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Epic "defrauded" industry, alleges Dyack News
Xbox 360 News by Robert Purchese
Silicon Knights boss Denis Dyack has alleged that Epic "defrauded" an entire chunk of the games industry when promoting Unreal Engine 3.
He claims the four-year development period for Too Human was so long because Epic was misleading about what Unreal Engine 3 could accomplish.
"[Too Human has] been a four-year development cycle and it would have been out even quicker, but we had to re-write the engine because of all the Epic stuff," Dyack told Develop.
"The trial is proceeding; we feel really good about our claims, and we're hopeful that justice will be done. We all feel really strongly that they have defrauded us, and a major portion of the industry."
Silicon Knights took legal action against Epic Games in July 2007, accusing the company of failing to deliver development kits in a timely fashion, not providing enough support, and focusing too much on Gears of War.
Epic said there had been plenty of access to SDKs, and deflected attacks by claiming Silicon Knights had shown Unreal Engine 3 to unauthorised parties. Epic also claimed SK used the engine to make a game for SEGA, breaching the terms of the licensing deal.
Too Human is due out across Europe on 29th August. You can expect our review very soon.
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"[Too Human has] been a four-year development cycle and it would have been out even quicker, but we had to re-write the engine because of all the Epic stuff," Dyack told Develop.
Yeah and I suppose someone else was to blame for the development cycles slipping on the Playstation and Gamecube too... Perhaps I'm getting a little bit too cynical in my old age, but this seems like a perfect 'any problems with the game at release are someone else's fault' excuse in the making. |
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Okay, so Epic lied about what its engine ccould do. Let the trial deal with that.
Too Human needs to be amazing. It doesn't matter that they had to rewrite an engine and redo code etc. I believe no-one sets out to make a bad game but if it doesn't work, it's no fault of Epic - they just didn't pull it off... |
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rhinoxious
18/08/08 @ 15:48
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Technical issues on a game can mean that time and effort gets diverted away from design, playtesting and balancing though.
Still I think it's a legal matter, and not really of interest to anyone else. |
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The Bodybuilder
18/08/08 @ 15:50
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I have a feeling Dyack's legal proceedings, though initially filled with promise and hope, may just be a big let down.
Kinda similar to an SK game coming out soon, but not quite sure which one it is. |
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AphoticCosmos
18/08/08 @ 16:01
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Dyack: Blah blah blah blah blah I'm a self-important self-aggrandizing dick who likes to spout rubbish whenever a mic is shoved in front of my nose?
World: Liek d00d nobody caers!1!? Too Human will be a fail. I lol at the $100 million wasted on that game. Most expensive flop in the industry's history for sure. |
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kuddles said:
'I think there is probably some truth to Dyack's claims. I mean, every PS3 game to date, including those Epic makes themselves, has almost identical technical issues, like framerate hitches and texture pop-in. Still, at this point I feel he's going overboard in his public statements.' FIXED! |
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If you look at the trouble other games that started development on UE3 pre-Gears had - Rainbow Six Vegas had to fall back on a heavily modified Unreal 2, for instance - I think Dyack has a point. Even Gears has dozens of bugs and technical shortcomings like texture pop-in despite being patched three or four times.
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BillyBrush
18/08/08 @ 17:07
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If Epic just released Unreal2 the awakening and Silicon Knights just released Twin Snakes then all the gamers out there would be saying how Epic are a bunch of noobs and Dennis is the second coming of christ...
courts don't work like fanboys, they'll be a bit more rational, so let's see what they decide, there are plenty of 3rd party unreal engine games that don't seem to run as well as Epic's (maybe they're just best with their own engine), a fair few of them had lots of texture pop in and v sync issues what i'm trying to say is if Too Human is bad (the right stick combat doesn't do it for me) , that doesn't equal Epic right and Silicon Knights wrong...i don't have a clue what SK might have up their sleeve, but if they prove for example that Gears had lots of tech in it that wasn't being made available to 3rd parties, and he can prove it, then he might just have a lawsuit case
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"courts don't work like fanboys, they'll be a bit more rational, so let's see what they decide, there are plenty of 3rd party unreal engine games that don't seem to run as well as Epic's (maybe they're just best with their own engine), a fair few of them had lots of texture pop in and v sync issues "
Gears of War had this too though, didn't it? I distinctly remember starting one or two levels and watching the textures take a few seconds to sort themselves out. And the framerate wasn't that fast either, come to think of it.
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The legs to Dyack's case are that there are actually no shortage of excellent programmers who can vouch for the fact that Epic effectively wrote UE3 around their own project Gears of War. Adding features that suited their internal development game instead of delivering the features promised to their license holders. Though most dev houses using UE3 now seem to be satisfied with it. If dragged into court I doubt many of them will lie about the features being delivered late and in an incomplete state at the time of Dyacks complain.
