Eurogamer's Top 50 Games of 2008: 30-21 Comments by Eurogamer staff

I hate the Wii!

[Goes back to playing on his Wii]

@botherer.. yeah.. but you do seem to want to slag the wii off in ever review you do for it..

I think this is the one case where there is a blanket EG editorial policy, as they (as a site) appear to have almost completely disassociated themselves with the current market leader ;)

Actually its more the "sawing your legs off at the knees" thing, which seemed rather pointedly opinionated to me. Not to mention the ludicrous "review" you host on your site, your oft-cited dislike of the entire franchise, and your pathological determination to disprove my original point about the critical consensus (oooh I did it again) being extremely positive.

It's perfectly true that I hated the earlier MGS games, which is why I haven't played the latest one or expressed any opinion on it. If you insist on treating an opinion on Game X as an opinion on Game Y, there's not much I can do.

The review on my site was written by someone who absolutely loves MGS, but thought 4 was bloated overblown nonsensical shite. I'm at a loss as to what point you're making there.

I don't have any "pathological determination", the simple fact is that you're wrong and I pointed it out, extremely reasonably and with no insults whatsoever. There is no "consensus view" that MGS4 is a great game, except MAYBE among people who bought it, who are obviously likely to be predisposed to think that or they wouldn't have bought it in the first place. That isn't a very controversial statement, and your increasingly hysterical personal attacks on me don't make it one.

Once more: I've never played MGS4. I have no idea what it's like, except that I imagine it's probably similar to some games I've played before and didn't enjoy, which is why I'm not planning to try to find out. Life is short and I have too many games to play that I'm more likely to enjoy.

But if everyone got to review their favourite genres then we would have a whole load of misleading high scores.

Ok, now I'm lost.

Chances are, if you have any interest in DS puzzle games, you want somebody to review them who is remotely interested (and therefore, who you can hopefully relate to) in that same genre. All the better if they've reviewed similar games before, then you can compare/reflect/consider and make a decision on a whole host of factors.

If a completely exclusive FPS nut reviews Pic Pic, what good is that doing anybody?

I'm one of those people who just doesn't get RPGs, why would there ever be a point in me reviewing one? The RPG fans would take me to the cleaners, because they aren't actually going to be informed of anything that is relevant to them.

But if everyone got to review their favourite genres then we would have a whole load of misleading high scores.

Oh poo, we went over this. I'll paste what I wrote last time, since I thought it was rather good.

"I'm also not sure what you mean by "love this type of game", unless the type of game in question is, "really, exceptionally good ones." If that's what you meant, then yes, I love that type of game. If, as I disappointingly suspect, you mean "obscure Japanese puzzle games," then no, I have no love for such a genre. I'm not sure how someone could love games on this basis, since so many are so very terrible, most are mediocre, a few are good, and very few are excellent. I love the excellent ones - I find that's a good rule of thumb."

So, remo, love. We've finally managed to establish that by "obscure Japanese puzzlers" you didn't actually mean obscure Japanese puzzlers, but were using the words "Japanese" and "puzzlers" in their generic sense, to mean any kind of games from anywhere.

So precisely WHICH games is it that have been given undeserving high scores so that the reviewer can be part of the "journalistic elite" that pretends to like crappy games just to be different?

Apparently this is a major failing of EG, so you must have quite a long list of examples. Come on, name some names.

They pretended to like gta4... but that's not obscure, a puzzler or japanese...

ok, in the last 20 retro reviews on this site:

OMFG.

Any REAL reviews?

They pretended to like gta4... but that's not obscure, a puzzler or japanese...

Don't forget Bioshock. They pretended REALLY HARD on that one.

ok, in the last 20 retro reviews on this site:

fifteen out of the twenty got score 8 or above.
Including seven 9's and a 10.

So what is actually your point, regarding these 20 reviews? i.e. What are you actually saying is happening?

I can only assume you mean the actual retro section (not an arbitrary cross section of games you consider 'retro'), in which case, isn't the point that they are reviewing classic retro games? What would be the point in re-reviewing something awful, like Captain Planet on the Mega Drive, for example?

I can't see how those reviews are having any influence on your recent or prospective purchases (which I assume was your original point, considering we are in the top games of 2008 article), and therefore, I can't see how those retro reviews have any place in your so called argument. Unless you are actually telling me that Dropzone and Uridium (for example) are not deserving of high scores, in which case we may as well call it a day now.

@ Remo (unarmed and dangerous)
You're right, in a sense. A journalist who gives an undeserving game an inflated mark for a reason other than it's quality is a rascal. An editorial policy that condones such a thing would indeed also be rapscallious.

But you're mainly wrong. Firstly, you picked two idiotic examples to illustrate your point - they're both really good games. They might have bad graphics, and be simple to grasp, and *gasp* generally low profile, but surely you should thank the reviewer for bringing such gems to your attention? Oh - but you've not really played either of them.

@ all parties:
Rise above the name calling. It makes you look like bad losers.

Anyway, roll on tomorrow for the last 10. Here's hoping International Rugby Challenge gets top spot!

>obscure games that no one plays

like mgs4? (sorry couldnt resist)


>so if EG like it then it makes EG special.

