Euro PS3 limited due to costs

By Robert Purchese Published 26 February, 2007

Too pricey, says Sony AU boss.

Sony has confirmed that the new model PlayStation 3 for Europe has had its backwards compatibility reduced due to costs.

Sony released the final specifications for the Euro PS3 last week, revealing that the machine would only play a 'limited range' of PlayStation 2 titles.

Speaking to GameSpot, Sony Australia MD Michael Ephraim stated that PAL PS3's will not contain the 'emotion engine' chip - the PS2's CPU. Instead, the technology will be emulated.

"Clearly costs is one of the [reasons]. If software is cheaper than the cost of the chip, then why not do that?," said Ephraim.

Head over to GamesIndustry.biz for the full story.

Picture of Robert.

About Robert Purchese

Bertie is Eurogamer's Senior Staff Writer. When he's not hunting down news stories he's often found playing with his kids or gabbling about fantasy games and strange online worlds.

Read more articles from Robert by visiting the Robert Purchese archive page.

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Comments (133) Latest comment 5 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Beano #1 5 years ago

    "Clearly costs is one of the [reasons]. If software is cheaper than the cost of the chip, then why not do that?,"

    Because it will piss off customers and make the product worse?

  • Penguinzoot #2 5 years ago

    "Clearly costs is one of the [reasons]. If software is cheaper than the cost of the chip, then why not do that?,"

    ... err, because its crap thats why.

  • mkreku #3 5 years ago

    And because it's false mathematics. Hardware costs a bit initially, but it evens out and becomes a non factor after a few million units. A software solution does not do the job as well and will need to be continually updated for the functionality to inch closer to the hardware standard.

  • SeesThroughAll #4 5 years ago

    Clearly costs is one of the [reasons]. If software is cheaper than the cost of the chip, then why not do that?

    Then why didn't you do that to the Americans and the Japanese too? WHY NOT INDEED?

  • neilka #5 5 years ago

    "If software is cheaper than the cost of the chip, then why not do that?"

    Because you're expecting us to pay (a lot) more for it, perhaps?

  • dirigiblebill #6 5 years ago

    Does anyone know roughly how much it costs to produce an emotion engine these days?

  • Altrezia #7 5 years ago

    I dont get this anti-sony stuff. If you want to play ps2 games, buy a ps2, they are dirt cheap now. If you already have ps2 games and a ps2, just keep it. its not a big deal.

  • Steve007 #8 5 years ago

    I don't give a toss about BC. If I wanted to play PS2 games I'd get my PS2 out the loft!

    Being a gamer who looks to the present and future, I'm buying the PS3 for PS3 games oddly enough.....

  • Daikon #9 5 years ago

    @Altrezia

    Clearly you have no idea how many boxes and wires are making a mess around my TV at the moment.

  • Mordum #10 5 years ago

    @SeesThroughAll

    Exactly, and why are'nt the savings being passed onto us the consumers? Still, all the time people are happy to put up with this, and not speak out by not spending their money, then these companies will keep treating people like this.
    I myself have little interest in BC, but just knowing that America and Japan have got extra for the same cost (less in fact) is enough to really get me riled.
    Edited by 1 at 26/02/07 @ 10:50

  • Penguinzoot #11 5 years ago

    "Clearly costs is one of the [reasons]. If software is cheaper than the cost of the chip, then why not do that?"

    So the reduced manufacturing costs are being passed on to PAL consumers then? Great! Oh wait ....

  • Xerx3s #12 5 years ago

    So we pay the most and they save the most money on us? Nice one sony.

  • quantumsheep #13 5 years ago

    Here we go again!

    /straps in for rest of day with thermos flask of tea and donuts...


    Edit: To be fair, they can't win. People moan about the lies, now this guy tells the truth and people *still* moan. Bless 'em, eh?
    Edited by 1 at 26/02/07 @ 10:54

  • SomaticSense #14 5 years ago

    This is going to be a complete car crash of a thread in a couple of hours....

    ""Clearly costs is one of the [reasons]. If software is cheaper than the cost of the chip, then why not do that?"

    Then why didn't you do that to the Americans and the Japanese too? WHY NOT INDEED?    "

    Bang right. To those who still deny that we as Europeans get treated appallingly by Sony I call shenanigans. This is total bollocks. Sony crossed the line regarding the PS3's European 'release' (if you could call it that, cock up is porobably more appropriate) long ago, but this only makes it about 200% worse, and confirms that we are only here to fund the console's manufacture for Japan and the US. The utter bullshit excuses are getting ridiculous now to be frank.

    I'm not the first to say it, and I'll be far from the last (in this thread in particular), but Sony can fuck off out of Europe and take their console with them as far as I'm concerned if that's going to be their attitude to us and the European market.
    I'm sick of them exploiting us in order for them to be able to afford to treat their US and Japan to the better quality products.

  • SeesThroughAll #15 5 years ago

    Still, all the time people are happy to put up with this, and not speak out by not spending their money, then these companies will keep treating people like this.

    No they're not mate. I can speak for myself when I say BC was interesting to me (I never owned neither a PS1 nor a PS2), and cutting back on that, especially when this cutback only affects europeans has made me pretty much give up on buying it around launch. In any case, I'll wait for launch day to see which games will run so far, but I'm not expecting too much if Sony keeps that information a secret from us. So... fuck them.

    I guess I'll probably get myself a Wii eventually, when third party publishers give a bit more variety to it's library.

    Not the end of the world, but I don't like getting shafted for the sake of pleasing yankees.

  • brooza #16 5 years ago

    Does anyone know roughly how much it costs to produce an emotion engine these days?

    $27, I believe

  • Azazel #17 5 years ago

    /wonders how many different answers people are going to give to the why not? line...

  • in5ane #18 5 years ago

    How many hundreds of millions of these emotion engine chips have they produced over the years? We're dealing with a chip designed and fabbed almost a decade ago... the actual cost of that single chip should be mere pence by now.

    Surely the redesigned internal PS3 board, the programmers annual salary and negative PR will cost Sony more in the long run.

  • Beano #19 5 years ago

    "Then why didn't you do that to the Americans and the Japanese too?"

