E3: Hawk: Natal "not accurate enough"

By Robert Purchese Published 3 June, 2009

He tried. Prefers plastic skateboard.

Tony Hawk doesn't think too much of the new Xbox 360 motion-sensing camera and will happily stick to his plastic skateboard thank you very much.

"We actually tried to get [Tony Hawk: Ride] running with a camera, but it wasn't accurate enough," Hawk told MTV Multiplayer. "Plus you can't really do ollies, grabs and flips when you're just standing on nothing."

Hawk's board peripheral has in-built accelerometers as well as sensors that judge hand and foot movement off of the deck. Players aren't required to match moves exactly, but tricks like manuals (wheelies) and 180 spins can be fully recreated in living rooms.

The Xbox 360 motion-sensing camera was unveiled during Microsoft's E3 conference and demonstrated by overseer-with-the-glasses Kudo Tsunoda. But our friend Peter Molyneux from Lionhead stole the show unveiling Milo & Kate, his top secret camera-game that has unnervingly impressive interaction with a little boy using the new Project Natal Xbox 360 tech.

Head over to our playtest impressions of Project Natal and the Xbox 360 motion-sensing camera to find out more.

That's not out until next year, whereas Tony Hawk: Ride with peripheral will be out this autumn. We've written our feet-on impressions of Ride, too, because we're work-obsessed.

Picture of Robert.

About Robert Purchese

Bertie is Eurogamer's Senior Staff Writer. When he's not hunting down news stories he's often found playing with his kids or gabbling about fantasy games and strange online worlds.

Read more articles from Robert by visiting the Robert Purchese archive page.

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Comments (61) Latest comment 3 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Dizzy #1 3 years ago

    Buy my stuff says guy selling stuff.

  • JahB #2 3 years ago

    of course he prefers the plastic skateboard. if natal worked after all, nobody would buy the long dead skating franchise with his name on it

  • AaronTurner #3 3 years ago

    Wait, he says "a camera", not specifically Natal.

  • stevethemeat #4 3 years ago

    That proves it Natal is shit, you know it when a well respected developer like Tony Hawk says so

  • kangarootoo #5 3 years ago

    So the skateboard part of the PR movie was mocked up?

    Well bless my cotton socks, who would have thought it.

  • kangarootoo #6 3 years ago

    "You're not even good at skateboarding anymore so I should believe you about games?"

    Nice ad hominem, well done.

  • Les #7 3 years ago

    "So the skateboard part of the PR movie was mocked up?

    Well bless my cotton socks, who would have thought it."

    Some would call that lying...

    For the record, I don't. ;)
    Edited by 1 at 03/06/09 @ 10:44

  • menage #8 3 years ago

    Well, seeing as MS made his board obsolete in the same presentation I can understand him saying that. But his board is even more dangerous than a real skateboard imo, I haven't got a big HDTV in front of me where I can crash through on the town square.

  • Wastelander #9 3 years ago

    It sounds like they originally tried a camera peripheral, not specifically NATAL, which from what I've heard only first and second-party devs have known about for only a couple of months.

  • AphoticCosmos #10 3 years ago

    Poor guy got upstaged in a single fell stroke. Can't exactly blame him.

  • Triggerhappytel #11 3 years ago

    Shock Hawk endorsing his own product over competitor's!!

    Or, what Dizzy said.

  • Reihn #12 3 years ago

    You've expanded my vocabulary, thanks! (Also, well called..)

  • stevethemeat #13 3 years ago

    Comming later, sony says their purple headed wand ejaculates all over natal.

  • Vistrix #14 3 years ago

    What was the skateboarding demo about then...?

    He has a point with it not being accurate enough, its suited for particular games though.

  • spazmo #15 3 years ago

    ...and suddenly the xbots form a motion control defense force. Lol! What a great E3 this has been.

  • Domovoi #16 3 years ago

    He's not likely to say "Yeah, the peripheral I'm selling is cool but the other thing I'm not selling works just as well", is he?

    Also:

    "Plus you can't really do ollies, grabs and flips when you're just standing on nothing."

    So why don't you just stand on a skateboard when using Natal then? It'd be even cheaper than buying a motion sensing pseudoskateboard.

  • Les #17 3 years ago

    "Well, seeing as MS made his board obsolete in the same presentation I can understand him saying that."

    Why would he care about what controls will be used in the game that wears his name, other than the quality of those controls?!

