Eurogamer's Best of E3 2009 Comments by Oli Welsh

This comment-thread really brings out the worst of the haters.

While I find it fun sometimes to read those console war threads this one is just ugly and shows the insecurity of one-console-owners all too much. They don't even love their machine, they just hate all the others for their accomplishments.

(ignoring the fnaboys.. and if i did - i'd probably only see 2 posts)

Best tech award for me goes to the sony motion thing.. Worked perfectly, no glitches - and more "real world" apps than the eye toy rip off.

I'd also pick that mod-racing game too as "game of the show"

but then i'm only going by videos ... proof is obviously in the playing (Which all the retards on this thread seem to have missed)

"It's MARIO. MARIO that we've been playing as for umpteen frigging years now. Mario. Again. With the whole same supporting cast. Again. Again and again and again and again. Do you not get bored of it? Honestly?"


Do you not get bored playing the same fps/racing game over and over and over again - but with different cast?

WISE UP.

Most people here are adults. Most adults here have played fucking Mario to death and is sick of it hence comments. No doubt its a great franchise and gaming experience, but seriously can we move on from Mario to something else after 20 years.

/hates mario.

>Most people here are adults.

LOL! I'm guessing most are teenagers.

> Most adults here have played fucking Mario to death and is sick of it hence comments.

Most mario games play significantly differently from each other. There were 4 mario games announced this year.. each plays differently.

Now what would you prefer?

4 different games which play differently - but have the same main character
or
10 brown fps games which all play the exact same - but with different characters?

Honestly - the first half of microsofts presentation, it felt like all the games on show merged into one.

>but seriously can we move on from Mario to something else after 20 years.

how many halo games were announced again?

"(ignoring the fnaboys.. and if i did - i'd probably only see 2 posts)

Best tech award for me goes to the sony motion thing.. Worked perfectly, no glitches - and more "real world" apps than the eye toy rip off."

Irony?

>Irony?

I thought everyone thought i was a nintendo fanboy? Am I a sony one now (just because i thought they showed the best games out of all 3? And the best tech?)

make up your minds!

firstly it's difficult to comment on any games that the majority of us haven't played,

However based on the last mario game that even 20 odd years on they are still innovating enough to stand out amongst the hordes of generic games that are around.


on another note
imo if you hate mario or slag off miyamoto I really don't see how you can call yourself a gamer

@ smelly

I don't know what kind of fanboy you are, but that comment certainly wasn't without bias.

The Sony Wii-mote ripoff was tech of the show, but the Eyetoy ripoff was just a ripoff? LOL

And I'd say the Wand was more a ripoff than Natal. Eyetoy doesn't have infrared sensors and crap!

LOL@Smelly really words cant begin to describe how rediculous he look's there with the above mentioned quote.

Les is exactly the same... I expected no less though, so its quite satisfying that really since anyone who still doesnt see it now has no place calling themselves unbiased in the slightest, that or you arent too bright.

Do they actually know how obvious it looks though to the people who still bother to listen to their poorly masked(why even attempt to pretend you arent anti-ms) Anti-MS waffle?

>imo if you hate mario or slag off miyamoto I really don't see how you can call yourself a gamer

+1

and imho - most of those that do, are probably only playing "mainstream" fps games anyhows.. and as such are (ironically) the casual gamers who they keep blasting hate at.

>The Sony Wii-mote ripoff was tech of the show, but the Eyetoy ripoff was just a ripoff?

Erm... Im sorry.. but when i waggle my wiimote - do i see myself in game holding the sword? No. The sony tech can be used for LOTS of different applications.. And I think you'll find they've been demoing this idea since the first eye toy (but the ps2 didnt have the power to do it and play a game), so if anything they were before nintendo..


>but the Eyetoy ripoff was just a ripoff?

you said it - not me.

"Do they actually know how obvious it looks though to the people who still bother to listen to their poorly masked Anti-MS waffle?"