    They will be getting this "new" PS3 model soon enough... don't worry ;)

  • SomaticSense #20 5 years ago

    I dont get this anti-sony stuff. If you want to play ps2 games, buy a ps2, they are dirt cheap now. If you already have ps2 games and a ps2, just keep it. its not a big deal.

    I don't give a toss about BC. If I wanted to play PS2 games I'd get my PS2 out the loft!

    Being a gamer who looks to the present and future, I'm buying the PS3 for PS3 games oddly enough.....

    Some of us actually have principles. I already have a PS2, but that's not the point. The fact of the matter is that Sony are charging more for a console that does less stuff than it does in the other regions.

    What I don't get is why some people are so loyal to console manufacturers, and are willing to constantly bend over and pick up the soap so to speak. Do you not understand that the more you put up with it the worse it'll get get? That lead to the now legendary (for the wrong reasons) "Europeans historically don't mind delays" comment. Because so many people are willing to bend over and get fucked by them.
    Edited by 1 at 26/02/07 @ 11:03

  • GamesConnoisseur #21 5 years ago

    Those of you who said 'just get PS2 if want to play old PS2 games', the whole point of PS3 as total entertainment centre was that it can do everything, including playing PS2 games that will utilise progressive scan and look so much better on HDTV and all that from one box. Instead of the mess of wires and consoles cluttering up the limited space below HDTV. PS2 still got killer apps coming for god sake!

    My view is that whilst we European pays the most (double what Japanese pay) but we get inferior product to USA and Japanese? Dont deny it, it is inferior and loyal Sony fans should consider importing USA console instead of getting European rip off!

  • JHuxley #22 5 years ago

    Err...if they're cutting down costs, then why can't they pass that saving on to the consumer? Why should we have to pay more and get less? This makes no sense Sony. I'm not buying a PS3.

  • Crashmasters #23 5 years ago

    Relax guys. Sony has to make a profit too.
    As good European consumers let's give them some extra money and let them save on the production costs.

    I propose they remove the blu-ray player in the PAL version as well. Most of us don't have a HDTV anyway.

  • Xerx3s #24 5 years ago

    Edit: To be fair, they can't win. People moan about the lies, now this guy tells the truth and people *still* moan. Bless 'em, eh?

    Bollocks. They CAN win. 1) Stop lying. 2) Stop bending over europeans. The people don't moan just to moan, they do it for a reason. Fix the reason, and it will go away. But sony hasn't done that so it will go on.

  • Skeletor #25 5 years ago

    "Clearly costs is one of the [reasons]. If software is cheaper than the cost of the chip, then why not do that?,"

    Because software emulation is not a substitute for proper hardware bc. and because it shows that Sony lies to us Europeans, treating us like second class customers.
    And to all the smart fanboys defending this scam:
    You wanna play Resistance, Motorstorm AND Okami, Gradius V, GoW2 etc.? According to you guys it's pretty simple...just get a PS3 (600€) and a PS2 (the official price in most Eu countries is still 120€!), then a proper memcard for your PS2 (ca. 30€). That's 750 € and you still don't have a freaking game with it! Bargain I'd say. Not to mention that you now have 2 machines under your TV which clearly sucks if it could be just one...
    If the PS2 is so dirt cheap, then why is Sony not putting in the emotion engine chip set?! The answer is pretty simple: They want you to buy a PS2 or are planning to distribute the patched PS2 games over their online service (not for free of course...).
    Edited by 1 at 26/02/07 @ 11:10

  • dadrester #26 5 years ago

    Question
    Clearly costs is one of the [reasons]. If software is cheaper than the cost of the chip, then why not do that?
    Answer
    Sony released the final specifications for the Euro PS3 last week, revealing that the machine would only play a 'limited range' of PlayStation 2 titles.

  • Agent_Orange #27 5 years ago

    "Clearly costs is one of the [reasons]. If software is cheaper than the cost of the chip, then why not do that?,"


    Err, hang on minute there mister - us Europeans will be paying more anyway for this. Bastards.

  • t8yman #28 5 years ago

    hahahahahahaha, the comedy never ends. taxi for sony

  • Steroyd #29 5 years ago

    /Is still hoping by "limited" they mean PS1 software emulated on PS2 limited.

    Full B/C is the only reason I'm getting a PS3 this early.

  • bushwod #30 5 years ago

    RIP OFF !!!!!

  • playgen #31 5 years ago

    "Is still hoping by "limited" they mean PS1 software emulated on PS2 limited"

    I very much doubt that. Knowing this announcement would upset people, Sony would have very carefully choosen what words to use. And you can bet "limited" really means about as limited as possible, otherwise they would have used a more optomistic word like "Most" games are compatible

  • Rash' #32 5 years ago

    I've emailed Watchdog about this and I encourage you all to do the same. The company must be held to account for this: watchdog@bbc.co.uk

  • Psi #33 5 years ago

    ^^ edit, great idea rash great idea!!! ^^ least it'll inform the parents about the price differnce when their kids scream on about getting one.

    erm, this aint a case of paying slightly over the odds compared to the rest of the world. we're getting fucking owned. I think this is some billionaire's joke, bet you a doller we can still sell our console to them at 3 times the price as the rest of the world.

    dear fucking god man, its very very very expensive. i'm on a decent wage and would not even dream of paying that much to play a handfull of computer games!

    and now no BC :D great idea, so you can keep re-selling the ps2 over and over as their lazers pack in after 12 months....
    Edited by 1 at 26/02/07 @ 11:21

  • GamesConnoisseur #34 5 years ago

    Rash great idea! The best poster in this thread and now banging away to good old watchdog and give Sony chance to be grilled!

  • #35 5 years ago

    /email sent to Watchdog

  • djkix #36 5 years ago

    Has the BC debacle made it to the mainstream media yet? I reckon a few hundred emails fowarding the press release to The Sun should do it.

  • IMadeThis #37 5 years ago

    Another thing, why is this being announced less than FOUR weeks away from the machines release? Maybe they've got too many pre-orders and so are trying to cull a few?

    Nah, didn't think so.

  • Overlush #38 5 years ago

    Is the long term plan to do the same in other markets, or just in Europe? If it is the long term plan to do it across the board, the early models will be highly sought after. What will Sony's policy be if an emotion-engine equipped PS3 is returned faulty? Will they replace it with a re-conditioned non-emotion engine equipped model? Hmm...