.. And again.. he's asked you for SPECIFIC examples.. and youve yet to give us any...

Bioshock/gta4 are hardly obscure japanese puzzlers.. both hugely overrated on this site.. But neither prove your point.

rev, thats my whole point.
obscure games that no one plays, so if EG like it then it makes EG special.

I bow to you, sir. You've shot yourself down in flames a hundred times better than I could ever have dreamt. All this fuss was about reviews of old Commodore 64 games in the Retro section?

ROFLCOPTER!

>Just because it is popular doesn't make it crap.

But your saying "just because its unpopular must mean it's crap?"

And unlike you with the games in question.. i've played all 3 of halo 3, bioshock and gta4.. and none of them were worth the scores they got (imho).. but then i've actually played them..

I'm merely pointing out (in an admittedly critical manner) the way you choose to present yourself is deliberately abrasive, combative, and obnoxious.

Man! I had no idea!

But seriously, here's what I posted in response to you:

"Consensus of who, though? The people who bought it? In statistics, they call that a self-selecting sample and discount the results as unrepresentative of the wider demographic. By any numerical measure, the vast majority of gamers didn't want MGS4 and didn't buy it. A large chunk of even those who did buy it didn't like it."

Wow, you're right. The hateful, obnoxious bigotry just drips off that, doesn't it?

(I do feel a bit of a dick for interpreting "You're a hateful little bigot" as a personal attack, though. Sorry, my bad.)

It is typical of Eurogamer snobs to start a backlash on something popular

Hold on, so you're saying that EG intentionally gives obscure titles higher marks, but marks down the popular titles. But you're also suggesting that many of these obscure titles (that you haven't played) must be crap precisely because they are obscure/mongolian/whatever. You also seem to be suggesting that no titles in the retro section are deserving of high marks as well.

Really, I'm lost. So I'm clear, only modern, populist games deserve high marks, but only if the review and score is a combination of the views of at least half the EG staff, and if possible, they shouldn't be a fan of the genre in question.

Feel free to respond to my last post as well, particularly the bit about why 20 reviews from the retro section is actually having any effect on your life.

"try the last 20 retro reviews as I said."

Just looked in the retro section.. not a single overrated obscure japanese puzzler there?

There are a lot of great games though.. who'd argue that the likes of dropzone, wizball, the sentinel, etc ARENT good games?

"GTA4 is stunning. Missions are a bit lame at times as I said, but the game world is astonishing. "

??!?!?

So you're saying that the missions (i.e. the game itself) are lame.. But the world and tech is astonishing?

So basically you're saying it's a lame game with great tech?

Ah, i get it now.. you're one of THOSE people... No wonder you cant see the merits in a "obscure japanese puzzler" or a retro game.. you just like to jerk off over tech!

>Feel free to keep recycling the same old crap.

No.. like everyone on here.. we're waiting for you to back up your argument with some proper examples...

its you that's going around in circles and resorting to insults...

I'm not making any personal attacks on you

I also look pretty foolish now about thinking "an obnoxious blowhard heckling from the sidelines at an industry that has failed to recognise his talent" was a personal attack. What must you think of me?

Really, I'm lost. So I'm clear - only modern, populist games deserve high marks, but only if the review and score is a combination of the views of at least half the EG staff, and if possible, they shouldn't be a fan of the genre in question.

I'm pretty sure that's it, except that I think they also have to have polygonal graphics. Remo?

"'ve just giving you a fucking example!
It explains everything I am talking about.
Niche games which will never be popular are scored highly. "


The example you gave was of the retro section.. which contains games which were once popular.. so hardly a case of "will never be popular".

.. But you've not pointed us towards any "niche games which arent popular.. which are actually bad!" which would prove your point..

At the moment your point seems to be - if the game doesnt sell then it doesnt deserve a high score?

"Its the gaming equivalent of someone who turns there nose up at Coldplay etc when they get popular, after having been going to their concert for 10 years."


erm.. no its not.. your argument is the exact opposite in fact?

EDIT: Just to clarify - you're basically doing the equivalent of a top ten pop fan (britney spears fan or equivalent) turning their nose up at any music which isnt popular and mainstream..


'"I said some missions are lame. Not all.
That keeps it from being a perfect game, but not enough from it being a truly great game. "

So.. it's overrated then!

Glad we agree on something

"Just because a game is niche or retro doesn't mean it should automatically get a high score. "


No-one is saying that here..

But you're saying just because a game is niche or retro it DOESNT deserve a high score...

And YET AGAIN you've yet to provide any examples of a niche game which got a high score which didnt deserve it..

The point, dummy, is that the games in the Retro section are mostly hand-picked BECAUSE they're good. They're not really "reviews" at all, more like retrospectives with scores just for fun. Quite obviously, what everyone except you is talking about is NEW RELEASE games which have been given undeserving high scores. You didn't originally say Retro-section games, you said "obscure Japanese puzzlers". Now name us ONE game which has actually had a proper review in the normal everyday EG that was overmarked for being obscure and for the sake of being different.

"smelly, you are a dick.
THE LAST 20 RETRO GAMES. "


... All of which are good games! And hugely popular when they were first released... And dont prove your point in the slightest.