It will be interesting to see what happens from here on out. |
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"http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=316...
C- aight dennyboy..." A bad review on 1Up? Pretty much a strong recommendation, then. |
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@Duffking
quote : "I'd be a bit more sympathetic if he didn't come across as such a ginormous cock." See, but in posting that it's YOU that's looking like a huge cock. Come back when you own a game studio and have made some great games.. until then, you have no right at all to be blasting people you dont know - just because you feel "safely hidden" behind your keyboard. |
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Collymilad
18/08/08 @ 21:28
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Smelly.
If someone is a prick, they are a prick. Doesn't matter if they have a studio, and you don't need to have one yourself to give an opinion. It's like these people who say "well, you make a game first then you can slag off their game" - no, sorry - but you don't have to be able to do what someone does to say if their work is crap or not. It's the same kind of situation |
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@Collymilad: This isn't about judging games. It's not about judging people. It's about law. If you're not a lawyer your opinion on this case is as worthless as mine.
But if we're judging people - and you started it - I think I'd rather trust the bloke who actually cares about what he's doing, knows the legal situation and has a huge amount invested in it, than some anonymous keyboard warrior who'd call someone else a prick because it's easier than actually doing anything in any way constructive ever. You can voice all the opinions you want. Until you're worth listening to your opinions are fucking worthless. Keep spewing them out all you want. No-one cares. |
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Mentalist(air)
19/08/08 @ 07:26
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I may not have owned a game studio, but I have worked in one, and on the Unreal engine, so I think I can speak with some experience on this issue.
It's never been any sort of secret that a generation of Unreal technology is never actually ready until Epic's own first game that uses it is completed (Unreal 1, UT 2003 and Gears of War, respectively). It's a situation that many development teams have had to deal with - either patch the holes in the bought technology or wait until they're patched for you when Epic make a commercial release. They might not advertise it as such at GDC or whatever, but it would be a pretty naive developer who would not have suspected this was the case. Besides, Denis Dyack seems to have form for throwing blame around recently. Remember how the bad demo at E3 2006 was Microsoft's fault for forcing them to show it too early? |
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@Mentalist(air)
So because Epic are known for releasing dodgy tools, until they update them whilst making their own game, thats ok? Surely as a sw developer you would not accept that as an excuse! Dev studios pay Epic a lot of money for that license and if they sell you short then they are in the wrong. Yes this Dennis guy seems like a bit of a dick (and the game a bit pants from playing the xbl demo) but he does have a point. Maybe everyone should switch to the ID engine :-)
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@sneech & uncle lou:
wait for the eurogamer-review, smartass :) http://www.eurogamer.de/article.php?arti... ^^eg-germany 7/10 reads like a 6
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hiddenranbir
19/08/08 @ 11:27
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Their fault for using the UE3 engine. It isn't that amazing and Epic did make it sound as if it was the dog's bollocks. It was, but in a literal sense. It's a good engine but not as great as Epic made it out to be.
As for the demo, I enjoyed it and look forward to the full release. I am a patient gamer that managed to get the best out of the different combat scheme. It is, infact, really easy and effective. No longer am I mashing buttons to pull off combos, instead I'm just directing where I want to attack and voila! |
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Mentalist(air)
19/08/08 @ 12:22
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So because Epic are known for releasing dodgy tools, until they update them whilst making their own game, thats ok
It's been OK enough for Ubisoft, 2K, NCSoft, EA, the US Army and plenty of others to use the technology, and continue to use it for subsequent projects. I suspect that it may be Epic's defense that they knew what they were getting in for, or could have found out early enough to cancel their license without having spent too much time trying to build a game based upon it. Early builds might be ropey, but they're stable enough to allow development work to be done, and you get a lot of toys to play with - essentially an entire game (including multiplayer networking code, which is one of the biggest pains in the arse to build), and then some. |
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Also speaking from personal experience with the Unreal 3 Engine, I will say that support tends to dry up when Epic go through critical phases in development. I.e. coming up to big milestones they drag everyone off the engine team and stick them on game dev. Any questions you email to the support email list tend to fall on deaf ears at Epic. That's generally not a huge problem though because someone else from one of the other dev studios also on the list will probably answer instead. The Ubisoft guys tend to know the engine inside out.
Having said that, it only happens every now and then for a short while and the rest of the time you get direct responses to your questions from the likes of Daniel Vogel, Tim Sweeny and even Matt Reign on occasion, so I wouldn't call their support bad. It does puzzle me though why Silicon Knights found this to be such a huge problem and all the other studios didn't... |
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Still, if your product slips because you were promised support for a tool you paid good money for you should be entitled to speak out about it. Maybe he is just being a little bitch (the Unreal engine has been proved to be one of the best game dev tools around) but we don't know what silicon knights relationship with Epic was like. I bet it was better than it is now though!
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