  • quantumsheep #39 5 years ago

    "Edit: To be fair, they can't win. People moan about the lies, now this guy tells the truth and people *still* moan. Bless 'em, eh?

    Bollocks. They CAN win. 1) Stop lying. 2) Stop bending over europeans. The people don't moan just to moan, they do it for a reason. Fix the reason, and it will go away. But sony hasn't done that so it will go on."

    It was actually said with tongue firmly in cheek sir! I just found it amusing is all ;)

  • gal2319 #40 5 years ago

    i'm one of the few who got a ps2 just to play MGS again.
    i thought i would do the same when ps3 comes out... but!
    no way in hell now.
    been playing socom 3 for almost a year now, and still waiting for the patch to come
    out!
    seeing this, the prices, the limited ps3's i have no choice but to do what i should've
    done a year ago - get an X360.

    Bye sony, you just lost a huge fan.

  • #41 5 years ago

    When you email Watchdog, CC the following on the email, but don't be a tard about it, be sensible but firm:

    nick_sharples@scee.net

    nick_caplin@scee.net

  • JediMasterMalik #42 5 years ago

    You know if they are doing this for Europe, it's pretty much guaranteed that the same will happen to every machine produced at around the same, PAL or not.

  • IMadeThis #43 5 years ago

    "Sony intends to release a full list of PS2 titles that are compatible with the PlayStation 3 on the day the console launches in Europe, March 23."

    So they don't know yet? Or, damage limitation....?

  • Hughes. #44 5 years ago

    I still don't know what to make about the PS2 games situation. It was obvious it was going to happen, as only software emulation was going to get the PS1 downloads working. Good PS1 emulation was quite common on PCs when the PS2 launched, but even very powerful PCs are struggling to get PS2 emulation running at double digit framerates. It makes me wonder if by the time PS4 comes around whether backwards compatibility will be possible at all.

    It's a kick in the nuts to brand loyalty, and to wait until a huge number of people got their pre-orders in to announce it is a real pisser. Even though most people didn't use the feature much on the PS2, with such a slew of brilliant PS2 titles just released and awaiting release there will be a much greater likelihood of people waiting for the next big PS3 game to want to slap an unfinished PS2 game in.

  • Garulon #45 5 years ago

    "I dont get this anti-sony stuff. If you want to play ps2 games, buy a ps2, they are dirt cheap now. "

    What if you were trading in your PS2 to offset the PS3's LUDICROUS pricing in Europe? A lot (well, relatively a lot) of people were planning on doing this, now they either bin a lot of their games (good luck hitting the website whilst queueing up on Launch Day) or get an unofficial £30-40 added on to their "cost" of the PS3. Likewise I don't get Sony's anti-European stuff; usually a company tries to make it's lead market really well rather than visibly go in dry multiple times.

  • ccfb #46 5 years ago

    I would have thought if costs were cheaper, then Euroland should get a price drop to compensate?

    Won't, of course. But should.

  • Darren #47 5 years ago

    I can understand Sony's reasons for swapping from a hardware solution to software-based emulation as they said a year or so ago that this is what they intended to do. Fair enough.

    What pisses me off though is that what was initially a "bonus" for early US and Japanese PS3 owners is not going to happen in Europe. Why on earth didn't Sony release early PAL PS3's with the same hardware as the US and Japan and then switch over, say, in three months time thus giving us early adopters a similar "thank you" present from Sony? We're already paying more than the US and Japan so why isn't the European PS3 cheaper? Sony have admitted that they're switching to software emulation to keep costs down but they sure as hell ain't passing those savings onto us.

  • richardiox #48 5 years ago

    So the Euro machine is cheaper to produce and yet retails for way more than the US / Jap models?

    And the increased price isnt due to higher taxes in Europe - although that does contribute. Sony have set the baseline price of the Euro PS3 higher anyway. Surely in effect the European consumer will be subsidising the price-cut Japan price?

  • playgen #49 5 years ago

    cutting costs to save money - because they wasted a huge amount of money developing the Cell processor - only for it to be no more impressive than the Xbox 360's processor anyway
    Edited by 1 at 26/02/07 @ 11:50

  • Darren #50 5 years ago

    "We're dealing with a chip designed and fabbed almost a decade ago... the actual cost of that single chip should be mere pence by now.

    Surely the redesigned internal PS3 board, the programmers annual salary and negative PR will cost Sony more in the long run."

    Agreed.

    Plus you have to take into account that writing software emulators must surely be more expensive and time-consuming in the long run than just releasing firmware updates on machines that have PS2 chips inside them already?

  • barnard666 #51 5 years ago

    You know I really wanted to play shadow of collussus with a component cable and not a crappy composite one...I havent played on my PS2 in ages, the games look so ugly due to the AV connectivity of the thing. I have been looking at grabbing all the PS2 games I missed and playing them on my PS3, as resistance / motor storm are all going to be a bit short lived...

  • OnlyMe #52 5 years ago

    I found Shadow of the Colossus still looked better on a normal SDTV with RGB or S-Video than on a LCD HDTV with component - with the correct settings.

  • Psi #53 5 years ago

    they'll release the hamstringed version at launch fuck all you over, then 12 months later release a slimline model with backwards compatibility for cheaper.

    you wait and see :p

  • Zane #54 5 years ago

    So we pay more than everyone else, for what technically is a lesser product.

    Thanks Sony? :s

    God i wish FFXIII and dMC4 would switch formats.

  • bushwod #55 5 years ago

    You gotta laugh at the dogs dinner PS3 and 360 have made of backward compatibility, while Ninty quietly ship out the wii with full BC for all game cube games and ports for the controllers and memory card.

    Such a shame there aren't many good GC games from it later life then. The irony, eh?

  • Caimbeul #56 5 years ago

    It is now cheaper to make but we are still paying more than anyone else in the world! that means Sony will be making even more money out of the plebs who will buy this at its launch price.

    Go jump Sony, I may not be enamoured with my X360's games but I would rather spend my money on all the cool DS games out there and Buy a kickass graphics card for my PC and still have more money than if I had bought your peice of shit.