"Its a negative characterisation, not a personal attack."

ROFLLMAOLOLETC!

I do have to take my hat off to you for that one.

>I think I win if I am not mistaken.

Maybe in the land of retarded fairies?

"I think I win if I am not mistaken."

God bless you, you mental little troll.

To recap, remo...

- You personally attacked the integrity of a reviewer over two very specific review scores (mainly Pic Pic), and also claimed that EG is rubbish because of its elitist attitude

- You then claimed you didn't insult said reviewer in any way, and also that you were not specifically talking about Pic Pic

- When asked for examples of obscure games that EG had over-scored purely on the basis of being obscure, you highlighted some of the most popular 'old' games of all time which EG have reviewed as a nice retrospective.

So in conclusion, you've handily discovered the retro review scores as a basis to backup your argument that EG is elitist, when in fact you were originally referring to 'current' games (but not Slitherink or Pic Pic) but have so far not provided a single example of such games.

I think, in Internet terms, that "gradually claiming you are leaving for the night" is known as an apology.

1. You're frequently abusive. (plenty of examples in this thread)

Absolutely. No argument there whatsover.

2. You very often express your hatred of things and people you dislike. e.g "it's perfectly true that I hated the earlier MGS games".

Indeed I do. But having hate within you is not the same as being hateful. It's not even the same as being "hate-filled", which is what you actually mean to say there. Most people have hate within them from time to time.

3. You are extremely intolerant of people who's opinion disagrees with yours. Again, too many examples to list just in this thread.

That's just completely wrong, though. I'm completely intolerant of people disagreeing with me idiotically. Look on my forum (or any other one I use) and you'll find plenty of perfectly civil disagreement if people conduct their argument intelligently and rationally. People like dear sweet remo, on the other hand, aren't worth wasting civility on. Pro tip: if I'm treating you like a dickhead, chances are it's because you are one.

You're taking a lot of time to leave when you could be naming us a single game released in modern times that EG over-rated just to be "elite".

If you guys continue this thread, I'll have to go make more popcorn. Holy crap this has been entertaining! :-D

An apology? You're not even involved dickhead

Woo hoo, somebody who doesn't raise his voice, swear or throw even the remotest sign of an insult (that would be me) gets one thrown at him, awesome. Seriously, how old are you? Genuine question.

AHAHAHAHAHAH

Oh remo.

"I'm only posting on here because I am working and I am bored.
Are you people actually choosing to post here all day long instead of doing something real with your lives?"

Why did you say that? What was your motivation? People keep asking you for examples (I'll make it easier - just ONE example) of an obscure game an EG writer has overrated in order to present themselves as journalistic elite. And you've not been able to name any, and that's obviously because you don't have an example. Which is fine, you just have to admit it.

Referencing the retro section is quite peculiar. A collection of reviews of games specifically chosen because of their greatness getting positive reviews. How are they obscure, exactly? And how is it an example of that which you originally cited? Of course it isn't. It's got nothing to do with anything.

Why not just admit you were wrong to have made your original assertion. Apologise to me for your slanderous comments about my professionalism and integrity (and perhaps apologise to all the other writers, since you extended the accusations to them), and then everyone will leave you alone. Or provide a single example of obscure games being given dishonest inflated marks. Preferably not of C64 games. (Did you really think the retro section gambit would work? "This will get them off my backs!")

-----------------------------------------------------------

No, a bigot is an intolerant person "who refuses to accept different views". I accept plenty of different views, just not stupid ones. In common usage it clearly implies unreasonable prejudice, though I'd grant you the dictionary definition doesn't stipulate that. And the difference between "hateful" and "hate-filled" is rather substantial, and therefore by definition not pedantry.

I'm a professional writer, man. I can do this all night long... : p

secombe, I love you and I want to marry you.

How dare you ignore the line.

How dare you ignore the line.

FUCK YOU AND YOUR FUCKING LINE, YOU FUCKING CUNT.

Also, there should have been a question mark at the end of that line, not a full stop.

I think Stu and retibra are going to end up kissing.

Look at them begrudgingly admiring each other, realising the other isn't as dumb as they'd both first thought.

Wooooo!

Want me to do blowhard, heckler, etc, Next?
;D

Actually, I'll have a go, because I'm getting no bastard cards in this poker game at all.

"blowhard" in my dictionary is defined as "empty boaster". What have I been boasting about?

And "heckle" is given as "interrupt somebody with shouting", and I don't think it's possible to interrupt someone on an internet forum (certainly unless you're a mod, and tricky even then).

TWO SWINGS, TWO MISSES. NEXT!

Whoa. I'm one of the people who treats people respectfully around here.
The line was simply a good natured observation that the matters of this dark day appear to be drawing to a close.

I say again. Whoa.

He was joking, el_pollo!

He was spoofing himself.

Whoa. I'm one of the people who treats people respectfully around here.
The line was simply a good natured observation that the matters of this dark day appear to be drawing to a close.

I say again. Whoa.

See if I ever assume someone's intelligent enough to get an obvious joke again.

Thick as well, eh?

Thanks!