Erm.. anyone who has my gamertag (if you need "proof" pm me and i'll send my tag to you) can see that i spend more time playing my 360 than the wii - and i dont even own a ps3!

Currently playing Burnout Paradise and fallout 3.

Im not "anti" any console. I'm "anti" fanboys talking nonsense on forums.. and i'm "anti" generic fps games.

Im not "pro" any console. I'm "pro" fun games (mario/burnout paradise/etc), and i'm also "pro" games that i can sink my teeth into (rpgs mainly)

No smelly you are and always have been closet MS hater(yes you own a 360 but you resented having to buy one at the time you bought it, for the latest games).

So a simple hater then just like Les and a few others, the only reason you mask it(and Im pretty darn certain of this) is because you know nobody at all would be left to read your waffle if you didnt atleast feign some objectivity... mention you own one but never play it, you know the same old shit you get on all sides of this fanboy era. It doesnt work so dont try it... the fact that you pick the "wii-mote ripoff" which had a piss poor last minute("oooh shit we need to show something to go up against natal") demo which was clearly not going to be shown quite so early if not for Natal over something that was actually unique and well presented(things which you probably preach to everyone is why you prefer Nintendo... innovation ect)... reeks of someone that cannot stand to see MS get any credit. Yet you are over eager to give Nintendo and even Sony(just as long as its not that nasty MS) credit for next to nothing.

>No smelly you are and always have been closet MS hater

No calgon - i'm a "out of the closet" anti-"msoft-fanboy-who-slags-off-any-other-machine-or-games-
which-arent-fps-games" hater


>mention you own one but never play it

Erm.. Did i not just say it gets the most use?

surely therefor i've just SLAGGED off my beloved wii!!! OH NOES!

*sigh*

children

Smelly dude, you call people children yet your posts are probably the most immature here (again)... *sigh*

"Erm... Im sorry.. but when i waggle my wiimote - do i see myself in game holding the sword? No. The sony tech can be used for LOTS of different applications.. And I think you'll find they've been demoing this idea since the first eye toy (but the ps2 didnt have the power to do it and play a game), so if anything they were before nintendo.."

And Natal can't be used for lots of applications - containing every feature you mentioned and then some?

Natal seriously makes the Wand look like already old tech. If you can't see that or don't know why, then I doubt you'll allow me to explain.

>containing every feature you mentioned and then some?

like looking at the bottom of your shoe?

>Smelly dude, you call people children yet your posts are probably the most immature here

Ah i see.. Internet logic 101 - if you dont agree with the shit being spouted by the masses.. then you're a fanboy.. if you try to show you're not a fanboy - then you're obviously a fanboy of another machine. If you try to prove you play machine 3 more than the first 2 you've just been accused of being a "fanboy" of.. then somehow you're now immature?

No Smelly it's not that you disagree, we all do at some point it's what makes comments thread interesting (or hilarious at times!). It's how you do it my friend......

"*Sigh* forum gamers are retards. "

"How DARE they pick a game which ISNT a fps? That MUST mean they DONT know what they're talking about! "

"(ignoring the fnaboys.. and if i did - i'd probably only see 2 posts) "

"LOL! I'm guessing most are teenagers."

"*sigh* children"

"Ah i see.. Internet logic 101 - if you dont agree with the shit being spouted by the masses.. then you're a fanboy.. if you try to show you're not a fanboy - then you're obviously a fanboy of another machine. If you try to prove you play machine 3 more than the first 2 you've just been accused of being a "fanboy" of.. then somehow you're now immature? "

........makes you look like a spoilt 10 year old, and that's just one page of one thread!

Smelly its irrelevant what you play more, I've formed my opinion of you by recalling and comparing your posts from all sides here over a long period of time as other people probably have(except alot of those probably put you on ignore which is a feature I barely ever use, you are consistant with your double standards and hypocrisy) you simply do not like MS, if you had the integrity to admit that you might actually get some respect, right now though most people probably think you are a bit of douche.