  • DanMW #57 5 years ago

    Why not reduce costs from the beginning. We pay the most but you reduce the hardware for us. Thanks Sony, how unprofessional.

  • Xerx3s #58 5 years ago

    It was actually said with tongue firmly in cheek sir! I just found it amusing is all ;)


    LIES! LIES! ALL LIES! MOUHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!

    /straightjacket

  • quantumsheep #59 5 years ago

    :)

  • Psi #60 5 years ago

    bushwod the wii isn't backwards compatible, its just the gamecube 1.2 :D gamecube service pack 1 :D gamecube with bling wheels :D gamecube with a tit job :D ooooo look at the tits on that :D

  • Kafeen #61 5 years ago

    "Sony has confirmed that the new model PlayStation 3 for Europe has had its backwards compatibility reduced due to costs."

    Then why is it still more expencive than every other region?

  • JediMasterMalik #62 5 years ago

    Because they still sell at a massive loss?

  • Kami #63 5 years ago

    I would -LOVE- to see this brought up on Watchdog, that'd be so funny.

    As said, the simple truth is we're getting a lesser product but paying more than anywhere else in the world. We're not getting the savings, Sony are, and this means it's another great Sony PR blunder. They get to save a few quid a machine and we get shafted with a less reliable form of emulation.

    Come on, this is like buying a brand new car and then at the last minute being told they were replacing the 6.8l with a 6.2l, but the price would be the same. You wouldn't stand for that, so why on earth should we take this from Sony? Why pay more for a product when they're clearly trying to save a bit of money at the customers expense?

    The PS3 really IS like watching a car crash in true High-Def super-slow-motion... a true masterclass in how to blow your market leader position...

  • _Price_ #64 5 years ago

    So Mich.....going to pass this saving on to the consumers?

  • GamesConnoisseur #65 5 years ago

    "The PS3 really IS like watching a car crash in true High-Def super-slow-motion... a true masterclass in how to blow your market leader position..."

    Except I believe they will retain their market leader in Europe at least, there are too many Sony loyalists, I got my mates over on Fri night for games and beerfest. Played on Gear of War, RB6, Fight Night and even couple of wild session on Wii playing bowling and all look like a total wankers!

    Couple of my mates still say they are planning to get PS3 even though I said I would get PS3 later but too much of a 'rip off' at launch, advised them to wait but no! Sony brand is king, and that is depressing! Those two mates are not regular gamers they are so casual that they get annual FIFA updates and so on!

  • Scimarad #66 5 years ago

    It is a great machine (at least my US one is) but they do seem intent on screwing the whole thing up...

    Is it really possible to be this crap?

  • Rash' #67 5 years ago

    To those supporting the Watchdog cause; email them: watchdog@bbc.co.uk
    The more mail they get the more likely it is they'll investigate the issue. Come on, don't let them get away with this.

  • Scimarad #68 5 years ago

    I wonder if the 'mail Watchdog' campaign will be quite so enthusiastic next time Nintendo or Microsoft screw us over? :-)

  • Rash' #69 5 years ago

    Scimarad; That's off the point. I'm a big Sony supporter and really admire what they've done for this industry, but this is taking the piss.

  • Riggers #70 5 years ago

    Sooo...

    Europe gets the PS3 later
    Europe gets less choice (no 20gb model)
    Europe gets to pay more
    Europe gets an inferior machine.

    Hmmm

  • WhyMeeeeee #71 5 years ago

    and still amazon and play can't shift their preorder allocation.

    selling well sony u suckers

  • Maledictus010 #72 5 years ago

    Maybe one of the saddest things in all of this is that it doesn't matter at all. John Doe is gonna buy the machine anyway, 'cause he either doesn't know or doesn't care ('wow, cool graphics!'). That's what has sustained the euro market anyway, no matter how crappy the game (movie licenses anyone? crappy conversions then?), people buy it anyway so there's no incentive for the companies to do better. Same thing for the hardware. Sony laughs because we all buy a console anyway and gets away with it. European-wide boycot anyone?

    In addition, if sony keeps selling the PS2, it's not that big a deal. Yes, more cabling and stuff, but at least you can keep playing. My hope is they don't phase out the PS2 as quick as they did with the PS.
    Edited by 2 at 26/02/07 @ 13:25

  • CorporalSpank #73 5 years ago

    I've sent my Watchdog e-mail. That's my good deed done for the year then.

  • JediMasterMalik #74 5 years ago

    VF5? Motorstorms out in a couple of weeks. Not downloaded flOw yet?

  • skillian #75 5 years ago

    I think Maledictus is right, PS3 will still be a success over here.

    Europe = PS3
    Asia = Wii
    US = 360

    That's what I reckon could happen. Wouldn't it be strange but kinda cool to have a different market leader in each territory?

  • Tweakmonkey #76 5 years ago

    Why shaft the Europeans? This is unfair. Is our PS3 going to be £100 cheaper now because that's the cost of a new PS2.

  • JediMasterMalik #77 5 years ago

    Well they're not sticking a whole PS2 in there are they? Just a chip

    And I maintain that both the US and JP will get these revised models very soon.

  • TONYgr #78 5 years ago

    So thats why it costs 659 euro in greece!

  • skillian #79 5 years ago

    And I maintain that both the US and JP will get these revised models very soon.

    I'm sure you're right. Joystiq (yeah, I know) seem to think so too: http://ww w.joystiq.com/2007/02/24/u-s-ne...

  • citizenHUNTER #80 5 years ago

    Isn't it about time someone took them to court for false advertising (as I'm sure this cut back in PS3 abilities will not be explained in any detail to the mass of consumers just expecting it to play PS2 games out the box), as well as someone doing something in government about the extortionate pricing of consoles in general, not just PS3, being way overpriced in Europe, even taking into account taxes and all the other crap they usually claim about shipping costs as well, la dee da...


    It's a bit irritating because with consoles especially we cannot really choose to import cheaper versions (with PS3 isn't it actually now illegal, like with PSP) and even if we could we're limited by region coded games.. we're basically held to ransom and no one in government seems to be bothered that we're being shafted. Some kind of European boycotting of American and Japanese goods would be nice to bring these prices into line.

    And the heads of multi national media empires should be kidnapped and made to make everything Region 0, so you can buy a game from anywhere and play it anywhere.