    If the camera was tested and approved, the game would be cheaper (smaller cost, better profit margin) and arguably be able to reach a larger audience due to the lower cost. Unless he owns the plant that makes the plastic things, he would probably earn more when the camera would be used (assuming that some kind of variable compensation is included in the endorsement contract).

  • JahB #18 3 years ago

    If the camera was tested and approved, the game would be cheaper (smaller cost, better profit margin) and arguably be able to reach a larger audience due to the lower cost.

    wrong. the camera would probably not be sold by ubisoft, so there'd be no win in there for ubi. but with a plastic peripheral that costs next to nothing to manufacture and that they can sell on for at least 20-30 quid, their profit margin increases quite drastically

  • Beek4257 #19 3 years ago

    @spazmo

    ...and suddenly the xbots form a motion control defense force. Lol! What a great E3 this has been.

    Of course, 'cause the only thing xbots ever really wanted to do for all those years, was to be able to play LAIR by flapping their arms.

    And Lol of course.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #20 3 years ago

    He has a point with it not being accurate enough

    No he doesn't, all he knows is 'a camera' isn't accurate enough, according to the people making the plastic skateboard game who tested it.

    It might be accurate enough. We, and Tony Hawk don't know either way, yet. It seems to me that you could potentially make a far better skateboard game with full-body mo-cap, than you could with a stand-on plastic tilt sensor.

  • kangarootoo #21 3 years ago

    I would imagine Tony hawks doesn't give a rats ass about the fanboy issues that everyone here seems concerned with. If they tried a system similar to Natal, and it didn't work so well, why would they stick with it?


    "So why don't you just stand on a skateboard when using Natal then?"

    Really? I can think of one answer to that question. Clue: it involves not owning a skateboard.

  • Wastelander #22 3 years ago

    The chances Robomodo or even Activision have even seen the Natal system before the conference are practically zero.

  • rprince #23 3 years ago

    You spelt Molynoire's name wrong...

  • Les #24 3 years ago

    "wrong. the camera would probably not be sold by ubisoft, so there'd be no win in there for ubi. but with a plastic peripheral that costs next to nothing to manufacture and that they can sell on for at least 20-30 quid, their profit margin increases quite drastically"

    As far as I'm aware, the plastic things don't really contribute much to the profitability of the peripheral games and are generally manufactured as cheaply as possible to keep the profit margin within an acceptable range. Which is also the reason why the 'genre' plays host to so many expansions that basically recycle the game with some cheap new content but without the need for a new peripheral.

  • Les #25 3 years ago

    "Really? I can think of one answer to that question. Clue: it involves not owning a skateboard."

    I can think of another: Things with wheels that you can stand on generally don't work that well within the living room.

    "It seems to me that you could potentially make a far better skateboard game with full-body mo-cap, than you could with a stand-on plastic tilt sensor."

    True, but Natan isn't full body mo-cap: it analyses an image rather than track objects through a 3D space.

  • Domovoi #26 3 years ago

    Really? I can think of one answer to that question. Clue: it involves not owning a skateboard.

    You don't own Tony Hawks magic peripheral either, so that's obviously not the problem. And a normal skateboard (or even just the board part, sans wheels) would be cheaper than the Tonyboard.

    I can think of another: Things with wheels that you can stand on generally don't work that well within the living room.

    Hey, I just had this amazing revelation. Turns out you can just take the wheels off, because there's no actual rolling involved when playing this game.

    Christ.
    Edited by 1 at 03/06/09 @ 11:15

  • woodnotes #27 3 years ago

    He says "a camera" not "the camera". Natal isn't just "a camera"

  • Darren #28 3 years ago

    Hawk's statement reads like a rehearsed endorsement for a new peripheral. After all he's hardly going to sing the praises of Natal for his new game if it works as well or better than the peripheral when said peripheral is a good way for the publishers to milk more money out of people buying the game.

    Not that I care, the Tony Hawk's games went all craptacular post-Underground and I stopped buying them years ago. I can't see that this new game will reverse the declining trend myself, I suspect the inclusion of the skateboard peripheral is designed to make people think the game will be more fun and better than it actually is as well as to attract the kind of people who bought Guitar Heroes and Wii Fit, etc. We'll see... I'm not holding my breath though...

