindfest & farming

    ... i would jump at the chance to try it out. i can see how WOW is arguably "the best game" in existence, but it does not appeal to everyone.

    *dreams of world peace*

  • ZuluHero #22 5 years ago

    @jigglybean: What about traits in LotRs? Sounds like a similar system?
    Edited by ZuluHero at 23/05/07 @ 15:13

  • arqueturus #23 5 years ago

    CCP 4TW!

    Eve was my first MMO and that was 4 years ago and I'm still playing now, although a lot less. I've played Lineage II Beta, WoW 2 Week Trial and Guild Wars. Of all those alternatives I thought WoW was the best, very accessable and polished.

    Hilmar saying this sort of thing doesn't surprise me, CCP aren't ones for going with the in crowd or after a fast buck.

    As to Eve being like a spreadsheet, I suppose it is, before the combat... in combat it's not, it's every bit as white knuckle as a FPS spaceshooter. Spaceships being controlled by joystick is one of the more illogical idea's though, there's no up and down in space...

    cheers arq

  • ZuluHero #24 5 years ago

    "Spaceships being controlled by joystick is one of the more illogical idea's though, there's no up and down in space..."

    thats the craziest thing i've ever read :p

    EDIT: And you have to admit that combat is very few and far between, with very little 'skill'. Its a case of i have the biggest ship and the biggest guns. I win!
    Edited by ZuluHero at 23/05/07 @ 15:45

  • Chtulie #25 5 years ago

    With Lord of the Rings it's the licence that sells. That the game is like WoW makes the players stay for a while.

    But to compete with WoW directly is dumb indeed. The position is taken. If people want a WoW experience, they'll go for WoW. If they want something else, THEN they'll go elsewhere.

    And you can't even imagine to usurp the position WoW has like it did to Everquest back in the day. Those early pionering times when there wasn't yet one fantasy MMO to rule them all are gone. The only time WoW will fail from here on is if the genre it represents, the fantasy MMO fails. And by then the WoW clones have already gone extinct long before.

  • Chtulie #26 5 years ago

    "there's no up and down in space"

    You mean there's no horizon to give a meaning to up and down in space. Not the current implication that space is a 2d enviroment.

  • ZuluHero #27 5 years ago

    If you were flying a spaceship though, 'Up' and 'down' are still perceivable. The orientation of the ship in the relation to where you are sitting in the surrounding cockpit looking out at the ‘nose’ of the ship reinforces that.

    Because of this it gives you a point of reference making it easy to control a ship via a "joystick"

    Most sci-fi ships are built and designed with a floor and ceiling as if in a gravity well (usually because they have artificial gravity) plus it makes it more 'veiwer-friendly'.

    I could have just argued that i used a joystick in X3 and had no problems in navigating space though :p
    Edited by ZuluHero at 23/05/07 @ 16:24

  • arqueturus #28 5 years ago

    @Zuluhero

    Without getting into a large debate about Eve, it's definately not about the 'biggest ship with the biggest guns', I could supply lots of info, stories and videos to support that but I'm not a rabid fanboy so we'll not worry about it. Eve favors the prepared basically.

    As for joysticks, why? buttons could do the same thing, ignore up and down not existing in space, you're just thrusting in a direction with a certain MN.

    You know one of things in Eve that I always thought great? Most of the mechanics of an MMO add to the immersion instead of reducing it.

    cheers arq

    Quickie edit for Zuluhero - I don't think looking out the nose of a spaceship helps orientate you, that comes from external stimuli, like ground and sky. Also, why have a nose on a spaceship? or a cockpit? Both of those are throwbacks to atmospheric flight ;)
    Edited by arqueturus at 23/05/07 @ 16:31

  • ZuluHero #29 5 years ago

    I used to play eve :)

    If I was controlling a frigate, I couldn't out manoeuvre a battleship to win/survive a dogfight, could I? :)

    Granted there could be an issue where my weapons would be no-match for the battleships shields but that’s a given...