    Thank you

  • jiroczech #81 5 years ago

    Too pricey? He got that right.

    When do we get to see some comments from "Europe's most popular and respected destination for videogames editorial and debate."? I can't wait. EG and GamesIndustry.biz seem to have fuck all to say about anything. It's like Reuters but duller. The only editorial and debate on here is from users in the comments threads.

  • skillian #82 5 years ago

    When do we get to see some comments from "Europe's most popular and respected destination for videogames editorial and debate."?

    Agreed. EG don't seem to have any opinion on this issue one way or the other, despite the fact the public clearly does.

  • enzima #83 5 years ago

    Mind you Jiro, 2 posts against (read: stating the truth) Sony=MS fanboy, 2 against MS=Sony fanboy. If you want people to take you seriously on this site, talk bad about both sides. If you want EG to take you seriously.....well, forget it, anyway Sony got us from the balls, and as someone already said, its likely they will sell-out in europe. I just hope this launch doesnt set a standard for what will follow next....I´m getting tired of seeing europe treated as a third world country (in the gaming world, thats what we are!)

  • Calgon #84 5 years ago

    EG typically only put the boot in when it's MS, have a look back and you will notice it... but hey atleast they actually cover Sony blunders as they happen and not a week later when theyve asked Sony for comments/damage control.

    This is a non issue for me... prefered Xbox to PS2 anyway and I'm still not interested in buying a PS3. Ive yet to see any reason for one at any price(apart from blue-ray which I just dont want/need). Sony fans have every right to be annoyed though, I can see that, its a shame that no matter how much they mess up or screw customer over in that region, somehow they always do well. They must know that they can sell on brand name alone in Europe more than any other region?

  • rider2006 #85 5 years ago

    The PS2 chip removed because of cost. When the PS3 was announced they said it will be fully compatible with PS1 and PS2 games. Then just before the Japanese and USA launch they did say the PS2 chip will be removed on later models in the console cycle with software will run almost all the PS1 and PS2 games. Now out of the blue the european PS3 has the PS2 chip removed (while the current import ones still has them) and the software will only run a few PS2 games and may not be 100% perfect. Sony also said they will not be adding many PS2 BC to it, that's poor as the PS3 was intended to be fully BC. We pay the most in the world for a PS3 £425 compare with US £310 and Japan £260 and we have less features. Sony should have just waited till they produce the software to work most of the PS2 games before removing the chip on the PS3s. After all they said about the 360 BC being rubbish, the PS3 BC is now worse.

  • spongebob #86 5 years ago

    Sometimes it would be wiser to not tell the truth.. No one in their right mind would like what the Sony guy said. If the hardware was limited due to costs, it most definitely should affect the consumer price. Of course, it's never that simple, but when you say it out loud, every consumer will be going apeshit if the price remains the same.

  • OhWiseOne #87 5 years ago

    They have to tell people it has been stripped out, otherwise it would be misrepresentation when it was eventually sold....

    God they are idiots, why give it the big un' only to retract it later.

    RIP Sony

  • in5ane #88 5 years ago

    This might cheer some people up: I cancelled my UK PS3 pre-order! I was thinking about getting one for PS2 BC, and region 2 DVD capability, but screw it.

    The guy at Gamestation seemed genuinely shocked, and it took him over 15 minutes to give me my £20 back. He said that if I did this there was 'no way' I could get my pre-order back to play the PS3. I asked if It was still OK to play on my Japanese console I've had for months that was cheaper. He got a little arsey after that.

  • quantumsheep #89 5 years ago

    "The guy at Gamestation seemed genuinely shocked, and it took him over 15 minutes to give me my £20 back. He said that if I did this there was 'no way' I could get my pre-order back to play the PS3. I asked if It was still OK to play on my Japanese console I've had for months that was cheaper. He got a little arsey after that."

    That actually tickled my funny bone that did, especially the 'arsey' bit ;)
    Edited by 2 at 26/02/07 @ 15:06

  • Skeletor #90 5 years ago

    Seems Sony is saving $27 by not including the emotion engine in the EU PS3!
    http://ww w.isuppli.com/news/default.asp?...

  • Psi #91 5 years ago

    arsy? i'd clip the cheeky fucker. give me my money back you cunt.

  • Steroyd #92 5 years ago

    iSupply is as reliable as a frikken analyst, only Sony knows for certain how much a PS3 will cost them to manufacture, they're the ones losing the money.

    I wonder how limited this B/C will be they're keeping the Graphics Synthesizer so I wonder WTF will the end result will be.

    And will any future games i purchase be compatible.
    GAH!! This is why i hated MS's method of Software B/C emulation don't care if the few titles that do work look better.

  • playgen #93 5 years ago

    The actual cost of the emotion engine won't be very much, any chip that gets fabricated in such huge numbers after all these years won't be expensive anymore, the cost of development was taken care of years ago, it's just the actual cost of manufacture now.

    I don't know why they didn't do the two versions of the console here, 20gig with no emotion engine, and the higher priced 60gig with full backwards compatability, surely that would have made more sense.
    Edited by 1 at 26/02/07 @ 15:43

  • SeesThroughAll #94 5 years ago

    GAH!! This is why i hated MS's method of Software B/C emulation don't care if the few titles that do work look better.

    Well, when MS did that, I can believe it wasn't as much of an issue, since the original XBox wasn't quite that popular anyway, making it safe to assume that most potencial costumers didn't care that much about BC. But with the high sales of PS2 hardware, and high attach-rates, Sony had added responsibilities. And just bailed out on it.

    The actual cost of the emotion engine won't be very much, any chip that gets fabricated in such huge numbers after all these years won't be expensive anymore, the cost of development was taken care of years ago, it's just the actual cost of manufacture now.

    The manufacturing of the EE chip that goes into the PS3 should be expected to cost a bit more than that for the PS2 slimline. They're not the exact same, since the former needs to be integrated into the PS3 board, requiring a slightly different process.
    Edited by 1 at 26/02/07 @ 15:46

  • Lother #95 5 years ago

    John Doe will buy the PS3? Oh no he wont, not at 600 euro. At 600 euro even John Doe isn't a diehard sony loyalist and will tell sony to go FUCK THEMSELVES. This has been proven in the US, where people are generally accepted as being MUCH more stupid than in Europe. If stupid americans wont shell so much for a PS3 then less stupid europeans wont either.