Okay - i'll answer this one seriously, as people seem to have forgotten from my earlier posts:

>>containing every feature you mentioned and then some?

As far as im concerned the most important feature for all the "motion sensing" devices (for most games) is the pointing. After all most games are (to my annoyance) fps games.

If you watch sonys presentation, the degree of accuracy in the pointing is far superior to that of the wiimote - in that he can even get in and write his name. Try doing that with the wiimote - and you'll end up with a huge blotchy mess.

But then in contrast you have microsofts presentation. Which just seemed to recognise huge sweeping motions, etc. Look at the "painting" presentation, it could only really detect large movements - and wasnt doing ANYTHING the eyetoy wasnt already doing 5 (or so - dunno the date it came out) years ago..

Then during sonys presentation, you ALWAYS had real time 1 on 1 representation on screen - without ANY bugs or anything going wrong. Most of microsofts demo was pre-recorded, but the bit that didnt - immediately went wrong when he tried to show the bottom of the avatars shoe and the model went inside out with his arm coming out his arse.

Sonys tech also features a camera (something the wii doesnt have) so you can see yourself swinging around in games.

All the games (tech demos) that microsoft showed (like the ball hitting game) were possible on the eyetoy. Okay, the tech has been improved - but i dont see the games themselves being any different than eye-toy style mini games... And the eyetoy was a RIP ROARING success wasnt it?

Oh, and on topic of motion capture - im STILL convinced that sony's tech presentation has been demoed on the ps2 (but due to power cancelled) waay before nintendo announced the wiimote...

>you are consistant with your double standards and hypocrisy

See, that's called "not being a fanboy"

if you want to just support one machine and one type of game.. then bully for you.. I personally think that's a bit sad, but each to their own.

I'll support whichever machine/game i think is showing the most potential at any given time - because i like playing GAMES.

So yes.. i "change sides" a lot, but then i never really have a "side". So if that's double standards and hypocisy.. then fine whatever.

>........makes you look like a spoilt 10 year old, and that's just one page of one thread!

Read the posts on the first 2 pages.. imho - those are from spoilt kids... but then you wont think that - because THEY agree with you...

>paraphrasing : "Admit it smell you hate microsoft"

Yes i have had periods where i hated microsoft (Especially after my TENTH failure/return).

Just like i've had periods where i hated sony (still waiting for the ps3 to become cheap)

and indeed nintendo (why isnt it in high-def dammit?)

I'm a FAN of GAMES!!! Fucking hell, is this a concept that retarded forum fanboys struggle to understand or what? fucking hell.. and they say gaming makes kids stupid.

I should just agree with you lot shouldnt i?

Yes i'm a fanboy (of what i dont know? games?)
Yes i'm childish (for replying to childish drivel)
Yes i'm SURE nsmb will be crap (I dont have any friends to play with)

No m8, you should just STFU

lol.

Smelly so lets get this straight...

But then in contrast you have microsofts presentation. Which just seemed to recognise huge sweeping motions, etc. Look at the "painting" presentation, it could only really detect large movements - and wasnt doing ANYTHING the eyetoy wasnt already doing 5 (or so - dunno the date it came out) years ago..

You dont seem to have paid much attention to what has already been said about Natal... its FAR better than Eyetoy which was just a webcam that you could hook up to the PS2 with some software written for it.

So aside from you being wrong about it being shit and not that accurate... I take you think its just a more advanced/accurate version of eyetoy and for that you dont find it impressive?

Then you go on to say the shitty demonstration of the Playstation motion controller(which was poorly done and did look rushed/last minute inclusion to the show) is actually impressive even though by your own admission its just a more advanced/accurate version of the wii-mote? Riiight, you see you might not even realise it yourself but it looks like subconciously if thats the case you are looking for excuses not to give MS any credit.