    I would have loved to be able to use my skill as a pilot to outwit someone, like flying under the belly of a huge battleship so that they couldn't attack me and/or find me :)

    Edit: or fly into an asteriod belt to escape my pursuers for example :)
    Edited by ZuluHero at 23/05/07 @ 16:35

  • Lov3 #30 5 years ago

    "If anyone ever made an ancient Arabic/Middle Eastern setting, that would be awesome.

    Sand rules."

    Silkroad Online. You start the game in some city in China, and can eventually stroll over to an arabic nation. The setting is very pretty, but the game itself is torturous to play. If you like your games to play like treadmills, this one is the treadmilliest game you'll ever find.

  • zuljin #31 5 years ago

    @Mr_Brown
    "Why is anyone going to play through WoW for 100's of hours (paying through the nose) and then give it up to play the same game for another few 100 hours? "

    Same reason why people go to see the same style film over and over. Its still different enough for them to spend money on.

  • Wyrm #32 5 years ago

    They need to make Star Wars Galaxies 2. Go back to the original format, add a content level similar to that of WoW's, and bingo, best MMO on the market.

    SWG Crafting system was exemplary.

    Skill tree system unique and diverse.

    Player cities added real attachment to territory.

    Shops and player economy was brilliant.

  • Nithron #33 5 years ago

    Why are there no MMOs set *now*?
    I mean, they don't need to be set now, as in, the Sims kind of now where you're just living a day to day life, i mean, set now but the world's gone crazy and everyone's shooting eachother.
    Rather than set in the future where everyone's shooting eachother or the past where everyone's stabbing eachother.

    Put zombies in it and i'll buy enough copies to keep the company responsible going for years.

  • AOFanboi #34 5 years ago

    EVE is almost Excel with an animated slightly interactive backdrop. No competitors there. The two other space-faring MMOs - Jumpgate and Earth & Beyond - got cancelled, though.

    In fact they got cancelled so fast they even managed to close before the barren wasteland that was Asheron's Call 2 (now reborn, reskinned and WoW-ified, as LOTRO).

  • AOFanboi #35 5 years ago

    <em>Put zombies in it and i'll buy enough copies to keep the company responsible going for years.</em>

    Here you go, courtesy of Funcom. Since they took five years from Anarchy Online launch to upcoming Age of Conan launch I guess it will take a few years for them to make it though.

  • Gurgeh #36 5 years ago

    SWG dancing was legendary

    [link url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP65eZq3eNk
    ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP65eZq3eNk
    [/link]

  • Nithron #37 5 years ago

    AOFanboi: That is awesome.
    Thankyou.

  • arqueturus #38 5 years ago

    @ZuluHero

    When did you play Eve? It's been a long long time since Battleships have been able to kill frigates with ease (we're talking at least 2 and half years) in the scenario you mention. Infact Interceptor pilots are high skilled at evading Battleship fire by keeping their transversal high and orbiting the target manually. I never liked that aspect of Interceptors so never trained them, more of a Command ship man myself.

    cheers arq

  • ZuluHero #39 5 years ago

    EVE uk launch - for 3 months. I've played the trial since mind.

  • The_Rat #40 5 years ago

    Ive been playing eve for almost 3 years, its changed beyond all recognition since i started playing the game.

    Some of the changes have improved the game and some have spoiled it in my opinion.

    One of the things i like about eve is that theres no leveling, so you can join the game, get recruited into a corporation and then play alongside people who have been ingame for years, how many other mmo's allow you to do that ?...

    Its been said that the average age of an eve online player is 27, the game certainly rewards the player using his brains rather than reflexes, there have been players who joined the game expecting a kind of 'counterstrike' in space who quickly left the game because they couldn't handle the depth of strategy that is needed to master the game.

    Eve online is a sandbox game meaning that you make up your own things to do rather than everything being scripted like in other mmo's, if you want to hang around in low-security space and kill other players thats fine, or want to war-dec an industrial based corporation and blackmail them, thats fine as well, or maybe head into alliance space and construct outposts and take part in fleet battles of 300-400 players, you can do what you want, in fact CCP incourage players to be as creative as possible.