  • Garulon #96 5 years ago

    "I wonder how limited this B/C will be they're keeping the Graphics Synthesizer so I wonder WTF will the end result will be."

    If they're just emulating the emotion engine, chances are BC might be okayish (50%-60% of titles optimistically), but you can forget about any upscaling or AA like wot the 360 does. Worst of both worlds then!

    "Except I believe they will retain their market leader in Europe at least, there are too many Sony loyalists,"

    Everyone said that about JP and US as well, and both regions are ignoring the PS3 so hard it might as well blink out of existence. Sony are on the verge of a death spiral with the PS3, every third party game is coming out on the much much cheaper and technically equivalent 360 or getting the PS3 version shitcanned altogether. Moreover, near enough every third-party's game dev lead is the 360 platform, so you know those launch ports where the PS3 version chops out online, knocks down the textures a bit and bleeds frame rate compared to the 360 version? That's here to stay.

    _I_ always thought the PS3 would hold it's own mainly due to brand awareness and the huge existing library of PS1/PS2 games, but Nintendo's put paid to the first point (now when people talk about consoles they're aware there are some that don't have the word "PLAYSTATION" on the top) and Sony themselves have knocked out the second, for $27 a unit. Well done idiots!

  • FlamingCarrot #97 5 years ago

    [link url=http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37833 ]http://ww w.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?...[/link]

    Oh dear, oh dear. Its time for your new favourite band "Console Death Spiral"
    Edited by 1 at 26/02/07 @ 15:49

  • Garulon #98 5 years ago

    I prefer FLAMING Console DEATH SPIRAL, meself.

    "Hmm, it's rike a fine dining experience. OF BROWFISH!"
    - "Krazy" Ken Kutaragi

  • The-Bodybuilder #99 5 years ago

    >"Agreed. EG don't seem to have any opinion on this issue one way or the other, despite the fact the public clearly does. "

    I'm sure shinji's got an opinion on this. :)

  • Steroyd #100 5 years ago

    If they're just emulating the emotion engine, chances are BC might be okayish (50%-60% of titles optimistically), but you can forget about any upscaling or AA like wot the 360 does. Worst of both worlds then!

    I'd assume higher rate than that doubt it'd be THAT crippled they're still using SOME hardware afterall.

    Got to remember Sony nailed it with the PS1's software emulation on the PS2 slimeline so i have hope when the B/C list pops up, and it's been said from the beggining that Sony was going to use a mixture of software and hardware emulation it's just lovely timing that they picked the PS3's Euro launch, plus the SCEE director or whatever saying "oooh look at our shiny new PS3 games you won't want to play any PS2 games"

    Tell that to someone whose yet to buy God of War 2 and Rogue Galaxy.

    Don't think this will just be exclusively for Europeans either you can bet your ass that Sony will do the same cost cutting scheme with the latest Jap/US models.

    <a href=http ://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/767/767810p1.html>Speak of the devil</a>
    Edited by 1 at 26/02/07 @ 16:03

  • enzima #101 5 years ago

    I guess some will say the Inquirer is actually owned from Microsoft?

  • cyber_nicco #102 5 years ago

    Uhmm, the last thing I want to be is a Sony apologist, but I think it's wrong to focus too much on the "why aren't they doing this to the Americans?" aspect of this.

    I can't imagine Sony won't do the same thing to American and Japanese units soon. If I'm wrong, however, then I would really be shocked at Sony's attitude towards the European market.

    That being said, removal of this feature is just one more reason to not want a PS3...

  • Garulon #103 5 years ago

    "Got to remember Sony nailed it with the PS1's software emulation on the PS2 slimeline"

    Yes they did, except the PS1 is a much much simpler beast to emulate than the PS2, and even when the only thing you have to worry about is emulating EE, the EE is still a crazy-ass asymmetric vector-list based design. The GS _has_ to stay in the PS3 as it doesn't have a bus with the kind of bandwidth the embedded DRAM in the GS has; ironically the XBox 360 would be more suited to emulating a PS2 entirely in software than the PS3 is.

  • cyber_nicco #104 5 years ago

    I just figured this one out...

    They're doing this to promote their new launch bundle. Now to preorder one needs to purchase a 60gb PS3, a 4gb PSP, AND a PS2 - all for the low introductory price of 1,000 GBP. If you act now, the package includes 3 games - Super Monkey Ball Deluxe for the PS3, Super Monkey Ball Deluxe for the PSP, AND Super Monkey Ball Deluxe for the PS2!!!

    Or something like that...

  • krokomkiller #105 5 years ago

    Lol If I´d ever wanted a PS3 I would be really pissed now.

  • SentientNr6 #106 5 years ago

    Well I didn't care about BC on the 360.
    I don't care about BC on the PS3 either.

    Still I am glad I am not one of those people who waited for a PS3 cause it could play all PS2 games.

    Let's hope when the PS4 will be announced the hype will be a bit less.

  • Skeletor #107 5 years ago

    @SentientNr6
    Well, if fucking shit up like this becomes a habit chances are pretty good that there won't be any PS4...
    Edited by 1 at 26/02/07 @ 17:12

  • kangarootoo #108 5 years ago

    @mkreku

    This is a bit old, I've only just got to this thread.

    "And because it's false mathematics."

    Are you actually suggesting that Sony Computer Entertainment got their sums wrong, whereas you (with no actual costing info from them) have got them right? I would give them a call if I were you. Save them a lot of titting about and make yourself a tidy bundle in the process.

  • cyber_nicco #109 5 years ago

    Watchdog notified...

  • ronuds #110 5 years ago

    Why are people trying to defend this move by Sony? My favorite is, "who cares about BC?" Obviously some people do. Who cares about the x button on the controller? Maybe some people don't, but I'd bet a lot of people do also.

    The point is that Sony is trying to lessen their costs, but not passing those reductions on to you. Not to mention that they're pulling this BS move at the last second, AFTER most of the pre-orders had been taken. Then, on top of that, they're not releasing the BC list until the day the ps3 goes on sale.