Also you are forgetting Natal can be used in conjunction with a controller with its own pointing mechanism/motion sensing which could be extreemly cheep and simple if they thought about it smartly... they could even track a pointer with a simple LED and it would add up to more than that rather predictable controller form Sony but if they bother adding a controller to it Id rather they add everything they need such as triggers, buttons and moition sensors it would add up to a whole lot more than anything you saw in those rather basic demonstrations from Sony(no imagination in them).

Ps3 eyetoy head tracking...Pretty nice if all you need is a cam!

nice!

Wow, the Console Fanboys have mutated into Waggle Fanboys.

Well done The Internet.

Yeah seen that, looks like a copy of the wii-mote hack, which was done ages ago.

Pretty good but given that the guy who did the wii-mote hack which was obviously an inspiration for this demo has been working on the Natal team for years now... I think its a given they are way ahead on this idea. So please dont try and claim it was Sony's idea as its pretty likely theres something for Natal being worked on already perhaps in the form an actual game... hopefully its one of the things that Rare have been up to with Natal.

"Wow, the Console Fanboys have mutated into Waggle Fanboys."

LOL! Run for the hills lads, grab as many PC components as you can, the wagglers are coming!

"Mario is great, what's the problem?"

This. Plain and simple. Go play SMW today and it is as great today as it was when was first released. Don't know about the 4D claim but this could be genius!!!

"But then in contrast you have microsofts presentation. Which just seemed to recognise huge sweeping motions, etc. Look at the "painting" presentation, it could only really detect large movements - and wasnt doing ANYTHING the eyetoy wasnt already doing 5 (or so - dunno the date it came out) years ago.."

I'm wondering if you watched everything they had to show? When they showed Burnout, Natal was certainly capable of tracking more than large sweeping motions.

I think why you're being called a fanboy is because you seem to be choosing to ignore the better features and are focusing rather on the few points which you consider to be bad. Natal is a pretty good leap ahead of the Eyetoy. Eyetoy had neither voice nor facial recognition, nor could it recognize mutiple parties playing the same game. I'm not sure if it recognized 3D either? I'm not taking anything away from the Eyetoy, but it's a few years behind Natal... and the Wand, while maybe accurate and good, is a waste of space. I'm sorry, but it is! Sony is not innovating, but they're searching for an identity by following the pack.

OMG. Just watched Natal for the 1st time on E3. Its the Wii all over again no matter how fancy the bloody tech is inside or lazerwtfsauce. I wonder how much this will go for. And why would I want to move through my dash using gestures? Surely the simplest and easiest way is by controller.

Voice recognition is cool tho. Was there any real games applications on show using this?

"What I don't understand is why they broke away from Microsoft Games Studios when their first two projects turn out to be Halo games and first-person shooters too."

ah, the mysteries of the universe! ;)

i don't get it either.

Ok just for Smelly Im not one for using Wiki as a source for much but in this instance it seems like the best way:

I wondered if I was under appreciating the innovation in the Eyetoy but I cant find anything that suggests otherwise it is a Logitec Webcam designed for a console with some software to go with it.

The EyeToy is a color digital camera device, similar to a webcam, for the PlayStation 2. The technology uses computer vision and Gesture recognition to process images taken by the camera. This allows players to interact with games using motion, color detection and also sound, through its built-in microphone.

The camera is manufactured by Logitech (known as "Logicool" in Japan), although newer EyeToys are manufactured by Namtai. The camera is mainly used for playing EyeToy games developed by Sony and other companies. It is not intended for use as a normal PC camera, although some people have developed unofficial drivers for it.[1] As of November 6, 2008, the EyeToy has sold 10.5 million units worldwide.[2]

Natal really is far more advanced as I said, aside for adding sensors that make it more accurate than the Eyetoy could ever hope to be, its own processor to handle the extra processing required to use it on the console, along with new software technology from MS R&D that brings skeletal mapping and voice recognition that the eyetoy couldnt even hope to do justice with its dated components.(which were barely up to standard even at the time it was released)