    Some people have said that combat in eve is as simple as just pressing a button, thats simply not true, in fact its the quickest way to die in the game, You need the inteligence to pick your targets wisely, theres no "i win" button in eve, for every strategy theres a counter, so its important to know your limitations and what your ship is weak against, and of course every ship is designed to have a specific role in battle, some ships like interceptors are designed to be small and fast, to lock down a target so it cant escape while corp-mates kill it, then theres cloaking ships designed to spy on the enemy and pass intel back to your corp members, theres freighters designed for transporting large amounts of cargo around, battleships for firepower and hitting at long ranges, and when you start fighting the enemy isn't just going to sit there, they are going to try and outsmart you, call their friends in for support, use vampire weapons to drain your ships energy so you cant shoot them etc etc, anything but just pressing a button and waiting...

    Its only when you've been in eve for a while that you will begin to realise exactly how devious some of the players are, everyone wants to make 'isk' (ingame currency), and alot of them don't care how they get it, they will scam and cheat you out of your cash if you aren't careful, and this is where eve's problems start, its great if you are doing the scamming, but not if you are on the receiving end, and it makes the game very noob unfriendly.

    Eve also has problems with lag, getting into a fleet battle should be loads of fun, but often the screen will freeze and then update once every 10-20 seconds, its easy to get killed without even getting the chance to shoot anything.

    Then theres acusations of corruption within CCP, some of the GM's are in corporations and alliances, and one of them was recently caught cheating, he was helping his alliance by abusing his position as a GM, instead of sacking him, CCP covered it up by banning the whistelblower that caught him, and since then people simply don't trust CCP.

    I could continue writing for hours about eve, but ive gone on for far too long already, to sum it up is it a great game ... yes , but its just not for everyone.

  • MightyPenguin #41 5 years ago

    @Arq

    Interceptors are Tech 2 boats, though. I stopped playing sometime around the Shiva patch (bastarding exams), so I'm a little bit hazy on Interceptor/T2 BS match-ups (actually, further googling leads me to believe that T2 BS are still un implemented), but T2 is a fair step up from T1.

    Still, on the other hand, comparing a frigate to a battleship is akin to comparing a level 1 character to a level 20 on WoW.

    Besides, the place EVE really shines is mass fleet combat. The correct use of frigates is in squadrons.

  • ZuluHero #42 5 years ago

    a lvl 1 player can still out-manoeuvre and escape a lvl 20 chara just by using ASDW and their own skill ;)
    Edited by ZuluHero at 24/05/07 @ 09:27

  • Iora #43 5 years ago

    @Zuluhero

    A lvl 1 can outmanoeuvre a lvl20. In WoW!!!!!! um...no.
    That is one of the aspects i hated about the WoW levelling system and loved about EVE's skill system. A lvl20 could decimate whole swathes of lvl1 players. A lvl60 would be nigh on invincible. In EVE a well organised group of new players barely a week old can take on any player regardless of how long they have been playing.

    For all those who say EVE combat is like a spreadsheet need to look very hard at the likes of WoW. Other than you controlling the movements of your characters with keys it is exactly the same as EVE. Except it doesn't hold the same level of exhilaration, fear or strategy.

    EVE Devs have my full respect!

    p.s. there is NO up in space

  • ZuluHero #44 5 years ago

    hehe such passion :)

    I was such a noob in the early days of WoW. A lvl 20 mage managed to get away from my level 30-something rogue...

    I'm not sure that a noob player in a battleship could even fail to kill a frigate in EVE (at least not in the old days when i used to play)

    P.S. with thoughts like that, i'm sure you'd have been able to match wits with Kirk in Wrath of Kahn ;)

  • Iora #45 5 years ago

    @ZuluHero

    As one of the previous posters has said there were alterations made to eve quite some time back. It was thought that battleships should not be 'solo-pwn-mobiles'. They used to be able to eliminate frigates as fast as they could lock them.

    That changed with the reworking of signature radius's and transversal velocities. Now smaller targets are much harder to hit with bigger guns. With tech2 frigates it becomes even more difficult to hit them.

    I'd rather face another battleship than a swarm of frigates. :)

  • MightyPenguin #46 5 years ago

    IIRC the proper vehicle for Frigate munching is the Destroyer, a class which is midway between Frigate and Cruiser in size.