  • owl #29 3 years ago

    you know what?

    have some laughs.
    Edited by 1 at 03/06/09 @ 11:28

  • Les #30 3 years ago

    "Hey, I just had this amazing revelation. Turns out you can just take the wheels off, because there's no actual rolling involved when playing this game."

    Yeah, that would really go down well with the non-skateboarding public... And for some reason I expect such a set-up to result in quite some broken fingers...

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #31 3 years ago

    True, but Natal isn't full body mo-cap

    You missed the full-body mo-cap demo then? And Ellie's report on it?



  • Wastelander #32 3 years ago

    "it analyses an image rather than track objects through a 3D space."

    It can track objects through 3D space. Check out the zcam demos.

  • Les #33 3 years ago

    "You missed the full-body mo-cap demo then? And Ellie's report on it?"

    No. There's a reason full body mo-cap uses multiple camera's, tracking the little dots from all angles. Natan only has a single camera and can't cope for example with body parts or objects that are obscured by other body parts/objects.

  • kangarootoo #34 3 years ago

    @Domovoi

    So instead of having a peripheral dedicated to the game in question, people should go out and buy a real skateboard AND THEN take the wheels off with a spanner?

    Of course, how silly of us to think that would be a ridiculous thing to suggest to the average punter. I guess the only question remaining is are they going to put these awesome suggestions on the back of the box or in the paper manual?

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #35 3 years ago

    Erm doesnt the natal have 2 cams on the front to give a human eye perception?
    Edited by 1 at 03/06/09 @ 11:48

  • Wastelander #36 3 years ago

    Why would you even need a skateboard at all, isn't that the point?
    You jump, it jumps. you spin 360, the man on the screen 360s, you jump and flick your foot as you would IRL and the man on screen does a kickflip.

  • menage #37 3 years ago

    @Les

    Well, MS themselves put him on stage and right after that they show a a better (in their opinion off course) control method for motion. i didn't think the board was that hot to begin with but after seeing that natal boy "riding" a skateboard it didn't make sense at all. But seeing as this forum is full of fanboys i will probably get flamed for even insinuating anything here (not directed at you Les, just in general). I just think it was kinda pointless to have a heap of gadget motion stuff in the beginning and then upstage them by showing something that will make them useless in the future.

    Oh, and I still don't like waggle, with or without a stick.

  • Dizzy #38 3 years ago

    "Natan only has a single camera and can't cope for example with body parts or objects that are obscured by other body parts/objects. "

    Is has 2 different types of cameras.. but yeah.. ofc it can't track stuff behind you. Then again.. software can make assumptions about what you are doing behind your back, just like a human brain ;)

    Anyway.... it is indeed not a classic motion tracker.... it basically builds a 3D map of everything it "sees" and then releases powerful algorithms on it to try to make sense of it all. BTW the devices has a build in chip to do that (probably a DSP)
    Edited by 1 at 03/06/09 @ 12:01

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #39 3 years ago

    There's a reason full body mo-cap uses multiple camera's, tracking the little dots from all angles

    Actually a number of cinematic motion capture and motion control systems use only a single camera these days. I was quite surprised, actually, but that's what they featured on the making of programme for the new Red Dwarf stuff on Dave.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #40 3 years ago

    To be fair to the Tony Hawk game people, you'll actually able to play their game this year.

  • consignia #41 3 years ago

    Erm doesnt the natal have 2 cams on the front to give a human eye perception?

    No. The second camera only captures infrared information for mapping depth.

    I don't think we'll be seeing Stereopsis in consoles for some time, since it's a bit too computationally intensive to do in real time and do anything practical with the data.

  • Velios #42 3 years ago

    Heavy bastards like me would much rather jump up and down on the floor than on some plastic peripheral that might snap.

    I couldn't even buy wii fit (to get fit) because I was worried I would break the board you have to stand on.

    This camera thingy seems much better for the morbidly obese.

  • Eighthours #43 3 years ago

    They tried to use "a camera".

    Not Natal. And that's the important bit.

  • DUFFKING #44 3 years ago

    MS said they didn't sent out dev kits until the day of their conference, during their conference, so they probably tried it with a vision camera :/

  • GreyBeard #45 3 years ago

    Natal *IS* a camera-based system. How do you think it can capture an image of the player, sonar?
    LOL.


  • Wastelander #46 3 years ago

    It's got a camera and a infra-red depth sensor (the clever bit), so yeah, like sonar.