    If you don't feel those are 3 glaringly horrible business practices staring you in the eye, then I would never want to do business with you. "Who cares about BC" has nothing to do with this at all.

  • Calgon #111 5 years ago

    I can see Ken Kutaragi preparing a speach now for the press...

    "Historically Europeans LOVE being F'd in the A so to speak, they were asking for this"

  • smelly #112 5 years ago

    "If they're just emulating the emotion engine, chances are BC might be okayish (50%-60% of titles optimistically), but you can forget about any upscaling or AA like wot the 360 does. Worst of both worlds then! "


    Uh? The 360 does software emulation SO it can do upscaling and AA, etc etc.

    Why should the ps3 be any different?

    Software emulation needs a fast cpu... and that's one thing the ps3 DOES have...

  • Calgon #113 5 years ago

    smelly: I was going to point out that Cell isnt the most flexible of CPUs, thats one of its downsides and could make something like emulation impossible. However its probably more similar to the EE than most other modern CPUs so they might not have such a hard time.

    Ive read posts from someone claiming to be working on Sony's BC, rather than the 360 way(releasing a new exe for every game, probably due to the vast differences in architecture), the PS3 is a more traditional "all-in" emulator so it might be a quicker way to get the number of titles up but with less improvements such as AA and scaling to high-res(although they may find a solution for this and afterall PS2 games were hardly the most demanding out there). If you are bothered by this, the most annoying thing would be the lack of information from Sony, why wait till launch to release the BC list? why not shed some light on what you can expect from their software emulation solution? Because of this people can only assume the worst case scenario: a) There arent many games on the list yet b) There arent any 360 like improvements to be seen... c) Its not very stable at the moment.
    Edited by 1 at 26/02/07 @ 19:18

  • Tomnd #114 5 years ago

    its amazing, all sony have to do is say we have chosen to replace the hardware solution with a software solution, this will be updated over time to support more of the playstation back catalog. But noooooooooooooooo. They have hired the worst market spin doctors in the industry.

  • AOFanboi #115 5 years ago

    To those saying this isn't a big deal - it is, for two reasons:

    1) Back when the PS3 was presented at E3 last year, SCEA bosses were ridiculing the software BC of the 360, because Sony had "real" BC in the embedded PS2. Since we now know that the "real" BC was just a temp fix until they got the software emulation right, SCEA were lying through their teeth. Not a good sign of professionality. (That, and confusing Norwegian and Dutch on the "won't reveal until launch day" European BC page.)

    2) The PS3 is an expensive kit. People buy expensive things if its features add up to a justification for the purchase. Remove a feature (98% BC replaced by a "selection" of PS2 titles), and you reduce the incentive to buy, the justification of the expense. I want to replace my ageing PS2 with a new box, not having to have both there.

    So: Yes, Sony, the PS3 IS expensive. It is so expensive I'll be replacing my PS2 with a cheap PSTwo, and waiting for the rumoured new XBox 360 with bigger hard drive and HDMI output.

  • enzima #116 5 years ago

    @AOFanboi
    I know its the wrong thread, but you seem to know something about it: what is the advantage of having the hdmi output? I understand the excitement about the 120 GB hard-disk, but what´s to gain from the hdmi? A better audio signal? Is it an improvement over component? Dont tell me 360 early adopters are gonna be screwed.....

  • spongebob #117 5 years ago

    HDMI is the best way to connect your HD capable console to a HD TV.

  • AOFanboi #118 5 years ago

    HDMI = digital video like DVI, though with that HDCP (hi-def content protection) poo added. In principle you need a much higher quality cable to get a 1920x1080 picture using component than using HDMI. Though my current TV can only display 720p max... but it's the principle that counts. (The principle should perhaps be to shun HDCP but hey.)

    Oh, and in my case the advantage is that I have a vacant HDMI port while my TV's component inputs need a looking at because I fail to get a picture either with my PS2 or my DVD/HD recording thingamabob.

    A few rumour links:
    [link url=http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EEVkFZZpFk DjNuJhIR.php
    ]http://ww w.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/...[/link]
    http://ne ws.softpedia.com/news/HDMI-port... (same grainy image)
    http://ww w.engadget.com/2007/01/05/the-s... (Better image, and it's the more reliable Engadget)
    Joystiq follows up Engadget's story: http://ww w.joystiq.com/2007/01/05/the-se...

  • monkey-ken-wizard #119 5 years ago

    Bash the bad Sony!

  • Tomnd #120 5 years ago

    Mainly cos HDMI is tho only standard that will carry the hd dvd/ blu ray encryption standard. The idea goes that you won't be able to watch in proper hi def unless these secure cables are used.

  • JediMasterMalik #121 5 years ago

    There are plenty of fantastic games for the Wii? You sure?

  • Mythikyle #122 5 years ago

    Ah,..At last! Did you know a Ps2 wil fit inside a Ps3 (well just,if you remove all that other stuff)..BC, She is now.

  • Mythikyle #123 5 years ago

    Ah,..At last! Did you know a Ps2 wil fit inside a Ps3 (well just,if you remove all that other stuff)..BC, She is now.

  • 3william56 #124 5 years ago

    *sigh* They really do want to try our patience, don't they? Couldn't really care about PS1, but personally think it's a very bad move to blow the PS2 BC, because it was an ace in the hole to get the PS3 over the early lack of quality software. Done with Resistance and Motorstorm etc? Fine, fire up God of War 2 or the latest FF, let alone go back to the classics like Ico and SotC. But doing it without at least telling us what the impact is, and which titles will work, is really weak.

    I'm sure they'll get back to near equivalence with the emulator eventually as per 360, but that'll be when there'll be lots of shiny new PS3 titles to buy, so won't be such a benefit. Should really have waited until the emu is fully specced.

  • GitSomE_UK #125 5 years ago

    PS3 will not be bought for a loooong time even if MGS4 comes out. I can't justify spending that kind of money for 1 game, a limited BC, NO RUMBLE and a lot of maybe ware.

    I'm very happy with my 360, My PS2 is still doing well and I'm looking to get the Wii in a couple of months... the PS3 has nothing for me.

    Sony can stick there console, I had the cash for you but now I'll protest about the latest shafting with my wallet.

  • rogermellie #126 5 years ago

    What I don't understand is they could've removed B.C. from the 20GB model and kept the B.C. for the 60GB version.