An approximately nine-inch (23 cm) wide horizontal bar[7] connected to a small circular base with a ball joint pivot, the Project Natal sensor is designed to be positioned lengthwise above or below the video display. The device features an "RGB camera, depth sensor, multi-array microphone, and custom processor running proprietary software", which provides full-body 3D motion capture, facial recognition, and voice recognition capabilities. The Project Natal sensor's microphone array enables the Xbox 360 to conduct acoustic source localization and ambient noise suppression, allowing for things such as headset-free party chat over Xbox Live.[1]b[›]

The depth sensor consists of an infrared projector combined with a monochrome CMOS sensor, and allows the Project Natal sensor to see in 3D under any ambient light conditions.[8][1]c[›] The active depth-sensing range of the depth sensor is adjustable,d[›] with the Project Natal software capable of automatically calibrating the sensor based on the gameplay and environment conditions, such as the presence of couches.[9]

Project Natal is reportedly based on software technology developed internally by Microsoft and hardware intellectual property acquired from time-of-flight camera developer 3DV Systems.[4][10][11][12][13] Before agreeing to sell all its assets in March 2009,[14] 3DV had been preparing its own depth-sensing webcam controller, known as the ZCam.[15]e[›]

Described by Microsoft personnel as the primary innovation of Project Natal,[12][13][16] the software technology enables advanced gesture recognition, facial recognition, and voice recognition.[11] The skeletal mapping technology shown at E3 2009 was capable of simultaneously tracking multiple users for motion analysis,[11][13][8] with a real-time feature extraction of 48 interest points on a human body.[9] Depending on the person's distance from the sensor, Project Natal is capable of tracking models that can identify individual fingers.

TheNinkyNonk, seems as though we're the only two that can see the elephant in this room. Sony deserve publisher of the year of the back of that showing at E3. There certainly isn't a better time to be a PS3 owner.

"I'm wondering if you watched everything they had to show? When they showed Burnout, Natal was certainly capable of tracking more than large sweeping motions. "

Erm.. yes.. my point was that it obviously cant detect small pin point movements to the point that you could sign your name - or point exactly to the pixel where you want on the screen. It could only (Seemingly) detect MOTION.

Why else do you think they had to do that "sillohette" thing to get the shape of the elephant? if it was THAT accurate then surely you'd be able to just paint the elephant on?

And I didnt say the whole thing was nothing more than the eye toy..

But:

1) the painting presentation could (without the voice recognition) be done exactly the same on the eyetoy (lower def obviously)
2) ditto to the burnout demo (IF - big if - the eyetoy motion sensing didnt take up so much processing power to the point you COULD play a game with it)
3) for the MOST part the "hitting balls" demo couldve been done on the eyetoy as well.. except obviously without 3d depth.

etc etc.

I personally cant see how natal will be of any use for anything apart from mini game fests - and be doomed to the same fate as the wii.

But I *CAN* see sonys thing being used for fps games, etc etc.

ronuds, i'll agree Sony aren't innovating, but do you honestly believe Natal would be a topic for discussion if Wii wasn't on the market???

"Natal really is far more advanced as I said, aside for adding sensors that make it more accurate than the Eyetoy could ever hope to be,... etc etc *snip*"


Sigh..

I *DIDNT* say that natal WAS the eyetoy. It's OBVIOUSLY not, it can track 3d movement, recreate bones, etc etc. The eyetoy was LAST GEN tech.. so in 5 years, i'd HOPE things have moved on.

My point (for the hard of thinking - such as yourself) was that the painting app shown was no more sensitive than the eyetoy (and indeed nothing the eyetoy couldnt do), etc etc.. I wont go on as i'm repeating myself.