  • Darren #47 3 years ago

    Well Tony Hawk is (or was?) a pro skateboarder so obviously he's going to prefer a physical board to play a game on. However, if I was playing this game I'd rather you use the floor because jumping around on a peripheral board increases the risk of it flipping into the TV or something. At least that wouldn't happen with Natal. I hope EA make a version of Skate, which is a far better game anyway, that uses Natal to prove how utterly wrong Tony Hawk is! :D

  • consignia #48 3 years ago

    But it will just be using the infra-red camera motion sensing. It'll be better than simply a camera, but it's not going to be a whole world of difference.

  • makeamazing #49 3 years ago

    I dont think Tony Hawk is going to slate Natal because its competition to his board, I mean really, his product is coming out, no one has any ideas when Natal might be released. I would be surprised if you see it before last quarter next year, though with Sony saying they are bringing theirs out in the spring, i suspect this might make MS release it asap but with very little software to go with it.

  • Wastelander #50 3 years ago

    /facepalm from orbit

  • Beek4257 #51 3 years ago

    Tried to launch the name Dildoshock 3 (tm) myself, but admittedly PSPenis sounds way funnier.
    Edited by 1 at 03/06/09 @ 14:52

  • alsotop #52 3 years ago

    This title seems pretty misleading. He didn't say "Natal is not accurate enough".

  • DUFFKING #53 3 years ago

    Seriously though, they can't have tried it with Natal. I'm sure they said during the conference that 'dev kits for this are being sent out today.'

  • Machiavellian #54 3 years ago

    The obvious is that Mr. Hawk is talking about the regular camera and not Natal. Devs kit only released yesterday not to mention I would not put to much stock on Tony understanding the difference between Natal and a regular vision camera at this point in time. He would have seen the demo the same time as everyone else and to be honest he might not have seen it at all.

  • Linkified #55 3 years ago

    Buy my stuff says franchise whore fan

    He cried when he saw the concept video of the skating game.

  • SeesThroughAll #56 3 years ago

    The live natal demos didn't seem to use too much of accurate depth detection, to be honest. That 3D full body Arkanoid actually was using a two-dimensional body projection, and the painting demo only used 2D body detection as well.

    Reporters who played on the modified Burnout Paradise demo say that other than steering, the forward body movement detection (for simulating hitting a pedal) was a bit hit and miss. (Kotaku).

    As it could be seen by the demonstration in which the XBL avatar was supposed to mimick the speaker, actual mapping of all of the body is difficult to achieve with precision in full 3D. You all saw the laggy, twisted result.

    The "Minority Report" control scheme probably could be done with any currently available cam (either the Eye or the X360 cam).

    Come to think of that, I think SCE should update the XMB to accept input from the Eye. Can't believe those engineers who were playing with dildos didn't think of that.
    Edited by 1 at 04/06/09 @ 02:27

  • Les #57 3 years ago

    "The live natal demos didn't seem to use too much of accurate depth detection, to be honest."

    What, you make money from the Hawk board too!? ;)

  • Les #58 3 years ago

    "Actually a number of cinematic motion capture and motion control systems use only a single camera these days. I was quite surprised, actually, but that's what they featured on the making of programme for the new Red Dwarf stuff on Dave."

    Yeah, but that's cinema. With a static camera angle one camera mo-cap can lead to acceptable results (for a lower budget show). It's much cheaper than using multiple cameras of course. You don't get all the data and therefore not all the flexibility that 'proper' mo-cap would give you.

  • greenthumb #59 3 years ago

    theres a lot of people in this thread that seem pretty confident they know how Natal works and its going to be the fishes tits. I cant help but feel if it worked as great as they claimed there would have been some more live demos, like Milo on stage and not a prerecorded, edited till it looks like its working, video.... it seems like a lot of people are falling for the hype machine.

    i also dont get why people are so excited... i really dont see the difference between waggling in front of a camera or waggling with a wiimote... one is hilarious, inaccurate and for kids and the other is incredible and grown up and the future... hmmmm

  • SeesThroughAll #60 3 years ago

    @ Les: Check the link to Kotaku I gave above. I'm basing my statement on what I read around, from a bunch of sources.
    Most people are no doubt excited, but don't really buy the "revolutionary" thing.

  • Les #61 3 years ago

    @ SeesThroughAll:

    I know, I was only joking; trying to do a little parody on the IMHO crazy accusations of poor old Tony Hawk... Hence the " ;) "