    At least that way they save money on the lower end version and the customer still has the choice/incentive of buying everything on the premium one.

  • jamespo #127 5 years ago

    Come off it - as if a lot of you were even considering buying a PS3 shortly after release anyway.

    I'm not and neither are you so stop f**king moaning.

  • Garulon #128 5 years ago

    @Smelly:
    "Uh? The 360 does software emulation SO it can do upscaling and AA, etc etc.

    Why should the ps3 be any different? "

    Because the 360 is a "pure" software emulator, it's emulating the GPU as well (unlike the PS3, which is software EE but hardware GPU) which means the 360 draws onto a 720p buffer rather than a 480p one. The PS3's hardware GPU output _could_ still be upscaled at scanout, but Sony and scaling, Eeecchhh...

    @Calgon
    "rather than the 360 way(releasing a new exe for every game, probably due to the vast differences in architecture), the PS3 is a more traditional "all-in" emulator "

    After a bit of digging around the 360 BC emulator, I know there's only one emulator executable that's ran for all emulated games. The original idea of having a "precompiled" executable downloaded per game was what Microsoft were thinking way back when, but they figured out a way of just-in-time recompiling x86 on the fly to PPC. They still hand-certify though (basically throw a disk in and play it for a bit), which is time-consuming. They also don't emulate at the DirectX level, but at the bare metal at all times.

  • Calgon #129 5 years ago

    Garulon: Ah thankyou, well this particular Sony employee told it this way(I was aware of his bias since he beleives his team has higher percentage than MS on BC already... I'll beleive that when I see it, they wouldnt wait till launch to announce that) and I remember MS saying as such so thats were the confusion came from. It does explain the seemingly strange choices of BC additions though, they probably arent choices at all in most cases. By reading some of the early comments by Sony it seems they are planning on a full software approach eventually so expect a similar announcement for the GS sooner or later(not many people were expecting any changes so soon though so for their own sake it should be fairly functional come the Euro launch or there will be even more back-lash).

    Backwards compatibity is just a nice extra to me, Ive yet to buy any next gen system so I cant comment on the state of the 360 or Wii BC sitution(although Wii is so similar to GC that it was pretty much garanteed a higher percentage). I have noticed that 360 BC has a number of my favourite Xbox games missing from the list, it would be nice to see them on there soon and perhaps this will encourage MS to focus on the ones sort after by Xbox fans(they will try extra hard if they can make Sony look bad and vice versa... this is why we say competition is a good thing for gamers).

  • Garulon #130 5 years ago

    No problem - glad to help

    "By reading some of the early comments by Sony it seems they are planning on a full software approach eventually "

    They have a problem doing the GS in full software - the GS has 4MB of embedded DRAM that it can communicate with at 48Gbyte/sec. The PS3 doesn't have bandwidth like that ANYWHERE between either CPU/RAM or GPU/RAM.

    Ironically, the XBox 360 has 10MB of eDRAM that it talks to at 80Gbyte/sec, making (in theory) PS2 emulation possible on the 360 hardware.

    This is what happens when you forget about the GPU and just go shopping at the last minute, Sony!

  • mike_mgoblue #131 5 years ago

    If you want to compare the Playstation 3 to the Wii and the Xbox 360, then just go to this website and look at this excellent three-minute video that talks about the poor performance of the Playstation 3:

    http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=R98qC0fd_1w

    This is a very entertaining and informative video that presents a LOT of facts from a very simple point of view!!!
    Edited by 2 at 27/02/07 @ 15:42

  • Calgon #132 5 years ago

    They have a problem doing the GS in full software - the GS has 4MB of embedded DRAM that it can communicate with at 48Gbyte/sec. The PS3 doesn't have bandwidth like that ANYWHERE between either CPU/RAM or GPU/RAM.

    They probably wont need 48Gb/s(if they do theres always compression algorithoms and perhaps Cell might be used in some way... not sure how meaningfull those internal bandwidth claims would be here though), remember its only 4mb we are talking about(it was never really enough which is why devs had to cut corners to utilise it properly and framebuffer effects were never PS2s strong point), the only major advantage that brought about was in pixel fillrate alone(this halved for every texture layer used which meant pixel fillrate was at a disadvantage when at Xbox level textures) and you can bet PS3 has more than the PS2 atleast... the GS was very basic compared the the NV2a in the Xbox which brought alot of features with it, most effects came from the EE on the PS2(hail the "untapped potential" and think what GC and Xbox games could have looked like with as many man hours invested in this area). Im sure this would make it more difficult but it's certainly doable(although if its too difficult they might just leave it in there as its cheap and they arent all that bothered with BC anymore).

    Ironically, the XBox 360 has 10MB of eDRAM that it talks to at 80Gbyte/sec, making (in theory) PS2 emulation possible on the 360 hardware.


    Where did you get 80GB/s? The 10MB of eDRAM will come into its own sooner or later, first party devs should already be starting to use it in their new engines. It has 32GB/s for the external bus and 256GB/s internal which is available to the ROPs and internal logic on that die.
    Edited by 5 at 27/02/07 @ 23:07

  • Garulon #133 5 years ago

    "Where did you get 80GB/s?"

    Sorry, that should have been 80Gbits/sec, I originally wrote 10GB/sec then changed it so it matched the PS2's speed units.

  • floppylobster #134 5 years ago

    This is not a problem because of the massive price reduction Europe is getting over the US.

  • Carrybagma #135 5 years ago

    I'd say this is the action of a company desparate to make cost savings on their console, and I'm sure the other territories will soon get the 'new improved' model. What's the latest esimate on how much Sony lose on each PS3 sold? IMO this has nothing to do with Sony 'Fscking you up the A', I think they're in a tight spot and they know it.

    Yeah. The thing hasn't even completed it's worldwide launch cycle, yet the accountants have got to work on it already. This will mean a fight between the designers and the accountants, as the accountants seek to strip stuff out and use low-quality parts, whereas the designers try to maintain their ideal. The result will be regional variation, reliability issues and a marketing department paralysed by fear of decision-making. They're in trouble alright. Microsoft has got away with flogging low-quality parts for the past year or so, so maybe the PS3 is arriving just in time for the backlash.