My point being - and i'll make it again. There are MORE *Real world* gaming (i.e. REAL games) applications for sony's device than microsofts one (Which will be doomed to wii style mini game fests)

EDIT:

"nor could it recognize mutiple parties playing the same game. "

erm.. yes it could...

http://www.videogamesblogger.com/wp-cont...

smelly but you dont even seem to know much about Natal... I ve just shown you that most of your critisms are based on what you'd prefer to beleive, read the quote above and it should tell you that its more accurate than you gave it credit for. You are basing everything around the painting demo? Well it could be that its not quite as accurate for pointing but that can be solved by introducing a controller designed to go with it, also everything they chose to show was well presented and in a state worthy of being shown unlike Sony's... they will have lots that being worked on that we havent seen yet.

You DID say "its only capable of detecting large sweeping jestures" you like to be selective in what you actually take notice of... which is mostly negatives concerning MS I find Natal way more promising than that controller you speak of as I said.. it would be cheap to add a controller to that package and youd beable to do everything you can hope from the Sony one and MORE.

>ronuds, i'll agree Sony aren't innovating,

So they DIDNT release the eyetoy YEARS ago? And they didnt start doing motion sensing before nintendo?

You're right.. they arent innovating.

What they REALLY needed to do was show us the bottom of the avatars shoe...



>smelly but you dont even seem to know much about Natal...

*sigh* whatever you say.

smelly you dont though you've shown yourself to be pretty clueless here in all honesty. Eyetoy was a standard webcam with some unique software that Sony took credit for. Thats not really innovation.

smelly, chill man. i was referring to their "wand". it looks like the wii motion plus with the eye toy. i agree Sony had a more convincing showing for real world application... but lets be honest eye toy suggested at the innovative possibilities, while Wii delivered it. neither MS or Sony can claim to be the trend shifters Ninty have been this gen... Whether those trends are to all our tastes is debatable, of course! ;)

@Calgon : And natal is a 3d camera which microsoft bought - with some software on it?

Erm.. um.. the innovation is with being the first to do it with games you fucktard.


EDIT : Sorry for the lack of decorum and the profanity - i just have low tollerance for stupidity.

>neither MS or Sony can claim to be the trend shifters Ninty have been this gen.

+1

.. even though sony did it first.

God bless teh interwebs, or something. I did laugh hard at the "most people here are adults" comment, breathtakingly wrong.

The 3 most important things about a game...1) Gameplay 2) Gameplay 3) Gameplay

Can anyone (who has played it, obviously) give a genuine answer as to why New Super Mario Bros Wii shouldn't be top of the pile?

smelly MS designed their own camera and software is the difference you dickwad! Sony probably just bought the idea off logitec and relied on 3rd party for the games.

EDIT: Bwahahaha smelly.... no you're the moron, you stubborn little crybaby! Just fess up when youve made an error instead of trying to dig your way out maybe? I dont know why Im wasting my finger-breath you will never change.

".. even though sony did it first."

i concur. :)

Whether I play Mario by myself or with 3 other people, its still ultimately the same Super Mario World I played back on the SNES. Don't get me wrong I loved it but something vastly different is needed. Super Mario Galaxy was getting there so it seems odd to take a step back but try and claim its a step forward.

"ronuds, i'll agree Sony aren't innovating, but do you honestly believe Natal would be a topic for discussion if Wii wasn't on the market???"

I can't seem to find where I actually said that? Of course neither of them would be doing this if not for Nintendo's domination.

".. even though sony did it first"

Do you guys honestly believe Sony is the first to introduce a motion sensing camera that works with games?

A little more from Wikipedia you might like to see then:
"The EyeToy was originally devised by Dr. Richard Marks, who had the idea of connecting a web camera to a PlayStation 2 and using it as a peripheral to play video games. The idea of using cameras in games was not new, as it was previously used in many arcade games and toys such as the Game Boy Camera and the Dreameye digital camera for the Sega Dreamcast, the latter of which affected the development of the EyeToy"

LOL, Sony did it first! Does anyone do research before making a bunch of claims over the intertubes? Looks to me like another Sony ripoff job - this time from the Dreamcast.